Slashdot Mirror
Bullying Affects Social Status?
An anonymous reader wrote to mention a ScienceDaily article about the social status effects of bullying on mice and men. From the article: "The results reveal neural mechanisms by which social learning is shaped by psychosocial experience and how antidepressants act in this particular brain circuit. They also suggest new strategies for treating mood disorders such as depression, social phobia and post-traumatic stress disorder, in which social withdrawal is a prominent symptom ... He and his colleagues also discovered that social defeat triggered an upheaval in gene expression in the target area of the circuit, the nucleus accumbens, located deep in the front part of the brain -- 309 genes increased in expression while 17 decreased."
"Without BDNF in the circuit, an animal can't learn that a social stimulus is threatening and respond appropriately," explained Nestler.
I hope nobody thinks this is a good thing...
If this isn't "news for nerds" I don't know what is.
Many people use Linux as a way to rebel against their social inadequacies.
getting beat up is a good thing? I swear by it, i got my ass kicked in high school and because of it, yes directly, i am no longer a pansy. i am now a man ^^, black eye and scraped skin. I can now say movies where the dog dies in the end of it (not necesarily just the one you are thinking of) make me cry (not using sarcasm).
An anonymous reader wrote to mention a ScienceDaily article about the social status effects of ... mice and men
Would the Steinbeck estate object?
but what exactly does this article mean?
"To face death, that's nothing much. But to feel really stupid when you die, well, that would be insufferable."
Why it always assumed that social withdrawal is a sign of individual sickness - but not the group itself which should stand in judgement?
I suggest you read Slashdot
In extreme cases, such as people with actual social phobias, being able to better control their disorder with anti-depressants sounds fine, but I hope this doesn't get turned around so that the "treatment" for bullying is to medicate the victim and ignore the actual cause (the actual bully)
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
But.... Bullying is what made me the man I am today. I can easily pick out the "bully" in a group and then I can use intelligence, postioning, and execution to cull that person (or personality) from my work environment. It makes my life easier and the workplace easier to go to.
On a side note, if we can treat true depression and PTSD with a gene therapy, GREAT! It will allow Veterans who went through a horrible situation to undo the psych damage and return to a normal life. Same with clinical depression. Remove the behavioral restrictions and open that person up again. I see a much happier world if this actually comes to pass!
Cliff Claven
K.E.G. Party Chairman
Founding Leader of: Koncerned for Egalitarin Governance
So parents don't have to be responsible for their bullying child anymore?
I think this novel approach to this problem is a great advancement and may lead to ways of fixing social disorders that do not result from bullying but if we could only get parents to take responsibility for their kids. Its the same problem is so many other things, video game blame games, obesity, school shootings, teenage promiscuity, ect et al. We can't control others so we have to control ourselves, I guess. Don't get me wrong, I support this; I'm just lamenting that there seems to be no other way.
Demented But Determined.
This study is interesting because it ties antidepressants right back to behavior. The percentage of Americans who use antidepressants is at least 15% and rising. Taken together, this means a sizeable segment of society is acting differently than they would have before. What, I wonder, are the aggregate impacts on society?
Isn't this Slashdot? News for Nerds?
I think this crowd knows very well the effects of bullying.
Do you mean like the CRA or IRS? Guess I need drugs to calm me down.
This supports anthropological observations of non-human primates. Low-grade harassment or even outright attack allows adolescent primates to sort out their relative status early. Humans aren't any different from our cousins in this regard. Bullying is a tactic to determine status. A harassed, bullied animal or human that doesn't hold its or his or her own is going to retreat. Naturally.
Trolls: The high-tech version of those morons that scrawl obscenities in public bathrooms.
That hings his head, an a' that?
The coward slave, we pass him by -
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an a' that,
Our toils obscure, an a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The man's the gowd for a' that.
What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an a' that?
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine -
A man's a man for a' that.
For a' that, an a' that.
Their tinsel show, an a' that,
The honest man, tho e'er sae poor,
Is king o men for a' that.
Ye see you birkie ca'd 'a lord,'
What struts, an stares, an a' that?
Tho hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a cuif for a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
His ribband, star, an a' that,
The man o independent mind,
He looks an laughs at a' that.
A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an a' that!
But an honest man's aboon his might -
Guid faith, he mauna fa' that!
For a' that, an a' that,
Their dignities, an a' that,
The pith o sense an pride o worth.
Are higher rank than a' that.
Then let us pray that come it may
[As come it will for a' that],
That Sense and Worth o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree an a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
It's comin yet for a' that,
That man to man, the world, o'er
Shall brithers be for a' that.
Robert Burns
Improved anti-depressant treatments are nice and all, but how about a treatment for the source of the problem: the bully. There are enough cases of kids picked on past the breaking point, that we should learn to focus on treating the cause not the symptoms of social abuse. Give the drugs to the jerks who feel the need to dominate and humliate.
We are all just people.
I'm not saying Republicans are bullies and Democrats are victims or anything, but there sure seem to be a lot of people who just don't "get" the need for judicial oversight, fair representation in court or congress, support for the poor, or the concept of a truly open marketplace.
[
Somehow the headline "Bullying Affects Social Status?" on site that is sub-headed as "News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters." strikes me as a little -- well, self-soothing.
I thought the "Voices from the Hellmouth" days were over...
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
This is another case of science finding the mechanism to explain what was already known for years, if not centuries. Since there is no method now known to mechanically adjust neural pathways, psychological methods must still be employed. As pointed out by others, each person can react to stimulus in different manners... for some, bad experiences can create a good outcome. This is the stuff that hazing and boot camps are meant to do.
Mechanically, or pharmacologically adjusting neural pathways is a dangerous thing. I wouldn't trust pharmocology companies to keep my best interests at heart.... ever! That said, the more that is known, the better we can learn to make life better....
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
by modding you down as "Troll", "Offtopic", or "Flamebait". ;-)
"Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
This title and summary are completely misleading. The study simply found that they could make mice ignore being bullied by breeding out a certain neurotransmitter. Why is this even on slashdot?
I'm a nerd or certainly was for one for sure. A number of years ago I started studying Buddhism (no seriously). One of the more difficult concepts of Buddhism is something called Emptiness. Basically its a philosophy that none of this crap really matters because, well, it does really exist - hence emptiness. At least not in the way we think it does.
It is our attachment to what others think (social status) that causes our unhappiness, shame and embarrassment. So if it doesn't exist then there's nothing to be attached to and nothing to be fearful of. Once I came to deeply realize this I was able to exploit it (OK, it is not what the Buddha had in mind) and achieve a much elevated social status. Even though I don't care about it, it does make my life a little easier.
So the next time someone put you on the spot just shrug your shoulders and say "what ever".
For a much more in depth look at this check out Howard Bloom's "The Lucifer Principle". It is an amazing new insight on how evolution really works, as competition between groups (superorganisms). He analyzes in depth the mechanisms that make drive this process. One of the main mechanisms is the pecking order, and the affect of an organism's (including a human) status in the pecking order on its biology is significant and surprising. I thought this book was amazing, revolutionary, and jam-packed with new ideas that ring true, supported by research from all corners of science.
Light cup, beer drink, thin so chain, neck turtle fat, man I won't say it again
The thing about society is that it seems bullies are ignored or rewarded in society. Instead it should be the opposite. They have a problem obviously that they feel the need on picking on other people. Bullying only leads to worse problems. If there are signs of bullying in schools, then those bullies should be dealt with immediately. Send them to counseling, put them on prozac or some other method in order to have them stop their violent ways. Why should people suffer because some person can't stop acting like a wild pitt bull?
What this appears to infer is that bullying is an effective social strategy. Perhaps I should say, of its own and in a limited social context.
Effective down to the biological level.
If we can acknowledge that, perhaps we can stop some of the frustrating rhetoric about how the bully is "wrong" and should be "understood".
