Pepper Pad, an Open Alternative to MS Origami

SilentBob4 writes to tell us that MadPenguin has a look at an open alternative to Microsoft's Origami, the Pepper Pad. From the article: "The Pepper Pad, like Origami, is a mid-point form factor PC that is bigger and more powerful than a PDA, but smaller and less optimized for traditional desktop PC tasks than a notebook computer or a desktop PC. The Pepper Pad is a good buy for people who would like to have a light-weight, dirt-simple, point-and-click open source device for watching videos, listening to music, reading e-books, and doing simple web surfing with a view screen that is actually easy to read. If you want do more than that, you are really better off getting a small Linux notebook, unless you are willing to get under the hood (which you can do with the Pepper Pad!) and start compiling for yourself."

Comments

Who chooses these names?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do they hold a 'Most Hippiest Thing I've Ever Heard' contest or what?

Re:Who chooses these names?

[__aaclcg7560]

No. They go to the Google page, type gibberish and hit the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button to randomly find a cute name that hasn't been taken. This also works for finding baby names. :P

Re:Who chooses these names?

[porkThreeWays]

I know this is a joke, but odd names are GREAT for search engines. It makes searching a billion times easier. Ever try searching for something C related? How about ubuntu or maemo? You tell me which gets you more accurate results.

Re:Who chooses these names?

[jholmes12]

Well at least its better than Nintendo's Wii.

Re:Who chooses these names?

[unitron]

"No. They go to the Google page, type gibberish and hit the "I'm Feeling Lucky" button to randomly find a cute name that hasn't been taken. This also works for finding baby names. :P"

Insert remark about recent births to celebrities here.

Re:Who chooses these names?

[Traiklin]

Ever try searching for something C related?

Yeah I try to every now and then, but all that seems to come up is "MONSTER COCKS TEARING APART TINY PUSSY'S!!!!" I didn't realize that had anything to do with C.

Re:Who chooses these names?

[Hal_Porter]

I guess the alternative was already taken -

http://www.pi55.com/

Input

[Umbral Blot]

No offense to the people who make these devices, but they need better text input than the minisule keyboard that the image for this product shows it having. Stop trying to put all the keys there and innovate. Maybe something like a chorded keyboard? I really want a small computing device, which I could whip out and take a note or two on, but as long as it is easier to write on paper it seems silly to switch to something like this.

Re:Input

[Moofie]

Innovation doesn't change my muscle memory. If you want to use a chorded keyboard, there's nothing stopping you. I don't, however, think that a large number of people are interested in learning a new way of typing. Learning the regular way was a huge PITA.

Re:Input

[MadUndergrad]

The problem with something like a chorded keyboard is the learning curve. It seems like one would need a lot of practice to type at a decent speed, much less learn all the combinations. Still, the tiny keyboards completely suck. Voice input might be a better solution, but that's not without its own problems.

Re:Input

[Umbral Blot]

there is plenty stopping me, the device doesn't come with one, and who wants to carry a usb keyboard arround for a portable device?

Re:Input

[Umbral Blot]

Yeah, the learning curve is a problem, but there enough small devices out there that we are going to need a better solution eventually. It is probably better to simply bite the bullet and learn something new (which would become the defacto standard if the product had any popularity at all). Its either that or find a better way to go from stylus to text, but I don't see that happening any time soon (unless you are willing to learn a new way of writing with the stylus, like some people did for their pdas).

Re:Input

[EvanED]

Supposedly the handwriting recognition of Windows Mobile is very good.

I think that handwriting is a MUCH better approach than trying to do voice recognition, which another poster said. You could use it in a croweded room and not worry about either interference or being heard, or in a library. Depending on the application, handwriting recoginition could be better than a keyboard too. It'd probably be faster for almost everyone (even if it would be possible to type faster, I would guess almost no one would spend enough time learning to reach that point) and would have essentially no learning curve.

Finally, you might look at a project called Dasher. I don't think I'd actually want to use it for anything big, but it's a very interesting concept and pretty darn cool.

