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Adobe Universal Binaries... in 2007

bo peterberg writes "According to a pdf on Adobe's website, they remain committed to supporting Intel-based Macs. However, Intel-based Macs will not be supported until the next upgrade of all creative products. The current version will not be re-released."

209 comments

  1. Go Aperture! by adavies42 · · Score: 2, Funny

    So much for LightTable destroying Aperture!

    --
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    -kfg
    1. Re:Go Aperture! by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Informative

      So much for LightTable destroying Aperture!

      Actually, LightTable is the exception. They announced they will have a beta of it available shortly. Now if only Apple would release a competitor to Photoshop, Illustrator, and Framemaker maybe they'd come out with new versions of those products as well.

    2. Re:Go Aperture! by CameronGary · · Score: 1

      I assume you mean Lightroom ... People seem to have a really hard time with this name. I've seen it called Lightbox, lighttable, etc.

    3. Re:Go Aperture! by iotashan · · Score: 1

      Techincally, it's not an exception. The next version of Lightroom will be a universial binary.

      Of course, the "next" version is actually the first release, but hey. :)

    4. Re:Go Aperture! by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      So much for LightTable destroying Aperture!

      Actually, Lightroom is expected to be Universal much sooner, as it is written largely in Lua, with the rest in Cocoa. Quite unlike the rest of Adobe's stuff.

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      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    5. Re:Go Aperture! by Fahrvergnuugen · · Score: 1

      It would be unwise for Apple to release a photoshop competitor. Look what happened to the Mac version of Premier when Apple released Final Cut Pro...

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    6. Re:Go Aperture! by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Funny

      It would be unwise for Apple to release a photoshop competitor. Look what happened to the Mac version of Premier when Apple released Final Cut Pro...

      You mean when Adobe killed it and most of the users migrated to Final Cut Pro, making Apple a lot of money?

    7. Re:Go Aperture! by jcr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Good point.

      Personally, I'd love to see anyone, whether it's Apple or somebody else, bring out an image editing program that uses CoreImage to its full potential.

      Photoshop is a relic, running in Adobe's home-grown Mac OS 7 compatibility environment. They can't even handle a floating-point frame buffer yet.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    8. Re:Go Aperture! by n8_f · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Exactly. The real reason they aren't switching over CS 2 is because they can't. They've been using CodeWarrior forever and they would probably still be putting off moving away from it if it wasn't for the fact that they have to in order to support Universal Binaries. It'll take them to 2007 just getting it to build correctly.

    9. Re:Go Aperture! by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even if that weren't the case, Adobe has no real financial incentive to do a rewrite of the current apps. From Adobe's point of view, it's much better to develop the next version and then satisfying all that pent up demand. For those that need to run PS (or whatever) NOW, Apple is still selling perfectly capable and speedy G5s (including a quad G5).

      I bought a G4 powerbook late last year, knowing there would be Intel powerbooks sometime this year. I don't mind waiting a rev. or two or even three, at which point I can buy a factory refurbed rev. 2 and not worry if the software has been ported.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    10. Re:Go Aperture! by Jozer99 · · Score: 1

      Makes sense to me. Photoshop is one of those programs Apple uses to show how much better the G5 was then the P4 and Athlon, so it must use a lot of optimized code with Altivec and stuff. If it were simple stuff, they could pretty much just recompile it, but now they will have to port the Windows version, which is optimized for SSE over to the Mac.

    11. Re:Go Aperture! by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Good point. Personally, I'd love to see anyone, whether it's Apple or somebody else, bring out an image editing program that uses CoreImage to its full potential. Photoshop is a relic, running in Adobe's home-grown Mac OS 7 compatibility environment. They can't even handle a floating-point frame buffer yet.

      No kidding. Its only now that Adobe is even getting their shit together enough to port their codebases to Xcode. If they had done this earlier, they would not have so much work ahead of them. (To be fair, these are incredibly complicated apps we are talking about.)

      And a true Core Image supported editing app would certainly be tasty. Apple takes pretty much all the glory for realtime manipulations like that so far... in fact I think a lot of the eye candy in OS X ('3D cube' user switching, 3D RSS screensaver, Ken Burns effect, etc) are there to egg devs on a bit, show them what the API can do. iPhoto's realtime adjustment palette in iLife 06 is very slick. And its sort of weird that Photoshop can't do some things like that.

      I don't know that much about the GIMP but I wonder if they would ever be able to take advantage of something like CI. There is portability to maintain...

      --
      If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    12. Re:Go Aperture! by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know that much about the GIMP but I wonder if they would ever be able to take advantage of something like CI. There is portability to maintain...

      Well, that really is the heart of the problem. Anyone who insists on doing a cross-platform image editor won't use the full capabilities of any platform.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    13. Re:Go Aperture! by bursch-X · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's why I'd shell out full-bloat-rip-me-off-and-sodomize-me just-as-adobe-does-prices for a full-blown Cocoa and Mac only Photoshop killer app. I REALLY WOULD!

      It's such a shame that the TIFFany3 developers never did anything with that application. The GUI was fubar, with some work on that app it could have left Photoshop dead in the water, but then again, it's them we have to thank for QuartzExtreme and CoreImage, so maybe it was a good thing after all that they got bought out by Apple.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    14. Re:Go Aperture! by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      Adobe has no real financial incentive to do a rewrite of the current apps. From Adobe's point of view

      Let's friggin hope Apple or another hardcore Cocoa developer is going to give them hell with a CoreImage enabled OS X only glory graphics editor. Now would be the best time to come up with something, because on Intel Macs Adobe's got nothing to counter them for another friggin year!

      Got your financial incentive right here buddy!

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    15. Re:Go Aperture! by jcr · · Score: 1

      The GUI was fubar

      I don't agree with you on that. It wasn't like photoshop, but it wasn't meant to be.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    16. Re:Go Aperture! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And by the time they are done with the port Apple have probably switched platform again to x86-64, shouldn't take long since x86 is at it's very end of the lifespan.

    17. Re:Go Aperture! by chibimagic · · Score: 1

      It's called Adobe Lightroom (not LightTable, Lightbox, Light-whatever) and beta 1 is out for Mac already. The beta expires June 2006, and the product will ship for Mac and Windows eventually.

  2. In other news... by Racher · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... Quark Inc. has announced the will create a universal binary of their flagship product QuarkXpress sometime before in 2070.

    1. Re:In other news... by sgant · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not sure if you're trying to be funny or what, but in case you didn't already hear, Steve Jobs singled out Quark in his keynote as already having a Universal Binary for QuarkXPress.

      Yeah, I was shocked as well.

      --

      "Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
    2. Re:In other news... by Racher · · Score: 1

      I didn't watch the keynote, but let me say.

      HOLY SH!T!

    3. Re:In other news... by jcr · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Quark really got their act together. I was impressed.

      Maybe they woke up and realized that they'd made a lot of people angry, and it was costing them money.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:In other news... by G-funk · · Score: 1

      Wow, I guess some companies really do learn :) I guess this tells us that Adobe thinks indesign won on merit, not Quark's refusal to port to OSX... Hehehehe.

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
    5. Re:In other news... by Princeofcups · · Score: 1, Insightful

      >Not sure if you're trying to be funny or what, but in case you
      >didn't already hear, Steve Jobs singled out Quark in his keynote as
      >already having a Universal Binary for QuarkXPress.

      If your app is 100% cocoa, then producing an Intel binary is as simple as a recompile. If your app is a crappy port from the Windows version with lots of carbon legacy code, then you will have a lot of rewriting to do.

      jfs

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    6. Re:In other news... by jcr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If your app is 100% cocoa, then producing an Intel binary is as simple as a recompile.

      Almost. I had a few developers who needed to tweak a few things to build for Intel, but most of them were done the first day of WWDC '05.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    7. Re:In other news... by lawnboy5-O · · Score: 2, Interesting

      well the fact that Adobe apps are not cocoa is significant then... XPress is already compiled with xCode; universal binary public will be posted in couple of weeks... light years ahead of Adobe product...

    8. Re:In other news... by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      I'd rather think that they took so long to get an OS X version out, because they had to rewrite a lot of their stuff in Cocoa and now it pays off. Kudos to them!

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    9. Re:In other news... by cygnus · · Score: 1

      this is totally inaccurate... you know you can inline assembly and plain C code in Objective-C, right? likewise, Finder, a Carbon app, has been building on Intel as part of the Marklar project for some time..

      --
      Just raise the taxes on crack.
    10. Re:In other news... by TheOldFart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not exactly. Not having anybody left and outsourcing the entire thing to India will do that to you. It took them that long to get the engineers in India up to speed in OSX.

  3. Planned obsolescence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Meaning, of course, you only get to move your already-bought licenses for photoshop to the new macs if you buy all new software. Lovely.

    1. Re:Planned obsolescence by jcostantino · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Except that you can deactivate your previously installed copy and install it on a new Mac.

      --
      Reviews with a twist! http://www.sardonicbastard.com
  4. Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by sgant · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is kind of a deal breaker for me, as I make my living using Photoshop to a VERY large degree. Using it with Rosetta may be "passable"...it's just not going to cut it in the long run. I was hoping that Adobe would have an upgrade for existing customers, but I guess not.

    Though they may change their minds, who knows. So much for upgrading this year. I suppose this will work out better in the end, as the Intel Macs will get a chance to mature a little more.

    --

    "Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
    1. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      Using it with Rosetta may be "passable"...it's just not going to cut it in the long run.

      My wife has an iMac, but we don't follow the details that closely. Have you actually seen Photoshop under emulation, or are you just speculating that it will be unusable for you? You may be 100% correct, but I don't know enough about it to make the call.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    2. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by sgant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lol, who was crying? I'm looking to possibly cross-grade, that's all. I was going to go for an Intel Mac, but now I just might wait. Wasn't crying about it, just stating a fact. And as I said, perhaps the Intel based makes and OSX will get a better "shake out" by the time I get around to actually cross-grading....if ever.

      Calm down sparky.

      --

      "Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
    3. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      I don't know, but I do know that Steve Jobs loved to do Photoshop plugin benchmarks to show how much faster mac photoshop was. Those plugins generally used altivec (if available), which rosetta doesn't support.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    4. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it does. When the iMac was released they changed their documentation to reflect the support of AltiVec by Rosetta.

    5. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Apple still makes G5's for people like yourself. If you have an old G4 go upgrade?

