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Brits To Crash Test a Scramjet

hywel_ap_ieuan writes "The BBC is reporting that a the "Hyshot consortium" will be testing a scramjet called Hyshot III in Australia on Friday. The fun part: "If everything goes to plan, the experiment will begin at a height of 35 km. As the engine continues its downward path the fuel in the scramjet is expected to automatically ignite. The scientists will then have just six seconds to monitor its performance before the £1m engine eventually crashes into the ground.""

314 comments

  1. One million GBP? by JTD121 · · Score: 0

    WTF!? I didn't know that we had to crash things into the ground to test 'em.
    Why don't they just use a rocket like most of the scramjet tests have been?

    1. Re:One million GBP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That one crashed into the ground too.

    2. Re:One million GBP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      The third one burned down, fell over, then crashed into the ground. But the fourth one stayed up!

    3. Re:One million GBP? by tsotha · · Score: 4, Informative
      If you had RTFA, you would have seen this:

      However scramjets do not begin to work until they reach five times the speed of sound.

      All scramjets, including this one, use rockets to get the engine up to speed - scramjets don't work at subsonic speeds.

      They're trying to test an engine design here. Would you rather have them spend 200M building a whole craft to test an engine that's likely to be used only once? They're a long way from an anything that could actually be used for something practical, so cheapest is best as long as it moves the ball forward.

    4. Re:One million GBP? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but Australians aren't Brits, and to be specific, the scientists will have 29 seconds before the crash to examine data (6 seconds of actual burn starting at 35 miles, 23 seconds later the thing will plow into the ground). But it does start out on a rocket- they're dropping it from 100 miles up to get the proper speed for the scramjet to operate.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    5. Re:One million GBP? by qbwiz · · Score: 1

      Those crashed into the ocean anyway, so they might as well take advantage of gravity.

      --
      Ewige Blumenkraft.
    6. Re:One million GBP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ocean, actually, not that it makes a lot of difference when you're hitting it at Mach 6.

    7. Re:One million GBP? by oni · · Score: 1

      Well actually, the headline says 1m pounds, so wouldn't that be 1 milli-pound?

    8. Re:One million GBP? by Rei · · Score: 1

      All scramjets, including this one, use rockets to get the engine up to speed.

      Not this one.

      --
      People said I was dumb, but I proved them.
    9. Re:One million GBP? by ozmanjusri · · Score: 2, Informative
      Not only that, but Australians aren't Brits

      We're not, but the Qinetiq engine being tested tomorrow (supposed to be today, but delayed due to bad weather) is British.

      The HyShot program is an international effort coordinated by several Australian universities, but particularly the University of Queensland, with testing performed at Woomera rocket range in South Australia. In another four days, the Japanese Aerospace Exploration Agency (Jaxa) engine will be tested and in June, our own Australian Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DSTO) version will be fired up. That one's expected to go past Mach 10.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    10. Re:One million GBP? by tsotha · · Score: 1
      Hmmm... never even heard of this one. I stand corrected. I guess I should have said "all scramjets need some external propulsion to get the engine into its operating envelope".

      The picture is awesome, by the way.

    11. Re:One million GBP? by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      I've talked to a lead engineer on a NASA/DARPA scramjet project that hasn't made many headlines (intentionally.) There is a way to get a scramjet to develop thrust at 0 speed. I suspect it involves a very long tube that has a backwards-directed jet at the front, to make the air moving through the tube run at scramjet speeds. Once the thing gets off the ground and up to speed, they start injecting fuel at the front, where the jet is. The problem is that at these speeds you can't get the fuel and the air to mix sufficiently before they're out of the back of the craft, which necessitates long combustion/mixing paths (and use of hydrogen as a fuel because it disperses faster.) Once you have a long combustion path you might as well use the remainder of it, at low speeds.
      The person to whom I was speaking wouldn't answer *any* questions about developing thrust at 0 speed, but from the other questions I'd asked, I'd gotten a good feel of the geometry and design of the project, and I know that people have used jets to light up other jet and ramjet engines in the past.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    12. Re:One million GBP? by Tekzel · · Score: 1

      Only if it is 1/1000th of a pound (off my head, not 100% sure thats correct at the moment).

      1 million pounds would be 1 megapound? Something like that maybe.

    13. Re:One million GBP? by Tekzel · · Score: 1

      Ugh, I just realized I missed the point of your post. Making my response just plain stupid.

    14. Re:One million GBP? by tsotha · · Score: 1
      I guess I'm not understanding the setup you describe. Do you mean to say this very long tube is on the ground, and the scramjet moves through it until it reaches mach 5 or so, then exits the tube? That would have to be a really long tube, and very large in diameter to accomodate anything usefull. Also, I would think the thicker air would cause heat problems close to the ground once it left the tube.

      Or are you saying the other jet is attached to the front of the scramjet. That doesn't make sense to me, as all the oxygen would be gone from the air as it entered the scramjet.

    15. Re:One million GBP? by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      The latter: you fire one jet down the throat of the second jet. You run the first one significantly lean so that you're only burning a small fraction of the available oxygen, the remainder of which is burnt in the second jet. You use high pressure and, presumably, combustion chamber geometry or possibly even resonant pulses to make sure that the thrust from the first jet is primarily backwards, then constrict the duct to increase the speed to the point where the compression conditions are right for the second jet. Once you get the whole thing off the ground and moving at a reasonable rate, you stop injecting at the back and just inject at the front. Presumably you'd have to reconfigure your exhaust chamber geometry. He was not keen on giving me lots of details, but really wanted to talk about the project.

      By the way, piston engines only use a fraction of the oxygen from the air that passes through them, and turbofans used on commercial jetliners use maybe only 5% of the oxygen, if that. Pure turbojets use more of the available oxygen but not, as I recall, all of it.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    16. Re:One million GBP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, sorry you're talking out of your arse here. The scientists will record the 29 seconds
      of data, and they have as long as they like to examine it.

  2. They should pool resources by Locke2005 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Perhaps they could team up with some Earth Sciences researchers doing work on crater formation...

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:They should pool resources by KBAegis · · Score: 0

      I thought NASA gained enough information after they crashed a several million dollar martian sattelite into the ground because they forgot the difference between a yard and a meter . . .

    2. Re:They should pool resources by Syphtor · · Score: 1

      True, as in this article "Crashing down to earth near us, the future of jet travel" it's run by the University of Queensland, with funding from US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency and Australia's Defence, Science and Technology Organisation.

      --
      It's in that place where I put that thing that time
    3. Re:They should pool resources by Jozer99 · · Score: 2, Funny

      News report tomorrow:

      "Brist say: As we suspected, scramjets and crashing into earth don't mix." 

    4. Re:They should pool resources by Benzido · · Score: 3, Funny

      They could have skipped that and teamed up with some researchers doing work on *wings*.

    5. Re:They should pool resources by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      They're already pooling with their space division, reusing a lot of the technology from Beagle.

    6. Re:They should pool resources by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume you know that wasn't really the problem. The problem was repeated conversion introduced slight rounding errors wich compounded on the way to Mars.

      Not that that isn't a serious enough error, but you're just idiotically repeating lies.

    7. Re:They should pool resources by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, they should team up with a church or two. It's a perfect example of "intelligent falling".

    8. Re:They should pool resources by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      Hey. This is nothing. The Brits are planning to stick a ramjet onto an air-to-air missile. I mean, come on, that's cool, right?

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    9. Re:They should pool resources by redline452 · · Score: 1

      isn't it obvious:
      Iceland To Drill Hole Into Volcano http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/2 7/1149253

  3. Weapon? by Dr.+Eggman · · Score: 0

    Are they testing a Scramjet or a new Bunker-buster?

    --
    Demented But Determined.
    1. Re:Weapon? by Dmack_901 · · Score: 1, Funny

      Heck at Mach 7.6 it's probably enough to smash an atom. Just duct tape some uranium to the tip and off you go.

    2. Re:Weapon? by NeoThermic · · Score: 2, Funny

      You would have to use something other than ducktape. As we all know, ducktape is sufficent to contain a nuclear explosion!

      NeoThermic

      --
      Use my link above, or to view my server, NeoThermic.com
  4. The best kind of Science! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    All expeirements should end in some kind of explosion! What good is being a scienctist if you don't get to blow shit up?!?

    1. Re:The best kind of Science! by CarpetShark · · Score: 1
      All expeirements should end in some kind of explosion! What good is being a scienctist if you don't get to blow shit up?!?


      You must be thinking of computer science ;)
    2. Re:The best kind of Science! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would not consider the Windows development team to be computer scientists, but a bunch of hacks. ;)

      AC because dorks with no sense of humor will mod this as troll or flamebait. :(

    3. Re:The best kind of Science! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess you're an English major? May be time for spell checker in Slashdot.

    4. Re:The best kind of Science! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Troll...

      And I made sure to look up how to spell that word correctly for your snobby typo pouncing ass...

    5. Re:The best kind of Science! by iamlucky13 · · Score: 1

      Actually, as a test engineer I can tell you, the one necessary element of any decent experiment is a big red button. Explosions and chaos are optional.

  5. Pilot's motto: by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Funny
    Old pilot's motto: "Airspeed, altitude or brains. Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight."

    > "If everything goes to plan, the experiment will begin at a height of 35 km. As the engine continues its downward path the fuel in the scramjet is expected to automatically ignite. The scientists will then have just six seconds to monitor its performance before the £1m engine eventually crashes into the ground."

    Revised for 2006: "We'll settle for one out of three these days... as long as you have a hell of a lot of it to compensate."

    1. Re:Pilot's motto: by LunaticTippy · · Score: 4, Funny
      OK, we've got 35km. Altitude, check.

      Scramjet pointed straight down. Airspeed, check.

      Getting paid to destructively test a million pound device, wow. That'd be so cool. Brains, check.

      Looks like they've got 3/3.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    2. Re:Pilot's motto: by mctk · · Score: 4, Funny
      Old pilot's motto: "Airspeed, altitude or brains. Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight."

      New pilot's motto: "Always review the flight plan before committing to a mission."

      --
      Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
    3. Re:Pilot's motto: by buraianto · · Score: 2, Funny

      A million pounds? That's about 450,000 kilograms for you metric folks. I thought they used metric in Britain.

    4. Re:Pilot's motto: by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      My discount yugoslavian keyboard doesn't have that funky L-lookin' "pound sterling" key mmmkay? Plus, I bet slashcode doesn't let it through anyway. I'll give one Euro to the first reply showing me that symbol.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    5. Re:Pilot's motto: by hotdiggitydawg · · Score: 1

      You mean this one?

            £

      Real tricky... £

    6. Re:Pilot's motto: by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      £ There, I cut and pasted it.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    7. Re:Pilot's motto: by David+Horn · · Score: 1

      Old pilot's motto: "Airspeed, altitude or brains. Two are always needed to successfully complete the flight."

      New pilot's motto: "Always review the flight plan before committing to a mission."

      New New Pilot's Motto: A volunteer is someone who didn't understand the question.

      --
      PocketGamer.org - For the gamer on the go!
    8. Re:Pilot's motto: by bryhhh · · Score: 1
      You could have cheated and used the html representation of a pound symbol
      £
      Or in my case just press [shift]+[3]
    9. Re:Pilot's motto: by bryhhh · · Score: 1
      Oh wait, just checked the HTML...
      £ There, I cut and pasted it.
      You did cheat.
    10. Re:Pilot's motto: by alder · · Score: 1
      I thought they used metric in Britain.

      Metric pounds?..

    11. Re:Pilot's motto: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Pounds Sterling. About 2.5M AUD.

    12. Re:Pilot's motto: by kwark · · Score: 1

      Yes, 1 pound in the metric system is 0.5kg just like 1 ounce equals 0.1kg, (atleast in dutch) these are leftovers (adjusted to metric) from a time before S.I. became standard.

    13. Re:Pilot's motto: by iphayd · · Score: 1

      Getting a million pound device 35Km into the air in the first place is a real technological feat.

      Dropping it is not.

      Oh, you mean British Pounds.

      At least we aren't talking about coconuts and swallows.

    14. Re:Pilot's motto: by zippthorne · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      And this is the problem with the metric system. It's all high and mighty as superior, but it's got all these damn legacy units to be compatable with whatever came before. I swear if I read another journal in which the phrase "kilograms of force" is used, i'll stop reading and chuckle to myself smugly and then continue reading maybe.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    15. Re:Pilot's motto: by edgr · · Score: 1

      Its actually going up to around 600km. They just start the experiment at 35km because then it is already going around about mach 7. So the scramjet kicks in and accelerates it from a starting point of mach 7 until it hits the ground.

