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Windows Drivers for Mac Rolling Out
OSXpert writes "Sure, we all know that Windows can now run on intel Apple Computers. Alas, the solution does not include drivers, and until now Mac users could still only hope to be able to use every application available to their Windows counterparts. However, with drivers now working 100% on the Mac Mini and drivers for the MacBook Pro only lacking video (which, by the looks of the 2nd link is only days away), Mac users now have a complete and working Windows solution."
But can it run.... never mind.
The development community is fantastic. I have no urge to buy a Mac at the moment, but I may reconsider. Most companies would stumble when making a major platform jump, but Apple are going strong.
TUAW
Common sense is not so common
...you're part of the Windows Problem, I guess.
And I know this thread will just consist of - "why would you want to do that?" "Whats the point, when your running OS X? It's so much better..."
Shut up. This is a good thing. Many people need to use Windows for work, and this lets do that. Whilst giving them the good stuff at home. Many people like to play computer games that aren't photshop.
Don't be stupid. Please.
Please!
http://skeptobot.blogspot.com/ - A site for the Renaissance man and woman
You can use Mac OS X with proper drivers (i.e. written by Apple, as they intended) and now (if you want to) you can use any 'Windows Only' applications that may be foisted upon you by, say, your job. Come on, people, it's not rocket science. Plus, when Linux is fully up, you'll have a completely triple-boot machine. All of which makes it even harder for the beancounters in your enterprise job(tm) to say "No, you can't have one of those because it can't run Approved Software(tm)".
Asking "Why would you?" is aking to shoving your head in the sand and asking "Why would you run a Mac?" Sure, go ahead and limit your choices. I'll be taking one from *every* column, thanks.
A hero is someone who knows when to run away. I am a hero. -Trent the Uncatchable
I see this comment on every thread dealing with this. Here are the answers:
1)Why not? It's geeky, it's fun, it's what being a nerd is all about.
2)Games. What if you want to be productive on OSX but want to reboot to play some win-only games every so often
3)tax software. This is a big one for this, why bother buying a win machine for something you do once a year when you can just install win on your nice mac.
4)Some people honestly like apple hardware but need to run windows. Try finding a non-apple box with as small a desk footprint as a mac mini.
5)Along the same lines, people who do all their work on laptops and dont want to carry 2 laptops around can now just carry a macbook pro.
6)Quick compatability checks for software. Yes, I realize that for major cross platform dev you might want 2 boxes, but for quick checks (see the laptop comment too) this is invaluable.
There are more of course, thats off the top of my coffee-depirved head right now.
~Anubis
"goodbye and hello, as always" ~Prince Corwin, from Zelazny's Amber series
Lots of people griping about the use of it, but who cares about that? It's like asking about why you'd dual boot Linux and Windows.
I like the idea - the hardware is nice, I like the OS, but I'm not 100% certain that the programs I use some of the time has been ported to OS X or if it has a usable counterpart on OS X. Lack of something like WINE makes this a viable option, should I choose to get a Mac (looking dreamily at the MacBook Pro).
I'd get nice hardware, an excelent OS and the option of still using the old and busted OS and irreplacable programs if I need them. Best of all parts I think.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
My daughter will be entering Univ. of Cincinnati's DAAP (Design, Art, Architecture & Planning) school next fall. The college uses almost all Macs EXCEPT for the Industrial Design program, which requires a PC running Windows. She much prefers a Mac, and was probably going to buy a Mac for her own use and a PC for any school requirements. However now she could just get an Intel MacBook and a copy of XP.
Because Microsoft have done their very best to prevent operating systems other than Windows from being compatible with Windows. MS Office won't even be out on Mac for months yet! (maybe years, considering Vista delays)
DirectX ensures that no operating system will ever run games quite as well as Windows will, unless game developers drop DirectX. (which they should do, considering that OpenGL + SDL can mean that almost no code changes would be necessary to compile a game for almost any platform)
Unpimp my Mac?
