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Greek, U.S. Officials Tapped For Years
Bruce Schneier posts on a story being reported in the Seattle Intelligencer. Greek and U.S. officials in Greece apparently had their phones tapped for over a year before the 2004 Olympics. From the article: "It was not known who was responsible for the taps, which numbered about 100 and included Greek Prime Minister Costas Caramanlis and his wife, and the ministers of foreign affairs, defense, public order and justice. Most of Greece's top military and police officers were also targeted, as were foreign ministry officials and a U.S. embassy number. Also tapped were some journalists and human rights activists." Schneier gives a bit of technical background on how the tapping was accomplished.
does this surprise anyone? it's the admissability in court that's really the big deal, as well as being able to point to the use of it in ongoing investigations between agencies and oversight.
Did anybody else think that the article was
"Geek U.S. Officials Tapped For Years"?
I dunno...maybe that's just because I was on \. I was thinking that.
-TLAY
I sincerely doubt they were looking for "evidence" for a trial...I also doubt that it was either Greece or the US that did this. The conference calls were probably setup from the provider (Vodaphone's) side, not actually installed on the phone itself.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Too bad they didn't have Symantec Genesis yet.
Stop! Dremel time!
Or, are their specific areas of the phone ROM designed for including new and inovative istructions as our fearless leaders (or paying advertisers) require?
- Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
>
>That was clever. How did they get access to the phones to flash the programming? Phones worked fine otherwise. Makes me think someone had access to them at the factory. How else would they be able to get the source. Or would they need it?
One of three ways:
1) A backdoor in phones for snooping; either placed there by design/regulation in concert with the manufacturer, or slipped in by means of some clever hackery. Read "Reflections on Trusting Trust" for just how clever said hackery could be.
2) By means of the normal process whereby automated firmware updates can be delivered to phones. Same sort of way a Tivo or satellite/cable decoder can be "updated" remotely. Except that the "update" only went to the "right" phones. Sort of a variant on #1.
3) Or the old-fashioned way: the same way a virus/worm author gets access to flash your BIOS, or overwrite the material on a hard drive. Sent 'em some HTML that exploited a flaw when rendered. Sent 'em a .JPG with corrupt headers.
A mobile phone is a computer with a writable storage device on it. Computers run code. Computers do what they're designed to do, unless the code they run contains flaws - in which case they do what they're told to do, which may not be what the designer intended, but it's precisely what the cracker intends.
No need to get all so "conspiracy FUD" about the phone companies loading code onto your phone. From the first article it says that "spyware" was loaded onto the central Vodafone server. Which is obviously the best place to attack the system. That way you can use the entire network as your spy infrastructure.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
a phone conversation encryptor?
:D
Actually the idea is as old as the MAD magazine, but with today's technology it could be implemented using public keys and a tiny modem in the headset.
voice -> data -> public-key encrypted data -> voice.
Ta-da!
They didn't have access to the phones. They just altered the programming in the phone exchange.
From the article:
Roussopoulos said the surveillance was carried out through spy software installed in the central system of Vodafone, the mobile telephony provider that served the targets.
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
This sounds like an organized crime activity to me. Lots of cash flowing around and knowing people's secrets could be just what somebody needed to get a fat contract where they could skim millions. Follow the money and you'll probably find who did this, even if you cant prove it.
I wouldn't be surpriesd if organized crime here in the US hadn't figured out a way to tap into people's phone calls. The telepone companies don't seem to care who listens to our phone calls anymore.
It's time for end to end encryption of all communications. We should get an SSL session from one handset to the other.
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
"Hello, Vodaphone Greece. Yeah, I've got a complaint about my service. I think someone's tapping my phone. How can I tell? Every time I talk to my wife I hear heavy breathing that isn't hers, if you know what I mean..."
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
They didn't have to.
They (whoever "they" is) did it all from the telephone company switch.
This is exactly the same mechanism that is used for "proper" (IE: court ordered, law enforcement initiated) taps.
