Chess for Kids?

cyberbian asks: "My six year old daughter has recently expressed an interest in chess. We have been playing a few games, but I fear that I'm not the best teacher for such a venerable game. Is there any software that the Slashdot community would recommend for learning the mechanics and structures of good chess?"

Comments

Kids' chess set

[Wespionage]

I can't say much about software for kids -- my daughter is five and just starting to show an interest, but hasn't started to try to play yet. But I can remember, when I was a kid, I had an instructional chess set that had fairly simple plastic pieces with all the moves for each piece embossed on them.

Something like this (links directly to an image).

I can remember, even at a young age, my younger brother and I playing together because we could at least shuffle the pieces around without worry about remembering all the rules. Certainly, this doesn't say much for teaching strategy, but I think it could still be a nice set for just keeping the game fun for kids, especially if your daughter might want to play with her friends who might not be as interested by the game.

Re:Kids' chess set

[damiam]

My parents got me one of those and I hated it. It took maybe a week for me to learn how each piece moved (and the set wasn't very helpful; the instructions on the pieces were hard to decipher). After I learned the basics, the extra instructions were mostly useless to me, and I thought the pieces looked clunky, ugly and juvenile. I'd have been much happier with a nice, professional-looking, standard chess set.

Each to his own, I guess.

Re:Kids' chess set

[Wespionage]

I would agree with you, if you're the kind of parent who takes the approach that if the child has any tools or toys that can enable some independence then you shouldn't participate with them at all. I was assuming, from the submitter's question, that he/she already had some interest in playing chess with his/her daughter and teaching her the rules.

I think there is an added benefit (at least there was for me) to having a chess set that lets a child include friends who might not have the benefit of someone having taught them the game, or even of getting to play with a younger sibling. For me, it helped it feel more like a game and less like a lesson.

I see little difference here between chess and cards for a six year old. Both are fun and rule/strategy based. You could take the time to immerse your kid in the rules every time they want pull out a deck of cards, but you could also give them a pack of cards to just sit there and shuffle through, or play war with once in a while, without having to worry about strategy and more complex rules.

But also, if you're concerned that having your child just play with the board and pieces, or play with people beneath his/her skill level, will be detrimental for his/her later chess tournaments, then you have a different agenda altogether and it's probably better to spend some money on a tutor.

Personally, I was happy to think that the game was both challenging and kinda fun at that age. But then again, I'm sure there were enough times where I had a chess piece sticking out of my mouth or was busy making the neighing and fighting sounds for the knights.

Re:Kids' chess set

[EngrBohn]

My son took up chess in November. To help him remember the moves I drew the possible moves for each piece on a sheet from engineering pad. We saw a set like that in a nearby store shortly before he got interested but couldn't find it again before he grew out of the need for that a couple of weeks later. We since picked up a couple of "Chess Teacher" sets for $5 each on after-Christmas discount and donated them to his school. The sets we found had hollow plastic pieces that squeeze-fit into the bases. If the child doesn't need the help, the bases can be removed.

chessmaster

[flogic42]

The chessmaster series has good tutorials at any level.

Re:chessmaster

[Jazzer_Techie]

When I was in elementary school, our chess club used Chessmates to help younger players learn. It's a Win 9x piece of software, but it is great. It has 10 levels of play, easy being really easy and hard actually being pretty tough. More importantly, it has great tutorials illustrating various tactics. There are animated characters who guide you through the various skills, complete with puzzles, and when you master something it generates a nice printable certificate. (Example: to illustrate a fork, a handsome prince has to choose between saving a damsel in distress and a treasure chest from a dragon. May sound a bit silly, but it's really effective. And throughout the program Wigby the Wizard can give hints and help.) It's a great program for younger kids.

Re:YEAH I GOT SOME

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean GO_OUT~1.EXE, QUIT_A~1.DLL and PLAY_A~1.COM.

People are better teachers

[Cyphertube]

I don't know where you live, but I'm sure that your six year old is not interested in sitting in front of a programme as much as sitting with people. You may not be the greatest chess player ever, but I'm sure you're more social than the machine.

If your child starts to beat you regularly, then it's time to start finding new opponents. There are some places where people do actually meet and play chess. Take a look around. See if anyone you know plays as well.

Starting to look for software right away is similar to using the television as a babysitter. Yes, the child will learn something, but will also not learn plenty of other things.

Re:People are better teachers

[BoredAtWorkWhatElse]

The parent has a point, however if YOU want to learn how to play chess so you can teach your daughter better you can try ChessMaster. Great software for both the beginners and the experts, many tutorials, quiz, challenges, games with audio commentary (by Chess Master Josh Waitzkin).

