Korea Plans to Choose Linux City, University

thefirelane wrote to mention an ambitious plan in the works by the South Korean government. Work is underway to choose a city, which will become a place where open-source software will become the mainstream operating system. From the article: "The selected government and university will be required to install open-source software as a main operating infrastructure, for which the MIC will support with funds and technologies. In the long run, they will have to migrate most of their desktop and notebook computers away from the Windows program of Microsoft, the world's biggest maker of software. 'The test beds will prompt other cities and universities to follow suit through the showcasing of Linux as the major operating system without any technical glitches and security issues,' Lee said. "

Comments

In Corea...

[Uber Banker]

...only old people use Windows.

Re:In Corea...

[70Bang]

And your affiliation with DreamHost is ?????????

Re:In Corea...

[trailerparkcassanova]

only old people can spell 'Korea'.

Re:In Corea...

[myskim]

Actually, a lot of countries outside of the US spell 'Korea' with a C.

Re:In Corea...

[Anonymous Coward]

good that means even less people taking up .net jobs.

Re:In Corea...

[Daengbo]

Actually, in Korea, everybody uses Windows. The article claims that the desktop penetration is 1%, as opposed to the 3% globally. I, myself, have never met anyone who uses it besides myself, and people whom I mention it to give me confused looks. Hangul Office puts out a version of Linux (I think they just merged with Asianux), but it's given away for free in computer stores and still gathers dust.

Great timing for the article: I'll start looking for a new job here the end of next month, and will certainly put in a resume at the university chosen by ROK.

Re:In Corea...

[Uber Banker]

And your affiliation with DreamHost is ?????????

Nothing other than they're a great webhost at a great price. Check out DreamHost's reviews.

They're not the best that money can buy in terms of uptime or probably anything, but I do get pretty good uptime, support, SSL, unlimited domains hosted (inc. ftp/shell), user groups, Python Perl Ruby and PHP (inc. PHP as CGI) scripting, MySQL (wish they has Postgres), 20GB storage, 1TB monthly bandwidth, webmail for a shed load of users, SSL server, thi list goes on.

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Re:In Corea...

[Ekarderif]

That's because everybody is also play Starcraft.

Re:In Corea...

[Daengbo]

Yes, or Maple Story or Lineage. True, that. Gaming is more than a hobby here.

Re:In Corea...

[Mistshadow2k4]

Hmmm..... isn't Korea an Anglicization of Koryo to begin with? I remember reading that Korea was derived from Koryo and that during the Korean War most Koreans considered Koryo to be the proper name for their country, merely accepting the name Korea from Westerners.

Re:In Corea...

[drewness]

From the Wikipedia article on Korea:

"Korea" derives from the Goryeo period of Korean history, which in turn referred to the ancient kingdom of Goguryeo. In the Korean language, Korea as a whole is referred to as Choson by North Korea and Hanguk ("Han Nation") by South Korea.

Food, supplies

[70Bang]

Maybe now, the North Koreans will have a byte [sic] to eat.

Re:Food, supplies

[Cheapy]

That may be true...

But will it run starcraft?

I want to go to LCU

[Anonymous Coward]

Will they have a football team? If so where will they get the cheerleaders?

Universities and schools

[pubjames]

Personally I don't understand why universities and schools all over the world aren't switching all their desktops to Linux. How many billions of taxpayers money is being spent on Microsoft software that could be better spent elsewhere?

Re:Universities and schools

[joe 155]

...about $7.2 billion
*Source: random-figures-I-pulled-out-of-my-head.com

Re:Universities and schools

[Arimus]

But as most PC's are only supplied bundled with Windows and MS's VLK schemes for universities etc aren't as expensive as some make out then I'd imagine not alot.

Now if you can get rid of the MS Tax on new PC's then the balance would be restored.

Re:Universities and schools

[ELProphet]

Billions of dollars that would become trillions if you switch to Linux. Why? Training. People "Know" (at least they think they do) how to use Windows, because they learned computers with Windows. All the money (~$100, educators license) for XP would be offset by probably 10-20 hours training and plenty of time wasted "Learning" this new OS, as opposed to just working (albeit at every user's own level) on whatever project is at hand.

Microsoft's monopoly with Windows comes from the fact that the general populace believes whether true or not, that it is the easier operating system, and don't want to take the time or the effort to learn or deal with somehting else. Suddenly, that $100 educator's license isn't looking like so much.

Re:Universities and schools

[flacco]

Personally I don't understand why universities and schools all over the world aren't switching all their desktops to Linux.

because they get enormous discounts to keep them on windows. at our university, microsoft charges us about 10% of list price. a year or two ago, every employee at our university was given free upgrade to the latest version of windows (i believe that was not only for their university systems but their home systems as well).

microsoft knows that universities with a computer science or engineering school could go linux if they wanted to, so they accept huge cuts to make the cost of software a non-argument.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

A state should make discounts for computers being sold to schools that include Linux.

Re:Universities and schools

[Bert64]

But training is the purpose of a university...
Surely you want people at university to be trained and to learn new skills, it worked fine a few years ago when university systems were all unix or dos based. I know lots of people who read their mail using pine at university, it may not have looked very pretty but it worked very well and was problem free.

Re:Universities and schools

[elrous0]

I don't understand why universities and schools all over the world aren't switching all their desktops to Linux

I used to work IT in research center at a major university here in the U.S. and I can tell you many reasons why *I* stuck with Windows. First and foremost is the practical matter of professors coming to you saying "I need this particular piece of software installed on my computer." Telling them "Sorry, there is no Linux version of that available" simply was NOT an option, and would likely have gotten me pink-slipped pretty damn fast.

Hell, we used to upgrade professors to new computers just to run a *single* piece of software they wanted (often software that wasn't even related to their work). They weren't particularly interested in the why-and-why-nots of why they couldn't get something that they wanted, only that they couldn't get it. Many of the profs I worked with had the emotional mentality of 3-year-olds wanting a piece of candy.

-Eric

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

The purpose of a univeristy is to prepare the student for the arms of the real-world. If you can *honestly* say that a majority of real-world applications will have a student plopped behind a Linux terminal, than by all means make the switch. Now then, with that said, what better way to drive MS out of the corporate world, but by having the universities switch to the OpenSource world? It all boils down to one thing in the end: MONEY.

Re:Universities and schools

[fl!ptop]

i sent my first email in 1990 at college using pine, and i still use it to this day. imho, pine is the best email client available.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

Well... maybe it's because nobody uses Linux, and when I send my kids to college I don't want them wasting time with an operating system that only a few geeks even know about.

Re:Universities and schools

[stunt_penguin]

Because out in the *real* world of work and the office, microsoft unfortunately rules the roost. You can't just create a little linux based utopian world inside schools and release people into the big bad world of M$ software. I can't imagine employers taking somone very seriously if they'd never used Microsoft Office plus outlook, never used windows explorer, set up a windows network, used a windows based printer driver, never used Sage- and those are basic office functions without any specialisation, such as Autocad & Archicad for architecture and manufacturing, plus Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Illustrator, Premiere, Director and Flash for multimedia production....

Linux is ok for openoffice, internet, mail and programming, but if you actually want to *do* something with the computer that isn't programming there's no wealth of professional grade software out there for professionals who are reliant on computer technology.

The only real-world usable alternative to the scourge of M$ might be OSX and its Apple-made successors. It's easy to use, has a large library of *real* software written for it and doesn't cost the earth.

Re:Universities and schools

[hal2814]

As others have pointed out, Microsoft seriously discounts their products to universities. At my Alma Mater (and workplace for a while), individual departments paid nothing for Windows licenses. The only restrictions they had were that you had to go to a training class provided by Microsoft before you were allowed to copy the media the University provided. If the University is paying a lump sum anyways, the departments have little reason to worry about it. It's not coming out of their departmental budget. We had a similar deal with Novell.

And for what it's worth, our Computer Science lab workstations were mostly Sun, a few Linux boxes, and a very few Windows boxes (MAYBE 10 out of 150 computers). And I'd say that at least 80% of the research computers were running Linux, Irix, or Solaris.

Also, the general purpose computer labs tended to be 60% Windows and 40% MAC. A lot of us got very used to using the MAC since you could usually walk up and get a MAC right away instead of waiting for a Windows box. I wonder if Linux boxes would be treated the same way as the MAC boxes.

Re:Universities and schools

[level_headed_midwest]

A lot don't spend much money on software licenses. The district I went to school in used (and is *still* using) Windows 98 on its machines. They paid for the license once and are using it until the AMD Duron 700 computers it runs on die. Most of those computers don't have MS Office or anything like that on them. Some have Word 6 on them, but most are just the W98 OS, a Web browser, and some specific apps (a reading-level test, library card-catalog search function, etc.) that the school really uses the computers for in the first place.

My university used W2K Pro until MS announced that it was moving into extended support phase (last year), upon which they moved to XP. I bet they stay with XP until 2011, when XP Pro gets its mainstream support dropped my MSFT. The Windows OSes have not changed that much since about W2K, so lots of businesses have CFOs that don't buy the Fisher-Price GUI as an improvement and thus hang onto older OSes until they no longer get patched.

Re:Universities and schools

[nursegirl]

I think Korea is looking at this as more significant than just a "we can save money on MS licenses" project. From TFA:

``In order to become a genuine software powerhouse, Korea has no choice but to secure source technologies. We cannot achieve the goal under the command of dominant closed-source programs,'' said Ko Hyun-jin, president at the state-backed agency.

They are hoping to get more people using, developing, perhaps even vending OSS programs. Exciting potential partnerships for OSS developers in the rest of the world.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, training costs are clearly linear.

I'd just love to see the math where you show that the cost of training people to use a different Operating System is "trillions". I bet you a bajillion zillion[1] dollars you're wrong.

[1]: Numbers may be made up. Just like yours.

Re:Universities and schools

[level_headed_midwest]

My university (University of Missouri- Columbia) has over 1000 computers over 50 labs. I'd say that about 75-80% of those are Dells and Gateways running only XP Pro. Most of the rest are 15" "lampshade" iMac G4s, with about 50 Dells running XP and RHEL 3 in dual-boot and 20 Dells running only RHEL 3. There are a handful of PowerMac G5s and iMac G5s in the newer labs.

There are two labs that I use quite a bit on campus. One has about 40 computers in it, 30 are XP machines and the other 10 are the G4 iMacs. The XP boxes are usually all filled, and the people who come in look for one of those first. If the Dells are all being used, then one or two that come in will use a Mac. Most just swear under their breath and go to another lab. The other has 30 machines that dual-boot between RHEL 3 and XP. I have only seen one other person boot Linux on those machines, and that was to use a program (Sybyl) that only ran on UNIX. When I was using RHEL in that lab, some guy next to me whispered, "dude, you know you can get rid of that Linux crap by restarting and selecting 'Windows.'"