A command is issued in the switch that makes any future calls to or from the "target" phone part of a conference. The 3rd party in the conference would normally be a one-way audio device, that is connected to the police recording equipment.
In this case, it appears that the monitoring party was another cell phone (a pre-paid one, hard to track down who it belongs to).
The "hack" in this case, is really just an un-authorized use of an existing function in the telephone switching platform. It only takes a couple of commands, from a login with appropriate permissions, to do this.
All that stuff in the movies "..what was that, did you hear a click?" is bogus. I've been involved in a lot of testing of these and you can't tell that there's anything out of the ordinary going on.
---
"I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
I'm currently in Greece right now. What they officialy announced was that malicious code triggered a feature of the Ericsson systems Vodafone is using that "duplexes" phone calls. This feature is disabled in Greece by default (or should be anyway) because it is illegal. What is being heavily debated over right now is this: Once Vodafone's administrators found out about the malicious code and the whole illegal setup, they immediantly shut it down, hindering the task of finding the location of the 14 numbers almost impossible. So the question is, if you where in the Vodafone administrator's shoes, would you immediantly shutdown the obviously illegal code, or inform the police before taking action about it?
"Omykod, neighbor, I just discovered a webcame in MY shower, too! Chekkidout!"
"Wow dude, someone put that same keylogger on my laptop, too! Here it is, right in the process list on my Windows Task Manager!"
"Greek Allies: Thank you for sharing your concerns that we were behind the recent suspicious rerouting of cell phone calls made by your top government officials. As you can see from the attached mobile phone company records, our embassy has been a victim of this heinous eavesdropping as well. We look forward to working with you to find the Real Perpetrators. Sincerely, CIA Field Chief -REDACTED-"
I mean... c'mon. Everyone knows that at least one third party was already listening in on those conversations anyways. What's the surprise that someone else figured out a cheaper way to do it? That's just good geeks at work trying to impress the bean counters over at the GAO.
Note to self: two tinfoil hat posts in one sitting... I need to cut back on the Mt. Dews after lunchtime
-- Stu
/. ID under 2,000. I feel old now.
These games are played all the time by foreign intelligence services. The most important question here is, if this was not a Greek agency that was behind the wiretapping, why didn't Greek counterintelligence know about this for so long?
Some more interesting details:
t ics_371_03/02/2006_172382
1) The software used was developed by Vodafone's major supplier,
Ericsson. It was installed although Vodafone does not own any licenses
to use it.
http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_poli
2) Vodafone was notified by a Reseller, Q-Telecoms, about delays in
text message delivery, after which they undertook an ad-hoc analysis.
They found the software, supposedly a remotely activated Trojan (how
the hell could a Trojan get onto an SMS gateway?), by sheer luck, and
then disconnected the computer from the network.
3) The day after (2) the local security manager was discovered dead.
"Suicide", don't you know.
4) Ta Nea (http://digital.tanea.gr/) are claiming it was the CIA,
since the remote proxy used for collecting data appeared to lie in the
vicinity of the American and / or British embassies. How amateurish is
that? Their motive was "Anti-Terrorism" before, during and evidently
also after the 2004 Olympics, which is no doubt why the list of
mobiles being tracked also included those of some prominent, and very
very active (if you follow the news about bombs and firebombs at Greek
banks and ministries, you'll know what I mean) anarchists (not
commies, much more left wing than those boy-scouts).
So long,
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security - Ben Franklin
I'd guess that they probably got access at some stage during shipping, not at the factory, and swapped outbound phones with ones modded in at their leisure.
;) It was a hollow cavity resonator - it had a large open space in the center with a simple wire in it. The vibration changed the capacitance between the diaphragm and the post plate, but there was no power source. It was not a bug on its own, but when the Soviets would broadcast a strong radio signal, an induced current would induce currents and stimulate a return broadcast at varying frequencies using the wire as an antenna, with frequency determined by the distance between the diaphragm and the post plate (which was determined by the sound impacting the diaphragm). I.e., a simple arrangement of metal became an FM transmitter when you broadcast radio waves at it.