Maybe not the best software for a child but definitely a good one for a grown up. And like the parent said, for now you're still the best teacher there is for your daughter =)

Re:People are better teachers

[VaderPi]

My father and I used to play often when I was little. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I was probably about 8. My father taught me how to play and payed enough attention to make sure that I did not cheat. He also tried to point out why some of my moves were not wise.

Even with the advice that he gave me, I am not sure that he ever went all that easy on me. Beating my father was my ultimate goal whenever we played. He would try to explain to me why I lost each time, turning the defeat into a lesson. I do not remember winning until I was at least 14. I lost the game right after that, however. :)

Now, my father is no master chess player, and for that matter, neither am I. But I think that I learned more from having him teach me than I think I would have learned from a computer. I also think that he taught me how to gracefully handle defeat as well.

The only thing that my console games taught me about defeat, was that I felt a lot better when the controller hit the wall. Damn you Pitfall. You drove me to break more Atari controllers. :)

Looking back, I am really fond of the time that I spent playing chess with my father. I bet that your daughter will as well.

Re: People are better teachers

[cyberbianMom]

As the mother of said "six-year-old daughter" who truly has initiated an interest in chess (all on her own), I feel the need to weigh in on this discussion. First, we are aware that people are better teachers. I am a qualified teacher and we know the importance of socially mediated interactions. It is reassuring to know that if a cyborg-parent lacking in the ability to teach through modeling and zone of proximal development, that Slashdot readers would be ready to stay them on the humane track. However, I did not think Slashdot was the forum for advice on how to interact with your children. When seeking out the best chess software for kids, it must be said, I would definitely consider Slashdot the place to go for solid software advice. Being the incredibly hip, socially progressive crowd, I would also expect leading edge advice that encompassess accessibility, platform independence, and overall usability. Thanks to all of you who did provide that.

ObGoPost

[Anonymous Coward]

Kids often find Go easier to learn, as it has fewer rules and you can play a simplified version of the game (on a smaller board, or first to capture 5, etc) that is still a meaningful introduction to the strategy.

You

[pizzaman100]

I would say that unless your kid is some kind of chess prodigy, the best teacher is you. A little quality time between parent and child is of more value than a program or even a tutor, and your kid will appreciate it more.

Easy Question...

[gasmonso]

The best chess game of course is Battle Chess http://www.dosgamesonline.com/index/game/Battle%20 Chess/30/

http://religiousfreaks.com/

Re:Easy Question...

[rsd]

Yep. I know a lot people started playing and learning chess with Battle Chess.
They just wanted to see the peaces ripping each other appart.

Even without knowing how to play they learned by try.

Later it came Battle Chess 3000 and then Star Wars Battle Chess or something like this.

Today there is Chessmaster 10 which has a kid module that teachs a kid how to play with full 3D animations.

And there is Majestic Chess. That was created by the original author of Chessmaster and has a really interesting adventure game to teach how to play chess. Really interesting even for advanced players. here is a Review.

And with Dad

[IAAP]

You may not be the greatest chess player ever, but I'm sure you're more social than the machine.

Plus, she's spending time with Mom or Dad. That's more important than anything. She'll progress in her own time.

Good introductory game -- Smess

[BobTheWonderMonkey]

As a child I learned a game called Smess (The Ninny's Chess) first. Check out ChessVariants for information. It's a great introductory game that gets you started thinking along chess lines. The transition from Smess to Chess is relatively simple to make, even for a child.

Give it a try!

the game may only be part of it.

[nocomment]

I have a sneaky feeling that the game may only be part of it. The rest being, doing something with her daddy.

Spend time with your child

[RingDev]

I would hazard a guess that what you daughter is actually showing an interest in is spending time with you. She would probrably be just as interested in working on your car, pulling cable, wood working, etc... if you were doing it with her. And besides, Quality time > chess skillz.

-Rick

join a chess club?

[wardk]

they are all over. 5 year old chess is huge. most schools have one, or a neighbor school will adopt kids from other schools.

most chess software quite honestly sucks, especially getting it setup to challenge a 5 year old without discouraging them by getting slaughtered over and over.

hello :-)

[dragons_R_scary]

hi i am a 16 year old kid who learnt to play at the age of 8 .... i learnt by my dad teaching me the basic rules then playing against real people (useing an internet chess program) i found that i learnt more off the net than i did off a computerised program. so after you have taught your kid the basic rules you might want to set up something like yahoo or something :-)

Learn as you teach her

[JamesTKirk]

I'm an intermediate chess player, and I'm currently teaching my 9 year old son to play.