    6. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by notnAP · · Score: 1

      This is kind of a deal breaker for me, as I make my living using Photoshop to a VERY large degree. Using it with Rosetta may be "passable"...it's just not going to cut it in the long run.
      Same here, though the conclusion will differ. I am sitting in front of a 400MHz G3 iMac, and just finished filling out my tax forms. The sizable refund will be going towards a Mac and a PC (PC for both Windows and Linux toying). I was really excited about going for an iMacintel, though I was also wondering how tempted I would be by the drop in G5 prices I expected to see. When none occured, I wondered. I think we are now seeing why.
      The Ars Technica tests were interesting. Rosetta is great, but not that great. It really will be nothing more than a crutch to help those who are willing and able to stay cutting edge get along until the vendors get up to date.
      the eprformance hits are not slight. And hence, I think we are now understanding why Apple can still charge just as much for their G5 iMacs as their Intel iMacs, despite the "twice as many clock cycles per buck" argument.
      So for many, this may be an incentive to stay away until the Macintel version 2.0 series of pooters come out. For myself, who was recently laid off and therefore separated from real computers sans his rinkydinky G3 iMac, and who has the luxury of a wad of cash coming his way, I think it means I'll be among the last wave of G5 buyers.
      by the way... can I have a job?

    7. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "You can very easily buy a PPC Mac this year. Stop your unfounded crying."

      Translation: I love Apple and I don't want to hear good reasons for some to avoid them.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    8. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by (H)elix1 · · Score: 1

      Nuts. A big 'me too' on this one. I've kicked around the idea of a mac since the minimac came out, but was waiting for the shift to x86 before I made the plunge. Recently got a chance to use a g4 for a few months due to work, and my wife had a chance to get a feel for the OS. Seems fine, got the blessing to move forward.

      For my bride's computer, the only real thing that matters is her Adobe CS2 suite. I talked to Adobe about the time I upgraded to CS2, and they would (more or less) let you change from Win32 to OSX if you wanted to with a few restrictions/activation caveats. I'm not interested in trying the emulation thing, so will probably end up adding more RAM to what was intended to be a transitional box and move with CS3 (or whatever they call it).

    9. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by ChrisKnight · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even after I knew the Intel Macs were coming, I chose to invest in a Dual-Processor Dual-Core G5. Why throw money at the platform that is guaranteed to be phased out?

      I worked through the transition from 680x0 to PowerPC. I worked through the transition of OS 9 to OS X. These transitions are NEVER easy. I chose to get the most power I could out of the platform that currently works best. I'll wait to get an Intel Mac until they are well into year two of general use, and only after my must-have applications have had at least one set of bug fixes released to their Universal Binary versions. :)

      -Chris

      --
      -- This sig is only a test. If this were a real sig it would say something witty. --
    10. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Macrat · · Score: 1

      Translation: I love Apple and I don't want to hear good reasons for some to avoid them.

      Don't be an asshat. The point of the post is that Adobe has always used Apple's transitions to screw over customers. When Apple came out with MacOS X, it took Adobe around 2 years to finally update their releases. And again before that when the hardware went from 68K chips to PPC.

    11. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's exactly why I got a G5 iMac this summer (2.0Ghz, non-iSight), because I knew that the PPC Photoshop that I'd be buying with it would work well on that platform. I didn't get a PowerMac G5 because I figured I'd get 3 years out of the iMac, vs. 4 years out of the PMG5, and by the time my 3 years was up, Photoshop would be fully native, and there would be enough features that I'd want to get a newer version, (I tend to skip a version or two). Lots of people wondered why I got the iMac this summer when I knew that Macintels were on the way, and now I feel fairly vindicated. I had a feeling that Adobe would drag their heels on upgrading.

    12. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by ayeco · · Score: 1

      "worked through the transition from 680x0 to PowerPC. I worked through the transition of OS 9 to OS X"

      That's exactly what's wrong with Apple. the drastic changes.
      That's also what's wrong with Microsoft, unwilling to make changes. Legacy support makes life hard for msoft.

    13. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 0

      "The point of the post is that Adobe has always used Apple's transitions to screw over customer."

      Oh yes, I'm quite sure Adobe is printing out fat wads of cash by telling their customers they can't use the latest and greatest hardware.

      BTW, some people (like me) actually do make a living using Photoshop. When I say "Make a living", I mean "it puts food on the table". It's hardly crying or being an 'asshat' to say "If this configuration don't work, I can't use it." Non-issue, indeed. The earliest I can reasonably be a Mac user is 2007. You can paint Yosemite Sam'ish caricatures of Adobe if you like, but the reality is that CPU migrations suck. Adobe didn't make that decision.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    14. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Macrat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The earliest I can reasonably be a Mac user is 2007.

      You're pretty dense to be a Photoshop user. You just don't get it. Maybe the result of using Windows.

      You can buy a PowerPC based Mac TODAY and you can buy Adobe software for a PowerPC based Mac TODAY. Where do you get this idea that you can't be a Mac user TODAY?

      Adobe didn't make that decision.

      Adobe made the decision not to recompile their existing release for Intel Macs. Apple has had the documentation out for making the universial binaries since last summer. Waiting to compile the future release into universal binaries is Adobe's decision.

      Many other software developers had their software updated and ready before Apple even released an Intel Mac.

      That's the reality and there are many Mac users you can help you get up and running TODAY. Not 2007.

    15. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 0

      "Where do you get this idea that you can't be a Mac user TODAY?"

      Me? Where'd YOU get that idea? Heh. Speaking of dense... I'm interested in the Mac now that it's on Intel. Derrrrrr.

      "Waiting to compile the future release into universal binaries is Adobe's decision." ...which they're being forced to make because of Apple. Again, CPU mirgrations suck. Time, resources, yadda yadda yadda.

      "That's the reality and there are many Mac users you can help you get up and running TODAY. Not 2007."

      Your attempt to make me look foolish backfired.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    16. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      That's not a "translation", it's an entirely different sentence in the same language. Trying to put words in someone else's mouth is a rather lame rhetorical device.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    17. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "Trying to put words in someone else's mouth is a rather lame rhetorical device."

      Willful ignorance and blind zealotry are not superior traits.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    18. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      Actually it does now. It didn't intially, though. Get your facts straight.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    19. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what's wrong with Apple. the drastic changes.
      That's also what's wrong with Microsoft, unwilling to make changes. Legacy support makes life hard for msoft.


      Now which way is it? You can't have it both ways. Apple is bad, because they make drastic changes, Microsoft is bad because they don't. WTF...

      I think Apple is perfectly right to make drastic changes. It hurts, but changes always do and this benefits us and technology as a whole in the long rung. It sure beats building cruft over cruft and just bloating everything for so-called backwards compatibility that never really is.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    20. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      Do you imagine that you're making any point, by tossing out a non-sequitur?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    21. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "Do you imagine that you're making any point, by tossing out a non-sequitur?"

      I made it, then you illustrated it. Good job.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    22. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Methuseus · · Score: 1

      I think he's saying each company sucks for their own reason. Maybe someone can make a middle ground instead?

      Not saying it's feasible, but I'd like to think someone might at least try.

      --
      Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, though I'm not yet sure about the universe. - A Einstein
    23. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by John+Nowak · · Score: 1

      You're right. They should be putting 68050s in the new iMacs. What are they thinking?

    24. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      I made it, then you illustrated it. Good job.

      You don't win an argument simply by proclaiming that you have.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    25. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 0, Troll

      "You don't win an argument simply by proclaiming that you have."

      You can't erase mistakes you've made by trying to bait me down another discussion.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    26. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everything I've read the last five years in Mac forums tells me that x86 can't emulate PPC with any speed at all. Nobody have to try it, x86 just suck at emulating.

    27. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by orgchartleafnode · · Score: 1
      Though they may change their minds, who knows.

      Don't hold your breath.

      They would ship earlier if possible but this is the best business decision for Adobe. It will take a huge effort to move years of code out of CodeWarrior and into Xcode. Perhaps they should have started that process when it was clear CW was dead instead of waiting for Apple's Intel announcement last summer to force their hand, but that doesn't change where they are today.

      They could devote enourmous resources to migrating the OS X version of CS2 over to Intel and then charge customers what? From the customer perspective, they already purchased the existing product and wont' want to pay more. Apple is charging $49 for crossgrades and is getting grief for it.

      Worse still, by putting their resources on going universal they would end up pushing out CS3 on Mac AND Intel thus delaying the next upgrade cycle. (They could split their team between MS and OS X but then how would you feel having CS3 on Windows and CS2 on OS X? The current plan is much cleaner from a development perspective and mitigates the risk on future revenue.

      If you really need native CS2 on OS X with fast h/w pick up a PPC system while you still can.

    28. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Your attempt to make me look foolish backfired.

      Um... No... It didn't!

    29. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      What mistake do you claim I've made?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    30. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um... Yes... It did!

      Sorry bub, even though you did make an interesting point, you shot yourself in the foot with two of the other points you tried to make. If the mods had any sense of reason, they would have modded your posts down instead of up.

    31. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Take a guess.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    32. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      Your claim, your burden of proof.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    33. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      I've already drawn attention to it once. It's pretty obvious, anyway. Fascinating how people would rather argue than see their own mistakes.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    34. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      re:"can I have a job"

      Kind of obvious - but if you're in the tech market in the Bay Area and you haven't been hitting Craigslist, you should be slapped across the back of the head. I'm getting callbacks two hours after posting a handfull of resumes in my contracting work. Most want me full-time, but for those I use the magic phrase "contract to hire availability".

      Between the outflow of labor in the last 4 years in the SF area and the new crush of startups I'm predicting a labor crunch in about 8 months time. I've got more work than I can handle anyway - or want to.

    35. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      I've already drawn attention to it once.

      Nope, you've just said it's there. Support your claim, if you can.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    36. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "Nope, you've just said it's there."

      Heh. "I can't hear you! Lalalaalalaala!"

      "Support your claim, if you can."

      Yeah yeah, I know this game. I point it out, you argue with me, then we go down a seperate rat hole that you won't climb out of until you've 'won' something. I don't feel like playing AssDot today. So, instead, I have a challenge for you: Find what I'm talking about. Can you actually explore your own behaviour, or do you simply need me to answer your question so you can shout "Nuh uh!!"? I personally think you're afraid to give me any credibility, but you're an otherwise intelligent person so maybe you'll surprise me.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    37. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My understanding is that Rosetta does not emulate, it translates. Big difference. The reason it's always been said that PPC emulation is so slow on x86 is because PPC has many more registers. If an x86 cpu is running a true PPC emulator, that emulator is going through all the motions of being a real PPC processor, down to the registers and everything else. Emulating that many registers on a CPU with far fewer means lots of slow copying of data in and out, in and out... Huge performance hit. Look at PearPC for an example.

