Slashdot Mirror
New Galactic Neighbor
Dan Yocum writes "The Sloan Digital Sky Survey reveals a new Milky Way neighbor: a galaxy so big we couldn't see it before. A huge but very faint structure, containing hundreds of thousands of stars spread over an area nearly 5,000 times the size of a full moon, has been discovered and mapped by astronomers of the Sloan Digital Sky Survey."
Can't see the galaxy for the stars, eh?
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
Real Big
http://www.sdss.org.nyud.net:8090/news/releases/20 060109.virgooverdensity.html
Posting AC to avoid karma whoring.
I for one welcome our new dwarf galaxy overlords
What makes this a galaxy rather than just some random swirl in the cosmos? (TFA doesn't really say)... does this galaxy have a black hole to call its own in the middle? What happens if a black hole eats another black hole?
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
....and not a hybrid of globular cluster and galaxy. What makes a galaxy a galaxy?
Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
That's no galaxy...
I hate the one hundred and twenty character limit for signatures with an all-enveloping, all-destroying, incredible pass
And it's headed this way!!!!!!!
Are you...Are you some kind of genius?
No, ma'am, I'm just a regular Slashdot reader.
Pfft, I'm sure the aliens will have plenty of warning before they invade us, and how would a telescope warn the aliens bout us?
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
Could this be what's warping the Milky Way, previously thought to be Dark Matter?
Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
It's a trap!!!!
... a galaxy so big we couldn't see it before ...
I knew Orion was hiding something in that belt of his!
I hope they name it after Harold Bishop.
It's a "dwarf galaxy" and yet so big we couldn't see it before?
Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
Leela: I don't know what you did, Fry, but now all the planets in the galaxy are gonna be crackin' wise about our Mommas...
Hermes: I'm just glad my fat ugly Mama isn't around to see 'dis day...
Professor: Enough about your promiscious mother, Hermes...
hi mom!
Quite frankly this is the kind of science that the Hubble cannot do. For one, the Hubble is designed for a finer spatial clarity, hence its field of view is so tiny that surveying the entire sky would literally takes decades (if not a century).
This work instead shows how invaluable ground observatories (esp the small ones) are. It's not a super-flashy job; it's a long, time-consuming, and slow-rewarding job. But once you've done it, you get your 15 minutes of fame (actually, in this case, you may make it into the history book).
These people realize that the moon doesn't *actually* change size based on how much sunlight bounces off of it right?
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Want to find other gamers to play board and role playing game
"spread over an area nearly 5,000 times the size of a full moon,"
.5 degree
Interesting wording.
So that must mean 5000 full moons in the sky?
Moon = 1800 arc seconds
or 1800/60 = 30 arc minutes.
or 30/60 =
So what is that in degree of sky?
A fist at arms length is roughly 10 degrees.
I am not well versed in astronomy in general, but how could it be so faint we havent noticed it yet? Isint there a certain level of luminosity that is required to be a star? Could there possible be something between us and this galaxy?
This statement makes no sense. Seeing as how the moon is 4.57e^6 kilometers in area, it would be:
((4.57 * e)^6) km = 3.8846214 × 10-7 light years
in area, according to Google calculator.
Galaxies are hundreds of thousands of light years in diameter, and even multiplying by 5000 times that area yields an area of 0.00192 light years. What are they trying to say when these stars cover such a small area??
Want to a host or join a discussion network? Try basiCommunication today!
I was a graduate student at the Astrophysical Sciences deptarment at Princeton when they were planning and starting to build the SDSS. A few interesting facts:
Some very clever optics (designed by James Gunn) went into the telescope. Normal telescopes do not produce the large field of view required. There were existing specialized telescopes which did (Schmidt cameras) but they have the imaging plane in the wrong place.
The main camera uses 30 2k x 2k CCDs, cooled by liquid nitrogen. At the time (early '90s) these cost on the order of $200k per chip.
The camera works in "drift scan" mode: the telescope moves such that the images of the stars drift along the columns of detectors in the CCDs. The packets of charge are shifted along the CCDs at the same rate - so instead of producing distinct individual frames, it continuously outputs data along an ever-lengthening strip along the sky. As I recall, the data rate is about 8Mbyte/s.
The camera spends rather more time on spectroscopy than imaging. (The imaging is primarily about selecting targets for the spectroscopy.) The spectrograph does 640 objects at a time. A computer-drilled plate is (manually) plugged with fibre optic cables in the right positions for that field of sky.
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
I wonder where he got 3d glasses that make stuff look 3d in real life? I could use some of them to stop walking into walls so much!
what no pictures? NEXT!
Fascism is the greatest political ideology ever conceived. Sorry.
