Gay Guild Recruitment Disallowed From WoW?

Fireball394 wrote with a link to an article on the site 'In Newsweekly'. The article, entitled "Blizzard of GLBT gaming policy questions", discusses the application of a harassment warning on a player who was recruiting for a GLBT guild. From the article: "In her follow-up letter to the company, Andrews explained that there was an obvious misunderstanding and that she was not insulting anyone, but merely recruiting for a 'GLBT friendly' guild. The response from Blizzard was, 'While we appreciate and understand your point of view, we do feel that the advertisement of a GLBT friendly guild is very likely to result in harassment for players that may not have existed otherwise. If you will look at our policy, you will notice the suggested penalty for violating the Sexual Orientation Harassment Policy is to be temporarily suspended from the game. However, as there was clearly no malicious intent on your part, this penalty was reduced to a warning.' Blizzard's stance was clear that recruiting for a guild using 'GLBT' was inappropriate as, the company said, it may 'incite certain responses in other players that will allow for discussion that we feel has no place in our game.'"

Comments

Okey dokey

[voice_of_all_reason]

This cannot possibly backfire in any conceivably way.

Way to go, clowns!

Re:Okey dokey

[TikiTDO]

Actually they are really acting within the best interest of most of the people involved. If you go out of your way to create a 'GLBT' guild and advertise it for all to see, then you, and your guild members are certain to become prime target for the rest of the server that are not quite as ok with the alternate sexuality as the guild members.

I'm sure if such a person wanted to create a 'GLBT' guild they could go to one of those forums mentioned in TFA and announce it there, having the effect of reaching a large fraction of the people they wanted to reach while keeping those who have no business with it out. Anything else is just asking for pure grief from the vast majority of the community.

When you consider how many players blizzard may have lost had such a guild come to exist, became publicized, then had all of the members harassed versus the few they will lose over this announcement you should see where I'm coming from.

Re:Okey dokey

[SatanicPuppy]

That's a nice way of putting it. As a longtime gamer, I can say with assurance that there is a LARGE segment of the MMORPG player population who would not react with maturity and tolerance...I'm not saying that they're bad people, or that they'd necesarrily act that way irl, but when you add in anonymity and the kind of sexual purience you get out of highschoolers (who tend not to react well to stuff like that because they haven't really grown into their sexual identities bla blah), you're bound to get some ugly scenes.

Re:Okey dokey

[pomo monster]

Hmm... maybe I misinterpreted you, but it sounds like you're agreeing that if there's a problem here, it's not with the folks who want to start an LGBT--it's the puerile kids who haven't yet learned how to function in society. So the question is: why is Blizzard supporting the latter instead of the former? I'm guessing because there's a lot more of the latter, and a lot more, to Blizzard, means a lot more money.

Re:Okey dokey

[snwcrash]

But shouldn't people be able to freely associate regardless of what others might like to think of them? I mean it's their choice to be open about it or not.

Re:Okey dokey

[Onan]

Actually they are really acting within the best interest of most of the people involved. If you go out of your way to create a 'GLBT' guild and advertise it for all to see, then you, and your guild members are certain to become prime target for the rest of the server that are not quite as ok with the alternate sexuality as the guild members.

How kind of them to have our best interests in mind. I wonder if they extend the same courtesy toward black players, banning them for disclosing their race in order to protect them from racists?

Re:Okey dokey

[tsm_sf]

Blizzard has a LONG history of turning a blind eye to assholes and jerks, simply because they're a large portion of their fan base. Every time I reload Diablo 2 I'm reminded of why I remove it; "oh yes, I'm surrounded by scum".

I'm just not sure that there's as much mischief to be made out of this as Blizzard seems to think. What are they going to do, call them fags? Oh noooo.

Braxor begins to cast Bruised Feelings.

Re:Okey dokey

[pomo monster]

And if you were principal of a middle school, you'd ban LBGT student groups for the same reason--their existence invites harassment and denigration from the rest of the student body, causing more problems than there would otherwise be. Even though it'd all be the fault of other students, not the LGBTs.

I hope that's not actually what you would do as principal. And I hope that's not what you'd do as Blizzard's CEO, even though I can understand why you would.

Re:Okey dokey

[Kadin2048]

I'm guessing because there's a lot more of the latter, and a lot more, to Blizzard, means a lot more money.

Yeah, pretty much.

I think Blizzard is also taking the "don't make waves" style of law enforcement. That is, a certain amount of antisocial behavior is allowed, as long as it doesn't rock the boat, so to speak. And conversely, your right to say whatever you want is going to be conditional that it doesn't cause a problem in their pretty little world.

WoW is a lot like Disneyland. It's a part of the real world, and yet it's not. It's all quite fake and intended to create the an illusion (in Disneyland, an idyllic place to take the kids; in WoW a world where you can take on an alternate persona and hack at people with swords) which people pay for the priviledge of experiencing. The Disney folks are probably not going to let you burn the American flag in front of EPCOT Center -- even though it may be your right to do somewhere else -- because a whole lot of other people who are paying to be there don't want to see it. Likewise, Blizzard isn't going to let you set up a GLBT guild, because a lot of other customers would dislike it. (And I suspect they have a fear of being portrayed as a place for perverts in the Conservative media, which could cost them a lot of customers; there are still a lot of people for whom "gay" is synomous with "pervert" or "pedophile," especially in regards to interaction with their children.)

I admit, it's not very fair. However, WoW is essentially a private playground, and they can do what they like in there. Anyone who doesn't like the rules can take their membership fee and go home.

Re:Okey dokey

[Rei]

That's actually a good standard to apply. One should look at something that they're doing considering GLBT people and replace the word "gay" with "black", "homosexual" with "african-american", "gay culture" with "hip-hop culture", etc, and see if what you're stating sounds horribly racist. If it does, don't do it.

Re:Okey dokey

[Rei]

To apply this in more detail, I've "translated" part of the article.

Original poster: OZ [the name of her guild] is recruiting all levels. We are not 'Non-caucasian only,' but we are 'Multicultural'!

Blizzard: While we appreciate and understand your point of view, we feel that the advertisement of a "non-caucasian" guild is very likely to result in harassment for players that may not have existed otherwise. If you will look at our policy, you will notice the suggested penalty for violating the Racial Discrimination Policy is to be "temporarily suspended from the game". However, as there was clearly no malicious intent on your part, this penalty was reduced to a warning.

Blizzard's stance was clear that recruiting for a guild using "non-caucasian" was inappropriate as, the company said, it may "incite certain responses in other players that will allow for discussion that we feel has no place in our game."

Gamer John Blatzheim, who heard of Andrews' situation, e-mailed Blizzard to express his concern of a double standard that game masters would send her a warning that she could not use "non-caucasian" as an advertisement to express a safe place for black gamers after an incident a few months ago where a drive-by occurred within the game and players yelled in general chat, "Don't trust the n******!"

"Many people are insulted just at the word 'African-American' or any other word referring to race," Blizzard responded to Blatzheim in an e-mail. "Also to discriminate against other players, such as not allowing any caucasians into the guild simply because of their race, could cause extreme offense to a large percentage of our players and should be avoided."

MLK Champions and The Spreading Pride, two large black guilds are currently formulating a letter they plan to submit to Blizzard requesting a more detailed explanation as to the intent of this reinterpretation and execution of the racial discrimination rule. As the spirit of the discrimination rule seems to have been reinterpreted from protecting non-caucasian players, to keeping them silent.