      In contrast, Rosetta translates PPC instructions into x86 instructions. So presumably if a set of PPC instructions uses a bunch of registers simultaneously, that is translated into a completely different set of x86 instructions that give the same final result without needing any more registers than x86 has. Frankly, I'm quite impressed that the company that developed Rosetta (is it Transitive or something like that?) did such an outstanding job. A 1.83 GHz Core Duo achieving similar speeds to a 1 GHz G4 (remember this was a pretty good machine just 3 years ago) with Rosetta is pretty freaking phenomenal.

    38. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      Hey dude, you painted yourself into this corner. Go off on tangents if you want, but you still haven't shown me an error on my part.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    39. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In your own words, Macrat, don't be an asshat.

      Adobe made the decision not to recompile their existing release for Intel Macs.

      Wrong. Adobe made the decision not to waste thousands upon thousands, upon thousands of man-hours migrating their existing code from CodeWarrior to Xcode. I guarantee a project the size of CS2 will have tens of thousands of issues -- some small, some large -- when migrating both development environment and compiler. Not to mention processor architecture! Even if they could just rip core routines from the Windows version to support Mac/Intel, that's still a lot of integration work. This is no small task, and it makes a hell of a lot more sense to fold it into development of the next version.

      Your attitude suggests that either Adobe only has to spend a few hours checking boxes and recompiling (which would imply you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about) or that they should take the hit on development costs and schedule to give a handful of Intel early adopters a universal CS2. Which is ludicrous. Maybe if the Intel transition had been a result of their own screwup, it would be right for them to do this and make the crossgrade "free". But no, the Intel transition came completely from Apple, and it was a huge load of extra work dumped on them through no fault of their own. An Intel-native binary for the Mac is very much a new feature, and as such should go into the next version.

      To suggest that Adobe chose not to throw away millions of dollars of development money or take a schedule hit so they could screw over customers is to be an asshat, Macrat. Don't be an asshat.

    40. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      Yeah yeah, I know this game. I point it out,

      I took you to task for putting words in another poster's mouth with your "translation:" snark. You responded with a non-sequitur. You then claimed some error on my part, which you have yet to state. Simply repeating your claim that I've made a mistake, without describing the mistake, does not support your claim, even if you do turn the snottiness up a notch on each iteration.

      You want to put an end to this, simply state what mistake you believe I've made.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    41. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      I'm impressed that you actually went back and looked at stuff. However, s'not good enough. Read it again, and this time comprehend what I was saying. Then, once you've done that, come back and tell me why you think I think you made a mistake.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    42. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      Read it again, and this time comprehend what I was saying.

      I have no trouble with comprehension. You can either come right out and say what you mean, or continue to be a pompous git. Your choice.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    43. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "I have no trouble with comprehension.'

      Hence your unwillingness to demonstrate it?

      "You can either come right out and say what you mean, or continue to be a pompous git. Your choice."

      I might feel threatened by this ultimatum if you weren't trying so desperately to cling to 'victory'. Pity. T'was such a simple question.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    44. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      You're a chick, aren't you? This whole exchange is just an extended, standard "if you don't know, I won't tell you" passive-aggression exercise.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    45. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "You're a chick, aren't you?"

      Hahaha. Sorry, that wasn't the magic combination of words that'd make me lose my cool. That wasn't a bad attempt, though, I'll give you that.

      *sigh* Such a simple request.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    46. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      Sorry, that wasn't the magic combination of words that'd make me lose my cool.

      Project much?

      Why would you assume that I'm trying to make you lose your cool?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    47. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Hehe. Cute. "I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything!"

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    48. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by Maserati · · Score: 1

      I got hands-on with Photoshop (briefly) on an Intel iMac at MacWorld. The interface is responsive, but CPU intensive stuff like the half-dozen random filters I tried was slower than on the dual G5 I have on my desk. The MacBooks have a very similar architecture and slightly slower CPUs, so I'd say they'd be juuust a little worse than the iMac. Of course, everything native will scream so if you aren't in CS all day then it might work out.

      Until CS goes native it will be a Creative Director's machine and not an Art Director's (if your industry uses that terminology, I'm in advertising). The CDs work extensively in CS but also have to spend a lot of time with with email, project websites, scripts in Word and budgets in Excel (Office is fine in emulation). The performance hit from running CS in Rosetta is, after all, in comparison to a dual G5 not a single G4. Rosetta is reported to like a lot of RAM, so a MacBook with 4 GB should be a marked performance increase over a G4 PowerBook.

      --
      Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
    49. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by notnAP · · Score: 1

      I'm in Metro Boston, but I have discovered Craigslist to be very helpful here as well. In my case, I'm not as good a fit for the typical Craigslist poster - my IT skills are a little more niche oriented in the printing and graphics industry, and I'm specifically looking for full time, perm positions owing to being the primary parent of two young children.
      But the advice is valid, and should be passed on to everyone. Monster has some value, sure, but it's flooded nowadays. Many HR people simply ignore the mass resume mailings Monster generates for them. Craigslist is a jewel.
      But then, nothing beats networking, and perhaps nothing ever will.

    50. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      Ah, another non-sequitur. You have now made two unsupported assertions. I will state, for the record, that making you angry is not my purpose. If I had a purpose in this exchange, it was to make you look ridiculous, but you've done a far better job of that than I could have hoped to do.

      So, to recap: you took a cheap shot at another poster, with a lame, high-school style "translation" put-down. I took you to task for it. You then claimed some error on my part, which you then failed repeatedly to state, choosing instead to resort to an affectation of superiority, with your claim that I was not comprehending when in fact you were simply dodging the question.

      I inferred that you are female, because every time I have encountered the "if you don't know, I won't tell you" game, its perpetrator was a high-school chick, or (sadly), an older woman who never progressed beyond that stage.

      So, here again is the question: what error do you claim I have made? (Answer it or don't, but if you don't answer it, your claim remains unsubstantiated, and your credibility erodes even further.)

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    51. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "I inferred that you are female, because every time I have encountered the "if you don't know, I won't tell you" game, its perpetrator was a high-school chick, or (sadly), an older woman who never progressed beyond that stage."

      Ha!! The irony of this is soooo amusing.

      "(Answer it or don't, but if you don't answer it, your claim remains unsubstantiated, and your credibility erodes even further.)"

      I'll be happy to once you actually take a stab at working out where you think I think you made the mistake. I think you know exactly what it is considering the extra lengths you've gone to try to get me off that topic.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    52. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by nickmdf · · Score: 1

      Wow, I could have wrote that email.
      I live in SF, been coding web apps since 1999, and have been
      having the exact same experience this year.

    53. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by jcr · · Score: 1

      I'll be happy to once you actually take a stab at working out where you think I think you made the mistake

      Once again, you dodge the question. Your credibility now stands at nil.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    54. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "Once again, you dodge the question."

      Funny, that doesn't sound much like an answer to my question.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    55. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by gig · · Score: 1

      Apple announced the change to Intel at WWDC June 2005 and then over the next six months, sales of PowerPC Macs were UP by 22%. Steve Jobs said "we're phasing out PowerPC" and yet sales of PowerPC systems went UP. This is because if you are using Photoshop (or similar Mac software) all day you need a PowerPC Mac now and for about another year or so.

      I bought a new PowerPC Mac in late 2005. That is the hardware my software wants.

      I was one of the people who got into Mac OS X a little too early in retrospect, so after this new transition was announced I got me some of the best of the last and now I'm going to hunker down for 18 months and then at that point I'll see where things are at. By then it is likely that all my software will be available in new versions, all of which are Intel-ready. I'll upgrade from G5-CS2 to Intel-CS3 and won't batt an eyelash.

    56. Re:Guess I won't be buying a Mac this year then. by gig · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine was telling me recently how the 64-bit MS Windows really flies compared to 32-bit Windows, because Microsoft cleared out so much cruft. But then again Win-64 has no drivers and is not the vendor's primary OS and who knows when it will be. Mac OS X Tiger is Mac OS without the old cruft, but Mac OS X has drivers, and it is the main operating system of the platform and has been for a few years now. So which would you really rather have? Microsoft is not so much supporting legacy stuff as they are just stuck in the mud.

      Apple builds these bridges so that the application platform and the userbase can migrate to future technologies. The first Mac OS X had a built-in way of running legacy apps (Classic), and the first Mac OS X for Intel has a built-in way of running legacy apps (Rosetta), but for most users they never notice this. They just get a new system every few years and it comes with tons of great software and they add one or two major packages (Photoshop or MS Office) and they are remarkably happy with their computers.

      Me, I bought some new PowerPC Macs late last year and so by the time I want to trade them in for newer Macs with Intel chips in them, the software will all have caught up and I'll have all-native versions on the first day.

      Also, keep in mind that if you buy an Intel Mac today, it comes with all-native software on it. It has Mac OS X (of course) and all the apps that come with that, as well as iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, iWeb) and some others. Many people can get everything done with just that and that is who these first Intel systems are for. They are six months ahead of schedule so it is not surprising the software is not all caught up, but even so you have some great applications already running natively.

  5. I was afraid of this.... by SleepyHappyDoc · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How many companies are going to use the Intel transition to force paid upgrades? I can see some companies offering a 'special deal', pay $X for the universal binary edition, so it'll actually run on your new computer. Sort of a variation on the DVD re-release double-dip, except with a gun to the (figurative) head. (and no, I know they don't force you to buy their software, but if you're a graphics artist in a Mac only shop, your IT department will have to buy you Photoshop for Intel Mac, whenever your machine gets upgraded).

    Looks like windfall time for Mac software vendors.

    --
    Stasis is death. Embrace change.
    1. Re:I was afraid of this.... by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Actually, they won't have to re-buy you Photoshop for Intel Mac. Rosetta allows the old version to work, at least in theory, with caveats.

      They admit it'll run slower, but they don't provide numbers, so I'll be curious to see if it's gun-to-the-head-must-upgrade slower, or just "hey, this isn't quite as snappy as it used to be" slower. The caveat is that Version Cue Workspace Server doesn't work at all. I wonder if they can patch that.

      It's still a windfall for Mac software vendors.

    2. Re:I was afraid of this.... by Mr.+Sane · · Score: 1

      Some companies (like Adobe) are spending many months converting their programs to XCode, and then many more months testing to ensure compatibility with both the Power PC and Intel versions.

      How would you like them to be compensated for their efforts?

      Remember, it was Apple that made the switch to Intel -- not Adobe.

    3. Re:I was afraid of this.... by Echnin · · Score: 1

      A Slashdot story posted earlier had some benchmark numbers comparing Photoshop on the Intel iMac to a G5 model. IIRC they were surprisingly "acceptable". Some operations took a very long time - such as resizing I think was one - but overall I think you could live with it. Drawing from this, I'd imagine a MacBook Pro wouldn't do very badly compared to a PowerBook G4.

