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U.S. Governments Advised to Use Open Source

An anonymous reader writes "LinuxDevices is reporting that non-profit public policy research group, Committee for Economic Development, has released a 72-page report that takes a look at open standards, open source software, and 'open innovation.' From the article: 'The report concludes that openness should be promoted as a matter of public policy, in order to foster innovation and economic growth in the U.S. and world economies.' The full text [PDF] of the report is also available for download from the CED site."

176 comments

  1. LinuxDevices' summary is a tad misleading... by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 5, Informative

    From LinuxDevices' summary:
    Open Source Software

            * Governments should not mandate any particular license, such as requiring open source software only; however...

                        o No citizen should be required to use the hardware or software of any particular vendor

                        o International procurements should also supprt inter-operability requirements
    And directly from the report (boldface mine):
    The Council believes there are certain critical functions of government that should be conducted solely with interoperable technology; in these critical areas, no citizen should be required to use the hardware or software of any particular vendor.
    It's fortunate that LinuxDevices included a link to the PDF so we could read it in its entirity (plus, although the report is 72 pages long, only 44 of those pages are the actual report).
    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:LinuxDevices' summary is a tad misleading... by TheLinuxSRC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you are implying that those statements negate each other I don't see it. No where in the second statement is a particular license mandated nor is OSS mandated. Interoperability, on the other hand is mandated. In other words, if Microsoft wants to supply software that is interoperable with other software that a citzen can use, all is well. Now getting Microsoft to interoperate with *anything* is where you might run into trouble :) It seems as though this is exactly the same thing as what Massachusettes is running into with regard to OpenDocument.

      Just my 2cents.

    2. Re:LinuxDevices' summary is a tad misleading... by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful


      I am not implying that the statements negate each other. I am implying that by incompletely quoting the report (leaving out the key phrase: 'certain critical functions of government'), LinuxDevices encourages the false assumption that the Council is recommending that interoperable technology be mandated for all facets of government, not merely for 'certain critical functions'. That is why I characterized LinuxDevices' summary as 'a tad misleading', rather than 'grossly misleading'.

      --
      ____

      ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    3. Re:LinuxDevices' summary is a tad misleading... by Total_Wimp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      LinuxDevices' summary is a tad misleading...

      At least it's closer to correct than the Slashdot headline. Open standards, which the report encourages, is a far cry from open source, which the report specifically stays neutral on.

      TW

    4. Re:LinuxDevices' summary is a tad misleading... by 4of12 · · Score: 1
      if Microsoft wants to supply software that is interoperable

      Microsoft will be happy to $upply $oftware that i$ interoperable

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    5. Re:LinuxDevices' summary is a tad misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is ironical that it makes such a report on a PDF document, which such document format doesn't even follow such standards as they want to acheive. There is some obvious confusion there. PDF is a patented format. Although there are non-commercial software that can make the document, there are glitches. Many government agencies require people to download and fill-in a PDF document for "official" use or likewise. There aren't really strict laws that state that PDF is the only option, but it is the only option provided.

  2. Share With Other Countries by MissingRainbow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I always wondered why governments cannot see the benefits without the help of any study. Anyway, I am currently downloading the document. But all governments should be informed of such useful studies. What is good for US governments might be useful for other governments too!

    1. Re:Share With Other Countries by eln · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not that governments can't see the benefits, it's that "open source software" as a concept, or various open source companies as a group, can't afford to pay for, or don't want to pay for, the kind of access (lobbyists) necessary to get get this sort of thing done.

    2. Re:Share With Other Countries by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 2, Informative
      I always wondered why governments cannot see the benefits without the help of any study.

      Because the clueless people in control need a stack of official-looking paper full of things they don't understand in order to reassure themselves and others that some non-clueless people think it's a good idea.

      Really, all these "studies" could be filled with nothing but Pink Floyd lyrics after the first few pages, and nobody would ever notice.

    3. Re:Share With Other Countries by east+coast · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I always wondered why governments cannot see the benefits without the help of any study.

      Perhaps it's because the guys in control of the purse string and those making the grand decisions are honest enough to say "I don't know about this, let's get an experts opinion. On the way maybe they can answer a few questions for us." That's my guess. It's a far better system than the airchair engineers here on Slashdot who think that they have some grand insight into the workings of the universe even tho they're normally just self-titled "geeks" who think that a 30 minute show on the Discovery Channel makes them qualified to make sweeping statements on any given topic instead of asking questions on what they think they know.

      It reminds me of a recent story from my brother; He sent my 14 year old nephew out to start the car on a cold day to let it warm up as he got ready to go someplace. My nephew returned after starting the car and said that he now knows how to drive... It's a sad statement but there are a ton of people out there who think this way. While I'm not saying that someone's ideas should be discounted if they don't have a masters in some field of study at the same time we should be honest enough to admit that there are areas we know little about. Admitting to that shouldn't make the confessor a target of bad jokes, it should be a sign that they're willing to learn from those who know more.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    4. Re:Share With Other Countries by jimcooncat · · Score: 3, Funny

      Ok, then don't give me that do goody-good bullshit.

    5. Re:Share With Other Countries by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 1

      I think I'd be more willing to read them if I knew half way in to it I'd be reaidng Floyd lyrics....

      --
      500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
    6. Re:Share With Other Countries by Pentavirate · · Score: 1

      I'd mod you up funny! Some people must not know their Pink Floyd lyrics.

    7. Re:Share With Other Countries by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      I always wondered why governments cannot see the benefits without the help of any study.
      Because all their other information about this kind of thing comes directly from lobbyists bankrolled by the proprietary software industry.
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    8. Re:Share With Other Countries by ScottLindner · · Score: 1

      The reason is politics. They need a ton of independent studies which are never truly unbiased, just to begin to get to a good answer. If they just made a decision without doing so, it would be politicly charged, and you'd never trust a single decision they made.. even if it was the right decision for the right reasons.

      It's because politicians are so inherently corrupt at their very soul, that they need to do this.

      --
      Slashdot.. where people join together in deliberate ignorance.
    9. Re:Share With Other Countries by jimcooncat · · Score: 1

      thanks, ...and maniacs don't blow holes in bandsmen by remote control.

    10. Re:Share With Other Countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to say this, but you must be one of those guys who believe functional requirement specification is a total waste of time and money too.

    11. Re:Share With Other Countries by Pollardito · · Score: 1

      i think if you know anything about how hard it is to explain this stuff to old people, you'd not be surprised that the geezers in our government are slow to catch on.

    12. Re:Share With Other Countries by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Is an air chair an aluminium garden chair attached to large helium balloons?

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    13. Re:Share With Other Countries by east+coast · · Score: 1

      Heh. Sorry about that. But it's a good example to show the dangers of the "airchair" engineer mentality.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    14. Re:Share With Other Countries by kimvette · · Score: 1

      Well, Pink Floyd lyrics would entice me to read it! :)

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    15. Re:Share With Other Countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here, here.

      In the UK with devolution we seem to have to have 3 separate studies and 3 separate decisions for each positive step forward.

      Scotland usually leads. Then England does their study and decides to do the same thing but doesn't seem to do it quite as well. Then Wales wait 2 years and decide that whilst they think it's a great idea (eg saying no to passive smoking) they can't really be arsed.

      United Kingdom ... my arse!

  3. Commie Pinko's by tradiuz · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wonder how many old guard politicians will be considering anything "open" and "free" to be of a Communist nature?

    1. Re:Commie Pinko's by Captain+Zep · · Score: 1
      Remember, freedom is slavery. Best stay away from it.

      Z.

    2. Re:Commie Pinko's by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 1

      Communism = old and busted
      Terrorism = teh new hawtness

    3. Re:Commie Pinko's by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Hey, according to the doctrine, Communism is anything BUT free and open. Remember, iron curtain and all that? Freedom and openness is, if anything, the good ol' American way!

      I'd expect some of the "new right wingers" to oppose it rather than the old school Reps.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Commie Pinko's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone who thinks that open source is communism needs to take anything said about open markets and do the following:

      :%s/open market/open source/g

  4. Even mentions Slashdot! by tcopeland · · Score: 3, Interesting
    From page 32:
    A "Slashdot for prior art" should be the goal.
    Very nice. And, getindi!
  5. Devil's Advocate... by pillbug22 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "should be promoted as a matter of public policy, in order to foster innovation and economic growth in the U.S. and world economies."

    Devil's advocate: I've found that as a general rule, people are motivated by money, thus motivated to invent when a paycheck is on the line. Plus, if a "no name" from a small economy invents something new and grand enough for everyone to want it, then by chargin for their product they would be causing their econmy to grow.

    ...just thinking out loud...

    1. Re:Devil's Advocate... by Tweekster · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      well your general rule is simply wrong.

      --
      The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
    2. Re:Devil's Advocate... by kfg · · Score: 1

      . . .thus motivated to invent when a paycheck is on the line.

      Labor can be motivated by money. Invention cannot.

      . . .then by chargin for their product they would be causing their econmy to grow.

      Simply charging for something does not create wealth, it just moves money around. Money is just a bit of paper that represents something. If there is no something behind the money there is very little point in moving it.

      There is very little something behind most software, thus most software expenditures are a drain on the economy, because they sap real wealth.

      Excess of money much beyond your real needs does not actually aqcuire you wealth. It acquires you power, the ability to get people to serve you, for the money.

      Power does not cause economies to grow. It just pools the money into the pockets of the powerful. The most stable growth economies are those where the acquisition of power is limited and the disparity between the richest and poorest is the smallest.

      As was once said about the Danes:

      "Few own two good coats, but none go without."

      KFG

    3. Re:Devil's Advocate... by Lucidus · · Score: 1

      "Labor can be motivated by money. Invention cannot."

      Another excellent post, kfg. Damn, you're good!

    4. Re:Devil's Advocate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Labor can be motivated by money. Invention cannot.

      Huh? I guess I just don't see why somebody can't invent something because they are getting paid to think about the problem. Why can invention not be motivated by money? I could spend my days on the beach but since I get paid to work, I work. And in order to keep my job, I have to produce. And part of that production is coming up with new ideas (ie. inventions).