Re:Input

[arrrrg]

I'm surprised these things haven't started showing up in mobile devices yet. I guess maybe they're still a bit too pricy, and maybe a bit too large. Wouldn't be a total replacement for a keyboard, since you want to be able to provide input without putting the device down on a desk -- but would be great for when you want to do some serious typing.

Re:Input

[Anonymous Coward]

but would be great for when you want to do some serious typing.
That would be true if:

-You weren't hitting a hard unmoving surface reputedly with your fingers, ouch.
-You could hit more than one key at once.

In other words there is no demand due to: being restricted to really slow hunt and peck, and susceptible to pain after prolonged usage.

Re:Input

[charlievarrick]

I was going to say "it has a touch screen and a stylus and that should be adequate for 'a note or two' blah, blah, blah" but apparently this device does not support handwriting recognition. http://laptopmag.com/Review/Pepper-Pad.htm
TFA does not appear to mention this, (unless i missed it).

Re:Input

[fean]

A chorded keyboard on a mobile device would be difficult at best, Thumb-boards, etc are around because you have to hold on to the device and type at the same time.. The could solve this by putting other keys on the back of the device, but this would mean you would HAVE to hold the device to input text, it would make cases for the device much MUCH more complex, AND it would not be able to be sold to the "it makes my life easier" crowd, since they would have to learn a new way to enter keys. (and really, something like this isn't something that someone would get to try to be more productive, it's pure entertainment)

The chorded keyboards that are out there now are a handful all by themselves, however it would go GREAT with a hand held device... one hand to hold, one hand to type.

You won't ever see a chorded keyboard built into a mass-produced item, because someone with common sense will point out why they shouldn't do it.

Although, an add-on to a PDA would work well, I suppose I should trademark that.

Re:Input

[Moofie]

So you don't want to use the input device you like. Uh, OK, Sparky.

I can type with my thumbs faster and more legibly than I can write. It would take me months to get as proficient with a chorded keyboard.

Re:Input

[LordLucless]

That's not the market they're aiming for. From the article, the Pepper Pad "is going to be optimized more for data consumption than data creation". These things are designed primarily for audio/video playback and web-browsing. Of the three, only web-browsing requires a keyboard interface, and that only for entering username/passwords (although this could be cached in the browser) or for typing in URLs. People may use it for posting to blogs (or slashdot), but that's getting back to production rather than consumption.

The main problem I see with this product? No DVD drive. What's that all about? For a product that's aiming for the mobile video market, how can you ignore DVD support?

Re:Input

[vonFinkelstien]

Nothing is stopping you from plugging in an USB keyboard.

Re:Input

[christian.einfeldt]

hi LordLucLes,

The main problem I see with this product? No DVD drive. What's that all about? For a product that's aiming for the mobile video market, how can you ignore DVD support?

Three words re DVD drives: cost, size, and weight. Okay, that's four words. But you get my point.

Also, IMHO, the designers are planning you carrying multiple GB flash drives, which are now available for $99 US. I really think that DVDs are on their way out.

Re:Input

[dindi]

i was thinking the same thing .... then i looked at the 800 price tag .. hmm for $200 more you get a nice ibook, or maybe an older picturebook or other mini-laptop, that makes a lot more use than that HIP device ...

btw, what computer was that in the beginning of mission impossible 3 ? looked like something with small screen but full keyboard ... hmm... anyway :)

so bottom line is: if you wanna whip something out to write on, whip a small laptop ... palmtops, cellphones, these pads are useless - for me at least ....

Re:Input

[flim]

For a product that's aiming for the mobile video market, how can you ignore DVD support?

For the same reason as modern music players don't have a cd drive? The availability of mp3 like music might be higher, but one has to start at some point.

Re:Input

[bored_engineer]

. . . then i looked at the 800 price tag .. hmm for $200 more you get a nice ibook, or . . .

I had precisely the same thought. An ibook boots quickly, runs from battery almost as long as this does and is much more capable than this. Good call, I think.

Re:Input

[K'thardin]

I swear to whatever supreme being may or may not be out there, but this has got to be one of the more unintelligent things I've seen to date. I'll just start with the highlights.

Don't get me wrong, the idea behind it is great, but the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

First off, 20 GB? C'mon guys. You need to get that up to 60-80GB to be really useful. 100+ GB is a bit of a pipedream at the moment, but you should be shooting for that later on.

USB 1.1...yeah, when I want to transfer huge movie files in several hours, I'll get right on that.

What, no firewire A port? C'mon, this would be the perfect device to hook up to your miniDV camera to.

Nice battery life there folks. I'd hate to be playing MAME or something similar on that thing...it'd die before I got anywhere cool with it.

Re:Input

[Anonymous Coward]

Chord keyboards usually can't be used by a "hunt and peck" method, so their use is restricted to applications where additional training can be justified.

tell that to the majority of people who use hunt and peck.

not to mention the big note of SHORTHAND at the bottom

The left hand spells out the beginning of a syllable, while the right hand spells out the end; all keys are pressed at the same time, and the machine produces an alphabet soup that's incomprehensible to anyone who's not trained in machine shorthand.

Re:Input

[moro_666]

for the dvd drive, the cost you can scratch from the list, it doesn't cost a dime in these days. however you are right on size and weight, anything smaller than a laptop should not have it. maybe we'll see fully flash disk based notebooks in the near future ? would be really nice.

i was disappointed when i saw the measures of a device. 30x17cm , this is like ... erm ... almost as big as my laptop, and at the same time if you compare the features and compatibility with other stuff out there (inc. dvd's :p) , the tablet thingy doesn't stand a chance.

if i'd want something portable i'd still go for ipaq, if i want something more it's much safer to go for a laptop, at least it's a safe choice (you know what you get).

ps. i never watch dvd-s on their own, i always rip them at first into the machine and then watch from there, the spinning sound of the modern optical devices just drives you crazy and ruins the film/music.

-------
the bastard sold me the laptop without capital letters ...

Re:Input

[bufalo_1973]

Mortal Kombat? Killer Instinct? King of Fighters? Tekken? Are you telling me this games are easy to fully learn? If you want to learn the moves you have to play a lot. You can't do the moves the first time. If someone want's to learn something s/he will learn it. And using a chorded keyboard is the same.

Re:Input

[doti]

Like this one? http://www.fentek-ind.com/kbmflusbps2b.htm

Re:Input

[Zeinfeld]

I was going to say "it has a touch screen and a stylus and that should be adequate for 'a note or two' blah, blah, blah" but apparently this device does not support handwriting recognition.

Probably because the article is pretty much Linux boosterism. They start with the untrue claim that this has beaten the windows devices to market. Some Windows devices have already shipped.

I get a bit tired of apple/linux advocacy of the 'lets ignore every defect of our system' variety. Its like watching the idiot talking heads on the Sunday chat shows. Today the left will be trying to explain why driving on prescription drugs is no big deal whil the right try to claim that the resignation of the CIA Director had nothing to do with the gay hookers being ferried to the Watergate building to spice up the poker parties attended by GOP congressmen and the guy he appointed number 3 in the agency.

If only the partisans on either side would just once admit 'hey one of our guys screwed up'.

I blogged on Pepper earlier. I won't go into the full details but I think that the PC makers have so far botched the midi format. The original premise was that the format would be cheap, so the makers don't want to make the devices too good in case they poach customers from the existing laptop market. So they make sure that a couple of features they identify as essential for 'power users' are stripped out.

The feature that has been stripped out of all the devices to date is video out. The Pepper device has composite out for a TV but you can't hook it up to a projector to do PowerPoint (or open office equivalent). Without that capability the device is no use to me personally and I suspect no use to most of the intended early adopters. Adapters, add on cards don't cut it, the capability has to be native to the machine.

The main early adopters of a device like this are likely to be salesmen. They have the budget to buy toys, they do a lot of travel. Without the ability to present its useless.

The other killer app I suspect would be photographers who want a super-duper media vault. But anyone doing that is almost certain to want to have photoshop on the device as well and the ability to hook up to a full size display when available.

The thumb board is a welcome development, although it is forced on this device due to lack of good open source handwriting recognition (too many patents for that to be viable) I think it will quickly appear on the windows ones as well.

Re:Input

[Zeinfeld]

First off, 20 GB? C'mon guys. You need to get that up to 60-80GB to be really useful. 100+ GB is a bit of a pipedream at the moment, but you should be shooting for that later on.

As I said earlier, the original premise here was that these devices would be cheap. Of course the main determinant of cheap is volume so you don't get cheap by stripping out features.

I think that is is possible to have either a small disk or no DVD support, both is a disaster. What I would want to do with the device is to fill it up with films ripped from the home media vault before going on a trip. I don't want to have to take DVDs on the road with me.

20Gb is tight for a PC these days. It is pretty easy to eat up 5Gb with the O/S and basic applications (Firefox, Google Earth, Office, &ct). I have 6Gb of ripped CDs. that leaves less than 10Gb for video, thats only 2 DVDs.

I agree that no USB2.0 or Firewire really cripples the device as a mobile media vault. I can't download my video camera in the field.

This looks to me to be something that a manufacturer botched together as quickly as they could for the sole purpose of announcing the device before the big manufacturers put their Origami devices on sale. The size of the device makes it clear that it has a laptop motherboard inside. So the only development specific to this model is the case.

Incidentally, I am a little suspicious of just how available the device is. The few sites that have the device all show the same drawing, I could find only two actual photographs and its not possible to see whether the display is real or simulated in either. The Internet Tablet 770 Nokia was selling at the IETF is certainly genuine, smaller, neater and more capable.

Re:Input

[Anonymous Coward]

They start with the untrue claim that this has beaten the windows devices to market. Some Windows devices have already shipped.

Uh, the Pepper has been available since last year. I've even seen a couple out in the wild.

Re:Input

[Zeinfeld]

Uh, the Pepper has been available since last year. I've even seen a couple out in the wild.

OK, I still don't see a reason to say Microsoft is 'pimping' Origami. Its unprofessional to talk that way and it just irritates people who are not hardcore Microsoft haters.

Re:Input

[Russ Nelson]

It's a great hack, but completely impractical. If you had a flat surface on which you could put something, you'd put a keyboard there, not a simulation of one. Sure, this device is smaller, however, you can get a flex keyboard from Radio Shack that rolls up about as small. Sure, this device uses bluetooth, but given that you can only use it when you have a flat level surface, a cable wouldn't be much of a hinderance.

Re:Input

[jdbartlett]

You know, I quite like the idea of the split keyboard, but can't help wondering how comfortable it would be after an hour or so of typing, especially with those rubber buttons. Possibly no nastier than an hour of GBA use? Hmm.

Everyone here seems pretty keen on handwriting recognition tools, but the few such devices I've used (a character recognition PDA and Word on a larger touch-screen device) have been either frustratingly slow or just uncomfortable. Maybe Apple's photosensor LCD will lead to improvements. For me, the only text input device that feels comfortable is a keyboard, and my 12" PowerBook is only slightly larger than the Pepper Pad.

Re:Input

[Eideewt]

But games tend to reward you as you go along. Typing is pretty much impossible until you learn most of the chords.

Re:Input

[Al Dimond]

So if you have no DVD drive but a multi-GB flash drive on this thing you have to rip your DVDs in order to watch real movies on the device. That requires the use of "illegal" software (DVD rippers were at least at one point considered illegal, I don't know the exact details but they might not be illegal anymore; whether it's illegal or not it's certainly not something encouraged by the mainstream software vendors and content creators), and although banning software that might potentially be used for illegal things is stupid it's still a consideration. But more importantly it's a real pain in the ass. If I was going to go watch a movie on a portable device (not sure why I'd ever do this in the first place, but hypothetically...) I'd have to first rip it to my computer then copy the rip onto a flash drive. I'd need a flash drive with gigantic capacity and a few gigabytes to spare on my hard drive. If I want to watch very many movies I'll eventually have to buy more hard drives or burn data DVDs full of compressed rips and keep them in giant binders: I'll have turned into my brother!

