Slashdot Mirror
Neural Interface for Gaming Getting Closer?
An anonymous reader writes "Mercury News is reporting that a neural interface for gaming may be in the not-so-distant future thanks to at least two start-ups developing this technology. From the article: 'The goal is to create game console add-ons costing less than $100. Some of the game play features can be conscious -- such as forcing someone to concentrate in order to drive a car faster or toss something at an enemy. Others can be subconscious. The game could slow down, for instance, if the sensors pick up an increase in anxiety, Lee said. The company hasn't set a timetable for the product launches of its customers.'"
The most astonishing part is that NeuroSky actually got some seed money (maybe from the CEOs mom?) and are looking for a first round of venture capital.
What the article describes is that they offer a cheap EEG. That's about it. The second part ( ... interpreting what they mean ... ) is complete bullshit. What you can measure from an EEG is the sum of all the neurons in your cortex firing all the time. There are typical patterns, e.g. the general frequency changes when you are relaxed. This is rather easy to determine. But controlling a video game? Imagine "to fire press button A or meditate for five minutes".
This is by the way exactly what the other company mentioned (CyberLearning Technology) sells for a lot of money to hopeless parents with kids that have ADHD. Basically if you do not concentrate, you cannot reach maximum speed. A simple biofeedback system, think "$5 self-build lie detector with skin resistance measuring", only with a $584 price tag. It actually works, but the price is somewhat ridiculous.
Now there are ways to use an EEG to control a more advanced interface. If you have enough sensors you can try to calculate the 3D source from where a pattern came in the brain, like you can reversely calculate where a sound came from if you place several microphones in a room and compare the different runtimes of the sound waves. thus giving you much more precise input. I heard a lecture about this at the Aachen University of Technology almost 10 years ago, a very interesting cooperation between their medical department and their computer scientists, than using a massive amount of machine power. You still have to solve the puzzle how to consciously create these patterns.
On this years CeBIT I talked to a group from another university that presented an EEG interface for paraplegics. They could determine whether the signal came from the right or left hemisphere of the brain by having the person "think" left or right. The system allowed the user to enter about 15 characters per minute after a lot of training, but actually ran on a recent PC.
Unfortunately the rate cannot be easily increased, since the signals are kind of fuzzy. But if DSPs and some generations of software allowed to squeeze >25MBit through a pair of copper lines which where said to top at 56kbit, they may do something similar to EEGs. But not soon. NeuroSky and Cyberlearning will long be forgotten by then.
memomo: free web based language trainer DE-EN-ES-FR-IT
Now how long will it be until this sort of input is reversed and a game will directly impact our physical body?
Well thats certainly not a way to win over your demograph...
I want a neural interface to Google.
"The company hasn't set a timetable for the product launches of its customers."
Given that current neural interfaces only work worth a damn when surgical implantation is involved, not having a timetable is pretty understandable.
What I really want to know is how these companies plan to avoid bankruptcy in the meanwhile. Of course, given what passes for a success in business in twenty-first century America, maybe they aren't.
no need to move at all when gaming, that's what we've all been waiting for :)
And I thought this would never come true!
Others can be subconscious. The game could slow down, for instance, if the sensors pick up an increase in anxiety, Lee said.
If they can pull this off, I wonder how it will play with real brain function. I have read about how people perceive time to slow when they are in a situation that causes an adrenaline rush. If the game was realistic enough, it is possible it could cause the player's adrenaline to start up. It would be interesting to see how it works/what happens in that case.
I for one welcome our new video game console overlords...
So how long till .hack?
If this happens, gamers will get even weaker. As it stands, gamers can be proud of their oddly-muscled forearms, fingers and thumbs. But what will they have in the future? A vein on their forehead that they can pulse on command.
Ingenious! When fighting a boss, the game freezes!
Why back off when the viewer/player gets anxiety? Half Life 2 was pretty f'in scary going through ravenholm- couldn't imagine how scary yet cool it would have been to have the zombies/scary things come out just when you're most freaked out.