So I'd say that people stick with what is familiar to them, and that is overwhelmingly Windows.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

The get enormous discounts, plus development support for their IT dept's, CS and Engineering programs. The vendor gets exclusivity against competing platforms.

At my college, they signed a deal with Apple. As a result, PC's became contraband - either you had to apply for and get an exception (very hard and not often given) or just not tell anybody you were using one.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I know why U.S. citizens consider Denmark the capitol of Sweden.

Re:Universities and schools

[ajs318]

That's right, training will be enormously expensive. GNU/Linux PCs have a totally different keyboard layout to Windows ones. When you want the cursor on a GNU/Linux PC to move up, you have to move the mouse sideways. In OpenOffice Writer, when you want to make text bold you have to select "underline" and if you want to underline text, you have to select "right align". In OpenOffice Calc, you can't use the numeric keypad; you have to spell out all your numbers in words, like "seven hundred and sixty four thousand, one hundred and fourteen".

Oh, wait a minute, that's bollocks. The keys are in the same place, the mouse moves in the same directions, the options all have similar names and things generally work fairly similar. Anyone who learns like an adult and sees the abstract concepts behind actions, rather than learning like a child and blindly parrotting actions, will have little trouble adjusting.

The one big thing that catches people out is that rebooting a GNU/Linux PC almost never cures it of a fault, because GNU/Linux applications don't very often go unstable for no reason; so if anything is wrong, it is likely to be deliberate {as far as the computer is concerned} and if you didn't actually change any settings, the problem will still be there next time around. That's what we call "repeatable behaviour".

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't imagine employers taking somone very seriously if they'd never used Microsoft Office plus outlook, never used windows explorer, set up a windows network, used a windows based printer driver, never used Sage- and those are basic office functions without any specialisation

... and which should take about a week to learn on the job, rather than three+ years of study at University.

Re:Universities and schools

[1u3hr]

Because out in the *real* world of work and the office, microsoft unfortunately rules the roost. You can't just create a little linux based utopian world inside schools

We're talking about universities, not evening schools. If you need to learn MS software, there are plenty of "For Dummies" books you can read over a weekend -- don't waste your probably one and only shot at higher education learning how to operate a black box that will be obsolete in two years.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason they don't switch is because Microsoft has a monopoly. They know what the students are going to go out into a world that is largely dominated my Microsoft, particularly MS Office. If you want to get a job as a secritary in an office, it's pretty immportant that you know how to use the different Office programs inside out. For some reason the schools have gotten it into their minds that it's their jobs to teach the kids this kind of thing.

I know at my school the main reason we still use windows is because the students need a "dynamic and relevant education". WTF? The job of a school is to teach children concepts and ways of thinking, not tools. The computer courses in our school are absolutely pitiful and useless if you want to me anything more than a mindless secritary. I've had arguements with several of the people at the school, but hey, what do I know, I'm only their sysadmin.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you know? How not to spell Secretary, obviously....

As for a dynamic and relevant education, you'll probably find that the hundreds of apps that your students use for learning are only written for the windows platform....

Re:Universities and schools

[spitek]

Indeed. This is not uncommon at all. I am aware of a huge Linux cluster installed at a research center at a major univeristy, NASA funded at times, spent about $1 Mil on hardware. In the end, one professor used it, and not all that often. It was sitting ideal with maybe 2% CPU unitilization for months and months while others where begging for time. The one professor, again, like a 3 year old with candy. What a terrible waste of resourses. Great motivator huh!

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

10% nothing, we get windows free. As well as a home copy for all students and faculty. But there's still very little development done in Windows after first year. Starting second year, all students must learn and use unix, since the assignments are tested there. Most of the upper-year labs are various flavours of linux - Debian for the graphics lab, Ubuntu for networks. Windows is used primarily for first years, and non-CS students.(I go to the University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada)

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies won't bother with your resume unless you spend your university career learning MS apps??? That's news to me. I guess not many people apply to MS for development jobs then, since MS hires more developers from my school than any other school in the world, and we do almost no development under windows. And I'm pretty sure that we'll never drop pine and start using outlook. If you're an administrative assistant, I can see that's it's more useful to learn Office than OpenOffice etc. but for developers it really doesn't matter. It's not like you learn the source for visual studio by using it.

Re:Universities and schools

[ELProphet]

My point was not that one is better than the other, my point is that the general public percieves that is so. Your last paragraph touched on the point: it is (for better or worse) relatively easy to change a setting in windows; just about anything the normal user wants to do has a nice wizard. On the other hand, in linux, it actively tells me "Only do this if you know what you are doing". This scares most users, because most users still view their computer as a magical box that does magical things, and knows everything in the world.

An example of this comes from my grandmother and Juno. She used to always wonder why her phone gave this wierd noise. I picked it up, and heard a modem tone. She used Juno, and whenever you try to close Juno, it asks "Are you sure you want to exit?" with a yes/no. Of course, my grandmother (no offnse, Amah) is never sure about anything, so she always clicked no. Thus, she never got logged off.

Whether one OS is better than another isn't an argument for us techies here who know everything already, its the normal Grandmas and mother-in-laws to decide, and they continually go with what they know; in this world, that is Windows.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

They are hoping to get more people using, developing, perhaps even vending OSS programs. Exciting potential partnerships for OSS developers in the rest of the world.

You don't know much about Korea, do you...

Re:Universities and schools

[stunt_penguin]

I'm talking about the real world of millions of offices who don't have computers as their main business and who need smart office workers who can use computers. The parent poster for my comment said that all schools and univerisites should move to linux for everything to save money, but if business, science and design students, plus the general highschool populace (who tend to learn very little about computers anyway) come out of the education system having only learned about linux, then they're going to walk into a brick wall when they start their first job and they're handed a sodding Windoze machine with all the afforementioned shitty M$ software on it. What one computer literate person learns in your weekend of a Foo for Dummies book, most people just about pick up in their entire computing lives.

Re:Universities and schools

[ajs318]

They know Windows if and only if they were brought up on Windows. The {admittedly few} people whom I have introduced to computing via Linux from the outset haven't had a problem with Linux. In fact, when they get onto Windows XP, they're often frustrated that there is only one desktop and the konsole has no apt-get.

Re:Universities and schools

[drinkypoo]

because they get enormous discounts to keep them on windows. at our university, microsoft charges us about 10% of list price. a year or two ago, every employee at our university was given free upgrade to the latest version of windows (i believe that was not only for their university systems but their home systems as well).

If list price is $500, and you get it at 10%, then it's still $50 more than linux.

The only thing keeping Microsoft going is momentum. That's it. They're not the best at anything except leveraging their monopoly through the use of anti-competitive business processes, and escaping being smacked down for it by the U.S. government, probably through some sort of not-explicitly-illegal funds transfer or something.

Schools in particular are not going to linux because educators are fucking lame. I am not making this up. These people can barely handle using Windows. If you change things so that certain items are in different menus, they will never ever find them. The really sad part is that pretty much every college specifies skills with Microsoft Office (For example) in the job description, yet they will hire people without any skills in this area whatsoever. But wait, it gets ten times better. These are schools we're talking about. They tend to have classes in this stuff. Do they require their staff to take the classes, and become educated? Fuck no.

When I've been in IT anywhere, I've always taken any chance to bring linux in as a server platform, pushing out NT at the slightest provocation. When I can, I support open standards, open source, and free software, because I think they're better for everyone (except billy G and the chair throwin' posse) and because I simply despise everything about Microsoft, especially their inability to produce a secure, reliable product.

But anyway, it has nothing to do with cost. If you could just get the users to buy into it you could eliminate the hours and hours of headaches from virii and worms, and you'd start saving money from the moment you converted the first machine (you'd start with whatever machines were stunk up with malware and having issues...)

Re:Universities and schools

[tomjen]

Did that also mean personal machines, or just those the universities owned?

Re:Universities and schools

[FireFury03]

because they get enormous discounts to keep them on windows. at our university, microsoft charges us about 10% of list price.

Actually, I believe MS hand out a number of their products as freebees to universities in order to get the students hooked (along with free or heavilly discounted software development tools).

ISTR that the Swansea University Computer Society (with it's quite well known connections to Linux) was offered freebee licences a few years ago on the condition that they ran Windows on _all_ their machines (naturally they declined).

Infact, the way MS conducts business has many similarities with the narcotics business - get them hooked young and then crank up the price.

Re:Universities and schools

[FireFury03]

We're talking about universities, not evening schools.

Actually, even (especially) in schools I think it would be massively beneficial to have Linux machines. I'm not advocating binning all the Windows machines. I've seen far too many people who have basically been trained how to use Windows like animals (i.e. "to start a word processor you click Start -> Programs -> Office -> Word") and can't accept a computer which is slightly different. Basically they haven't got any thinking skills.

When I was at university I saw a lot of people come into the computer society and just freak out and leave when they realised they weren't going to use a Windows machine - they only wanted to surf the web or use a word processor (which our Linux machines were very capable of doing) but refused to deal with the concept that it wasn't Windows, many of them wouldn't even log into the machines, let alone try to use the software they were after.

People need to be introduced to non-windows machines at a young age and shown that it _isn't_ scary - install a bunch of Macs and Linux boxes at the schools and have a curriculum that gets people using them as much as the Windows machines - they will then learn that different != bad and simple problem solving skills (i.e. if the machine has an icon that says "OpenOffice Writer" instead of "Microsoft Word" then use that to get to the word processor rather than just giving up). Teaching people to use their brains to figure out how to do stuff instead of just expecting everything to always be exactly the same is an important life skill and will also help them when migrating between different versions of the same software (which invariably move everything around)

Re:Universities and schools

[penrodyn]

It would be a sorry day if, in all places, we didn't have a choice in what OS we wanted to use at a University. I work at a non-religious computer choice insitute, we can use what ever we want to do the job. Being on the search committe for a new head of IT, one of the first criteria is that the person should not be any kind of zealot.

Money is not the issue here with regards buying the OS. Linux carries a maintenance cost just as Windows does. The cost of the OS itself is marginal and not the real issue. The real issue is choice so that the job can be done most effectively.

Re:Universities and schools

[Anonymous Coward]

"The really sad part is that pretty much every college specifies skills with Microsoft Office (For example) in the job description, yet they will hire people without any skills in this area whatsoever. But wait, it gets ten times better. These are schools we're talking about. They tend to have classes in this stuff. Do they require their staff to take the classes, and become educated? Fuck no."