      --
      Lalala
    4. Re:I was afraid of this.... by jbarlow · · Score: 2, Informative

      "but if you're a graphics artist in a Mac only shop, your IT department will have to buy you Photoshop for Intel Mac, whenever your machine gets upgraded"

      It's funny. I work in a printshop, and we have to upgrade the minute something new comes out anyway, since someone out there always has the newest version. Our main production machines have CS, CS2, AI8/10, PS6/7, PM6/7, InD2, and QXP4/6 all installed at the same time. Just sayin'.

    5. Re:I was afraid of this.... by shmlco · · Score: 1

      Especially if one were upgrading from a TiBook or early AlBook.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    6. Re:I was afraid of this.... by G-funk · · Score: 1

      Dear Apple,

      You have till june to light a fire under adobe, or I won't be buying your $5000 laptop.

      Sincerely,
      g-funk.

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
    7. Re:I was afraid of this.... by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      If you worked in software developement you'd probably be a bit more understanding. A) Adobe has to convert all their code to xcode and B) all their products would then have to go through a full QA cycle (this is no small task). By the time thats done the next version will be out anyhow. Why not convert all the code to xcode, put all the new features in and do the QA for these products and release - thats a much smoother product cycle.

      It really is a case of either develope new versions which will be universal binaries or do maintainence on older versions. Take your pick. I think most users (and Adobe's stock holders) rather have new versions with new features and put off buying a new Intel mac for a year rather than have the same version of the software in the same amount of time.

    8. Re:I was afraid of this.... by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      Exactly I've got an AlBook 17" 1.0GHz and I'm used to its speed. I think it's acceptable. Now I guess the new MacBook Pro will--even with Rosetta used for some apps--be a bit zippier, even with Photoshop running under Rosetta. Why? It's double the clockspeed PLUS a dual core. Even if Rosetta would run at 1/3 of native speed it would still be zippier than what I have now.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    9. Re:I was afraid of this.... by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      How would you like them to be compensated for their efforts?

      Even with CS2 most professional designers I know don't inted to buy the upgrade. Why? Not enough incentive to do so.
      Guess what would be the compensation for Adobe for their efforts to come up with a UB version? How about finally having tons of people upgrade, because they finally get a real reason to do so.

      Right now the only incentive to upgrade are shitty NEW FEATURES, of CS2 like improvements to a file browser no one wants and needs, or yet another bulk of filters (I got better ones and more in CoreImage dammit) and one-click-functions geared towards the technologically challenged to enhance pictures in a way a pro would not be satisfied with anyway. Yawn.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    10. Re:I was afraid of this.... by bursch-X · · Score: 4, Funny

      Dear G-funk,

      We don't have $5000 laptops.
      But we'd be delighted to charge you double on our top model to get to a price of just a little less than 5000$.

      Sincerely,
      Steve Jobs
      CEO, Apple

      P.S.:
      Fuck Adobe.
      Watch for PhotoShopMyAss Pro 1.0 coming out soon from Apple

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    11. Re:I was afraid of this.... by capologist · · Score: 1

      PhotoShopMyAss

      Sounds like a Fark PhotoShop contest.

    12. Re:I was afraid of this.... by G-funk · · Score: 1

      There's a world outside the US, dumbass. Macbook + decent speed drive + 2gb + applecare (my mates have apples, you're a fool not to buy it) == $5,194

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
    13. Re:I was afraid of this.... by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 0, Troll
      There's a world outside the US, dumbass. Macbook + decent speed drive + 2gb + applecare (my mates have apples, you're a fool not to buy it) == $5,194

      You're a fool anyway; you would have bought 2 gigs of RAM from Apple. Not exactly the best price, dumbass.

      Extra dumbass points for not running out your original 1-year warranty almost completely, since you can buy AppleCare anytime during that period and begin the extended warranty then.

      p.s. if you're gonna troll, and you get owned that badly - at least learn to stay down, ferchrissakes.

      --
      If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    14. Re:I was afraid of this.... by bursch-X · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yo, Einstein, I happen to be a German living in Tokyo. Is that outside of the US enough for you, genius? Now bear with me, because let's just do the math just for fun.

      I just checked out http://www.kakaku.com/ a site which lists the lowest prices of everything and their dog in Japan. The 1.8 GHz MacBook Pro goes for 290850 yen, (no, we don't buy from the Apple Store, duh!). Then we get kick-ass hardrive (no, not from the friggin Apple Store, ok). Any Fujitsu goes below 20000 yen, but just not having you bitch and moan that I was cheating let's make that a flat 20000 yen for the drive. Then I'm goin to buy 2x1GB RAM (PC2 5300) the lowest price is at 14980 yen per 1GB, but just so you can't say we're cheating or whatever I'll take the next higher price listed at 26040. Add it all up and we get a whopping 362930 yen, which accounts for US $ 3069, hmm doesn't at all look like 5000 bucks to me and this price here INCLUDES TAX.

      Oh, you say Apple Care.... I think Apple Care is for pussies ;-)), but if you insist, we end up somewhere around 3300 bucks or so. It still isn't $ 5000. Hmmm... And don't forget, Tokyo used to be the city with the highest cost of living all over the fucking globe for many years consecutively (they're number two right now). And even in the highly taxed Europe you won't get as expensive as 5000 bucks.

      So please stop telling anyone the new MacBook pros fully equipped will cost about $ 5000, because you've got to admit, you just pulled that number out of your ass, knowing it was completely off-base and are now trying to cover up talking about international pricing yaddayadda, thinking I was some provincial idiot from Fuckasuckalucka county somewhere in Wyoming you could impress with such pseudo-polyglotisms..

      Q.E.D.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    15. Re:I was afraid of this.... by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      Sorry to disappoint you, but it doesn't matter when you buy Apple care. All it does is extend your warranty from 1 year to 3 years counting from the day of initial computer purchase, so it doesn't matter when you get AppleCare, the period of coverage is always the same. Just make sure you get it while you still have a warranty.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    16. Re:I was afraid of this.... by G-funk · · Score: 1

      because you've got to admit, you just pulled that number out of your ass, knowing it was completely off-base and are now trying to cover up talking about international pricing yaddayadda

      No fuckhead, I got that price from apple.com.au. And no I wouldn't buy an apple from some bloke in Japan. WTF?? I've seen apple products that go bad before (mate's powerbook, GFs ipod, etc). It's hard enough to get shit fixed by the local guys without applecare, and I dunno about your average german, but I speak a lot more japanese than your average aussie, and it's not enough to get a PC fixed. Apple hardware is awesome when it's good, and when it dies it dies _hard_. My mate took ages to get his g4 fixed when the 10.3 utils disk pwn3d his hdd. He used to work for apple, and knows the "magic code" to switch from dickhead phone service to actual mac techs.

      And before you arc up: yes, there is an employee-only code you can type in after calling apple service that gets you to people who actually know what they're on about.

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
    17. Re:I was afraid of this.... by gellenburg · · Score: 1

      Looks like he's quoting AU$. AU$5000 = US$3760.

      So technically it doesn't cost US$5000, and only US$3760, but then again, a Vegamite sandwich goes for AU$3.92 as opposed to US$2.50 so it's all relative. ;-)

    18. Re:I was afraid of this.... by MamiyaOtaru · · Score: 1

      That could be construed as somewhat insulting to Wyoming. Luckily only 3 of us read Slashdot.

    19. Re:I was afraid of this.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's vegemite.

    20. Re:I was afraid of this.... by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      I was just listening to too much Pacific Coast Hellway*. Sorry. But I wasn't aware that all of the three people who can read in Wyoming actually are on slashdot ;-))

      *That's a podcast, In case you don't know it.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    21. Re:I was afraid of this.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still tastes horrible.

    22. Re:I was afraid of this.... by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      I mentioned Japan a) because I live there and b) because you just said, outside the US. You didn't specify any other location, so I went with prices in Japan, because I thought they're as good as any (especially because Japan tends to be rather on the expensive side), and because I live there. Now if you would have bothered to tell us you're talking Australian dollars which naturally inflates the numbers we wouldn't have had an argument to begin with, but I digress...

      I've proven to you that with all the features you wanted I can get a Mac for US $3300 +/- a few bucks depending on whether you get the lowest prices or not. But nowhere near $5000. Case closed. I'm right, you're wrong.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    23. Re:I was afraid of this.... by Maserati · · Score: 1

      Well sure it's more expensive, Apple doesn't manufacture (ok, assemble) in Australia so there's extra freight costs to consider. And your currency is backed by kangaroo pelts and the word "cunt" so you should be used to being ripped off on imports by now.

      --
      Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
  6. 64 bit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The first IntelMacs use 32 bit CPUs, but Intel will release 64 bit version of the CPU later this year. Will these first IntelMacs be obsoleted? OS X for the Intel CPUs will obviously go to 64 bit --- need it for the PowerMacs as their power users won't want to lower memory capacity. Maybe Adobe and other third party software vendors see this situation and prefer to just wait and do only 64 bit Intel native binaries?

    1. Re:64 bit? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Unless intel and/or apple deviate dramatically from the existing methods for supporting 32 bit binaries on a 64 bit system, the only thing that will happen to your 32 bit intel/mac binaries is that they'll run a little slower than the 64 bit ones, on the same system, and they may even run faster on the new system than they do on the current one - if intel can get their shit together to the same degree as AMD, that is.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:64 bit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, but the question is will Adobe simply skip making 32 bit Intel binaries all together and only release 64 bit ones? Then owners of the 32 bit Intel machines would be stuck with using PowerPC binaries and Rosetta. In a year or so, 64 bit Intel Macs will greatly out number 32 bit Intel Macs...

    3. Re:64 bit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will these first IntelMacs be obsoleted?

      No. Intel's newer 64-bit chips will run 32-bit code just the same. Mac OS X itself is almost entirely 32-bit anyway.

    4. Re:64 bit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will these first IntelMacs be obsoleted?

      Yes, in all likelyhood. Apple has a long history of releasing Macs (and before that, Apple II's) with CPUs that become obsolete in only 6 or 7 years.

      A friend of a friend of my cousin's coworker's brother said Steve plans to release a Mac in 2009 that will never become obsolete.

    5. Re:64 bit? by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 1
      The first IntelMacs use 32 bit CPUs, but Intel will release 64 bit version of the CPU later this year. Will these first IntelMacs be obsoleted? OS X for the Intel CPUs will obviously go to 64 bit --- need it for the PowerMacs as their power users won't want to lower memory capacity. Maybe Adobe and other third party software vendors see this situation and prefer to just wait and do only 64 bit Intel native binaries?

