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ATI Claims HDCP Then Covers Its Tracks
BigControversy writes "It looks like a big can of worms is being opened. The DailyTech.com is reporting that ATI sold millions of video cards knowing that HDCP support was not enabled. Despite that, the cards were sold and advertised to its customers as having HDCP capabilities. A day or two after this information was revealed, HDMI.org went completely password protected and ATI is now modifying key areas of its website, removing any mention of 'HDCP-ready'."
an opportunity for a class action!
"Some products boast HDMI connectivity, when they do not even have a physical HDMI connector nor do the products ship with an adapter. Even if they do, having a HDMI connector does not mean the board is able to output a HDCP-DVI signal."
How in the world can they ship this? It's not even a firmware bug.. It's missing in its entirety! Been disliking ATI recently.. this dropped them down to the "I'd rather buy a S3 Virge" video card level..
-B
I think ATI is going to have to do more than cover its tracks to get out of this one. Now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag there's no way some enterprising lawyer and disgruntled techies aren't going to start up a class action law suit. And this shouldn't even be hard to prove since it's obvious it just doesn't work/isn't supported unlike some lawsuits where they argue a product didn't "live up" to expectations.
It looks like the cached copy on Google will be the copy submitted in court. I just bought a new ATI card, one of the reasons was because they claimed to support this feature.
"...we dont care about the economics; we just want to be able to hack great stuff."
Making a mistake? Fair enough. Treating your customers like idiots and trying to hide what you've done, though, is not something that is going to fly in this day and age. ATI are going to pay through the nose on this one and doing stupid things like this to try to paint over the damage done is just plain stupid.
Come clean, apologise publicly, recall products, do whatever you can to ensure that you have supported and looked after your customers. But to do this sort of thing smacks of burying your head in the sand.
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
--- Nick, hard at work
If sufficient chaos ensues, perhaps this can be the issue that pulls HDCP requirements out of Windows. Without support from Microsoft (who has no real financial interest in HDCP), HDCP will probably fail in the marketplace.
Hopefully this little 'mishap' will be the thing that makes it such that all our new LCD monitors aren't obsolete after all.
This appears to be a serious mis-step on the part of ATI. It's not clear that they intentionally tried to mislead people, but the signs sure point in that direction. It's possible some marketing wonk put out a memo that ATI is now "HDCP ready", and that propogated to all press releases without proper oversight or anyone picking and choosing which cards support it and which don't. Somehow, I doubt a company that has dealt with bleeding-edge technology for so long would make such a mistake. The alternative explanation is they pushed the fancy new buzzword, hoping that the average user would see it and say, "Oh, HDCP, I saw a PC-Magazine headline with that term, it must be good!" and buy the card. These users will never even know that they were duped. The more tech-savvy users are the ones that will really care.
And therein lies the rub. We, the "geek community" are making progress in educating the general populous about the importance of understanding technology, but there is a long way to go. Until more people learn to read advertisements critically and learn that knowing exactly what you're buying is important, companies will continue to perpetuate these deceiving business practices. In this case, ignorance truly is bliss, but it's the average consumer's ignorance that leads to ATI's bliss.
My guitar chord generator.
That being said, of course ATi should roll out a driver that has hardware HDCP enabled, or offer some form of compensation to previous buyers whom were mislead.
/dev/random
Which is what I can't figure out. If the company messed up, why not issue an apology and offer to replace /refund any defective products? Why put a bad light forward that you won't stand behind your products that you sold incomplete and then force your legal team to charge you more money to which they will just settle the class action suit to just do the same (replace the products) in the end anyway?
"If all the world's a stage, I want to operate the trap door." - Paul Beatty
Well, it's time to admit something: I loathe "HD-ready" and all that surrounds it. DRM, TCPA, all that 3-4 letter acronyms that smell like "hand over your consumer rights".