You should teach your daughter yourself, rather than look for chess software. She'll be able to ask you questions as you go, and it'll be quality time that you can share with her.

I don't know what your level of chess knowlege is, but you could read some books to pick up the basics of tactics and strategy so that you're prepared to teach her. If you begin by teaching her the mechanics (how the pieces move and capture), by the time she's ready to learn basic tactics (pins, forks) and strategy (control the center), you should know enough about these topics that you'll be able to teach her.

I would recommend two classic books for any beginner to read to pick up the basics:

Chess Fundamentals http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1857440730
Lasker's Manual of Chess http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486206408

These are both considered essential reading for anyone interested in grasping the basic concepts of chess. If read these these (or any other) books on chess strategy, you'll be prepared to teach your daughter for at least a couple of years, and you'll improve your chess as well. If you get to the point where you are unable (or unwilling) to continue studying, and your daughter starts beating you regularly, then she will probably be ready to start reading on her own, or you might want to consider a chess coach at that point.

Amateur.

[Orrin Bloquy]

1. Install Monsters Inc. Jr. Scream Team Training as administrator.
2. Log 5 year old daughter in as herself (no admin privs).
3. Run program.
4. Get "no disc" error.
5. Run program as admin user.
6. Get "no disc" error.
7. Log in administrator.
8. Game runs.
9. Uninstall game.
10. Log in as daughter.
11. Run installer as admin user.
12. Run program.
13. Get "no disc" error.
14. Run program as admin user.
15. Get "no disc" error.
16. Tell daughter she's adopted.

My daughter taught herself chess this past summer

[caouette]

This past summer, my daughter (then 6) decided she wanted to teach herself chess. So we found this site http://www.chesskids.com/kidzone/index.shtml. Within a couple of weeks, she had learned the basic moves, and rules.

Now, she's in the Chess Club at her school, and while she is definitely not the best player out there, she really enjoys the game.

Teach her yourself

[Laxitive]

I'd echo the sentiments of others. Teach her yourself. It's far more important that she be learning from someone she is comfortable with than from some random chess teacher guy, or a soulless program.

One thing I've found works well when playing chess (or for that matter, go) with kids is this: interact with them during the game. I don't refrain from talking with them about the game AS it's progressing. Most of the time their strategy is going to be really naive and short-term.. but that's ok. I grin and say things like "oh, you're not getting away with that!" and respond to their moves. If they're about to make a particularly obvious error, I ask if they're sure they want to make the move (and if they want me to, I'll explain why they shouldn't). Also, if I'm setting up some particular attack, I give hints along the way about what they should be worrying about. That way, I don't have to dumb down MY game, but I don't easily defeat them either (which is no fun at all). As time passes, they'll require less and less of your helping hand when making their moves.

If you're successful in achieving that comfortable, interactive environment, you'll find that your daughter really responds to you. It becomes less of a combative game and more of a shared adventure, a little mini-storybook, and that's when kids show the most interest and learn the best. The important thing is to achieve a nice balance between completely disconnecting yourself from interacting with her (professional chess player attitude) and boring her by making it into a lesson instead of a game. Make jokes, have fun, and look at the experience as a way to get some insight into the way your kid thinks. Give her hints and advice when she needs it, leave her alone when she's trying to figure something out herself. Remember, you're playing chess WITH her, not AGAINST her.

If she picks up and runs with it, then she'll figure out how to proceed after she goes past your limits. If she doesn't, then that's fine too, but you got to spend some good quality time with your kid and that's worth a lot all by itself.

-Laxitive

Re:Teach her yourself

[JohnFluxx]

The "play chess with her, not against her" strangely doesn't have any suitable word for that style of gaming, however in go it's "shidougo" which translates to basically teaching go.

A random google search found: http://senseis.xmp.net/?TeachingGame

Re:Teach her yourself

[Laxitive]

That's really interesting, since I actually learned that style of play when I was learning go. It's a very enjoyable approach to the game, where you're ostensibly opponents, but fundamentally it's more about exploring the game space than beating the other guy.

Anyway, I brought that approach back to chess, and I find it works really well when you're playing with kids: really provides a fun and relaxed atmosphere.

-Laxitive

Re:Fritz and Chesster

[Fhqwhgadss]

I have found software from Chessbase (Fritz, etc) to be pretty demeaning to women. In response to moving the queen for the first time in Fritz 7, for example, the opponent replied (audibly): "A woman's place is in the kitchen." I have read reviews (can't find them now, though) that Fritz and Chesster have similar comments, especially in the multimedia sequences and that these cannot be skipped. So unless you want your daughter being repeatedly told how inferior they are, or your son exposed to such sexist views, I would stay away from F & C. If you're just looking for a means to keep your kid quiet for long periods of time without bothering you, I've heard that F & C is great.