So, the bully has something tangible to gain from their behavior. (And I mean not just the immediate response but the long term social implications.) Does "correcting" that behavior address the sole root of the problem? Or do we also need to give those bullied effective tools for dealing with the bullying and for maintaining self esteem? Do we let them know just how important it is to maintain that self-esteem? (The article is saying that in failing to do so, they essentially become hard-wired for a different and seemingly less satisfying social role).
The bullying exists within a social context with constraining bounds. The parent of a bullied child can't go an beat the cr*p out of the bully -- not without going to jail. There are already limits that have been decided upon. So, we get to make choices. Can we then also choose and foster, at least to some extent, the types of personalities we wish to see succeed? The type of society we with to propagate?
For my part, if I ever have kids, they will have martial arts training. That part is a simple decision for me. It won't solve every problem, but it will increase the odds considerably that they won't find themselves forced to be pushed around, at least physically. And perhaps a good instructor can help with some of the mental aspects, as well -- I understand that is an essential component of good training.
you little pipsqueak, come over here and say that!
Raise your children as if you were teaching them to raise your grandchildren, because you are.
I had more than my bad share of experiences growing up.
It taught me a few things;
- an extreme lack of respect for arbitrary authority
- people in power are worthless and not to be trusted
- most people are defective and broken, spineless followers
- knowing the above makes them easily manipulated
I credit bullying and lack of respect for social constructs with an extreme, passionate desire to succeed - at any cost. Rather than withdraw from society, I just used my brains to figure out how to manipulate people. Spent a year gaining weight and working out. Invested time in learning psychological techniques to maniupulate people. If you're smarter than the bullies; prove it.
20 years later, they call me boss.
I suspect my story is more common than you might think. Unfortunately, I also suspect bullying destroys far more people - but, hey, that's darwin for you.
aren't you so clever?
. . . but I was to afraid to show up for the photo shoot.
."
I'm allowed to make jokes like that because, well . . .
STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT!
. . . no, seriously, I know what those damn mice feel like . .
HEY, MR. HAND, SLUGGO GOING TO BE MEAN TO ME!
Could someone please translate this into lay speak? Damn it, Jim, I'm a computer scientist, not a biologist!
How is this a good thing? It says that if they turn off your ability to learn the signs that a situation is potentially dangerous, you won't develop "social avoidance behaviour" due to bullying. That's nice, but wouldn't that mean you have to give the treatment BEFORE the subject is bullied? What does that due to being able to cope in real life? Would the subject end up being more prone to being mugged, raped, or caught in various violent situations due to his/her inability to recognize threatening behaviour and respond appropriately? This doesn't seem at all useful or even particularly enlightening. People know extensive bullying as a child often causes those social issues, and it'd be nice to get rid of them, but the only real solution is to get rid of the bullies - NOT to cripple the poor kids' ability to learn on the suspicion that they might be bullied later on.
People respond to bullying in different ways. One way is to run and tell the teacher, the other way is to fight back and get beat up. I think there are Democrats and Republicans who like big government and use the government as a teacher, and you have people who may fight back in either party, or who are independents.
So that is a difficult question. Civil Liberties, you'd think that if the government is big and powerful enough that everyone, bullies included would lose civil liberties, but I suppose they'd also be the first to fight to keep them.
every problem can be solved with sufficient doses of drugs.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Well said. See also "cough medicine" and nasal decongestants.
Shop as usual. And avoid panic buying.
This news article is in reference to a Science magazine article: (http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/sci;31 1/5762/864 "Essential Role of BDNF in the Mesolimbic Dopamine Pathway in Social Defeat Stress").
This study is complicated because it relies on two systems, 1) a molecular learning system; 2) a neural-network-based reward / social-interaction pathway system. Social anxiety appears to rely on an input that creates a state, such as the recipient of repeated agression, and then storing that state. Simply, you have to realize you are the subject of aggression, that has to elevate an internal state and then you have to remember that state.
Memory has many hallmarks, which often include genetic regulation. There term "memory" is somewhat vague in molecular terms, but with a little hand waving, we can just use the common definition. BDNF has long been associated with molecular memory. It is not surprising that BDNF could have an role in learning a behavioral response to repeated aggression that transduces the signal to lasting genetic modifications. This is not to belittle the findings, as it is a great demonstration of the in vivo need for BDNF and confirms many predictions. This was one of the major findings of the study. It seems like the system may be a great model to study learning and memory at the genetic level and perhaps molecular levels as well in vivo.
Anti-depressants similarly would be expected to have a role in the pathway since they can treat the symptoms in humans. The authors themselves state, "The observation that chronic but not acute treatments with antidepressant partly restore social approach behavior in defeated mice further validates this model," which I agree supports the model they are presenting to study a reduced form of social interaction pathologies in humans, since both respond to similar treatment strategies. It is likely that anti-depressants are acting upstream of BDNF by reducing the stress-related or aggression-recepient-related signaling that leads to memory formation, though in my cursory reading of their paper, I did not see if the two phenomena occluded, that is mutually blocked one another, an indication that they are in the same pathway.
Regarding the title of the summary article linked from Slashdot, "Mice Lacking Social Memory Molecule Take Bullying In Stride," I think it is ignorant of the larger picture because mice lacking BDNF will also be essentially retarded, having deficits in memory, learning and the visual system. I guess they will be blissfully happy, but I think paints too rosy of a picture.
the human animals at the top of the dominance hierarchy like it there. They are satisfied. So therefore they act as an ideological filter. They control the mass media and popular entertainment, and so any idea that makes it through their ideological filter, that idea gets disseminated.
Ideas that get disseminated are those that AFFIRM in a good way the dominance hierarchy now in existence. Meaning of course the "status quo."
Funny thing is that by definition any hierarchy must have only a few at the top.
However, Americans have ideologically been domesticated because the elite have evolved a culture that affirms power and the dominance hierarchy.
All societies do this to some degree, but the American culture used to be MUCH MORE critical of the dominance hierarchy. In part, this change is due to the mass media propaganda cultural evolution that the elite has worked upon America.
But part is also due to the benefits from technology and the steady accumulation of knowledge (which grows at an exponential rate). This technology advance makes us more comfortable than 100 years ago. So we put up with more of the dominance hierarchy.
The Ameican Revolution for example was really a revolution of the people against the elite, but the elite subverted it with the Declaration of Independence propaganda and other dirty tricks.
Anywho...
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Why is it that the bullied person must change? They are harming nobody through their actions. It is the violent bully who harms others. 'Fighting back' makes you feel better, but does nothing to solve the inherant problem: bullies.
In your own words, you thought less of yourself until you changed your behaviour to match that of the bullies who did you harm. You became one of them, in a way.
I think you are cheating yourself.
Blar.
Violence that begets violence never ends. Violence that results in financial and social penalties has a limited life span.
Pining for the fjords
This is the correct way to deal with it. You are right, there are ways to intellectually fight bullies. Bullies can only bully you when they have the advantage, either politically, economically, physically, etc. The only way to deal with a bully is to use your advantages against theirs. If the bully is not smarter than you, then all their advantages will be worthless.
If you work with a bully and they arent your boss, then you are equals. It's you against them. It does make perfect sense to take on the bully first because its your job to control the environment in which you work, and if you don't want to work with an asshole you shouldnt quit your job.
Ultimately, bullying is about power, if you don't want to be bullied, then you need access to power. This does not need to be physical power, you may have legal power, you may have intelligence power, any kind of power is all you need to counter a bully.
Linux is STILL for fags.
This is no cure. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. If there is something more pathetic than being picked on, it is KISSING UP and continuing to TREAT WITH RESPECT the very a-holes engaged in the bullying. What is this shit? Reverse engineer me the EXACT OPPOSITE.