We've been here a while now. We did the Veni, Vidi, Vici thing, you just don't know it yet, but, yea, all your base are belong to us.
Well, now we know. Little did we know that we knew all along.
And the brethren went away edified.
Average full moon sized? At what time of year?
I prefer the fruit-distance method of measurement. I think in this case it might be equivalent to 8000 oranges at 1 meter.
"he drew his sword Ringil that glittered like ice... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds..."
thousands of stars spread over an area nearly 5,000 times the size of a full moon
... in other words this galaxy wraps around us about 4.6 times...
Well, let's see...the moon covers about 1/3 of an arc degree. 5000* 1/3 = 1666 degrees
yeh, right.
Actually, things at that distance are far less 3D to your eyes than the molecules making up the things in the picture on a flat piece of paper on the table in front of you.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
That's true, that's true... But I still want some real life 3d glasses :p... Cheapest. Invention. Ever.
Is this a distinct phenomenon from the warp in the milky way reported recently? Or just a different interpretation of the same thing? The warp would also explain the asymmetry of the galaxy as described in the article. They may be separate, but it is interesting that they were reported in the same week.
This sig is covered under the GPL.
This is like that part in the movie or the comic book, where the guy is tripping out or whatever, and he's staring into the dark void of space, and then slowly he realizes he's staring into a GIANT FUCKING EYE!
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
"We used the SDSS data to measure distances to 48 million stars and build a 3-d map of the Milky Way"
I'd like to see that 3-d map. Perhaps Google can release a version of Google Earth that you can swivel and zoom your way through the milkyway or even galaxy groups...
I still got Dance of the Planets (1989) software that does that for the solar system... hmm... I'm a relic.
www.tribalnetworks.org - helping tribal people around the world to own their own means of high-tech communications
Or it could be a big coincidence.
"before they invade us,"
Optimistic, aren't you?
Even worse, if you consider that we are the aliens, and our species has simply invaded and conquered this planet an aen ago. We adapted, survived, and destroyed our own history. If you don't understand the destroyed part of that, go to a library and read some 6,000 year old books. Assuming you knew the language, you wouldn't find the books. They're lost, damaged, and/or intentionally destroyed over the years.
We are the aliens, and our brothern have forgotten about us. We will be stuck here, alone, for a long time.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
I'm hard pressed to think of a better oxymoron...
If you post it, they will read.
I'm confused, if we are marooned aliens then did apes evolve from us?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
just like fish there's always a bigger galaxy....
If it's 5000 times the size of the moon, a back of the envelope calculation (square root 5000 times the .5 degree arc for the moon) means it's something like 35 degrees across.
"At an estimated distance of 30,000 light years (10 kiloparsecs) from Earth, the structure lies well within the confines of the Milky Way Galaxy."
I've known about this for years, thought with class 3 military drive on a Viper it takes a few 27 ly jumps to get there...
www.tribalnetworks.org - helping tribal people around the world to own their own means of high-tech communications
Did you want
/-E/ adjective
A: A cup of flower:
Main Entry: 1flower
Pronunciation: 'flau(-&)r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English flour flower, best of anything, flour, from Old French flor, flour, from Latin flor-, flos -- more at BLOW
1 a : BLOSSOM, INFLORESCENCE b : a shoot of the sporophyte of a higher plant that is modified for reproduction and consists of a shortened axis bearing modified leaves; especially : one of a seed plant differentiated into a calyx, corolla, stamens, and carpels c : a plant cultivated for its blossoms
2 a : the best part or example b : the finest most vigorous period c : a state of blooming or flourishing
3 plural : a finely divided powder produced especially by condensation or sublimation
or
B: A cup of flour:
Main Entry: 1flour
Pronunciation: 'flaur
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English -- more at FLOWER
1 : finely ground meal of wheat usually largely freed from bran; also : a similar meal of another material (as a cereal grain, an edible seed, or dried processed fish)
2 : a fine soft powder
- flourless adjective
- floury
Ok, I THINK they meant, it APPEARS, visually, to be 5,000 times larger than a full moon. Otherwise it sounds like a very SMALL galaxy.
"George Bush doesn't care about space" -- Kanye West...
Yes, see Larry Niven's Protector.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30374 New Solar System Discovered Four Feet From Earth September 25, 1996 | Issue 3007 PALO ALTO, CA--In what is being hailed as the most significant find in the field of planetary astronomy in decades, astronomers at the Palo Alto Observatory on Monday identified a new, previously unknown solar system approximately four feet from the Earth's surface....
Try:
Happily Married
Legally Drunk
Still, Dwarf Galaxy ain't bad.
Sounds an awful lot like witchcraft, if you ask me. I think we should burn you and the moon, just to be sure.
You better watch out, there may be dogs about . .