    5. Re:Devil's Advocate... by panthan · · Score: 1
      . . .thus motivated to invent when a paycheck is on the line.

      Labor can be motivated by money. Invention cannot.

      True enough, but as Edison noted, invention requires a lot of work. And turning an invention into a product is likely to require a great deal of labor.

      . .then by chargin for their product they would be causing their econmy to grow.

      Simply charging for something does not create wealth, it just moves money around. Money is just a bit of paper that represents something. If there is no something behind the money there is very little point in moving it.

      Just charging for something doesn't even move money around; I could charge a thousand dollars to smile at people, but all it would mean is that I wouldn't do much smiling. Charging for something people are willing to pay for moves money around; creating something that people are willing to pay for is the creation of wealth.

      Your statement works as well for books and music as for software. Stephen King writes books that people want to read. Thus his output is "wealth". It takes a lot of work to turn his ideas into readable prose, and if he didn't get any return, he probably wouldn't do it. If he didn't have the talent, he'd have to pay somebody to help. That labor may not have much to do with invention, but it is necessary.

      (disclaimer: I have never read a novel by Stephen King; I am making no judgment on the "readability" of his prose.)

    6. Re:Devil's Advocate... by kfg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why can invention not be motivated by money?

      See cancer research. Money motivates you to show up to collect the money. It can do nothing to motivate invention, or even the inventive spirit. You either have it or you don't. If you have it, you will pay to be allowed to invent. If you do not have it you can spend all the time you want at your job, but history will almost certainly record your life as having been wasted on passing busy time to collect a wage.

      I invent on both the technology and art sides of the coin (Yesterday I spent working on a fully analog optical controler, today I'm writing a classic piano rag). Beyond the basic necessities of life my only requirements are to be left the bloody hell alone to invent. I do not need pay to produce. I need pay to be reduced to servitude.

      If I were made a gift of a gold ingot I would immediately seek some idiot who thinks that the gold itself is of great value, and trade it to him for the tools and materials of invention.

      And in order to keep my job, I have to produce.

      Typing code is not equal to invention. It is mere labor. Most code written has been written before, better. Indeed, much code that is going to be written today, and go into production, is code that was abandoned as a bad idea decades ago, but people are "motivated" by money to recapitulate it out of ignorance.

      See "Code Monkey."

      See also Thoreau:

      On the state of the software industry:

      "Most men would feel insulted if it were proposed to employ them in throwing stones over a wall, and then in throwing them back, merely that they might earn their wages. But many are no more worthily employed now."

      Of course these men are ignorant of their state; and so defend it vigorously.

      On production:

      "As for the pyramids, there is nothing to wonder at in them so much as the fact that so many men could be found degraded enough to spend their lives constructing a tomb for some ambitious booby, whom it would have been wiser and manlier to have drowned in the Nile, and then given his body to the dogs."

      See Bill Gates and Larry Ellison.

      KFG

    7. Re:Devil's Advocate... by Rohan427 · · Score: 1

      Truely creative minds create and innovate not for money, but because they enjoy it. Once politics, money, corporations, and the like step in, all the fun in creating is lost. It becomes a major PITA and the creators stop creating.

      Alas, this is exactly what's happening in this country (the US).

      PGA

    8. Re:Devil's Advocate... by kfg · · Score: 1

      And turning an invention into a product is likely to require a great deal of labor.

      Software requires a good deal of invention to create, if it is, indeed, inventive. It requires a certain amount of labor to turn into a product.

      It requires almost nothing to actually "produce." Hence the great sums of money accumulated by the heads of the major software houses for doing, and producing, essentially, nothing, but recieving large sums for it.

      Just charging for something doesn't even move money around; I could charge a thousand dollars to smile at people, but all it would mean is that I wouldn't do much smiling.

      Implicit in my statement was that a transaction was sucessfully concluded.

      Stephen King writes books that people want to read. Thus his output is "wealth".

      Argument ad crumenam.

      At the moment I am actually making about half of my income as a street musician. I happen to believe that what I do is of actual value. I make people happy. Happy is of supreme value. Certainly of more real value than some stupid lump of gold. "Price" is not synonomous with "value."

      I am not so bold as to believe that what I do creates wealth. It just moves money from somebody else's pocket into my own. When I make a flute or a bicycle I create wealth.

      It takes a lot of work to turn his ideas into readable prose, and if he didn't get any return, he probably wouldn't do it.

      The piano rag that I'm writing today, and will likely be writting days from now, and will certainly be practicing how to play for many, many hours, I do not expect to ever recieve a dime from. I enjoy the process itself and pay to be allowed to do it, and it is a gift for a loved one. Giving shall be my recompense.

      What "pay" did the Neandertal inventor of the flute, or his cave painting brethern, recieve, other than the joy of creating and sharing the creation?

      Invention is not done for money, it is done for love. Money just pays the bills so that you can be left alone to create, which the truely inventive will likely do unto their own destruction if necessary.

      See Amadeus.

      Of course there are those that love money, but their inventions almost always betray this sort of love.

      See Microsoft, the root of all evil.

      Oddly enough it is Microsoft I cite above, not Bill.

      Bill is power mad. Money is just the way he keeps score and his "lifestyle" is just a public display of his power, because his ultimate desire is for his power to compel adoration.

      I have never met the man myself, but I know people who have (someone I used to hold on my knee and show how to type things into the keyboard now reports to him), and I'm certainly well acquainted with the "type."

      KFG

    9. Re:Devil's Advocate... by HardCase · · Score: 1

      Oh boy, you just opened the door for the clove cigarette smoking, beret wearing theorists to start expounding their utterly improbably drivel about the nature of man in the consumer society.

      Air America needs them to listen to their radios instead of reading /. - how dare you?

      Shame on you.

    10. Re:Devil's Advocate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found that people invent whether a paycheque is on the line or not, and that if the paycheque is their goal, then their invention is usually crap. They care about the money, not the invention. Really great ideas have also been turned to crap by people looking for a quick buck. Solving a problem well is what motivates many people. Robbing a bank could just as easily motivate someone in the parents estimation as inventing something (and the chance of reward much quicker and more certain). Money does not equal invention. Money prostitutes invention. Great ideas are like great sex: paying for it doesn't make it better.

  6. Outweigh lobbists/funding? by redelm · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I don't doubt that open formats/stds/source is in the public interest. That's why copyrights expire (eventually, at least in theory). Protecting IP rights is in the individual's interest. It then becomes a matter of balancing rights to achieve the desired aims (usually economic growth).

    The problem is that US legislators are often unduly influenced [bought] by campaign contributions. This will tip the scale. I give you the Sunny Bono Copyright Extention Act of 1996 as evidence.

    1. Re:Outweigh lobbists/funding? by colmore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It seems very clear to me that the results of research or engineering paid for with public funds should be held in the public domain.

      I think ALL government science should be done under some form of BSD license.

      --
      In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
    2. Re:Outweigh lobbists/funding? by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Mostly agree, but that really depends upon the purpose of the money. Lets say I get a grant from the government to open a research facility. The grants purpose is purly economic development. IE they are interested in new research happening in XY city for the purpose of economic growth. Mandating that research be public domain wouldn't give that grant earner any chance of making money to get off the government tit. While one could make the argument that the government shouldn't be giving out money for this purpose, it certainly does happen.

    3. Re:Outweigh lobbists/funding? by ClockN · · Score: 0

      So this is why he was run ito a tree. Hmmm, I always wondered.

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
  7. My favorite part by JPribe · · Score: 1, Interesting
    FTpdf:
    The Patent and Trademark Office should make increased use of the Internet in seeking to document "prior art," particularly in the area of information technology, where the Internet provides new capabilities to reach the most knowledgeable commentators. A "Slashdot for prior art" should be the goal.
    /. ref wins!!!
    --

    Why go fast when you can go anywhere? O|||||||O
    1. Re:My favorite part by Urusai · · Score: 1

      They seemed to have confused Slashdot and Google.

    2. Re:My favorite part by cgorman56 · · Score: 1

      who's they?

  8. 72 Pages??? by alphasubzero949 · · Score: 0, Troll

    Typical government waste. I can find a single web site that will give you 25 reasons that does not require 72 pages of padding.

    But hey, since MS has filled almost everyone's pockets at every level of government, we won't begin to see any mass adoption of OSS, now will we?

    1. Re:72 Pages??? by Billosaur · · Score: 2, Informative
      Typical government waste.

      From LinuxDevices.com: The report was released by the Committee for Economic Development (CED), a non-profit, non-partisan public policy research organization comprised of about 200 senior corporate executives and university leaders.

      This isn't government waste -- this is a public group trying to advise the government. Of course, being non-partisan, the Demopublicans and Republicrats in Congress won't pay attention.

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    2. Re:72 Pages??? by bladesjester · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand the meaning of non-profit.

      Having worked for one for several years (and having been in contact with others), I can tell you that most of them get their funding through grants which generally originate from the government (and occasionally from trusts set up by individuals or corporations).

      --
      Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
  9. Open Source by UMNbandgeek · · Score: 1

    I don't see how using open source would help the economy. In order to boost an economy, people need to buy things, and last time I checked, free open source software was *free*. Free means it doesn't cost money, and if it doesn't cost money, no one is buying it. If enough people switch to free software, the economy will be hurt rather than helped.

    1. Re:Open Source by celardore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe if 'the economy' didn't have to spend thousands upon thousands on Microsoft licences, there would be more money to spend in areas other than Microsoft.

    2. Re:Open Source by JPribe · · Score: 0

      Consider the cashflow in supporting the OSS clueless users, or training all those .gov drones to use the stuff...$$$$$$$

      --

      Why go fast when you can go anywhere? O|||||||O
    3. Re:Open Source by UMNbandgeek · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter how we spend the money, only that it gets spent on something, and as long as that something came from inside the country.

    4. Re:Open Source by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 2, Funny
      It doesn't matter how we spend the money, only that it gets spent on something, and as long as that something came from inside the country.