MS representing on the Apple tip ya'll.
You say you want a revolution....
I would think that application developers would benefit from having a single, dual-boot system to develop in two flavors. Maybe this will benefit the Mac community by making it easier for resource-strapped app innovators to buy a macintel box that lets them server OSX and Windows app consumer markets.
Moderation in All Things... Especially Moderation - gurutc
"Do you know how the orcs came to be? They were elves once." :)
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
"...Mac users now have a complete and working Windows solution."
You really do have a very different view of 'complete', 'working' & 'solution' from most people I know.
Mac users now have a complete and working Windows solution.
Cool! Now maybe they can sell it to Microsoft to get their Windows solution to work too?
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
If Microsoft has any sense, they'll make damn sure that Vista supports all of the hardware that Apple uses. Any additional retail Windows sales they might get from this have got to be good (because how many people buy Windows off the shelf nowadays?) - and isn't 5% of the market a lot to ignore?
They'll never do a "Windows for Apple" - it'd be too easy for Apple to pull the rug from under them - but I wouldn't be surprised if Vista quietly gains support for the non-working components and 32bit EFI, and that this quickly becomes the worst kept secret in computing...
Everyone, please ... repeat after me:
Options are never bad!
one more time...
Options are never bad
Just like I know I shouldn't put regular gas in a porche... I want the thing to run on it in case of an emergency.
The problem with being an Alternate OS user, regardless of preferred OS, is that Microsoft is still the 2 ton Gorilla in the professional sector. I have worked in companies as a UNIX Admin that expected me to do my entire set of job functions from an NT Workstation with Putty. I'm sorry, that just seems wrong to me. Their excuse? "We need to be able to have a singular desktop for the entire company that has the ability to roll out updates and security fixes from the Administrator."
The point is, if you are working for a company where computers are in daily use, chances are Windows is there. Many corporations use Exchange for their email / calendar / project planning systems. There is no easy way to access these stores on a Mac. Even Microsoft's own Entourage doesn't come ready equipped to talk to Exchange, and needs fixes, and even a third party adapter. So Outlook needs to be run. Virtual PC has been in use for a while for just this reason. Because, let's face it, VPC didn't ever really do games well. It was to gain access to certain corp apps that "your" boss tells you that you must use.
As a disclaimer, I must tell you that I am an Apple share holder. I have only Macs in my home. However, at work, I must use an XP machine. No ifs, no ands, and certainly no buts. Though my management would not listen to this plea, there are those that can now go to their boss and say "I need a new laptop, this laptop comes in high in all marks and respects, is competitively priced and I can pick one up today that will let me even check our web page / graphics / whatever for Mac users." That can be an important sale point to a manager that only has the stipulation of "It must run Windows to interoperate."
"Genius may shine aloof and alone, like a star, but goodness is social, and it takes two men and God to make a Brother."
To prove that you can. A lot of Slashdot is about that. "Because you can" answers a lot of Slashdot questions. Why modify your case to look like a Borg cube? Why port Linux to your PDA?
Hacking is about curiosity, first and foremost. And there was a question out there...how much like a PC are the new x86 Macs? And running Windows on it answers the question with authority.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Great! Now we just need the final piece of the puzzle: something that will let me run that same installation of Windows as an OS X application, the same way OS X runs OS 9 on PPC Macs.
Because I need to run Windows apps occasionally during the day, but having to boot back and forth to do it would seriously suck.
I'm sure someone's working on it, and that someone is going to take a lot of sales from any future version of VirtualPC that will run on the MacIntels. (And that'll be what you deserve for dragging your feet, Microsoft.)
~Philly
Academic exercise? I would hope an academic would have a better grasp on the meaning of the word "first."
English is easier said than done.