    16. Re:Pilot's motto: by somersault · · Score: 1

      then just as it's about to hit the ground it achieves sentience *suddenly realises that's a blatant ripoff of something else* oh nevermind.. I was going to suggest that it was smart enough to develope wings =p I guess the researchers here would rather it crashed into the ground near to them, than flew at mach 9 or whatever in a random direction.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    17. Re:Pilot's motto: by rufty_tufty · · Score: 1

      You probably mean Pounds Stirling (I'f you're referring to the monetary unit)

      British Pounds could just as well mean the unit of weight that I think you're trying to discriminate it from (since the normal term for those units are imperial - I think Pounds are origonallly an english measure - hence the phrase Imperial or Metric to denote what units you prefer to work in). I think American pounds came later and are the same weight, even if the definition of things like gallons differ.

      Please correct me if I'm wrong

      --
      "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
    18. Re:Pilot's motto: by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I guess the researchers here would rather it crashed into the ground near to them, than flew at mach 9 or whatever in a random direction.

      How very noble of them. I'd rather have million pounds of metal fly at random direction than crash on me at Mach 9, but I guess I'm just being selfish ;).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    19. Re:Pilot's motto: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, /. just does appropriate transformations on input for certain chars, OP probably did cut'n'paste into text field, sent to server as appropriate iso-8859-1 char or whatever, then /.'s horrible mess o' perl translated to html entity ref. Simple.

      Don't attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by perl.

  6. not the right way to start by blastard · · Score: 5, Funny
    Somehow, paving "the way for ultrafast, intercontinental air travel" by crashing your very first example does not sound like the way you want to start things off.

    Then again, the British did usher in the passener jet age with the Comet.

    1. Re:not the right way to start by gjuk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be fair - the Comet was revolutionary in many ways - especially being the first commercial jet airliner. The metal fatigue which caused it to crash was not known about until the crashes. First mover disadvantage. Because the British investigated the crashes so thoroughly, subsequent airliners could ensure they weren't prone to the issue. A great shame that DeHavilland did all the work and a bunch of people died for Boeing to benefit.

    2. Re:not the right way to start by rilister · · Score: 3, Informative

      err. more importantly, the freakin' jet engine!
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Whittle

      entertainingly, the new US show "American Inventor" credited the invention of the motor car and the computer to the Americans last week. doooooh!

      meanwhile, this scramjet isn't even by the brits, it the aussies. It's being reported by the BBC, hence the confusion

      --
      'This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it' - Eeyore
    3. Re:not the right way to start by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Right, because Boeing was the first organization in history to learn from the (fatal) mistakes of others.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    4. Re:not the right way to start by rilister · · Score: 1

      ok, so my brain wasn't on right. It is the Brits. Sorry to all offended Brits.

      --
      'This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it' - Eeyore
    5. Re:not the right way to start by 2sheds · · Score: 1

      No, RTFA; the scramjet on this launch is designed by Qinetiq (stupid bloodly name - pronounced Kinetic; the privatised version of the old British DERA - Defense Evaluation Research Agency). Each Hy launch, managed by the University of Queensland, carries a different design from one of the participating international agencies.

      --

      Absit Invidia
    6. Re:not the right way to start by Basehart · · Score: 1

      No problem.

    7. Re:not the right way to start by AJWM · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A great shame that DeHavilland did all the work and a bunch of people died for Boeing to benefit.

      They weren't the first, although Boeing did do a lot of early work.

      During WW-II Boeing thoroughly analyzed the bombers that returned shot up from missions, noting carefully where the damage was. Then they improved the design of the places where the damage wasn't*, because planes which had been damaged there obviously hadn't made it back.

      (* For the pedantic, in some cases they made the design change elsewhere, e.g. putting redundant systems in a different place. Douglas didn't learn that lesson until a DC-10 cargo door tore loose, simultaneously ripping all three "redundant" hydraulic lines to the tail because they routed through the same area.)

      --
      -- Alastair
    8. Re:not the right way to start by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buckaroo Bonzai could do it, so could you!

    9. Re:not the right way to start by blastard · · Score: 1

      Laugh while you can Monkey Boy!

    10. Re:not the right way to start by Boronx · · Score: 1

      A fisherman reported seeing the plane crash into the sea, south of Elba

      Napolean really knows how to hold a grudge.

    11. Re:not the right way to start by Planesdragon · · Score: 0

      entertainingly, the new US show "American Inventor" credited the invention of the motor car and the computer to the Americans last week. doooooh!

      The automobile is one of those trophy inventions that every country would like to take credit for and no one country really can. Considering that Henry Ford made it practical with the assembly line, I think we've got at least as much claim as the frenchmen who made an off-road steam engine or the British who poked around with internal combustion.

      And as for the computer -- The first real implementation of non-human computers was the company that would become IBM for the American Census of 1890.

    12. Re:not the right way to start by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Umm...

      According to this poster, Babbage never happened. And the claim that Ford made the car 'practical' is rubbish - there was a whole auto industry in existence well before Ford. America has no claim whatsoever in this area.

      The minute I hear someone talking about "the first 'real' ... or the first 'practical' ...", I know that it's an American trying to claim credit for someone else's invention.

      The most famous example is the Wright Brothers. Ignoring the massive contributions by George Cayley, Wenham, Santos-Dumont and the rest, the Americans pretend that the Wrights somehow
      invented flying out of nothing.

      The joke is that the Wrights invention was a dead end in aerodynamic terms. The Flyer's design was unstable, not scaleable, very difficult to rig, and had no influence at all on later developments. Europe led in all the early work. The only lasting contribution the Wrights made was to close American aircraft design down with patent wars, so that when WW1 started the US was forced to buy French aircraft.

      Knowing this, I have difficulties suppressing laughter every time I read another American web site claiming that air travel is an all-American invention.

      Americans did invent some things, though vastly fewer that they claim. Why isn't more made of the transistor? Though knowing how Bardeen, Brattain and Shockley fought about that perhaps it's best that they keep it quiet!

    13. Re:not the right way to start by sbryant · · Score: 3, Informative

      The automobile is one of those trophy inventions that every country would like to take credit for and no one country really can. Considering that Henry Ford made it practical with the assembly line, I think we've got at least as much claim as the frenchmen who made an off-road steam engine or the British who poked around with internal combustion.

      Actually, it would seem that the Germans can quite legitimately take credit for the car. Three people in particular are responsible for inventing the major components of the car engine: Gottlieb Daimler, Wilhelm Maybach and Karl Benz. They had a whole automobile industry on the go before Henry Ford streamlined the production process (1913). Ford did do a great deal to make cars much more popular, but he was more an industrialist than an inventor.

      The French industry was based largely on designs by Maybach, and I'm not sure that the English had very much to do with the internal combustion engine used in cars - the valve gear came from George Stephenson (the Englishman who also invented the steam engine), but the use of petroleum, the injection system, accelerator and so on were all developed by the three Germans. We do, of course, have to thank the English for pneumatic inflatable tyres (some guy by the name of John Dunlop, in particular) - without which, we'd have a very bumpy ride.

      -- Steve

    14. Re:not the right way to start by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      John Smallberries?

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    15. Re:not the right way to start by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Informative

      The British Comet investigation is regularly held up as the start of Air Accident Investigation procedures that are used to this very day. Plus the DC-10 Sioux City incident involved the engine 3 fanblade disintegrating and severing all three hydraulics lines, not a cargo door. There was also a second incident involving a DC-10 and hydraulics, when the left hand engine of one was ripped off on takeoff, which also severed all hydraulics in the left hand wing, resulting in the droops retracting and the aircraft stalling on the left side, resulting in a crash.

    16. Re:not the right way to start by FroMan · · Score: 1

      Imagine that, some brit thinks of comfort!?! Who would have ever thought that'd be possible.

      --
      Norris/Palin 2012
      Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
    17. Re:not the right way to start by 2sheds · · Score: 1

      > the valve gear came from George Stephenson (the Englishman who also invented the steam engine)

      Right country, wrong guy - see Richard Trevithick. Though Stephenson was of course a hugely important engineer - most famously for Rocket (which famously won the Rainhill trials), but don't forget that most railways in the world still use 1435mm Stephenson gauge rails.

      --

      Absit Invidia
    18. Re:not the right way to start by basingwerk · · Score: 1

      The DeHavilland factory at Broughton, Wales, is still up and running, making the Airbus. Boeing did all that work on the 747 for (what's become of) DeHavilland to benefit.

      --
      I stole this .sig
    19. Re:not the right way to start by Planesdragon · · Score: 1

      The most famous example is the Wright Brothers. Ignoring the massive contributions by George Cayley, Wenham, Santos-Dumont and the rest, the Americans pretend that the Wrights somehow invented flying out of nothing.

      In essence, they did. I know that it hurts European pride to realize that we're so much better that you, but you're just going to have to accept it.

      It's one thing to make what is just a very large and very expensive paper airplane. It's something else to make a lighter-than-air vessel. And it's something almost completely different to make a heaver-than-air vehicle that can actually gain altitude.

      The guy on the line of invention that actually makes something that works is the guy that gets the credit. And America is very, very good at doing that last step. (From Democracy to the Moon landing, the US took someone else's idea and made it actually work.)

    20. Re:not the right way to start by arwel · · Score: 1

      We do, of course, have to thank the English for pneumatic inflatable tyres (some guy by the name of John Dunlop, in particular) - without which, we'd have a very bumpy ride.

      Err, as everybody knows John Boyd Dunlop was Scottish, not English!

    21. Re:not the right way to start by Hittite+Creosote · · Score: 1

      John Dunlop was Scottish, not English!

    22. Re:not the right way to start by Sigg3.net · · Score: 1

      Because the British investigated the crashes so thoroughly

      It's got nothing to do with thoroughness. Brits always sit down to have a cup of tea and watch the on-going cricket match. They were probably serving some chocolate chip cookies when someone tripped over the crucial evidence.

      After all, that's how they won WWII. They were making an intercontinetal transmission device so that the Commonwealth could watch cricket in-between air raids, when someone accidentally found out it could be used to spot airplanes. It became the radar.
      Newton defined the gravitational laws to help out his favourite tennis team.

      I know, I've been to the UK, and watched the changing of the guards.
      They had this little goat with the royal emblem.

    23. Re:not the right way to start by tgrigsby · · Score: 1

      Aussies, Brits, Irish, Scots.... Whatever, you all look the same to me...

      --
      *** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
    24. Re:not the right way to start by AJWM · · Score: 1

      You're probably right about the DC-10, I may be confusing it with another accident. The basic point holds, however -- routing your "redundant" systems through the same spot renders them vulnerable to a single point failure if that failure is unexpected mechanical damage.

      --
      -- Alastair
    25. Re:not the right way to start by Muchsake · · Score: 1

      Dont you Canadians realise Dunlop was a Scot not English.

  7. Just use NASA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to do the monitoring. They'll confuse feet with meters and the thing will smash into the ground in no time.

    1. Re:Just use NASA by DrSkwid · · Score: 2, Funny

      Imagine the consequences if they confused meters with metres !

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  8. Not the Brits by wombatmobile · · Score: 2, Informative

    ScramJet is the work of Australians Ray Stalker and Allan Paull who achieved the phenomenon with a budget of tins cans, string and glue whilst Nasa failed with a team of hundreds and a 9 figure budget.

    1. Re:Not the Brits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      who achieved the phenomenon with a budget of tins cans, string and glue

      I built my first scramjet out of an old coffee can, some ductape, and a broken hair dryer.

      Isn't Australia a prison colony? They let the inmates play with explosives there? That may not be the best idea...

    2. Re:Not the Brits by JesseL · · Score: 0

      Not to mention that this appears to be a five year old dupe:
      http://slashdot.org/science/01/02/22/2113206.shtml

      (I only remember that thread because I got my first socre 5 comment there)

      --
      "Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
    3. Re:Not the Brits by Syphtor · · Score: 1

      True, as in this article "Crashing down to earth near us, the future of jet travel" it's run by the University of Queensland, with funding from US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency and Australia's Defence, Science and Technology Organisation.

      --
      It's in that place where I put that thing that time
    4. Re:Not the Brits by Syphtor · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not a dupe, they're testing Hyshot 4, Hyshot 2 (in July 2002) was the world's first scramjet to be successfully tested. (and the one built out of bits and bobs)

      --
      It's in that place where I put that thing that time
    5. Re:Not the Brits by AeroIllini · · Score: 3, Informative
      Not to mention that this appears to be a five year old dupe

      Not a dupe. They tried this 5 years ago and it didn't work. Now they're trying it again.