Never underestimate the power of even a simple device to spy. My favorite spy tool of all time was a plaque given to the US Embassy at Moscow by the Soviets in 1946. The US inspected it and determined that there was absolutely no way it could be bugged. It was
Son, a woman is a lot like a refrigerator. They're six feet tall, 300 pounds... they make ice... umm...
That's to protect the targets from being further owned and in hopes of getting the black hats to attempt a fix (Fuck the teanagers; Is there time?).
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Spoken like a true ignoramus. By your logic then, the government should be able to bug, film, and record everything we do anywhere since, "Hey, you shouldn't be doing anything wrong in the frist place" (mispelling intended). You should have paid attention in history class during the Nixon lessons. Then, maybe you'd understand the danger of giving our government this kind of unchecked power. It's also a violation of the fundamental rights we all have as citizens, you know that whole stupid "unreasonable search and seizure" thing? If you're American too, I pray for our country's sake that your post was intended to be satirical. If it was satire, great job impersonating a moron!
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
First, define "wrong". Next, imagine the evesdroppers are puritanical retentive maniacs who define "wrong" as "anything enjoyable", or "anything that does not contribut to business profits". Say a friend rings you up and asks to borrow a CD. Is it ok then for the RIAA swat team to converge on your location and take you away?
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I think you meant to send that here ... otherwise its just trolling.
I always liked this story about the xerox machine in the Russian embassy doing more than just copying documents.
The collection of Ericsson cell phone switches that I am currently sitting beside (4 of them) have a lot of features available in them, that my employer hasn't bought, and are not enabled. All it'll take to enable those features is a call to Ericsson with a purchase order.
My wild-assed speculation is that this "hack" was done by an employee, or former employee) who was probably recieving more than one income..
---
"I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
It's interesting in many ways :
- it confirms what was previously just expected/suspected.
- The way in which it was done ( by installing software on the carrier's cell network that 'conferenced in prepaid phones' ) is definitely interesting.
- It was discovered.
Oh, and I've not read this anywhere else, but there's a post here which gives a few other details, including the mysterious "suicide" of one of the local security officials... not that I can tell you that it's anything real other than some radom dude posted something here, but still, that's interesting too, especially if true.
Anyway, I find it much more interesting than another RIM article or another CSS&HTML book review.
Sure, the US does a lot of wiretapping, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was the US. But is it too quick to blame America for this incident?
As someone who has worked for the US government overseas before and studied a the subject of intelligence and international relations before, I can imagine a lot of others would love to (and probably have done) the same thing.
There's the old standbys - Russian intelligence, the Chinese, the Israelis, the British, and others. Of these, I'd say all are reasonably suspect with the possible exception of Israel (I know nothing about Israeli-Greek relations, please enlighten me if you know more on the subject).
There are regional powers that likely have the interest and capabilities to do so as well (Turkey, Cyprus, Albania perhaps).
Don't get me wrong - there's a fairly high probability the US had some hand in this and, like I said earlier, I wouldn't be shocked if the US was behind it. But I'd avoid jumping on that bandwagon too quickly without more information. There are a lot of other intelligence services out there, and they're very active in pursuing information.
I am going to tell a little story.
Once upon a time, there was a dike. It was just a simple dike, nothing special. The dike was built, as dikes are, to stop water from flowing all over. One day though, someone decided to break a little bit of the dike. Nothing too drastic. Just a little water flowing out. What's the harm, y'know? In fact, it's helpful to the people nearby, since they get some free water! Thus, the whole wasn't fixed. But this little hole soon started to get larger. Alright...well the people are getting more free water now! But this hole kept on getting larger. Eventually, the hole was so large that the dike was of no use anymore. All the people who were getting free water could now be found under that water.