Psychological impact on some people could be bad though.. Perhaps a 'freak me out' threshold option?
Check out Wild Divine for an example of what you can do with a game that uses biofeedback. It's like $150 and comes with a biofeedback device that plugs into a USB port.
The concept of the game is to have you use meditative techniques to manipulate things in the game. So you have to make a baloon rise, or something like that to progress in the game. It's an interesting concept but the game itself gets repetitive pretty fast since the tasks you perform are all pretty similar. The artwork is different for different things, but the overall interaction doesn't change a whole lot.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
BOOM HEADSHOT!!!
"Playtesting with Tomb Raider and BloodRayne did yield a larger percentage of goo-covered monitors."
"Made up/misattributed quote that makes me look smart. I am on
Huh ? what if something like this happens ? a little 'transistor' or 'capacitor' breaks somewhere and ?
Will i just 'pop' while playing in the middle of my living room at 21.30 with a cup of tea in the holder ?
Oh man. games have become already much tiring to play. I cant handle extra input from the game from now on. maybe im older now.
"Concentrate" in order to drive ? we already do that while driving to work. Whats next ? Wearing gloves while cleaning in Sims 2 ?
Read radical news here
Called "Biofeedback" Been around since at least the fifties. See also "Polygraph"
Faith: n. -- That human impulse that drives them to steal appliances when the power goes out
make you feel pleasure everytime you let them bill your credit card in-game.
You got to be kiding me, give these companies direct access to my brain! You must of had a lobotomy or something!
Given how buggy games are at release these days, I shudder to think of the ramifications of neural interfaces connected to these. In the beginning when communication is one way, one could imagine the issues that arise from a stray thought. As it is, Oblivion crashes when I just exit the game. Now, add in an interface that reads my thoughts. I'd hate to see what happens when my mind strays away from the game and to something like, I don't know, my child crying or some such thing.
Now when the communication goes both ways, things could get crazier. I finally sit down to play Duke Nukem Forever and 5 minutes in a hit a bug that makes me wet my pants start calling my left shoe "Herman". Ah technology.
The true test is if it can detect that I'm watching porn.
How long to the next dot.bomb bubble?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
In a racing game, for instance, players can drive at faster speeds if they concentrate on being calm. If the players becomes too nervous, the game can send feedback such as vibrations to the game controller that make it harder to drive a car.
So when I come home to blow off some steam with a little racing, I can look forward to the game throwing off my reflexes and sending my car into spinouts because it knows that I'm anxious. Wow! Nothing relieves stress like being punished for it!
Procrastination Man strikes again!
I enjoy the occasional PC game, but I can't stand the notion that every time I sit down to play a new title I've got to learn a whole new set of commands.
I'm not as familiar with console games--which you'd think would benefit from interface standardizaation, but they, too, seem to have a steep learning curve. When you're an old fart like myself, you just don't want to expend the time.
A true, intuitive neural interface that would allow you to just sit and play without taking the time to learn a new interface, would overcome that barrier and perhaps enhance the market.
IF it works, that is.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
So NeuroSky ain't into Gibson territory, by a long shot. But, nice try.
Luke, help me take this mask off
The idea is to be able to keep yourself under enough control that an adrenaline rush doesn't fsck up your brain waves.
The only notable news here is that they're working on bringing this type of technology down to a $100 price point.
Most of those biofeedback setups (with relation to games) are used in therapy to help 'patients' modulate their brainwaves. People with ADHD seem to be pretty big winners because of it.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Transhumanism is coming soon. And it will be good.
This is however countered by the more recent text messaging two-thumbed theory that we only need two thumbs and other fingers will waste away. Perhaps it is safe to assume that these trends change faster than evolution/intelligent design can change us, so we'll stay just as ugly as we ever were.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
We already have a pretty effective neural interface to video game consoles.
They are called "hands".
Damn lazy wire heads!
I read this article and all I could think about was trying to play Track & Field -- forehead sweating, eyeballs and veins popping, face turning red all from mentally trying to whack those two buttons as fast as you can ... then your head does the whole Scanners thing.