      Short answer: not really.

      Slightly longer: even G3 class chips still do pretty well under Tiger. And most software really doesn't/won't have a point in going to 64bit for a while yet, its just not necessary for a great many tasks. So if you are looking at a 3 year window of use before you upgrade (seems average), then Adobe's apps will have been ported 6-12 months prior and had their first round of bugfixes when you buy a 64bit Core Whatever. And 4GB of RAM is not that big a limtiation at the moment.

      If you read the linked PDF in the story, it mentions they are porting to Xcode, so they are a compile away from different CPU architectures once they get there. Even Altivec will see new code for awhile as it autovectorizes the flux capacitor and whatnot (shut up.)

      Having said that, I am typing this on a dual G5 that I plan on keeping until we are at least one full product-line revision into the new machines. Whenever they change the case on the tower unit. (Oh god, its going to be a "Mac Pro", isn't it. Boo.)

      --
      If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    6. Re:64 bit? by Axel2001 · · Score: 1

      Oh god, its going to be a "Mac Pro", isn't it. Boo.

      Well, according to this article, you may be correct.

  7. No Surprises Here! by macentric · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are no real surprises here. This is very similar to how they transitioned Photoshop and Illustrator to Mac OS X several years ago. My main hopes are that CS3 is not living half in two worlds like they did with Illustrator 10 and Photoshop 7.

    On the bright side, if Adobe keeps up the status quo on Creative Suite 3 then we will see all of the Apps that ship in Creative Suite, ship together. Acrobat 5 was horrible on Mac OS X, the Acrobat application ran natively in OS X, but the distiller ran in Classic and suffered severe performance penalties as a result. Hopefully all of the apps tranistioning around the same time will leave a better taste in their customers mouths.

    I am glad to see them attempting to show off their xCode developemtn prowess by delivering the LightRoom beta earlier than their other software packages.

  8. DEAL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We better get used to this!

    I think most major applications will end up not going universal until their next major revisions. Office and Adobe are already announcing it, and I bet you there are lots more to follow with this news.

  9. Re:Please Label PDF links! by ChristTrekker · · Score: 2, Informative

    Mozilla/Firefox: TargetAlert.

    CSS3 compliant browser: a[href$=".pdf"]:after {content: "[PDF]"; font-size:smaller} in your user style sheet. Modify as needed for other types of "annoying" links.

  10. Re:Please Label PDF links! by metamatic · · Score: 2, Informative

    Quit whining and install one of the plugins that labels non-HTML links for you.

    Or uninstall the Acrobat plug-in from your browser, so the browser will ask you whether you want to open the PDF, download it, or cancel.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
  11. Re:Please Label PDF links! by k4_pacific · · Score: 1

    Better yet, maybe someone could make a browser plugin that automatically adds these warnings based on the file extension within the link.

    --
    Unknown host pong.
  12. Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gun by httpamphibio.us · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Adobe isn't updating until 2007, we can probably assume the same for the Macromedia apps. Native Instruments (Reaktor, Absynth, Kontakt) is going to be rolling out products starting at the end of Q2 2006 to Q1 2007. Cycling '74 (Max/MSP, pluggo, Jitter) is estimating "the end of 2006" but they haven't even come close to meeting a deadline in many years, so that'll probably be mid-2007. Steinberg (Cubase) has said they'll update "sometime" in 2006.

    So... exactly who is the market for the new Intel products? The swarms of iPod owners that own Apple products for reasons of fashion more than functionality? It seems like none of the apps that high-end Apple users actually use aren't going to be out for quite some time.

    But they sorta had to release the Intel products so soon, though didn't they? All the hardcore Apple guys I knew said they wouldn't be buying any new stuff until the transition to Intel. Oh well...

    --
    sig.
  13. WWMMHD? by Kelson · · Score: 1

    What Would Macromedia Have Done?

    You really have to wonder whether they would've decided to update their apps sooner. Though given that Intel Macs for developers have been available for at least 6 months, maybe they weren't far enough along on the transition at the time of the merger.

  14. Hmm... by HellYeahAutomaton · · Score: 4, Funny

    So they're covering up their move to Java? :)

  15. Re:Please Label PDF links! by SpyPlane · · Score: 4, Funny

    Did the beginning of the article:

    "According to a pdf on Adobe's website..."

    not give it away? I thought it was quite obvious. But I guess complaining is easier than reading.

    --
    "We need a fourth law of Robotics: Stop Fingering My Wife"
  16. Re:Please Label PDF links! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    SOMEBODY CALL 9-11!

  17. Re:Please Label PDF links! by corbettw · · Score: 1

    It's basic web accessibility: any link that goes to something other than another web page -- an email, a video clip, an archive... or a PDF -- should be labeled or should at least be obvious from the text of the link itself. Remeber, Acrobat Reader takes time to load.

    I don't know about you, but when I look at the status bar to see what the link is (and I've gotten to the point where I rarely click on a link without doing that, just in case), I can usually tell if the file is a PDF. Those are the ones that have '.pdf' at the end of 'em.

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  18. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by cmdrbuzz · · Score: 1
    It seems like none of the apps that high-end Apple users actually use aren't going to be out for quite some time.

    Except the Apple Pro applications (Final Cut, DVD Studio, Motion, Logic, Shake, Soundtrack etc. They are going to be released as Universal in Feb / March

  19. Re:Please Label PDF links! by Kalgash · · Score: 1

    Ummm from the first line of TFS: "According to a pdf on Adobe's website, t..."

  20. Acrobat Reader??? by JulesLt · · Score: 1

    Maybe the editor's a Mac user and forgot about Acrobat? (The one definite benefit of using Safari or other Webkit based browsers - native PDF)>

    --
    'Capitalists of the world, unite! Oh ... you have' (League Against Tedium)
    1. Re:Acrobat Reader??? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Why hasnt someone made something for Windows that can do PDF and that isnt as "heavyweight" as Acrobat is?

    2. Re:Acrobat Reader??? by JulesLt · · Score: 2, Informative

      Quick Google search has found at least two :

      http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php#/
      Reviewed at
      http://www.download.com/Foxit-PDF-Reader/3640-2079 _4-10470005.html?v=1/

      Downside : won't work in a Tab in Firefox. Then again, Acrobat doesn't always like to play properly with Firefox also.

      http://www.lifehacker.com/software//download-of-th e-day-foxit-pdf-reader-109741.php/

      Also :

      http://www.visagesoft.com/products/pdfreader/

      Next step : Doing something like this that is integrated with the browser. It's just a shame that MS would rather produce a new 'standard' than do it with IE.

      See - who said Mac users can't be helpful to PC users sometimes.

      --
      'Capitalists of the world, unite! Oh ... you have' (League Against Tedium)
  21. Not really, no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Photoshop is too high-demand of an application for that to really be an option. Heck, even in the Stevenote Jobs specifically said that Rosetta would run Photoshop "good enough for people like me who only use Photoshop once in awhile, but not good enough for professionals who use it every day".

    1. Re:Not really, no by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      And people who use it professionally will be able to afford the upgrade. I'm sure they will offer upgrade pricing for a crossgrade from the CS2 to CS3.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
  22. Is this really that big of a surprise? by falcon5768 · · Score: 1

    This is the EXACT same bullshit they pulled when OS 9 went to OS X, sept worse, since there really isnt nearly as much to translate between the packages. Honestly it almost seems Adobe does this to screw with Apple, since they know no production houses (Apples bread and butter) will go over to the new systems unless they update these programs and even they it will take a while.

    --

    "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

    1. Re:Is this really that big of a surprise? by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Honestly it almost seems Adobe does this to screw with Apple

      Oh, I don't think they're malicious, just complacent. They're the Microsoft of image editing, and they'll behave as such until and unless there's a major competitor.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    2. Re:Is this really that big of a surprise? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As some have pointed out the main issue with the intel transition for Adobe and Microsoft (and others I would imagine) is that both companies use CodeWarrior which can't produce Universal binaries. So it isn't just a Power/Intel transition, but a CodeWarrior/XCode transition as well. Both companies have huge and complex programs, and it takes time to get it right. Better they take the time to get it right the first time than to risk the ire of their users by producing a hurried and buggy piece of crap that you can't rely on for making a living. Not to mention Apple probably knows this and has planned on it, which is why I think they will be selling PowerPC along side Intel computers until Microsoft and Adobe release their apps as Universal binaries.

  23. For photographers some good viability by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    So... exactly who is the market for the new Intel products? The swarms of iPod owners that own Apple products for reasons of fashion more than functionality? It seems like none of the apps that high-end Apple users actually use aren't going to be out for quite some time.

    You seem to be extrapolating Adobe products as being the only things anyone uses.

    Other people have mentioned the other Pro apps that will be universal in March. But one app that will help a specific group of professional users is Aperture.

    Photographers will be able to mainly use Aperture for simple edits and then use Photoshop more occasionally than they do today, making Photoshops sluggish non-native performance acceptable for light use - especially on the new MacBook Pro. Photographers really demand fast laptops and will start using them without Photoshop if they can do most things they need to do with other apps.

    It's funny, but when you posted "they have shot themselves in the foot" I thought you were talking about Adobe for letting competitors of all shapes and sizes have a year to gain marketshare over Adobe! Photoshop is far from being unthroned but do they really want people to find out they don't need Photoshop as much as they think they do? Or let Bridge fall out of the mindshare of users who use other Universal apps (like iView Media Pro) for a whole year to manage applications instead? Seems like a really bad strategic plan to me. Lightroom is the only app to be released soon as a Universal Binary, but that is still really an Alpha version as it is a LONG way from being a complete applciation.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:For photographers some good viability by jcr · · Score: 1

      'If there were no Apple, it would be necessary for Microsoft to create one.' (apologies to Voltaire)

      Nah.. If there were no Apple, Microsoft would be copying Sun. (shudder)

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  24. Quark wins again... by arachnoprobe · · Score: 1

    I think that is a major error. Due to the late switch from QuarkXPress to Mac OSX, lots of customers migrated to InDesign. They are easily convinced to switch back.

    1. Re:Quark wins again... by Anonymous+Poodle · · Score: 1

      Which explains all the OS9 boxes suddenly up for sale on eBay when Quark for OSX came out . . . .

  25. Which is it, Chizen? by gsfprez · · Score: 1

    Is it "about time" Apple transitioned to Intel... in mid 2005 at WWDC?

    or will 2007 be "about time" when we'll see some Adobe products written to take advantage of the computers YOU SNARKLY demanded from Jobs with your little jab at him at WWDC last year?