Now, to come back to the topic at hand: What happens when the government finds out that it is "okay" to eavesdrop on its own citizens? That the people don't care one bit about the whole thing. The government starts to do it more often. Eventually, it is too large to stop. I could very well bring up the Nazis, but I'd prefer to not violate Godwin's law.
Stories such as these raise awareness to the fact. I remember reading a comment earlier today about how the RIAA was purposely initiating frivolous lawsuits (Such as suing the person who never used a computer.) simply to remind people that they are still actively hunting those 'evil pirates.' The more people are aware, the more they participate. For example, in the late-1700s and early-1800s, the literacy rate throughout Europe started to rise. At the same time, the level of participation within politics also rose. One of the primary causes of the French Revolution (and the Terror that followed) was the use of newspapers to raise awareness amongst the populace.
Nowadays, awareness is the first step toward action.
Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
The fact that people were tapped is not what makes the story interesting; if you actually RTFA'd you would know that there was malicious code in the mobile phones that "conference called" calls to other numbers where they were then recorded.
That setup used rather primitive (by today's standards) technology, a modified movie camera that recorded the doc images on film -- putting the Xerox tech who swapped the film out at some risk, I imagine.
Consider that today's copiers (and printers) are all digital and that it would be pretty trivial to have them store copies to flash memory for easy retrieval, either by a tech "running diagnostics" or over the wire or even wireless. (Heck, many copiers already have the built-in smarts to disallow copying/printing of currency, what's a little more firmware hidden away in there?)
Now, for the truly paranoid, consider how much of that stuff is made in China these days.
-- Alastair
Come on. You know it was just the Olympic Committee making sure no one violated their trademark on the term "Olympics". Because you know they have to protect the term "Olympics" so that know one else can make money off the word "Olympics". If these officials where caught using the term Olympics they could be in big trouble with the Olympic Committee. Hold on, someone's knocking on my door.....
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
I found it pretty cool. Malicious code at the phone company's central office used to serupticiously record the conversations of top government officials and foreign diplomats? Way cool from a technical/geek standpoint.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
you don't deserve any of the freedoms that our constitution grants us. plain and simple.
Something doesn't have to be wrong, for the need for secrecy to exist.
:P
Suppose someone has an embarassing (though legal) secret? The person listening could easily blackmail the individual. Or worse yet, what if it's a business conversation, and someone listening could easily profit? You don't think the US listens to other countries business communications, and passes the info to US corporations? Or other countries would spy on the US? Interesting...
I'm convinced you're either a troll, or just incredibly stupid. Since your an American, both could be true. Considering you're a soldier, you shouldn't be metaphorically wiping your ass with the constitution.
Wiretaps!
"Stop poking me. Stop poking me. Stop poking me. Seriously, stop poking me."
It's not like the Executive Branch has just asserted its right to basically do what it pleases in the name of fighting terrorism, is it?
I understand your list of usual suspects, but something on the level of what's described doesn't sound like the Russians. Why would they do it? (And to the same objection about the States -- they've already proven their willingness and ability...)
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
That is... really ingenious.
Sorta reminds me of the 'sniffing' devices they hung from spy planes in Vietnam, that were supposed to detect traces of ammonia that would eminate from bomb-making facilities. They ended up bombing a lot of empty forest, with buckets of piss adorning the branches...
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
You're right, it was likely a foreign intelligence service. Greece's main geopolitical rival is Turkey, I would suspect it was people working for the Turkish intelligence services.
I sure hope not, the last thing we need more sabre rattling in the Balkans.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
There was 1 phone in the US embassy bugged too. 1? Why only 1? Why only the USA Embassy?
I reckon that's either to test it, or so it could be denied later ('well we were bugged too').
If it was Israel, China etc, I bet they'd bug all the western embassies - it would just be an extra line in a configuration file.
Plus I know a few Ericsson switch engineers and they are all US or UK contract staff which rules out China or Russia to me (but maybe that has changed, maybe Ericsson use Russian staff now?) and Turkey Cyprus or Albania, forget it! Where would they get switch engineers from?