      FTA:

      It is the first of three test flights planned for this year by the international Hyshot consortium.

      The first Hyshot engine was launched in 2001 but the test flight failed when the rocket carrying the engine flew off course.
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    6. Re:Not the Brits by Haeleth · · Score: 4, Informative

      ScramJet is the work of Australians Ray Stalker and Allan Paull who achieved the phenomenon with a budget of tins cans, string and glue

      RTFA: "The scramjet engine, known as Hyshot III, has been designed by British defence firm Qinetiq."

      There's this concept called "international collaboration". It's not actually impossible for a project to involve people from more than one country. Yes, and one of the Australians you name is in charge. But the scramjet engine that's being tested on Friday was designed by the British. A few days later they'll be testing another one that was designed in Japan. After that, there's an Australian-designed one lined up too.

      We're talking big money international collaboration here. Stalker and Paull aren't working with a budget of tin cans any more.

    7. Re:Not the Brits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Isn't Australia a prison colony?

      If you're a yank - so was the us.

      If you're a pom - your ex-prison is kicking your ass at your games.

      (for the lazy:
      1 Australia @171
      2 England @81)
      If you're someone else... well you're just jealous :-)
    8. Re:Not the Brits by AeroIllini · · Score: 4, Informative

      Nasa failed with a team of hundreds and a 9 figure budget.

      The first much-ballyhooed flight may have failed (because the Pegasus rocket exploded, not because of a problem with the scramjet), but the Hyper-X program is considered a rousing success, with two successful hypersonic flights and a new jet-powered speed record of Mach 9.6.

      That being said, I applaud the efforts of the University of Queensland, who is helping push the limits of aerospace knowledge. If they can do that on a shoestring budget, then that's all the better.

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    9. Re:Not the Brits by sane? · · Score: 1
      Nope. These Hyshot tests are collaborative exercises between a number of participants. This particular test has a UK (QinetiQ) Scramjet design, boosted up to velocity via an Aussie rocket. Past tests have had other designs, including an Aussie built scramjet. The Australian press tests to big up the Aussie element, which is why you can tend to miss the reality of the international nature of the work.

      You're right about them doing quite a lot with very little though. Other thing to bear in mind is its more about missiles than passenger aircraft.

    10. Re:Not the Brits by TDRighteo · · Score: 1
      To elaborate further, the Hyshot program is actually based out of the University of Queensland, (ie. Australia) and is very much NOT a British program. If anything, it's international. Yes, QinetiQ is a partner and did help, but the BBC isn't doing anything new by touting the local (to it) firm's part in things. The UQ website also notes USAF and CAF involvement.

      To quote from a SpaceDaily article at the time of the last test:

      The Hyshot Consortium partners include Astrotech Space Operations, DTI and GASL, QinetiQ, NASA Langley Research Center, Seoul National University, the DLR (German Aerospace Center), NAL (National Aerospace lab. Japan), AFRL (Air Force Research Laboratory, USA), Australian Space Research Institute (ASRI), Institute of Engineers Australia (IEAust), UniQuest and the Australian Department of Defence. Australian firms, Alesi Technologies, NQEA, AECA, Luxfer Australia and Jet Air Cargo, and BAE Systems Australia are also involved.

      So, next time the BBC reports on something that's happening outside America, I hope somebody will do some research before they base the headline on the leading paragraphs.

      Note: I'm a UQ past student (had Allan Paull as a first year subject coordinator) and employee, so I'm not short on local perspective/bias here.

    11. Re:Not the Brits by PigIronBob · · Score: 1

      Who cares, I know UQ does a lot in the Scramjet area, The Poms most likely do as well, but by the time it's all said and done and these babies are common place, the Yanks will take the credit anyway!

      --
      You never catch me alive
    12. Re:Not the Brits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're a yank - so was the us.

      No no no, the brits sent all the convicts over to your country, and they sent all the depressed gun totting millitant religious wackos (later spelled Waco) over to my country. Your country started out as a prision colony, and mine a dumping grounds for unwanted religious cults... yay history!

    13. Re:Not the Brits by nizo · · Score: 2, Funny

      My first thought when reading your response was, "wait, they failed to crash their jet into the ground?"

    14. Re:Not the Brits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      The article is blatantly incorrect and Haeleth is uninformed. The design of all four scramjet engines (two launched a few years ago and two in the next few days) is completely by the Hyshot team based at the University of Queensland in Brisbane). The rockets carrying all four scramjets are provided by US defence company DTI. The "international collaboration" (including the contributions of Qinetq and JAXA) is in the form of providing cash.

      Hyshot I flew off course due to the rocket's fins being damaged during takeoff (long before the scramjet got to fire). Eventually the payload was found, the cause confirmed, and permission given to launch Hyshot II.

      Hyshot II was the first ever successful scramjet flight, beating NASA, which had spent many many times more money on their project. Since then the project has received a lot more financial support for interested agencies around the world, and the team is in the process of coming under the control of the Australian Defence Science and Technology Organisation (and leaving UQ).

      Hyshot III was scheduled to launch today (Friday) but has been pushed back to tomorrow (Saturday). It's largely a repeat of Hyshot II to satisfy the various funding sources that it's "real", although there are some changes to the engine as well.

      Hyshot IV is scheduled to launch on Tuesday and is similar again but specifically for the Japanese to observe, although the Americans will be there as well.

      Ray Stalker was a pioneer of hypersonic research but has been retired for a while now. Credit for the development of these engines goes to the likes of Allan Paull, Hans Alesi, Myles Frost and everybody else in the shed at Pinjarra Hills.

    15. Re:Not the Brits by wjsroot · · Score: 1

      Why not RTFA? The post you are responding to was talking about a previous attempt not the newest one. So how about reading the article before you tell people to read the article?

      --
      Mod others as you would have them mod you.
    16. Re:Not the Brits by DroppedPacket · · Score: 1
      Well remember, flying is just throwing yourself at the ground and missing.

      (Thanks to Douglas Adams for that...)

      --
      I am not a resource! I am a free man!
    17. Re:Not the Brits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it became the most successful country in the world.

      That's right! Just look at our list of recent accomplishments:

      -We won the war in Iraq and our troops have all come home safely
      -Everyone in our country has a job, no problems with our ecconomy!
      -Social Security is more secure than ever
      -We caught and killed Osama Bin Laden
      -We have more freedoms than ever, and don't need to worry about our government spying on our phone calls
      -China is not buying up all of our businesses any more

      Oh wait, never mind...

      Perhaps it is falling on its face now because of all you atheist twits.

      I'm sorry, you must have me confused with someone who follows a belief system that teachs them to intentionaly be ignorant, not ask questions, and "just beleive".

      That must be the same mentality you used when you voted for GW the second time around. Even though he screwed you with his first 4 years of failures, you just keep beleiving! You are a genius!

      Yay ignorance! Isn't it awesome? Praise the lord n stuff!

      Oh, I should point out to you (though you will probably ignore this because it is a fact and you are not good with those) that our recent failings are all under the leadership of a VERY religious president. So your comment about atheists being responsible for any recent failures is just retarded, your religious right wing republican buddies have majority control and you only have THEM to blame right now!

    18. Re:Not the Brits by Dunbal · · Score: 0, Troll

      If they can do that on a shoestring budget, then that's all the better.

            And Australian beer! Let's not forget the beer! Much better than that american rat's p...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    19. Re:Not the Brits by MisterQ · · Score: 1

      I have met and spoken with Allan Paull (here in Brisbane) on a number of occassions. THese guys are leading the field, in several other aspects - "wind tunnnels" simulations, and guidance systems.

      He did point out that in their earlier tests, it wasn't so much a matter of forming a crater on impact. The earth would fossilize on impact, and become rock hard, and make it almost impossible to remove the rocket...

      q

    20. Re:Not the Brits by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1
      The first Hyshot engine was launched in 2001 but the test flight failed when the rocket carrying the engine flew off course.
      Did this rocket with scramjet end up inside a certain pentagon-shaped building? It would explain a lot.
    21. Re:Not the Brits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, of course, the Limeys, Yanks, Canucks, Cobbers, Kiwis, Jocks, Paddys and the rest were all Brits originally. That's the sort of thing that really pisses off the French.

      And string, tin cans and glue are actually the best way of marching into the unknown. A budget of billions needs a beancounter mentality, and lots of accountants, with regimented business plans.

      A good example was the recent Thrust-SSC world record. Chronically under its shoestring budget, three or four blokes, one leader, and a retired aerodynamicist living in a cottage managed to push a car past Mach 1 on the ground, and do it stably. This is probably a harder problem than getting a Scramjet to fly at Mach 10.

    22. Re:Not the Brits by sane? · · Score: 1
      Not sure who gave you an informative mod but your wrong. The design and built of THIS shot is QinetiQ's, the next is Japan, etc.

      That's why its a collaboration, everyone's ideas go to make it work and get tested. There is no way just money would be provided by the teams involved. Hyshot III is not just a rehash of Hyshot II - its quite different.

      "Our engine has a lower combustor entry temperature than the UQ design with less compression of the captured air. This has the advantage of lower intake losses but the disadvantage that it is difficult to get the fuel to ignite and burn. "The QinetiQ prototype is cylindrical with four combustors around the outside. The aerodynamics of the vehicle is improved by this arrangement but it wasn't cheap to manufacture. It was cast from stainless steel where as the UQ engine was assembled from copper plates."

      Try reading up at this page.

    23. Re:Not the Brits by iamlucky13 · · Score: 1

      The problem with you uneducated foreign yokels is that when you think American beer, you think of Budweiser and Coors. Obviously, however, while these are shockingly popular drinks in the US, they are not beers (in fact, Budweiser is more of a form of week rice wine than a malt beverage). For real American beers, try the micro and specialty brews from a plethora of smaller brewing companies spread accross the US, especially the Pacific NW.

      The real problem is too many people think they can safely fly hypersonic aircraft after downing a few pints, leading to unusual crater formations in Queensland.

  9. I know nothing about this stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    and that will be obvious after my question........

    but couldn't they build it to survive impact into the ocean, and then retrieve it?

    I seem to remember the US space program doing this when they first went to the moon. And that man who singlehandedly built the rocket and went to the moon. What was his name? Apollo Creed? Anyways Tom Hanks was really great in that movie. Forest Gump I think it was.

    1. Re:I know nothing about this stuff by Lead+Butthead · · Score: 3, Informative

      At the speed the craft is traveling, crashing into a body of water isn't that different from crashing into a concrete wall. To allow the craft to survive, it has to decelerate first.

      --
      ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
    2. Re:I know nothing about this stuff by monkeymanatwork · · Score: 2, Informative

      At those speeds, we don't have any materials that will survive impact with the ocean. In fact, the Shuttle Solid Rocket Boosters, when they parachute gently into the ocean, sustain considerable damage to the aft end (nozzle & stuff IIRC). It's worth it to salvage the casings.

      Yes, I am a rocket scientist (well, I used to be).

    3. Re:I know nothing about this stuff by Moofie · · Score: 1

      At Mach 7, ocean is indistinguishable from ground.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    4. Re:I know nothing about this stuff by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "couldn't they build it to survive impact into the ocean, and then retrieve it?"

      Why spend the money to land it safely and retreive it? What would you do with it? There is no need to fly it again they already did the test. There are no plans to fly a second test with the same hardware they will do that with other hardware. Also, and more importently an aircraft that can fly at both hypersonic and slower speeds is _much_ more complex then one that can fly at only one speed

  10. Crash! by Colgate2003 · · Score: 5, Funny
    From the article

    On its descent the engine is expected to reach a top speed of Mach 7.6 or over 9,000km/ hour.

    I think crash is a bit of an understatement!

    1. Re:Crash! by techno-vampire · · Score: 3, Funny
      I think crash is a bit of an understatement!

      How right you are! I'd expect something more like an Earth-Shattering KABOOM!

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    2. Re:Crash! by wtansill · · Score: 1
      How right you are! I'd expect something more like an Earth-Shattering KABOOM!
      Not unless they had an Illudium Q-38 Explosive Space Modulator(tm)!
      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
    3. Re:Crash! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a crash, it's called 'Controlled Flight into Terrain".

    4. Re:Crash! by boomfart · · Score: 1

      I'd say hard landing, it is after all a controlled decent to the ground

    5. Re:Crash! by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 1

      I bet afterwarts the celebrate the test with pancakes! Well, I would...

    6. Re:Crash! by pocketstheclown · · Score: 1

      The explosion will be Scram-tastic!