      Exactly. There are a lot of brainwashed free software people out there that just don't seem to understand that what's good for Microsoft is what is good for America. America isn't into manufacturing goods as much as it used to so it needs to rely on new and innovative companies like Microsoft to market technology, services, and intellectual property to remain prosperous. We should be applauding Microsoft for their success, not discouraging their growth.

    5. Re:Open Source by howlingmadhowie · · Score: 1

      and to help you do that, i've just written a handy 'hello world' program in c. i'll sell you the binary for 1000$.
      don't worry, you don't have to decide now, just get back to me as soon as you're ready.

      howie

    6. Re:Open Source by dsci · · Score: 1
      Oh yes it DOES depend on how we spend the money. What kind of nonsense is this?

      Public money that is currently going to MS (and other commercial licenses) COULD go to:

      • AIDS Research
      • Leukemia and Cancer Research
      • National Defense
      • Space Exploration
      • Social Programs
      • Back to the TAXPAYER if not NEEDED to buy software


      as just a few examples. Really, do you actually PAY taxes?
      --
      Computational Chemistry products and services.
    7. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I'd say it rather clearly does matter how the money is spent; money spent, e.g., to pay people to develop software which would be then released under an open-source license (which would be a frequent use of public funds if government adopted a preference for OSS) increases the size of the "digital commons" and the base on which all inventors can build, and thus is an investment in what amounts to share, useful, productive capital.

      And the special thing about that shared capital is that what one user can produce with it isn't decreased by how many other people are using it, as would be the case with most shared physical capital.

      Further, once OSS is developed to fill even a niche need, you won't have as much expenditures are repetitive in-house or contractor development of similar tools for different public agencies, as even where the existing product isn't exactly what is needed, it will be easy enough to instead spend resources modifying it to serve the new units need, without negotiating rights, etc. Will that reduce the money spent in the economy? No, what it will do is either (a) reduce the drag on the economy from growing government debt, or (b) reduce the drag on the economy from taxes, or (c) improve the effectiveness of government programs as the money being spent in them is spent less on redundant development or purchase of software licenses and more on acheiving the purpose of the government program.

    8. Re:Open Source by UMNbandgeek · · Score: 1

      Actually, I take this back. By not paying for software, people have more money that can be invested, and THAT will boost the economy more than consumption. Of course, it only helps if people invest, if they just sit on the money it harms the economy.

    9. Re:Open Source by hunterx11 · · Score: 1
      Life, which you so nobly serve, comes from destruction, disorder and chaos. Take this empty glass. Here it is, peaceful, serene and boring. But if it is...destroyed...look at all these little things. So busy now. Notice how each one is useful. What a lovely ballet ensues so full of form and color. Now, think about all those people that created them. Technicians, engineers, hundreds of people who'll be able to feed their children tonight so those children can grow up big and strong and have little teeny weeny children of their own, and so on and so forth. Thus, adding to the great chain... of life. You see, Father, by creating a little destruction, I'm actually encouraging life. In reality, you and I are in the same business. Cheers.

      Obviously Zorg was right. Closed source software isn't enough, even. We need to start smashing computers so we can hire people to fix them, creating more jobs and improving the economy.

      --
      English is easier said than done.
    10. Re:Open Source by moultano · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It doesn't matter how we spend the money, only that it gets spent on something, and as long as that something came from inside the country.

      Wow. I can see consumerist education has really taken root. Believe it or not, it is not your public duty to buy more stuff.

      Suppose the government spent all of its money paying people to dig holes and fill them back in. It's spending, and its certainly spending within this country, but it clearly isn't good for the economy. Why do you think that is?

      Spending doesn't boost an economy. Useful production does. Spending only has a positive effect on the economy to the extend that it promotes useful production. For more information on this, look up Opportunity Costs. Also, if you are concerned about spending money on American goods as opposed to others, may I suggest that you read up on the Ricardian theory of International Trade.

    11. Re:Open Source by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't see how using open source would help the economy. In order to boost an economy, people need to buy things, and last time I checked, free open source software was *free*. Free means it doesn't cost money, and if it doesn't cost money, no one is buying it. If enough people switch to free software, the economy will be hurt rather than helped.

      This is why Econ-101 is mandatory for most 4 year degrees. Most software is tools. That is to say, most is infrastructure cost for a business or individual. There are a few exceptions, like games where it is an end product. People, companies, and organizations buy tools to accomplish other tasks. Take automobiles, for example. Businesses and individuals use them to get from place to place and to transport things. They are tools. Suppose all of a sudden some buddhist monk has a revelation. Energy and matter exist only in the mind so using this simple technique you can instantly transport yourself and everything you are carrying anywhere you want. *Poof* the world is a very different place. Free transportation takes the world by storm. All the auto companies that don't sell recreational vehicles go under. What a huge loss to the economy right? All those billions aren't being spent building cars and selling cars and buying cars. Hundreds of thousands of auto workers, salesmen, and managers need to find new jobs. Other industries take a huge hit as well, like insurance, gas, and steel. It's a disaster.

      But wait, lets think about this just a little bit more. Most of the people in the US still have jobs and now they all have eliminated a huge expense from their budget. They don't have to buy a car, insurance, or gas. What do all these people do with the money? Well, they certainly vacation a lot more, since travel is now so cheap. They buy bigger houses. They buy more clothes. They invest and they spend. And all those companies that used to buy trucks for freight? Now they have fewer expenses. They can lower their prices or invest in R&D or expansion.

      There are a whole lot of things wrong with my previous example. Learning how to teleport using our minds would be much, much more disruptive than widespread adoption of free software. The point I hope it illustrates is that making tools more efficiently (the shared cost of open source with little or no overhead is much less than the cost of buying closed source software that does the same. It is like the ultimate price cut. Pay only for what you need that no one else has already paid for. Everyone saves a big expense, an expense that exists solely due to an inefficient production and distribution system. It does not take money out of the economy, it merely shifts that money around to production of end-user products rather than intermediate tools.

      In any case it is a mistake to believe open source software is free. If you get a new car for helping someone build a house is the car free? It cost no money. Open source software is similar. You pay by agreeing to the terms of the license. Your payment for downloading a copy of OpenOffice is that you agree if you make any changes to the code and distribute that code, you let everyone else who agrees to the license have it too. Some would call this very cheap. Others would disagree, but I don't think it is possible to say it is free as in beer.

      What it is is very, very efficient. Since it costs basically nothing to make a copy, you pay only for changes you want made and you pay that cost for everyone after you. Looking back at the auto industry, a man came up with a way to build cars faster and cheaper. His name was Ford and he applied the assembly line to the auto industry. Now fewer people could make more cars, faster, with less training. It did not ruin the economy it made a huge positive impact. Similarly, the availability to everyone of code and binaries to accomplish most any task will not ruin the computer industry, rather it will make it more efficient and benefit all.

      Given the efficiency of this method, it is almost certai

    12. Re:Open Source by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful

      See: Broken Window Fallacy

      The bottom line is that spending the money on something else instead of proprietary software licenses makes the economy more efficient, and is therefore a good thing.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    13. Re:Open Source by bigpat · · Score: 1

      I don't see how using open source would help the economy. In order to boost an economy, people need to buy things, and last time I checked, free open source software was *free*. Free means it doesn't cost money, and if it doesn't cost money, no one is buying it. If enough people switch to free software, the economy will be hurt rather than helped.

      Buying is only a portion of what is needed to have a better economy, don't forget selling. If free software makes it easier for people to produce other things and sell them, then the overall economy will be helped.

      Software vendor lock-in creates an artificial scarcity, which is no better for the overall economy than if any necessary good or service goes through an artificial price increase due to some price fixing arrangement.

      Eventually it all comes down to human labor, if people can do more, produce more and can do it with less time and capital (money) then the overall economy will be helped. If people don't have to pay for some types of software, they can be more productive without requiring additional capital spending.

    14. Re:Open Source by budgenator · · Score: 1

      In the old days I'd buy a book to document something in Linux and would get the latest slackware cd for free in effect, buy documentation get software for free, or I'd buy windows and get the book, in effect buying the software and getting the documention for free; now with windows I don't get the book! Now I buy SuSE for free and get paid installation support I'll never need or I can buy Windows and get support I have to pay extra for; the net effect is I'm going to pay about the same.

      Might it not be more effective for a government to get free software and invest the saving in employee training and support from a local guru and keep the money local; stimulating the localities economy than it is to send to money across the nation or ocean?

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    15. Re:Open Source by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Others would disagree, but I don't think it is possible to say it is free as in beer.

      In fact, I do disagree. The free as in beer model is someone gives you a beer, you consume the beer. It has not cost you anything. Now let us go backwards to what comes before the previously quoted sentence:

      Open source software is similar. You pay by agreeing to the terms of the license. Your payment for downloading a copy of OpenOffice is that you agree if you make any changes to the code and distribute that code, you let everyone else who agrees to the license have it too.

      That doesn't change the applicability of free-as-in-beer in the least. Also, not all Open Source licenses work this way. AFAIK the only major one that does is the GPL. BSD is no less open (depending on the definition of open - but remember that "open source" used to mean you got to see the source, not that you got to do anything in particular with it) but you do not have to release your changes to the code if you use the code.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Open Source by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      Spending doesn't boost an economy. Useful production does.

      I disagree. I believe ideology drives economy. Currently, the American ideology is that we need to be world police. Don't believe me? Look at the budget: http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/06feb20061 000/www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy07/pdf/budget/tab les.pdf

      ~ 500 billion dollars to DOD and Homeland security The next biggest expenditure is Social Security, which _we already paid for out of our own pocket_

      Note the deficit spending at the bottom of each year through 2011.

      That is only with government spending. Societal spending is also driven by ideology. Young people believe that they need hip clothes, cell-phones, pop music, and iPods, so they figure out some way to acquire the goods and services that they need. Older Younger people (~25-35) believe that they need a nice new car and a nice large house, so they work hard to acquire those things. Etc, etc, This is nothing new.

      There are examples of other people that don't share these ideologies both here in the US and in other places, and they spend their time and/or money doing other things.