For me, this would be the perfect solution. I am the lone hardware tech for a College (not counting student work study). I have to support both Windows and Mac OS. For me, having a laptop that will let me dual boot means I don't have to worry about grabbing the right bag, or having the right software on hand when I head out and make service calls. It also means that support for either OS is just a reboot away.
Yes, a geeky part of me wants to dual boot just because I can, but in my field, having a dual boot machine just makes sense. I can run the Mac for my day to day stuff, and launch Windows when we need to troubleshoot some odd scientific software package designed for DOS that they are still using (happens a lot more then people realize), or when I need to run specialized software like Datatel locally; as remote desktop has made that need even less of a need.
It also means that I have trimmed my office computer budget. One Mac Book Pro, although a little pricey, is much cheaper then an iBook and a Windows laptop ($1000 for the iBook, $1300 for the PC laptop we have stanardized on). $2300 total compared to the $1800 for my MBP.
Honestly, I think there are 3 camps of people.
1. Geeks who want to try this out
2. People like me, who could actually benefit from it
3. People who want the PC games
Of the above list, I think group 1 will tire of it quickly. Group 2 has the most to gain from this. Group 3 should really wait for DarWine or Qemu, but for the short term, this will work for them.
Just my $0.02
--nutz
First, dual boot is a myth, it is damn annoying and so counterproductive. Most people dont realise that until they actually experiment it, it's hype now, but all Linux users know it's a pain, and I know from experience that a dual boot Windows/Linux means one thing... Windows 90% of the time. Vmware and others solutions are the way to go for people who need Windows professionaly for a given application, I can't wait for a Mac OS X version. Second, some people try to makes us believe that companies will buy Apple PC to their employees now that they can run Windows, yeah right, serious manager will buy more expensive hardware, plus a Windows licence, so that their employees can have an Apple design and the joy of using Mac OS X out of the office... Lastly, Gamers, Well Windows users will probably not switch to Apple hardware to play, it's more expensive, and you'll get a better gaming PC for the price, hardcore gamers don't really care for Apple design, last time I checked it was more neon and see through glass panel...Seriously, You already have to be freaking rich to play seriously on laptop, do you think people will pay even more for an Apple on the back screen... I see this all thing as one big geek experiment, because it is what it is, mostly geek will do it, just because it is fun, but Apple geek will at the end stay under OS X, and Windows geek will soon realise they over paid their Windows laptop...
For someone like me who uses 75% mac and have to do a few PC things for work this is great. I travel a lot and I am about to go on my first roadshow in a week where I wont have to lug around 2 computers as I have been for the past 3 years. I have tried Virtual PC, Qemu and even remote desktop and nothing was ever a complete solution, this is. So all those asking why, thats why!
Who said this was ticking us off... Most of us WANT to run windows on our Intel macs simply so we can use what by all standards is a much superior operating system, but still run products made by companys who cant get their head out of their asses and make OS X builds. Same thing Linux users have been doing for ages.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Doesn't look like all of these drivers are working from here.
I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
How about "because I need to do development on both Mac OS X and Windows and I don't want to lug around two laptops"?
I'm getting so tired of this argument and I'm not sure why it's been modded funny. There are plenty of reasons putting windows on your mac is worthwhile. For work purposes you may want have to run some windows only applications which won't work under virtualization. For play you may want to boot up some games that are windows only. In academic settings you can buy one machine and tripple boot it (Windows/OSX/Linux). I know my school a lot of the labs already dual boot windows and linux.
Virtual PC would cost LESS and be a lot less trouble to get running too...
$VirtualPC+$Windows license > $Windows License
Do you get it?
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Yeah, that's right. Seriously. You'd think that after getting their questions answered, those guys would just know that there are indeed good reasons to run Windows on a Mac. It seems that there's just an endless supply of people who are unwilling to listen to good reason.
Anyway, having said that, let me say this one last time:
Some.
People.
NEED.
Windows.