There are various types of servers that players can experience the game on. One of the options is to play on a role-playing server where players actually play as their characters, rather than through their characters. "We have determined that advertising race is not appropriate for the high fantasy setting of the World of Warcraft and is therefore not permitted" was another of Blizzard's responses. Does this mean that if a player has a character on a role-playing server that they play as black that would be violating the policy?

Re:Okey dokey

[VultureMN]

A lot of chatter on the guild chat channel is "Hey, how ya doing?" "Oh, not much, just got back from dinner with my girlfriend/boyfriend" Blahblahblah.

Anyway, a LGBT guild would be guaranteed not to have other guildies then going "OMFG U fagortz pAt rob3rts0n sez ur dizeezed!". In other words, a good way to keep from getting harassed by juvenile pricks.

So, it's not asking for SPECIAL rights. It's simply a way of avoiding idiots. What's wrong with that?

Re:Okey dokey

[Brinczer]

Er, I don't know about you, but personally, I would find a guild advertised as 'non-caucasian' to be exclusionary, racist and offensive.

Re:Okey dokey

[Monkeyboy4]

I call bullshit.

Look, this person was tryig to form a guild. Completely legit.
They wanted to make it specifically GBLT friendly. Completely legit.


To say that this is inappropriate becuase it may cause others to harass people is akin to saying a women who wears shorts is responsible for being raped, or a black person who goes to church is responsible for the KKK burning the building down.

The way Blizzard is trying to enforce their harassment policy is, ironically, highly descriminatory. They are not trying to protect the GBLT players, but rather to protect themselves from pissing off thier core constituency by enforcing a policy that they have.

This is truly offensive.

Re:Okey dokey

[Jace of Fuse!]

Every time I reload Diablo 2 I'm reminded of why I remove it; "oh yes, I'm surrounded by scum".

My solution to this was simple. I only play games with a few people I know IRL or people I know I get along with from online. I create private games in Diablo 2 and I password protect them. Believe me, this makes Diablo 2 a hell of a shitload better.

In WoW, my guild is restricted to people I know IRL, and a few we have encountered online we care to play with. Fnord the rest of them. It's rare we invite someone into the guild, because it's rare we find someone we don't think is an idiotic brat.

Re:Okey dokey

[alzoron]

They're not discriminating against the individuals, they're discriminating against their group. It would be like an LGBT group walking into Burger King with signs and walking around telling everyone what they were and what they stood for, and then setting up base camp by the drink machine.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like it and wish it didn't have to happen, it's just that I believe people should use accurate arguments to defend their beliefs.

Seems Standart

[Azarael]

From what I have read, Blizzard is pretty tight on what sort of character names, etc that they allow. The decision in the article seems to be consistent with their in-game policies.

Re:Seems Standart

[Soybean47]

Well, yeah. That's exactly what we're looking at. Somebody at Blizzard has come up with the idea that if they don't let you talk about your sexual orientation, nobody will persecute you for it... so they don't have to worry about dealing with the fallout later.

I assume that the way they're looking at it goes something like, "If someone started a 'heterosexual-friendly' guild, we wouldn't allow that under our harrassment policy, so how is this different?"

And, of course, you want to say that it's different because the GLBT community (is it really only 4 letters now?) are the ones being persecuted, and Blizzard is, in a way, persecuting them to prevent their future persecution. Which is clearly crazy.

Personally, I look at the whole thing, and I can see why everyone's doing everything they're doing, and I just wish that the world was such that the GLBT people didn't feel like they needed a special guild where they'd feel safe.

Blizzard is right

[A beautiful mind]

WoW is a fantasy world and they just want to take the issues of contemporarly life out of it.

It's not like a gay couldn't play WoW, as I'm sure thousands of gay people do play, but rather that recruiting people to a gay guild is adding unnecessary tension. It's like naming a guild "republican lovers" and trying to recruit people in to that kind of guild. I'm sure many people would dislike that too and I'm almost certain Blizzard would act similarly.

Re:Blizzard is right

[duerra]

It's not like a gay couldn't play WoW, as I'm sure thousands of gay people do play, but rather that recruiting people to a gay guild is adding unnecessary tension. It's like naming a guild "republican lovers" and trying to recruit people in to that kind of guild. I'm sure many people would dislike that too and I'm almost certain Blizzard would act similarly.

And what is wrong with either? I understand where they are coming from, but at the same time, if I am playing a game that takes advantage of teamwork, the best bet is to try and get players around you that have similar ideals, passions, ways of thinking, etc. This provides an opportunity for players to form deep-seeded friendships, which online games do for a lot of people. If my passion is being a Republican (or Democrat, or snowboarder, or whatever), then I don't see why I should be disallowed from forming a group of players together that have these similar passions when I am clearly not doing so out of malicious intent.

Re:Blizzard is right

[DeepCerulean]

Obviously "republican lovers" would be just another attempt at creating a GBLT friendly guild...

Re:Blizzard is right

[bahwi]

From TFA:

Sara Andrews has stated that she will not be renewing her World of Warcraft account due to Blizzards lack of support for a GLBT friendly environment, "It seems to be OK for general chat to be flooded with, 'That's so gay!' and 'I just got ganked! What a fag!' yet advertising for a GLBT friendly environment where we don't have to deal with such language is deemed inappropriate."

---

But I don't see any links about "Damn republicans! Stupid GOPs!" or anything like that. If done right it can be a positive thing, and people see that there are gay gamers out there. A thing more rare than women it seems. It doesn't have to be an isuse, it can be a positive thing. Instead of grouping with a bunch of people who just yell anti gay slurs and being a closet-case-ork.

The problem is the society, you can't take the issues of contemporary life out completely, and it never hurts to group up with similar people so you don't have to worry about those issues either.

What blizzard has done has simply left those issues in.

Re:Blizzard is right

[JabberWokky]

Because they are trying to foster role playing and create groups based on the characters rather than the players.

You can't be a Republican in a fantasy age. They don't exist. You can't be a snowboarder -- they don't exist. Your character does not snowboard, and there's no such thing as Republicans, so how can you form a guild based around it? Note that you could create a players association... this is specifically about in-game groups called guilds. There are no players who are members of a guild -- only their characters are.

And a thought just struck me... in the World of Warcraft, I'm fairly certain that Blizzard has not written sex into the actual game, so therefore it doesn't officially exist. You can't have a gay or straight character -- you can't have sex at all.

--
Evan

Re:Blizzard is right

[SatanicPuppy]

Blah blah. Right or wrong, "Gay" and "Fag" are common parlance of annoyance and insult with the younger set. I myself was quite enamored of the word "Bitch" which I applied impartially to men, women, and machinery. It's offensive to some people, but when it's in common use as a general purpose insult, you're just going to have to get over it, and wait for the fad to change.

Re:Blizzard is right

[bahwi]

Yeah, but the enviroment of those words is different. People aren't afraid to admit they're women. Pretty much everybody(excluding slashdot) has probably seen them. It's a whole different world when it comes to gay. People ARE afraid to come out of the closet, you can be fired for being gay(yes, you can), people constantly attack people for being gay, at least with rape there's at least a second motive(sex) not just a victim(the women, in most cases).

But yeah, they're just common insults, gay, fag, bitch, nigger, and there should be nothing wrong with them. But unfortunately, there are. It's better to be called bitch or fag from someone you know is that way too, instead of someone using it as either a light-but-nothing really insult or a i-hate-dem-homos-gonna-carve-me-up-another insult.

Re:Blizzard is right

[Onan]

So because an offensive act is accepted within a given subculture, we should always just sit back and accept it?

My understanding is that slaveholding was pretty universally accepted in the antebellum South. Does that mean that everyone should've just gotten over that and waited for the fad to change on its own?