I guess this is why we have UMD movies, although I can't imagine who'd ever want to buy a movie that can only be played on a PSP.

Any inaccuracies in this post are due to the fact that I very rarely buy or watch movies, especially on DVD (for me to buy a DVD, my appreciation of the quality of the work must overwhealm my distaste for their attempt to build DRM into the DVD format; future movie formats will only exaggerate my stance, by the looks of things, and I'll be confined to theater viewing, which honestly is fine with me because then I don't have to bother with all this expensive "home theater" crap).

Re:Input

[fm6]

Whenever a device like this appears on Slashdot, there are always posts that say in effect, "But it doesn't support what I'd like it to do!" You should evaluate a product in terms of what it tries to do, not what you want it to do.

Re:Input

[ansible]

The size of the device makes it clear that it has a laptop motherboard inside.

It runs an Intel XScale processor, not a desktop/laptop x86 one. I assure you it is not a laptop mobo inside.

Incidentally, I am a little suspicious of just how available the device is.

I am more than a little worried about this too. I was thinking about ordering one (after finishing reading all reviews I could find), but it doesn't seem to be too available right now.

Re:Input

[bufalo_1973]

Then if someone wants to sell this kind of keyboard has to bundle it with a game that teaches typing. Something like a RTS would be nice. This or a Mario Bros clone :)

Re:Input

[Sj0]

I think I'm in the majority when I say that I don't want or need to learn some proprietary keyboard format. QWERTY or nothing, because my time is worth more than that.

Re:Input

[Sj0]

Well...Pimpin' ain't easy.

Re:Input

[Sj0]

And why is that?

We don't buy products to do what others want to do, we buy them for what WE want to do. At least, that's what the sane among us do.

To try to confine our views to what the machine claims to do is to fall prey to marketing.

Re:Input

[bufalo_1973]

And if it wasn't propietary?

Re:Input

[fm6]

Huh? PDAs suck because they make lousy servers? Shampoo sucks because it makes lousy toothpaste?

Re:Input

[Sj0]

It would be. Every one until now has been.

Re:Input

[Sj0]

If there are server appliances in the same form factor as the pda, then yes. If I'm not looking for toothpaste, but shampoo, then yes.

In this case, we're talking about a device which is in a certain form factor, and that form factor requires it to be capable of doing certain things, or it's not useful. Just like a unicycle is useless compared to a bicycle, if this device is incapable of meeting the standard set by similar devices in functionality, then it is forced to be judged similarly.

Sure, a unicycle is a great vehicle for clowns to look silly on, but the bicycle is similar, but better. In this case, people are looking at other similar devices and entirely appropriately pointing out deficiencies. "If I want smaller, there's a PDA that can do almost as much, and if I want more powerful, there are similarly sized laptops that I can get for virtually half the price. Where is the usefulness of this device in terms of what *I* want to do?"

Re:Input

[geminidomino]

and if I want more powerful, there are similarly sized laptops that I can get for virtually half the price.

I haven't seen these posts. Can you tell me what sort of laptop we're talking?

This isn't a challenge, I'm looking to replace my old Vaio laptop. ;)

Re:Input

[Ginger Unicorn]

I think you're missing the point; if they are producing a device that is designed to be a portable media viewer and is marketed as such, the only valid criticisms to level at it would be about its performance as such.

The article stipulates over and over that this thing has a niche, and that although it runs linux and is pretty hackable dont expect it to be much good at anything it wasnt designed for.

Your arguement implies that if you are looking for shampoo, any advertising for toothpaste you happen to see at that time are failed attempts to sell you shampoo in the form of toothpaste, which is a rather autistic worldview.

I also curious to know how the size of an object prescribes what it is supposed to be used for. My cheese grater has the same form factor as a PepperPad, but I dont expect to be able to listen to music on it.

The point of this product is that is big enough to comfortably view movies on (which a PDA is not) and not big and heavy like a notepad.