    7. Re:Crash! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd say hard landing

      Yeah, hard like my...

      nah, I'm too ashamed to finish that sentence.

  11. Not the first time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This has been done before, at Woomera test range. The University of Queensland launched HyShot in 2002, and had a major success.

    http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/hyshot/default. htm

  12. you know... by heatdeath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    i realize everyone thinks they're cute by making cracks about how we don't want to test planes by crashing them, but it's actually pretty awesome that we're to the point where we can get all of the info we need about in-flight stuff in just 6 seconds, and that we don't have to worry about making the plane able to land in order to test the engine. it should speed up development time, and who knows, maybe a plane flight to tokyo won't put you in danger of deep vein thrombosis. =p

    good job, brits.

    --
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    1. Re:you know... by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

      You won't have time to worry about a DVT - I believe hearing the captain saying "Ladies and gentlemen, you have 6 secon&^£%&^£$&^[NO CARRIER]

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    2. Re:you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...maybe a plane flight to tokyo won't put you in danger of deep vein thrombosis

      I am flying from Osaka to Tokyo every week for five years and I'm still healthy!

    3. Re:you know... by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      a plane flight to tokyo won't put you in danger of deep vein thrombosis.

            Sure blame the plane flight for DVTs. I mean, forget about the fact you weight 300 lbs (around the same as your cholesterol level), smoke, take birth control pills and are diabetic. It's the plane trip that caused it...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:you know... by dbIII · · Score: 1
      it's actually pretty awesome that we're to the point where we can get all of the info we need about in-flight stuff in just 6 seconds
      With the shock tunnel scramjet tests these guys were happy to have tests that lasted microseconds.
    5. Re:you know... by evilviper · · Score: 1
      Sure blame the plane flight for DVTs. I mean, forget about the fact you weight 300 lbs (around the same as your cholesterol level), smoke, take birth control pills and are diabetic. It's the plane trip that caused it...

      When some criminal shoots you in the arm, and you die of a heart-attack, they get charged with murder. You are responsible for problems you cause, irregardless of such contributing factors.

      Personally, I'd be more comfortable being loaded into an airplane in a coffin, rather than a coach seat... Probably less risk that way too.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:you know... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      OTOH, perhaps they shouldn't be flying at all?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:you know... by timq · · Score: 0

      [...] how we don't want to test planes by crashing them [...]

      I do not think this method of propulsion is ever intended to be used in a plane. The only thing where it makes sense is in a missile, evading interception on the final part of the flight trajectory. ("Makes sense" in as far as missiles this deadly make sense in the first place of course).

    8. Re:you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When some criminal shoots you in the arm, and you die of a heart-attack, they get charged with murder. You are responsible for problems you cause, irregardless of such contributing factors.

      Wow, this is wrong on a few levels, where to begin?

      I guess I will start with your anology. You are trying to compare an activity that someone voluntarily does (flying on a plane) to an involuntary action (being shot is typically involuntary, heh). Second, from a legal stand point, intent is always considered. If the person did not intend to kill, only do injury by shooting in the arm, then it would probably be man slaughter and not murder.

      Then there is the idea of companies being responsible for the decisions their customers make, which really is part of a bigger problem in the modern world that is growing. And that problem is people not taking full responsibility for their own actions. Lots of people want to blame fast food for their ass being fat, or cigarettes for their getting cancer, or movies and video games for violence.

      This mentality is one of the major problems with the world today. The rise of complex legal systems has allowed people to start pawning off responsibility and making money in the process!

      If some fat ass does something that's bad for their body, but NOT regular heathly people, that is their own fault! If they choose to chug down three buggers, two large fries, and a giant soda everyday for lunch it is their own fault for being fat, not McDonalds! If they are to stupid to realize that their body faught off EVERY attempt to start smoking cigarettes but they FORCED the shit into their system any way then smoking is their OWN FAULT. Everyone I know caughed their heads off and felt sick after the first time they tried a cigarette. Some of them kept doing it any way. That's fine if they choose to do so, but why should they then get free money later on when they become sick? I don't care if the tabacco industry lied about cancer, what kind of moron would actually beleive they can inhale smoke all their lives a NOT have some health problem later on? That's retarded! It's SMOKE! Thick smoke at that. Shit, as a kid everyone is taught NOT to breath smoke during a fire because IT CAN KILL YOU! Jebus people, wake up and take responsibility for your actions! You can live how ever you want but OWN UP TO YOUR SHIT!

      Why are we letting the legal system reward morons for not taking responsibility for their own actions? Sorry, but this whole topic just pisses me off, the world is rapildy being overrun by whiney pussies and I can't take it any more!

    9. Re:you know... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Some new study got some results that suggest the air quality inside the plane may have something to do with DVT.

      They measured the levels of thrombin in people before/after an 8 hour plane ride and while sitting around for 8 hours (in the same seats) on the ground.

      They only used 71 people, but their conclusion was that the low-pressure and low-oxygen air might be causing elevated levels of clotting stuff.

      Articles from google news

      Everything you listed more than likely contributes to DVT, but the poor air quality just might be what tips people over the edge.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    10. Re:you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      i realize everyone thinks they're cute by making cracks about how we don't want to test planes by crashing them, but it's actually pretty awesome that we're to the point where we can get all of the info we need about in-flight stuff in just 6 seconds,


      One of the points of the test is to see _if_ they can get the info they need in just 6 seconds. It's a pretty tall order. There are transients in the data at the start that can be hard to isolate, and
      it's particularly difficult to measure hypersonic flow because anything you stick inside the flow is going to burn up very quickly.

    11. Re:you know... by evilviper · · Score: 1
      Second, from a legal stand point, intent is always considered. If the person did not intend to kill, only do injury by shooting in the arm, then it would probably be man slaughter and not murder.

      You're clearly not a lawyer, because that's simply untrue.

      Lots of people want to blame fast food for their ass being fat, or cigarettes for their getting cancer, or movies and video games for violence.

      This sounds like libertarian bullshit to me... People started suing fast-food chains because they did not make nutrition information available, and cigarette companies for intentionally concealing health risks, and denying the issue, in contradiction of the evidence they had available to them, and so much more.

      If some fat ass does something that's bad for their body, but NOT regular heathly people, that is their own fault!

      It's very bad for regular health people to sit perfectly still in a tiny confined space as well... It's just very rarely LEATHAL when you're relatively healthy, and more than that, the smaller you are, the less you are confined by tiny airline seats (so women, for instance, are at much less risk than men).

      If airlines were posting large (and accurate) warnings about the (non-obvious) dangers of flying, I wouldn't consider them culpable at all. Instead, it's Caveat Emptor, and unleash the lawyers.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    12. Re:you know... by evilviper · · Score: 1

      I'd agree if there were numerous warnings posted around the airport, warnings read when you call up to reserve a ticket, linked-to on the companies' websites, etc.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    13. Re:you know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're clearly not a lawyer, because that's simply untrue.

      What and you are? I can asure you that, in my country at least (the USA), intent is always taken into account. That's why we have such things as multiple levels of murder and man slaughter charges that carry different sentencing requirements. I can assure you that accidental death of any kind would not result in an iunstant Murder 1 charge, even in a shooting. You never say who shot them, it's very unspecific. What if it was a police officer who shot a suspect in the arm, because they where running from the law. Then the suspect dies of trama. You do not honestly think the courts would charge an officer with ANY level of murder in that case do you? At the most it would be some man slaughter charge...

      This sounds like libertarian bullshit to me... People started suing fast-food chains because they did not make nutrition information available, and cigarette companies for intentionally concealing health risks, and denying the issue, in contradiction of the evidence they had available to them, and so much more.

      Oh come on! I don't care about any of that. How stupid do you have to be to think a greasy burger is good for you? Even if there is not posted nutrition info. That's a lame ass excuse for NOT taking responsibility for YOUR SELF! Same thing with the cigarette's, as I explained previously you have to be fucking retarded to not realize your body does NOT WANT YOU TO INHALE SMOKE! I don't care what the companies did, sure it was wrong but you cannot argue that people forcing smoke into their lungs was a smart idea on their part to begin with! And "libertarian bullshit"? No way, no fucking tree hugging libertarian would agree with me on this one. They are the types who WANT to blame other people and not force everyone to take responsibility for their own actions!

      It's very bad for regular health people to sit perfectly still in a tiny confined space as well... It's just very rarely LEATHAL when you're relatively healthy, and more than that, the smaller you are, the less you are confined by tiny airline seats (so women, for instance, are at much less risk than men).

      Read again your OWN WORDS:

      It's just very rarely LEATHAL when you're relatively healthy

      Thank you for prooving my point!

      Instead, it's Caveat Emptor, and unleash the lawyers.

      Ah yes, the exact mentality I was railing against. But hey! Why take respnsibility for your own actions when you can just sue people and get free money! lawyers are the bane of existance...

  13. They should have just talked to the Americans by Expert+Determination · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm sure they could suggest hundreds of places where they'd like to see a new crater. Two birds with one stone 'n' all that.

    --
    "The White House is not an intelligence-gathering agency," -- Scott McClellan, Whitehouse spokesman.
    1. Re:They should have just talked to the Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was hoping for a Mythbusters tie-in. I'm sure there's some myth out there that requires a 9000km/h engine to crash into it. "What do you say? -"Busted." -"Yeah, definitely busted."

    2. Re:They should have just talked to the Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no! Seven flies with one stroke, it was.

  14. poor pilot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    his worst job ever ...

    1. Re:poor pilot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is anyone else thinking of Beaker, from the Muppets. "Now Beaker, just climb into the cockpit and push the 'GO' button. It should be a short flight." Beaker: "Eep!"

  15. Pilot Needed? by mordors9 · · Score: 1

    I heard Donald Trump is trying to volunteer the current wife now that she has given birth. Time to move on ....

    1. Re:Pilot Needed? by cashman73 · · Score: 1
      I know a certain Senator from New York State that would make a great test pilot for this mission,... ;-)

    2. Re:Pilot Needed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know a better one.

    3. Re:Pilot Needed? by navyjeff · · Score: 1

      It just so happens that the human brain is still the most powerful computer that can be easily mass produced. Now if we could just get rid of that 'ethics' thingy...

  16. Budget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are they testing a Scramjet or a new Bunker-buster?

    They were given a budget of one million pounds.

    What do you THINK

  17. At The Test Range by MightyMartian · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Alright, mates, now I want you all to pay real close attention. Yes you too, Smiley, and don't give me that with the finger, I know all about your Sheila and the dijaroo player. Now what we're going to do is take this engine, yes the one you see right behind me, and we're going to take it up this really high ladder here... Smiley, pay attention, we get one shot at this before the Brits cancel the check and get some bloody Yank to do it... Smiley, wake up!!!! Better, now, like I was saying, I want Smiley and Benton to hoist the engine up, yes that's with ropes Smiley... no I'm not interested in the dijaroo player's... never mind... Now, when we drop it, it's really important that we make a lot of noise, because for a million bucks they want it to look like it dropped from 35 miles... Smiley, put down that bloody stick, you don't want to end it all that way... No, I don't know any good dijaroo players...

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    1. Re:At The Test Range by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahaha, but a few minor innacuracies that I'll forgive you for

      Smiley should be Blue
      dijaroo is actually didgeridoo
      check is spelt cheque in Oz
      million bucks would more likely be million quid

      But still funny.

      --
      Australia "Where the bloody hell are you?" Offending Canadians, British and Singaporians to get free advertising.

    2. Re:At The Test Range by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      Huh? What? Ropes? Zzzzzzz.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    3. Re:At The Test Range by mfrank · · Score: 1

      An' change yer name to Bruce. It's less confusin' that way.

    4. Re:At The Test Range by saladasalad · · Score: 1

      Dijaroo?

      You mean a Didgeridoo?

      Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didgeridoo

  18. Re:RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Troll.

    If everything goes to plan, the experiment will begin at a height of 35km. As the engine continues its downward path the fuel in the scramjet is expected to automatically ignite.

    The scientists will then have just six seconds to monitor its performance before the £1m engine eventually crashes into the ground.

  19. Only can imagine the initial conversation... by thrill12 · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... the inventor of this plan had with the senior manager in control of the budget:

    "So let's see, in short your plan is to fly a plane up to 35 kilometers in height above the mainland of Australia, switch off the engine, let it drop down with a highly experimental engine - this 'scramjet' - that you suppose would then go off automatically and accelerate the vehicle to a phenomenal speed, finishing it all off with a nice crash of that same million dollar plane into the ground ?"

    "Oh yeah mate, blimey, that's it - you got it in one row !"

    "You ever done this before ?"

    "Nah, if I would ave, I wouldn't be standing here mate, eh ?"