Nobody's said that this is being done because Mac OS is inferior or anything of the sort. The only big reason is because there are people who are stuck on Windows boxes for work or other mission-critical applications that they simply cannot live without. Before you, for the so-manyth time, complain that this is nonsense and that people should just use Mac OS if the possibility exists, consider the fact that not everybody is as carefree as you and that there could be very good reasons that simply don't apply to you.
qemu has been ported to the Mactels, as is WinTel from openosx.com.
Of course, there's always Darwine as well.
The funny thing is, even sone Microsoft products are more complete on OSX than in Windows
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Next, how to mod your Porsche into a Toyota Camry.
Funny - but a terrible example.
Sure - a porsche looks cool, but if you're just going to the shops, its nicer to have a fuel range of 21 - 35 MPG rather then porsche's 17 - 25 MPG
I'd rather have a porsche, but if I could seamlessly degrade my porsche to a camry's performance to get the extra mileage, on occasion I would.
In just the same way, if I was forced to choose between os x & windows, I'd choose os x, but it would be nice to have a copy of windows hanging around in case I wanted to play some games.
My pics.
Yes, but i can't afford to have 2 computers (Or I don't want to take up the space, or some other excuse), and since I need windows sometimes, I have to have a windows machine. Now, If I can buy 1 computer that runs both Mac and windows, I'd be more likely to do so. I would buy a Mac just because I like it, not because of any specific piece of software.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
I asked this very question and the answer was a cagey "stay tuned for an announcement...". I suppose they could come back and say "no way, no how", but I see no reason why they wouldn't, short of some insurmountable technical hurdle, which given the miracles VMWare performs on a daily basis for me, doesn't seem likely.
:)
I think it'd be win-win for them...VirtualPC is now controlled by Microsoft and maybe they'll update it, maybe they won't, but VMWare has nothing to lose, and they have the better product as well. This could very well be one of the most killer apps for the Mac platform. Sad, but I'd rather take my Mac to work and run Windows under VMWare than use a POS Dell.
I'd say that getting VMWare would be the most popular app available on an Intel Mac after (maybe before) Office. Plus the fact that VMWare's guest OS can fill the screen when running locally, it's like dual booting but without the lack of stability.
Why would you want to buy a mac to run windows on it?
So you can play games, and then have a mac for everything that isn't a directX-required game.
Windows does ONE thing better than macs, and that is roping in game devellopers.
You can't take the sky from me...
You're aware that you're supposed to pay for your Windows license if you want to run Windows from within a Virtual PC or a VMWare station right?
"The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
As for SMP Apple released the dual processor Power Mac 9500 in 1995. They started using PCI around 1996.
"Well we all know how that turned out..."
Apparently not.
There are lots of third party codecs available for most other file formats. For xvid, try http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/17151 . WMV? Flip4Mac (which you can even get straight from microsoft now).
The average Mac user made a conscious choice to use a Mac rather than Windows. One popular argument to choose a Mac is because it's easier to use than Windows, so 'getting addicted to Windows' is not very likely for a Mac user.
Considering the fact that Windows defenders always point to the wide array of hardware that Windows has to run on vs. the controlled architecture of an Apple, this is a chance for Windows to prove how stable it can be.
This is not a joke. Now there is a solid user base comprised of known machines. The drivers, etc. can be optimized to that.
I personally like Windows XP, never got into Macs, but this could be an excellent solution (once its hardened a bit) for a stable machine. Just a thought.
The people dual booting OS X and Windows could end up with more stable windows installations than a Dell, and certainly more stable than a homebrew machine.
Don't take my word for it. Go ahead and try.
The only people who think VPC can work for a demanding FPS haven't actually tried to play one with it.
damaged by dogma
Good deal! There are thousands and thousands of software products that are only available on Windows, and now I can run them on my Mac!
For instance, Norton AntiVirus for Windows, Adware Destroyer Plus, and so many other titles only work well under Windows.