    17. Re:Open Source by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      This is incredibly shortsighted. You seem to assume that if a lot of money wasn't flowing to Microsoft, it would just be going elsewhere, to China or something. This isn't true, the U.S. could still have it's dominant position in software and information technologies, without having crushed the field in the way that Microsoft has. In fact, the dominance of Microsoft and our economic reliance on it can only be a bad thing in the long run, since it means we're setting ourselves up for a great fall when Microsoft finally gets so big, it can't innovate anymore and becomes vulnerable to a small, more nimble, foreign competitor.

      A more open desktop environment, without the prohibitively high licensing fees that Microsoft charges, could lead to a lot more small software companies doing customization and integration work, rather than just everyone accepting a one-size-fits-all "solution" from Microsoft. For example, I could think of a lot of things that we do in my workplace with Microsoft tools that really aren't well suited to the tools we're using, but since they're there and we've paid for them, that's what gets used. If we had been using a free desktop, we might have the budget left over for custom software for everybody; plus, we'd probably be more efficient.

      The cost of inefficiency is embedded into the price of Microsoft's products. Making ourselves more efficient -- which free and open tools would do -- and eliminating the overhead of the "Windows tax" would help our economy in the long run. Trying to prop up the trade imbalance and the economy in general with a monopoly that's based not on innovation and consumer choice but on vendor lock-in is just setting ourselves up for a great fall later on down the road.

      It's your sort of shortsighted protectionist thinking that leads to trade barriers that do more harm than good, and prevent US firms from competing based on quality and innovation.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    18. Re:Open Source by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. If someone gives me a beer, it is mine to do with what I will. I can drink it and all is good. Open source licenses, however, do not quite fit with that analogy. First, the user is making a copy. They go out and get the software from somewhere, usually it is downloaded. This is like someone setting up a refrigerator with a sign on it that says if you agree to this license which is posted, you may take a free beer. If you don't agree to the license, it is illegal for you to take a beer, since the law forbids it.

      I may hove oversimplified by using the GPL as my example. The point is you have to agree to the license. The GPL license requires you give back any changes before republishing. The BSD license requires that you keep the copyright and credits in anything you republish. That is not free, per se, but just really cheap.

    19. Re:Open Source by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      We need to start smashing computers so we can hire people to fix them, creating more jobs and improving the economy.

      Why not just smash people any pay people to fix them?

      Actually, let's cut out the middleman, let's just smash people and take their money.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    20. Re:Open Source by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Free to use, less than free to distribute. Actually, you can't redistribute beer willy-nilly, either. Individuals can give away beer, but there are laws regarding giving away beer if you're a company/corporation and in some states (like California) corporations can not give away beer. I work in a Tribal Casino in Northern California and we are not permitted to give away free alcohol.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re:Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      last time I checked, free open source software was *free*. Free means it doesn't cost money

      Check again, idiot.

      Never heard the expressions "free as in beer" and "free as in speech"?

    22. Re:Open Source by rcg40 · · Score: 1

      The alphabet is free. Java was designed to be free, but MS fixed it so that non-MS versions would bomb on MS-Windows.

    23. Re:Open Source by corblix · · Score: 1
      This is why Econ-101 is mandatory for most 4 year degrees.

      Much of the rest of your article is on target, but, sadly, I don't think this statement works.

      In my experience (undergrad, grad, and faculty at several major U.S. universities) economics is rarely a degree requirement, except for business and economics degrees. Further, a basic econ class is going to get you supply & demand, and concepts like profit, marginal cost, utility, and elasticity. Then you look at the effect on all this of monopolies, taxation, labor unions, trade across national boundaries, etc. It's a rare econ 101 student who would be able to do the kind of reasoning you are talking about.

    24. Re:Open Source by martonlorand · · Score: 1

      I am not an economist but I dont think the power that drives the economy are companies making HUGE money out of overpriced software products. I dont mind paying for a software if its a good tool and is reasonably priced - I think intelectual effort should be rewarded but not overpaid.

      So for this reason I understand if MS would ask money for its software, but it isn't good if its overpriced, and the income is used to gain monopoly on markets. In my opinion a similar driving force could be a good support contract. In a long term I think it would be better for everybody - for the people for sure - if MS would put more effort to add a little more bang for the buck... How about better support, better security?

      And what if the masses would actually have REAL acces for the things they bought? When you buy a car you can look under the hood and its all yours, you can even tinker with it, but if it breaks you take it to a repair shop. With this analogy the dealers and specialized shops profit just as the Average Joe Garage. Its up to you where you take the car and Average Joes family is also happy. How about this driving force to the economy?

      And so we all would have options and wouldnt be forced to use certain products just to send a document. Good ideas survive and eventually might become industry standards - because they are GOOD ideas - NOT because theres tons on money behing them and might not be such good ideas afterall.... And the economy is thriving :)

    25. Re:Open Source by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Actually, let's cut out the middleman, let's just smash people and take their money.

      Keep talking like that and the IRS is going to sue you for patent infringement.

    26. Re:Open Source by smchris · · Score: 1

      I don't see how using open source would help the economy. In order to boost an economy, people need to buy things

      Pretty common viewpoint though, isn't it? If it weren't, people in the U.S. would have -- oh, let's just speculate wildly -- something like national health care because healthier people can be more productive to the economy. Instead, it's more common to think that preventive health isn't sexy. The big money is in crisis care and long term care products for heart disease and diabetes, for example, after they develop. If there was less disease, where would the economy be?

      So, in current practice, producing inexpensive tools for a _subsequent_ healthy and productive economy could be seen as going again standard operating procedure.

    27. Re:Open Source by nasch · · Score: 1
      If someone gives me a beer, it is mine to do with what I will. I can drink it and all is good. Open source licenses, however, do not quite fit with that analogy.
      I think you're confusing free as in beer with free as in speech. Free as in beer simply means that you get something without paying cash for it. Proprietary software can be and often is free as in beer. Free as in speech relates to your rights to do things with the software after you obtain it. Not all open source/free software is completely free as in speech, because I cannot legally sell software incorporating GPL code without also releasing the rest of my software under the GPL. But it's more free (as in speech) than any closed software, and generally free as in beer as well.

      So! Back to the main point, when someone says free as in beer, they are simply talking about the zero price of the item, not what you're allowed to do with it.

  10. Re:ummmm by tradiuz · · Score: 1

    Actually, I want the software that has thousands of eyes picking through it. That way the holes are found publicly and quickly, rather than privately, disasterously, and slowly. Think about it, its like having 1,000 people proofread your book report before you give it to the teacher rather than 1 or two other people. More eyes discover more problems quicker and are able to fix said problems in a very fast manner.

  11. Report format by boyfaceddog · · Score: 1

    Of course their report would be an a standards based and open format like RTF or text, right?

    --
    Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
    1. Re:Report format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PDF's a pretty open standard. You can write them from just about anywhere (I use fpdf in php to generate invoices) and read them without having to use acrobat reader (say, xpdf).

    2. Re:Report format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, PDF readers are free, too, you know.

    3. Re:Report format by TheLinuxSRC · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe the PDF standard is open in that you can implement it in your software without paying royalties to Adobe.

    4. Re:Report format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      pdf is the jpeg of document formats, the end result looks good, but it's not lossless.

    5. Re:Report format by Jerry+Coffin · · Score: 2, Informative
      Of course their report would be an a standards based and open format like RTF or text, right?

      Yes and no. Yes, it uses PDF for which there are open standards (ISO 15930 and ISO 19005 to name only a couple). No, that's not much like RTF, for which there is not (TTBOMK) an open standard. After Microsoft releases a new version of Word, they (at least usually) publish a specification of the format of RTF files it'll produce -- but that's not much like an open standard process where other interested parties have input into what the spec will look like (like the ISO standards mentioned above).

      In fairness, the ISO standards above primarily specify subsets of the PDF format as defined by Adobe, and they use Adobe's specs as normative references, so the difference isn't as clear-cut as it would be in some cases. OTOH, at most this puts PDF alongside RTF -- I certainly can't see any way the RTF spec could be considered any more open, and generally I'd say it's less so.

      --
      The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
    6. Re:Report format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmmm, why do you have problems with PDF? The standard is well-documented and open. I use OOo to generate them.

  12. How far will it go... by BenHoltz · · Score: 1

    Some might say that opensource opens the possibilities for threats. We know that this is not the case, but I'm interested to see if this document gets through the first wave of government readers.

  13. Wonderful idea! by babbling · · Score: 1

    You raise excellent points.

    Now, let us contact all other countries and get them to start their own studies about this exact same topic!!

    1. Re:Wonderful idea! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      One of the problems with the Gov. switching over to Open Source is cost. You would have to convert all current documents, stop any process that is currently going on, and then you have training. MS Office is the office suite for the U.S. Gov, and they get such a good deal that it is more cost effective to stay with them. They also have a program that lets Gov. employees purchase Office 2003 Pro for $20 and Windows XP Pro for $60.

      We are encourged to use Open Source where applicable, such as Linux for certain servers, Plone for content management, etc.

  14. Re:ummmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bad troll, go home.

  15. full circle (jerk) by yagu · · Score: 4, Informative

    What I find curious, amazing, confounding is this whole thing seems to be full circle for what I remember the government doing a LONG time ago! And, it is and was one of the fundamental original underpinnings of some of the Microsoft shenanigans in the early 1990s.

    I worked on some government contracts circa 1985, and I remember a movement in the government contracting to require new contracts for computer services to be POSIX compliant. I also remember thinking how cool of an approach that was, especially considering it was a government initiative. Anyway, lots of fun programming, lots of fun (and hard) work and all on a Unix (SunOS) platform... yeah, it was even fun though we were using SunView (look it up).

    Enter Microsoft, late 1980s, and 1990 on. They sorely wanted to get into the big government contract business, and as one of their boasts for their new and improved OS (NT), they talked loud and long about NT being a POSIX OS (not an OS with a POSIX subsystem, a POSIX OS). Heck they even convinced me to come work for them for a while, until in a closed door presentation, the project manager for the POSIX subsystem prefaced her notes by saying (and I'm paraphrasing, but it's close to a quote), "Before we start, I just want to point out that we don't care about this subsystem, we don't intend to use it, and we don't intend to support it. It's just a check-box for government contracts."