As a Computer Engineering student, i've seen this first hand, and it is REALLY pathetic and aggravating on the students in the classroom. Back when i was a freshman in CS101, our "C++ professor" could hardly handle the most simplistic of syntax, let alone any 'complex' concepts. When I handed in my final (on CD because he 'didn't like using email attachments') He failed me saying someone else had written my program, quoting portions of my program which had not been covered in his class...when in fact i had simply had some previous C++ experience before his class.

Yep, way to go....America's education system sucks.

Re:Universities and schools

[Art Tatum]

These people can barely handle using Windows. If you change things so that certain items are in different menus, they will never ever find them.

Well, maybe it's because they have Alzheimers?

Re:Universities and schools

[korea]

Insightful?

Consider this; not all "Universities and Schools" teach primarily Computer Science. There are plenty of students that don't want to use an operating system that is completely foreign to them and very removed from what they use at home. I recall when the G5 Powermacs came out, I was angry because the biggest lab, the one for our literature science and art students (versus Engineers) had gotten first dibs at the powermacs. This stuck me as ludicrous because the students were using these fantastic video editing work horses to write e-mail, write reports, and browse the web between classes. Another point I would like to make is that Universities often get technology donations by companies like Apple and and Dell. At my school, the Dells on the engineering network dual boot to redhat. (strangely enough, there are some sun boxes that run windows as well) Billions of taxpayer money? Do you have a real number for that? And do you have some cost improvement number for a education wide transition to Linux inclusive of the cost of sysadmins (and the cost of only being able to afford novice students as sysadmins)? Do you even care about the end-user experience (in this case, students)? Somewhere in your head, perhaps sitting under the gluttonous weight of empty zealotry, must be the notion that switching completely to Linux at a University with varied programs is completely infeasible. How does that switch affect business students, film and video students, music students? Computers are utilities that have become very useful for nearly everyone in some way. Linux is not useful in those same ways. It would just be idiotic for a business student to go into a job interview and not be able to claim being proficient at Microsoft Office.

Re:Universities and schools

[mrchaotica]

Anyone who learns like an adult and sees the abstract concepts behind actions, rather than learning like a child and blindly parrotting actions

FYI, I think you've got that backwards. Kids, especially really young ones, are much more intuitive than adults (e.g. note how toddlers learn language vs. how a college student does so). Or, at least, for kids it's subconcious and automatic while for adults it takes concious effort.

Re:Universities and schools

[PeterBrett]

Linux is ok for openoffice, internet, mail and programming, but if you actually want to *do* something with the computer that isn't programming there's no wealth of professional grade software out there for professionals who are reliant on computer technology.

There's a lot of professional grade software out there for professionals that runs as well or better on Linux than on any other operating system:

• Pro Engineer
• Various Cadence microcircuit design toolkits (schematic capture, mask layout, simulation)
• Xilinx FPGA design & synthesis tools

I could carry this list on for a long time, and that's just in my field. I keep on having to repeat myself: for high-end engineering research and development, people are upgrading to Linux all the time.

Cambridge University Engineering Department use Linux workstations for all undergraduate tuition -- they're based on a custom Knoppix distribution. More information at the CUED website.

Professional software for professionals: lots of it for Linux. Maybe you mean "professional" software for amateurs?

Re:Universities and schools

[Blakey Rat]

you could eliminate the hours and hours of headaches from virii and worms

And add hours and hours of headaches from people who can't figure out what to do, glitchy software, or having to use a crappy clone of some Windows product that works better.

Re:Universities and schools

[NetFu]

Universities train you to understand concepts, not specific tools. That's why most people who hire (like me) put fresh graduates at the bottom of the resume pile. Those people who've just finished 4-8 years in the university don't know most if not all of the tools any company uses.

I ask one applicant recently, "Oh, you just graduated and you have Linux experience? Which distros?" He replies, "Oh, Redhat 6, but just from using it during class".

You think they train you to use Windows XP and to admin Exchange or Domino in typical universities??? Give me a break, that's what certifications are for...

Re:Universities and schools

[Thundersnatch]

Sounds exactly the same as my Alma Mater. Were you North Quad or South Quad, Mod Quad, or God Quad?

Re:Universities and schools

[NetFu]

I'm an employer.

If you've never used Linux, AIX, Lotus Domino, etc., you get books, On-the-Job-Training, and certification assistance. You don't get overlooked because you need a little training, that's just plain ridiculous. No employer works that way because if they did, they'd never be able to hire anyone.

So, if that's the case with those tools, why would it be any different with Windows, MS Office, etc.??? It's not.

We once had an Operations Manager who took 4 solid hours to learn how to look up a part in our ERP system (that was including taking notes), when it takes the average person 2-4 minutes to learn the same thing. Our current Operations Manager can't multiply two cells in Microsoft Excel. Do you think either of these guys will lose their job because of it??? NO.

Needless to say, if you can't pick up on-the-job-training, your career future is very, very dim.

You honestly sound like one of the guys who sends me resumes filled with every single little skill you have. Let me give you a clue -- we don't care, and we'll just gloss over that half-page list of skills. Why? Because every guy you hire that tells you he's used XYZ application or OS for *years* STILL needs On-the-Job-Training!!!

Re:Universities and schools

[Baloo Ursidae]

Thanks to Oregon speaker of the House Karen Minnis (R, Wood Village), Oregon is contributing $32 million/year to that in licenses to Microsoft alone. She fought in favor of Microsoft on that in shooting down the Open Source Bill.

BTW, I live in Wood Village, and I'm looking to see if anybody else in the area would be willing to vote for me, should I run against Karen Minnis this fall for her house seat to become the first socialist state rep in Oregon.

Re:Universities and schools

[hal2814]

Quads? No way. We're too confederate for that. We have North Campus and South Campus. North is for all the artsy-fartsy folks and business majors. South is the science and ag majors.

Re:Universities and schools

[Baloo Ursidae]

You can't just create a little linux based utopian world inside schools and release people into the big bad world of M$ software.

Schools aren't about what we're using today. Schools are about what we'll be using tomorrow. Your suggestion to indoctrinate another generation of IT professionals is harmful to the industry as a whole.

Re:Universities and schools

[coldhg]

Because there is Microsoft with its' MSDN academic program.
Because most of the studets never used Linux/*BSD until college/university.

No wonder the brazilian government said Microsoft had practices resembling that of a drug dealer.
And this is very true in not so developed countries.

You should also take in account that most of the university professors are not from Computer Science department, where should be hope, but from chemistry, physics, history, geography, etc.

Re:Universities and schools

[barkingcorndog]

Those weird Microsoft systems you use must be defective. There are no capital letters in your post. I suppose that explains the discount.

Re:Universities and schools

[killjoe]

So let me get this straight. Unless you installed every single program that any professor asks you will be fired?

Wow, please tell us the name of the university, I want to make I don't send my kids there.

Re:Universities and schools

[ClamIAm]

microsoft knows that universities with a computer science or engineering school could go linux if they wanted to,

While the CS department at my school is pretty small, we use neither Windows nor Linux in our lab. What we do use is OS X. Why? Because the professors aren't fucking idiots. They explicitly designed the curriculum to give students skills that will transfer to whatever operating system or environment they end up using.

Re:Universities and schools

[lifespan]

Personally I don't understand why universities and schools all over the world aren't switching all their desktops to Linux. How many billions of taxpayers money is being spent on Microsoft software that could be better spent elsewhere?

I think it's an unjustified fear of support expense and replacement costs for legacy applications that are holding lots of schools/unis back from adopting Linux.

Re:Universities and schools

[sentientbrendan]

microsoft isn't the best at anything? oh common, they didn't pull that monopoly out of their ass, they earned it. microsoft is king of the "good enough" solution that characterizes the american software market. software that has flaws, but does what the vast majority of people need it to do with a few kludges. additionally, they'ye always done a reasonable job of assuming technical incompetence on the part of the user (although apple has them slightly beat in this area).

microsoft software is ugly, but functional. the fact that *binaries* created for DOS in the *80's* still work on windows, but that I can't install software designed for a different *distribution* linux is a good example of how an ivory tower approach can fail so miserably.

oh, and if anyone makes some comment about DOSBox or virtualizing different distributions of linux as a solution to this problem, I will come to your house and punch you in the groin until you die.

Re:Universities and schools

[1u3hr]

I'm talking about the real world of millions of offices who don't have computers as their main business and who need smart office workers who can use computers.

And learning to use a Linux desktop would make them stupid office workers?

if business, science and design students, plus the general highschool populace (who tend to learn very little about computers anyway) come out of the education system having only learned about linux, then they're going to walk into a brick wall when they start their first job and they're handed a sodding Windoze machine

Well, if in some wonderful alternate reality students did learn Linux, or for that matter, anything except Windows; companies would of necessity give them a two-day course on how to click on "Start" instead of a footprint, and so on. Though if everyone was using Linux in school I'd expect that most businesses would too. That's the reason Apple and MS both almost give away their software to schools. Personally, in my late 40s, the only computer I used at high school was a HP calculator. My daughter is in primary school and the computer classes they have are, except perhaps for keyboarding skills, i.e. typing, pretty much a waste of time. I'd rather she was reading a book or playing sport.

Re:Universities and schools

[Tab is on Slashdot]

For the record, the entire Math department at my school (Temple University) is set up on Suse and there are a few computer labs around campus with RHEL boxes. All of the main computer labs are about 2/3 Windows 1/3 Mac.

Re:Universities and schools

[elrous0]

Unless you installed every single program that any professor asks you will be fired?

Well, unlike most IT departments, mine actually had to keep in mind that we were there to *serve*.

-Eric

Re:Universities and schools

[bob65]

Via the MSDN Academic Alliance, almost any university gives away free licensed copies of software such as Windows XP Pro, Visio, Visual Studio.NET or whatever, MS Virtual PC, MapQuest, UNIX Services for Windows, etc... to all its students.

It's grim up North

[Anonymous Coward]

North Korea tried something similar, but people kept stealing the punchcards to make soup.

UNIX used to be the norm

[TheRealDamion]

It's only the past few years that Windows has started to take over UNIX use in universities, certainly from my experience in the UK. Linux was used by many during this when it arrived over a decade ago, along with many who stuck with all the other UNIX flavours, I can't believe people who are new to this (7years experience with Linux) don't spot the same trends. Actions like this are far too little too late, the war was won a long time and ago and what's needed is a cleverly crafted resistance movement not pretending Linux is new and starting to make inroads.