As far as the instruction goes, you would serve your kids far better by teaching them yourself, over the board. It's a lot more fun for you too. As long as you can teach the very basics of piece movement, you should be good enough. If you feel the need to suppliment with software after teaching the basics, there is great tactics software for all skill levels; Chess Tactics for Beginners and CT-Art from ChessAssistant come to mind. Teaching strategy with software to a young child, I expect would be a lost cause, though I haven't tried that myself. You're better off learning that yourself or using a professional chess instructor. Jeremy Silman has some good books if you're up to the task of learning yourself. Otherwise call (or visit!) your local chess club and ask for referrals for a good instructor. They may have some sotware to recommend, but will add expert instruction and recommend how to use the software effectively.

My Success and Chess Clubs That Suck

[Chagatai]

My father and a good neighbor began to teach me chess when I was about four years old. It was one of the best things they could have done for me. My brothers followed suit and soon we all played together. I am doing the same thing now with my three year-old daughter. I show her how the pieces move, their names, and I praise her even when her pawn moves halfway across the board, two squares over.

As I got older, there was a chess club in junior high that had a tournament. I remember being late the first day and beating my opponent before just minutes after sitting down. By the end of the weeks of play, I won and got a nice handmade walnut board with my name on it that I still use for games.

When I became a junior in high school, there was another tournament in the neighboring town. I decided to go and try winning again. But, a big surprise awaited me. Most of the kids in the tournament were not from our local towns, but had travelled from miles away in the city to play. They were all part of a club, with their nice blue hats and specially made t-shirts that made them look more like Special Olympians than chess players.

Their coach was this man in his forties who looked like he hadn't showered in weeks, instead living, eating, and breathing chess. He was completely obsessed with the velvet ropes used to cordon off the players and the amount of talking. Keep in mind that he was yelling at eight year-olds about this, which shows low class on his part.

I sat down from this fat, smug kid who lay there like a blob with his arms crossed and his hat pulled low. As we played, it was clear his experience trumped mine, but he was a complete ass about it. "Hey," he said, "Is 'checkmate' a hyphenated word?"

"I don't think so," I replied. "Why?"

He moved a piece on the board. "Checkmate," he said with a smug, shit-eating grin.

"Tell me, is 'asshole' a hyphenated word?" I said in a slightly loud voice. Greasy-haired coach told me to be quiet. My drive to go off on him was barely abated. I left soon thereafter.

In the end, I found that while chess clubs can be good places to learn the art, I prefer good old dad and my brothers playing against me. I hope my daughter will feel the same when she gets older.

As for the greasy chess coach, well, he was put in check himself and was arrested for suspicion of sexual assault on a minor.

Chessmaster requires admin privileges to run!

[rmcd]

Chessmaster is a terrific piece of software, with one very important caveat. It absolutely has to be installed and run with administrative privileges. If you don't want your kids running with administrative privileges, forget Chessmaster. (There is supposed to be a workaround involving symbolic links from the kid's home directory to the administrator's, but I never got it to work.) Talk about brain-damaged software design!

I own Chessmaster 9000. I was told by Ubi tech support that the same issue exists with Chessmaster 10.

Chess for Girls

[jayrtfm]

Chess for Girls SNL video

Majestic Chess

[eugaet]

I'd recommend Majestic Chess, if you can still find a copy. It includes a story-driven 'chess adventure' that teaches the basics of chess by working through a series of challenges. My 5yo likes playing it with me quite a bit.

So long as you're involved in her learning experience, I don't think it matters too much whether your kid learns chess sitting across from you at a real chess board or in a chair next to you playing through the software.

Re:Fritz and Chesster

[Fhqwhgadss]

Here's a link to one review of Fritz and Chesster that has a vague mention of the jokes. Another review specifically mentions fat jokes.

I haven't personally used F & C, but I have heard the offensive banter of Fritz 7 first-hand. It's really in poor taste. As far as why no-one cares, that's easy. The world of chess is dominated by men, almost to the point of exclusion. Girls are not encouraged to play serious chess. At my local chess club I've seen precisely one female player out of dozens of players I've seen there. The only female player to ever get any traction in the "men's" league is Judit Polgar. All of the rest play in the league that is specifically for women. Hell I've even seen insulting emails posted online by GMs lambasting a strong player for trying to attain a GM title part of which said that the WIM (Women's International Master) title was not even a possibility, let alone a "real" title. Chessbase's "news" articles are especially awful. More often than not, you'll see exactly 0 articles discussing women in chess on the front page. If there are any, it's more likely to be a tounament that includes both men's and women's divisions, or glamour shots of Alexandra Kosteniuk, than a serious piece.