Re:Input

[indifferent children]

I still don't see a reason to say Microsoft is 'pimping' Origami.

The damn thing has spinners and velvet upholstry. It has definitely been pimped.

Re:Input

[Sj0]

If you limit critisism to it's use as a media device (in which case, the fact that it runs linux and a slew of applications is an awfully strange dillution), you're stuck looking at an overpriced, overpowered piece of hardware with a pathetic battery life.

If someone tried to sell me a digital media player with 2 hours of battery life, I'd cockpunch them. If they tried to sell it to me for 800 dollars, I'd cockpunch them and steal their wallet.

Re:Input

[Ginger Unicorn]

the fact it runs linux isnt really a strange dilution. it's just a kernel, which any digital media player is going to need. the applications it comes with are purely to display various types of media, including the web, so not much diluting going on there. i agree the battery life is absolutely minimal and isnt much use if you want to watch more than one movie. and yes 800 dollars is a ripoff. i dont think it's overpowered though - they seemed to have designed it with enough oomph to decode modern video files.

Re:Input

[Sj0]

To say much more, I'll have to wait until I grab a 20-30gb card for my palm, which I intend to use as a media center.

That's not the near future though, so You could be correct with regards to the processing requirement.

Does that come with a cell phone?

[madshot]

Now if we could get all that plus a built in cell phone with built in broad band to bluetooth to my network and give me broadband. Too bad I'll probably end up with brain cancer with all those waves bouncing off the walls. ;-)

Re:Does that come with a cell phone?

[randomErr]

No cell phone but the next upgrade is suppose to have SIP built in it. SO a WiFi hotspot will act as a cell phone.

Not Bad

[datafr0g]

Bit short on the HDD space (20GB), especially given that these devices are intended to be used for data consumption - I'd expect there'd be a little more space for movies, etc. Battery life really needs to be sorted out too at 2 hours.

Other than that - cool!

One question though - how do you hold these things safely? You know, like Laptops not being recommended for use in your lap? Laptops (or notebooks, whatever), will sit fine on a table, these things don't look like they would. I noticed a small stand on the back of the image but - I dunno - it seems more like a device I'd want to hold rather than have it set up on a table or desk - sort of kills the portability aspect for me.

Re:Not Bad

[christian.einfeldt]

hi datafr0g,

One question though - how do you hold these things safely? You know, like Laptops not being recommended for use in your lap? Laptops (or notebooks, whatever), will sit fine on a table, these things don't look like they would. I noticed a small stand on the back of the image but - I dunno - it seems more like a device I'd want to hold rather than have it set up on a table or desk - sort of kills the portability aspect for me.

Holding this thing is one of the design improvements that the designers probably should look at for the next version. If you take a look at my video on the referenced article, you will see that I am holding it by the sides, sort of like you would hold a frisbee. The more I worked with this Pepper Pad, the more I was convinced that it was primarily for playing back a few videos at a time on short plane rides, and for surfing the web in airports. And one of the reasons for it is exactly what you are pointing out -- holding onto the thing is a bit cumbersome. But once you set it down on the stand, it all makes sense: it's a portable touch screen. It's an MP3 player with a very large view screen. It's an iPod on steroids. It's a bird. It's a plane. It's ... wait, I almost got off track there.

Seriously though, yeah holding it is a problem. But with the short battery life, you aren't really going to be holding it for long anyway. If you get one of these puppies, you are going to be elbowing your way to the power outlet in the airport, so that you can surf for a few minutes, and then you are going to be using it in the airplane to watch video.

Also, think of what life will be like when Eyespot grows up. You will be editing video with these things, and then emailing the short video clips around to your family and friends. So you will get an email in the airport with a video file as an attachment. You will download it from your gmail account. You will move a few sequences around here and there with Eyespot using the Pepper Pad touch screen, and then send it back to whomever sent it to you. It's a toy.

Re:Not Bad

[Shadyman]

I think the stand's there if you want to watch movies or other long processes, but you can fold up the stand and carry it around to browse the internet or take notes. I still think that keyboard will hurt, though...

Another product solution

[ElitistWhiner]

waiting for the right problem to solve.