I'm not saying Republicans are bullies and Democrats are victims or anything, but there sure seem to be a lot of people who just don't "get" the need for judicial oversight, fair representation in court or congress, support for the poor, or the concept of a truly open marketplace.
There are loads of people in this discussion who seem to think this treatment is bad because punishing the bully should come first. The issues you describe are more of a rational "take a step back" view on things, while reacting with anger, wanting to punish the bad guy, seems to be an emotional reaction, something the victim would see as the problem before he's had a chance to calm down.
Consider this; a bully pushes you in the schoolyard, you fall, scrape your knee and start crying. A teacher saw the whole thing and walks up. What would you want to happen? Revenge!
Now, you're the teacher and the same thing happens. A little kid pushes another. The other scrapes his knee, starts crying. He's now on the ground, bleeding and crying. Which kid do you handle first?
To bring it back to he left/right thing; "That bully nees a good ass-whupping" would be a right-wing view, imo.
actually, if social defeats cause the effects they suggest, someone bigger pounding on the bullies might be as effective as I've always suggested..
Ok, first of all, I was bullied all the way through school. In public school, the bullying took the shape of beatings and physical attacks. In particular, a mean little shit named Scott D---- used me to "build his rep" (New York public schools work like prisons, socially). After I almost killed one of the bullies in the seventh grade (I got him in a chokehold and turned his face purple, then was attacked by twenty of his friends in, basically, a riot) I got pulled out of school.
I went to a private school in New Jersey, where the bullying wasn't physical, it was mental. I was one of the only poor kids there, and the rich kids would make fun of my clothes, my mannerisms, my lack of money, the fact that I wasn't invited to their parties, etc. I turned inwards, focusing on science and math and became one of the best students in the school; I drew comfort from the fact that I was one of the three smartest kids in the whole place. We geeks hung out together, and for the first time, I actually had some friends. This was very instructive.
When I went to college, I was again picked on off and on, but it was much more subdued. I knew some karate by that point but it wasn't enough. I was getting really tired of being so weak that other people could actually CHOOSE to pick on me and finally, I did something about it. I figured, if I can make myself so tough that the bullies THEMSELVES were afraid of me, maybe everyone would leave me in peace. So I did.
I joined the Marine Corps as a grunt, and found myself in a raid unit. This was essentially an infrantry unit which was almost (but not quite) special forces, whose duty it was to attack and destroy enemy bases at night, taking no prisoners and leaving nothing functional. Blowing up SAM sites, fire bases, things like that. That's what we were taught, anyway. We weren't used in combat, which I was quite happy about. But I did learn how to fight (and kill) on a level much more aggressive than most civilians ever do.
Smack dab in the middle of my enlistment, my unit was on float when Gulf War I happened. Again, we weren't used, we ended up floating offshore for 110 days, in a ship's berthing which had no air conditioning. It was like, 120+ degrees during the day and 70 at night. We were miserable. The tougher marines (keeping in mind that at six feet tall and 220 pounds, I was only mid-size for my unit) started beating on me because I was a "goddamn college kid" and so on. The longer they went without drinking, the more pissed off they got. I won't tell you the rest of that particular story, but eventually when I returned to the civilian world, I was quite a bit meaner and tougher than when I'd left it.
Luckily, for some reason, at 6' and 250 (when I got back) with skull tattoos and all that, people just didn't seem to want to pick on me anymore. Over the course of several years, I gradually relaxed and became more peaceful. I went back to college and studied Mechanical Engineering, but that didn't work out for me (no career prospects) and I switched to something I found more fun, i.e. computer science. I got my degree, had my dot-com experiences, and ended up working for the government.
It took me TEN YEARS to heal over all the mental scars I picked up in the marines (and earlier, in school). It's only been in the past few years that I've really started to feel relaxed, without the sense that ANY MINUTE something terrible is going to happen to me. Only lately have I been comfortable trusting someone who wasn't a blood relative (and then, only if I can determine that our interests are aligned enough that the person won't be tempted to screw me).
To this day, I don't trust people in general. I see the human race as petty, selfish, nasty, and fickle, with a mean-streak a mile wide that only needs an opportunity to show itself. I do my best to avoid crowds, gatherings, any sort of grouping of people... I try to be invisible, someone you wouldn't even look twice at. And I avoid others as best I can.
Sometimes I think a great crime has
Why is it that the bullied person must change?
:-)
From my own past experience it was because I lacked social skill. Unlike mice, it is possible for people to learn this if it doesn't come naturally. Bullies come and go but there is no need to withdraw from society. Avoiding bullies, though, is a good strategy because they probably aren't such good company even if they happen to be nice to you! Better to adapt and build on making positive friendships with more positive people. Being and having meaningful friends is a powerful place to be
So a big thanks to all the bullies you helped me get there. Wonder where they are now?
I've seen some kids growing up in a very loving community with very loving parents and excellent role models. Some of them are wonderful and use the resources at their disposal to grow strong and compassionate. But I've seen some really shitty kids who enjoy hurting and manipulating other kids. I think the individual person decides the route through life.
So teaching your kids Kung Fu is certainly fine, but there's nothing to say that one or more of your kids still won't grow up to be bullies. --Not even the very best in parenting can stop this. It can color the results and take the edge off perhaps, but from what I've seen, horrible people will use all the tools they have available to hurt others if that is their imperative.
-FL
You became one of them, in a way.
So you're saying standing up to a bully makes you a bully? My guess is the bullies are the ones who withdraw from social situations when they get their butts kicked. People who make friends with the butt-kickers and become stronger from the experience sound more like the mice missing this gene.
I guess this goes to show, sometimes not being able to learn something is a good thing.
So to apply what they learned in the study of mice to our own society, we need to breed out the aforementioned gene. As the first step to accomplishing this, I will require all /. readers to immediately cease all reproductive activities. If only there was some way to ensure such a system is successfully implemented... like if we could some how cause the opposite sex to not be attracted to us or something. This could take time... and money. Lots and lots of money. If only there were people in this world to help me fund such a study that would have blatantly obvious results...
Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?
Yes, namely you. Which is why must change: otherwise, you'll keep getting bullied.
Fighting back (succesfully) solves the problem of getting bullied. Doing it in a brutal enough fashion might also discourage the bullies from picking a new target out of fear of getting the crap beaten out of them again, neutralizing that particular source of evil permanently.
Succesfully defeating your tormentors will also fill you with confidence, since you have proven that you can take care of itself, and therefore refer to that incidence whenever you need reassurance; on the other hand, not being able to protect yourself makes you avoid social situations because you (correctly) learn that you have a good chance of getting physically harmed in them, and that the institutions (such as courts) of the society won't help you (they're too busy making excuses for the bullies, trying to make the little demons seem like unfortunate victims of broken homes or some other bullshit like that).
People who have been bullied often have problems with social situtations, feeling threatened in them, and these problems are often treated with medicine. However, what these people really need is to learn some particularly nasty fighting techniques, and do so before the bullies disappear from their lives - they need to prove to themselves that they can handle an attacker, and the only way to do that is to actually handle one. The bullies are an ideal target, since they deserve to get beaten up by their victim.
Getting beaten up daily is a pretty inconvertible proof that you're less than whoever is beating you up, since if you weren't, you could stop them. Becoming strong enough to stop them, or even to beat them up in turn, is proof that this is no longer the case.
As long as society refuses to put bullies to prison where violent criminals belong, any claim that the ability to win a fight doesn't make you a bigger man than others directly contradicts observed reality and will thus be rejected as bullshit. As long as the law of the jungle is allowed to reign supreme, it is foolish to except anyone to care whether or not something is right or not according to some other law. After all, it might be illegal for others to beat you up, but that won't stop them; beating them up, however, does. What other conclusion than "might is right" can be drawn from this ? Why would anyone who lives under the law of the jungle believe anything else ? They can, after all, see for themselves that it is true in their lives and that no other law can protect them.