I hate to jump to conclusions too, but it looks highly likely, especially given the domestic spying without warrant in the USA, and the UN Kofi Annan spying incident, and the claimed kidnapping of Greek citizens by US & UK agencies.
It depends which single phone line was bugged in the US embassy. If it was the mailroom, that's one thing. If it's the ambassador, deputy chief of mission, or - perhaps - a phone to even the operator it's interesting.
/.
A lot of "walk-ins" occur at embassies by people wanting to give information. Tapping the operator's phone and monitoring who calls would certainly be of use to counter-intelligence investigations.
Also, would only contract staff be able to work on those switches? Could anyone else have done it?
Like I said - the CIA's definitely high on the suspect list. I agree entirely. But it just seems a bit premature to jump to that conclusion.
In any case, it looks like I said something that could possibly be construed as not Anti-American, and was thus modded down. Such is
> Oh, and I've not read this anywhere else, but there's a post here
> which gives a few other details, including the mysterious
> "suicide" of one of the local security officials... not that I can
> tell you that it's anything real other than some radom dude posted
> something here
The story of the Vodafone employee who was found dead two days after the discovery of the "spyware" has been in the TV news here (in Greece) and in some online news reports too. There was a "thorough investigation" by a high ranking state attorney, after which it was declared suicide. Vodafone denies any connection of this death to the phone tapping.
The AC makes a great point about complacency and how power grabs are sold to the public. Apparently his or her use of sarcasm was the sole reason for being modded down, in which case the "punishment" does not fit the "crime".
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Yes, the suicide hapend in 8 March 2005. But the officials deny any correlation with the tapping events. http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text?c=112&id=948 56912> (in Greek)
Here is a diary of the whole story:
spring-summer-winter of 2004taps were working. That summer was when the Greek Olympic Games took place.
7 March 2005: Taps discovered and were immediately deleted as command by mother Vodafone, England .one day after the taps were found by Vodafone, and 1 day before reported to government officials.
9 March 2005: The technician who worked in the company from 1995 and had specialty in mobile systems security.
10 March 2005: The taps were reported to Greek PM.
11 March 2005: The taps were reported the government and judicial officials.
3 January 2006 The whole story goes public.
reposting due to bad format...
------
Yes, the suicide hapend in 8 March 2005. But the officials deny any correlation with the tapping events. http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text?c=112&id=948 56912> (in Greek)
Here is a diary of the whole story:
* orked in the company from 1995 and had specialty in mobile systems security, commits suicide. 10 March 2005: The taps were reported to Greek PM. 11 March 2005: The taps were reported privately to the government and to prosecuteors. 3 January 2006 The whole story goes public. Edit Comment Name sperxios10 [ Log Out ] Subject Commentreposting due to bad format
Yes, the suicide hapend in 8 March 2005. But the officials deny any correlation with the tapping events. http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text?c=112&id=948 56912> (in Greek)
Here is a diary of the whole story:
spring-summer-winter of 2004taps were working. That summer was when the Greek Olympic Games took place.
7 March 2005: Taps were discovered and were immediately deleted as commanded by mother Vodafone, England .
9 March 2005: A technician who worked in the company from 1995 and had specialty in mobile systems security, commits suicide.
10 March 2005: The taps were reported to Greek PM.
11 March 2005: The taps were reported privately to the government and to prosecuteors.
3 January 2006 The whole story goes public. Use the Preview Button! Check those URLs! Post Anonymously Allowed HTML
spring-summer-winter of 2004taps were working. That summer was when the Greek Olympic Games took place.
7 March 2005: Taps were discovered and were immediately deleted as commanded by mother Vodafone, England .
9 March 2005: A technician who worked in the company from 1995 and had specialty in mobile systems security, commits suicide.