Perhaps I was quick to judge F & C as having sexist content, but given Chessbase's modus operandi, I'm not going to find out by sitting my daughters in front of it.

GNU Chess

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

GNU Chess is a great program, especially if you're like me and keep losing all your pieces.

I had this one back in the dawn of time, when we had OS2 on a dual boot with 3.11, before I even knew what dual boot was. Hours of fun. On the higher difficulty settings the computer simply cannot be defeated!

At least, I think it was GNU Chess. It looked exactly like it.

I know the experience

[SeanDuggan]

The last time I went on a trip with the chess club, they had a hotel manager throw them out of the lobby because they were trash-talking too loudly. He said that there was one thing he couldn't stand and that was chess nuts boasting in an open foyer.

Thank you. I'm here all week and Joe's grocery down the road has a special on rotten tomatos, so stock up.

Re:Except..

[Abcd1234]

Go is cool, except the baroqueness comes out in (1) the scoring (2) all the rule subvariants about time, scoring, ko/superko, etc.

I humbly disagree. :) No child needs to know the intricacies of ever Go ruleset. Just pick one scoring system (Japanese is probably simplest), regular ko (superko is interesting, but certainly not worth introducing early on), and don't even both teaching byoyomi. At this point, Go has a mere handful of rules, and no wonky special cases (aside from Ko), as opposed to Chess with it's 6 pieces, all with different properties, not to mention a variety of more obscure rules.

It's probably easier for a kid to estimate winning/losing in a game of chess.

This is certainly true, and is difficult for even experienced amateur players. OTOH, children are little sponges and can catch on to such things remarkably quickly. Moreover, early on, it's rarely necessary to be able to accurately count score, since games aren't typically that close.

Frankly, I think both games have something to offer, and which to play is really more a matter of taste.

In the end, I think the biggest problem with teaching Go is finding cheap, quality equipment to play with. While you can makeshift a Go board pretty easily, getting at least a cheap wood board + plastic stones can be surprisingly difficult.

Uniformly bad advice

[figa]

There's a lot of bad advice on here. It's great that your daughter wants to learn chess. I have two daughters, 3 and 7, and I'm teaching them the game. My younger daughter asked to play with me this morning (she mostly just sets up the pieces).

First, I'm disappointed that so many posters assumed that there's some hidden meaning in your daughter's interest. I can say from experience that, when my daughters don't feel like playing chess, no promises of quality time will get them near the board. I think it's fair to assume that your daughter is genuinely interested, which is great. Also, if she's interested in chess, don't be afraid to teach her chess. Go is a great game, but there's no reason not to teach her chess.

Over the board play is best for learning chess, as people suggest, but I've found that it's not always the best way to interest my older daughter in the game. I bought Fritz and Chesster, and she enjoys working with it over working with me. It does a great job of breaking down the game into practical lessons that are fun to play. It may be a bit advanced for your daughter, but I think it's better than using Chessmaster on the easiest level. I have noticed that it's geared toward a male player and a lot of the humor is distinctly Teutonic, but I didn't find it particularly offensive. I think it's probably all you really need for software until she's a tournament player, and it's reasonably priced. I even caught my wife working with my daughter when she got stuck on the king and rook mate. My wife never gets involved in over-the-board games.

I'd also say that, contrary to what others are writing, chess is not easy for a parent to teach, nor is it an easy game in any sense. It's difficult to play on the same level as your kid if you're at all good, my older daughter doesn't want to play with a handicap, and she as soon as she makes a few opening moves, she gets bogged down and confused. I've had some success setting up chess mazes for her, where I sprinkle pawns on the board and she has to move pieces through the pawns. I've also had success getting her interested in puzzles. I can't blame you for looking for ways to supplement her learning.

Don't just buy any chess book. Most chess books, even beginner ones, are written for an adult audience, and you'll have to translate what you're reading into lessons that are appropriate for a kid. Plus, for the poster that recommended Lasker's Manual, it's in descriptive notation. No child or parent should have to deal with descriptive notation. Make sure any book you buy is in algebraic notation.

I can't recommend beginner books for children from my experience, but Chess for Juniors and How to Beat Your Dad at Chess are universally acclaimed. I got my daughter Simple Checkmates, and she's able to work through it on her own. Kudos to the person who mentioned Dan Heisman. His Novice Nook columns are a great resource for beginning tournament players, and he's the author of A Parent's Guide to Chess. He does online tutoring, and I have a friend who is an online student of his who recommends him highly. I haven't read it, but Susan's Polgar's instruction book might also be of interest. She's one