No, he has adapted to the situation in a way that enables survival. The method of adaptation (getting tough enough to whitstand it) may or may not be ideal, but it has nothing to do with self-deception.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Because in ALL aspects of life you either change to meet the challange, or you stagnate and become irrelevant.
Nature isn't a socialist paradise. Life isn't "fair". You either work to better yourself and solve your problems, or your problems will destroy you.
It's still a chicken-and-the-egg thing. Lots of dumb kids get bullied but don't turn into geniuses. And smart kids stand out as teacher's pets even if they are not and hance get teased or bullied. Which came first? Brain changes or intelligence?
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Did anyone else think it was kind of a weird coincidence that this entire rat-based research project was conducted by an institute called NIMH?
But I choose solitude. Is it not the geeky thing to do? I don't mean, fortifying myself in my room, switching off the lights, and avoiding outside contact with the universe, I mean, generally keeping away from the "ordinary populace".
I'll be honest, normal people annoy me. Perhaps it is elitism, or maybe I just see myself as "different", although that seems to come straight from a book on politically correct speech. I don't like normal people. I don't like interacting with them, not because I fear them, but because they're just SO boring. I don't care about football, or "like, how totally scandalous Sarah's new hairdo" is. Normal people seem shortsighted and keep nothing below the surface, and have an interest in whatever the media and pack mentality pushes on them.
I go to a school for "gifted" children, or supposedly the top ten percent in any case, an English Grammar School, and I was bullied, I really was, but it taught me so much about humans and how society operates. I saw how countless "leaders" of packs coerced and forced others, who I could see did not want to bully me, get pushed into it, and happily tried to apply pain to me, simply to save their own skin, stay popular and not stand up for their own opinions. Over time, I could see them get intoxicated with the power over me and happily coerce others into it. Some people are such simple creatures, that socialising with them would just be boring. The bullying stopped once I just stood up for myself, because, hey, no bully has any real courage when confronted, they enjoy picking on the weakest in the largest possible pack, which they're always attempting to increase in size, after all.
I have friends, but I choose a few good, non-normal friends over the armies of "friends" everyone else has, who are nice to each other simply to save face and not be socially outcast, the worst possible punishment of all.
I would be seen as socially outcast, and perhaps with a "social phobia", but this is all by choice, to avoid people I just don't care about, and I'm not the only one, there are more than a handful in my school. For example, one of my female friends and I were discussing something geeky, along the lines of whether stargates were physically possible, when some girl swanned up to her (because she was female and OBVIOUSLY part of a pack, by standard) and said,
"OOhmigawd, did you see what Gwen Stephanie wore at the MTV awards? I mean, totally disasterous!"
"....I didn't watch it."
"Oh, poor YOU, don't worry, I think it's like, repeating on sunday or something."
"No, I just really don't care about it."
*Girl stands there for a minute, with a half puzzled, half offended look, before spying someone else to go and verbally assualt and rushes off*
Perhaps I'm an extreme, and very pessimistic, but why is avoiding branches of society always seen as an illness? Us geeks and nerds, we tend to make up a large proportion of the excellent minds of humanity, the open minded sector, why is it that they try to "treat" us? We affect humanity more with our research and interests, more than the guy who's going to lay bricks for a living, but is socially accepted ever will? Why not try it the other way around? Why arn't THEY at fault?
I guess for several reasons. People don't like to think they're wrong, and when most people don't want to be wrong, groupthink makes sure they're right, and their society is best. Management likes us to comply. Different thinking people only cause problems, whereas cattlepeople are easy to manage and handle. This works on every level, even some parents would prefer their children to be non geeks and normal, so the punishment of "go to your room, and you're not going out for three days" would actually work. Society also doesn't like splinter cells, they are scary, and different. If they can be forced to comply, the threat is gone, and obviously the status quo. was therefore correct.
I have geeky interests. I have a few close true friends. I like so
Hey learn to spell challenge....LOL : ) I do agree with you to a certain extent, but you can't control other people's actions, especially when they have agendas to annoy people and think of it as a game. Assh*les are assh*les....the victim should either try to ignore their behavior if at all possible or confront the nastiness head on, trust me if that doesn't work, post on slashdot and rant or just run away. ; ) That is the problem though, mice are mean to have a pecking order. Mice are animals. People are mammals. And we have this handy thing called "language and communication" to resolve our problems, not a computer.....pfft..../rant over
Oh by the way that previous comment was from a woman that received some serious harrassment on your site from ACs, dupes and other strange stuff you Linux guys think up in your spare time. I received verbal and mental harrassment from people from the wonderful world of college at PSUCK U, which I don't go to anymore because I got tired of fighting the attitudes of young men/women with entitlement issues and thought they were hilarious, eh I guess.
I truly don't know what their problem was, but I do know it is not my problem. But guess what, I didn't feel like a mouse, I don't even like cheese. I am a human, a woman, *gasp* and completely normal. Next their will be a virgin birth on slashdot since a woman is posting on this site. Next time I post I promise I will say something intelligent. Post an Apple article, and for my next trick I will talk about computers intelligently too, but only if you give me a treat first....LOL ; )
I can understand if someone finds themselves in a bad situation where they are the one getting pushed around, but it sounds like you consistently found yourself in this situation all through life. The only common denominator here is you. Whether you realize it or not, you brought it on yourself through your actions.
Whether it's in kindergarten, grade school, middle school, high school, college, or the Marines, people wanted to kick your ass. You could travel to a faraway, mystical place and people want to kick your ass.
What does that tell you?
I've been bullied since 3rd grade, back then it was about my parents, now it's about my skills and personality/identity. Eight years of constant mental torturing (I'm now in high school/11th grade, sophomore) and I'm still alive, mostly thanks to computers and books (Nietszche and Machiavelli are my favs).
Per Aspera Ad Astra.
Life is better for me now that I left a really terrible school situation. I left a situation where I was getting seriously blasted daily with annoying and harrassing behavior online and in person. It agitated me to no end and I knew I couldn't do too much about it, so I kept letting it go. I dealt with it a year. And I dealt with this crap while I had some serious "real" adult problems in my marriage, personal and work life while I was trying to just go to school and learn. I received so much harrassment at my college, (I am a former student at PSUCK U) that I decided to leave, honestly it was that bad. I hated it there so much, I couldn't sleep, eat, or think, it was the worst experience I ever had anywhere, EVER socially.
That was how much damage the harrassment did to me. I had several silly college pranks played on me, I was harrassed through hidden emails and even some of the harrassers probably post to Slashdot. I even confronted the people I thought where fucking with me. They of course are cowards and decided to lie to me about silly shit that could have gotten settled in a few minutes, instead they choose to fuck around for a year. I was not putting up with it anymore, so I left and I am going into a completely online program at another local school. Since they like to play around behind the veil of AC, I guess it is fitting to post an AC comment. I didn't really feel like a mouse though, I don't even like cheese. : )
But guess what, if you would like to post an article about computers, I will say something relatively intelligent, but since I am a woman, I don't know, you might die of shock that a *woman* is actually posting here...LOL : ) But since I am a mammal, I am not too worried about assholes on your site that think anonymous posting about harrassing women. Yes, this is me guys....do not worry, I won't come to your house and beat you up, I said that for effect to the people harrassing and it still didn't get rid of them. Eh, either way, I am much happier now that I don't have to deal with those people anymore, whoever they were, they declined to tell me, since they were too afraid I guess to back up their own words, but since I am not afraid to back up my own words, trust me, contact me whoever you are, this is Vicki McPherson, I am not afraid to post my name to back up my words, no joke, assh*les, I don't have anything against anyone and I don't hurt people, I might rant at them, but eh I thought they were semi silly, but I am sure they had their reasons to annoy me....wither way I am happy I don't deal with those people anymore in any way. Life is too short to annoy or harrass people. Actually now that I think about it, life might be too short to post on Slashdot. LOL ; )
Because most of the time social withdrawal is a sign of mental health issues. Are you going to try and prove otherwise? Or were you simply being argumentive and philosophical?