(No, I'm not claiming that calling someone a fag is the same scale of badness as holding them in lifelong servitude. But I'm pointing out that societal acceptance is a crappy sole standard for the condoning of oppressive discrimination.)

Re:Blizzard is right

[Ptarmigan42]

I totally disagree.

The fact is that discrimination against GLTB people is fairly common in WoW. Usually when I'm confronted a person who gratuitously uses descriminatory language, I just tell them to knock it off, and I've had about a 50% success rate with this strategy. Some will apologize and tell you that they have several gay friends, and that they totally didn't mean it like that. Some will tell you about Sodom and Gomorrah and how 'that lifestyle' leads straight to hell, and while I find it quite hilarious that people actually believe that in this day and age, I can see how for some people it would get quite frustrating. Which is why a GLBT-friendly guild has a place on WoW - it would be a place where you can play the game and not have to deal with discriminatory fuckwits. It makes even more sense when you consider that, when you join a guild, you often don't know the GLBT-friendliness of your fellow guildees. And if you do find out subsequently that some of them (especially a guild leader) are not terribly enlightened, you face a tough decision about whether or not to stay with the guild (most of whom may be really good people). I've had this happen to me - I eventually quit, because the guild leader was one of the less enlightened folks. Joining a guild advertised as GLBT-friendly would alleviate all of these problems.

Re:Blizzard is right

[orangesquid]

The purpose of LGBT groups is usually just to give people who feel out-of-place a home. Sometimes there are LGBT activism, dating, or topic-discussion groups, but a lot of LGBT gatherings or LGBT social groups are more just symbols of pride.. like having a LGBT distributed.net team or something.
I'm not sure what the woman's intent was in creating the group, but it almost seems like WoW is doing a don't-ask-don't-tell approach to eliminating sexual harrassment.
If sexual orientation is part of contemporary life, what reason is there for eliminating it from fantasy worlds?

Some things ARE often said to stir up trouble; chances are that a "communist pride", "white power", or "hetero warriors" guild would be considered offensive to a majority of players, and those sorts of things would be discouraged.
But, unless they have reason to believe a LGBT guild would make a significant number of players uncomfortable...
I dunno. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm not familiar with WoW and I don't know how much of a social game it is (is there a lot of role-playing? is there a lot of interaction with other players, or not?)

Maybe you could argue that there's no reason to have a LGBT-specific guild, but then if someone wanted to make a "slashdot users' guild" or "U.K. players' guild", you'd have to deny those because of irrelevancy to the game, also.

I think they feel that this may stir up some gay-bashers, but, I would argue that the people who are being actively aggressive toward others (the gay-bashers) should be punished.
Perhaps the LGBT guild was intended to annoy some gay-bashers in the game, but that's passive-aggressive.. I wouldn't really call it a case of harrassment.
If I put a "I vote democrat!" bumper sticker on my car, does that mean I'm harrassing republicans?

Re:Blizzard is right

[Peganthyrus]

"Gay" and "Fag" are common parlance of annoyance and insult with the younger set.

Yeah, and it makes people who are gay really uncomfortable to have those words thrown around as insults. It's hard enough to come out in the first place; I can't imagine what it would be like to come out if everyone I knew was clearly hostile to my sexuality because they used those words as insults all the time.

What's your ethnicity, what's your kink? Search and replace "gay" and 'fag" and so on with "wop" or "kike" or "Jap" or "nigger" or whatever term is instant fighting words, when applied to you. Looks like a pretty hostile environment, doesn't it?

I've actually gotten younger people I know to stop saying "That's so gay" when they mean "that's stupid" by pointing out that, hey, I'm gay, and it hurts every time they do that.

Re:Blizzard is right

[blunte]

You're not allowed to say "that's so gay" and so on. It is against the terms. However, Blizz doesn't monitor every communication, but rather they leave it up to players to self-police.

You can report people who are saying offensive things and Blizzard will look into it. In many cases they'll give a warning, and in some cases they'll ban someone.

I've had very positive results from reporting people who had offensive names or who said things highly offensive (in my view). So if gays get offended by hearing the word "gay" used as a negative term, then they should report the offenders.

Re:Blizzard is right

[Epi-man]

If done right it can be a positive thing, and people see that there are gay gamers out there.

Can I just ask why the heck it matters whether there are or are not gay gamers out there? What does sexual orientation have to do with any of it, why should any one care? I am asking this in all seriousness, this is just silly (to me).

Re:Blizzard is right

[SatanicPuppy]

Don't portray it like I'm just insensitive and don't understand what it's like...I have both empathy and personal experience to fall back on.

But confronting everyone who thoughtlessly uses a word that you find offensive isn't the answer. The people who didn't mean anything by it will feel like shitheads, and people generally don't like feeling like shitheads, which beeeds resentment. And the ones who did mean something by it will laugh and get up in your face, and you won't have solved anything. There are better fights to fight than just making sure everyone uses nice words all the time.

Re:Blizzard is right

[MortalityTechnician]

I'm fairly certain that Blizzard has not written sex into the actual game, so therefore it doesn't officially exist ... you can't have sex at all.

So it's just like real life, then.

Re:Blizzard is right

[TheEvilOverlord]

Yeah, and it makes people who are gay really uncomfortable to have those words thrown around as insults. It's hard enough to come out in the first place; I can't imagine what it would be like to come out if everyone I knew was clearly hostile to my sexuality because they used those words as insults all the time.

For a few years I ran game servers on a university campus network. As an extention of the SU we had to uphold their anti-homophobia policy and in-game chat was treated like any other SU venue; if we didn't we'd be shut down. This ment logging it all and punishing the offenders. It seemed totally OTT to me, while I didn't use homophobic language myself as it seemed childish, it was just the parlance for insulting people in Internet gaming culture and it never really struck me as wrong.

It made many of the users very angry, and when I started banning persistant offenders they tried to appeal to the SU, to whom I sent the logs and they just threatened the student with a university disciplinary hearing for their conduct; promptly silencing them.

It took about six months for people to really understand and change the way they talked. Initially I wanted to fight it myself as I'm very anti-censorship & pro free speach. However the SU isn't about that, it's a socialist construct and as such one of its roles is to provide a slightly nicer version of the world where young adults can find themselves.

I think everyone benefited. I realised that as harmless as it may seem, using "gay" as a pejorative hurts people. Having to explain to people why they couldn't use it really made me think about it. The offender would always try and explain it away, "it wasn't homophobic", and I knew it wasn't, but it implys being gay is bad and whatever your personal beliefs policy says you can't do that. The gamers hopfully thought about how they used homophobic language and at the very least learned how not to use it if they had to. Plus I'm sure the couple of gamers we had that I knew were gay felt less insulted.

It reminded me that governments often want to restrict freedom of speach for the same reason its freedom needs to be protected. It can be very powerful; which is also the reason we ought to be careful how we use it.

Good for Blizzard

[MustardMan]

Why should a guild be limited to GLBT? What if someone tried to make a "whites-only" guild? The whole POINT of an online game is that you can get away from your real self and become another persona - a person's sexual orientation, race, creed, color, or taste in music has exactly jack squat to do with the game or the game world.

Re:Good for Blizzard

[misfit13b]

The whole POINT of an online game is that you can get away from your real self and become another persona...

So why can't this other persona be gay?