Re:UNIX used to be the norm

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen the same thing at my university over the last 8 years, and I have to say a lot of responsibility lies with the admins. The technical services group here is so resistant to change that our *nix boxes still look exactly the way they looked in 1997, while our Windows boxes are reasonably up-to-date and understandably popular with the students as a result. We have a standard setup that runs across Linux, Irix and Solaris, which means lowest common denominator. I feel like an idiot explaining to students that their Java windows keep appearing halfway off the screen because the window manager's older than Java, or that they can't view HTML emails in the mail client, or that the installed version of Mozilla won't display Yahoo Mail correctly because it's four years out of date. The impression they come away with is that Unix is archaic, cobbled-together and useless for getting real work done. So to be honest, if they see Linux as some cool new thing that's entirely unrelated to the Unix systems they're used to, it's probably no bad thing.

Re:UNIX used to be the norm

[squoozer]

It's good to see Governments taking Linux seriously but it seems pretty clear to me why UNIX lost out in the first place: money. Windows was (and I would say still is) the better product and it's dirt cheap if you are installing thousands of copies and are an educational establishment. If open source / UNIX is to take back some of those installs it needs to become a lot simpler to use. I love my Debian box and wouldn't give it up for the world but I spend 10 times as long making it work than I do on my Windows install. In fact, I don't remember the last time I had to fix anything on my Windows install - it just works. I admit that if it (hardware mainly) doesn't work straight away under Windows it probably never will but the time I have spent trying to get poor supported hardware working under Linux... well lets just not go there.

Re:UNIX used to be the norm

[timeOday]

I disagree; things have changed. Linux did exist 10 years ago, but what about the applications? It's OpenOffice and Firefox that matter, not the kernel.

Re:UNIX used to be the norm

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows was (and I would say still is) the better product

Where do you get this "Windows" you talk about? I've heard about it before, but all I got is this piece of crap Microsoft Windows (95, NT4, 2000, XP).

Re:UNIX used to be the norm

[Stormwatch]

I feel like an idiot explaining to students [...] that they can't view HTML emails in the mail client

You can just tell them the truth: e-mails are MEANT TO BE pure text. Duh!

Re:UNIX used to be the norm

[dodobh]

And I have given up trying to keep Windows working on badly supported hardware. Linux works very well with supported hardware. "It just works" is the same argument that Mac OS users use, and I will use the same thing for my Linux box.

Re:UNIX used to be the norm

[ectospasm]

I would wager that you haven't tried any of the newer end-user-oriented distributions. You're a Debian user; you owe it to yourself to at least have a look at Ubuntu. I've had less problems with Ubuntu on my aging Thinkpad R32 than I had with Windows XP (the OS the laptop came with)! I'm not saying you'll fall in love and you'll stick with it, but just give it a shot. You may be surprised.

the most damaging illness known to man'kind'

[Anonymous Coward]

that would be the whoreabull afflictions caused by the greed/fear/ego based LIEfstyles of unprecedented evile's corepirate nazi monions, leaving many of US infactdead.

for many of US, the only way out is up.

don't forget, for each of the creators' innocents harmed (in any way) there is a debt that must/will be repaid by you/US as the perpetrators/minions of unprecedented evile will not be available after the big flash occurs.

'vote' with (what's left in) yOUR wallet. help bring an end to unprecedented evile's manifestation through yOUR owned felonious corepirate nazi life0cidal glowbull warmongering execrable.

some of US should consider ourselves very fortunate to be among those scheduled to survive after the big flash/implementation of the creators' wwwildly popular planet/population rescue initiative/mandate.

it's right in the manual, 'world without end', etc....

as we all ?know?, change is inevitable, & denying/ignoring gravity, logic, morality, etc..., is only possible, on a temporary basis.

concern about the course of events that will occur should the corepirate nazi life0cidal execrable fail to be intervened upon is in order.

'do not be dismayed' (also from the manual). however, it's ok/recommended, to not attempt to live under/accept, fauxking nazi felon greed/fear/ego based pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking hypenosys.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators. providing more than enough of everything for everyone (without any distracting/spiritdead personal gain motives), whilst badtolling unprecedented evile, using an unlimited supply of newclear power, since/until forever. see you there?

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

MIC=Ministry of Information and Communication(n/t)

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

Kudos to South Korea!

[Rob T Firefly]

That's quite a big step, and seeing it actually taken (by politicians of all people!) warms this old jaded heart. Assuming all goes well, this is going to serve as one hell of a shining example for the OSS community.

Now, cue the distro wars...

Re:Kudos to South Korea!

[fitten]

Likewise, if it is a failure, it will become strong ammunition. Still, it is usually better to try and then fail than to not try at all.

ROFL

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahahahahhahhhaahahahah, starvation is hilarious, good job :D

Re:ROFL

[mwvdlee]

Hm, using sarcasm to demonstrate a point.
Where have I seen this before?
Ah, yes; the original post!

Re:ROFL

[Anonymous Coward]

Go look up sacrasm, brainiac. (hint: calling you brainiac is sarcasm)

The original post was just using a stupid pun.

Is that the way to go about it?

[mytec]

The selected government and university will be required to install open-source software as a main operating infrastructure

Since when is forcing adoption the right thing to do? Is this forced switch really in the best interest of the students? What applications might they have to give up that don't have the equivelent in the open source world.

That is no better than MS forcing their software upon anyone they can. Not because it's necessarily better but because they can.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're missing the point. Whatever platform the students are presented with, that's the one they're being forced to use. This policy is not forcing FOSS on students.

Where the force is applied is on the IT and purchasing staff, where interests usually conflict, and the best decision for the people that count (students) is not always made.

This type of thing has to be forced because Microsoft has forced us into the situation in which we currently find ourselves.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[Bert64]

Any organisation forces products upon it's staff, and there's no way to avoid that in this immature industry...

The larger vendors don't bother following standards, so your stuck with very limited (or no) choice, and can't easily have a diverse setup.

Consider in contrast to a company car, sometimes you get an allowance to obtain any car you can afford.. Your free to choose the car you want.

Once the IT industry matures, and protocols/formats become standardised, it will be a lot easier and there will no longer be any need to force people to use a particular product.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[timeOday]

The "forced" argument is misplaced. If government can decide to use Windows, they can also change their minds and decide to use Linux. Switching govt. owned PCs from Windows to Linux is in no way some new act of coercion.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[js_sebastian]

currently, choice of windows vs linux is biased in favour of windows by corporate mentality, advertisement and PR from microsoft, and general habit-driven lazyness from people who are used to having windows on their pcs and want more of the same.

So a little bit of bias in the other direction, here and there, certainly won't hurt.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[tmossman]

Don't go reaching for your gun just yet. The summary was a bit misleading, choosing to quote parts with words like "required" and "have to". No one is being *forced* to do anything. The government decided to throw some money to a city and university if they were willing to make this change in infrastructure. From TFA:

`We will start to receive applications next week. After screening candidate cities and universities, the test beds are likely to be decided by late March,'' MIC director Lee Do-kyu said."

If a city or university doesn't want to have a chance to participate, they won't apply. It's not as though the gov't is just picking a town at random and saying, "YOU MUST USE LINUX!" Also from TFA:

Lee said that the project will be kick-started just after the decision of the city and university, toward which end the ministry earmarked 4.1 billion won for this year alone. ``Already many universities and local governments have shown interest in the project. We expect big-sized entities will join it,'' he added.

For reference, 4.1B won works out to just over $4.2M USD according to www.xe.com. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[1u3hr]

Since when is forcing adoption the right thing to do? Is this forced switch really in the best interest of the students?

RTFA. The cities and universities are applying for the program.

"We will start to receive applications next week. After screening candidate cities and universities, the test beds are likely to be decided by late March," MIC director Lee Do-kyu said.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[vertinox]

Since when is forcing adoption the right thing to do? Is this forced switch really in the best interest of the students? What applications might they have to give up that don't have the equivelent in the open source world.

I dunno. What are the chances that they can get the equivalent application in Korean for Windows?

Also, Koreans tend to have a bit more nationalist spirit than most western nations (remember the whole cloning stem cell debacle). If your choices were a home grown option versus an American company, then I think it would be clear choice.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[Asklepius M.D.]

Besides, creating "incentives" to use one OS over the other has been an accepted practice for ages. It's not force if there are others "available", however impractical their use might be. If the government simply "prefers" one OS over the other, that doesn't mean that individual users can't get an "alternative" on their personal systems. So this isn't "force" or "unfair competition", it's simply the choice of the masses - as represented by the gov't. Isn't this what M$ has been telling us for the past 20 years?

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[fitten]

The "forced" argument is misplaced. If government can decide to use Windows, they can also change their minds and decide to use Linux. Switching govt. owned PCs from Windows to Linux is in no way some new act of coercion.

It's not new, correct, but the original question was "is it right to force people to use something?" and there is also the old cliche of "two wrongs don't make a right". If F/OSS is about "choice", does the set of choices that F/OSS embraces include the choice of not using F/OSS? So far, most "proponents" (I would have said 'zealot') of F/OSS are all about "choice" as long as that "choice" is one they approve of. Sure, this isn't a new thing, but it doesn't make it any more right than Microsoft shoving Windows down our throats, either.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[Just Some Guy]

Since when is forcing adoption the right thing to do? Is this forced switch really in the best interest of the students? What applications might they have to give up that don't have the equivelent in the open source world.

I know exactly what you mean! When I went to school, I was forced to adopt Windows and Office. I had to give up a lot of applications that don't have the equivalent in the Windows world.

That is no better than MS forcing their software upon anyone they can.

Perhaps, but it's definitely no worse, and us non-Windows users have been putting up with it for decades. Welcome to our life.

Re:Is that the way to go about it?

[timeOday]

It's not new, correct, but the original question was "is it right to force people to use something?" and there is also the old cliche of "two wrongs don't make a right"

I don't think we're talking about privately owned computers here at all.

Right Tool for the Job?

[mosel-saar-ruwer]

The selected government and university will be required to install open-source software as a main operating infrastructure, for which the MIC will support with funds and technologies.

I thought the spirit of FOSS [or at least of /.] was supposed to be: USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB!!!

So what if M$FT Windows and M$FT Office ARE the right tools for the job? [Gasp! Horrors!! Oh the Humanity!!!]

How then would it be helping people to shove the wrong tool down their throats?

Yeah, yeah, bring it on: -1 Troll/Flamebait blah blah blah...

Re:Right Tool for the Job?