You're a dumbass. dumbity-dumb-dumb-dumbass.
Why the hell is bullying not more of sign of mental health issues?? Do bullies ever turn out to be healthy adults? Dumbass. Yet how many introverted kids, not only turn out fine, but end up doing great things... like say Abraham Lincoln? Dumbass.
Shit I knew smarty-pants know-it-alls like you in school... and I'd kick their dumb-ass dumbasses and make them eat dirt. Shit, how can you be such a know-it-all, if you don't even think about the things you think you know?? ya know?
Dumbass.
Medicate the bullies, and leave the nerds alone!
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
So people and mice who are exposed to social defeat tend to become less social? Apparently someone had research money to blow.
OTOH, they found that mice became more social again when given antidepressants. This makes me very, very afraid that they are going to start trying to force-drug children who don't get picked immediately for four-square teams during recess.
I really have to wonder when some people are going to realize that the composition of a person's brain should be between that person and God. Oh, wait, some people are a bit too busy with their friends to think about stupid things like psychological morality.
Real men don't use "^^".
All this bullying research is just a lot of talk until it can answer the age-old question for the bully's target:
A: Fight back with everything you've got, even if you're certain to lose
B: Get someone else to fight for you if you're certain they'll win
C: Do what the bully makes you do
D: Run away
In the event the bully targets you again, especially after C and/or D:
E: Choose another option from A-D
F: Lay a trap, even if it kills/maims the bully
And also whether making it through the initial confrontation in order to report the bully to an authority is wise.
All these tactics have up/downsides. We need research to analyze the bully. Preemptive jujitsu classes aren't enough, and being the bully has too much downside of its own.
--
make install -not war
Bullies are basically cowards, they always pick on someone that they believe that they beat up, and never pick on anyone that they believe can beat them up.
Where does this trait come from? Usually they are the victim of some sort of either psychological or physical violence themselves, perhaps at home, that leaves them with an aberrant self image. I know that there came a time that I was big enough to beat the crap out of someone who had bullied me when they had been bigger than me. But would that have solved the underlying problem, which is basically how and the why they feel about themselves?
In my experience as adults the bullies have the biggest problem fitting in, because this social predisposition does not fit in very well in the present day workplace.
People are like bug-ridden programs. If the program gets the wrong input, it triggers the buffer overflow bug. Of course we can say that the person sending the special crafted input (the bully) should be punished, but the program have to be be fixed in order to avoid the problem in the future. If the program is not fixed, somebody else will exploit the exact same bug. A buffer overflow doesn't harm anybody except for the user. And a bullied person doesn't harm anybody except him or herself. Or to stretch the analogy even further, an exploited program could be used to exploit other computers, just as a bullied person could become a bully himself without even realising it.
I'm not saying that bullies (or script kiddies) should not get away without consequences, but it doesn't solve the problem for the attacked person. The bullies pick easy targets, and by changing attitude you become a harder target. It isn't easy to change attitude, but it is easier than changing all the bullies you will meet in the world. Just as it might not be easy to fix all the bugs, it is still easier than to stop the rest of the world from exploiting them.
Personally, I think Sartre was correct: "Hell is other people."
/* 0x2b | ~0x2b is in fact -1 */
The ultimate solution would be to bring back the old pre-Christian northern European tradition of single combat to the death but with rules that would allow some reasonable selective pressure:
Any voting adult may be challenged to formal combat to the death by a public notice 48 hours prior to the commencement of said combat.
If it has not already done so, a jury of community elders selected by the individuals involved conveins to attempt to mediate, not arbitrate, the dispute. If a resolution acceptable to the two parties is arrived at prior to the 48 hour time limit, then the challenge can be withdrawn.
During this time the jury also decides on a wilderness area within which the combat is to take place in the event no resolution is reached. The area is chosen to be large enough to allow strategy.
The formal combat begins with the two combatants entering opposites of the wilderness area, equipped with a 10 inch sword and 15 meters of strong cordage.
No observers. No rules within the combat area.
One emerges alive.
Seastead this.
Bullies need to meet a painful and brutal end. They deserve to get blown away, pushed down the stairs, and poisoned. I would love it if bullies started getting scared of being killed or mutilated by thier victims. If I ever sat on a jury over some geeky kid who eventually killed his tormenters, I'd let him go, and clap him on the back. Probably buy him a beer, as well. It's just too bad that some innocents will die. At a certain point, the kid will think he has to kill his oppressors. This is a reaction that I anticipate will happen more and more as a result of being bullied.
It's the repetition that changes the brain chemistry by the mentioned expressions. It explains a lot about the 'walking wounded' that I know of in life, the agorophobics, anti-socials, and the like.
Hardening them would help, as you mention; but identifying them is diffficult because by their nature, they're going to hide and not interact. This describes too many people that I know.... and unfortunately makes a lot of sense.
Reducing them to programs, however, is perhaps mis-applied. I'm thinking now this is more of an algorithm or a subroutine, not a whole main(). It's a response to stimulus.... a sophisticated one.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I vaguely remember being bullied in Kindergarten... then I used my brain and gathered together a group of like-minded kids and we beat the fuck out of the bullies on a regular basis... in middle school I got picked on a little again... and so I started pretending to be a NAZI and I used fear to keep the bullies too scared to do anything to me... good times... if you have a brain you should be able to easily manipulate the situation to your favor, especially in a closed enviroment like a School. --Peace
For all people interested in society's new love of behaviour drugs, look up Thomas Sasz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Szasz. Basically he says if it can't be scientifically verified, like cancer, then it should be unlawful to force treatment on something so subjective, and instead be left as a private matter between the individual and the doctor.
Three quotes I like that apply to this subject are Roosevelt's "Talk softly and carry a big stick" and Malcolm X's "Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." and "Power never takes a back step - only in the face of more power." Kids should be taught to fight back if they have to, preferably before it becomes a problem. I also, for many more reasons than I care to list here, am in favor of keeping gun laws that let me have a gun (training is essential for anyone, and I don't have kids).
The only way martial arts classes are to a kid's advantage are if it has actual fighting, even limited by rules and pads. I took Olympic-style competition Taekwondo (similar to kickboxing) as a kid and competed regularly. Basically, one learns to dodge, block, take a hit, and counterattack best when under the pressure of neccessity. Better that be in a ring with refs, judges, and spectators than out in the parking lot after school. Once I picked a fight with two guys bullying some kids, and I was able to kick their asses mostly because I knew that they weren't intent on crippling or killing me and I wasn't afraid of anything less than that. Next week in school they jumped me, and once again I knew I wasn't in any real danger so I didn't fight back. Only they were in trouble for fighting on school grounds, which was a mandatory suspension (a stupid rule - how can one defend themself?).
There's a difference between being unsocial and antisocial. Someone who is unsocial, in my opinion, is someone who would rather be alone or with a small group of real friends doing something that is actually fun, cool, and intellectually stimulating (i.e. not watching football, 'dancing' which is really sex with clothes on, drinking, gossiping, or talking about nothing, or doing drungs - unless you call drungs mentally stimulating). Antisocial people feel no emotions toward others, essentially treating people like objects or machines.
Lastly, I disagree with Pelt. I hate humanity, but can stand some people.