Now, I'm normally not a person to hop onto FUD and vent it 'til it stinks, but can't we hype that a little 'til no moron buys that crap anymore, and see the whole DRMism bomb like a tacnuke? It would certainly help prevent stripping us of any of the few rights left on our scale in the "balance between producer and consumer" when it comes to content.
So far the consumer drones would buy it for the simple "booooooyehy, look at the stunnin' crystal clear display!" without realizing what comes behind it. They don't care that the content industry dictates what they may see and what not, after all, what they want to see is that latest blockbuster movie and not some small movie maker's gems.
But hearing that their $500 piece of hardware ain't gonna do it should surely be an argument.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
Its already fairly common in the marketplace. My DVD player uses it, for example.
There's no chaos there. Vista will require HDCP-encrypted channels to display restricted content, which will include purchased online content, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD content, as well as CableCard and DBS content.
People's computers will either work with it, or they'll have to buy new ones.
The support of HDCP is not an optional thing -- the content will not be available without it regardless of what chaos ATI may or may not create through questionable marketing of their products. Since most, if not all, computer monitors do not support HDCP right now, that'll be the place there will be issues. But none of them will cause HDCP to fail.
Had to use tinyurl as slahdot cannot parse the wayback URL properly.
You can't hide what was on the website; there are too many archiving mechanisms out there that will reveal the truth. Then, if a fraud has occurred, there'll be class-action litigation undertaken.
If you have ATI stock, dump it, now, before the Chapter 11 filing; you might get a few cents out of it. Otherwise, make plans to obtain another adapter. If ATI can make good on the adapter, it'll be a miracle for them.
But if the info in the article is true, it's the harbinger of the end of ATI as we knew them. Pity.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Actually, rather than remove each reference to it, they should REPLACE it with references on how to get a refund.
My ATI gives BS and my HDCP card is DOA. HDML is MIA and I am PO'd and SOL.
CRAP
Between HDCP, HDMI, Blu-Ray, DRM, DCMA, and HD-DVD, I just get a feeling that its all about to crumble. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will both fail I believe and a 3rd technology will emerge at some point that doesn't have the backing of Hollywood. When will technology companies start producing technology again and stop trying to be the pawns of Hollywood.
Like the first post said, it'll end up as a class action suit most likely. Nvidia has the luxury of blaming the board manufacturers, ATi can't hide behind that. Vertical Integration isn't that bad until you screw up and get caught lying about it...
Now, this doesn't make nvidia the smarter purchase choice at this point, because none of their boards support it either. Maybe when the 7900 comes along in about a month or so though. Hopefully the board makers (evga, bfg, xfx, etc.) realize that they'd better get it out there after this fiasco.
ConsultingFair.com
It's not the crime that gets you into trouble....it's the cover up. ATI is foolish to try to cover this up. They should have just announced a "mistake" and made some offer to existing customers to make things better. They are a public company and the SEC is going to be very interested in this since they are listed on the NASDAQ exchange in the US.
You can't fix this with a driver. If you could this would be a non-issue. The video card needs a Trusted Computing Module chip installed that contains secret keys that the user cannot access. No chip = No HDCP. And it's not like there's a socket on most video cards waiting to be populated.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I hardly think I'm the only one, but I'll be one of the first to purchase the first consumer level graphics card that puts out an HD signal to a "legacy" DVI monitor. The concept of "illegal technology" just brushes me the wrong way, and I'm confident there's some entrepreneural South Korean or Singaporian manufacturer who just isn't able to, however hard he tries, give a rat's ass about what some *AA halfway round the world thinks of their customers.
yes, we have no bananas
It's everyone, not just ATI. Plenty of nVidia cards advertise it and don't have it. In fact, no video card in public release truely supports HDCP. So anyone who advertises it is lying.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
HDMI does not inherently include HDCP. The specific is a bit loose in the way people interpret it. HDMI is the physical standard, HDCP is essentially a data layer standard. It's the same as wondering why you only get two channel audio if you use an SPDIF interface (AC-3/Dolby Digital). Sure, SPDIF can carry full 5.1 audio, but that doesn't mean it has to. This is the same with HDMI and HDCP. What I think most people are confused or frustrated with is some displays say HDMI support, and don't tell you that they require HDPC as well. You gotta figure that one out by visiting forums.
Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
If you purchased the card for its qualities, then found out that you were LIED to, how are you going to justify purchasing again from that vendor?
Let's say that in a fit of egalitarianism, Apple allowed the iPod to play Ogg Vorbis. You bought one, then found out they lied and covered it up. You have a huge library of media, some of it in Ogg format.
Would that affect your decision to buy something from Apple again, especially an iPod? You'd want to check to make sure that it indeed does play that format. Extending this analogy, let's say that you want to make sure that Vista works on your machine with an ATI card, and ATI says, sure, it works fine. But it doesn't. Are you going to make damn sure that it does? How will you check if the drivers are unvavailable to you because the product, as yet, is unreleased?
Has ATI shown that they're both trustworthy and willing to admit mistakes and deal with the issue? No. Instead, they covered it up. I can't predict whether they'll suffer enough to go into Ch11, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities. What other product promises have they made that are now suspect? No, this is an ethics problem, not to mention fraud. ATI doesn't get away so easily with this.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
How in the world can they ship this? It's not even a firmware bug.. It's missing in its entirety! Been disliking ATI recently.. this dropped them down to the "I'd rather buy a S3 Virge" video card level..
Ahhh, the good old S3 Virge. Still got one of them lying around. Whenever I'm faced with a machine that refuses to post(or at least refuses to display a screen) I plop in that card to rule out the possibility of the graphics card being the problem. Always works, no matter the OS.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
While what you describe might be occurring, I refer you to a basic lifesaving mantra:
ATI may just be stopping the bleeding, that is, first taking steps not to deceive any other potential customers. In fact, if they were to do anything else there would be a situation where they'd be saying "Sorry, we were wrong" while continuing to allow customers to get the wrong idea.
Watch their public statements and what they do next before rushing to judgement.
sigs, as if you care.
Of course all those video cards are "HDCPI Ready". They *can* generate the encrypted content. No sweat.
But (and here's the rub), the content providers (strike that, the "copyright industry", or CI) have decided to not trust any "home-brew" system. Which means that the keys won't go to the cards (because the *system* isn't trusted) and the feature is now useless.
Of course, a new system can have exactly the same chip, and it will then work.
Its the CI backlash against the DVD crack (which, of course, a vendor of playback equipment was responsible for -- which is NOT being forgotten). Coupled with some bad crypto choices, and DVDs are now wide open. The CIs would want to prevent this, and are now qualifying everything (my opinion).
External boxes can only produce SD (DVD) quality output on analog, which is what Vista will generate as well.
ATI make chips, boards and drivers. They (in my opinion) couldn't care less -- they just implement the spec. They put it the feature, and now can't use it because of key control concerns; they have been caught with their pants down.
Is is possible for ATI to sue the CIs? Because if I were in ATI, I would be as mad as a wet hen right now.
Ratboy.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
This whole HCDP thing strikes me as being very anti-consumer; I don't know of anyone who would actually want such a thing, since it essentially makes perfectly good equipment obsolete for no (technically valid) reason. The way I see it, it's a way for a few rich people to get even more rich, at our expense.
So, I put forth the question: can it be made to fail?
Is this a way to hype up demand for DRM tech?
Some people say ATI is being really stupid.
But are they really stupid, or is someone really really cunning and ATI got paid off to "screw up".
This way with all the fuss etc, Joe Public will go: "Wow my next video card MUST HAVE HDCP".
So who's being stupid here?
At ATI, we are committed to conducting our business with the highest level of integrity, honesty and professionalism. Maintaining high standards are also critical for maintaining investor confidence and shareholder value as a publicly traded and world-leading high-tech company.