Re:Good for Blizzard

[jythie]

I get the feeling blizzard made a similiar assumption, but from what I can see from the original recruitment, it was just supposed to be a GLBT _friendly_ guild... so no ban on hetrosexuals in the first place. I am truely baffled why 'friendly' must mean 'everyone else is banned'

Re:Good for Blizzard

[Brantano]

Okay, then what about the christian guilds? are you telling me that a completly gay guild is going to get more flack than a christian guild, in a fantasy mmo? Where people use magic (and we all know, according to most christians, harry potter and magic is the devil), are elves, and go around killing magical beasts? If anything a religious guild should be banned as well. But they wouldnt do that, gay people suck right, christianity is where its at. (sarcasm)

Re:Good for Blizzard

[DingerX]

er...there are plenty of "whites only" organizations both in WoW and in the US society at large. There are also groups implicitly or explicitly limited by country, age, political leaning or any other number of factors. But this is dumbass:

"We have determined that advertising sexual orientation is not appropriate for the high fantasy setting of the World of Warcraft and is therefore not permitted"

According to the letter of the statement, advertising a heterosexual orientation is also not appropriate, but clearly that's not what's meant.

And yeah, "high fantasy setting" and "sexual orientation" are completely inimical. I've never heard of any porn featuring "hot girl-on-girl action" in a "high fantasy setting". I suppose the rules are different when they involve real lesbians engaged in something like real fantasy life than fake lesbians in fantasy real life. Makes sense. After all, you gotta be straight to play the role of a gay cowboy.

In any case, while I understand the point of trying to change attitudes in a homophobic chatroom-with-spells like WoW, a gay clan could do more good in one of those PvP environments. Imagine the fun when the conservative parents find their nine-year-old bitching that he got totally pwn3d by a bunch of homos who ganked him, then repeatedly ass-raped him as he tried to spawn.

Wait a minute, how would anyone be able to tell the difference between that situation and what's happening now?

I'm confused.

Re:Good for Blizzard

[TWooster]

You avoided the question. That is really, neither here nor there.

A character's sexual orientation has no bearing on gameplay. If you choose to orient your online character as gay, that's fine, even though your character can't really get it on with another character (though, "cybering" might be the exception here). What they wish to prevent, I assure you, is becoming liable for not properly policing hate issues towards the people BEHIND the personas. Which is where a GLBT guild would certainly lead.

I'm sure they'd have no problems with guilds built around in-game character differences. You could have a dwarves guild or a magic-users guild. The moment you start involving anything from the outside world into the game, you're going to have to begin dealing with hate issues. A male-only guild, a gay-friendly guild, a pro-choice guild (hey, you can RP it, right?) has no place in the game.

On the other hand, "gay" and "fag" in public chat conversations should probably be limited. It adds nothing to the ability to communicate, and is breaking the RL/game boundary. And say Blizzard doesn't implement that, if you wanted to enforce that for a guild, you simply set up a policy, whereby players in the guild who do use language you deem inappropriate are warned/removed from the guild.

I'm siding with Blizzard on this one, though their response seems a bit weird.

Re:Good for Blizzard

[misfit13b]

So deal with hate issues by, oh, I don't know... dealing directly with those who are doing the hating, perhaps? The end result here doesn't make sense. This person's GLBT-friendly guild isn't anti anything, nor are they starting their group with malicious intent.

By going on assumptions that a guild like that may lead to hate issues, they're not doing anything to remove the true negative elements from the game. Instead, Blizzard chooses to limit positive social interactivity between benevolent like-minded gamers.

And by the way, calling people "gay" or a "fag" online has nothing to do with breaking any kind of RL/game boundary. It's simply ignorance and hatred. (I've been called a "fag" many times online, and I'm not gay in RL.)

Re:Good for Blizzard

[plover]

Because there is no in-game sex in WoW. There is not even an in-game concept of sex. Characters have gender, but that's little more than a "costume" providing a body shape that has typical gender identifying characteristics.

Guilds are character associations, not player groups. (A player can have multiple characters, say a cleric and a rogue, but if his cleric is accepted in a guild, that doesn't grant his rogue any special status.) Guilds are for gaming concepts -- and there is no gaming concept of sex in WoW. You can start a rogue's guild or an Ironforge guild. You can start a We Farm URBS guild. You could start a racist "elves-only" guild or a "no gnomes allowed" guild if you want. You could even have a "no-girl-characters" guild, and disallow any female characters. But they're all character-based, and based on the in-game reality. In real life, it doesn't matter if it's a male or female player controlling the male or female character.

Re:Good for Blizzard

[rjstanford]

And yeah, "high fantasy setting" and "sexual orientation" are completely inimical. I've never heard of any porn featuring "hot girl-on-girl action" in a "high fantasy setting".

Stay away from Xena fan-fiction then :)

Huh?

[Saige]

Let's see... because doing this MIGHT cause other players to harass and discriminate GLBT folks, Blizzard will head this all off by discriminating against GLBT folks.

So now you're allowed to go around calling other people and things gay, but refer to yourself that way, and you're in trouble.

Quality ideas here.

Re:Huh?

[Muchacho_Gasolino]

The way I see it, Blizzard isn't really discriminating against anyone. Blizzard is saying that any sort of in-game establishment with a specific ideological, philosophical, political, or relgious basis for existence is not allowed. Discrimination requires that different categories of people recieve different treatment. I don't see that happening here.

Re:Huh?

[Godai]

Actually, they're quite consistent. They don't allow the discussion of sexual orientation in any way. This is in keeping with their desire to maintain a 'family safe' environment.

You wouldn't even be allowed to discuss whether Elton John is gay or not -- in fact, I know of a player who was suspended for 3 hours for doing so. Rightly or wrongly they've decided that rather than try to evaluate such discussion on a case by case basis they'd rather simply disallow discussion of the topic. This would include bannig discussion about whether or not Brad Pitt is straight so it's not discrimination.

Thus, it'd be hard to recruit for a GLBT guild without discussiong policy-banned topics. In the end, it's their game, it's their policy, and if someone is playing, they've agreed agreed to it. If someone doesn't like it, they're always free to not pay them to play.

Re:Huh?

[keyne9]

Blizzard will head this all off by discriminating against GLBT folks. So now you're allowed to go around calling other people and things gay, but refer to yourself that way, and you're in trouble.

Uh, no. They're saying it isn't a good idea to form such a guild, as it promotes a lot of hate-mongering. Additionally, if you'd read the blurb at all, you'd know that calling people "gay" or any derivative can result in suspension (rather than a warning).

Read & comprehend.

Re:Huh?

[TheCarp]

Good point.

I mean, I am about as GLBT friendly as a person gets, but this entire issue just goes too far. In fact, it goes too far on so many levels.

Ok I understand the family friendly stuff... thats why I don't play WoW. I am offended by the familyy friendly nazis everywhere that I run into them. I avoid them. I don't like their viepoint. I don't agree with their implicit assumption that language or exposure to sexuality, or whatever is in some way damaging to children. Frankly, I consider their viewpoint stupid.... but I still respect it. I leave them the fuck alone and expect the same respect in return.

as H L Menken said "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.". Words to live by in any area of life.

But anyway... GLBT? Good for you. Why is it so important to tell everyone and organize around it. Have your clubs, have PACs, get together and rant and rave and do whatever. Why must you (and I realise this is only a subset of GLBT people that I am addressing here), shove it in everyones face?

In fact, its a game designed to have people team up and work together and be social based on the game dynamics. Why bring in outside dynamics? Why form a guild of GLBTs when GLBT has no meaning inside the game at all? Your character doesn't even have sexual organs for gods sake! Do you really care that much if the people you play with are GLBT? Wats wrong with us straight people?