10 March 2005: The taps were reported to Greek PM.
11 March 2005: The taps were reported privately to the government and to prosecuteors.
3 January 2006 The whole story goes public.
I once heard a story about someone who claimed that they were being listened to. This person says that he heard an odd "clicking" and other bizzare noises when he was talking on his home land line. When he complained to the phone company, the repairman said his phone was wired really weird. He claimed that it was wired through to the company he used to work for. This was in the mid-nineties. I don't really trust the word of this person, but I would like to know if this has any validity.
Now, thanks to the wonder of Slashdot, I can ask multiple people who may know something about this.
1) Is this story believable?
2) Do you hear "clicks" if your phone line is being tapped?
3) Can any private organization arrange to have another wire leading from another phone?
In Greece? The U.S. government taps you again...
If you think this is news, it'll shudder you to your core to know that...brace yourself...the UN is also completely bugged. Been that way since the start.
A lot of you zombies think it's some good-hearted organization for finding lost puppies, but part of the Iraq-war intel came from there. And it stretches back all the way....I suppose to the Bay of Pigs or so.
It's not new; it's just new to you...part of how the world has always worked. Don't panic.
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
If the people don't care about it, the people don't care about it. You pretty much negate the rest of your argument right there.
If and when elected officials find a circumstance to extend their stay in office without additional elections, then your naziphobia will be warranted. Of course that will also be the time when the right to bear arms will suddenly seem like a real good idea to all the folks who would currently like to disarm the citizenry while at the same time crying foul every time the government acts like, well, a government.
Now, for the truly paranoid, consider how much of that stuff is designed in US or allies of the US who have a track record of systems like Echelon, have the technical sophistication to design and install such devices and are intent on establishing a global hegemony via any means necessary.
All this China is going to cause the sky to fall is kinda getting old, paranoid and slightly offensive. How did the (peaceful) Japan-threat go? China will get more powerful (along with Europe, India, Russia and Brazil), but their growth rate will level off, just as Japan did.
Sure, it is possible that China is engaged in some massive spying operation (and you shouldn't dismiss it), but on balance of probabilities, this Slashdot comment is far more likely to pass through multiple US-controlled spying devices. Let's keep things in perspective.
You, my friend, no nothing of encryption. I am by no means an expert, but let me educate you a little.
Current synchronous algorithms (e.g. AES, Blowfish) are exceptionally secure. 256-bit AES, for example is rated as secure enough for top secret information, stuff that neds to stay encrypted decades into the future.
As a quick test, i just AES-256 encrypted a 10MB file using my celeron 850. It took about 5 seconds. There is absolutely no reason why any recent pocketpc can't encrypt/decrypt a VOIP call on the fly.
The only problem with synchronous algorithms is key exchange. Both parties need to have the same key, and therefore need to have a way to communicate unintercepted.
This is where asynchronous algorithms come into play. An asynchronous algorithm has two seperate keys for the encrypted data: The public key, and the private key. The public key can only be usd o encrypt data, and the private key can only be used to decrypt it. So: Alice gives Bob her publi key. Bob uses the public key to encrypt his AES-256 key, and ten send this back to Alice. Alice then decrypts this using her private key, and then alice and bob can have a secre VOIP conversation.
Sounds complicated? A similar procedure takes place in a matter of seconds whenever you connect to an SSL website.
So in conclusion, effective encryption technologies are available to the masses. And ave been, for some time. For ayone who really cares, the technology is there to securely encrypt any communications you want.
If anyone wants some links to some apps, let me know.
All you have to do is the following: 1)Replace the word "Greek" by US in the title 2)Realise that the USA president's phone calls are monitored by an external intelligence agency. 3)Rethink about your initial reply.... 4)It does matter. Not for the sake of national security(of any country), but for the sake of everyone who wants some decent level of privacy and believes in the basic principles of democracy. P.S. Does my expression of the above make me a potential terrorist? I guess I'll know in a couple of hours when they come for me...
There is a difference between people not caring, and people not knowing.