    "And this 'scramjet', it would ignite automatically ?"

    "Sure, that's what the manual says anyhow"

    "And while it sores over our Australian mainland with this high velocity, and when it enters the ground in the final stage, it would not have reached any, say, 'populated' areas?"

    "Nah mate, only a couple'a'dingos probably. Everything should be fine, unless things go wrong, but that's why we're testing eh, aye?"

    "You're absolutely right, I guess... Here's your money, and now don't screw up !"

    "Sure thing, won't screw up, and I will tell the same to the monkey that drives the controls ! Cheers mate !"

    --
    Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
    1. Re:Only can imagine the initial conversation... by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      >"Nah, if I would ave, I wouldn't be standing here mate, eh ?"

      Now this isn't aboot Canadians, is it?

    2. Re:Only can imagine the initial conversation... by thebigmacd · · Score: 1

      No, it's obviously not, since Canadians generally don't say "aboot". I'm Canadian and been all over the country and never have I heard a serious Canadian say "aboot".

  20. It would have seemed more logical... by jd · · Score: 3, Interesting
    To give the engine a fast initial velocity, rather than use a parabolic orbit in which the engine essentially has a standing start at 35 Km up. The engineers presumably know what they're doing, so I guess they've thought all this through, but I'd have strapped a couple of standard ramjets either side of the scramjet. At peak altitude, it would then be possible to accelerate the scramjet to near-ignition point using the ramjets. You've then got virtually the entire 35Km descent to do the scramjet testing.


    (Hydrogen-fuelled ramjets are useless above Mach 5, but that's about when the scramjet should ignite, so you really wouldn't need a whole lot of additional acceleration at that point. If they've got the ignition point within the limit, you could even switch directly from one to the other.)


    The other thing I don't like is that this is destructive testing. It's inescapable, given the approach they're using, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Their data collection has to be wireless, since no recording device is going to survive a mach 7 impact, but wireless is relatively slow. This means that they're going to be limited in what they can collect - what parameters, what accuracy, what resolution, etc.


    Normally, this wouldn't matter a great deal. But we're talking mach 7 speeds in a far denser atmosphere than most existing hypersonic travel (such as the shuttle re-entry) have taken place in. I believe there have been two successful scramjet flights in the past, so we have a little information on what happens under those conditions, but it seems somewhat... brave... if they are assuming they can interpolate between the few data points they'll be able to collect -and- extrapolate beyond the six seconds of flight.


    Again, I'm sure they have their reasons, but for novel engines under novel conditions, I'd have thought that getting as much data as humanly possible would be worth almost any additional effort.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by borderpatrol · · Score: 1

      You're over thinking.

      This ain't rocket science.

      --
      Yeah I've been starving them, teasing them, singing off key. Me may mah mo, me mo ma me.
    2. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by DemonThing · · Score: 1

      No doubt they'll also be collecting data from the ground as well. (Who says all the data has to be sent from the scramjet engine?)

    3. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by Gulthek · · Score: 1

      Because all they can measure from the ground without depending on a wireless connection is the aircraft's position, speed, and orientation. Big whoop.

    4. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Informative
      Their data collection has to be wireless, since no recording device is going to survive a mach 7 impact, but wireless is relatively slow.

      The recently-launched SPACEWAY-3 communications satellite sports 10Gbps of bandwidth from geosynchronous orbit. I do not think wireless is as slow as you might be thinking.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    5. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      but I'd have strapped a couple of standard ramjets either side of the scramjet. At peak altitude, it would then be possible to accelerate the scramjet to near-ignition point using the ramjets. You've then got virtually the entire 35Km descent to do the scramjet testing.


      maybe they didn't want the ignition point to be so high up, perhaps they have some reason for not wanting it to test over a long period of time? the only guess i would have is that there is some reason to not have the entire descent to do the testing... perhaps not wanting the engine to run too long? and so they might as well make it a free fall (cheaper?) plus, if the ignition point was too high up and it was for such a short time, probably harder for data to be collected? i dunno

      i was thinking the same thing myself tho.
    6. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by jayteedee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd have thought that getting as much data as humanly possible would be worth almost any additional effort.

      Ah....This ending pretty much explains the whole comment. You must be a physicist....certainly NOT an engineer. There is always diminishing returns on investment. You must pick a price point evaluate what you will get out of any test. More data is almost always better, but somebody has to pay out in the real (non-university) world.

      Other errors:
      There are solid state data recorders specifically made for high speed impacts. On the order of 100,000 G's. Place one in the back behind something heavy/solid and you shouldn't have any problem.

      Wireless can hit 10,000,000 bits/second with one channel. Throw a couple of S-band channels and you have a stout communication line to the ground. Plus the hardware (Rx stations) is already in place at most ranges.

      I assume they are doing the burn on the way down because they couldn't afford a rocket big enough to accelerate up to M=7.6 in a dense atmosphere. Plus they don't have to deal with all the heating issues while they are accelerating. Take a nice gentle ride at speeds up to M=3 or 4 and then use gravity to assist you up to the desired speed for the test. As an ENGINEER, I like their simple, low-cost solution to their test.

      --
      Religion and science are both 90% crap..but that doesn't negate the other 10%.
    7. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by beta21 · · Score: 1

      And they are not using a Linksys router. Because if you expect 6 seconds of connectivity from that...forget it!

    8. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by dbIII · · Score: 1
      I'd have strapped a couple of standard ramjets either side of the scramjet.
      Rockets are cheap in comparison to jet engines.
    9. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by MyNymWasTaken · · Score: 3, Informative

      The test scramjet will be attached to a rocket that takes it up to 330km being dropping back to Earth. It should hit the requisite speed at 35km.

      Also, what do you propose for a simple up & down trajectory that isn't parabolic?
      As for destructive testing, there would need to be a lot more work done to save a prototype that will never be used again and the primary datapoint they are looking doesn't require much resolution.

      "Did it light? Good."

      KISS!

    10. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Ummm... In the article, they rocket to 330 km and 'plummet back to Earth', the scramjet only ignites at 35 km. They DO have the full 35 km for testing, but it accellerates downwards....

    11. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by glowworm · · Score: 1

      But Spaceway-3 (when it's launced in 2007) is to be at 95W which is not accessible in Australia, As the test is taking place down under it would need to be a satellite parked around 160E. Unfortunately this means one of the Aussats or Asiasats which would not really be suitable for such a high velocity test.

      --
      Orationem pulchram non habens, scribo ista linea in lingua Latina
    12. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by Amouth · · Score: 1

      only thing that bothers me is that the impact at mach 7 with rock is going to vaporize most of the unit if not all of it..

      it would make alot more sence to fire this thing into the ocean where it more than likly could be recovered mostly intact if it has an impact absorber on the front of it to take the force of breaking the surface tension of the water.

      kinda like doing balistics.. you shoot the gun into water not rock so that you have something when your done to look at.

      it isn't that i don't like their idea of shooting it down.. infact it makes sence.. it is the into the ground and not into the ocean that seems stupid to me.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    13. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      The implication being that if you can get 10Gbps from a satellite 23,000 miles away, you might be able to do as well from a transmitter only a few tens of miles away.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    14. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by jd · · Score: 1
      You'd fire the rocket straight up, carrying the scramjet and ramjet(s). (If you have the ramjet directly behind the scramjet, as if another rocket stage, you only need one.) Once the rocket's fuel is exhausted, you release the rocket. You let the scramjet/ramjet collection continue to glide upwards until the speed dropped to about 500 mph. (You can let the speed get down to 400, but I'm allowing a safety margin, as you'd want to be certain the ramjets fired.)


      The ramjets fire at probably 32-34 Km (35 would be where the velocity drops to zero, so it has to be under that). As ramjets are inefficient in a thin atmosphere, you'd want them to alter the trajectory to keep at roughly the same height. You burn the ramjet(s) until the speed gets back to mach 5 - mach 6, then you tilt the assembly downwards. If your ramjets can go fast enough to ignite the scramjet, you only need enough gravity assist to maintain ignition velocity. You don't need to point downwards any more than that. If it's not quite fast enough, THEN you'd want to point down.


      In both cases, the trajectory goes from straight up to straight across. In the first case, it finishes with an extremely elongated second half of a parabola. In the second case, the whole thing will look more like a square wave with rounded corners.


      Sure, it'll never be used again. However, there are definitely things I'd have thought the engineers would want to know. For example, to what extent did the engine itself react with the atmosphere or fuel? The atmosphere isn't empty, but what impact (sorry!) will that have on the design? What happens when you turn a scramjet off, after a sustained burn?

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    15. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by shawnce · · Score: 1

      If you shoot a high velocity bullet into water it explodes into pieces (handguns are low velocity and water can be used to trap such bullets).

      At these speeds (if impact is close or beyond super sonic) hitting water will basically have the same effect as hitting a more solid surface.

    16. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not a physicist, he's an idiot who thinks he knows better.

      OK, he could be a physicist. But I doubt it, he shows no signs of having any specialist knowledge of any area, just mouthing off in a semi-informed way.

    17. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by ColaMan · · Score: 1

      You could always have a small recording package that jettisons at (say) 10,000 feet. After 10 seconds of tumbling deceleration you'll probably be subsonic. Release a drogue chute then and it'll land fine.

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    18. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by 87USAFA · · Score: 1

      I'm not an authority, but I am actually at the launch site listening to the countdown (1.5 hours to go!).

      There are several data recording devices in the engine that are expected to survive, so we should have plenty of data (256 channels, BTW). I'll be flying out tomorrow to try to locate the payload. We fully expect to recover the remains.

      Also, when you think of wireless, don't imagine we have an 802.11g link. There is quite a bit of high speed telemetry going on -- the Aussies have quite an excellent telemetry ability at this range and they've had LOTS of practice.

    19. Re:It would have seemed more logical... by jayteedee · · Score: 1

      It will vaporize the stuff in front, and some of the lighter metals like aluminum and mangesium. But I've seen high speed impacts that have hardened steel penetrators (actually the penetrator from a Pershing missile front end) that are scrapped up a bit, but entirely intact probably maintained 98-99% of their original mass. The shell holding the penetrator made a spectacular plume that looked like an explosion (no warheads or energetics onboard) and was due entirely to the aluminum combusting. This test was into solid granite, which was picked to simulate hardened concrete bunkers.

      As some other posted noted, hitting water at those speeds is about as bad as hitting the ground.

      Something I failed to note in my first post, the solid state recorders can significantly reduce the cost of a test over using telemetery systems. Plus they typically take up much less space in the vehicle and you don't have to worry about attenuation/blocking in the transmitting signal from the shock waves, or the thermal issues in using an antenna mounted on the outside skin of the vehicle. The antenna is also required to point mostly down towards the receiving antennsa which further complicates the thermal issues. Only NASA can afford to receive telemetry back up to a satellite.

      --
      Religion and science are both 90% crap..but that doesn't negate the other 10%.
  21. Does this mean that by thejeek · · Score: 4, Funny

    it can only be deemed a failure if it *doesn't* crash? -- jeek

  22. Not a bad idea by MiniMike · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's probably cheaper than _not_ making it crash. They would have to add skids, a parachute, or something else to it for any type of landing, and that would add mass and cost, and probably make the test less accurate. They would also have to test these additional components. This way they won't have to pay for disposal or storage when they're done with it.

    Of course, those savings would be negated if they somehow hit something 'expensive'...

    -M

    1. Re:Not a bad idea by MooUK · · Score: 1

      They'd need a lot more than a parachute. Remember, it'll be going at some considerable speed even before the scramjet ignites, and at that point it will be pointing more-or-less straight down. It'll take six seconds to hit the ground. That would give you not long to test the engine, then successfully decelerate and level out.

      Not particularly practical, I'd say.

    2. Re:Not a bad idea by Tiger4 · · Score: 1
      "...They would have to add skids, a parachute, or something else..."

      Not really.

      All you need is enough parachute to slow you down to a survivable impact speed. Maybe some control surface to level you out and aerobrakes to slow you down before the chute deploys. Not even a wing really. Just enough control to send it arcing up again, and enough brake to keep the second descent slow, like a shuttlecock. Military air-to-air missiles commonly have very small control surfaces, even though they travel at Mach 2.5 Sidewinder.

      --
      Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
    3. Re:Not a bad idea by spec8472 · · Score: 1

      "Of course, those savings would be negated if they somehow hit something 'expensive'..."

      They're testing this in the desert... to be precise: the south australian desert.

      The only thing "expensive" that might cause some issues would be if they went really off target and hit Pine Gap - then the Yanks will want to invade. If they hit Adelade - "oops, my bad", no big loss.