The 'Net is a waste of time, and that's exactly what's right about it. - William Gibson
Your kids are four and not socializing well in pre-school and you are defending this as something like it is positive! Four year olds have it made, when they socialize the simplest things make them happy like pretending they are monster trucks, playing tag, play wrestling etc. and you are happy your kids are gonna miss out by not socializing? For young kids things are so simple. If a eight year old boy has another eight year old boy as a neighbor and they are allowed to socialize together it is easy to become friends. But when they get older there will be cliques, topicalization and subculture that could easily prevent this. Maybe that eight year old is now an eighteen year old who is into the tatoo, punk rock subculture and his former friend is into the hip hop subculture, they live next door still but they never talk even when they sit together in school. All four year olds are speaking the language and have the same interest: to play, there is no highly nuanced cliques developed yet and you are gonna let them miss out? Take them out to parks more often and let them play for their sake. Get over your always right attitude, because your kids are missing a phase that will not come back.
A sick society drives away healthy people.
My ancestors had to leave Germany when the Fascism began getting out of control,
with the spying on the citizens and secret prisons, etc etc (sound like any president you know?)
History shows that the people who fled Germany (early, while you could still get out alive and with most of your money.) - well, they were Correct!
Was that withdrawing from society? You bet. Did they make a wrong choice? No.
Brothers, Monks, Priests, Sisters - Jews, Catholics, Buddhists, whatever - they see their sick society for what it is, and
either - want to change it, want to leave it, or want to change themselves somehow so they can deal with it, and maybe make the world a better place one person at a time.
I wonder how people constantly put up with the murders and crime, pollution, increasing taxes, decreasing wages, government lying, government corruption, and generally horrible condition of humans on the planet. From lost jobs, lost lives, warring countries, to lost youth, poor health, poverty, missed opportunities, death, etc. There is plenty of human suffering worthy of getting sad or depressed about.
Learning to put on the blinders to reality and look past all the darkness in life, to find the light of the good things in life - I believe that is a learned behavior.
The western view of medicine - 'pop a pill and get all better.' Well, perhaps that doesn't leave room for human spiritual growth and emotional development. Life is a life long process...
Perhaps these researchers were looking at the wrong mice, why are the dominate mice so damn aggressive?
That is, of course, seeing it from the humans point of view.
Slashdot readers know that the mice were actually studying the humans reactions...
6 feet 220 lb and small for your unit? At least if you are gonna lie make it believable. Elite units like marine recon and special forces units like the navy seals are not about being a big guy. You need serious cardio, mental toughness, etc. for those type of roles in the military, not bigness.
The biggest concern is that we NEED socially withdrawn people in a society, it's often withdrawl that leads to creativity, be it artistic, scientific, or even social. We shouldn't be too quick to try to "cure" them, since social withdrawl is part of their personality.
Well said.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
I should point out that for sufficiently violent values of "fighting back" it *does* solve the problem of bullies. I'll recommend a Serbu Super Shorty and Remington Buckhammers... and a Breachersgrip if you love your metacarpals. (Note that this requires both a concealed weapon permit and a separate permit for owning the NFA weapon!)
Why? Beating the shit out of someone is considered a "forcible felony" and can result in permanent injury or death. It's not my place to decide that somebody should die for such a thing, but it's not my place to die for such a thing either.
Those are things like not reaching milestones such as talking at a certain age, crawling, walking, etc. If your kids have such delays no wonder they are not socializing well. Maybe you should make sure they can walk and verbalize at least gibberish before attending pre-school.
When all you have to describe someone's personality is the word, "strength" and the various newspeak incantations of it, everything looks like varying degrees of strength. Walking away from an agressor has nothing to do with strength. The word you're looking for is "wisdom." It is never "strength" to walk away, but sometimes it is wise.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
I truly think that there is a place for bullys in this society.
- Bullys are required to change my oil, fill my car with petrol and clean my windows.
- Bullys are needed to sweep floors, photocopy documents and make me coffee at break times.
- Bullys are required to resurface roads and paint lines.
think of it - where would the medical industry/nerdy doctors be without bullys infighting, jumping off roofs, and falling off trail-bikes. Where would the Jerry Springer show be without the KKK I ask you!!! I NEED all theese people to laugh at throughout my day/life.
Indeed i was bullied HEAPS at primary and high school. But as soon as i started to leg-press more than most of the people around me - they 'suddenly' found more interesting things to do.
Now between my Muai Thai/MMA training and running/cycling I look back at those idiots and wonder where theyre buried. Then return to my research lab at uni to return to writing papers.
Here on Slashdot, both the bullying and the representation of social status are done with mod points. ;)
This is not the WWE or heavyweight boxing. Why do you not download some the public video of Greek underwater demolition unites and see how they are not all big pro football players. Or better yet go to a forum where actual Navy Seals post and post your fantastic story of 220+ lb. sized navy Seals or how at 6 feet and 220lb you were only a mid sized marine in fictional raider unit. And be sure to post a link if you are dumb enough to start such a thread at that foru, so I can enjoy your chewing out.
That doesn't sound like social withdrawal to me. You do know what it means, right? It doesn't mean moving or hiding from other people in a time of war or great moral corruption. It means not hanging out with your friends as much, being alone more oftern in an otherwise normal and healthy society.
One of the defining characteristics of a psychopath is a muted fear response to many situations. Is it possible that, without some instinctive fear response created by negative social situations throughout a lifetime, a psychopath is much more outgoing than most in the same way that these mice who can't remember past social stigmas are?
Can anyone who knows more about the area respond?
So make them think that any random guy on the street might beat them up if provoked, and the problem is solved.
See ? You are making excuses for bullies. If anyone who is being bullied reads that, what do you think they see ? Another proof that they cannot expect aid from anyone besides themselves, since everyone else is too busy pitying the poor bullies who just can't help being the unfortunate victims of circumstances. And since they can't expect help from others, they can only either become strong enough to beat up the bullies, though enough to whitstand the abuse, or, if they are unable to do neither, die.
Bullying happens because there is evil in everyone, and it is fun to indulge in it. It is fun to torment other human beings, so if you can get away with it the first time you do it, you'll do it again. That's how simple it is. No broken homes, no low self-esteem, no other bullshit like that. They may be contributing factors, but that's all they are. A bully is not a victim. He is evil.
The underlaying problem is that they enjoy causing others pain and distress, and know that they can get away with it. Beating them up would have changed the latter perception and therefore solved the problem.
Even if that was true, what does it has to do with anything ? Are we supposed to feel pity for evil people because they'll get ostracized from societies that won't tolerate their evil ?
And it isn't true. A bully will do just fine; smarter ones will be recruited by patent troll firms and the RIAA/MPAA, and the "muscular thug" types by mafia.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Nah, not true. It takes a lot if you know you can easily beat the crap of the person who deserves it, but you force yourself to walk away, nevertheless. That is both strength and wisdom. It often takes a lot of strength to overcome yourself and circumstances and do what is wise.
I was bullied at school, after school i joined the army to pay my way through University. Since the then i've occasionaly ran into one or two bullies from when i was at school. There's something about being a trained killer that unnerves bullies (queue maniacal laughter) :)
everyone has heard of 'of mice and men', everyone has heard of john steinbeck, you aren't telling us anything new, you aren't saying anything funny, what is the point of your post?
See John Taylor Gatto:h tmt m
"The Underground History of American Education: A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation
Into The Problem Of Modern Schooling"
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.h
For example:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/2e.htm
"I have little doubt the fantastic wealth of American big business is psychologically and procedurally grounded in our form of schooling. The training field for these grotesque human qualities is the classroom. Schools train individuals to respond as a mass. Boys and girls are drilled in being bored, frightened, envious, emotionally needy, generally incomplete. A successful mass production economy requires such a clientele. A small business, small farm economy like that of the Amish requires individual competence, thoughtfulness, compassion, and universal participation; our own requires a managed mass of leveled, spiritless, anxious, familyless, friendless, godless, and obedient people who believe the difference between Cheers and Seinfeld is a subject worth arguing about."
The biggest problem with compulsary "public" education is that unlike "public" libraries, you can't (easily) escape by just walking out the door. (Well, you could for a day or two and then the police machinery related to truancy will start grinding on you, unless it is appeased in other ways.) Most "private" education is little better in the compulsary aspects or preventing bullying.