I am a Astrophysics Researcher, and the guys in our optic labs often have to use 3rd party instrumentation software that needs XP. This bugs them. We assume people aren't idiots. But our group can't afford to buy us laptops, only desktops. Really shitty desktops. WE have no problem with OUR laptops being connected to OUR network. We aren't morons.
This allows our people to buy themselves a mac laptop which they can use in unix mode, and then drop into XP when needed.
This is a easy, cheap and convenient solution to their needs.
http://skeptobot.blogspot.com/ - A site for the Renaissance man and woman
I know this may be considered silly, but: I don't care to run XP. I run Windows 2000, because I own legal copies, because the OS is rock solid, because it doesn't seem to vacuum up the viruses and spyware that XP does, it doesn't spy on my system and phone home to Redmond (oh, XP will, just give it time), and finally, 2000 doesn't shut itself off I change too many hardware components, and require me to beg Redmond to turn it back on. It just works. And I really don't care about games.
Is this massive knowledge base being built for installing XP applicable or adaptable to installing 2000 on the Mac? Drivers, yup. That would be a problem. But generally?
those are all fully licensed copies of windows right?
why? he asks, into the screaming wind...
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
This won't provide a simple or cheap way to run XP. You'll have to reinstall your system as dual boot and buy an XP license. Not something many people would do in order to play a game.
Take a look here http://osx86project.org/
It works, but it is very picky when it comes to hardware - mainly due to missing drivers.
If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
And then you can plug a Dell mouse and keyboard into it (which work perfectly, of course) and you've got a small, fast, quiet (mine is virtually silent even when running flat out) computer WITH cheap accessories!
To learn.
Remember how when you were younger, you tried different things just to see what they were like? And they you told your friends about it and they would try it too, just to see what it was like? Thats what life is STILL about. Learning, and being excited and helping others to learn. Although it sounds like you are too far along in your "comfortable adult" life to do anything that is outside of what you already do.
Listen to new bands. Ride a bike sometimes. Do not under any circumstances grow too old to try something new. "Why would do that?" should never be said about something that would not cause you or others harm. Its just a couple gigs of HD space.
Um, go check out the Apple Store. They released a new mini. Core Solo or Core Duo (so much for slow), optical audio in AND out, works great with USB and Firewire TV video capture devices, up to 120 GB 7200 RPM HD, very easy to add external Firewire or USB drives (costs you the price of the drive +$30 for a case), gigabyte ethernet, airport, Front Row and remote.
The only problem is the shared memory graphics, but that's irrelevant unless you want to play games. Seriously, it's a great computer for the price, particularly as a media/file/web/etc. server.
Do the Intel Macs have the virtualization hardware needed to run Xen properly?
I understand you need too keep your financial records accessible. However, myself, I would never let my data be tied up into a proprietary format.
13 years ago, that was the choice. There was no non-proprietary equivalent.
What happens if Quicken goes belly-up, or gets bought out, or any of a thousand other things that could happen to cause support for Quicken and/or its' current data formats to cease?
It's already happened - I use Quicken UK, and they've withdrawn from the UK market. But it doesn't matter to me - I use the 2002 Deluxe And Business Edition under an emulator Windows 2000, and the functionality is just the same. So long as a PC emulator exists, the software lives on.
I know that F/OSS tax/bookeeping software isn't as polished as its' Windows non-free brethren, but just the fact that I will always be able to access that data with whatever free and open-standard programs I wish to run makes up for the whistles and bells in my case.
Well...sort of. Free doesn't imply perpetual. I do agree with this point, but I'm more cautious in my backing for it. If a project dies, then whether the format was known or not doesn't really matter unless I'm prepared to pay a developer to get it imported into some new project, or do the work myself.
I understand the devil is in the details, and there may be certain details and facts of your situation that make switching to a more open solution extremely difficult or impossible at this time.