How would you feel if you saw a "Straight as an Arrow" guild? Wouldn't it seem silly? WoW isn't a dating site, goto match.com or some such and announce your sexuality there, if you really want to converse with more GLBTs... or go to a sci fi con or something.

This is silly. WoW was right. They did the right thing. If you don't like it, then play a better game. WoW kinda sucks anyway... City Of Villians now... there is a game.

-Steve

Re:Huh?

[Jherico]

The way I see it, Blizzard isn't really discriminating against anyone.

Blizzard has already been discriminating against people by failing to enforce their anti-sexual harrasment policy. As long as someone if free to hurl 'fag' or 'gay' as an insult in game, then Blizzard is fostering a hostile environment for GLBT players. And FTA, the person was recruiting for a GLBT friendly guild. That means it wasn't exclusionary except of course that you couldn't be hostile to GLBT people. You didn't have to be Gay to join the guild. You just had to think that using 'fag' as an epithet was wrong. Besides, Night Elves are very clear already gay.

Re:Huh?

[Elwood P Dowd]

Why form a guild of GLBTs when GLBT has no meaning inside the game at all?

Are you for serious? Do you really think people don't talk about sexuality at all on WoW? They don't talk about their boyfriends & girlfriends & what they think is attractive? People don't make friends on WoW? They don't use sexuality based slurs?

Sure, I know what's prohibited, but that's irrelevant. It happens just the same.

So if roles were reversed, 98% of WoW users were gay, and slurs against straight people were common on WoW, and I actually hoped to meet other people on WoW with whom I might become friends with (and, you know, maybe date), then I can totally imagine joining a guild for straight people. How is this not obvious? You sound like you've intentionally deluded yourself (and you sound a little like all the idiot homophobes up in this discussion).

Re:Huh?

[tnakilper]

In what way is a gay friendly guild promoting hate mongering? The only thing promoting harassment is the bigotry of the small-minded dimwits that would react that way. The fear of retalliation from homophobes is no reason to block like-minded people from organizing or advertising their existance.

Re:Huh?

[metamatic]

Why is it so important to tell everyone and organize around it.

The point is to organize a guild so you can enjoy the game without having bigots call you a fag all the time. That's exactly the behavior that keeps me away from online gaming.

Re:Huh?

[thesandtiger]

Exactly so.

If a straight person is in a 'regular' guild and says "Oh, I have to go - my boyfriend and I are going out tonight, I have to get ready" such a statement is met without comment.

If a gay person were to say "Oh, I have to go - my girlfriend and I are going out tonight, I have to get ready" such a statement usually gets met with "Uh... I thought you were a girl? How can you have a girlfriend?" at best, and "OMGZZ! UR A DYKE!!!" with a swift kick from the guild at worst.

One should be perfectly free to not have to worry that if they say the pronoun of the person they're involved with that they'll get grief for it. That's the point of a GLBT friendly guild - one can be oneself without getting harassed by small-minded idiots over something that really is irrelevant.

Re:Huh?

[naubol]

Why must you (and I realise this is only a subset of GLBT people that I am addressing here), shove it in everyones face?

Why are there African American college clubs, night clubs, or an african american caucus in the U.S. Congress? Why are there minority scholarship funds, minority political action committees, or other minority groups built around a sport? Why is there a hispanic rugby team in my city? Do you think they're shoving their hispanic-ness in your face when they advertise on a board at Wal-mart or in your local newspaper?

The reason why these kinds of organizations exist and why minorities and homosexual people want to gather together is because you're less likely to experience comments like "thats so gay" on the guild channel, you're more likely to be able to talk about things in real life that might hint at your sexuality, and you're more likely to be able to say things like "Oh honey, I just went to an Elton John concert and it was so fabulous." There are also many common things among many of the self-identified and out homosexual people and maybe they want to be closer to those kinds of people.

I ran a GLBT-friendly end-game guild on WoW where I would guess 20% of our members did not identify themselves as heterosexuals. We did not advertise ourselves as GLBT friendly except in one way, you were introduced to our charter before you were given an invite, and it clearly expressed that we would not tolerate discrimination against ethnic groups or homosexual people and that we were friendly to all types of people of all backgrounds, ie we were GLBT friendly. The guild leader in the article takes pains to say that it is not GLBT only. I have known heterosexual people who were attracted to GLBT friendly guilds because they shared a lot of common values that are held by a majority of out GLBT people.

But lets be absolutely clear. She wasn't flaunting a sexual preference or in anyway saying that there is a superior sexual preference. She wasn't shoving her preferences in your face, unlike that stupid Chuck Norris trend, she was advertising a specific thing, a cultural thing. I fear for your ability to reason and be critical when you think that a guild that advertises a specific cultural style is offensive and in your face when they aren't speaking to you directly but on a public channel created for that kind of thing.

In fact, its a game designed to have people team up and work together and be social based on the game dynamics. Why bring in outside dynamics?

No guild I've ever been in or run myself, and I've been gaming for over 11 years, has ever failed to bring in outside dynamics. People talk about getting married, having kids, meeting someone new, dealing with their studies, and how sick they are. When people are social they share parts of themselves that are not totally encapsulated into the game world and it is ridiculous, thoroughly ridiculous, to expect otherwise of the vast majority of guilds.

This cultural aspect of social dynamics means that it is legitimate to want a guild where people will not say "thats so gay" and where you can say, "yeah my sex class is turning out to be quite compelling" when you want a guild that is more accepting of that kind of thing.

How would you feel if you saw a "Straight as an Arrow" guild? Wouldn't it seem silly?

Yes and no. It would seem silly, in a way, because it seems thats what most guilds are. You don't have to be really picky to find a guild like that. Finding a straight guild that is not GLBT friendly is like trying to find a white person in a country club, you can close your eyes and still run into one. Also, it wouldn't seem quite inappropriate because a lot of people really, really want to avoid GLBT people and they might go to such lengths just to do so. I think it is the height of ignorance, but I would still support their right to do so.

WoW isn'

Re:Huh?

[drinkypoo]

I strongly disagree. This is just like the military's don't ask, don't tell policy, and it stinks. Why is it not okay to be yourself on WoW? I was just reading an article about this, it's called "covering". You can come out of the closet maybe, but then you have to "cover" up your real self. One of the examples was, your family will invite your (the theoretical third-party homosexual is "you" in this case) lifemate to christmas, but don't kiss under the mistletoe like a "normal" couple. You can play WoW, but you'd better not let anyone know you're gay. What's the difference? Nothing. It's still sexual discrimination and it's utterly inappropriate.

Now, maybe they have the right to discriminate against homosexuals on a MMOG, I'm not sure how the law would be applied if it would be at all, but it's still discrimination, and it makes me ill. I'm not playing WoW just because I don't want to, but if I had wanted to, I'd certainly skip it now.

Re:Huh?

[pomo monster]

"...I think that if I meet you, and find out for no aparent reason that you are bisexual within 5 minutes of meeting you, then maybe you need to consider that you are going a bit far with this openness and ... making people feel like you are pushing acceptance of your lifestyle on them."

Jane Doe runs into the boardroom. "Sorry I'm late, everyone. My boyfriend got run over by a bus and I had to rush him to the hospital."
Everyone gasps. "Oh no! Is he all right?"

John Doe runs into the boardroom. "Sorry I'm late, everyone. My boyfriend got run over by a bus and I had to rush him to the hospital."
Everyone shuffles uncomfortably in their seats, and TheCarp says: "Please stop pushing your lifestyle upon us."

GLBT

[Alioth]

I wish they could come up with a better acronym. I always read it as "Gilbert", which probably isn't the intention.