While this may seem paradoxical, as you continue your quest for spritiual growth, consider the idea that the bullies you faced are in some sense just as much victims of those systems as you were.
A good resource:
http://www.bullyonline.org/
http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/index.htm
http://www.bullyonline.org/schoolbully/myths.htm
Example from the myths page: "Children have it drummed into them from the moment they are born that they must not hit, punch, kick, bite, scratch, pull, push, poke or use any form of physical violence. Children are often punished - sometimes brutally and humiliatingly - for exhibiting any form of violent behaviour. Some adults then criticise children for not using violence when faced with a thug. Child targets of bullying also know (better than adults) that if they retaliate physically, the bully will feign victimhood (often with a convincing flood of tears) and the responsible adults will be fooled into believing that the target is the bully and the bully is the target. The (real) target is then punished by the adults whilst the bully looks on, enjoying every moment. Once the adults turn their backs, the bully starts on their target again. Targets are also people with high moral integrity, a well-developed sense of moral values, and a clear understanding of the need to resolve conflict with dialogue. This is how we teach children to behave and how society demands that children behave. We should therefore not be surprised when targets of bullying display their maturity by going to great lengths to resolve the violent acts committed towards them with dialogue rather than with fists or feet. Trying to resolving conflict with dialogue is a hallmark of integrity and strength of character. Bullying is a hallmark of lack of integrity and weakness of character."
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
'Yes, namely you. Which is why must change: otherwise, you'll keep getting bullied.'
Yes and there are ways and means of doing that without resorting to exactly what the bully is doing.
'Fighting back (succesfully) solves the problem of getting bullied.'
No it just shifts the problem around a bit so you are now the bully.
'Doing it in a brutal enough fashion might also discourage the bullies from picking a new target out of fear of getting the crap beaten out of them again,'
Youve just switched places. Youd be here encouraging the now bullied bully to fight back. Gee escalation of the problem that helps...
'neutralizing that particular source of evil permanently.'
Source of evil... oh the melodrama.
'Getting beaten up daily is a pretty inconvertible proof that you're less than whoever is beating you up'
So basically if you can beat someone up your better than them?
Sure if this was a society of neanderthals hitting each other with sticks. Being strong is not an indication of worth I would have thought youd notice that while typing comments on one of the most famous geek sites ever.
'any claim that the ability to win a fight doesn't make you a bigger man than others directly contradicts observed reality and will thus be rejected as bullshit.'
Trying to shoot down a logical argument before its been made doesnt make it any less of an argument. I tell you what when next going in to work try beating up your manager. See if that gets you a promotion. Id laugh my arse off if I could observe that reality.
'After all, it might be illegal for others to beat you up, but that won't stop them; beating them up, however, does.'
Illegal for someone to beat another person up means exactly what it says they are breaking the law doing it, you are breaking the law doing it back and contrary to mathematics two wrongs do not make a right. Ive been in more trouble for getting my own back than any bully who started on me and no the problem did not go away.
Bullies arnt some inhuman issue to be solved with violence, they often arnt even that bad people. Hell some of my friends used to be bullies, one of my friends used to be a bully to me. Nearly every time bullying is happening there is history and reasons behind it, typically caused by the bully being bullied. Which unless im mistaken is exactly what your proposing in your post.
Perhaps ive read it wrong and your just violent for the fun of it, but you sound like someone who got beat down one too many times and is now angry and bitter about the whole thing.
I've often though about killing/harming/maiming the bullies that abused me so much as a child and teenager. I hate my dad so much that I havent spoken to him in 6 years and if I ever see him in public, I will probably goto jail for killing him out of sheer rage (I am not a violent person, quite the opposite, I wouldn't even kill an insect). I often fantasize about beating my dad to a pulp with a baseball bat or other weapon of choice.
I was abused as a child and bullied to the point where I tried to kill myself when I was 13 (10 years ago). After I tried to kill myself I was put on anti-depressants, I've never been the same since. I started to smoke pot and cigarettes, eventually trying harder drugs like cocaine, acid, esctacy, etc.. I haven't been to work or school in 5 years because I am too sick mentally and physically. I'm basically fucked beyond repair because of the torment I received as a young child all the way through high school. I really didnt have a safe place to go as a child, I was abused at home, I would goto school, I would be bullied there too.
When I get nervous, I vomit, thanks to the abuse I received from my father starting at the age of 5 and going until I was 13 or 14. My parents divorced because my father abused me, but he still had visitation rights for a weekend once a month and he would beat me when I went to see him. I became scared shitless of my father and I would be throwing up before he came to pick me up. I suffer from emetophobia (fear of vomitting). From wiki: "Nearly every emetophobic contracted their phobia as a result of a traumatic incident of vomiting that happened to them between the ages of six and ten."
When eating a meal at my dads place, I was so afraid of vomitting, cause I knew if I did vomit, he would beat me. I would pretty much always vomit and he would beat me, it was a self fulfilling prophecy. I would try so hard to prevent myself from vomitting, that I actually would vomit. I've probably vomitted over 1000 times in my short life.
Originally I was just on Paxil, now i'm on 3 different anti-depressants (Paxil, Wellbutrin & Seroquel). I'm heavily medicated, yet i'm still depressed and suicidal. I live in Canada and I definately don't feel that the Mental Health Care system has helped me at all. Whenever I tell them the anti-depressants arent working, they just perscribe me with another type, i've probably tried every single anti-depressant at some point in my life, yet they still don't work for me. The psycologists solution? up the dosage. I've been crying for help for 10 years and all they can do to help is drug me up? thanks but no thanks. I actually fantasize about getting cancer or some serious disease which would kill me, how sick is that? I weighed 140 pounds when I was in grade 9 (I was short, but very athletic), I now weigh 130 pounds 10 years later. I'm slowly withering away...
So ya, bullying can have some pretty serious side effects.
"Whilst accidents and assaults injure and kill people quickly and spectacularly, bullying and consequent prolonged negative stress injure and kill people slowly and secretively. The outcome, though, is the same."
-Tim Field
So the most gregarious people are the ones incapable of social learning? That's really a strange maxim when you think about it. But I suppose it could explain the loud, back-slapping thick-skinned blowhards who are as likely to offend everyone as they are to be the life of the party.
Obviousy, more research is necessary to determine the mechanism by which a bottle of vodka releases the capability in genetically sensitive subjects.
Did you even get an internet degree to be qualified for this position? The man clearly said his family is heavily introverted and he seems to want them to grow up nerds. And it is better to have a nerdy four year old with poor social skills than good social aptitude. You, that teacher, everyone else is wrong and only he is right. You are not the father, cannot you understand? Father knows best.
Interesting comments, but it still remains to be answered as to why "they enjoy inflicting pain"? Empathy is not something that we are born with, it is something that we seem to learn from our environments, particurarly at a young age.
Even the experiments with young monkeys, seem to indicate a soft nurturing environment is prefered, even it provides no food, than to an environment that provides food but has none of the soft nurturing.
Where I think the error is, that we believe that by telling children to treat other children the way that they would like to be treated, that this will instill the desired behaviours. When in fact they treat others in the same way that they HAVE BEEN treated, because they really have no idea how they would like to be treated, if they have never experienced it. So is the behaviour because of the way that they are, or the way that they have been conditioned?
This is not making excuses, because excuses never solve anything. But the first step in trying to solve a problem, is the correct understanding of what causes it. I am not saying that this is the correct understanding, but I don't think that the "eye for an eye" approach is going to solve the issue either.
Please enlighten me. If someone is repeatedly attacking me and beating me up for his own fun, and moving away isn't an option, how will I make it stop without physically defeating him ?
Fighting back doesn't make the victim the bully. I'm not suggesting that he go and beat up the bullies; I'm suggesting that he beat them up when they next attack him. Self-defense doesn't make anyone a bully, attacking innocent people does.