This is a key point - I've actually tried out many other packages to see if I could migrate away. None of them successfully imported my previous data files - they all got the balances wrong, the inter-account transfers wrong...nothing worked. Not even Quicken itself - the Mac version. So I'm a bit stuck at the moment, waiting for improvements and patiently filing bug reports.
I'd keep an eye on the major F/OSS tax/bookeeping software projects, and maybe even drop a forum post or an e-mail to the developers, stating what features/abilities/formats would be needed to be added or fixed to make using their software (and switching *away* from your current solution) more of a do-able, realistic task.
Absolutely, and that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm continuing to use Quicken 2002 under emulation, because it does the job and the job is rather important. But I'm not blindly following it - I do look around every so often to see if there's a place I can jump to.
Cheers,
Ian
I can see your point, but what happens when a given software company is looking at what platforms to write their software for, and sees a Mac user can easily boot / run Windows? Why are they going to pay a bunch of money for Mac developers when they know you'll just dual boot your Mac to run the Windows version?
At that point, why write OS X apps at all? Because it runs better or it has transparent windows? (sarcasm)Yeah, I'm sure software companies are going to fork over lots of money just to maintain an OS X codebase just for that...(/sarcasm) I would think many apps that might have been ported to the Mac or are currently maintained will dry up. This is good for the Mac user in the short term but ultimately hurt Apple in the long run.
Well...sort of. Free doesn't imply perpetual. I do agree with this point, but I'm more cautious in my backing for it. If a project dies, then whether the format was known or not doesn't really matter unless I'm prepared to pay a developer to get it imported into some new project, or do the work myself.
Actually, the pure F/OSS projects (as opposed to open projects that may use proprietary formats or libraries, or that have non-Free licensing terms) use open data format standards, which should make the data translatable or even straight-importable to another F/OSS application.
Also, you *do* have the source code, so you *can* modify it, or pay someone else to, if you desire. You don't have that option with closed-source, normally.
This is a key point - I've actually tried out many other packages to see if I could migrate away. None of them successfully imported my previous data files - they all got the balances wrong, the inter-account transfers wrong...nothing worked. Not even Quicken itself - the Mac version. So I'm a bit stuck at the moment, waiting for improvements and patiently filing bug reports.
Agreed, the state of migrational paths and tools is not all it could be, not helped at all by copyright, patent, DMCA, DRM, and other current IP control, regulation, and legislation.
Costs, labor, and time required to migrate make it a daunting task. On the plus side, the costs are generally one-time, with a minimally-costly and troublesome migration path from F/OSS app or platform to F/OSS app. or platform for future migrations.
I'd keep an eye on the major F/OSS tax/bookeeping software projects, and maybe even drop a forum post or an e-mail to the developers, stating what features/abilities/formats would be needed to be added or fixed to make using their software (and switching *away* from your current solution) more of a do-able, realistic task.
Absolutely, and that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm continuing to use Quicken 2002 under emulation, because it does the job and the job is rather important. But I'm not blindly following it - I do look around every so often to see if there's a place I can jump to.
Cheers,
Ian
Excellent! I'm a believer in F/OSS, but I'm not fanatical. There is a real world where people have priorities, responsibilities, and immediate needs that *have* to be dealt with.
With the fairly-rapid pace of development in the F/OSS world, I'm confident that (barring additional IP restrictions/legislation or anti-interoperative measures by the proprietary vendors) migrational paths will continue to improve.
Thanks for your insightful, balanced, and well-written response!
Cheers right back, and good luck!
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Hi all - could I make a tiny observation about all the "...but you are missing the point..." posts - its actually about choice - not whether one OS is 'better' than the other. If I choose to use Windows for something or other and MacOSX for something or other else, then why would anyone else need to take pseudo-moral umbrage? Choice is what the free market is all about. Now I have the choice, and can even have the choice as to whether I exercise my choice. So my meta-choice is what protects me from technological slavery and monopoly. I don't 'need' to or 'have' to or 'am required to' any more, I can choose to. Cheers