[DingerX]

Bah. ACtually, the only way FOSS is gonna fly is by (forced) adoption by many large-scale consumers (aka Governments). Right now, you have a company that satisfies 50% of requirements (most of the time) selling to organizations around the world. Everybody puts their money in, and gets a tool that *sorta* works well enough. Only when large organizations start to see an advantage in having FOSS developers on the payroll -- to improve and to adopt what's already out there -- are you gonna see widescale adoption. FOSS can't be fueled for long by supermotivated hobbyists living in their parents' basement. At some point, you need professionals to work on it, and those shelling out the billions of dollars for software are more likely to pay their bills than those raking it in.

BTW, "the major operating system without any technical glitches and security issues" made me chuckle.

Re:Right Tool for the Job?

[Bert64]

Because they cause lock-in, and it's _NEVER_ desireable to get locked in to a single vendor under any circumstances.
This is a huge overriding factor for many people, and in any other industry would be a massive problem for businesses too and yet for some reason they overlook it when buying computers (?!?) or have already been screwed over by the lock-in and are now stuck.

I would _NEVER_ lock my business in to a single vendor, that would be a grossly negligent act.

And when a company's products lock users in, it gives that company far less incentive to improve product quality... Why invest money improving your products to make people *want* them, when you can force them to keep buying anyway?

So, when microsoft start supporting open standards i will evaluate their products alongside other vendors. Until then, lack of lockin isn't just desireable, its a REQUIREMENT.

Re:Right Tool for the Job?

[mwvdlee]

It's not like the goverment is picking some random city and university and commanding them to install Linux.

Rather, cities and universities can (and do) apply for this project which gives them financial support required for their voluntary switch to linux.

Re:Right Tool for the Job?

[dodobh]

Korea might have different usage scenarios from the US. And while new stuff is being built with Linux support, the others users can have a 3 year migration plan while the sysadmins get experience. Think longer term, and you might even see the logic.

Hopefully, the Korean hardware manufacturers will improve their Linux support.

Re:Right Tool for the Job?

[i_should_be_working]

Agreed. And what you're talking about is just for a business. Imagine how much more important it is to a whole country who may not be on good terms with the country producing the software.

The enemy's products, whose source code you can't see, is the farthest possible thing from "the right tool for the job".

Re:Right Tool for the Job?

[Hymer]

So what if M$FT Windows and M$FT Office ARE the right tools for the job? [Gasp! Horrors!! Oh the Humanity!!!]
Could you pls, show us just one MS app. wich is the best in its class ?

--

I don't hate MS fanboyz, I feel sorry for them...

Re:Right Tool for the Job?

[Prophet of Nixon]

Excel?

Re:Right Tool for the Job?

[adam.ritchie]

How then would it be helping people to shove the wrong tool down their throats?

Why does everyone keep saying that every user and every computer will be required to use Linux? From TFA:

The selected government and university will be required to install open-source software as a main operating infrastructure, for which the MIC will support with funds and technologies. In the long run, they will have to migrate most of their desktop and notebook computers away from the Windows program of Microsoft, the world's biggest maker of software.

It seems that they are allowing for the fact that there will still be some users that need to use Windows (or more likely applications developed for Windows). Sounds to me like they are taking the right approach, moving most machines over to Linux but blindly forcing everyone to switch regardless of need.

Hollow Victory

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd always hoped linux would win the OS war by fielding better technology, not by government mandate.

Re:Hollow Victory

[Bert64]

And in a free market that could happen.
Unfortunately, microsoft has enough influence to destroy the concept of a free market, so government intervention is the only way to return to a free state.

Solaris, WABI

[Anonymous Coward]

My last year in school, "the big change" for one of the departments
I worked with was to install SparcStation 5's on the
front office desks, running Microsoft Office using Sun WABI.

Don't ask me why.

Oh Hellz Yes!

[ThoreauHD]

Asian girls and Linux? Where do I sign up? WHERE?!?

Re:Oh Hellz Yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

Right here. Korean girls rock.

Re:Oh Hellz Yes!

[Capt'n Hector]

Ahh but in Korea, the guys are prettier.

Re:Oh Hellz Yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

True, True...

If you want to fuck an asian, go Japanese.

Re:Oh Hellz Yes!

[elrous0]

Me eat kimchi
Me play joke
Me shove Linux down your throat

-Eric

Re:Oh Hellz Yes!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you really dig, and have some skills in Linux development, you might want to check out moving to Korea. Seriously. Looks like skilled app. developers on Linux are in line to make some fortunes here. Better yet, you won't probably hear "there is no MS Office" craps that much because a dominant office suite here in Korea was ported to Linux many years ago. Contact some Korean distros for jobs.

No technical glitches!

[daBass]

showcasing of Linux as the major operating system without any technical glitches

Linux? No technical glitches? And he already proclaims this before the trial?

Boy, is he in for a shock...

Disclosure: I love Linux (for servers) and wouldn't choose anything else. But I sure have seen my share of "glitches"!

Re:No technical glitches!

[Anonymous Coward]

When running machines on pretty much any Unix, failure is almost always due to the incompetence of whoever has the root password.

If you're having problems on a corporate machine, outside of hardware failure, you problem is most certainly you. It takes me 20 minutes to install a new x86 server (I use OpenBSD and Debian for this) and the effort involved is somewhere in the region of "sh /mnt/cdrom/install.sh".

70% of installs I do are for webservers, and I don't think I've ever had a software problem. We get it done, on the day, and it works forever. Then, a year later, we ssh into the box, and upgrade it. This way, I personally administer over 350 Debian Machines, and I experience software problems in less than 3% of cases.

When you know what you're talking about, come back.

Not the right way...

[winchester]

It should be all about choice, about what tool is the best for the job. Not about mandatory use of certain operating systems for perhaps totally unsuitable tasks.

Re:Not the right way...

[ajs318]

That's what all the Microsoft paid shills are saying ..... "choice", "right tool for the job" and so forth. Conveniently ignoring the fact that most of the time there is no choice.

• When did anyone ever have a choice of what OS comes on a new PC? For instance, have you ever tried to buy a GNU/Linux notebook?
• How often is it in the interests of an employer to offer employees a choice of operating systems? Only in a few, very specialised cases.

Also, "the right tool for the job" may well be something beautiful but expensive that requires a great effort to make locally, if part of "the job" specifically includes keeping money in the local economy rather than sending it to a foreign corporation. Remember, no matter how much you have to pay them, local programmers pay local taxes, drink in local pubs, spend their money in local stores, take their friends and family to visit local tourist attractions, and generally benefit the local economy.

Re:Not the right way...

[wwmedia]

u right linux is perfect for servers (heck i have 3 running as we speak non stop
  for almost a year), i love the stability

but for the descktop. nagh

time is money i dont have time to be surfing helpgroups for anwers whenever i want
  something done

anyways most software i use on my desktop doesnt exist on linux

good move!

[slackaddict]

Think about it - what if suddenly Linux/Unix/BSD was the mandated operating system for an entire country? Drastically reduced costs not only for the operating system itself, but also for all of the extra crap you need to keep Windows limping along. Wow... Maybe more money for teachers, schools, computers(!!), roads, healthcare, etc...

I say if Microsoft is the answer to the question, it must have been a stupid question. Go Linux!! :-)

Re:good move!

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy fuck, bud -- you are truly deluded, even for a Slashdork.

Re:good move!

[fitten]

Think about it - what if suddenly Linux/Unix/BSD was the mandated operating system for an entire country?

Well... since it would limit choice, I would say that it wouldn't be a GoodThing.

Drastically reduced costs not only for the operating system itself, but also for all of the extra crap you need to keep Windows limping along.

Prove it. Annecdotes about how you download your distro for free and such do not count. I actually pay for my Linux distribution (give money to the people so they can continue their work) and it costs the same amount as my Windows license. I don't use any more "extra crap" to keep my Windows box running than I use to keep my Linux box running. For me, it's a wash, neither is better than the other. As far as stability, they are the same as well but I take great care in buying hardware that I know is well supported (for either OS). In fact, my most unstable box lately has been my Linux box. I installed a kernel security patch and for some reason, every time I tried to FTP into it, the entire box would hang to the point of having to be power cycled. That has since been fixed, though.

Wow... Maybe more money for teachers, schools, computers(!!), roads, healthcare, etc...

Prove it.

Re:good move!

[jgc7]

What you don't realized is how little is actually spent on Windows as a percent of anything in the US economy. M$ revenue worldwide is around $30 bils, so if everyone in the world stopped using MS software today it would add less than .1% to the Global economy. People in america spend roughly $300 bils on illegal drugs, so the average american spends more than 10 times as much on drugs as MS software. The liscensing cost of the MS Software I am forced to use right now represents less than .1% of my salary (not much of a raise opportunity by switching to linux), and is trivial compared to the cost of healthcare, education, etc. MS Software is actually very inexpensive, just not compared to linux. Free software is not going to have a material impact on healtcare, transportation, or education, but better software may. I personnally believe that FOSS is better software, but it is certainly a debateable point.

Re:good move!

[colinrichardday]

From Best Buy, Harbison, SC. Prices in American dollars:

SUSE Linux 10.0: $59.99
Microsoft Windows XP Pro: $199.99 (upgrade), $299.99 (full)

Where do you get that they cost the same?

Re:good move!

[Anonymous Coward]

>>> Think about it - what if suddenly Linux/Unix/BSD was the mandated operating system for an entire country? Drastically reduced costs not only for the operating system itself...

Your forgot to mention drastically increased costs of technical support. Linux/BSD/Unix are NOT user-friendly platforms, while typical user might be able to install Win OS, install new devices and create rudimentary wireless home network the same is not a trivial task with Linux/BSD/Unix.

Re:good move!

[fitten]

I've paid for SuSE 9.0 and 10.0 (upgrade prices) in the same period of time I've paid for Windows XP Home, which isn't $199 (upgrade) (I believe it was $89 for the upgrade).

Re:good move!

[colinrichardday]

I said XP Pro, not Home. And I meant to do that, as SUSE 10.0 has some stuff that XP Home lacks.

Re:good move!

[utenaslashed]

more money for politicians no less taxes I bet!

Re:good move!

[fitten]

Like what, that's relevant?

Re:good move!

[colinrichardday]

It's relevant in terms of the price difference. Or did you mean that the distinction between XP Home and XP Pro is irrelevant to most people? Perhaps it is irrelevant for many people, but the difference between the boxed SUSE Linux 10.0 and SUSE Linux 10.0 from, say, Linux Format, would also be irrelevant.

Re:good move!

[fitten]

Why not compare it against Enterprise Windows 2003 Server, then, if the only relevant difference is price?

What bits of functionality are not present in Windows XP Home, that are present in Windows XP Professional and SuSE 10.0 which disqualify Windows XP Home as being an equivalent platform?