They know you're lying when you tell them "You can't see it because it's so big".
The parent post highly deserves its current +4, but this is the perfect example of an Informative comment rather than Insightful. The author clearly quoted and concisely responded to questions from the original comment, and threw in a bonus Informative link (pretty pictures included), as well as indicating the trust level of information.
This comment is the insightful one =)
-f
Thanks to commodoresloat!
I better run for cover.
Galaxy dwarfs you!
I for one welcome our not-so-benevolent ascended Ancients.
...
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
Even worse, if you consider that we are the aliens, and our species has simply invaded and conquered this planet an aen ago. We adapted, survived, and destroyed our own history. If you don't understand the destroyed part of that, go to a library and read some 6,000 year old books. Assuming you knew the language, you wouldn't find the books. They're lost, damaged, and/or intentionally destroyed over the years.
Or, we're barely evolved apes who have no brothers in the stars, and the only things supporting your imaginings are the X files and the Bible.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
You, my friend, have been playing far too much Homeworld.
I, for one, welcome our new galactic neighbors!
Do not be alarmed. This is only a test.
Book burning theories don't add much to our understanding of antiquity: Until the second or third century CE they only had parchment. Parchment was only good for a few hundred years, unless you kept it in a *very* dry cave in the desert somewhere. (And preferably made frequent backups.) The story of ancient history is that if your ideas (or you) went out of popularity, your books didn't get actively copied, and were therefore lost -- it's completely irrespective of whether anyone was actively destroying them or not. Unless you had the requisite desert caves, you needed a chisel to have any chance.
Now, for the period you're talking about -- from late stone age to early chalcolithic (named for the discovery of copper in Anatolia, ie. Turkey) -- the defining social advance was the move from agriculture to trade. The discovery of copper meant that for the first time a commodity existed for which there was no good-enough local substitute. This created the trading class as we generally think of it today -- as a dedicated service occupation; and that in turn made large cities and thus empires possible, rather than tribal towns. (It's worth asking what the supposition of alien intervention adds to this scenario, if your seriously suggesting that.)
Otherwise, if you think about the kind of writing needs such a society would have (and this is only 5,200 years ago, not your 6,000) it's fair to ask what you would expect them to write, or what, of their writings, you would find interesting to read, even if it had survived. If you want to read something within 1500 years of that time, then try the Enuma Elish or the Laws of Hammurabi (this oldest example of the test for a witch is in there -- it's an interesting read). All these docs are available online.
i get the feeling that itll be in the northern hemisphere, but in case it is in the southern, itd be nice to know. not that it could be seen, i know, just for the cool factor "hey, see that? its part of another galaxy." thing. the ladies love that shizzle.
When in an argument, people who vaguely rely on something 'scientific' they once read will persue a cycle of 'I read this scientific thing', 'what do you mean science doesn't know everything', 'are you disputing these great scientists!'. This is a manouvre by dimwits to use someone elses published intellect as ammunition for their own weak arguments.
Even with supposedly 'intellectual sciency' people like those on slashdot, you only have to subscribe and read my torrid posts with 'darwinists' (read, people who decided they like this liberal idea, so use the fact that they read one article as they know everything and it's irrefutable).
Showing that such huge discoveries can blindside us is refreshing. We landed on the fucking moon for fucks sake. Yet we have been sleeping next to an elephant of a discovery for so long.
Science is the new religion as I said. Feel all warm, superior and selfrighteous about it.
"Does my dictate good?" from an online T company. Read in a hick accent.
please type the word in this image: dictate
random letters - if you are visually impaired, please email us at pater@slashdot.org
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
We are the aliens We are the aliens No time for earthlings Cos we are the aliens Of the world
and what have you been smoking?
And as for destroying our own history - there are far more traces of civilization than written materials. Technology leaves evidence. We have found tools and weapons and such from hundreds of thousands of years ago. Anything more complex would not only survive in and of itself, but the infrastructure to create it would leave parts laying around. Don't bother talking about wars and catastrophes. Besides the fact that they don't erase everything, they leave their own evidence behind.
Sorry for the fun story, but we're natives. Our ancestors have been here on earth for over three billion years.
it's no longer funny. catch up with the rest of the world you horrible faggot.
Sorry, had to be said. Someone else probably said it first. Effers.
New Galactic Neighbor, in Japan.
... in Orion's Belt?
Fight Frist Psoting!
Browse Slashdot with 'Newest First'!
How do you fit thousands of stars into the space of a full moon. Our moon wouldn't even fit a single earth size planet let alone several thousands of stars. 8-P
Now, imagine if that was a full-sized galaxy, and we could see what it really looks like! It's a pity we didn't develop in a dwarf galaxy, with a nice big spiral galaxy filling half the night sky - that'd be sweet!