The Code of Ethics outlines the key principles and policies that define our business practices and formalizes these standards. The rules set out in the Code serve as a complement to the corporate by-laws, policies and other corporate requirements and directives governing the conduct of ATI and its employees. In its application, the Code applies to all ATI directors, officers, and employees, whether full-time or part-time, and to all other service providers including, contractors and consultants.
ATI's Code of Ethics extends to wherever business is carried out on ATI's behalf including ATI offices, business travel and any other work-related functions such as meetings with third parties, seminars, conferences and training programs. As everyone lives up to the expectations in all places of business, in this regard ATI's reputation as an excellent company with high ethical standards will be upheld.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
free Mac mini [freeminimacs.com] Now thats
Then why are you trying to suck people into a pyramid to get a free Mac mini... which uses an ATI video chipset? I guess you'll take ATI for "free" then?
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Actually, wrong.
*IF* the driver is trusted, the chip is not needed. But, such a driver *may* be trusted by Microsoft, but won't be trusted by the "copyright industry".
So, no content for you. The CI has spoken.
If Microsoft said "HDCP" will be supported in Vista, why wouldn't the video board manufacturers believe it? Microsoft cowed to the CIs, and ATi and nVidia can't put the feature in the driver, and customers are left holding the bag of shit.
Go ahead -- sue suE SUE!!! It will be fun to watch. Class action against ATi (and nVidia). Who, in turn sue Microsoft, who, in turn, sues (?) in the CI business.
Ratboy
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Perhaps ATI marketing don't really understand it even though ATI techies and customers do.
That ATI are now trying to hide things from their google-cache-aware techie customers confirms this.
Sam
blog.sam.liddicott.com
Personally I'm hoping for as many of these screw ups on the manufacturer's part as possible. I'm also hoping that HD-DVD comes to market soon enough before Blu-Ray that the outrage over incompatibility issues causes the Blu-Ray group to ratchet down their DRM stuff a bit. DRM is now a major obstacle to coming out with new consumer gear, and mark my words even the approved compatible products will break in industry unexpected ways. The buying public will not tolerate equipment that is as crash prone and glitchy as PCs are.
Ironically all these attempts to lock down HD-DVD and Blu-Ray to thwart piracy will probably accelerate piracy as people who have been buying EXPENSIVE HIGH END gear will feel little remorse in resorting to pirated material to display on their setups. The industry is fooling itself if it thinks it can keep real pirates from cracking their content by whatever method, when there will be such a huge demand from the installed based of early adopters.
It won't happen, but I would love to see legislation that forbids intentionally crippling products or creating some artificial market segmentation to insure some business model. Maybe when the HD-DVD Blu-Ray debacle really begins will we some come modification to the really bad legislation that is the DMCA. At least they are considering really spanking people the put Root-Kits in products. Maybe we need the CRMA (consumers rights millennium act) to balance some of this madness.
Letter To Iran
Do a google search for x1300 hdcp, then look at the google cache for the ati result.
It has this in it:"
# Flexible display support
* Dual integrated DVI transmitters (one dual-link + one single-link)
o DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready
The 3rd technology has already emerged.
l l the other outlets versus RIAA is a joke.
H.264 on standard DVD, with the upgrade path being ANY sort of higher capacity device.
H.264 means you can do 1080p (not 1080i, but 1080 progressive) with 5.1 audio in 1 MB/sec. That's about 3.5 GB per hour. That gives you 2.5 hours of 1080p on a standard DVD disk. You can squeeze the main title in 2, and then use the remainder for all the other stuff in SD. Or, make it a two disk set. Both of these will cost FAR, FAR less than blu-ray or HD-DVD.
H.264 enables SD TV over standard broadband, NOW. Take a look at this: http://www.apple.com/macosx/cnbc/ . Thats technically 480p content. Its playing at 675 kbit/sec, or 84.73 KB/sec. 720p content is similarly small; you'll have no problems whatsoever fitting everything you'd want on a single title blu-ray disk onto a standard dvd if your encoding with H.264 on 720p.