    I was ready to understand the difficulty in the undertaking - but you guys were first to Mac OS X, and now, you're going to be stupid late to Intel, despite your grumblings that Apple wasn't there all along... and i was even ready to forget that we saw Wolfram have their shit togther in short order...

    or is this some play to get Mac users to run Codeweaver's stuff to run your stuff - saving you from having to make Mac OS X versions of things? Or some other random conspiracy.

    Don't be snotty AND late... be one or the other.

    --
    guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
  26. Does it actually say 2007 anywhere? by mbessey · · Score: 1

    I scanned through the document, and the only thing they said was the it'll be in the next major release, and that they typically do releases every 18-24 months. So, if CS2 came out in April or May of 2005, the next version could be out anytime between this November and next May.

    Of course, that's only their "typical" release schedule. If there are other factors in play (like, for example, new Pro Macs being released), they might very well do an atypical release schedule for CS3.

  27. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by twofidyKidd · · Score: 1

    I've been considering the upgrade to the new Intel Macs since they were released. I've been paying special attention to the software/hardware issues, particularly for the line you happened to mention (Macromedia/Adobe, Native Instruments, Cubase, Reason, etc.) because, naturally, I'd like to have the Universal Binary versions. At first, I also thought that the release was premature, but I think they may have coincided the release with the tax season, ie. refund time. When my refund comes in, I intend to put it toward a new Mac mostly because it's the only time I'm really going to have that kind of cash (I don't purchase things on credit, especially computers.) It might be pre-mature to buy one, and I've considered this possibility, but it's certainly not a bad time to bring it to market.

    As for reasons, yes, I can admit part of the motivation behind the purchase is "fashion." I want to work in a more "public" space, and I feel that presentation is part of the marketing plan for my intended use, but I also wanted something not Windows, and something that performs very well in the music production/graphic production arena. My past experience with Macs has proven that it does both very well. My point is that the market for these new Macs aren't just the fanboi's (Lawrd knows they'll buy anything Mac puts out.)

    --


    Hades, PoD: Official Advocate
  28. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have an iPod because it's a very good mp3 player for audio books. First Apple product I've bought since the Apple //e, and I didn't buy it because it was fashionable. I'm planning to buy a Mac now because I appreciate the design (technical, not looks) of the iPod and also like what I see in Macs.

    The iPod was the first Apple purchase for a lot of people because it is good, not because it is fashionable. The iPod is also a "gateway product" for many of us. More Apple sales is good for you, too, right? Better than Apple without an iPod line and struggling?

    Yes, I might get a Mac with an Intel chip because I don't have a library of software to consider and expect to use the stuff that comes with it. Don't you benefit from me using an Intel based Mac for my puttering about before you have to depend on it? I might find a few firmware or OS bugs for you. Maybe first time buyers are the ideal people to market the Intel based Macs to, that might be why the iMac is being replaced before the G5.

    Show some respect for iPod owners who are now buying Macs. Maybe we aren't fashion bimbos. Maybe we've even used Apple products longer than you have? Or do you remember "CALL -151", "F666G", and "6 Control-P"? ;)

  29. You forgot InDesign by toby · · Score: 0

    Plus, Apple has a low-end publishing competition: Pages.

    --T

    --
    you had me at #!
    1. Re:You forgot InDesign by fsterman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Plus, Apple has a low-end publishing competition: Pages.
      Which competes with MS Publisher, not InDesign

      --
      Is there anything better than clicking through Microsoft ads on Slashdot?
    2. Re:You forgot InDesign by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      Well, when Final Cut Pro 1.0 came out it was merely looked at as a competitor to Premiere. A at best semi-pro application for video editing if even.

      And before you could say "oops what the fuck" it had mostly taken but all users from media100, later on it started hurting Avid sales and with their HD solutions (and a G5), they actually are taking over the market for solutions wich usually have a pricing with a few digits more than any FCP + HD capture card (Digital Vodoo, Kona, BlackMagic etc.). Also all of a sudden with motion they're hurting AfterEffects sales as well (which is a good thing AE really is getting old, the GUI desperatly needs an overhaul).

      So I could imagine that for now Pages is just another Word with frames on steroids. But then again, you never now what Apples is going to do if Adobe and Quark don't get the thumbs out of their asses with InDesign and QXP, well let the devil take the hindmost then.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
  30. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So... exactly who is the market for the new Intel products? ...It seems like none of the apps that high-end Apple users actually use aren't going to be out for quite some time.

    You mean somebody still believes the hype that Apple users are mostly graphic artists these days? I know a lot of people including a few who are artists that use macs. Most mac users I know, however, are programmers and scientists. Another large number are non-power users who basically use the Web, e-mail, and some word processing. More people I know are concerned about Mathematica or their personal favorite terminal application running nicely than photoshop. I'm sure there are a lot of graphics people who are pissed about the delay, but I doubt they are a significant number to affect the sales results. I've seen this exact same thing happen several times on the Mac platform and developers never learn. A major niche application developer announces they won't be supporting new hardware for a year or more. Two years later they actually get a version out the door and find half their customers have moved on to a more nimble competitor's application and they just aren't all that interested in switching back. Adobe just announced, "hey anyone who can throw together something nice that actually uses all the built in CoreImage technology that already does half what our product does is free to muscle in and steal our customers." Brilliant!

  31. FrameMaker by Feneric · · Score: 1

    This isn't too surprising. Don't forget that they outright dropped FrameMaker for Mac.

    This was after they claimed that the market for it had shrunk. This was after they had released a non OS X native version about a year after the release of OS X. How many Mac users do you think were waiting for the OS X native version to upgrade?

    I think the only chance of us seeing a true OS X version of FrameMaker is if some other company out there comes out with something that's actually competitive with it...

  32. Re:QuadG5 by Macrat · · Score: 1

    Good time to buy a Quad processor PowerMac G5!!!

  33. Quit yer whining! by maggard · · Score: 4, Informative
    1. Apple has ALWAYS made it clear their move to Intel would be in stages.
    2. Apple has ALWAYS said it would be done from their lower-end products to their upper-end.
    3. The iMac is Apple's entry-level product.
    4. Therefore the iMac being iNtelicized first is in line with Apple's announced plans.
    5. With the iMac being Apple's entry-level consumer product it doesn't have a large professional user base.
    6. Therefore professionals, who have large investments in hardware and software, are unlikely to be affected by the Intel transition until it reaches the products they use: The Professional-level Macs like the G5 line.
    7. So Adobe not shipping Universal Binary products for their professional level until the professional grade hardware is ready is surprising to who?
    Seriously, if you're appalled that Adobe et al aren't shipping Universal Binaries right away only means you haven't been paying attention. If you really are a professional photographer or someone who honestly depends on these type products you'd have to have been comatose the past year not to be well aware of all of this.

    Instead what I hear are a buncha wannebe-geeks who went out 'n bought the newest and shiniest and are now whining because they chose to ignore what anyone with half a clue woulda and most likely did tell 'em. You shelled out over a grand for a new product and couldn't be bothered to find out if the software you want to run on it actually would anytime soon.

    Get the hell off /., I'm sure there's some support chat group out there for you on AOL somewhere. Try keyword "12:00-Flasher"

    Frankly I just hope there is someone out there clubbing you monkeys over the head with instructions on how to use a contraceptive.

    --
    I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
    1. Re:Quit yer whining! by Anonymous+Poodle · · Score: 1

      Frankly I just hope there is someone out there clubbing you monkeys over the head with instructions on how to use a contraceptive.

      Now if someone would just go back in time and club their parents . . . . .

    2. Re:Quit yer whining! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the mini would be their entry level product, then the iMac :p

    3. Re:Quit yer whining! by The+Wooden+Badger · · Score: 1

      So where does the eMac fit in?

      --
      Heroscape, it's like legos combined with anachronistic wargames.
  34. Why not? by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    Just what do you think Apple is doing?

    By going Intel they almost guarantee that a lot of their users will feel compelled to upgrade. While in the laptop range the upgrade issue can almost be moot, those with desktops may feel less pressure now but companies may end up forcing the issue on them by not having non-universal editions in the future.

    This change does Apple very well, at the expense of many of their users. Hopefully they will be able garner new users as well. If it were easier to run *nix/Windows I bet the sales would be much higher.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  35. Intel Transition Tougher Than Most May Realize by krisamico · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work on plugins for Adobe's applications occasionally, and let me say that the [apparent] "maybe in 2007" statement from Adobe is not a big surprise to me. The applications in their creative suite and plugin software development kits rely on CodeWarrior, which is [effectively] a dead product. AFAIK, it could never support development of universal binaries, and I would speculate that they have known this for a while.

    Adobe's plugin Software Development Kits (SDKs) are based on C++ object models, which will mean that plugins and their host applications will need to be built with the same tools for everything to work. To move on, I think Adobe is going to have to move all their products and SDKs to XCode (gcc), and though I do not work for Adobe, I would wager that it will be a fairly tough job. IMO, Q2 or Q3 2007 seems a fairly realistic goal.

    The problems the Intel transition will pose for both Adobe and the third-party plugin developers will be daunting. Quark and its associates have similar troubles, but I have personally seen some decent progress on the Quark side, though I think NDA prevents me from saying anything specific. Though I have seen little progress from Adobe as yet, I am confident they will deliver.

    Adobe has a lot of work ahead of them, so I would encourage users of Adobe's creative apps to be patient, and realize how much work Adobe has ahead of them and that it involves more than just moving the applications to Intel. SDKs often offer as many if not more challenges than their host applications. I will part with a criticism: Everybody has known that CodeWarrior is dead for a long time. I think Adobe should have started putting more resources into jumping ship right when the writing went on the wall. Now we are all going to have to wait a while because Adobe was so shiftless about getting off the dead branch.

    1. Re:Intel Transition Tougher Than Most May Realize by WatertonMan · · Score: 1

      Unless I'm mistaken it has nothing to do with a "C++ object model" which obviously would work fine under XCode. Rather it has to do with using the old CFM stuff which was depreciated and dropped quite a long time ago by Apple. XCode won't even build them and they aren't supported with native Intel code. So they need a new plug in model which will require all new plug-ins. A boon, I suppose, for some developers, but definitely a hassle for end users. And probably the greatest weakness and danger for Apple in the Intel transition. But something that's been discussed a lot since the WWDC last year. Of course having built plugins under Metrowerks I say "about time." Yuck...