The ONLY question

[acvh]

is "do they allow other guilds based on sexual orientation?" the Guild of Heterosexual Males? The Guild of White Men From America?

If so, then this decision is wrong. If not, then this is a nonissue and that's that.

Re:The ONLY question

[Jherico]

the Guild of Heterosexual Males? The Guild of White Men From America?

That's a specious argument. Heterosexual males, and white men from america aren't likely to need to go somewhere special to find acceptance and escape harrasment. Most guild are likely to be upwards of 90% heterosexual white males already. Just because they haven't made it explicit in their recruiting doesn't mean someone openly gay wouldn't be made to feel unwelcome either.

backwards blame?

[alex_guy_CA]

I may have something wrong here, but it seems as though the company is blaming the gay player for harassment that might come from other players. That would be like banning women from playing so that men don't harass them. It seems pretty backwards to me.

Re:backwards blame?

[keyne9]

The company (Blizzard) cannot possibly be certain that the promoters of the guild are actually attempting to create a GLBT-friendly atmosphere. In the past, people have done similar with the intent to harrass any recruits or inquisitive parties (whose guilds have been shut down rather quickly, but the damage was done).

Re:Question

[voice_of_all_reason]

why should your orientation be brought into a game that has nothing to do with sex?

Take a look at the promotional art for any female character in the history of fantasy and tell me that's not true :)

They allow...

[Luthair]

Christian guilds, why should other communities be blocked.

Re:They allow...

[Digital Vomit]

Can you give some examples? The only "Christianity" I've EVER seen in World of Warcraft is the name "Jesus" and word "Christ" being used as expletives.

You are talking about guilds who openly go about discussing Christianity on the public chat channels, right (be it recruiting, proselytizing, or whatever)? You're not just talking about Christians who've gathered together in a guild who talk about Christianity outside the game on messageboards and the like and maybe only privately discuss it in the game, right?

Re:Not about rights...

[pclminion]

So you don't complain about all the other players who use gay-bashing language, screaming "Faggot!" at anyone who pisses them off, and receive no punishment from Blizzard... But you claim inappropriateness when a GLBT group forms in an effort to counter this abuse?

I guess you think they should sit back down and take the abuse silently like good little homosexuals... I can't believe this received a +4 Insightful on Slashdot.

Blizz owns WOW

[DangerSteel]

They can do what they want with the game including make the rules, change the rules, and break the rules. Your options are limited to playing the game they way they want or not playing it. Accept it.

Re:Blizz owns WOW

[Aranth Brainfire]

The government funds the school systems. They can discriminate however they like, they own it. Don't like it? Don't go to school/get hired by them. Simple.

(cough, sarcasm, cough, in case some bonehead thinks I'm serious and flames me)

Many legitimate purposes for a GLBT guild!

[LowneWulf]

A GLBT guild has many practical applications in WoW:

• Campaigning against Night Elves cybering in Ironforge.
• Fashion shows, modelling, and finding pirate outfits.
• Seeking out phallic landmarks.
• Offering support services for gnomes abused by priests.
• Paladins.
• /dance
• Parades through Stormwind

Two questions

[vslashg]

I have two questions here.

1. What would you want Blizzard to do if a guild started publicly recruiting with a "straight people only" policy?
2. How is this any different?

Re:Two questions

[Mad Leper]

" No one bashes straight people. Straight people aren't persecuted in society. "

Gross generalizations about a particular group are hurtful and can be considered discriminatory.

I think you've just nullified your own statement.

Ratings

[manonthespoon]

The game is rated Teen and not Mature. I imagine that the Teen rating limits the sexual content of the game, and blizzard's Terms of Service reflect that rating by also restricting people's ability to discuss sex and sexuality in game.

Ultimately it doesn't matter if your character is Gay/Straight. World of Warcraft is not supposed to be a game in which sex and sexuality is a defining aspect of a character. I wonder how you are supposed to recruit for a Gay/Lesbian guild while not being allowed to discuss sex in game?

Anyway, the "why?" is the Teen rating. Blizzard may need to work on the "how?" especially since they seem to be just pissing more people off with their current policy of "Don't ask, don't tell."

Re:GLBT?

[gclef]

Gay
Lesbian
Bisexual
Transgender

Re:What I am curious about is

[pclminion]

Individuals fight for Gay Rights. They fight for equal opportunities. They fight to be recognised as equals. Then they form a guild to spotlight the fact that they are different than the common society.

No. Would some of you dense people read the fucking article? The guild was formed because WoW is rife with homophobic abuse. Yes, Blizzard has a policy against it but it is not enforced. And the guild is "GLBT Friendly" not "GLBT ONLY." What does GLBT Friendly mean? It means guild members can rest assured that they will not receive homophobic harassment from other guild members. It does not mean this is some sort of "gay sex club." Get a fucking grip.

Re:Not about rights...

[voice_of_all_reason]

Not to be an ass, but freedom of speech only applies to the government. Blizzard is free to ban you for using the letter "q" if they so desire.

Re:Not about rights...

[pclminion]

Don't be retarded. Blizzard has a STATED POLICY against sexually based harassment. They are perfectly free to censor whoever the fuck they want, and I have no problem with that. The problem arises when they fail to enforce these anti-harassment policies. It isn't surprising that a GLBT group would form in order to counter this. Only then do they whip out the "sexual orientation" policy in order to snub the group.

This has utterly nothing to do with freedom of speech.

Re:Not about rights...

[moosesocks]

I agree with you 100%. Online gaming is a haven for homophobia. The amount of gay-bashing that goes on in in-game chats would be considered intolerable in even the most conservative circles in the real world.

A few years back, a small online FPS game I used to play decided to extend its anti-biogtry policy to protect against gay-bashing. The backlash was severe, and many players left in protest after being repatedly kicked from the game for using offensive language.

Fortunately, the developer running the game stuck with it despite the many rumors circulated that he was gay -- I can't help but admire the fact that he never bothered to defend himself against the rumors. I think he eventually responded in an interview something to the extent of "No, I am not, but I don't feel the need to defend myself against these rumors because I find nothing offensive about it"

Gamers can be so immature. This is probably the biggest reason I no longer game online. These people give the impresion of being 13 years old, and you later learn that they're actually grown adults. Pathetic.

Bad Analogy

[Moth7]

There's nothing wrong with a gay guild from the perspective of total in-game immersion. Homosexuality is not something artificially created by contemporary society - it will exist in any environment where humans, and indeed other species, are present. There's no republican gene that would cause an elf to magically align his or her self to what is, compared to the number of possible outlooks on life, a relatively narrow band of thinking. However, where nature can only incline you to be attracted to one gender or a combination of the two, then probability says it is definitely going to happen.

Take a mythology with 10 races, all of whom are loosely based on humans. In total, you're going to have as many gays over all as, for example, dwarves. Your argument appears to equate homosexuality (an inherent characteristic) with any of a number of artificially defined concepts, such as religion or political alignment. If it's ok to base a guild around in game concepts, say all those who worship some in game deity, why is it not acceptable to base a guild around concepts which exist both in game and in the real world? Would it be a violation of Blizzard policy to create a race of herbivores? I think not. Why then is it wrong to differentiate between (loosely paralelled) homosexuals (herbivores), bisexuals (omnivores) and heterosexuals (carnivores)? If anything, denying the existence of homosexuality within the world of warcraft reduces its verisimilitude and only serves to alienate people further.

When I write my dark futurepunk MMORPG...