    And, now the government is back to recommending Open Source and "open innovation". I only wonder if this has any impact on Microsoft this time. It didn't before, I'm guessing it won't now. Sigh.

  16. Nice unbiased report... by abigsmurf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I note the digital connections council is headed by someone from IBM and features a number of companies from pro-open source companies and institutions such as universities and Nokia as well as lots of companies that would benefit from open source. If a report came and featured a council comprosed of the equilivant anti-OSS people (ie headed by a microsoft spokesperson) people here would be screaming bloody murder.

    1. Re:Nice unbiased report... by ezavada · · Score: 1

      If a report came and featured a council comprosed of the equilivant anti-OSS people (ie headed by a microsoft spokesperson) people here would be screaming bloody murder.

      Not if the report said the same thing.

  17. Re:ummmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    "The same software that hackers around the world can get the full source code for and start picking through it to find vuneralbilities."

    I have a big clue stick if you want to beat yourself on the head with it. Is this a knee-jerk reaction you're having? I don't know where to begin to comment on such a lack of knowlege on this subject... sigh. But lets just say the report is more about open standards and interoperability than about using F/OSS applications and operating systems.

  18. Oh shit... something is free? FUCK THAT! by babbling · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No one buys oxygen, either, but the economy seems to be holding up okay despite that. Don't give yourself a migraine worrying about oxygen being free, will you?

    1. Re:Oh shit... something is free? FUCK THAT! by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      it depends entirely on context

      1 if you were in space/under water and talking to a guy that has a bottle of atmo
      which cc card would you be using to get one of the bottles???

      2 if you had a situation where a company was blocking access to your own data and wanted money how much would you pay?

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    2. Re:Oh shit... something is free? FUCK THAT! by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 1

      No one buys oxygen, either, but the economy seems to be holding up okay despite that. Don't give yourself a migraine worrying about oxygen being free, will you?

      Tell that to This Guy

      --
      Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
  19. And the Way It Plays in Washington by mpapet · · Score: 1

    But Congressperson/Senator the BSA is committed to open standards.

    -Everyone can use word documents.
    -There is a standard in place and we manage it very well thank you.
    -Enforcing a single standard denies the market the ability to choose the better standard.

    Today's Lesson: What is painfully obvious to the average ./'er is anything but. This will go on for a solid 10 years before there's some meaningful adoption in the U.S.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:And the Way It Plays in Washington by HermanAB · · Score: 1

      Hmm, the US haven't even been able to adopt the Metric system - I don't have any hope for the adoption of Open Documents. Sanity doesn't prevail in the USA...

      --
      Oh well, what the hell...
  20. Re:ummmm by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Security by obscurity isn't.

    If someone wants to find holes, they will. Remember Windows? You know, that system from that tiny company in Redmond. It doesn't really have a rep for being open and disclosed (I heard they even have lost some minor trial in an unimportant part of the world because they couldn't provide enough docs to at least make it possible to create programs sensibly for their system). And still vulnerabilities are found and exploited.

    Would more security holes be found if the source was open? Most certainly. The question is, though, who would find them? In closed source, by its very nature, the "white hats" MUST NOT poke. DMCA and its friends prohibit that. Now, since the "black hats", also by their very nature, don't give a rat's rear about the DMCA or any other law for that matter, ONLY them "may" poke at it.

    See where it leads?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  21. Free != Free by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Free as in available, not free as in beer.

    Open Source means that you can take a look at the source code. Not that you needn't pay for using it. Or that you may use it however you want. BIG difference.

    Of course you can make money with OS software. If someone wants to use it, in whole or part, he has to pay royalties (depending on the license). Sure, some companies will try to get away with ripping it, but as it's been seen in the past, such attempts rarely remain secret. And the bigger the company (and the more money is generated with it that way), the higher the danger that the (ab)use of OS soft is discovered.

    Aside of the goodwill loss, using and distributing OS soft without heeding the license coming with it is just as much a crime as ripping closed source soft and distributing it.

    In other words, OS soft has the benefit that a "small" company, or a private person using it, may get it for free, or at least for a nominal fee, while "big" companies (i.e. the ones with the big bucks) will have to pay for it. IMO, very fair use. :)

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  22. The federal government needs to use what works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Part of the problem is that federal government loves to mandate One Holy Platform as the solution. They did it with Ada, now they're doing it with J2EE. Yes, J2EE is the new Ada for most agencies up here, even though in some cases it makes more sense to use .NET or LAMP. Why? Java developers are cheap, plentiful and Java is a reasonably mature and good platform.

    But we all know that those are not enough to justify why everything has to be done the same way because sometimes it undermines the quality of the final product. What needs to be done is to bar the federal government from putting temporary cost savings above getting the job done right the first time with the right tools. That's going to be hard as hell to do, given the culture in D.C.

    Open source has not been ruled out. It is used when it makes sense. It's just that the government is very skeptical about using things that aren't well-supported and open source changes too fast for that. It takes all but an act of Congress to get new versions of software installed in the federal government. Hell, even an act of Congress would be halfway impotent. Slow and steady, not keeping up with the jones, is how it works.

  23. How about tax dollars? by geoffrobinson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Less money on software should mean lower taxes or tax money used in other areas. That should be the main argument for open source. There would be other benefits, like avoidance of vender lock-in.

    In determining how the government should run itself, fairness is lower on the list. For me at least.

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    1. Re:How about tax dollars? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Less money on software should mean lower taxes or tax money used in other areas...

      Like the unemployment and other social services for all the unemployed software developers that used/i. to make a living writing commercial software. Of course RMS will simply advise them all to join a commune (as he lounges in his spacious suite at MIT...).

  24. Economics should be a required class in highschool by moultano · · Score: 1

    In order to boost an economy, people need to buy things, and last time I checked, free open source software was *free*.

    NOT TRUE! In order to boost an economy, people need to PRODUCE things.

    For most market transactions, it happens that if someone is going to produce things someone has to be willing to buy them, which is where your confusion comes from. However, if someone makes useful stuff and gives it away for free, that is as beneficial for the economy as if someone produces the same amount of stuff and sells it all. In fact, the former situation may even be MORE beneficial to the economy if you take into account wealth distribution in addition to GDP, since the free stuff will probably be more equitably distributed.

  25. Open Standards != Open Source by rkhalloran · · Score: 1

    I'm all in favor of open *standards* for public documents, but that doesn't mean vendors can't offer solutions that cost money, either in license or support fees. It's called competition, and it's what we basically don't have in the desktop market today. The MS-Office format lock-in precludes competitors from getting in; widespread adoption of something like ODF puts multiple vendors on a level playing field, and yes, allows for free/open-source implementations as well. It also facilitates looking at other OS platforms to host those implementations.

  26. Microsoft's good is America's good (?!) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I just want you all to know that Professor_UNIX just said
    what's good for Microsoft is what is good for America
  27. The advocate open formats and publish in a PDF???? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Excuse me?

  28. you'd be suprised... by everphilski · · Score: 1

    http://ecom1.sno-ski.com/oxygen.html

    I think it was on this month's edition of Fast Company, bottled air is poised to be a multi-billion dollar industry next year. Same idiots who buy bottled water. Think about it, if people are willing to believe that bottled water is better than free water, and possibly that bottled air is better than free air, don't you maybe, possibly think those same people might just maybe, possibly extend those same beliefs to their choice of OS?

    1. Re:you'd be suprised... by babbling · · Score: 1

      Sure, but I'd like to think that the economy doesn't rely on a single bunch of idiots. Maybe that's just wishful thinking...

  29. Re:ummmm by bumptehjambox · · Score: 1
    So you're saying, "Security-minded institutions shouldn't use open source"
    For a second, consider a company having EXCLUSIVE knowledge of the 'sourse' and thus possessing the power to decide what flaws get fixed and when.
    The argument really works both ways, but if it is open to all who use it, that in itself is a form of security.

    For example, consider a building with a building which a bomb has been placed inside. Everyone but security personel is locked out, however the security personel aren't paid to defuse a bomb and have orders to not let a soul inside... so everyone in or near the building dies, all because no one wanted to let inside the very knowledgable demolition expert who happened to be walking by. That is the Pro-Open Source argument.
    However, you're saying, 'what if that demolitions expert just puts another, more destructive bomb in place and skips town?'... IDK...
    Probably bad examples, but atleast i didn't "Linux Sn0b j00" http://www.reallylinux.com/docs/snobsoped.shtml

    And remember, Open Source doesn't always mean operating system, a lot of the benefit is not paying license fees for 'MS Office' and other applications with far better open source replacements.
    Realistically, what the F@$K harm is a 'vulnerability' in OpenOffice going to do? How would someone implement an attack on all of your personal reports and documents?

  30. Open Formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They'd be better off recommending that only open formats should be used. If all file formats were open then they'd be no worry about whether the software applications were open or closed. The applications are not important. The data is the critical thing and data should be accessible in open standards.

    1. Re:Open Formats by nasch · · Score: 1

      Um... that is what they recommended.

  31. Unintended consequences by LaughingCoder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Whenever the government implements sweeping policies such as those discussed in this article there are unintended consequences which, in the end, oftentimes dwarf the predicted benefits of the policy. The classic example of this of course is when FDR implemented a wage freeze during WWII. Clever companies, in order to keep and attract good employees, began to offer to pay for their employees' health insurance. Fast forward 60 years and look at the mess that helped to create.

    So, what sort of unintended consequences would a mandate to use OSS/standards-based software bring about? Well, armed with the sourcecode, it is easy to envision government IT people customizing the application in order to "better integrate with their work procedures" or "enhance the security". Play this out over 10 years and what you wind up with is chaos, with the very thing you were hoping to achieve (interoperability) lost in a myriad of incompatible, "enhanced" applications.

    "Embrace and extend" is human nature, it is not just a Microsoft failing.