--LWM
Rubbish, everyone knows there is but one irrefutable test in the field of witch identification.
May I refer you to Father Ted:
Father Ted: Now concentrate this time, Dougal. These
[he points to some plastic cows on the table]
Father Ted: are very small; those
[pointing at some cows out of the window]
Father Ted: are far away...
Stick Men
but only in a 1 to 1 scale.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Another way of looking at this is that opacity is a consequence of the non-uniformity of water density. Water vapour is evenly spread through the air, or at least its unevenness only happens at distance scales much shorter than the wavelength of light. So there's no discontinuities to break up the light's wavefront. Fog is in droplets, which are large compared with light, so the light can "see" its non-uniformity and get reflected.
Fog is in droplets, which are large compared with light, so the light can "see" its non-uniformity and get reflected.
Well, yeah, but so is a glass of water. It's extremely large compared to the wavelength of visible light, yet the light passes right through (after a bit of refraction).
You're actually on the right track, you just have things reversed. Think: why do microscopic water droplets (fog, clouds) reflect light while an entire glass, very dense and really one huge droplet, doesn't?
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Right, which is why you can see it, and why you can use it as a mirror (a bit).
Because once you get inside the water there's no structure at the scale of the wavelength or longer. A glass of water is more uniform, at the relevant scale, than is a fog.
The light sees the boundary between the water and the air. But it can't see the boundary between two molecules of water: they're too close together. So water has a reflective edge but a transparent middle.
So the summary is:
If you think my explanation's faulty, by all means give the right one. But I'm not sure this is the right forum for Socratic pedagogy. It's probably better just to say what you think.
You wish.
Fnaaarrr!
Someone just opened the locker door enclosing our universe at Grand Central Station and we could see out. The apparent stars are the lighting inside Grand Central.
Oh I get it. You're a Scientologist, right?
Hehe.. No, I'm not. I just have some whacky ideas that I like to throw out for public opinion once in a while. At very least, they make for interesting conversation.
... well ... screwy ideas. I've known a few, and have talked with them a lot.
The truth is, short of getting our hands on a time machine, we'll probably never know much about our own history beyond the relatively recent past. The best chance we have is if an alien stops by and says "Oh ya, we've been watching you evolve for the last 10 million years." I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Scientologists have some
My biggest problem with their whole thing is that it's against their whole philosophy to consider any other options, other than what they're fed.
While talking with one friend who was pretty deep into their whole thing, I was comparing what he told me to older religions and ideas. He was rather upset, because I was effectively telling him that the scientologist concept isn't really theirs.
There was a scandal a while back, where some of their higher books were taken by a high ranking member, who then made available to the general public. It's against their rules for someone of a lower level to read higher level books. I feel that no one should believe in something, unless they are as informed as possible. Where they go through the very costly system that they have, and it's mandatory (arguably by them), the whole thing is marketing ploy. Then again, what religion isn't out to make a buck?
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Good choice of references.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
There's a classification of galaxies known as Malin-type, which refers to their being at the extreme end of low density and luminosity. Malin-types can be spiral and a thousand times larger than our own Milky Way (LOL!), yet only have a few million active stars within; little is known about these supergiants, but the fact that they do organize themselves into spiral structures and that most of their mass is spread so thinly that it has not and maybe cannot create pockets of concentration that will achieve critical mass. These are, in a way, stillborn supergiants.
Here's a nifty little mystery: Malin Spiral Giants rotate extremely slowly, and given their size, it turns out they take eons to complete a single rotation; in fact, they may have rotated only a handfull of times since their inception. Considering the relatively young age of the Universe, how did such slow-moving monsters organize themselves into such sophisticated structures as spirals in the limited timeframe?
At the other end of the scale, Malin-types can be dwarves with only a few thousand active stars. Most probably, there are also "average sized" Malins, but I've never come across any literature on that. In any case, they are incredibly difficult to detect and just as hard to study even if you know exactly where they are.
If this newly discovered galaxy is a Malin Dwarf, we have been presented with a golden opportunity to learn a ton and a half about an obscure (as in virtually unknown, so there's no pun intended) yet extremely important type of celestial structure, since Malin-types may account for a considerable percentage of MACHO (Massive Compact Halo Object) dark matter that makes up the Universe. Also, there is a lot of mass in those babies that is exactly the way it was back in the early days of the Universe.
In fact, Malin Dwarves may be the most common type of galaxy out there, think about it: what's the most common object in our fractally-scaled corner of the cosmos, the Solar System? Low mass and/or low density asteroids and comets.
This newly discovered galaxy may be considered the intergalactic equivalent of a comet.
Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty