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Yahoo May Be Facing Suit Over Chinese Journalist
WindBourne wrote to mention a story covered by Forbes, detailing a possible suit against Yahoo! as a result of their involvement in a Chinese Journalist's jailing. From the article: "Zhang Yu, representing the family of Shi Tao, said they were considering taking Yahoo Hong Kong Holdings to court either here or in the United States. 'We believe what (Yahoo) did was illegal so we are considering taking Yahoo to court,' Zhang told reporters, adding that Yahoo had refused to discuss the matter with him. "
considering taking Yahoo Hong Kong Holdings to court either here or in the United States.
Yahoo (along with IBM, cisco, MS, google, etc) are behaving badly in China - but WTF? Why in a US court?
Makes no sense
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
but remember, It's Casual Friday here in the states
That would serve as an example that hits those companies where it'll get their attention: in their wallets.
All of them claim they're in China because they have to be 'responsible' to their shareholders and make a profit; if the bad press from giving up names of 'dissidents' or other 'troublemakers' doesn't bother them, then the lost cash that results from lawsuits may convince them that morals and ethics aren't just abstract concepts.
All any of Google, Microsoft, or Yahoo! had to do was get creative about having trouble finding/retrieving the info the Chinese government was after, and delay it for as long as possible; surely they have some experience with that in dealing with the Chinese officials?
--- Asking inconvenient questions for over 30 years...
"...detailing a possible suit against Yahoo! as a result of their..."
"!" ends a sentence. A capital letter is necessary for the next sentence.
You! obviously! never! had! any! ideas! good! enough! to! capitalize! on! the! dotcom! boom!
Of course a corporation is should do anything it possible can to increase the value of options and stocks that the management owns! Who cares that some non-white, non-US, barely human ignorant smallish, dare I write "human", is sacrificed for the common good i.e. my stock options? Anything else is violation of free market principles and should be met the harshest possible sanctions, as long as it enriches me and the Republicans. Another tax break would be nice as well; I do make alot of donations after all, and I have a high RIO demand!
the future is here! When this gets old, we'll be filing suits over models wrestling in jello
Internet Archive: Live Music Archive
What if China only asked to see all of Yahoo's data so it could study how people looked at poolitically and sexually subversive sites in order to develop specifications for future filtering laws, and China then used that info to arrest dissidents. Could they still be sued for complying with China's laws?
It'd make for an interesting precedent either way, wouldn't it?
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
...but it won't make your T-Shirts or DVD Players any cheaper. Come on people! get off this and go to Wal-Mart and buy some Chinese made stuff. We can look away from the child labor and the insanely oppressive working conditions, can't we?
Yahoo is just playing ball. Why don't you?
Don't rock the boat or you just might have to buy a product made by Americans (Real ones, from America(TM))
Sounds like a way to describe his luck in life so far...
Evil sig is livE.
From the Chinese Constitution to 2004 here we have some selected excerpts.
(Try to imagine this being read aloud to you through a megaphone.)
Article 28 [Public Order] The State maintains public order and suppresses treasonable and other criminal activities that endanger State security; it penalizes actions that endanger public security and disrupt the socialist economy and other criminal activities, and punishes and reforms criminals.
Article 40 [Correspondence] The freedom and privacy of correspondence of citizens of the People's Republic of China are protected by law. No organization or individual may, on any ground, infringe upon the freedom and privacy of citizens' correspondence except in cases where, to meet the needs of state security or of investigation into criminal offenses, public security or procuratorial organs are permitted to censor correspondence in accordance with procedures prescribed by law.
Article 41 [Freedom of Speech] (1) Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the right to criticize and make suggestions to any state organ or functionary. Citizens have the right to make to relevant state organs complaints and charges against, or exposures of, any state organ or functionary for violation of the law or dereliction of duty; but fabrication or distortion of facts for the purpose of libel or frame-up is prohibited. (2) The state organ concerned must deal with complaints, charges or exposures made by citizens in a responsible manner after ascertaining the facts. No one may suppress such complaints, charges and exposure, or retaliate against the citizens making them. (3) Citizens who have suffered losses through infringement of their civic rights by any state organ or functionary have the right to compensation in accordance with the law.
Article 53 [Obedience to the Constitution] Citizens of the People's Republic of China must abide by the Constitution and the law, keep state secrets, protect public property, and observe labor discipline and public order and respect social ethics.
Article 54 [Integrity of the Motherland] It is the duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to safeguard the security, honor, and interests of the motherland; they must not commit acts detrimental to the security, honor and interests of the motherland.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
There's only one word I can say to celebrate this.
:)
Yahoo!!!!!!
This seems like a backfired attempt by Yahoo to comply with the Chinese government, much in the same way Google is censoring search results. TFA doesn't go into detail why Yahoo released the information, how it was released, or to whom it was released, but my speculation is that the government possibly theatened to block Yahoo or take some other measure if they didn't reveal the information they wanted.
This will not work at all. It's like suing a company in Canada because it disconnected a custome following a DMCA take-down request. In both cases, the ISP followed the law. And you certainly can't be sued for doing something legal that happenned in another country!!!
Bump this poster up to a five. Yahoo's dilemma (shared with others) is to chose either being in China, or not being in China, and the decision revolving around weither one likes the policies of said government. Now extend that criteria to all the other countries that companies do business in (including the US). Get's messy huh? So much for simplistic slashanswers to complicated problems.
Just a few weeks ago they turned over an american who was storing some illegal images in his yahoo online storage. Yahoo killed ASE too. Death to yahoo!
I am going to take an extremely unpopular position here, just to try and give people some perspective.
;) This supercedes many concerns, as it is rooted in the 2000 year history.
The flamebait version is China's censorship is not a bad thing.
Now to explain.
China is a much different country than the United States (as an American I will be referring to the US exclusively, a lot applies to other free western nations). Our country was founded on the principles of individual liberties and freedom. 200 years ago we got a fresh start and set out to do things right, and for the most part its worked pretty well.
Now lets look at China. This country has a written history of over 2000 years. In the last hundred years China has seen more revolution and social change than the U.S. ever has, even if you include the American Revolution. In the 1910s China overthrew their last Dynasty. What resulted was 10-20 years of civil war between regional warlords. Then communism came along, sweeping the nation with promises of food for everybody. They were opposed with the Nationalist party. 20 more years of civil war and struggle until the Nationalist party was forced to flee to Taiwan. Mao Zedong became president but had to step aside because of the political atmosphere. When he regained power in the late 60s he completely changed the country. The often quoted figures of 30million people dying because of reforms, combined with the systematic distruction of everything that represented Old Chinese Culture make him evil in the eyes of many. Yet he accomplished a lot of good for the country, uniting the people and restructuring the land.
This is a very important point, one of the most important things in Chinese culture is unity of the country. (the South shall rise again!
Since the Cultural Revolution many many changes have occured. Gaige Kaifang, or the Openness Policy was set into motion, and every year China moves closer and closer to a capitalist economy (In some ways it is indistinguishable).
The point of talking about all the revolutions and societal change in the last hundred years is to understand that China is not stable. The people do not know where things are going, or if where they are going is truely a good thing (Like it or not, not everyone thinks us westerners are perfect).
That said we can take a look at demographics for further evidence that we cannot judge the Chinese like we judge ourselves. The country is home to over 1.3 Billion people, hundreds of millions of which do not live in the cities. These country folk have enough trouble with running water and food, let alone electricity to worry about Google or Yahoo.
The central government is very strong, and it does a lot to keep the infrastructure of China solid and the people fed. Furthermore, there are millions of people living in many cities. By the nature of cities ideas can spread very fast. The main concern of the government is stability, they dont want hundreds of thousands of protestors upsetting the core of the country because they want a luxury like democracy.
Now that last statement is quite inflamatory, but think about it. We can have polarized debates here, we can have peta and the NRA, but the general stability of our country insures that millions of people arent going to hit the streets because of some nut with a megaphone.
Now before you all call me facist, I truely believe in the freedom of information as the savior of this world. I believe what is going on is "not good" but I just want to illustrate that we cannot hold everyone to some of our standards and not others. When the Chinese have advanced their economy, and they are buying toys manufactured by American kids, perhaps then they will have all the wonderful freedoms you and I take for granted everyday.
Until then we can only do our part, get educated. Understand that you cannot change entire cultures by force. Lead by example, and help out the PEOPLE that need help. You may disagree with these highly pu
"how can they call it a MINE if everything here is THEIRS?!?!" -Straight Jacket
What did Yahoo! do that was illegal? There is nothing said about what was illegal. You also seem to forget that Hong Kong is now part of China.
If Google provided the information to the government here instead of fighting, which I support the fight, Google was within the law. Yahoo! appears, but there is no documentation showing otherwise.
Can you show what they did that was illegal?
Fight Spammers!
Somehow, I don't think US courts or laws, for that matter, amount to a hill of rice in the PRC. If what they did was in the PRC and was legal in the PRC then the lawsuit is baseless.
This is sort of like the Iranian government trying the Danish paper in an Iranian court for the stupid drawings they published and expecting the ruling and sentence to matter anywhere but in Iran.