I suspect with a really smart encoder, using intelligent VBR type stuff, you can get 1080p down to an average of 800-900 KB/sec. Perhaps even less. If someone can get the standard DVD above the 3 hour of footage barrier, blu-ray/HD-DVD immediately become a niche market, at least until HDTV 2.0 comes out. Oh; and new displays, as well. But even with _today's_ setup, you can fire up Final Cut Studio, and produce a 2.5 hour feature length movie, slap in on a standard DVD in 1080p, and then put all your extras on the second disk.
H.264 enables 1080i HDTV on a standard dual layer DVD. You need a beefy processor to play it back, but various manufacturers have already produced embedded decoders. H.264 is the future of IPTV, of satellite transmission, even cable transmission. Most likely, the "upgrade" path is H.264 on standard disks, and then the elimination of disks altogether.
Why would I _EVER_ carry a pile of blu-ray disks around when I could simply walk with an iPod, or a mobile phone, or a flash disk, or some other portable media library, and wirelessly (bluetooth 4.5, or 802.11n, or whatever) "rent" a video from the blockbuster kiosk? Heck; strip out the middleman; just buy the movie from iMovie store, or Amazon's movies, or Walmart Video Online. Whatever; it doesn't matter.
The thing is, the entertainment industry is trying to drag us kicking and screaming towards a "secure" disk format, and they are about to be absolutely blindsided by the U.S. retail/rental entertainment industry. Walmart alone dwarfes the RIAA; Walmart+Apple+Blockbuster+Target+Amazon+NetFlix+A
Especially when Walmart can distribute videos at a cost of 5-10 cents via electronic (or rental, or flash) distribution, and blu-ray disks cost $23 wholesale! Ever met a Walmart purchasing agent? Those guys give new meaning to "hard barginer", and make your look like a fool and his money.
A properly devised mobile media library will end physical media. You'll carry 30% of your media around with you, with the other 70% being stored securely over the internet, either streamed from or from your media center system at home. Microsoft and Apple are both going this direction; the lack of HD-DVD on Xbox 360 has locked them into this path, and Apple's been dreaming of running the TV/Video market with H.264 Quicktime. Much of the consumer electronics industry is interested in Blu-ray/HD-DVD, but retailers are going to squeal when they see how much it costs, and are going to squeal again when one of their competitors ships standard DVD products with the same features at 1/10 the price; with the only disadvantage being 2 disk sets versus 1 disk.
HDCP, HDMI, Blu-ray, HD-DVD; whatever. Not that this is the end of DRM, that'll certainly be in both Apple's and Microsoft's schemes. But the content distribution of tomorrow won't be run by the RIAA/MPAAs of the world; it'll be run by the computer side of the tech industry.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
You are using HDMI in place of HDCP. HDMI is simply a physical inteface. It carries the same signaling as does DVI-D with the adition of Audio over some extra wires. DVI and HDMI can very easily be converted to one annother and BOTH support HDCP signaling.
This makes the article look suspect, maybe it does have support after all and the web site monkeys just pulled it down until they knew for sure, the web page they use an an example http://www.ati.com/products/RadeonX1900/specs.html
still has HDCP ready on it...not just the google cache as they claim
# Flexible display support
* Dual integrated dual-link DVI transmitters
o DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready
"The server rejected one or more recipient addresses. The server response was: 550 unknown user (contact@hdmi.org)".
Clever am I to notice that the pages are .asp... okay.... I (shuddering with self loathing) use... MSIE . Same error ;-) I notice that this is the same page that you are directed to when you select "Contact".
:
Checking further (with directory assistance) there is no listing for a phone contact for HDMI.org in beautiful Sunnyvale, CA....
Okay, so maybe their server is being slashdotted(dededed), so I try DIRECTLY emailing those shy fellows and get (drum roll please):
"Hi. This is the qmail-send program at yahoo.com.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
72.32.30.237 does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 550 unknown user
Giving up on 72.32.30.237."
It just keeps getting more funny...