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
Knowledge on demand? Check out the short net novel "Manna" by Marshall Brain. I believe this was a post on Slashdot a while back. It's the best (and happiest) postulation of that scenario I've read. http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
This game relied on biofeedback sensors to preform certain activities. Aparently, the game is designed to help you meditate. I can imagine it being used in other games. Imagine a first person shooter where you have to remain calm and collected or else something bad will happen to the game.v ine.htm
http://www.stens-biofeedback.com/products/wild_di
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
It seems to me that while external neural interface devices are useful, the real revolution will happen when industries band together and make true immersive gaming happen. Then, it won't simply be a home EEG or your thumbs controlling your in-game experience, but the complete facilities of your simulated "physical" body. I suppose it would take someone pretty bold to lead that revolution, though - not many people I've spoken to are eager to have their spines tapped into and their neurons commandeered by a computer game. There's always hope from the Singularitarians and other fringe technology-hyper groups, though. -Antiphon http://www.igsig.org/
http://www.atarihq.com/museum/2678/mindlink.html
There was a Stargate SG-1 episode about that. A civilization that built a forcefield to protect itself from the extreme pollution in its planet, and the only major piece of technology you saw them use was the 'Link'(I think that was the name), which connected to a computer with a database of all the information they had. Except the power source for the forcefield was failing, so the forcefield had to slowly shrink, leading to the computer having to kill off people and erase their memories of it using the Link to prevent everyone from dying. When the SG-1 team tried to explain that, the population believed that taking off the Link would kill you(Even though, at the beginning of the episode, one of the council's members took off the Link to show it to SG-1) SG-1 finally convinced them that there was a problem and that they had to leave that planet.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
It already existed in 1984.. Well, it kind of did, this one actually worked off of your muscles in your head but it sure reminded me of the Atari Mindlink that was vapourware in 1984.
0 0/mindlink.html
Picture: http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/26
Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Mindlink
...I think "move my hand" and my hand moves the joystick. Simple really.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
Question: if brainwaves are used to control electronic devices, will the next step be that the electronic devices control the brainwaves?
Another question: who has the intelectual property rights to my brainwaves?
Still another question: are the thought police just around the corner?
CNN Headline "Forcefeedback NeuroWinder Secretly Brainwashes Kids into Supporting DRM"
I'd say that the opposite is true. You would probably have to spend time teaching the neurons in your brain how to talk to the interface.
:(){
The current state of video games means that you have a certain number of weapons and spells to choose from. Add to that, you have a limited means to control movement.
But what if you had a seperate interface for creating spells? If you could imagine strafing to the left and your screen would show that, this leaves you the ability to control other factors of the games with your hands, such as inputting the wanted combination of mana or elemental powers to create spell.
So instead of having your standard fireball attack, you could create a fireball/lightning orb combination on the fly.
Think "Wheel of Time" roleplaying FPS.
Does anyone remember the MindDrive being marketed by The Other 90%??
Given the utter lack of information at their website, here's an archived link from CNN.
Ah the beginnings of the first tech bubble..
Im ADD you insensitive clot.
There is a Windows/OS X Game already out there that uses Biofeedback to control the action. It's called The Journey to Wild Divine http://www.wilddivine.com/ and comes with a USB "device" that clips on to three fingers and measures heart rate variability and skin conductance.
From the Game's Website:
The Journey to Wild Divine's innovative biofeedback hardware platform measures skin conductance level (SCL) and heart rate variability through the three, gently attached finger sensors. The measurements are registered through the "Light Stone" and fed back to you through biofeedback activities on the screen.
Mentors within The Journey help you learn to control your body's reactions. By increasing, decreasing or synchronizing body rhythms, through various levels of breathing, relaxation, and meditation techniques you'll quickly learn to master the activites and begin using these techniques everyday in throughout your life.