Other than that, being a full-time software developer, I understand the desire for those like me who like to be paid some reasonable amount on some reasonable interval. Since the only way to pay for full time developers in the OSS world is through service contracts, then that is how we pay and why I pay for my Linux distributions and why the cost must be considered as a part of my platform selection. For the featuresets that I need, Windows XP Home and SuSE 10.0 are comparable so those prices are relevant to me.

Re:good move!

[colinrichardday]

If you want those like you to be paid, then why not just download Linux and donate the money to the developers directly, cutting out the middlemen?

How do you test those domain-using apps on XP Home? Also, your pice for XP Home was for an upgrade, not the full OS.

Also, is XP (either Home or Pro) comparable to Linux at all? What compilers/interprets do they include? What web servers do they include? Oh, so even XP Pro has less for developers than SUSE Linux 10.0. Maybe we should compare it to a server version.

Re:good move!

[fitten]

I get Visual Studio .NET 2005 Express for Windows for free for development. I haven't developed software that needs access to domain manipulation. Checking/comparing login security credentials (when needed) is enough for what I've done. Using SSI and such is enough as well for database access (SQL Server 2005 Express is included for free with the above development software). I don't run web servers on Windows so I don't need the web server on a Windows box. I run Apache on my SuSE box, though. In all fairness, I actually own multiple Windows licenses (and multiple Linux distributions that I paid for) and one of which is actually Windows XP Pro. None of these things come bundled with any version of Windows. If it were, I'm sure we'd here lots of complaints about it and the "evil M$ monopoly", but that is another topic for other postings.

As far as downloading Linux and such, I don't have the time or the interest (any more) in downloading kernel sources and all that stuff and putzing around compiling the platform all day long. I want a platform to do the work that I am paid to do and the work that I want to do (the code I write for fun). Spending my time creating the platform in order to do all of those things is not what I want to spend time doing. I pay those who can provide a package that is the platform so that I'm not wasting my time doing things that are a waste of my time.

My price listed for XP Home was an upgrade, which I have lineage from Windows 95 (which was also bought as an upgrade to Windows 3.11) and every version of Windows I've purchased has been an upgrade. Had I purchased a complete machine new, from say Dell, the price of the OS has already been included in the machine and is, in fact, even cheaper than the upgrade price that is listed.

Re:good move!

[colinrichardday]

You can download precompiled ISO files and burn them to CD, and then install them in the usual way. You can also get the CD/DVD's in some Linux periodicals.

.NET

[edmicman]

So there won't be much .NET development going on there, I presume? Or is there a good *reliable* way to do real .NET development on linux platforms? Whats the deal with that Mono project?

Re:.NET

[Dan Ost]

From what little bit I've done, mono is pretty solid unless you need to use Windows Forms. If you don't use any MS-only libraries, mono will probably do what you want and be cross-platform at the same time.

Re:.NET

[mythz]

Yeah, except for the Windows.Forms namespace (and stuff like Active Directory services), the rest of the .NET 1.x framework is implemented and is ready to hack at!

GTK# on Mono is actually considered to be one of the most productive platforms for Linux GUI applications and is recommended for future applications.

Doesn't smell like freedom though

[Doodens]

"The selected government and university will be required to install open-source software" I think OSS world should make it's way by it's values, not by force. Rough approach. At least not for universities.

Re:Doesn't smell like freedom though

[nursegirl]

I know it's unfashionable to RTFA, but it says that they will be accepting applications from municipalities and universities that are interested in being the project test sites, and that a lot of people have shown interest. So, yes, if they put in an application to be the test site for open-source software, and are chosen, they will be forced to live up to their commitments. Actually, sounds pretty congruent with OSS values to me.

Re:Doesn't smell like freedom though

[howlingmadhowie]

i think oss would make it's way by it's values, if that was the way the world worked. unfortunately you also have customer lock-in, windows-tax etc etc. this is not a level playing field.

howie

Thank god.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about time. Hopefully everyone else'll catch on and microsoft will be flattened. If only.......

Missing out on free software...

[coastin]

Don't they know they will be missing out on all the free software you get when you plug a Win PC into the Net? ;-)

it is volontary!

[js_sebastian]

institutions volontarily sign up for this program, no one is forcing them (of course they do get a bunch of funding for it)

From TFA (yes, I actually read it!):

``We will start to receive applications next week. After screening candidate cities and universities, the test beds are likely to be decided by late March, MIC director Lee Do-kyu said.

And the football mascot?

[stunt_penguin]

Lemme guess, the mascot for the local football team....... a penguin?

Re:And the football mascot?

[Anonymous Coward]

that's not a funny joke.

Re:And the football mascot?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't underestimate a penguin. They can break an human arm with a flap of the wing.

Why universities and schools are not Linux

[Simonetta]

Why universities and schools are not Linux? Because Linux is extraordinarily difficult to use if you are not a trained computer professional. Granted it's better than it was thirty years ago (when it was called UNIX), but it is not yet good enough to compete with Windows on the user interface level. And in universities and schools (and nearly everywhere else), user interface is the computer.

    If Linux/UNIX users want the Windows people to switch, then make a version of Linux that looks like Windows and acts like Windows. Something that is so close to Windows that the average user doesn't know that it is not Windows.
    Is it illegal? So what. Do it anyway. Demand to be placed on juries that determine the fate of people who have been caught distributing Linux-as-Windows.

    And for God's sake, stop using acronymns for computer terms.

    For most people, the computer itself or the computer system under the interface is of little or no importance. They are using the PC as a tool to get other work done. Since Windows is so much more easier to use than Linux/UNIX (please don't tell me that they are different, because they're not) it is the system that will continue to be used by the vast majority of people that use computers. For the vast majority of people, the cost for switching from Windows to Linux is far, far greater in terms of time and energy (learning all the stupid little details of getting things done) than the monetary cost of buying Windows.

    If you make Linux look, feel, act, work, and program exactly like Windows and still be near free, then yes, everyone will switch to Linux. In the meantime, people will think that you're crazy for asking why they use Windows instead of Linux. It's obvious to them, it's because Windows is so much better and cheaper.

    For example:

    $> lms -x38i8 slsil334ss @@ $ (agl -fjldl.or)

    is an interesting puzzle to anyone with a Linux/UNIX orientation but scares the shit out of anyone who needs to use a PC to get work done NOW. Sooner or later, Linux dumps everyone onto the command line, because it has been designed that way. Windows never does. Linux people LOVE the command line; Windows people hate it.

    There are a million more things that make the user interface of Windows so much better. Nearly all are culturally invisible to Linux users.

    I do realize of course that Slashdot is the worse place in the world to point this out, but it is the truth and the truth sometimes hurts. So don't mod me to hell for saying this. Be civilized, and open-minded. Thank you.

Re:Why universities and schools are not Linux

[aug24]

Linux is extraordinarily difficult to use if you are not a trained computer professional.

No, I can't accept that sweeping statement. It isn't any harder to use than Windows. Most WMs use the same structure anyway - start->menu->program for example. If you really think the setting panel (or whatever is called) is easy to use then I think you have been borged too long.

Anyway, I have no idea what your puzzle does and I use Linux lots. There's literally no need to ever use a command line with a modern distro. My g/f with no experience of computers whatsoever found using linux a doddle.

You might think it is a pain for an amateur to get a Linux box to see a printer... Well, I have news: it's difficult for an amateur on a Windows box too, yet alone, say, install a new driver.

I'm not trying to shout you down here, but I can't believe you've even tried a modern distro like, say Xandros (although there are plenty of novice-user-friendly ones now).

Justin.

Re:Why universities and schools are not Linux

[Salsaman]

$> lms -x38i8 slsil334ss @@ $ (agl -fjldl.or)

What does that do then ?

Re:Why universities and schools are not Linux

[cosmotron]

Exactly, at my university, students who are Computer Science majors are taught how to use Linux in the first few weeks of our Introduction to Computer Science I course. It's not like Linux == Rocket Science...

Re:Why universities and schools are not Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

You are wrong of course, but you knew that before you posted.

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Home

Many of the Linux desktops are as usable if not more usable than M$ Windows. I have many non-computer literate users with Linux desktops happily operating.

Heck even my three year old can start the computer boot Linux, select the correct KDE menus and run Supertux, enter the game and start playing.

Are you really saying you are less able than a three year old to operate a computer running Linux?

http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/

rgds

Re:Why universities and schools are not Linux

[jimicus]

Exactly, at my university, students who are Computer Science majors are taught how to use Linux in the first few weeks of our Introduction to Computer Science I course. It's not like Linux == Rocket Science..

No, because if it was it would be taught in the first few weeks of the Introduction to Rocket Science I course.

Re:Why universities and schools are not Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a trained computer professional. In fact, I study Swedish at Stockholm University. Also, I'm female (as if that should matter).

Currently, I'm using a computer in the open computer "lab" (it's more like a playground as most people in here just surf, chat and sometimes someone will print something) at the uni, and the installed OS is Lunar Linux. Yes, Linux, not Windows. Admittedly, a lot of people just use rdesktop to log onto Windows, but there's also a lot of people who have realized that Firefox in Linux is pretty much the same as Firefox in Windows, except it's faster in Linux. It's the same for OpenOffice. Linux isn't hard to use when it's already installed and configured properly, as it should be in this environment. It just looks slightly different. I've been using Linux in school for over a year now, and I've never needed to use the command line.

(So why am I, the GUI junkie, reading slashdot? Well, I don't really. The "geek" next to me does, though.)

Re:Why universities and schools are not Linux

[Simonetta]

Also, I'm female (as if that should matter).

  It actually matters a great amount. There is no shortage of males who are computer literate and are willing to stop what they are doing when you have a question. Because you are female and this is one of the few chances that they get to interact with females. If you were male and had a question, and the other more computer-literate males thought that your question was 'stupid', then they would tell you that you were stupid and to just read the 2000 page manual.

Linux isn't hard to use when it's already installed and configured properly... Maybe so, but it is never distributed already installed and configured properly. And when someone from Windows attempts to do anything remotely technical, they either end up completely lost or in command-line hell. Or someone just tells them to 'read the manual'- all 2000 pages of it.

Re:Why universities and schools are not Linux

[rseuhs]

Maybe so, but [Linux] is never distributed already installed and configured properly.

Well, just like it's the administrator's job to configure and install Windows properly at a university or government, it will be the administrator's job to configure and install Linux properly at a university or government.

It's true, that being preinstalled is a major advantage of Windows in the HOME market, but in the context of this story there is absolutely no difference.