I do not see what the big debate is about Google And Yahoo, and other companies censoring search terms for Freedom, democracy, or any of that. I mean who cares? These words are virtually useless, why would you even search for something like that? What would you rather have, google disobeying chinsese law, getting blocked, or worse their employees run over by tanks?
And this is a shock that when you tell a company you are thinking of sueing them that they won't talk to you? Besides doesn't Yahoo censore everything just like Google? The only reason Google was such a big deal was because of their motto.
You win a prize for the first bad analogy. If the Iranians owned the Danish newspaper, your analogy would be valid.
Google is NOW censoring info, the same as MSN and Yahoo! has for several years. But unlike them, they notify the users.Yahoo! (and MSN) QUIETLY do this
In addition, unlike MSN and Yahoo!, Google does not give up information that allows a gov to persecute its people. For that, see this article and several others about Yahoo!/MSN.
The verdict was correct according to Chinese law (the crime was providing documents labeled with secrecy to foreign powers).
Since China makes its owan laws, and since any company entering China needs to abide by those laws, there is little point in suing Yahoo. They did what they had to do, and Shi Tao knew what he was doing.
The only way to change things is to change the laws of PRC. This is mainly a task for the Chinese people, but international pressure is also welcome (of an initiated sort that doesn't slap the Chinese in the face).
Things ARE changing, and fast too. Keep your criticism balanced and well-informed, and you might even have an influence on China.
if they sue they can sue in US courts... as a multi-national, yahoo doesn't have to be held accountable to chinese law, ony the law in whichever country it is sued. This is so brilliant, and a way to make our mis-behaving multi-nationals pay for their human rights violations.
1. U.S. Alien Tort Claims Act of 1789
2. Torture Victim Prevention Act (TVPA) of 1991
The family of the reporter arrested by the Chinese Gestapo can sue Yahoo! under both laws. They enable foreigners, in an American court, to sue foreign entities which commit violations of human rights.
I have one word of advice to the family. Namely, the family can (under both laws) and should sue Jerry Yang, in addition to Yahoo!. Yang expressly supported the actions of the company and has repeatedly bragged about Yahoo!'s entry into China. Yang also has $1 billion of net worth.
Show, to Yahoo! and Jerry Yang, the same mercy that Yahoo! and Yang showed to the reported arrested and tortured by Beijing.
What could they sue Yahoo on? That a search engine that specializes in selling search information to ad companies would not tell information? So there's no expectation of privacy there, you may have some very stupid assumption that Yahoo, Google, MSN, etc will hold your privacy in more importance than you yourself do. Really, come on they are selling your information to others people, they're whole business model is about profiting off your personal information. That's before you even get into the whole it's a legal supoena request, a company operating inside a country has to abide by that country's rules or get out.
As we've seen in the past some lawyer could probably be able to make some weird twisted case (i.e. all the didn't have a sticker saying "don't use use electric drill as a haircurler"), but removing those situations I don't see what the users expecation is.
Get 'em. And make it hurt.
It's the only way thy will understand Human right is not for sale. Let's finance it now, this could be a great warning to the Microsoft and Googles of this world!
The central government is very strong, and it does a lot to keep the infrastructure of China solid and the people fed. Furthermore, there are millions of people living in many cities. By the nature of cities ideas can spread very fast. The main concern of the government is stability, they dont want hundreds of thousands of protestors upsetting the core of the country because they want a luxury like democracy.
Well the funny thing is that when these same inland Chineese move to Hong Kong, or to the United States where fredom isn't restricted as much, then why it it that they seem to have no problem adjusting to this "culturally disruptive" freedom in a matter of days? Sure HK is rich now, but it had almost nothing (but a huge amount of people and freedom) just after WW2. Was there chaos? sure, disorder? Sure - but it was mostle directed into productive activities because people had the freedoms to direct in into productive activities. It simply amazes me how many ways are there for people to say that rights are subjective and dependent on circumstances. It simply amazes me that when others judge by facts, history, and what is known to work that they are called closed minded or kneejerk - I think those would be more appropiate lables for the Chineese government. FYI, since people who are free are more efficient and more productive, what we should really be saying is that China can't afford the "luxury" of communisim.
There are an infinite number of nice sounding excuses to shit on peoples freedoms. We've herd them all before: how protestantisim would rip the western world apart. How free press had to be controlled to ensure order. How people need to be disarmed to stop violence. Like usual, they are all shit. If China really really needs stability, then what they really really need is democracy so that people can change government when it needs to change without a violent revolt.