That said, I'm not quite sure why you bring up the right to bear arms. I'm supposing that you simply cast me as someone who would be against it due to my previous post? On the contrary, I'm very well for the right to bear arms. The best way to stop a police state is with weapons. That is a case where you need quick action, for if the police state is allowed to continue for long, the people will be indoctrined towards it and would thus resist attempts to free themselves.
On a side note: Explain what you mean by 'naziphobia'.
Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
What argument could you possibly make that the citizenry is walking about blind to what is going on when you are posting in response to a public story about eavesdropping, when NSA activities are constantly in the headlines, when every armchair theorist in America operates under the premise that the government has been, is and will be spying on everyone it can... The citizenry is well aware. They simply do not care. They don't care about Guantanemo, they don't care about secret CIA prisons, they don't care about collateral damage in Iraq, Afghanistan, wherever. The amount of people saying nothing in this country astronomically outweighs the relative few who are making a noise and trying to get their message across via protests and the media.
If people really felt things were going to hell, why are they doing nothing about it? It is certainly not due to a lack of information sources. What used to be called treason, is now called honest and probing journalism or whistleblowing (eg, the NSA and numerous other 'leaks'). Government officials can't even catch some head from an intern without it becoming front page news. There is -no- shortage of information for the people to digest.
Naziphobia - fear of Nazi style tactics/governance. Prompted by "I could bring up Nazis" in your original post.
Your sig:
Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
Those crazy super religious communists and facists! Killing all those millions of people in the name of Jesus! The mass murders of the 20th century, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot etc etc all were religious zealots!
Oh... wait a second. Erhh...
What's unreasonable about this? You're in a position of importance regarding the olympics or anything, for that matter. What's wrong with monitoring you to ensure there's no wrongdoing. Paranoia of "blackmail" aside, there is no issue. What if you get a seemingly unimportant call, but everyone else on your "staff" or whatever gets the same call? Hopefully someone doing the listening can piece things together.
Why not come out and say what they are doing? Because no matter how secret you try to make something, it always leaks. The best you can hope for is that the leak occurs after you've gotten the information you need or ensured there's nothing wrong going on.
---John Holmes...
So a smart guy gave his opinion. That doesn't make it law, does it? I disagree with Ben. I'm sure other's do, too. I could care less what's monitored so long as the data gets to the right people who can hopefully do something with it. History has shown that even when they're given the right data, it's hard to piece it all together. You really think Airman Snuffy listening to your cell phone call about WoW really gives a flying flip what you say?
---John Holmes...
I'd think a foreign government would have to be bloody daft to accept any sort of tech built in the US where any sensitive communication is going to take place. I don't think so. Vodafone is headquartered in Newbury, UK. So, Mr. Bond, don't bother to dissemble. And BTW, what WERE you doing with those communications? I thought of handicapping a book on the selection process.
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
Anarchism is absence of government, not absence of money. Well, absence of fiat money comes with absence of government, but money fared perfectly well before governments monopolised it.
just have a look on the list of names of the persons that were spied upon, it is publicly available on the mainstream media.
I am surprised that this story made headlines. In the age of electronic and wireless communications one should assume that all conservations are monitored, without exception (the only limiting factor being the cost, which is not that high nowadays). Just read some books of former spies and you can quickly understand that no small country is safe from spying. Today, saying that a politician's phone was tapped is like saying that Windoze is full of bugs. Expected news is no real news, and I cannot believe all the hype appearing on Greek media. It seems to me like Greeks are not accustomed with modern surveillance.
It is worth noting that only one of the three cellular network operators in Greece was providing services to the people whose phones were tapped, and that a day before the company notified the prime minister, one of the managers of that company was found burned in his house (reported as a suicide). The press also says that the company completely destroyed the surveillance software detected in its systems.
Since i'm living there, I'll try to give some info as packed as possible...
104 phones of 46 people were targeted for 10-11 months approximately (April 2004 - early March 2005)
the list of these people's name was publiced on Thursday (2nd February 2006)..
It includes: the prime minister, minister of defence, major of athens, high officials, an attorney, lawyers of political prisoners, human rights activists, well-known anarchists and radical leftists, one al jazeera journalist, arab businessmen and journalists that covered the war on Iraq.