As I said, beating up someone who began the fight by attacking you does not make you a bully. Attacking him as revenge might, but simply beating him up rather than letting him beat you up does not.
Bully bullies others because he enjoys their torment and pain. Word "evil" sums that up nicely; and, since people who have been bullied sometimes go and take their anger out on other, innocent, people, or causes them grief through the psychological damage done to them, the original bully has acted as a source of behavior best descriped as "evil".
Please explain what is melodramatic about this ?
It makes you stronger and therefore means that they are not a threat to you.
It is. If it was not, the bully would be carted to prison or psychiatric ward the first time he tried bullying others, and we wouldn't be having this conversation since bullying wouldn't exist. Since it does, and we are, it is rather difficult for me to see how this society is any different from that neanderthal one, since obviously beating others up with sticks is accepted in this society, since it doesn't get the bully punished.
I haven't claimed that it is. I have claimed that being "worthy" by some standard doesn't stop you from being bullied, while being strong does. Therefore, the question of worth is simply completely irrelevant to the discussion about bullying.
My manager isn't regularly attacking me with the intent of causing me physical harm and pain. Having your argument relay on a ridiculous strawman does make it "less of an argument". And if I I answered a potential question before it was asked, is that something to complain about ?
Actually, all legal codes that I know of specifically state that you are allowed to protect yourself, someone else, and yours or their property against a violent assault. Therefore, self-defense is not illegal. And even if it was, that law must be one of those silently ignored - after all, the bully isn't being punished by it, otherwise the whole problem of bullying would go away.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
That's a silly thing to say. To live through the way of the iron fist is fine, but it's certainly not the only way to live. This life is too grandiose, and this world is too vast for every battle with every insignificant antagonist to be significant.
One can live by the way of ease by choosing the conflicts which will actually lead to your goals being fulfilled, rather than fighting in every conflict which presents itself. Those who fight first and seek victory second will never win, but those who seek victory first then fight to conquer an enemy already defeated will always be victorious.
It's been a long time.
Why is it that every woman needs to broadcast the fact of what they are?
Get back in line. You're no different from the rest of us.
It's been a long time.
Wake up overlord. You owe more to luck than you are willing to believe.
Do you think that I've never been in a scuffle as a kid? Do you think that I've never lost a fight?
I didn't consistently get picked on because I busted people up when they tried. I wasn't an easy target. Take for instance the time older kids tried to kick my friends and I off the baseball field while we were playing. He thought he could push me around, but I had a baseball bat. I'm sure you can guess what happened next.
Now if you were a pussy and handed the bat over, you'd be the one at a disadvantage. Sometimes you have to be a man and take matters into your own hands.
Sure, I'm going to hear how you'll get put in jail for fighting and all this other nonsense. Bullshit. If someone picks on you and you jack them up, you won't get in trouble, especially when you're 12. Of course if you didn't have the balls to defend yourself in any other situation, you wouldn't have the balls to hit someone with a bat. I had friends who thought they were above hitting someone with a baseball bat, or a tennis racket, or a fishing pole, but then again they were the ones who were easy to pick on and got harassed their whole life and couldn't see why. They were a pushover, and a bully can see that from a mile away. Some of those pushovers were bigger than I was, but they'd never hit someone back while I would.
Not being a pushover is the key, and that's not about luck. Are you the type who will do what it takes to win, or are you the type who wilts over like a pansy?
'Please enlighten me.'
Most bullying is commited in school. Teachers and parents can easily sort this problem out and in the worst cases the police can be called in. Now perhaps that doesnt happen every time but thats not a reason to resort to violence, its a reason to sort out the people who should be dealing with these cases and arnt. Just about every bullying situation ive come across has been sorted out within days of the kid actually telling there parents or some other adult whats going on.
If your talking about bullying of older people or on the streets. Thats not really bullying at all thats full on good old fashioned assault. I think youll find the police deal with that quite nicely. (Having actually been there when one of my friends was beat in the face good and hard then being through the whole process of punishment it wasnt difficult and my friend got compensation while the bully got community service. As far as I am aware the guy hasnt punched anyone since.)
'Doing it in a brutal enough fashion' and 'learn some particularly nasty fighting techniques' doesnt really sound like self defence to me. Sounds more like vengance and the belief that two wrongs make a right. They dont, they just perpetuate the problem.
'Bully bullies others because he enjoys their torment and pain.'
If only it were as simple as that.
'since people who have been bullied sometimes go and take their anger out on other, innocent, people,'
Well heck you appear to have realised it isnt in your very next sentance. Are you saying that those who have been bullied and become bullies are evil? A little harsh. Yet thats where most bullies come from. Perhaps your trying to say that its some kind of line that once you cross bang your evil. That would be a horribly simplistic and daft view of the situation though.
'It is. If it was not, the bully would be carted to prison or psychiatric ward the first time he tried bullying others'
The speed at which someone gets thrown in to jail isnt a sign of an advanced society. Probably quite the opposite. The speed at which bullying is eliminated before it has happened on the other hand is, and dont try claim that throwing bullies in prison will somehow stop it from going on. It clearly hasnt worked like that for any other crime.
'My manager isn't regularly attacking me with the intent of causing me physical harm and pain. Having your argument relay on a ridiculous strawman does make it "less of an argument".'
For it to be a strawman the situation I concocted would have had to have been an exagerated or false take on your argument. Saying 'any claim that the ability to win a fight doesn't make you a bigger man than others directly contradicts observed reality' backs up my situation perfectly. Reality is not about beating people up, beating people up does not make you a bigger man. Your sentance was full of crap, my question was perfectly valid.
'Therefore, self-defense is not illegal.'
No it is not but then see 'Doing it in a brutal enough fashion' and 'learn some particularly nasty fighting techniques' points I made. If that was meant to imply self defence rather than out and out violence then you need to word your sentances much more carefully.
'after all, the bully isn't being punished by it, otherwise the whole problem of bullying would go away.'
In the majority of cases when someone being bullied speaks up the bully doesnt get away with it. If more people spoke up more of the bullying problem will go away. If that doesnt work its a problem with the system not with how much martial arts the person being bullied knows.
'Are you talking about self-defense or going after them later ?'
Going after them later actually. Long story about what you can do with a pencil and a scalpel blade. Ive already been over why I misunderstood the difference between them in your post though.
'Yes, they are. A bully bullies because he enjoys causing others pain. That is inhuman. It is also psychotic, and a psychopath only listens to force
Tell that to a gazelle being pursued by a lion. When the chase has ended and it's fight-or-die for the gazelle are you saying the gazelle would be better off rolling in some fresh mint leaves and offering itself up to the lion, that way not cheating itself into becoming like the lion? That's crazy talk. Have you heard of survival of the fittest? It may be nice to think that there would be no bullies in our advanced society and any one that pops up would be swiftly dealt with by the law enforcers, but that's just not reality. It could perhaps be closer to reality if you approve of a totalitarian regime, but then you've just swapped a low level bully for a higher one.
I love your defeatist attitude. You sound exactly like the D&D playing losers who always used to get beat up and couldn't figure out why. They'd find themselves in a situation that they couldn't get out of, and they thought that anyone would do the same thing in that situation. What they failed to realise is that they put themselves in that situation in the first place, and since they completely lacked foresight and control they only realised their predicament when it was too late.
People find themselves in similar situations all throughout life for a reason- they put themselves there. You are trying to remove your personal responsibility which is really stupid, since nobody has to deal with the consequences but you. In short, either find a way out of the hole or live with being stuck in the hole.
I don't even know you, and even I'm ready to kick your ass. You sure to bring it on yourself, geek. It's your personality which makes you the target of other people's ass-whippings. It's not due to anything else- you're an annoying bitch which makes people want to batter you.
See you on the playground, geek.