From an Amazon Review:
This is on the face of it an adventure game. A Myst style wander around solving puzzles and looking for objects way to relax. The twist of it is that it uses biofeedback to control what is happening. You use a standard point and click to travel from place to place. Once there the puzzles are operated by using the biofeedback to raise or lower your "energy" level. I don't know if they are using temperature, pulse rate, or galvanic response but it works surprisingly well. It is really cool to see kites or balloons, or balls, or whatever floating up or down and being able to control them just by thinking. The hard part I found was that just as I would almost get relaxed enough to reach my goal, I'd think "Yeah!, I did it!' and my energy level would crash so I'd have to start over. The puzzle where you are stacking rocks was the most interesting for me because you had to raise and lower your energy to set the rock down in just the right place.
This could cause an uneasy oscillation between terror and soothing gameplay. Imagine walking through Ravenhold in HL2 and all of the sudden a headcrab zombie lunges at you, claws grabbing for your throat... You jump in your seat and the game detects that you have freaked out. The zombie stops, visibly relaxes, then produces a bunch of flowers for you. Realising that it means you no harm, you relax. It then detects your newly found relaxed state and just before it gives you the flowers, it lunges for you, taking a considerable chunk of flesh out of your face. You jump again, and the game detects this and tells the zombie crawling up behind you to go into "backrub mode". In the end, I think I'd prefer nice predictable adrenaline inducing terror :P
Blessed are the 1337, for they shall pwn the earth.
One thing that always irks me about the slashdot crowd is that they tend to have more pessimism about emerging technologies than you'd think most nerd/geek crowds would have.
It is almost like everyone has a luddite streak in them that they just don't believe these things will happen just because we don't have StrongAI promised in 2001: Space Oddessy or flying cars like in Jetsons.
I know slashdot is getting old (with the 40+ something crowd being the majority of its readers), but c'mon!
2050? More like 2020 (or 2015 even).
Technological progress is increasing at an accelerating rate (pardon sounding like Ray Kurzweil) and we shouldn't be downplaying things outright. Sure EGG technologies needs a bit of scrutiny, but these guys aren't building Fusion plants or sending rockets to Mars.
We are talking about things that if they had enough funding as they guys who did the Phantom Console had, they might be able to bring a product to market by 2010-2015ish.
Heck... If you told me about the internet or cell phones of today in 1990, I thought you would be talking about a sci-fi novel or something, but look at what is going on.
Don't downplay emerging tech til we see them go bust.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Bruce Wayne can put on his bat outfit and defeat the Riddler before this invention destroys mankind.
Others can be subconscious. The game could slow down, for instance, if the sensors pick up an increase in anxiety, Lee said.
I couldn't beat the last stage, but I ate a bottle of Xanax and now I have the highest score!
The Phantom console people announced plans for a "Top Secret" optional controler interface.
You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
Bollocks! It will speed up if you show any such sign of weakness!
Monsters will now be able to ambush you, literally, when you least expect it.
http://outcampaign.org/
Every once in a while, it becomes unavoiadable to quote Alpha Centauri.
The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
"Some of the game play features can be conscious -- such as forcing someone to concentrate in order to drive a car faster or toss something at an enemy."
That'll bring a new level of realism to games! Instead of these unrealistic steering wheels and pedals, we'll have to concentrate to accelerate, unconcentrate to brake, and er something else to steer.
Thing is, we already have neural interfaces. I'm using one right now to put my thoughts into this reply.
I work in a lab, ding brain-computer interface experiments in monkeys and patients. I can say that the ability to ocntrol a video game with a non-invasive technique is a LONG way off. Right now we can get relatively decent 2D control using EEGs but there ae two basic problems. 1) All cheap (and most expensive) EEG caps cost serious money and require conductive compound between electrodes and the scalp. The procedure just to put on a basic 64 channel cap takes about 20-30 minutes. 2) The current techniques use modulations of oscillations of thousands of cells in the cortex that can vary for a million different reasons, and outside a strictly controlled demo, the applications are limited. In order to do this 'stress response' type command in a game, you would need additional electrodes to do things like measure skin conductance, because on its own, the EEG signals would be indistinguishable from one of the dimensions of movement. It is more likely that if you got stressed, you would turn left more, or some such oddity. The richness of data from non-invasive techniques does not afford itself to precise control. it is that simple. (I was approached about 3 years ago to work on a brain interface for a console to debute with a game version of Ender's Game. They said they wanted it under $100. I told them to come back in 15 years.)