On 7th March 2005, a high Vodafone executive discovers the suspected software running on certain phone-lines... On 8th March the same man shuts down the suspected software. On 9th March the vice-president of the IT department of Vodafone is found hanged in his house.. It was considered a suicide.. Next day, on 10th March 2005 Vodafone informs the greek government..
On Thursday 2nd February 2006, a newspaper reveals the whole thing.. Some hours later, greek governement confirms what the newspaper writes.. Greek minister of public security gives a 3-hour press conference.. During that conference, he reveals that those who used the suspected software were in an area surrounded by 4 specific antennas in the center of athens.. That area covers around 1 square kilometre.. There are few houses, some hospitals, some schools in that area, but most importantly the US embassy as well as the British embassy..
The Greek public here is certain that the US secret services are the guilty..
That is a tight summary of what has been revealed here, hope it enlightened you in some way
www.lemonodor.com A mostly Lisp weblog
Haven't you seen people do something like the following:
Give you a bunch of cards saying "pick a card any card, but just one...".
It doesn't matter which card you pick, your choice already has been predetermined.
This is especially true in the US, since the top US politicians need lot of money to get anywhere in politics (unlike in some other countries where this is regulated, and so it is a bit harder).
The various companies (or rich) will sponsor (pick) the politicians from _any_ of the parties, who they think have a chance AND will support their goals. Politicians who don't support their goals don't get money.
Of course there are still differences between the parties, but over time, the companies will tend to get what they want - those who support them rise to the top, and those who don't stay stuck at the bottom.
According to opensecrets.org,for the 2004 election, Bush received and spent USD300+ million, and so did Kerry.
The other four presidential candidates in the running (excludes those who dropped out) received and spent less than USD 8 million.
The really rich usually aren't that stupid, they know a bit about "investing".
Of course I could be wrong, and the past US governments have not consistently favoured the rich and powerful...
Even if it hasn't yet, given the design/architecture of the US election process and system, I think you'd eventually get a plutocracy.
Suicide... complete destruction of the software used.
Move along, nothing to see here...
Yeah right...
> The political background is that Greece is notoriously corrupt and pro-terror.
[...]
> They ran unchecked because they paid off the Security Services
[...]
> Greece's semi-official attitude towards terrorism is extremely lax
[...]
> Fussing about bugging Greece is like fussing about bugging
> Saudi or Pakistan or Iran
Get your facts (and your mind) straight. Quick.
> if not our active at-war enemies now then certainly overtly
> hostile to our interests
While this is easily proved false, I suppose that anyone "hostile to your interests" should be expecting a bomb anytime soon, right ?
Geez. Glad you're not the one responsible for pushing any bomb-related button.
Dimitris
Go read the 4th amendment. I did when this scandal broke. That's the standard by which warrants are awarded by our courts. Bush decided that he didn't in fact need the courts to rule and that n violation of our Constitution, he'd go ahead and tap at his leisure. THAT IS AGAINST THE LAW! The last time we let a president get away with this, we had the executive branch spying on political enemies and breaking into psychologists' offices looking for dirt. The point is, you cannot trust the executive to rule on wiretaps without oversight, WHICH IS WHAT THE LAW STATES. Pay attention to the current hearings with Gonzales.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
If you don't like it, then go live in Russia. We have a fourth amendment in this country that explicitly prohibits what the President did. We also have the FISA act which explicitly declares itself as the *sole* means by which the President fulfills his fourth amendment duties in order to receive a wiretap. There's nothing wrong with taps with probable cause AND A WARRANT. If there weren't a Republican majority, Bush would be impeached and out of office. Even Republicans are saying he overstepped his bounds.
The only reason the President would piss on FISA is because he must be spying on persons that he knows he'd never get a legitimate warrant against. And, that would not be members of Al Qaida or terrorist organizations (read that as you and me).
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!