    --
    The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    1. Re:Unintended consequences by WorldRimWalker · · Score: 1
      Indeed. What happens if OSS becomes a huge success in government? What happens when the US federal government comes to depend critically on the Linux kernel, Apache, GCC/Python/Perl/Ruby, OpenOffice, Mozilla?

      The difficulty with politicians is that they mentally translate the phrase "public property" to "governemnt property". And the power that Microsoft wields is as nothing compared to the power of national governments.

      In summary - be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.

    2. Re:Unintended consequences by schlick · · Score: 1

      This is no where near as broad as you are amking it out to be. This is not proposed to mandate what the public should do, but what the government CAN'T do, and that is use a proprietay format that requires everyone else to use the same proprietary format to inter-operate with the government. Since it is the government, we are foced to deal with them, by using a proprietary format they then give a monopoly to that format. If the use an open format then anyone is allowed to make the tools necessary to utilize the format. It doesn't require open source.

      ODF != OSS

      What could be a negative unintended consequence of requireing an open format for government documents?

      --
      "It's because they're stupid, that's why. That's why everybody does everything." -Homer Simpson
    3. Re:Unintended consequences by LaughingCoder · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, to answer your question off the top of my head ... future changes to the document format could potentially need to be "approved" by the government. Or, more likely, the government might choose to remain at a particular revision rather than incur the cost of upgrading every system. Imagine if all submissions to the government had to be in Word 1.0 DOC format. How painful would that be today? I suppose it could stimulate the economy by creating make-work type services (a government specialty) to convert modern documents into old Word 1.0 format so they could be submitted to the government. Would publishing the Word 1.0 DOC format prevent this from happening?

      Frankly I don't think any of us can really predict what the unintended consequences might be ... that is why we call them "unintended." I just know from experience that there will be consequences that surprise us, and usually the surprise is not a positive one.

      In the end it is wise to remember that government is an extremely blunt instrument. The fewer policies the better. There is no end of problems we can point to that resulted from "things that seemed like a good idea at the time".

      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    4. Re:Unintended consequences by nasch · · Score: 1

      So we shouldn't make any laws, because we can't be sure what their effects will be? Or we should only make some laws? If we should make some laws but not others, shouldn't the standard be that we should make a law when we judge that the benefit outweighs the cost? If not, what other standard do you suggest? Or if you think we shouldn't make any laws, would you apply this to past decisions as well? If not, why not? If so, how far back should it go? Maybe we shouldn't have made the Bill of Rights? That's sure had unintended consequences.

  32. microsoft takes out the checkbook... by WeAreAllDoomed · · Score: 1

    i'm waiting for MS to buy/steal/swallow/take over CED and rename it Microsoft Opinion Server.

    --
    free software, open standards, open file formats, no software patents.
  33. neo-Cons vs. Reagan Cons by bmh129 · · Score: 1

    The neo-Cons will look at it and yell "Communism!" The Reagan conservatives (be they Democrats or Republicans) would have said, "Cool! People did this WITHOUT GOVERNMENT FORCE, and they offer tech support (for a fee). That's capitalism, Baby!"

    1. Re:neo-Cons vs. Reagan Cons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      huzzah! You sir are a 'right' thinking American.

    2. Re:neo-Cons vs. Reagan Cons by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yep, that's capitalism. But we're in a past capitalism world, where established corporations want to secure their turf with protectionism, patents and legal banter.

      Old school capitalists were bothered by the influence the government would have on commerce. Maybe it's time to coin a new term for people bothered by the influence corporations have on governments. It's a far bigger threat to freedom in the free world than Communism ever was.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:neo-Cons vs. Reagan Cons by TheDurkinBoy · · Score: 0

      -It's a far bigger threat to freedom in the free world than Communism ever was.-

      (turning sarcasm on) I agree. WallMart just abducted and tortured my uncle and the local Exxon station executed my brother.

  34. How many? by Momoru · · Score: 1

    How many US Governments are there anyhow?

    1. Re:How many? by guabah · · Score: 1

      50 state goverments. 15 territorial goverments 1 for district of columbia 1 central goverment That's like 67 goverments without counting municipal goverments

  35. Oh, please by everphilski · · Score: 1

    I've bought 2 copies of windows - 95 and XP, plus a copy of Office. One OEM, one out of pocket - grand total to Microsoft, lifetime about $250.

    You are majoring in the minors. I chose to buy those licenses because I feel more productive in Windows than in MacOS, and because quite frankly at the purchase of Win95 Linux wasn't mature enough, and at the purchase of WinXP I wanted to play games. I made the choice. I want Windows. A lot of us do. Microsoft actually does a lot of cool stuff, its too bad that there are straight up shills that see nothing more than a corporation with "commercial licenses" and because of that thinks these corporations shouldn't exist...

    1. Re:Oh, please by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      Straw man. One individual purcaser of Windows doesn't matter, but a few thousand or hundred thousand does. And that's the scale we're talking about when you start getting into government mandates.

      If the government decides to use Format X, not only do all of the government's systems have to be upgraded to use this format, but everyone who wants to interact with the government needs to toe the line as well. That was the problem in Massachusetts: by using Microsoft Word, they were effectively telling citizens "If you want access to government archives, you have to go buy this program, because this is the format we're going to send you stuff in." And if the program in question only runs on one operating system, the required purchase is that much greater. OSes that it doesn't exist for are out of the running from the start. Same if it only runs on one architecture. (Seen many Sparcstations lately? Yeah, me neither.)

      Of course, people really don't run out and purchase things in response to a government manadate, after the fact; if they're intelligent, they try to plan ahead. Thus the purchasing decisions are sometimes made ahead of the official standard, making the cost and scale hard to appreciate. If you know that your customer uses a particular OS/word-processing/collaboration suite, you probably would start off your list of possible purchase options with stuff that's compatible. And Microsoft works hard to ensure that if the people on the far end are using their gear, the only option you have to talk to them is also MS gear.

      How much more diverse would the PC field be right now, if it wasn't for Microsoft Windows and Office? I'm willing to bet quite a bit. A whole lot of niche OSes and office programs that might have been the perfect tool for somebody's job bit the dust during MS's rise to power, and now we're all basically stuck with a one-size-fits-all-but-nobody-well de facto standard.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Oh, please by everphilski · · Score: 1

      How much more diverse would the PC field be right now, if it wasn't for Microsoft Windows and Office?

      So everyone using Linux 2.2.6 and OpenOffice 2 is better than WindowsXP and OpenOffice? I fail to see the difference. Either way you have a staunch majority and lack the divertiy you seek.

      If the government decides to use Format X, not only do all of the government's systems have to be upgraded to use this format, but everyone who wants to interact with the government needs to toe the line as well.

      Yeah. In case you missed it, Microsoft is a part of the ODF working group. They can keep using Windows and Office. Get over it.

    3. Re:Oh, please by FusionDragon2099 · · Score: 1

      So everyone using Linux 2.2.6 and OpenOffice 2 is better than WindowsXP and OpenOffice? I fail to see the difference. Either way you have a staunch majority and lack the divertiy you seek.

      We don't want to see Linux and OpenOffice dominate. We just want to see consumers have a choice.

    4. Re:Oh, please by everphilski · · Score: 1

      So by removing Microsoft you remove a choice ...

  36. "Economic growth" is the weakest argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > openness should be promoted ... in order to foster innovation and economic growth in the U.S. and world economies.

    That's probably the weakest argument I have ever heard for openness.

    Economic growth is not always the best public policy. Just ask a Silicon Valley survivor what they think about the "economic growth" that occurred between 1995 and 2000. Hell, if economic growth is your goal, then simply encourage everyone to spend money rather than saving it.

    A much more robust argument for openness is that it prevents publicly-owned computers and documents from being held hostage by private companies.

  37. Open Source / Open Formats by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think governments need to concentrate less one whether software is open source or not and concentrate instead on open document formats. I say this because, I feel that dead open source or dead closed source ends up being the same issue. With open document formats at least you can get hold of a new application and ask them to do the effort to support the format. Who do you ask if your product no longer has a development team, or volounteers, to support it?

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    1. Re:Open Source / Open Formats by ezavada · · Score: 1

      I feel that dead open source or dead closed source ends up being the same issue.

      You may feel that way, but there are some substantial differences.

      Open Source can't really "die" as long as someone has a copy of the source. It can only be "mostly dead". Someone who has the source can always modify it to work elsewhere. At very least the source can be used to understand clearly what the file format is so they can retrieve the data.

      A closed source application can die because it the company decides to stop producing it or goes out of business. IANAL but I'm pretty sure that even in the later case you can't legally use that software -- it doesn't revert to the public domain just because the company is gone.

      So consider a dead closed source app with an open file format. If all you need is the data and there's another application that supports the format, then no problem. Unless the apps didn't quite read the spec the same way, or don't run on the same platform, or the other apps are way more expensive.

      I don't have anything against open file formats, but it's no substitute for open source. It is better nothing though.

    2. Re:Open Source / Open Formats by nasch · · Score: 1
      I think governments need to concentrate less one whether software is open source or not and concentrate instead on open document formats.
      RTFA, that's exactly what they advocate. And if you're referring to Massachusettes (sp?), they're moving to ODF, regardless of application.
    3. Re:Open Source / Open Formats by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      RTFA, that's exactly what they advocate. And if you're referring to Massachusettes (sp?), they're moving to ODF, regardless of application.

      Darn, I knew there was something I forgot ;)

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  38. Studies != statistics or facts by ZenKen · · Score: 1

    Studies are NOT statistics. Studies are NOT based on truth. Studies are generally sponsored by a company in the companies interest OR they are requested by the government or some government to explore some area of interest. This is why you have studies that say "studies show that people who read Slashdot are more likely to be geeks and other websurfers" or "studies indicate that being sleep-deprived is bad". In general, studies are gathered thoughts or ideas from area 'experts', and generally NOT based on measurable facts. Thus, studies cost less.

    JMHO on studies. Notice that studies report 'findings'. Maybe they are more like blogs....

  39. U.S. Government will follow Corporate America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Government is not for the People, but for:

    A.) themselves
    B.) business interests who paid for their influence (see 'A')

    Having said that, government will follow the lead of Corporate America...get Corporate America to see how open source, open standards, FOSS, Linux, etc. will create new business and profit potential and get them to adopt it and government will surely follow.

    Chicken and Egg

  40. Open or closed source ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I've thought about this quite a bit; becuase I've been employed to write code which will end up as closed source, and also to write code which will end up as open source. My employer intends to make money from 'professional services'; enabling his clients to run their businesses better than they otherwise could do; signing contracts, delivering, and taking the money.

    It's a bit like photographs. If I want a photograph of the Eiffel Tower, I can go buy a book with a professional photo in it; it will say 'All Rights Reserved', just like a copy of Microsoft Windows will. Or IBM MVS, for that matter. Or, I can go to Paris with a camera, and take my own 'free' photo of the Eiffel Tower. Someone like Boots the Chemist will get some money from me, for developing and printing the photo, but I can license the photo to others on any terms I choose. Put it on my web site for all to copy, if I feel so inclined. This is the Linux/OpenOffice model.

    I don't think either kind will displace the other. They are both valid ways of going about things.

  41. Boy Scouts? by zukakog · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    the BSA is committed to open standards.
    I wasn't aware that the Boy Scouts of America used open standards. I wonder if there will be a FOSS Merit Badge?
  42. "US Governments"? by dud83 · · Score: 1

    How many governments are there in the United States of America then?
    Official, actual, fictional, imaginative? :o

    1. Re:"US Governments"? by HighOrbit · · Score: 1

      Several thousand governments at various levels such as State, County, Parish, City, Township, School District, Water District, etc, etc, etc. Plus over a hundred independent Federal Agencies from the FCC to NASA to the Smithsonian Instutution. All of which make independent buying decisions.

    2. Re:"US Governments"? by Russ+Steffen · · Score: 1

      1 Federal Government
      50 State Governments, + a handful of US Territory Govs
      more county and municipal governments than I care to count

      In short, there's a lot of them.

  43. Re:Open Source = more money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So the internet hasn't helped the economy?
    Recall that the internet was build upon and is running upon open standards and open source.

    There are niche markets in the document world just waiting to be filled once open standards take hold. HTML is just an example of just ONE specialized document type - look at how many niches around html pop up each day.

    Software Engineering is built around the fact that most your resources are in the maintenance phase, open source could reduce costs there, but most likely, it will still cost some money. With open source, maintenance goes to any number of vendors as opposed to proprietary vendor lock-in (monopoly-like.)

    Businesses competing promotes a stronger economy than monopolies or communism. In a country of stupid IP laws that have little chance of being fixed; open standards are the only counter-balance.

  44. News: IKEA and MS Partnership by inaequitas · · Score: 1

    As a direct result of this report, MS and IKEA signed a contract for replacing all seating devices in the Redmond headquarters with imovable ones [bolted to the floor.]

    This will reduce one of the main yearly business expenses that MicroSoft needs to cover.

  45. That's not a good thing. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    If that's the only mention, it's pretty bad. Why? Because "Slashdot" doesn't mean anything to most government types, and if they're the intended readership of this report, then it indicates a pretty poor writing style: dropping a random word that they're not likely to understand in, and then never defining it or using it again.

    I hope that there's a glossary somewhere that explains what "Slashdot" is.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:That's not a good thing. by MountainLogic · · Score: 1
      The slashdot comment includes a footnote:

      Slashdot is a popular website that features short summaries of technology-related news articles from a wide variety of other websites. Readers are provided with a link to the original website, should they wish to read the article in its entirety, and can also post their comments regarding the article on the Slashdot website. The editors of Slashdot are responsible for accepting or rejecting news articles, which are generally submitted by Slashdot readers.

    2. Re:That's not a good thing. by almeida · · Score: 1

      There was a helpful footnote for the uninformed reader:
      Slashdot is a popular website that features short summaries of technology-related news articles from a wide variety of other websites. Readers are provided with a link to the original website, should they wish to read the article in its entirety, and can also post their comments regarding the article on the Slashdot website. The editors of Slashdot are responsible for accepting or rejecting news articles, which are generally submitted by Slashdot readers.

      The reference to Slashdot was about patents. The full context was:
      The Patent and Trademark Office should make increased use of the Internet in seeking to document "prior art," particularly in the area of information technology, where the Internet provides new capabilities to reach the most knowledgeable commentators. A "Slashdot for prior art" should be the goal.

  46. one step removed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please, you really can't be that naieve or uninformed can you? I guess it doesn't matter if "the bad stuff" is only one step removed, that makes it invisible, a fantasy, it doesn't happen?? As long as it doesn't happen to you or your closest kin, then it "doesn't happen"? Your examples-walmart. Google "lao gai". go ahead, do it. Educate yourself. Then tell us walmart doesn't result in death,torture, slavery for people. And Exxon??? Puh-leeze! Do you honestly think that people aren't killed maimed and tortured every day all over the planet so that exxon can keep pumping crude, so they can give a CEO 400 million to retire on? You sorta missed all the geopolitical conflict and was and stuff that seem to go on forever around most of the major oil and natgas producing regions on the planet?? Do you think that is just a coincidence??

    But, as long as it is one step away, it "doesn't happen", all lies!!

  47. too late by wardk · · Score: 1

    they have standardized on windows. any flavor, all flavors. besides, MS goes to great lengths to ensure interoperability between MS application and operating systems and others.

    such nonsense, this just distracts the government from it's true function. screwing up.

  48. The government alredy use vlc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You know that the government buys windows for each workststion and then uses VLC media player.Finally someone talks about this

  49. Duh. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    The Communists are our friends now, didn't you get the memo? It's The Terrorists that are the enemy.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  50. Ad Hominem! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ha!

    1. Re:Ad Hominem! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new here.

  51. This needs to be balanced... by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This needs to be balanced with the fact that many subjects simply do not need an "expert" to understand. No matter how many years you have studied the earths atmosphere, and how many degrees you have, I still don't need you to tell me what color the sky is. Things like, "Is it good for the people when the government mandates reliance on a corporation, and requires the people to purchase products from a specific corporation to take part in society?", simply do not need an "expert" to answer.

    1. Re:This needs to be balanced... by east+coast · · Score: 1

      This needs to be balanced with the fact that many subjects simply do not need an "expert" to understand.

      That's why I said (and I quote!) "While I'm not saying that someone's ideas should be discounted if they don't have a masters in some field of study at the same time we should be honest enough to admit that there are areas we know little about."

      Things like, "Is it good for the people when the government mandates reliance on a corporation, and requires the people to purchase products from a specific corporation to take part in society?", simply do not need an "expert" to answer.

      Um, I don't see anyone requiring for anyone else to buy anything to take part in the system. Or do you think there is a PC in every home? Not to say that people should have to buy a copy of MS Office to look at a document but I don't see that as the case anywhere either.

      Aside from your far fetched example do you honestly think that the government should simply turn to any product that has the OSS stamp on it and not even consider other potential problems? Hell, if that's the case I have a java text editor I will gladly let the government use if they use "my" customer support for any issues that arise. I swear it will be at a reasonable price and the product will work just fine. It's as every bit as good as MS Notepad... I'll have it completed by tonight!

      The question is far more complex than you make it out to be.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
  52. Well said; also my two cents: by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Very well said. I tried to say something similar elsewhere, but I think you did a better job.

    One thing I'd like to hammer home is the redundancy argument: with closed-source software, everyone pays for the same thing, OVER AND OVER again. I buy Windows, you buy Windows. We both got the exact same thing. With free software, you don't pay for the copy of the software, you pay to make that software better for you. It's only "free" (as in beer) if it does exactly what you want it to do out of the box, if it doesn't do that, you pay someone to customize it for you.

    We (especially PHBs) don't think of software that way; we think about it in terms of black boxes. It either does what you want it to do or it doesn't. But that's not necessarily how it has to be; if we weren't all paying a few hundred dollars in order to have what everybody else has, we'd have a lot of money left over to make that software better (however we think 'better' is). Would we pour all the money we're now spending on duplicate copies into development? Probably not, but there would still be a giant net benefit. Paying people to improve something is always better than paying people to make one halfassed thing and then sell it a hundred million times over.

    The problem is that traditional closed-source software houses are still stuck in a manufacturing analogy. They want to think of themselves as giant Ford or GM plants, turning out "units" that they then sell for a certain fixed price to everyone. But that's really a crummy way to market software, profitable as it may be in the short run for the people running the factories. It encourages a least-common-denominator approach to making software that results in gear that's inflexible and does many things poorly rather than one thing well.

    A better approach would be for smaller software companies to concentrate on making a product that fulfills a particular role or job, while leveraging previously existing products. If you stick to open standards, then everyone can use their own customized tools, but still talk to each other, while at the same time the society gets more and more advanced software.

    If there's one single contribution that Free Software makes, in my opinion, it's that. It keeps you from having to pay for the same old crap a hundred times over, and instead gives you the freedom to apply those resources that you would have used to other things -- including making the software better.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  53. Look no further than the journal industry. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Agreed; also, I think that medical research conducted with taxpayer dollars should have to be published openly. I'm not saying that it has to be under the GFDL or anything, but it has to be available for public review, not closed up in some expensive journal that doesn't let you submit anything unless you agree never to publish it elsewhere.

    The U.S. government is the biggest single supporter of medical research (that I know of) in the world, I'd sure like to be able to see the results of my money.

    If you want to see a 19th or early-20th century business model that's way past its time to die, forget the music industry, take a look at the scientific journals. Ridiculously inflated membership fees for access to nothing but a lot of information that was produced by public monies in the first place, conducted in many cases at public institutions. They're the ultimate middlemen, doing nothing but trading information back and forth, preserving themselves through exclusivity agreements and via the commonly held sentiment that if it's not published there, it can't be good.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  54. This CED advocates outsourcing and that's ok? by Swift+Kick · · Score: 1

    This makes me wonder if anyone even looks into the source of these reports.