      *hides*

    4. Re:Not a bad idea by MiniMike · · Score: 0

      That was pretty much my point. Let me summarize it differently- there's no practical method of having this land in a controlled manner. Any method which would give it a soft landing would be either too expensive to be worthwhile, or would require modifying the test procedure such that the test would be useless. More likely both.

      -M

    5. Re:Not a bad idea by MiniMike · · Score: 0

      Um, really.

      Those are listed as impractical methods, "skids" should have given that away. What type of parachute do you think it would take to slow it down from Mach 7.6? At that speed, how high would it have to start turning to avoid hitting the ground? Remember that this will have little to no thrust (RTFA) at that point, unlike military missiles. Not saying that it _couldn't_ be done, it's just completely impractical.

      -M

    6. Re:Not a bad idea by drsmithy · · Score: 1
      If they hit Adelade - "oops, my bad", no big loss.

      That's assuming anyone outside of Adelaide even notices...

  23. what a waste by phatmonkey · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Surely there are better things to spend this money on?

    1. Re:what a waste by geekoid · · Score: 1

      once we can build a reliable ramjet trhat can be reused, it could go into commercial airlines.
      which mean in order to compete, they will need to by more of these planes, which means more jobs, and probably far more them 1million in taxes.

      People probably said the same thing about the Moon Launch, but we have returned over 15 dollars for every dollar spent in taxes on the new industries the Moon program created.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:what a waste by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Like what?

      Basic science and engineering research is cheap, and the dividends are colossal.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  24. I can't wait... by martinultima · · Score: 4, Funny

    Until MythBusters decides to try this one!

    --
    Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
  25. Scramjet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Scrambledjet

  26. A tad bit more than 35km by Mo6eB · · Score: 1

    The summary suggests, that the engine will be lifted 35km off the ground and dropped.

    The article states, that it will be lifted 330km above the ground and dropped, with ingnition expected to occur at an altitude of 35km, after which, only 6 seconds would be left, before the engine hits the ground.

    1. Re:A tad bit more than 35km by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      The article states, that it will be lifted 330km above the ground

            Dude that's like, low earth orbit. Even the shuttle flies lower than that. Must be a typo.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:A tad bit more than 35km by Zen+Punk · · Score: 1

      Yes, but they wouldn't be acheiving orbit; just up, then down.

      --
      Sleep is futile.
    3. Re:A tad bit more than 35km by rufty_tufty · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between altitude and orbit.
      In the extereme case, if I got a 330km ladder and climbed up it then I would not be in orbit - If I jumped off the ladder I'd still fall to earth under gravity's influence. I'd have to achieve approx mach25 on top of the height to go into orbit.
      IIRC most of the shuttle's (or any orbital vehicle's) energy goes into primaraly achieving speed not height (of course height helps reduce air resistance).

      So it could well be accurate that the rocket they go up on requires significantly less than orbital energy to run this test.

      I could be talking out of my behind however, so feel free to ignore me...

      --
      "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
  27. Only on Slashdot by dsci · · Score: 5, Funny

    Do you see a comment by "heatdeath" responded to by "LiquidCoooled."

    --
    Computational Chemistry products and services.
  28. What in the flying Fonzarelli?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Hay ghuyz! Let's spend $50 million developing a new scramjet, build a $1.5 million prototype and run that son of a bitch into the ground! What'dya say?!"

    "Hell yeah!"
    "I'm stoked!"
    "Let's do it!"

    ------

    Why the hell didn't they launch the damn thing over the ocean and then retrieve it? Are they worried about the Ruskies/Chinese/Muslims/IRA/PETA/Greenpeace people trying to steal debris and reverse engineer it?

  29. Uk to Aus by Rdickinson · · Score: 2, Funny

    I always wondered hwo thre going to cut the flight time from the UK to Australia.

    looks like ther planning on taking the direct route....

  30. ScramCam? by rewinn · · Score: 1

    It should be an awefully short video!

  31. NHS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news, the NHS queues continue to get longer and service continues to decline. Go figure.

  32. Never have these words been heard together by caluml · · Score: 1
    If everything goes to plan ... the £1m engine will eventually crash into the ground.

    Sounds like a British project to me :)

    1. Re:Never have these words been heard together by initialE · · Score: 1

      What I worry about is what happens when you try to fall down, and miss the ground.

      --
      Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
  33. Well, aviation has a 100% success rate... by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

    ... 'cos we've never left anyone up there yet.

    1. Re:Well, aviation has a 100% success rate... by gstoddart · · Score: 1
      Well, aviation has a 100% success rate ... 'cos we've never left anyone up there yet.

      No, that means gravity works.

      Anybody can achieve a ballistic trajectory ... it's landing and controlling properly that's complicated.

      Otherwise, I'm sure some drunken people with a trebuchet achieved the first flights in the middle ages. Kinda like these idiots who decided to do just that.

      And, you gotta ask, just how many pints would you have to drink to decide you wanted to be launched out of such a device?
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Well, aviation has a 100% success rate... by thejeek · · Score: 1

      Well, there's a big pile of stuff in orbit that hasn't come down yet and there's a few tons of junk on the moon (or maybe it's all in some holywood backlot, if the the tin-foil hat brigade are to be believed...). Still given the vast amount of planes, birds and other stuff that hasn't stayed up there, I guess it's a few nines worth of crashing success rate -- jeek

    3. Re:Well, aviation has a 100% success rate... by Inkieminstrel · · Score: 2, Informative

      And, you gotta ask, just how many pints would you have to drink to decide you wanted to be launched out of such a device?

      6

  34. Plan worked for NASA (2nd time) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It only took NASA 2 tries to do this, but the second one was rather impressive. http://www.nasa.gov/missions/research/x43-main.htm l

  35. 7 figures vs 9, and NASA DID NOT FAIL by SuperBanana · · Score: 2, Informative
    who achieved the phenomenon with a budget of tins cans, string and glue whilst Nasa failed with a team of hundreds and a 9 figure budget.

    Wow. I don't know where to begin. Oh, I know- how about the fact that NASA DID NOT FAIL(article is from 2004, by the way- and they hit Mach 10).

    before the £1m engine eventually crashes into the ground

    A million British Pounds is US$1.7 million, which would put it firmly in the "seven figures" realm for JUST THE ENGINE. So I would think it would be reasonable to assume that eight figures ($10M) have been spent on the project in total.

    Lastly- the Aussies benefited quite a bit from research NASA has made over the last couple of DECADES...

    1. Re:7 figures vs 9, and NASA DID NOT FAIL by tony_gardner · · Score: 1

      I happen to know that the budget for the first two tests was one million australian dollars each. Of this, the price of the rocket was about half. The Qinetiq engine was built in 2001, and cost about the same as the Australian engines

  36. Somebody has to say it... by keraneuology · · Score: 1

    It sounds as if they are attempting to find a true replacement for the Concorde.

    --
    If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
  37. Six seconds? by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 2, Funny

    Begin test in 3...2...1... START!

    -At-choo!
    -Dude, WTF? Hit the RECORD BUTTON!
    -What?
    *CRASH*
    -Ah, nevermind.

  38. Re:One million GBP? With a MILLION POUNDINGS by davidsyes · · Score: 0

    of thrustin' I wouldn't need to hit the speed of sound to produce a screamin' jet...

    Oh, wait... wrong jet wrong thrust, wrong pound...

    (But, I WOULD pound my feet and scram outta there like a jet...)

    (word image: minstrel)

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  39. A thought: Possible launch vehicle? by NeuroManson · · Score: 1

    If such a vehicle is launched at an angle towards the Earth, it would have a gravitational assist, that, with steering motors, could be used for an inverted slingshot effect, to launch a payload at escape velocity, expending (and needing) less fuel than would be nessesary for orbit. It would have the effect of using a hypersonic ramp for launch.

    Are there any real rocket scientists out there who can correct/disprove my hypothesis?

    --
    Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
    1. Re:A thought: Possible launch vehicle? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure thing, kiddo. Conservation of energy, combined with Newton's law of universal gravitation and a little calculus, shows that you can never escape a gravity well with anything less than a certain amount of energy, equal to how deep you are in the gravity well. The escape velocity is just a number you need to reach in order to have a kinetic energy great enough to exit the gravity well without any additional energy input.

      Of course, you can always expend more energy by simply being inefficient, but regardless of what trajectory you take, no matter how complicated you make it to exploit whatever fancy effects, there's a minimum. It's also incidentally higher than the energy needed to reach orbital velocity or a lunar transfer orbit, although not by much.

      Gravitational slingshot works because you're outside the gravity well. You zoom in and get flung out. The planet goes a little bit slower, your spacecraft goes a whole lot faster. It's like a billiard ball getting struck with a bowling ball; the slowing moving bowling ball just has to touch the billiard ball, and hardly gets slowed down at all, while the billiard ball zooms off at high speed. Basic momentum transfer stuff. Doesn't work if you're on the bowling ball and trying to get off, though.

  40. Mythbusters Episode by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    This needs to be on an episode of Mythbusters...so they have something else to blow up or crash

  41. Already been done by NASA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  42. Re:RTFA by Furmy · · Score: 1

    If everything goes to plan, the experiment will begin at a height of 35km.

    I wonder if the team declined to comment on what might happen if "everything goes to hell."

  43. These people were doing the NASA research by dbIII · · Score: 1
    Lastly- the Aussies benefited quite a bit from research NASA has made over the last couple of DECADES...
    I saw a scramjet model in Brisbane, Australia in 1987 which was being prepared to be put into the shock tunnel at the University of Queensland Mechanical Engineering Department. Some of the funding came from NASA - this IS the research that NASA has been doing over decades. It doesn't all happen in Texas guys, it's a big world out there.
    1. Re:These people were doing the NASA research by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Holy crap! You mean my important-to-my-sense-of-self jingoistic xenophobia is not well substantiated by events that happen on planet Earth?

      My world view! It's disintegrating!

      (do I need a sarcasm tag?)

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    2. Re:These people were doing the NASA research by rk · · Score: 1

      Heck, most of it doesn't even happen in Texas. It's just that the Johnson Space Center is the home for manned spaceflight, so it gets all the attention.

  44. Some hurdles by quanminoan · · Score: 4, Informative
    Scramjets are really interesting. They are just as powerful as rocket engines should they work properly, but they don't have to carry around nearly as much fuel. Liquid hydrogen/oxygen fuel for a rocket has most of it's weight stored as the heavier oxygen. The scramjet and ramjet engines intend to scoop the oxygen from the atmosphere, reducing the weight of the aircraft by several times.

    The engineering behind the ramjet and scramjet couldn't be any more different. Ramjets are basically scramjet engines that purposefully slow the air intake so that combustion can occur. In a scramjet the big problem is that the air is moving so fast that when you ignite the fuel/air mixture, the combustion will actually take place outside the engine. It would be ridiculous to slow the air, so the problem lies in how you get the mixture to ignite sooner. To this end they are testing ionizing mixtures, etc. Some scramjet geometries are highly classified.

    Here's a good link that talks about the combustion issue: http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-10/iss-4/p24.htm l

    And of course some general information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet

    1. Re:Some hurdles by belg4mit · · Score: 1

      I should think a major disadvantage is the formation of NOX. A quick search shows that there's work in that area (reducing NOX) but it can never be completely eliminated. So I'd guess the process itself apparently pollutes more than a fuel+LOX burn; though it may pan out better given less fuel required to burn.

      --
      Were that I say, pancakes?
    2. Re:Some hurdles by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      I'd guess the process itself apparently pollutes more than a fuel+LOX burn

            But it pollutes for less time, since the vehicle covers more distance per time. I wonder if it actually pollutes more in terms of volume.

            Besides, history has shown that us humans really don't give a damn about pollution, especially at that altitude...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  45. Let's hope... by rnturn · · Score: 1

    ... the crash doesn't awaken the green ants. I still have things I want to do!

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  46. Well, yeah. by jd · · Score: 1
    But it'll be limited. They can get a bit more info than just speed & position - since hydrogen + oxygen = water, they could (not necessarily will) use microwave radar to see how the exhaust from the jet behaves, for example. Other than sensors on the engine itself, though, I can't see any way they could observe turbulance either on the outside or the interior of the engine - and that's going to be critical to understand.