[hattig]

I'm going to fill it full of gay bars, trannie bars, and the like. A core part of the game will be shopping in goth/punk/hellokitty type areas in order to equip your character with all the correct gear for their sexuality. Instead of Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic it'll have Straight-Bi-Gay-RichardSimmons... (yes, this is a joke). It'd get all the business that other games don't want.

I can understand Blizzard's POV - let's not bring these things into the game, it's a game, it's fantasy.

OTOH I can understand that some people might want to be with people who (external to the game) are like them. That's natural. It's like older gamers not wanting to play with punk 14 year olds with attitude problems.

Common Culture

[Prien715]

I, for one, think Blizzard is completely off-base.

There's certainly Chinese guilds, French guilds, mature guilds, and 1337 guilds; why not a GBLT guild? Being GBLT isn't about primarily about sexuality, it's about gender roles and common culture. Just as geeks have sites like slashdot, GBLT persons have common forums, movies, and books with which they identify to create common cultural references.

Defined gender roles and attitudes toward them have an integral role in any cooperative community -- real or virtual -- and I believe that it's perfectly reasonable to use this set of common beliefs to form a guild.

(Note: I am not GBLT, but I am friends with quite a few)

Re:Blizzard is right!

[halivar]

Everyone who plays WoW is gay.

No, WoW just reveals latent gender-identity issues in our youth. Why else would almost all of America's male teenagers want to play a female night-elf?

Re:Not about rights...

[Digital Vomit]

And what about when people use the words "Christ" and "Jesus" as expletives in the game? The people that complain about the use of "gay" in a derogatory sense never seem to complain when the words I mentioned are abused.

Re:Not about rights...

[Yst]

People have found ways around this in the past. I have been in a covertly gay MMORPG guild. We were gay, yeah, but ask us outright and you wouldn't get a straight answer. Sometimes closeting and ghettoisation is, pragmatically, the best option from the gay point of view, even today. A military friend of mine can attest to that.

But closeting shouldn't be enforced from above. That's utter crap.

And I don't think the hypocrisy lies in homophobic slang being permitted de facto (and don't tell me it isn't permitted - it is): I think the hypocrisy lies in the fact that straight identity roleplay is permitted in the game while LGBT roleplay is not.

On RP servers or RP-oriented servers and guilds in most MMORPGs, RPed in-game marriages are fairly common. Consequently, a similar issue arose in DAOC a few years ago when a couple players attempted to have a gay marriage in game. Straight marriages in game were, as I say, nothing new at all. I'd attended a couple. There was even a player (very good RPer) on my server who specialised in presiding over marriages there. But much hullabaloo arose over whether an RP gay marriage ceremony should be permitted by the admins. After a great deal of ambiguity and fractiousness, the ceremony was permitted. But of course it had to be. Either you permit relationship RP and you permit gay RP, or you tell people outright, "all creatures in this world are asexual and incapable of romantic association of any kind - RP it that way". And while that's an equal solution, asexual civilisation really is a little hard to take in a conventional fantasy RP contexts. At least unless you give me a little backstory.

"Don't ask. Don't tell." -- Blizzard

[wbren]

While we appreciate and understand your point of view, we do feel that the advertisement of a GLBT friendly guild is very likely to result in harassment for players that may not have existed otherwise. If you will look at our policy, you will notice the suggested penalty for violating the Sexual Orientation Harassment Policy is to be temporarily suspended from the game. However, as there was clearly no malicious intent on your part, this penalty was reduced to a warning.

That reminds me of a notice I received from the East Cracktown Police Department:

"While we appreciate and understand your point of view, we do feel that parking your bright red 2006 Ferrari F430 Spider is very likely to result in the theft or vandalism of a car that may not have occured otherwise. If you look at our local and state laws, you will notice the suggested penalty for parking bright red sports cars in seedy neigborhoods is to temporarily jail you. However, as you are just an arrogant, rich prick, this penalty has been reduced to parole and 1000 hours of community services."

Seriously though, this situation is ridiculous. Blizzard is punishing the wrong people here. Harassment of any player (gays, lesbians, straights, americans, canadians, jews, muslims, etc) should not be tolerated. Blizzard apparently has a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy when it comes to diversity.

GBLT?

[RoadDoggFL]

Gravy, bacon, lettuce, tomato?

Eww...

Re:Blizzard is right!

[eurleif]

Because the alternative is playing and having to look at a male orc in a loin cloth.

Re:Not about rights...

[linzeal]

Are all neocons so philosophically unsophisticated or are you just intellectually lazy? This punishes a group that is actively harrased and demeaned in WOW 24/7 who only wished to form a safe haven from pricks like you and WOW punishes them by censoring their recruitment ingame. The story here is that pricks like you need to die off or shut up for civil rights to progress. Take your heterosexual once a week monogomous guilt sex and shove it.

Re:Not about rights...

[stienman]

Blizzard encourages players to report harrasment of any form. There aren't enough GMs to police every single chat message. They rely on player reporting.

And yes, using that type of language is against their terms of service.

So I don't believe your point is valid. If players aren't receiveing punishment it is not necessarily because Blizzard is actively deciding to let them slip by, it's because they don't have the resources to do it, and the players themselves are apathetic towards it.

This one chat message happened to have been caught. Do you think that this is the first advertisement for a GLBT group? This was a routine wrong place, wrong time, got caught language issue that has been blown out of control because so many people feel so strongly about the subject, one way or the other.

This is less about Blizzard's policy than it is about the media and militant people using this event to control their message and how it's portrayed by the media. How else are they going to get their message onto the front page of Slashdot?

-Adam

The Point

[Fireball394]

A lot of people miss the point. Thankfully, other slashdotters get it and have clarified the point in these comments. To me, it seems clear that Blizzard is trying to prevent people from fighting by preventing them from getting to know one another...but they're doing so inconsistently. "For your protection, we are not going to let you identify yourself as being gay." But not... "For your protection, we are not going to let you identify yourself as being xxxx." where xxxx is anything else that might make a person a target for harassment: Christian, Jewish, African-American, Muslim, French, female, etc. The guilds in question are not GLBT-exclusive. They don't prohibit heterosexuals from joining. They essentially have a code of conduct that they make clear in their recruitment efforts. Given the ubiquitous "ghey" and "fag" comments seen in every chat channel in the game, GLBT-Friendly translates to: "We do not tolerate harassment of GLBT people or slurs against them. If you cannot abide by this policy, don't even ask to join our guild. If this policy is acceptable, we welcome you." Why is that different from "We do not tolerate foul language in our guild channel, regardless of the built-in language filter."? It isn't about sex. It isn't about bigots. It isn't about religion. It's about Blizzard's vague and inconsistent application of their own policies in a manner that looks a heck of a lot like discrimination.

Give 'em their own server?

[mabu]

Why can't Blizzard give them their own server?

A very neat, meticulously-decorated, smartly-color-coordinated, sensitive and compassionate server?

Re:gays...

[Hymer]

I don't see bank robbers and child molesters running around making guilds or having parades... Probably because:

• what they do is against the law and they can't get out in public with it
• they are not proud of what they are

If you're going to live a lifestyle that is against nature, sinful and basically sick to the majority of the world then keep it to yourself and you won't have problems. the same books you are refering also tells you that people are not allowed to judge this, it is Gods business. ...and homosexuality is known behaviour among other species on this planet so it is not unnatural. ...and why do you think you are "the majority" ?

I sleep with girls and I'm a guy... If you really need to remind yourself of it, you probably are a gay who do not have the courage to accept it.
--
No, I'm not gay... I would however love to have a pair of good tits.