Further proof that Linux is a communist cancer

[TAZ6416]

Ohh hang on.. you said South Korea, my mistake ;)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/07/31/ms_ballmer _linux_is_communism/

Jonathan

http://www.justgofaster.com/

you Fai7 It..

[Anonymous Coward]

of 7he warring butts are exposed

We live in different worlds

[Anonymous Coward]

We obviously live in different worlds.

My Linux boxes run continuously for unlimited periods, with only the occasional mains outage ending their uptimes. Their applications never fail. They do not succumb to viruses or spywhere.

In contrast, my Windows boxes (which exist only to run games that don't run natively under Linux or through Wine) live in a world where failure and downtime is the norm, and in which the cause of problems always remains a mystery even when the problem themselves are fixed or bypassed. Inevitably the problems re-occur, and reinstallation is the norm.

We clearly live in different worlds. Despite your disclaimer, the opaque world of failure as a natural occurrence that MS has created is not one that universities should endorse.

sex wIth a Bitch

[Anonymous Coward]

discussions on are looking very errors. Future i a fact: FreeBSD Those obligations.

Dear Microsoft...

[Anonymous Coward]

...now would be a good time to send us lots of free copies of Windows and Office for our new university.

All our love,
The South Korean Government

1996 called

[nursegirl]

1996 called, and promises that all sorts of things have changed in a decade.

I'm in the process of changing over a workplace where 5/14 are computer illiterate. We specifically are changing over the illiterates first (from Win98 to Ubuntu). These are people who have difficulty knowing the difference between click and double click, and they are so far finding Linux less confusing and than the Windows boxes that they had been using for about 7 years.

Yes, installing and setting up Linux isn't easy, but this project is for municipalities and universities with IT departments. If the typical use pattern is: check email, surf web, write papers, and use a few specialty software programs, then many modern Linux distributions are well up to the task.

But...

[Anonymous Coward]

how are penguins supposed to live in such a warm climate zone?

To Quote a Phrase

[berenixium]

Well, it's about time, goddamnity!

The Matrix, er, M$ doesn't have Korea anymore!

Religious war

[justthinkit]

When governments step in, OS wars become religious wars. And maybe this is what it will take to dethrone Windows. Apple has their fanatics and Linux needs them as well. What about creating a Linux country that geek crusaders move to? Or we could take over one of those small celebrity-owned islands in the South Pacific? I'm heading to the passport office just in case.

Re:Religious war

[caffeination]

I'd say it's pretty close between Brazil and S.Korea. I'm rooting for Brazil, personally - I already speak some Portuguese.

Whoa!

[mkswap-notwar]

The test beds will prompt other cities and universities to follow suit through the showcasing of Linux as the major operating system without any technical glitches and security issues.

Waaiiiit a minute. Be careful S. Korea. While some would say Linux is "better" than Windows, nobody said it was perfect. No techinical glitches and no security issues, IMPOSSIBLE.

That Windows program

[Random BedHead Ed]

they will have to migrate most of their desktop and notebook computers away from the Windows program of Microsoft, the world's biggest maker of software

Calling Windows a "program" is a bit of an understatement. Remind me again how many gigabytes a minimal install of that program requires, and what OS it runs on. :)

Re:That Windows program

[Jedi Alec]

Calling Windows a "program" is a bit of an understatement. Remind me again how many gigabytes a minimal install of that program requires, and what OS it runs on. :)

Compared to some of the more recent games I've installed Windows XP is tiny :-) Let me know when it takes 4 ISO's ^H^H^H^H^HCD's.

Any news on Largo?

[sootman]

A few years ago, Slashdot did a couple stories on Largo, Florida's use of Linux for municipal systems. Anyone heard from them recently? Are they still using it? Does anyone know of any other cities that have followed suit?

Re:Any news on Largo?

[thegnu]

I live about 5 miles south of Largo. This is cool. I must go see it for myself. Like Mecca, only more boring and technical. And less spiritual.

"LET ME SEE YOUR COMPUTERS!!!"

Re:Any news on Largo?

[Kadin2048]

And less spiritual.

That is only because you lack devotion, Infidel.

Though, I do know some people for whom that would be a quasi-religious experience. :)

MMORPG's

[Sporkinum]

Getting linux to run the popular MMORPG's that Koreans play is probably the best way to get them to use linux.

Sad for America

[WindBourne]

South Korea is doing this not to thumb their nose at MS, or to move their country to Linux, but to move their software industry to Linux. South Korea is now targeting Software in the same way that they targeted automotive and later hardware. Considering that so many of the big and medium software houses are ignoring Linux, South Korea will end up with a HUGE advantage. I think that within 5 years South Korea will be competing against America software to the tune of billions. Think of how the Windows software came about against Mainframe software back in the late 80's/early 90s.

Freedom be damned

[DigDuality]

Look, IT departments, governments, managers who sit whacking off in cubicles all day make this choice every single day, regardless of what flavor or company they cater to. Be it MS, Linux, Mac, etc, etc.

It's rarely decided by the majority of the users, but done on a cost/benefit analysis..or through lobbying.

As it stands right now, most of the public schools in america (and a good many private ones.. from K- Uni)push Microsoft, Dell, Apple, etc. and at times this wasn't what was best for the job, but the lobbying and bidding of corporations who get thier foot in the door. Linux doesn't have many lobbyists if any, FOSS really doesn't either. There's some organizations out there that promote it, but that's really about it.

Linux and FOSS has the flexibility to do any job MS or Apple can do. No.. you might not be running the exact piece of software that you want, but guess what. YOu can get by. If i REALLY wanted to use GNU Cash, or Scribus, or Dia, (as a professor) would an IT dept be as swift to get me a linux machine? If i went and complained to it

Bottom line is, this can do the job, and it saves tax payers in the long run. Using linux, makes people a bit more tech savy too. You begin to define things as.. a web browser.. vs the "little blue E". It's a word processor, not Word. You begin to understand basic security principles..like not running with admin rights all day every day. You begin to understand that programs are nothing more than a collection of files and how to manipulate that to your advantage rather than the ol' EXE and following wizard dependency.

I can't begin to tell you how pissed off i stay for my local, state, and federal government to pay what they do for each copy of MS Office just so the majority of dipshits in the world can use Fax and Memo templates all day. Or Copies of Windows so someone can just have web and email access. From a business standpoint, it's just fiscally wasteful. And that doesn't even touch the security and stability issues.

Re:Freedom be damned

[RCanine]

You've obviously never worked in IT at a University. Here's a list of reasons, taken from a single year in IT at a small college in Michigan. Detailing why, sadly, this argument is out of touch.

1. Science faculty demand that they can run Mac OS 9 because half of their science programs don't have open-source/linux versions.
2. English professor has written all of his academic papers, lecture notes, and 3/4 of a novel in WordPerfect. Version 5.
3. Psychology professor writes his world-reknown applications in Visual Basic.
4. Office staff, when confronted with a Mac interface, spend two minutes repeatedly clicking the little bar in the top-right, trying to make the window disappear. They can't use something that doesn't look like they're home computer.
5. Doing phone tech support, you ask the calling professor whether he's using a PC or a Mac. He pauses, reads the label on his monitor, and confidently states, "a Mitsubishi!"
6. The database package that holds all student information only has a Windows client.
7. Try finding linux drivers for an Epson Pro wide-format printer.
8. Try teaching anyone to use a command line.
9. Try telling a student web developer he can't test his pages on the the majority browser.
10. The communications/new media/art departments want to develop with the Adobe Products they'll be using on their jobs.

Universities are a terrible place to force Linux adoption because you're dealing with over-inflated egos and ridiculously intense politics. You've got to satisfy the the demands of both the ultra-early-adopters and the entrenched ludites, not to mention very strict security policies and hardware support/maintenance. IT at a university requires flexibility and agility. It's not like a company or government, which can throw down a decision everyone else has to deal with.

Believe me. Upgrading to Windows XP and Mac OS X was like pulling teeth at my institution, half a decade after they were released. Change within the ivory tower is not a simple process.

Re:Freedom be damned

[ClamIAm]

Upgrading to Windows XP and Mac OS X was like pulling teeth at my institution, half a decade after they were released.

Damn man, you must be posting from the future! Windows XP: released 2001.10.25. OS X: released 2001.09.25.

Windows is not so easy

[VisiX]

Many people like to point out that Linux is difficult to install/set up and windows isn't, this is completely untrue. Windows usually comes preinstalled and set up with default options from the manufacturer. If you want linux you have to wipe the computer and install from scratch. If it were the other way around, and all computers came with linux everyone would be saying the opposite, that windows is hard to install and linux is easy (because it is actually already installed). The fact that the average user never actually installs or sets up windows makes it seem like windows set up is a snap.

The users that do reinstall windows usually do it wrong. They don't know how to format the drive, and usually end up just installing over the current winOS and keeping all their corrupted, virus ridden files that they had before. This eventually comes back to bite them in the ass. I have seen this many times.

Windows set up is not easy, it's just that noone does it. They leave all the services running that they do not need, and allow windows to run 100 programs on startup. After 2 years they are so bogged down with malware and other things they installed running on startup that it takes 5 minutes to get into windows and have the hard drive start idling. This is incredibly frustrating. So they buy a new windows computer because it is so easy to set up, and they continue the cycle.

Excellent choice for us all not just south korea

[blackest_k]

when you see uk goverment wants a backdoor into windows ( the US goverment probably has one already)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/09/05/microsoft_ collaborating_with_us_spymasters/
(not an ideal link)
It sure makes sense for korea to prefer to use something which is secure from foreign prying eyes.

South Korea is taking an obvious first step in removing a dependence on Microsofts operating systems. Why should they not want to reduce the flow of money out of their country by developing a free workable alternative. Linux isn't a perfect windows replacement yet however if the south koreans address the issues as it finds them. It seems reasonable they will develop a fully rounded version of linux that can go onto remove microsofts grip on south korea's infrastructure.

The really good news is if it works for them then it could work for the rest of the world too.
If you look at trusted computing microsoft is being trusted and why should anyone expect that between microsoft and the US goverment they can be trusted with the IP of another competing nation.

I am not being anti US here if you gave the keys to the worlds collective IP to any nation its a foregone conclusion that nation will use it to its own advantage.

Earth calling

[boatboy]

through the showcasing of Linux as the major operating system without any technical glitches and security issues

Now I like Linux as much as the next, but to say there will be no technical glitches or security issues is poor project planning.

That's not good enough.