    (They can't necessarily get the internal info from a one second test in a wind tunnel and I can't see how they can get the external info at all by that method. Computational Fluid Dynamics is messy for turbulant flow, is very messy when you've a mix of hypersonic, supersonic, transsonic and subsonic airflows in the same system, and is a menace to the brain when you've no obvious way of knowing what the numbers are even supposed to look like.)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  47. I'll tell you the same thing I tell my wife....! by JustASlashDotGuy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Anything worth doing can be done in 6 seconds! ;)

  48. Sounds like... by slughead · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... Windows 98. No, seriously, think about it:

    The scientists will then have just six seconds to monitor its performance before the £1m engine eventually crashes into the ground.

    Replace the word "scientists" with "consumers", "£1m" with "$5b", and "engine" with "OS." Also, add the phrase "If it boots," before the statement.

    1. Re:Sounds like... by Ahnteis · · Score: 1

      98 wasn't anywhere near that bad (although it was a lot worse then 2000/XP). You're thinking of either 95 (original) or ME.

    2. Re:Sounds like... by evilviper · · Score: 1

      In fact, forget the lunar lander and the blackjack.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  49. Can anyone say Mythbusters... by craznar · · Score: 1

    Tonight we will be testing the myth that "At high speeds, an object can pass through the earth" as brought to popularity by the series Stargate.

    To do this we will be ... story continues above.

    --
    EMail: 0110001101100010010000000110001101110010 0110000101111010011011100110000101110010 0010111001100011011011110110
  50. Re:RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If everything goes to hell they will just destroy it via remote command destruct. It is typical in any unmanned test vehicle.

    Also, it is really no big deal at all that they are letting it crash after the test. We did it with Hyper-X. Besides it won't be able to carry enough fuel to turn around slow down and land. Moreover, this is only a small test vehicle so rebuilding another isn't as big of a deal as building a full fledged one.

  51. Birds? by c2d6000 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I first read this headline as "Birds to crash test a scramjet", and man, I thought... those birds should be flying pretty high up!

  52. The somewhat inside story by brindafella · · Score: 2, Informative

    A colleague of mine is the project manager for the HyShot trial. It is being conducted at the Australian Defence Force's Woomera test and evaluation range and shooting north-west across the Australian desert.

    Woomera and nearby areas has a long history of trials; several British designed rockets were trialled there, and several satellites were launched to earth orbit. Maralinga was one Australian site of British atom bomb tests in the late '40s and '50s.

    HyShot is intended to be recovered, but it is a large area in which it might land. Watch this space!

    --
    Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
    1. Re:The somewhat inside story by brindafella · · Score: 1

      The launch has been delayed until Saturday 25 March (Central Australian time.)

      --
      Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
  53. cranky! by nightsweat · · Score: 3, Funny

    And yet, when I tried to apply this in my Biology labs, the professors got REAL cranky...

    --

    the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
    1. Re:cranky! by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which...

      A buddy of mine used to tell this story (it may be aprocryphal, since it's a FOAF story)...

      They'd freeze frogs in liquid nitrogen, and throw them against the wall so they'd shatter. They'd then leave the shards in trash cans as a joke, because when they thawed/melted it stunk to high heaven.

      Anyways... one day some dude was going to do this, but didn't have any N2, so he used LOX instead. Froze the frog real good, but when he threw it against the wall, the frog exploded... blew a hole in the wall.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  54. Dee You See Tee by onkelonkel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The word you want is DUCT as in DUCT tape. Of course there is a company called "Duck" that makes "Duck Tape" which is actually duct tape, which no doubt adds to the confusion.

    Yes, Duct tape can contain nucular explosions. Duct tape can be used for anything*!


    * except taping ducts; it's no good at all for that.

    --
    None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    1. Re:Dee You See Tee by jacksonj04 · · Score: 1

      The best stuff to use is electrician's gaffer tape. I have a wallet made out of it, which has survived everything including being in my pocket with keys for days on end.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    2. Re:Dee You See Tee by Rei · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, it was initially called Duck Tape (as in, "quack quack", because it was a waterproof seal for ammo casings), back in the 40s. After the war people started using it on ducts, so they renamed it.

      --
      People said I was dumb, but I proved them.
    3. Re:Dee You See Tee by onkelonkel · · Score: 1

      I looked on wiki and by jeez yer right. /properly chastised/

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    4. Re:Dee You See Tee by Boronx · · Score: 1

      That's weird, because in my experience Duck Tape has not been very waterproof.

    5. Re:Dee You See Tee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Duck" is a kind of cotton fabric which was the backing of the original tape.

    6. Re:Dee You See Tee by redalien · · Score: 1

      > The word you want is DUCT as in DUCT tape. Of course there is a company
      > called "Duck" that makes "Duck Tape" which is actually duct tape, which no
      > doubt adds to the confusion.
      >
      > Yes, Duct tape can contain nucular explosions. Duct tape can be used for
      > anything*!
      >
      >
      > * except taping ducts; it's no good at all for that.

      Although co-incidentally it's perfect for taping ducks.

    7. Re:Dee You See Tee by onkelonkel · · Score: 2, Funny

      If you're taping ducks to ducts would you use duct tape or duck tape?

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
  55. 35 kilometers in 6 seconds? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Damn that's fast. Straight down i suppose?

  56. Setting the video? by Clazzy · · Score: 1

    I wonder what they do if they can't set up the video or forget to push the record button? Six seconds before the person is out of a job?

    --
    If we can hit that bull's-eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards... Checkmate.
  57. That bird gun thing by CaptainCarrot · · Score: 1

    Are they also going to try to find out what happens when you fling a frozen chicken at the windshield?

    --
    And the brethren went away edified.
  58. Yeah, that's true. by jd · · Score: 1
    On the other hand, building scramjets isn't cheap either. On the other hand, the more scramjets you need to get the same amount of data, the more expensive the research is, even if an individual experiment is cheaper. Ramjets aren't bad, pricewise (not much in them, although what there is has to be precisely engineered), they're not turbines. (Most ramjets in practical use are combinations of turbine and ramjet, because a pure ramjet won't function below 400 mph, so you can't go by what would be a standard cost.)


    Two ramjets wouldn't be cheap, but it would cost a lot less than one scramjet plus rocket. So, if we assume the "next run" would also collect 4-6 seconds of data if it's on a purely parabolic orbit, then your ramjets might only need to add another 3-4 seconds of data to pay for themselves. Because the descent path would be very much stretched out (you now need gravity to sustain the engine's speed, not to accelerate it), it should be easy to add at least that much to the data collection time. Possibly more.


    If you can add a whole 6 seconds to the actual scramjet burn time, you've eliminated the need for an entire run (as you've that much more data) and have data on how the engine alters over a longer period of time, which could avoid the sorts of design errors which have led to other scramjets failing to start at all. (NASA's first scramjet failed to ignite by the time it impacted, for example.)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  59. oops! by BluRBD!E · · Score: 1

    You misspelt Holy Shit. Thanks

  60. Only on Slashdot by MadHakish · · Score: 2, Insightful

    do you see someone notice something like that...

    --
    Wisest is he who knows he does not know.
  61. Why crash it? by Dukeofshadows · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Surely they'd be able to try and get the engine to *move* during those 6 seconds and maybe gain altitude? What is stopping them from trying to get the engine out of a nosedive, especially at 1M pounds/unit?

    --
    As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
    1. Re:Why crash it? by stinkytoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Admittably, IANAAE (i am not an aeronautical engineer), but lack of wings maybe?

    2. Re:Why crash it? by tony_gardner · · Score: 2, Informative

      No aerodynamic control surfaces. That's also why the HyperX cost more. The NASA tests were 10 seconds of scramjet testing and 10 minutes of hypersonic manouvering.

  62. PKD and Sci fi by Robotron23 · · Score: 1

    It is remarkable how similar the intended future use for scramjet technology is to that described in a Philip K Dick novel by the name of Man in the High Castle, namely passenger airliners and space travel. The extremely fast ascent, followed by a relatively brief period in the lower stratosphere, and finally another period of intense speed, this time descending towards the relevant destination. Of course, in the novel the "Rocket ships" described are probably intended as an evolution of the V1/V2 bombs used in World War 2, a technology very different from scramjets - and completely neglectful of the potentially massive chemical costs per launch far outweighing even the most ostentatious of passenger fares :) . But even so, the similarity in timeframe description and such is remarkable considering the V2 was little more than a predecessor to the SCUD missile, and that scramjet tech was unheard of at the time of writing (1962).

    Once again, sci fi has "predicted" a potential new technology, though it isn't surprising as it has occured since the dawn of the genre. H.G. Wells predicted something resembling an atomic bomb, aswell as tanks during Edwardian times. It would be interesting to examine trends in developing technology, to see whether the cause and effect correlation with sci fiction predictions is beyond the aesthetic. We can already observe that many aesthetic features of say, some of Star Trek's technology, has made its way into the modern technology of today. Eg. The flip communicators -> mobile phones etc.

    1. Re:PKD and Sci fi by geekoid · · Score: 1

      This is becasue scf-fi writers put some thought into a problem that doesn't exist yet.

      Even with no Star Trek, our cell phone would still flip out.

      So there not really predictions, more like common outcomes to the same problem.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:PKD and Sci fi by rufty_tufty · · Score: 1

      Will we hear this argument again if/when a space elevator is built?
      What about sentient AI? Or a flying car? Or asteroid mining?

      SciFi is where the human imagination can run free and what defines good sci-fi to me is that you can extrapolate it from current technology and can imagine what is proposed. This is all well and good, but I think you lend too much credit to people's flights of fancy - to take your example how many of Star Trek's aesthetic features have actually made it into modern society? Not that I wouldn't welcome all those women in miniskirts at my office, but then I'd have to wear that jumpsuit and I'd have all those knobs to play with rather than this keyboard & mouse...
      So yes, sci fi does have lots of ideas, probably all the ideas huamns can imagine, but remember those ideas that didn't work and were far wrong as well as the one that came true.

      Remember a horoscope is not a good guide to the future...

      --
      "The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
  63. Hmmm. by jd · · Score: 1
    Generally, that would be true if you were talking about a fixed base-station and a satellite that will only move (from an angular perspective, from the ground) very slowly. A rocket plunging to a firey death at mach 7 is going to be moving much faster (from an angular perspective), which means you can't afford to have either the transmitting or receiving station use an extremely directional antenna.


    That's going to cost in a number of ways, but perhaps the most obvious is interference. The atmosphere has become very very noisy. This doesn't affect satellite communication much, precisely because you're working on a directional system. (You also don't have a sodding big scramjet blasting ionised gas out the back.) If you're having to collect any and every signal in the general direction of the engine, you're going to get a LOT more gunk, which is going to cap the speed well below what you could get under better conditions.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  64. whoa! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It weighs a million pounds!? No wonder the thing is expected to crash after six seconds.

    1. Re:whoa! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      It weighs a million pounds!? No wonder the thing is expected to crash after six seconds.

            Galileo proved that weight has nothing to do with it.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:whoa! by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Surely that's why bird feathers crash into earth regularly ;-)
      Galilei's result only holds if there's no air, or if air resistance can be neglected. When taking air resistance into account, the speed goes aup to a final value which depends, beside others, on the weight. In air, heavier things indeed fall faster.

      Not to mention that the GP post was a joke anyway, which makes your comment a bit besides the point.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  65. Good God Man, what've they done to his face?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    It's interesting to note that paull has used some of his new budget to get some kind of conical metal prosthesis added to his chin, one can only assume that this is intented to improve his aerodynamics.

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41471000/jpg /_41471360_paull_230b.jpg

  66. A Better idea? by npfscayle · · Score: 0

    what would happen if they strapped scramjets to the shuttle and tryed using the speed from re entry to ignite them?

  67. Now due to launch Sat. 25 March by brindafella · · Score: 1

    The launch has been delayed until Saturday 25 March (Central Australian time.) See my earlier entry.

    --
    Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
    1. Re:Now due to launch Sat. 25 March by chawly · · Score: 1

      Could they wait a little longer ? The 25th. is my birthday - I was hoping for a peaceful week-end.