    2. Re:Intel Transition Tougher Than Most May Realize by krisamico · · Score: 3, Informative

      The above reply seems to confuse the issues of ABI (which is what I was talking about) and code container format (which your reply seemed to be talking about). When C++ is used for loadable code libraries, getting your tools and interfaces set up right is a little more tricky. Changing the capabilities of the SDK without breaking compatibility is even more tricky. Where I was going to go was that with Objective-C, you do not have the same problem, but I didn't even start because Adobe probably can't do that, as they are cross-platform SDKs. :)

      Perhaps you missed the point of why I would criticize Adobe for using CodeWarrior. It has nothing to do with the container format. When Adobe released Creative Suite 2 last year, they moved from CFM to Mach-O, but they were still using the same old tool... CodeWarrrior (a bad tool for creating native Mac OS X apps, IMO). Had they moved back then, we would probably have Intel builds of Creative Suite in short order.

      I am sure there were good reasons for Adobe to have done things this way, but... Now not only will we have to move our plugins to XCode, but we will also have to move them to Intel afterwards, and we can't do diddly until we get their new SDKs. Foo!

  36. Photoshop CS2 is a 32-bit application. by catmistake · · Score: 1

    Photoshop CS2 is a 32-bit application.

    AFAIK, Adobe never got beyond carbonization... (when Photoship 'thinks,' you still see the wristwatch (when launched, for example, you'll see the wristwatch unless you mouse over the photoshop launch window). I suppose a carbonized app is technically a native application on G3, G4, &G5 PowerPC's, but it was supposed to be a temporary solution for developers. We were expecting them to completely re-write their application (like Quark did). But they didn't. Bums.

    I think this could be the opportunity for a Photoshop killer to arise. Photoshop, while I do not deny its power to do whatever I may need to do to an image, is getting long in the tooth. Yes, still a valid contender (obviously), but at this late version, hasn't anyone else noticed that it could use a re-design of its interface (which I think is almost clumsy now)? When I got CS2, the first thing I noticed, and applauded, was a key combo for "Image Size...". I've wanted that since v4!!! WTF took them so long?

    1. Re:Photoshop CS2 is a 32-bit application. by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      CS3 will be 64-bit, at least on Windows. (By next year, most shipping PCs will be running Vista in 64-bit native mode.)

      However, since Apple hasn't announced any real 100% 64-bit OS plans, it's unclear whether the Mac versions will be 64-bit or not.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    2. Re:Photoshop CS2 is a 32-bit application. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keycombo whining? Gimme a BREAK!! WTF takes you so long until you realize you can do a lot more with AppleScript, OS X Keyboard Shortcuts, Quickeys v3 and Automator and maybe by getting yourself a REAL keyboard with 30 Function Keys that you can use? Tsk.

    3. Re:Photoshop CS2 is a 32-bit application. by catmistake · · Score: 1

      whatever, troll. Point is, Adobe is lazy, Photoshop needs an interface redesign. its... what now?... 20 years old? And (Acrobat needs to be be cocoa.)

  37. Question by sharpestmarble · · Score: 0

    > 2. Apple has ALWAYS said it would be done from their lower-end products to their upper-end.

    Where was this?

    Don't mod this post, mod its child informative.

    --
    AC's modded -6. I don't see you, I don't mod you, anything you say is lost. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
  38. Re:Please Label PDF links! by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Or just hover over the link with your mouse and see the URL in your status bar. You DID learn from the pre [domain] label days not to click on goatse links, didn't you?

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
  39. Crossover Office? by Digital+Pizza · · Score: 1
    It may not be the ideal solution, but this would be a great opportunity for Codeweavers to make a bundle selling a port of Crossover Office to OS X/Intel. You could then run the Windows version of Photoshop at full speed.

    Does Adobe allow you to migrate your Photoshop license from Windows to Mac?

    --
    We apologize for the inconvenience.
    1. Re:Crossover Office? by bursch-X · · Score: 1

      That's no solution. I don't know how far the colour correction system could even hook into Apples ColorSync etc. So you'd be editing images with the colours completely off. Also, there is a reason people use Photoshop on a Mac and not on Windows.

      I'd rather wait for a new version than using a windows-ish version of Photoshop. The GUIs too fucked up for me to even consider bothering with it.

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
  40. score one for MacGIMP by ubiquitin · · Score: 1

    I've used test builds of MacGIMP working on MacOSX for Intel. Works perfectly. If there was ever a time to eat Adobe's lunch with an open source alternative, this is it.

    --
    http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
    1. Re:score one for MacGIMP by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure Gimp.app is now a universal binary, and has been so for a while - it's packaged as a self-contained .app which you can drag straight into your Applications folder.

      Oh, and it's completely free. No dubious paid downloads costing $29.95 or anything.

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    2. Re:score one for MacGIMP by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Show me a GIMP plugin that can convert your output into something that will look the same on as it does on screen and you might see graphic artists (the kind who do things like catalogs, advertisments and so on and who are one of the big customer groups for Photoshop) switch.

    3. Re:score one for MacGIMP by bursch-X · · Score: 2, Informative

      Fuck X11 on OS X, it just doesn't cut it. I can't even input Japanese. So much for using the GIMP for anything here (I happen to live in Tokyo).

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    4. Re:score one for MacGIMP by WWWWolf · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, GIMP on Linux takes mysterious character sets just fine with a little bit of trouble. I type "setxkbmap fi" and bang, töttöröörää. I type "setxkbmap ru" and bang, , ! (though Slashdot will undoubtedly purge the non-latin1 characters =) All GTK+2.x apps have really nice input system chooser - just right click any text field, select "Input methods".

      I haven't used Gimp.app that much, but I guess your problem lies in the fact that either X11.app in general or GIMP may or may not honor the overall OSX input mode. I'm not sure how to resolve this problem, but I wager it involves quite a lot of setxkbmap or something =)

    5. Re:score one for MacGIMP by bursch-X · · Score: 2, Informative

      Japanese has admittedly THE most complex writing system in the world. It makes use of TWO syllable "alphabets", Hiragana and Katakana (if you can call them "alphabets" at all) and at least 1945 officiall Kanji (characters from the Chinese writing system, but partly simplified) plus some more in daily use. A good font comes with about 10000 characters plus it also throws arabic numbers and the latin alphabet into the mix.

      Now there is no way to input that using just a keyboard layout, so it is not a matter of switching keyboard layouts for Japanese. You need a thing called input method. Which takes either your romanized input and transforms it into hiragana which you then can further transform into Kanji ("on demand" by hitting space), or some professional writers type directly in hiragana (but you still need to transform some of the syllables into kanji). In the OSS world there are two input methods widely used one is kanna and the other is wnn if I recall properly.

      Now OS X has its own input method for Japanese (kotoeri) which works fine and does the job favourably, the trouble is X11 does know nothing of kotoeris existence, so if you want to input japanese in X11 in OS X you'll have to install kanna or wnn (in X11, OS X again will not know of kanna or wnn at all either) and the problem is that this is a somewhat esoteric affair, and you definitely don't even want to try to get it running. Even under Linux where you don't have to deal with two layers like in OS X (Cocoa/Aqua and X11) it is a pain and you rather just use a distribution that comes with kanna or wnn preinstalled. To make a long story even longer...

      On OS X just don't try to use Japanese in X11 it's not worth the hassle. Also partly because usually OS X is through and through Unicode whereas AFAIK X11 is not (don't stone me if I'm wrong), that's yet another thing you'd have to consider when trying to use Japanese in X11 apps that weren't written to handle it. In OS X Cocoa apps it's no problem. Regardless of the application natural language, Cocoa apps always can deal with Unicode so you don't have to worry whether your app is able to deal with Japanese or not, it will be able to handle Japanese. Always.

      Bottom line for me is: before I have to fuck around doing "the geeky thing" in X11 I'd rather wait for Photoshop or get a Cocoa app instead or anything that'll do the job, because if I wanted to geek around instead of getting some work done on my computer I wouldn't have gotten a Mac, I would've started with Linux to begin with ;-)

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    6. Re:score one for MacGIMP by Yosho · · Score: 1

      A minor note: you can't, in fact, call the kana sets "alphabets", as they are not based on the alpha / beta / etc. characters. They are typically referred to as syllabaries.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
  41. Not just Premiere by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 5, Interesting
    You mean when Adobe killed it and most of the users migrated to Final Cut Pro, making Apple a lot of money?

    That's not quite what happened...

    Premiere was not discontinued for Mac until well after Final Cut's launch. Apple basically stole the entire market from them. When sales fell through the floor, Adobe discontinued the Mac version of Premiere, and also announced that basically all of their software should be run on PCs for best results, a historical first. This was essentially the beginnings of the major Apple/Adobe rivalry. (They were really pissed about iPhoto as well.)

    It doesn't get mentioned a lot around here, but Premiere was hardly the only Apple casualty in that space; they have virtually eaten the nonlinear editing space in a very short span of time. Remember Avid? They are still around but not nearly the force they once were, a name pretty much synonymous with high end / cinema nonlinear editing. Media 100 also. Final Cut is a juggernaut, a totally killer app. And Apple has Final Cut Express to compete with as well. And then they picked up Shake and RAYZ and a few others to eat a piece of what SGI used to totally dominate.

    The really funny part is, Final Cut started its life (as I know the story) at Adobe, as a radical new verison of Premiere after v4. Premiere 4 was super popular, but people who know it and used it will all tell you that v5 sucked big time. The reason for this is, the Premiere team had this great new interface but Adobe didn't want to deviate so radically from the old Premiere look and feel. In frustration a large number of them quit and went over to Macromedia, who started developing their own editing app called Final Cut. It evolved for a bit there, but Macromedia got cold feet and had a sort of had a truce with Adobe at the time, so they sold the unreleased codebase... to Apple.

    (This is hearsay I received from a high mucketymuck at Adobe who was bombed on Bailey's at the time, so take as you will.)

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    1. Re:Not just Premiere by jcr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Your account gybes quite well with what I heard at Apple. Of course, the developers in question weren't able to take any of their code from Adobe to Macromedia, but the money spent on a development project really ends up in the brains of the developers, not in the source code.

      One thing to fill in: Apple got into the video-editing business because Avid was actively leaning on customers to abandon the Mac. I do recall a story of one customer asking an Avid rep: "what about Mac compatibility?", and being told "Nobody has to be Mac compatible anymore" with a smirk. The customer told the Avid guy: "YOU have to be compatible with your installed base, asshole!"

      Before I got to Apple, I really had no idea how much Avid had alienated their customers. It'll be a business-school case study someday. ;-)

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    2. Re:Not just Premiere by WatertonMan · · Score: 1

      Before I got to Apple, I really had no idea how much Avid had alienated their customers. It'll be a business-school case study someday. ;-)

      I think Quark made it there as the case study first...