Intelligent design theory would say that a wasting away in this and most cases would be as a result of corruption of the intelligent design.
I maintain Howard Dean's behavior that was considered detestable in Iowa was more sane than most people's everyday behavior.y _dean.php
http://www.all-encompassingly.com/craz
Crazy Dean? No his behaivior I understand and makes sense to me. It's all you other people's behavior that's truely self-defeating.
Is this really news or this the kind of crap like they shot in the 50's where they claimed everyone would own a robot and dive a flying car by 1980.
The processing requirements for detecting anxiety through brainwaves might be a bit beyond current technology.
May I sugest a rectal insert instead.
This EEG gaming technology already exists and IS shipping, watch videos here !
OTOH it would be fun to be able to hack Bush and make him say dumb things in public.... but nobody would notice.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Now just imagine Nethack with one of those.
seriously, as if there arent enough addicted gamers out there? and what is this going to do to those who are already addicted? the stories of those who litterally play until they die from fatuige will become so common, it wont even hit the news, just another warning label.
then again, if it was sofisticated enough, it could detect the fatuige, hunger, or the need to release waste, and kick you out of the game, either directly giving you the boot, or indirectly by letting nothing happen (yea, i definately dont see a huge gamer outcry agiasnt that. oh wait...)
01001010
"I have read about how people perceive time to slow when they are in a situation that causes an adrenaline rush."
Oddly enough, the opposite happens to me sometimes when I get an adrenaline rush. Sometimes I perceive time to quicken, sometimes to the point where I can (from my perception) read books near-instantly, and see old ladies in walkers walking to their cars at 60mph. It's an odd occorance, but it is kind of fun when it happens.
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California CCW information, sheriff elections
ass invasion to come... poop-detector connected to scent emitter enables all neurally-connected players the opportunity for tap out "First Sniff" and to speak into the mic, "somebody fahted"...
Whatever happened to the scent emitter ideas. In urban warfare games, the smell of carrion, cordite, and more could REALLY get the adrenaline flowing behind every firewall and digital fireline.
Maybe those rumbling chairs might see more sales...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
On an old show called "Beyond 2000", in about 1990, I saw a working demo of a 3D environment. A lot like early FPS's, you could see a C.G. person from 3rd person perspective. The C.G.P. was walking around his environment being controlled by a real persons thoughts, I think they just had some kind of clip on there finger. I have often wondered where that technology had gone and why we weren't seeing it in the mid-late 90's. Better late than never I guess.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
Im working a device that will do everything... I haven't set a timetable for the product launches though.
I'll get excited when I see it on the shelves.
Users... the only thing keeping 1st level support from being the bottom feeders.
just hook it into my veins!
BZA teaches CogSci 160 at UCSD during the summer on brain computer interfaces. The material covered in the class is found at http://www.cis.gsu.edu/brainlab/PapersOtherWriting s.htm if anyone's interested. Last year I remember he had the record for the highest data rate on record for some EEG interface. Great professor, great class, and great reality check on what these interfaces can actually do now or relatively soon (bring access to the disabled, perform simple games) and what they aren't even meant to do (Johnny Mnemonic).
Wow, I wonder if they were also working on a space RTS that you controlled vocally.
This is not a good thing.
Games should be about setting goals and giving the player as much freedom as is sane to allow them to reach that goal. There are already too many limitations. I like linear games, but I demand a certain amount of... at least the illusion of choice. An example of forced choices are the Final Fantasy X combat tutorials -- only one menu option is selectable when your character "wants" to do something.