[twitter]

enormous discounts to keep them on windows. at our university, microsoft charges us about 10% of list price. a year or two ago, every employee at our university was given free upgrade to the latest version of windows

As the Softies are quick to point out, purchase costs are small parts of TCO. All the free beer in the world won't make up for time wasted on daily anti-virus runs, difficult place keeping due to short run times and an inadequate GUI. Even with co-operation of other M$ partners, the environment is hardly "abundant" and the complexities of non-free licensing take their toll. Microsoft, as much as they try, can not be all things to all people so everyone has half a dozen "third party" applications that have to be acquired, licensed and installed. Those installs, even when they don't disable other required programs, are notorious for their complexity and fragility. Just when you think you have what you need, the upgrade train or a worm comes along and wipes it all out. All of the above sucks life in a way that free software never will and the difference in costs and hassle will only grow as free software continues to improve. So, free beer is no longer good enough.

The only thing Microsoft has going for it is an aging, irrational fan base. They created that base with gifts and propaganda, but no propaganda will make up for their performance short falls. The free software model has proved itself again and again. The word is getting out.

Re:That's not good enough.

[FireFury03]

All the free beer in the world won't make up for time wasted on daily anti-virus runs, difficult place keeping due to short run times and an inadequate GUI.

All the free beer in the world could make you too drunk to care though :)

Games...

[fitten]

This will be fine and all until all those people realize that they can't play games or that it is a lot of work to get the game to work (edit source files and recompile Wine to get Continuum to run - puhleaze...).

The entertainment side of PCs is a huge market as well. Until games come out on it at the same time as Windows releases, wide adoption will still be difficult. Of course, game companies can't make games without spending money so as long as game companies think (right or wrong) they won't make any money by spending the money to port to Linux, it will be an uphill battle for that.

Being Korea, I can't imagine those students being happy with being unable to play games.

Re:Games...

[Anonymous Coward]

Call the Waaaahmbulance! It plays games and plenty of them. Hell it may even end up playing more if those software engineering students can refine Wine to work with the games they want. Think of it as an essential exercise in programming. If you pass you can play your game. Makes perfect sense to me!

Performance is Relative.

[twitter]

Disclosure: I love Linux (for servers) and wouldn't choose anything else. But I sure have seen my share of "glitches"!

I love free software as a desktop and have seen fewer glitches there than under Windoze. I get better than sixty day uptimes running testing/unstable, unheard of in the Windoze world. Sure, every now and then something barfs but it never takes the system down and rarely even bothers X. The same server grade networking continues to churn and never has problems. I use free software on desktops, laptops and PDAs. With less tweaking than Windoze, it works better every time.

Re:Performance is Relative.

[daBass]

There is a difference between a glitch and an all out crash! Though I

This also wasn't meant as a competition between Windows and Linux; I prefer OS X on the desktop. All the power of a unix (great for development) with a good looking gui that is more stable than Windows and more managable than all the Linux desktops I tried. ("things just work" isn't just a marketing slogan, I can testify) The only thing affecting my uptime there are updates that require a restart. (one every month, maybe)

But it is a premium over a dirt cheap Dell or home built box running Linux, for sure.

Re:Performance is Relative.

[jrumney]

You don't have to use Korean IMEs and the pleasure that is 'Asianux' (think Lindows in its early days, and then try to imagine what must have been like 6 months before that).

penguins everywhere!

[wwmedia]

anyone see that film "March Of the Penguins"?

GPL is best for the big

[2901]

No per seat fees and you get the source. Who actually benefits? It is not much use to a sole trader. He cannot spare the time to fix bugs and recompile, and he is only saving one license fee.

On the other hand, you only have to fix a bug once. A large company can employ a few free software programmers to take advantage of access to the source. They can compare the costs to what they save on license fees. If they are big enough, they are bound to come out ahead.

It is completely natural for heads of large organisations and governments to want to force through the adoption of free software, for it is at the top of the organisation that per seat license fees are agregated and compared to the once per organisation costs of hiring your own experts.

N3P - College level training in Open Source

[network23]

The Swedes have already done this, but they are also using BSD (as in Darwin, free iBooks for all students):

From their web page: http://n3p.se/en.php

WELCOME TO N3P

N3P offers a brand new, contrasting and intrepid two-year college level training in how to become a successful Project Entrepreneur in Open Source or Project Entrepreneur in Omni Communications. Our students will learn not only the technical possibilities, but also how to exploit new business opportunities, manage profitable ideas, and create flourishing businesses.

Each year, N3P admits 80 students - 20 at our classrooms in Stockholm City, 20 through a system of advanced distance learning and 40 at out new classrooms in Malmö/Copenhagen. There will be two new classes each year 2006-2008, with the possibility to expand the concept into other regions and markets.

The typical student is between 20 and 30 years old, driven by one of three motivations; 1) the desire for prosperity, 2) independency or 3) to radically innovate. N3P will carefully screen the applicants for doers, not talkers, while persistence, passion and the ever so important ability to sell, are other important criteria.

The training in Stockholm will focus on how to generate business using open source. The training in Malmö/Copenhagen will focus on how to generate business with Omni Communication.

The future will show a great demand for individuals that have the ability to implement necessary changes. They should be entrepreneurs, fluent in new technology, project management and marketing. They also should excel in sales and development of new products and businesses. N3P identifies them as "Project Entreprenerus".

Most of our students will form their own business before graduating, and it is our expectation that many will be very successful.

About N3P

N3P is a privately owned AVE/C - advanced vocational college - financed and accredited by the Swedish Department of Education. The students can apply for loans and grants from the government financing authority, CSN. N3P is no different than other colleges and universities in Sweden, except for the fact that we are encouraged to be as practical and pragmatic as possible, training our students in tough and realistic situations. Our students will not sit down to construct strategies for others - they will roll up the sleeves and do the task for themselves, thereby putting their own stakes at risk.

The school is closely associated with the corporate world and a variety of organizations, thus bringing a stream of interesting speakers, real-life assignments, and advanced uses for the student body's knowledge. The students have two 15-week intervals where they actively work in a select workplace with real-life problems and their solutions. The intense training, although in an educational setting, will have little in common with the traditional traineeship period.

Representatives for companies and organizations are at a majority on the school's Board of Directors. At N3P we are proud to have representatives from the MTG Media Group, Apple Computer, The City of Stockholm, The University of Linkoping, The National Police Board, The National Labor Market Board, Cap Gemini, SonyEricsson, The City of Malmö - as well as ten very successful individual serial entrepreneurs from media, IT and design.

The founders of N3P have worked with training and education in new media and IT for the past 20 years, successfully graduating over 50,000 students. Before N3P, they co-founded the respected MacMeckarna®, Masters of Media and the AcadeMedia group - which is now listed on the Stockholm stock market, and established as one of the largest and most successful education companies in Sweden.

A city of Linux geeks?

[Ekevu]

A city of Linux geeks? With a, dunno, 10-to-1 proportion between males and females? THAT'S JUST HELL! I do like Linux, but girls' usability is a lot more... intuitive. And their features will never beat any operating system! :D

"It Just Works" Linux

[Kadin2048]

I think this is exactly the route to take.

I think everyone has been going down a blind path trying to make Linux run on every piece of cruddy hardware under the sun (although this may just be the way an organic, geek-user-run project goes); if I were a billionaire and had my own Linux distro, I'd concentrate on picking one set of easily available hardware, and making it run well on that.

People -- and this includes the people that make purchasing decisions at businesses and educational institutions -- want to be able to buy something and know that it's going to work. If you could set someone up with a Linux machine and say "if you want to buy hardware, order it from this site," and give them the Linux equivalent of the Apple Store, the situation would be a lot easier than it is now.

Mac users don't go into Best Buy and expect the latest piece of crap to work in their Apple box, but if you give someone Linux and don't have a really good HCL, they're going to. They see the same white-box PC as a Windows machine, they're going to assume the same hardware is going to work. The way to get rid of that perception -- and it's a very damaging one, because Linux isn't ever going to compete with Windows on the hardware-compatibility front in the near future with every crappy peripheral in existence -- is creating a "brand identity" that includes supported hardware.

Heck, this is all Sun does with its low-end workstations, and they arguably have less software available for them than most Linux distros. There's no reason why there couldn't be a "RedHat Computer" or a "Ubuntu Computer," or just a "Linux Computer," to compete with "Windows Computers." Sure it might be slightly misleading, but it would improve the reputation of Linux as a product.

"It just works" is more a matter of branding than anything else, and that's where the Linux community seems to fall a little short.

Hypocrisy

[colinrichardday]

You tell us to stop using acronyms for computer terms, but you are perfectly willing to use the acronym "PC".

Good move

[kired]

I'm sure they will like "dd". Makes cloning so easy.

Korean university scientist

[mountainnstream]

I heard a Korean university scientist has successfully cloned Linux using human stem cell.

I've used Korean Linux software.

[twitter]

You don't have to use Korean IMEs and the pleasure that is 'Asianux' (think Lindows in its early days, and then try to imagine what must have been like 6 months before that).

As a Zaurus owner, I've used Hamcom software. It was OK in English, how bad could it be native?

Welcome to Torvaldsville, S. Korea.

[Bushido Hacks]

* Possible Chamber of Commerce Video Dialog *
Welcome to Torvaldsville, S. Korea! Home of Torvalds University, home of the Fighting Penguins! GO PENGUINS! * Hums the Notre Damne Theme. *

Re:Welcome to Torvaldsville, S. Korea.

[YodaToad]

Based on the lore behind Linus and the penguin, shouldn't it be Biting Penguins?

Re:Welcome to Torvaldsville, S. Korea.

[ClamIAm]

I thought it was a fairy penguin...

In yer face Evil Bill

[Anonymous Coward]

What he^ said!

Americian cities have done something similar..

[bob2cam]

But they reversed it and just used Windows.

most south korean web sites are for activex

[skynare]

i don't think the switch will be easy. many popular korean sites like: cyworld.com clubbox.co.kr pandora.tv ...etc etc are for IE only.

In soviet russia...

[dp_wiz]

You have to support government for installing Linux. Harsh reality.

People do not understand alchemy vs chemistry

[Dollyknot]

Back in the day, chemistry was not called chemistry, it was called alchemy. The only real difference between alchemy and chemistry, is that chemists published their results and alchemists kept their results a secret. Once alchemy became chemistry, people could stand on the shoulders of giants.

People think the whole debate is about windows vs linux, it is not so. This debate is about open source vs closed source. One comment I read seemed to be complaining about the average linux distro requiring about three CD iso's for an installation, whereas XP will quite happily sit on one CD.

Will the little snotty nosed kid at the back of the class, please tell me why wasting two blank CDs to download an OS, to you're 'puter is wasting two blank CDs, yes ladies an gentlemen, windows XP will fit happily fit on one CD and is garaunteed to cure coughs and sneezes.