    3. Re:Not just Premiere by jcr · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but they're certainly making amends.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    4. Re:Not just Premiere by ktappe · · Score: 1
      Perhaps, but they're certainly making amends.
      They are? Where? When? I work in the publishing industry and I can report that the general push to abandon Quark for InDesign is alive and well. What olive branch has Quark made lately? A beta release of Q7 doesn't count, for it doesn't fix any of the issues with Q6.5. Quark hasn't patched Q6.5 in a year, it's still horrifically overpriced for what you receive, they still charge 6-figures for their publishing system (QPS) even if all you want is versioning, Q6.5 still corrupts preferences at the drop of a hat (at least under OS X), it still has a huge AppleScript bug that is a major impediment to automating printing under Tiger...the list goes on.

      -Kurt

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    5. Re:Not just Premiere by jcsehak · · Score: 2, Funny

      who was bombed on Bailey's at the time

      you can do that?

      --

      c-hack.com |
    6. Re:Not just Premiere by vilms · · Score: 0

      Well, they've certainly become more attuned to the customer as being -perhaps- somehow important to their business. They're supposed to be listening these days. But it's come rather too late to make a difference in the UK, I fear.
      We've moved all our desktops to InDesign and just about every other UK consumer magazine publisher that isn't locked into QPS is making the same move. A few thousand desktops may not mean a great deal in terms of lost licence cash to Quark Inc, but when you think about how many freelancers and related small businesses will make the change, it becomes more significant.

      Just one more note, as this is getting way off-topic: I attended plenty of meetings where the IT directors of UK publishers sat with Quark's European reps, trying to coax ANY information from them regarding compatibility with OS X as well as inviting Quark to present their support plans for the new OS. In each meeting, we met with virtual silence until the last one where they told us to "upgrade to Quark 5 now -and use Classic- and we'll sort you out a proper OS X version later". In the intervening two years, we'd got plenty of information about suggested features x, y and z -but nothing about what we wanted to know. They blew it.

      I honestly believe they could have delivered a carbonised version of Quark v4 and Adobe InDesign wouldn't have had a chance.

  42. When 2007 Rolls Around... by alphasubzero949 · · Score: 1

    Steve will ask paraphrasing Chizen's words (WWDC 2005)

    The only question I have for you Bruce is what took you so long?

  43. I wonder how companies make these funny decisions by dtfinch · · Score: 1

    If they rebuild it, people will repurchase it.

  44. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by smash · · Score: 1
    So... exactly who is the market for the new Intel products? The swarms of iPod owners that own Apple products for reasons of fashion more than functionality? It seems like none of the apps that high-end Apple users actually use aren't going to be out for quite some time.

    Well, i'm buying one for one.

    Why?

    Because it's a computer i can use at home for "home use" type stuff without worrying about dealing with the shit you have to deal with running windows.

    Plus, it's just plain nice to sit on a desk by itself - has everything I want in a single monitor-sized box...

    Also, it has a complete development environment, I like the fact that it's objective C based, and *this is the big one* ... the intel switch will make porting games trivial compared to the work involved porting from Intel to PPC...

    Also, it will make apple's life in deploying higher-speed chipsets (as intel develop them) a walk in the park...

    I'm seriously expecting the Mac games market to really ramp up in the next couple of years.

    If it doesn't, no big deal, i'm switching anyway... but I really reckon a lot of the bigger barriers have been lifted...

    smash.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  45. time for the siren by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 1
    A friend of a friend of my cousin's coworker's brother said Steve plans to release a Mac in 2009 that will never become obsolete.

    Excellent. I just read that someone's brother's coworker's cousin's friend of a friend of an Anonymous Coward posting on Slashdot has *** CONFIRMED *** this new Mac. I'm phoning Drudge.

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
  46. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by John+Nowak · · Score: 1

    Crap. Max is being talked about in the same breath as Reaktor and Kontakt and Macromedia. I need to switch to something more advanced. This is embarrassing.

  47. Adobe was slow for Phoroshop 7. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    Adobe is relatively cold to the Mac Community for some reason or an other. They seem much more willing to bend over for Microsoft then for Apple. Photoshop 7 was released after about a year or so after OS X 10.1. While the company it self supports Apple mac, I think many of the developers were Windows Programmers who were pushed to to the Mac Unit and are not happy about it, so they really drag their feet to get development done, for OS X.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Adobe was slow for Phoroshop 7. by argent · · Score: 1

      Adobe is relatively cold to the Mac Community for some reason or an other.

      Oh, to be a fly on the wall where Apple and Adobe went at it over Yellow Box and Display Postscript. I bet there were harsh words on both sides.

  48. No sympathy for early adopters who complain by stretta · · Score: 1
    Mature, complicated applications like Adobe's require mature, complicated development cycles. Beta testing alone takes months, and it can be difficult to predict how long it will take. The development cycle for these applications realistically consumes two years.

    Let's pretend Adobe dropped everything to focus on a transition to Universal binaries right after WWDC last year. Realistically, it would be another 12-18 months from now before a release is ready. This would coincide with when Jobs told developers professional Macs would ship.

    But that isn't how it happens. Developers will continue with the development cycle they have committed to, and tackle the next challenge in the next development cycle. Development on this scale is like steering an oil tanker. The fact that they're saying 2007 at all is a miracle.

    iMacs and laptops are not Adobe's core professional market. Professionals who rely on Adobe's products will continue to do what they have always done, use what works reliably and upgrade when it makes sense to do so. In other words, have some patience until the tools you rely on are ready, then upgrade your hardware.

  49. the great "Rosetta sucks" lie by SuperBanana · · Score: 1
    Using it with Rosetta may be "passable"...it's just not going to cut it in the long run.

    Ah, Steve said it's true, it must be so.

    Except...it's not true. Rosetta on a dual-core iMac G5 runs core "pro" apps just fine, and as fast as a dual-core G5 2ghz. Oops:

    "The big question at this point is how well third-party applications will run on the new machines, particularly pro-level applications. I had a chance to spend some time on one of the new 2.0 GHz versions of the Intel-based iMac in Apple's booth on the show floor this morning. While it was far from fully loaded with third-party software, it did have Adobe Photoshop CS2 running on it. Several quick tests showed that the software, running in emulation via Apple's Rosetta technology, performed adequately in processor-intensive tasks. For example, resizing a 4,000 x 4,000-pixel image to 16,000 x 16,000 took fewer than 10 seconds to complete, and resizing back down to 4,000 x 4,000 took fewer than five seconds. Various filters performed pretty much the way they perform on dual G5 CPUs. On a 4,000 x 4,000 image, Filter Gallery filters operated without any lag, as did various blur and render filters (Lighting Effects , Fibers and the like). We will, of course, perform much more extensive tests when we have the new hardware in our own hands. But the limited Photoshop tests showed that, at least for 2D graphics, the Intel-based iMacs seem to be a match for pro-level PowerPC hardware, even when the test software is running in emulation mode."

  50. No sympathy for Adobe. by argent · · Score: 1

    Let's pretend Adobe dropped everything to focus on a transition to Universal binaries right after WWDC last year.

    Let's pretend that somewhere in Adobe's management structure there exists a decision maker who is capable of rational thought. Even without the Intel switch, Codewarrior has been a lame duck since 1997. That's when Apple first tried to switch to the NeXT codebase and relegate the classic Mac OS API to "Blue Box". Carbon was explicitly a transition API, at first, and Adobe seems to have decided that Apple's subsequent use of Carbon internally meant that Codewarrior was safe. Carbon no longer means OS 9, and Carbon support shouldn't be assumed to mean support for an OS 9 compatible execution environment... whether that's via Classic or just via a compatible binary format. And that's the only reason for sticking with Codewarrior.

    Adobe should have had a Project Builder transition strategy underway for at least 5 years now.

  51. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Logic is universal now.

  52. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the intel switch will make porting games trivial compared to the work involved porting from Intel to PPC

    Bull. Shit.

    The vast majority of work in porting any app, game or not, comes from having to use different system APIs to get the same things done. Yeah, some games have a little hand-optimized assembly, but I still contend that's a much smaller piece of the job than moving from the Windows Way to the Mac Way. Anything written in C or a higher level language will require zero porting related to CPU architecture as long as you handled your endianness in a transparent manner from the start.

  53. Re:Please Label PDF links! by dave1g · · Score: 1

    THANKS

  54. Hilarious. by David+Rolfe · · Score: 1

    Nah.. If there were no Apple, Microsoft would be copying Sun. (shudder)

    Hilarious! :-D

    (But if Microsoft was copying CDE, Windows would still end up looking like OS X...)

    --
    Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
  55. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I ordered mine for the OS and the graphics card. I'm a video game developer. It's a good setup.

  56. Re:Shot themselves in the foot & jumped the gu by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 1

    Oh, wee. Apple's own apps are supported. Well, that's 50% of the "high end" software manufacturers that support the Mac.

    --
    I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
  57. Not an endorsement, just a workaround... by argent · · Score: 1

    On Windows and X11 I typically keep a notepad window open, and use it for all non-english text-entry. The fact that you don't need to do this with Cocoa and many Carbon apps (Carbon apps, particularly the ones based on ports from UNIX or Windows, don't always seem to hook in to OS X as well as Cocoa) is great.

    But...

    You should be able to copy and paste from TextEdit into the GIMP no matter what the character set. This isn't a real solution, but it's a workaround that should be acceptable for an application where text input is (or should be) a relatively rare operation.

  58. Old Old News ... We Knew This Right After WWDC by gig · · Score: 1

    At WWDC 2005 (June 2005) both Adobe and Microsoft pledged support for the new Intel-based Macs. However, in the discussions that followed the initial announcment, both companies warned users not to look for native apps from them until 2007. This is because both Adobe and Microsoft use CodeWarrior, and CodeWarrior cannot compile Mac OS X for Intel apps.

    If you remember the initial Mac-Intel announcement, Steve Jobs pointed out that if developers are using Xcode (Apple development tools) then all they will have to do to make Intel apps is upgrade to v2.1.0 of Xcode and check "Intel" in addition to "PowerPC" before they compile their app. However, if a developer is using CodeWarrior (the "other" Mac development environment) then they first have to move their whole app to Xcode, and then when that is finished they can check "Intel". It is a much longer process.

    If you have a v2.0.0 PowerPC app from a vendor that uses Xcode, then it may be a very simple matter for them to ship a v2.0.1 with Intel support. It may be easy to make a patch that just places the additional executable file in the application's bundle. However, if you have a v2.0.0 PowerPC app from a vendor that uses CodeWarrior, you are going to have to wait for v3.0.0 and that is all there is to it. They are not going to move their v2.0.0 codebase into Xcode and ship v2 again just to please a handful of Mac OS X Intel users who want native software NOW instead of a year from now. For CodeWarrior-based developers Intel support is major-version work.