However, FFX had a lot of freedom, too -- a zombie boss that could be killed by throwing healing potions at it (3 to kill), and the ability to actually attack your teammates. It'd suck if they decided that your party would never attack itself -- that Yuna would never hit Auron -- a hit removes confusion, Yuna doesn't hit for much, and she can't always cast spells, but I'd rather not have Auron hit Yuna while "confused" -- my Auron could one-hit my party.
So, here's what I hate about having something based on "mood" or "concentration" -- I like having more than one way to do it. I like being able to get mad and button-mash like crazy, or be completely calm, have no adrenaline at all, and win by reflex.
Neural interfaces should be for immersion purposes only, I think. I want a Matrix-like interface, such that attempting to move my hand will move my hand in-game, leaving my hand-on-the-chair alone. I want to be able to see, hear, and feel the game world as if it was real, while I'm just sitting in the chair. And I want to be able to think whatever the hell I want while I'm doing it. I do NOT want a DDR-like message of "Hurr... You seem too angry. Want to try again?"
But, I should stop ranting, because I can actually think of at least one or two good uses -- an Incredible Hulk game that requires extreme calm sometimes, to avoid becoming the beast, and extreme rage others, to fuel the beast. It'd also be nice for a few odd games that are to help meditation, say. But I don't want it integrated into the games I've got now.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
What the guys at NeuroSky are describing is complete vaporware. I work with brain signal data myself and know quite a few people who do. Basically, at present there are two methods that kind of work:
You implant a bunch of electrodes into a person's brain. See Michael Black's work (Brown University) on analyzing this data. You get roughly 30 bit per minute out of this. With some training a bit more. This is done for people who are seriously disabled, i.e. quadruplegics where you implant the electrodes in the motor cortex (useless for people who cannot move their limbs).
An alternative is to use EEGs. They usually come with about 100 electrodes, take an hour to put on and require lots of conductive gel. For instance Klaus Muller's group (Fraunhofer Institute Berlin) does such work. They get up to 20 bit per minute data rates. And yes, you can play simple games (they've got a cool demo of a person playing pong using the electrodes).
The big caveat is that there's just absolutely no way you can put a few electrodes onto your brain and get the information out that the NeuroSky people are claiming. The entire stuff looks really fishy, when you check their homepage http://www.neurosky.com/. Pretty much no information on who does the work, what their technology is, etc.
If you're interested in this subject, why not contribute to an opensource project to be able to build and operate a similar device? "The OpenEEG project is about creating a low cost EEG device. Working hardware has been built and is in a late beta stage. Software is still only alpha." from http://sourceforge.net/projects/openeeg "The OpenEEG project is about making plans and software for do-it-yourself EEG devices available for free (as in GPL). It is aimed toward amateurs who would like to experiment with EEG. However, if you are a pro in any of the fields of electronics, neurofeedback, software development etc., you are of course welcome to join the mailing-list and share your wisdom. Right now, this site is mostly about the hardware; schematics, part lists, building instructions etc. However, a few members have developed some useful software which is hosted on their own websites. You can find these through the software pages." from http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/
I'd love to have the sensation of pulling G's while flying a flight simulator.
"Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
Now Sony can rootkit our brains.
With proper design, bullet-time wouldn't be something that you have to push a button to engage, it would be directly related to how focused you actually are. Now that would be cool!
Also, the whole idea of the game slowing down based on anxiety levels was just an option that they gave. It would be just as easy for the game designers to reverse that. When (in the Matrix example) an Agent can see that you are getting worn out and frustrated, they start fighting harder. The more stressed and off-balance you are, the harder the game gets. I would enjoy that.
Take it to the limit, everybody to the limit, come on, everybody fhqwhgads.
PS9
http://www.methodstudios.com/mox251
...to a Phantom game console near you!
I thought a story about the following game had been posted on /., but maybe it was Wired.com. I know for a fact that it was part of NextFest, at least when it was at Chicago. Check out Brainball. It's a game where players control the motion of a metal ball along a single axis by relaxing their mind and generating alpha and theta waves. The more relaxed you are, the more you can move the ball.
The group that developed Brainball has other devices that are controlled by your mind. They even have a "bar" that dispenses drinks based on your brainwaves.