Re:Blizzard is not right

[JabberWokky]

Go ahead and start the big Straight Vs Gay war. It would be hilarious (Plus, I know which side would win).

You seem to make an assumption that I'm on a given side. I've been beaten while marching for gay rights and have an extensive collection of lingere and corsets in my size. Check out my listed website for a hint of my hobbies. I'm also a large hairy male who is getting married to someone who isn't XX this fall.

I'm all for gays being in game -- I'd love to see a guild of gay Tauren or a guild of Amazon lesbian warriors. And the players would be a mix of men and women who are of all sexual orientation in both sides. Because, in my eyes, they may have made the right decision for the wrong reasons, but it is *still* the right decision: A guild is a group of like minded characters, not a group of like minded players.

Then you would probably get some really good roleplaying going on.

You assume that the gay players are roleplaying gay characters -- how is it good roleplaying if one character is harassing a straight character because his player is gay? Besides, what if a gay player creates a character in the GBLT guild who is intolerant of gays? You're confusing player groups and in-game character groups.

--
Evan

Extreme example but...

[bortykins]

Giving blacks equal rights could result in racial slurs. As such, we shall continue enslaving them to maintain the family values of the community.

Re:Boo-Ya!!!

[Digital Vomit]

Of course, it IS from landover, but you didn't say it had to be a RELIABLE article

LOL. Okay, I'll formally state now that I won't accept "make-believe" evidence from a parody site. :-P

Way to blame the victims.

[Max Threshold]

If you do something that might cause a bunch of 13-year-old losers to sexually harass you, it's your own damn fault!

Yeah I agree..... NOT

[SmallFurryCreature]

Sure you can be a jew, just don't look like one okay. Because if you do well it is going to be trouble. Don't dress like muslim either. We can't be held responsible if you get lynched and you catholics better keep that cross under your clothing.

Oh and gays, no walking hand in hand, that might upset people. White and blacks kissing in public, no sorry, could lead to scenes.

What you suggest is a very slippery slope. You are giving in to the haters. How far are you prepared to give in? What race/religion/orientation can be told to keep quit before you will say enough? Or will you only cry out when it is you who is being told to behave.

No this stuff makes me sick. People like you in my eyes are worse then the open haters, I rather deal with ten neo-nazi's then with one person who says to not upset them.

Re:Yeah I agree..... NOT

[arakon]

Just wonder how you would feel about dealing with those 10 Neo nazis in a dark ally. It's not stupid to protect yourself from the hordes of idiots, miscreants, and others who are intent on doing harm to others they deem different. Currently I live in germany but there are a lot of hate groups that target Americans, steal cars, beat the shit out of us when we come out of a bar. It doesn't matter that I help my landlady every week by walking her dog or shoveling the snow off her driveway, I am a target because of what others in my country are doing/have done. Now do I go around flying a big American flag? Hell no because I am interested in keeping all my teeth and body-parts intact. If you know you are going into a rough neighborhood YOU DO NOT WEAR ALL THE JEWELRY YOU OWN! its common sense, so get off your damn high horse.

People are prejudice and insecure, that's just a fact of life, it's wrong but it's still there. There are constructive ways of dealing with it, but none of them are fast and usually require generations to work out. You aren't going to fix it with an online community built around WoW, you are simply creating a free target that the haters feel they can strike at with reasonable security. If we're lucky maybe our great-great grand children will get past these stupid biases, but I'm sure they'll have plenty more of their own. Human vs AI vs Clones vs Cyborgs... I think as long as we have a dynamic society that is changing there will be prejudice simply because a lot of people are afraid of change.

Re:Not Wise to an Audience of Homophobes

[Onan]

It's hard to think of a rationale that more clearly exemplifies the phrase "blaming the victim".

Everyone who has been part of an openly gay-friendly guild is very aware of how bigoted and homophobic some other players are. They don't need Blizzard's patronizing "concern" to warn them off; they know what they're getting into.

In fact, the awfulness of many other players is very likely exactly why these people have chosen to form or join a gay-friendly guild. They want a place where they can say things like "Sorry, can't play tomorrow, it's my boyfriend's birthday" in guild chat without getting that harrassment from their guildmates as well.

Bad move by blizzard

[SmallFurryCreature]

The very fact that people feel a need for a Gay Lesbian Bisexual Trans(gender/sexual) friendly guild in World of Warcraft (just so the people confused with acronyms know what this is all about) says enough about blizzard.

It is not a very "mature" place resulting in a very intollerant atmosphere. Not just of GLBT people either. WoW is more or less anonymous and this allows people to behave in ways that in real life would earn them a few broken teeth. Rather then do something about this Blizzard instead asks there the victims of the online bullies to keep quiet and not attract attention.

Nice move. Good to see the last 100 years of liberation of the individual was all for nothing. It is still only acceptable to be a while male protestant and everyone else should just be quiet.

What next Blizzard? Women who play your game and are harrased should not tell people they are really female?

People who claim that Blizzard owns WoW and can therefore do what it wants are living in a fantasy world. A MMO is closer to a social club and the law requires clubs to be open to anyone regardless of sex/religion/race/color/sexual orientation. A club that rejects women because they claim that they want to protect the women from being harrassed by their male members would find very little sympathy from the law.

This woman (presumable lesbian) wanted to create a guild that was friendly to people of a different sexuality then heterosexual. From other comments here it is pretty clear that WoW as a whole is not very friendly to that group. She did NOT want to make a guild for GLBT people only! She did not exclude hetero's.

It is sad that this is still needed in 2006. Very sad in fact that even in a place like Amsterdam wich used to be a really open place it is again becoming necessary to make sure GLBT people can feel safe.

Rather then dealing with the haters among its subscribers Blizzard seems to prefer the "don't rock the boat" attitude that made Amsterdam into the city it is today. And paris france. Don't speak out, keep quiet and hopefully the haters will go away. They never do.

I hope canadian lawmakers are watching this and taking the legal steps to get Blizzard in court and punished to hell and back.

Just what is canadian law on this subject? I would imagine that the sport of hockey has a large proportion of homophobic fans, how is this dealt with? Can a gay player be part of a team or is he hooted of the ice?

Ofcourse the slashdot audience consisting mostly of white hetero male christians is not exactly best fit to understand why there would be a need for a special guild for people who do not fit the so-called norm.

Re:Blizzard is not right

[Onan]

Guilds on non-rp servers are essentially just teams of players who have chosen to pool resources and work together.

In the case of WoW, they're mostly necessitated by the fact that most end-game contents requires groups of 20-40 players. So guilds exist to arrange which 40 players, of which mix of classes, with what equipment, supported by what crafting professions, will tackle given challenges. In larger cases, they sometimes have rigid organizational structures, ranks and rules for promotions, guild banks that lend money, and complex systems for determining in what order players get the equipment that these runs generate.

(If that sounds like a whole lot of no fun to you, we're agreed. I can't stand giant raids or giant raiding guilds. I play with a handful of real-world friends, and we only created a guild to stem the flood of people inviting us to join theirs.)

So they certainly exist in the absence of roleplaying, and they're just some combination of functional allies and friends.

Usually when people talk about wanting a gay-friendly guild, they simply want the ability to say racy things like "Sorry I can't play on Thursday, it's my boyfriend's birthday" without having to deal with 14-year-old-homophobia from their own guildmates.

good for them

[XO]

Good for them.

  So long as they apply it to everyone.

  I'm quite gay-friendly.

  Gay people have a tendency to bring their persecution down upon themselves.

  "LOOK AT ME!!!!! I'M GAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

  Then they wonder why people think they are assholes.