    Here we have an organization publishing a paper that is encouraging the use of Open Source in the government, yet these are the same people that are for globalization and outsourcing, which time and time again have been denigrated and crucified here on Slashdot and other sites of a similar nation.

    I mean, check out their own About page (http://www.ced.org/about/chairman.shtml):

    GLOBALIZATION & TRADE
    CED's international program remains strong and saw the completion of a second project chaired by James D. Robinson III, General Partner and Co-Founder, RRE Ventures, on trade and outsourcing entitled, "Making Trade Work: Straight Talk on Jobs, Trade, and Adjustment." At CED's annual dinner on May 19, 2004, General Motors received our Excellence in Public Policy Award, and GM's former chairman and chief executive officer from 1992 to 2000, Jack Smith, spoke about GM's commitment to global corporate citizenship and also presented an overview of his company's activities in the Peoples Republic of China. GM's current chairman and CEO, Rick Wagoner, presented the CED award to Mr. Smith.


    Just have a look at their projects page, and after reading the transcripts of some of their meetings, you might start wondering what's behind this interest in Open Source (http://www.ced.org/projects.shtml).

    So, I guess they're OK when they're 'pursuing the Open Source agenda', but when they release a report tomorrow on how free global trade and outsourcing is the next best thing to sliced bread, we can call them devils?

    Help me out here, folks....

    --
    "We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
    1. Re:This CED advocates outsourcing and that's ok? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So, I guess they're OK when they're 'pursuing the Open Source agenda', but when they release a report tomorrow on how free global trade and outsourcing is the next best thing to sliced bread, we can call them devils?
      Wow. Its possible to think that a group of people is right about one thing, and wrong about another. Why do you act like this is some kind of amazing, counterintuitive result? Do you feel it is necessary to worship someone as infallible on every issue in order to agree that one thing they say is right, and makes a good case?
  55. Not all of that is required. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This isn't quite true. You wouldn't have to convert all of the past documents. As long as they're just sitting in place (on disk or wherever), they're fine in their current formats, provided a open-source interpreter / reader exists. Then they can be converted to the new, open format on demand, when they're accessed or needed. (This isn't much of a trick, I remember old versions of Clarisworks that would do this with old documents: open an old document and it would open, but on save you'd be prompted to create a new file for a the new format. If you really wanted an old version saved you Exported.)

    Right now, most of the proprietary formats aren't so bad that we can't break out of them. OpenOffice will read DOC files, for example. So today's DOC files are relatively safe, but that does't mean the ones produced by the next version of Word will be. That's why it's important to move to creating documents in an open format, so you don't get any further locked-in, using whatever worse format MS invents tomorrow.

    By stopping using newer versions of the proprietary format/software, you effectively freeze that format in place. You say "no more proprietary additions, no changes." That makes it a lot easier to reverse engineer and write an interpreter that can convert those documents on demand, as they're needed. It's the continual use and updating of documents into proprietary, undocumented formats that's the major problem, because the "moving target" effect makes them basically impossible to reverse-engineer. (Plus I'm waiting for the day when reverse engineering a Word document will be a DMCA violation.)

    As long as you stop yourself from getting any deeper in the black hole of vendor lock-in, it's possible (at least right now) to dig yourself out and rescue your old documents using free tools, whenever you need them. Mass-conversion might be nice, since it'll make things a little easier to work with later, but it's really not necessary provided you have open source tools to convert them already (which we do in the case of Word documents, and that's the biggest issue).

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  56. Respiratory care by tepples · · Score: 1

    No one buys oxygen, either

    Tell that to the people who work in the respiratory care unit of any local hospital.

  57. Metric System by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    OpenDocument has the distinct advantage in the U.S. of not being French. It still might have a chance.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  58. Action through inaction. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    The fewer policies the better. There is no end of problems we can point to that resulted from "things that seemed like a good idea at the time".

    This is true, and I agree with you heartily on not doing things just for the sake of "doing something." However I think it's important to point out that there are situations, and I think this is one of them, where if you don't take some sort of action you allow something else to occur by default.

    In other words, there already IS a policy on electronic documents, it's "use Microsoft products or nobody will read your stuff." Not doing anything simply allows that policy -- unofficial or not -- to remain in effect.

    So really you are not weighing the pros and cons of one policy versus no policy, you're weighing a new policy versus the existing one. And frankly, I think the existing one sucks pretty bad.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  59. please no by Kortec · · Score: 1

    I really wish I could stop reading headlines like this one. Given that the US government is the most backwards and currently terrifying political body that comes to mind, I think I'd like them to keep using the gimped worthless software they've got. Powerful software, in this case open sourced software, in the hands of zealots just makes for more powerful zealots.

    Keeping in mind the bug and hole reduction effects of having N possible developers, where N is everybody, it's probably better for us as a society if they keep to their proprietary garbage. More frightenigly, if they didn't, think about what they might try to do with all that money they'd save?

    --
    "My heart is in the work." - Andrew Carnegie
  60. That's an unrelated issue. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    You know, I don't need to like everything that somebody says in order to agree with one of their points. I think this report hits the nail pretty much on the head; of what I've read of it so far, I think it makes a lot of good points. I think their stance on open source is a little weak, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.

    How the authors or the responsible agency feels about globalization, outsourcing, or abortion shouldn't affect what you think of this one report. They could be Nazis--literally--and their point would still be valid if it was well argued and supported by facts. It's just like dealing with a politician that I don't like most of the time, but agree with occasionally. The fact that I think somebody's stance on immigration is stupid, doesn't automatically invalidate whatever opinion they hold on healthcare.

    The CED's stances on other issues are irrelevant, unless you can come up with some reason why someone who supports globalization ought to feel a particular way about open standards. They're easily separable issues, and therefore I think your inference (that we ought to engage basically in an ad hominem, attacking the organization and all of their ideas because we might disagree with one or two) is wrong.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  61. Righto! by Mariner28 · · Score: 1
    There was a recent article in the IEEE's Spectrum magazine, http://spectrum.ieee.org/apr06/3223 titled "Do-It-Yourself-Patents", where the author steps through the prior art process. The author only searches the patent record for prior art - doesn't even entertain the thought of a wider search.

    How sad! Hopefully the study referred to in this Slashdot article will reach a wide audience.

    --
    "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
  62. Open Source != GNU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article mistakenly equates software licensed under a viral license like the GPL with "open source", as though they are one-and-the-same. To wit: "... open source uses intellectual property law to guarantee the widest possible distribution of the source code in order to stimulate its improvement and add value." However, source code released under a BSD-style license arguably stimulates improvement and adds more value than GPLed code. Nothing in the GPL guarantees its widest possible distribution either.

    So prepare to release your code under a BSD-style license! Isn't that only fair and most efficient? ;-)

    1. Re:Open Source != GNU by Mariner28 · · Score: 1
      "However, source code released under a BSD-style license arguably stimulates improvement and adds more value than GPLed code. Nothing in the GPL guarantees its widest possible distribution either."

      That's a bit disingenuous. A BSD-style license adds value for the company incorporating it into its proprietary products. It does little directly to add value to the end-user or the customer. The GPL, on the other hand, ensures that there's a tit-for-tat: you the distributer get to use GPL code gratis - as long as you give access to the source for any enhancements you make. That ensures that the code isn't taken private - it ensures wider distribution and makes the project (or the code) stronger for it. More interest in the source, the better the resulting software for the consumer of it.

      Don't tell the half of it. Tell the whole truth.

      Why isn't NetBSD or OpenBSD enjoying the popularity that Linux is? Look in the mirror: it's the license it's released under.

      --
      "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
    2. Re:Open Source != GNU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That's a bit disingenuous. A BSD-style license adds value for the company incorporating it into its proprietary products. It does little directly to add value to the end-user or the customer.

      Did you ever happen to look at Microsoft and Apple copyright notices? They include BSD notices. Those companies and a zillion others wouldn't be caught dead with GPL code (knowingly, at least) in them. Developers at these companies write software for a living and for their shareholders, not for personal amusement.

      The reason NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD are not enjoying the popularity of Linux is because, with the BSD source code bases, one doesn't have to accept the baby with the bathwater. You've also changed the subject from the source code in general (or in toto) to just the OS. Look around and you'll find BSD-style code almost everywhere, even in (gasp!) Linux.

  63. The US has adopted the Metric system by Mariner28 · · Score: 1

    The official measurement system of the US is metric, not the English/imperial system.

    All the packaged food products you buy are in grams, liters, etc. The english measurement is on there for the convenience of the consumer. Just about the only consumable item we have is gasoline and oil - the entire world uses barrels (42 US gallons). Pretty much other than that and it's all metric.

    Any engineering discipline teaches the metric system. If it weren't for the US housing industry, with its 2x4's (pardon me - that's 1.5x3.5's) and 16" centers, we the consumers would have converted by now.

    Metric's only hard when you try to convert measurements to english. If you stay in metric, it's a breeze.

    --
    "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
  64. Adobe's PDF format is free and open. by Mariner28 · · Score: 1

    Anyone can implement the PDF format without having to pay royalties to Adobe.

    Of course, the Wikepedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pdf_format is a bit confusing, saying in the opening sentence that it's a proprietary file format, then saying later it's an open standard...

    --
    "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
  65. It's preferred in DoD to do this... by sexylicious · · Score: 1

    to use open source software. The problem is partly with the fact that many people percieve MS Office products as the only office products worth using out there.

    MS hasn't exactly been forthcoming with opening up their Office software documents' standards. And if you couple that fact to the fact that MS Office doesn't run well on anything except MS Windows or a Mac, you get the problem that we have today.

    I am typing this from a machine with Win XP on it, and Office 2003.

    I used to work for a private company that did some software for DoD programs. And we always went with open source programs when we could. We'd have to verify that the source did exactly what we wanted, and nothing else. And there's an initiative inside DoD and for companies that want to provide DoD with stuff to use open source software.

  66. Windoze... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should own up to their real inspiration for making my life a living hell at work. I think I'll pass this onto my boss. Peace