      --
      How many beans make five, anyhow ? ... Charles Walmsley
  68. Oblig Bash.org by rob_squared · · Score: 1

    <jamz> hmm
    <jamz> I have a bottle of waterless hand cleaner
    <jamz> for car work and grease and stuff.
    <jamz> It's almost empty.
    <jamz> So, in order to stretch it out, I added some water to it.
    <jamz> In retrospect, not the smartest thing to do.
    <dan0_> this had better end with an explosion of some kind
    <jamz> and there was a huge explosion that could be seen from space.

    http://www.bash.org/?88661

    --
    I don't get it.
  69. The rocket doesn't need to be fast by dbIII · · Score: 1
    On the other hand, building scramjets isn't cheap either
    Yes it is cheap - there are not even any moving parts in the scramjet nozzle. It's designing and testing the scamjet that is the expensive and time consuming part, the scramjet I saw in a shock tunnel was made of a commercially available alloy and machined with fairly conventional equipment on a low budget. I should add that gravity is a very cheap way to get to the velocity needed to do the test - I think this is why the plan is to take it a long way up at whatever speed the rocket can manage, let it fall, and then let it hammer into the ground instead of having expensive gear that can get it to mach6+ on a straight run. Your idea is good, but the idea in the test is a lot simpler and the payload is not as expensive as you would think. A lot of the expensive stuff would be on the ground - put a lot of things in trucks and drive them to the middle of a desert and the costs mount up.
  70. Fuel automatically ignite... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're spending a boatload of money on this test..., but I guess a battery, an ignition coil, and a sparkplug would've busted their budget to make sure the thing ignites?

  71. Re:The right way to start by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The primary use for scramjets are kinetic energy kill vehicles not high speed airplanes. As such crashing them into the ground is the point. The airliner thing is just a cover story is just to give people a warm fuzzy feeling. After all the Concord was a miserable failure economically.

  72. YHBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HTH TIA

    1. Re:YHBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow! Want to try again in english this time? Do I need to run this through blowfish first or what?

      This isn't your cell phone, your not "txting" your hommie... man people are getting lazzy! Is it THAT difficult to fucking press the keys??

      Here's one for ya:

      LPWCTPMO

      Give up trying to figure that one out? Let me help you:

      Lazzy People Who Cannot Type Piss Me Off

    2. Re:YHBT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LPWCSWLLPMO

      Lazy People Who Cannot Spell Words Like "Lazy" Piss Me Off. :P

  73. Hypersonic wind tunnel testing by ebuck · · Score: 1

    Do you realize that hypersonic wind tunnels routinely test thier models for what amounts to a maximum of around 8 seconds?

    Given that they can collect tons of data within those 8 seconds to do real, pratical measurements that they then extrapolate over the relatively (but longer) durations of missle flight, etc. I'd wager that the 6 seconds of scramjet powered flight won't pose much of a problem for the data gathering phase.

    But don't believe me, just check Slashdot's January (2006) posting about the relatively silent (aka laminar wind flow) mach 6 wind tunnel put together at Perdue. It is vacuum driven, with only 8 seconds of measurements per run, and nobody seemed to be upset about that at all.

  74. I've always wanted to say that by Headcase88 · · Score: 1

    Mod you as troll for bashing Windows?

    You must be new here.

    --
    "When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
  75. Lastly- the Aussies benefited quite a bit... by PigIronBob · · Score: 1

    Mate this IS the research NASA has been doing for the last couple of decades, seem my previous message re: taking credit...

    --
    You never catch me alive
  76. I guess Douglas Adams had it right. by Darthmalt · · Score: 1

    When he wrote: "Flying is the art of being able to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

  77. Re:The right way to start by M0b1u5 · · Score: 1
    CORRECT! You get a cookie!

    Yes, a scramjet is an utterly useless device for transportation of human civilians. The vast majority of people can't handle the (very) mild forces experienced in a 747 - let alone a plane which will achieve Mach 7.

    Imagine it: 2 Gravities by rocket to the edge of the atmosphere. Switch to scramjet such that the plane skips out of the atmosphere, and then engage the scramjets again when the plane gets back into the breathable stuff... 2 minutes of 2G acceleration, followed by 2 minutes of free fall... yeah.... 95% of peeps would be throwing up violently within the first two minutes, and that would be the lucky (sedated!) ones.

    So, the only time the toilet on the plane is accessible is on the final glide in to landing. Half the time the toilet is unreachable, and the other half it's out of order. :P

    --
    How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
  78. Re:I'll tell you the same thing I tell my wife.... by Poeir · · Score: 1

    Yeah! I mean, that's long enough to perform an utterance sufficient to rewrite the laws of physics with enough time left to move 30 feet.

    --
    Sigs are like bumper stickers.
  79. I guess I don't understand by corngrower · · Score: 1

    So how is this different than say, dropping a rock?

    1. Re:I guess I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a rock with a scramjet engine bolted onto it.

  80. Get companies to bid on the targeting rights by WoTG · · Score: 1

    Well, if they have to crash the plane, so be it. Maybe they can finance it by selling the publicity rights to someone...

  81. Re:The right way to start by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    YES! Sounds great! Sign me up! I'll make sure and wear old clothes!

    Ever since I took up hang gliding I can't help grinning when there's turbulence on a plane. People getting that sick worried look... turbulence hanging off something built with the same construction materials as a good pup tent!

  82. Obligatory by MadUndergrad · · Score: 2, Funny

    Supposing two planes carried it together....

    1. Re:Obligatory by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      You mean African Planes?

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
  83. Re:Test pilot by Concerned+Onlooker · · Score: 1

    I hear they're paying the test pilot quite a lot. Here's a picture of his car.

    --
    http://www.rootstrikers.org/
  84. Re:The right way to start by zippthorne · · Score: 1

    Everyone looks at me funny when I throw up my hands and say "Woo" everytime there's a good bump. Or maybe it's my disappointed look afterward when the turbulance fails to meet with my excitement expectation...

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  85. Re:The right way to start by zippthorne · · Score: 1

    huh? are you saying it'll be like 6 minutes to travel to anywhere then? I think people would put up with the nausea for that kind of time savings.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  86. Re:The right way to start by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    I know what you mean. I get the same looks when the captain comes on the intercom to promise turbulence and I get a big grin on my face, then I demand my money back when the turbulence fails to materialize.

  87. Umm, did they think about pointing it upwards? by thisisauniqueid · · Score: 1

    Umm, did they think about pointing it upwards? Oh wait, it's happening in Australia. I don't know whether to think this is the Australians' doing, or the Brits' for having their up-vector aligned with the North Pole.

    1. Re:Umm, did they think about pointing it upwards? by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      The Earth's North Pole is really the south pole as it attracts the north pole of the compass needle.

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
  88. Isn't this improper? by woolio · · Score: 1

    LOL. They screwed up a CRASH test? Did it fly off-course and make a successful landing?

    I didn't think purposely crashing experimental was "proper" behaviour. It sounds so objectionable, so unpardonable. Surely this course of action only comes from those ill-mannered individuals with poor upbringing.

  89. Re:The right way to start by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
    Yes, a scramjet is an utterly useless device for transportation of human civilians.



    Make the flight expensive enough and eventually you'll find enough rich human civilians who will actually pay for it. Good marketing helps, too.

  90. One simple question... by dpilot · · Score: 1

    On any of these flights, has the scramjet accelerated the aircraft?

    I've been under the impression that so far all they've really been doing is trying to sustain supersonic combustion, and remember that after one flight it was going to take a lot of effort reading the telemetry to see if any thrust had been produced.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  91. A jet doing 9000 Kph by Timberwolf0122 · · Score: 1

    Never mind the ground it's bird strike I'm worried about!

    --
    In the not too distant future, next Sunday A.D.
  92. Sponsorship Logo - Powered by Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope some wag takes a paintbrush to the side, because one than think of 1/2 a dozen logo's that would fit the bill.

  93. Your message has been hax0red by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e.

    That's the MD5sum of the null string "".

  94. Remember, parents: by GnomeChompsky · · Score: 1
    All expeirements should end in some kind of explosion! What good is being a scienctist if you don't get to blow shit up?!?

    This is the sort of attitude that allowing your children to watch Mythbusters will foment. The price of freedom is eternal vigilence.
    1. Re:Remember, parents: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the sort of attitude that allowing your children to watch Mythbusters will foment.

      And what, you expect everyone to be as boring and droll as you are? Shesh!

      The price of freedom is eternal vigilence.

      Vigilence against what, people who like to have fun? You must be a republican...

  95. other impressive scramjets by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

    Have been tested in the '80's. I spent an interesting afternoon talking to a NASA engineer who was working on an American scramjet that got very little publicity. It was hydrogen-fueled and it "worked" (was all I really got from him.) He mentioned that the Russians were also testing scramjets and contrasted their techniques: the Americans built fantastic test suites and had all this fancy instrumentation but were having a lot of troubles actually getting the scramjets tested. The Russians were launching theirs on rockets from Poland and their instrumentation consisted of where the crash site was: if it hit within 200 miles of launch, the scramjet hadn't worked, but if it hit Siberia it had. Apparently they were consistently hitting Siberia with what they were running at the time. Both systems used hydrogen as the fuel. The Americans were presuming that the Soviets were doing the same thing they were and using hydrogen slush, a mix of solid and liquid, and forcing it through the nose of the scramjet to simultaneously cool it off and prevent it burning off, and also vaporize the H2 into burnable fuel. They used hydrogen because their primary limitation was the diffusion of fuel into oxygen: at the speeds this was designed to run (I think I recall hearing Mach 20 in the conversation) they were having a lot of trouble getting sufficient mixing for combustion to occur within the craft structure.

    --
    Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  96. Time to go home by Sigg3.net · · Score: 1

    I was all like; WTF? Why have a story about some Brits crashing a Scanjet?

  97. Only works in one direction? by tgrigsby · · Score: 1

    So let me get this straight: The new and highly advanced $1.7 million (USD) scramjet that took 3 decades to develop only works going downhill??

    Um. I'll pass...

    Oh wait, this was developed by Aussies? Well that makes sense. They live on the bottom of the world, so the plane thought it was climbing. Yeah, that must be it.

    No. I'll still pass...

    --
    *** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
    1. Re:Only works in one direction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scramjets aren't really intended for passenger planes. Think "Strategic Defense".
        Think missles moving at 9000+ km/h.

      That's what this is about.

    2. Re:Only works in one direction? by chawly · · Score: 1

      I also wish to pass on this one. There are some things I will never understand, and not a few things that I don't want even to hear about.

      --
      How many beans make five, anyhow ? ... Charles Walmsley
  98. "I wanna build a scramjet!" by otis+wildflower · · Score: 1

    "I wanna explore the far reaches of aerodynamics and materials science, and discover flight characteristics that have never been discovered!"

    "Look, you're British, scale it down a bit, all right?"

  99. The real economics by blair1q · · Score: 1

    the engine doesn't "cost" a million bucks

    these things should be pretty cheap to build

    it may have cost a million bucks to develop it, but replacing it should be wicked cheap

    now...building the booster rocket and launching the whole mess...that's an expensive proposition

  100. Brits To Crash Test a Scramjet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It looks like they have learned from the American experience, if it's going to crash anyway ...

  101. A little too fast. by jd · · Score: 1
    The shuttle is going at mach 26 at one point in the descent - I imagine it's going a lot faster at the start. The atmosphere is also very thin there - not much oxygen to scoop - which would complicate things.


    On the other hand, if you put a lightweight scramjet with waverider airfoil in the shuttle payload bay, then flung that into a survivable re-entry trajectory, it might work. The waverider would simply glide until the engine ignited and would then resume gliding once the burn had finished.


    In the end, this is what they'll be building to carry any cargo/people anyway, and modular testing only goes so far on a mechanical system.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  102. I've an idea by jd · · Score: 1
    Even if you don't have technical insights, you are clearly in a position to see more, know more and do more than 99.9999% of everyone on Slashdot. I don't know what information is classified or commercial confidential, but I imagine you'd be OK with writing up a bit about the launchsite, the recovery effort, etc. I'd be willing to bet that virtually everyone on Slashdot would salivate like a Pavlovian dog if you were to submit a piece - as a story or as a Slashdot journal entry.


    The news stories are fine and all that, but they miss out on the facts. The science journals do the facts, but have no context. An intrepid Slashdottian Reporter, "on the scene", would be able to cover the sorts of things that just don't get reported. Because Slashdot journals are updated faster than news websites, there's a chance you could even get the scoop on what happens.


    (I'm not pressing for a strict story, as it's so unpredictable as to what'll make it through the queue - unless CmdrTaco talls you to mail him the story direct - and I believe that if you can put something together, it'd be the most important news story on ANY tech/geek site.)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  103. Successful flight and trial by brindafella · · Score: 1

    I can't find if someone has said it here already, but... the media has reported that HyShot it was a successful flight and trial.

    Also, unlike other comments here, you'll notice that the rocket went (not to 35km altitude) to around 300 kilometres. The joke in our office among the trial managers has been that the HyShot team was trying NOT to shoot down the International Space Station (see my earlier comment). It appears that they also succeeded in this aim. (And, before anyone asks... yes, there is an international coordination of all such launches and they DO get a 'launch window' time when the rocket is unlikely to hit anything.)

    Well done to the Space Cadets!

    --
    Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.