This is what happens when engineers get to spec what they like, without requirements.

Re:Another product solution

[anagama]

I play go at a coffee shop near my office once a week. There's a guy who comes there with this Vaio thing -- I haven't looked at it very closely because it didn't interest me much, but essentially it's a little black brick with a small (6 or 7 inch range) but high resolution screen. It's probably a bit smaller than a 200 page hardback novel. Still, once he props it in an upright position, plugs in something to the upper left (wifi perhaps?) and plugs in a foldable keyboard, it takes up more room than a 12" laptop.

Add in a fresnel lens (think Brazil) to keep from going blind, and I don't see any advantage. And for those who like to keep their hands on the keyboard, using a touch pen is worse than a mouse. I saw a video demonstrating some of the earliest interfaces (early Englebert groundbreaking stuff in the 50s). At first they used a pen but found that people became very tired very quickly when they had to point at the screen with it repetively. With the Sony mentioned above in the propped up position, using the stylus pointer would be very tiring.

The fact is, we have hands of a particular size, visual capabilities of a particular resolution, and pockets too small to fit a device that meets those physical requirements. A pocketable AND usable computer is going to take some big leaps -- for instance glasses that function as high res displays (at reasonable prices, weights, and appearances) and a real break from finger oriented input. Whoever figures out how to free input from dependence on the human hand will make a bundle -- and they should because it isn't going to be an easy feat.

Re:Another product solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Your post is a perfect example of why the grandparent is completly correct. Fresnel lens my fat hairy arse.

I dunno...

[IANAAC]

If what you're looking for is a nice alternative to Windows Mobile, why not consider an import from either Dynamism or Trisoft? They both offer a smaller form factor Linux-based clamshell with better keyboards for half the price. Not only that, they have both SD and CF slots to expand storage.

I don't get the "gotta have" with this.

Tablet PCs that are able to run Linux are cheaper, if you're looking for a hard-disk based solution.

Re:I dunno...

[Aladrin]

I assume you mean this trisoft offering.

Eh, no. That's less than half the product for the same price! (There's a $150 rebate on Pepper Pad if you go to their website. Good until the end of May.)

As for Dynamism, I don't see anything on there that's linux, and nothing less than $1000. (Most are $2000+)

Prove me wrong. Please. I actively want to be wrong here.

Re:I dunno...

[denttford]

GP was suggesting the clamshell Zaurus models, which Dynamism does indeed sell.

I suspect you went looking under notebooks on their site; most consider the Zauruses in the PDA plus category; here's the link.

Re:I dunno...

[Aladrin]

Okay, yeah. That's the same item I linked to on the other site. And it's still more money and less hardware than the Pepper Pad.

Re:I dunno...

[IANAAC]

Actually, less hardware is kind of subjective. The Pepper Pad comes in at 12.1 inches. To me , that's not any more portable than a laptop. I guess I place a premium on the small size of the Zaurus. Plus, there's an incredibly active developer community that pretty much provides any type of application I could ever want or use on it.

Re:I dunno...

[Aladrin]

I don't intend to actually carry it around with me anywhere but at the house, so portability isn't really an issue. It's more of a computer that I can wander around the house with. I'm not willing to pay $2000 to support my adhd-like tendencies, but $650 is well within reason. (After the rebate.)

Unfortunately, I just noticed it doesn't use a standard kde or gnome desktop. That's not really what I'm looking for. Oh well. Money saved, I guess.

The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[Swift Kick]

This is not a new device, and has never really caught on, regardless of how many times you might scream it has Linux inside. It might be neat for those that just have the burning desire of throwing money away, and that's about it.

See for yourself...

- It was announced back in 2004, and Engadget mentioned it:

http://www.engadget.com/2004/09/08/the-pepper-pad- 2/

Then Tux Magazine reviewed it in April 2005, and it was still not available to the public:

http://www.tuxmagazine.com/node/1000125

Now it's available for sale, but for the price it's selling ($850), you can easily pick a cheap laptop with far more expandability for quite less.

Do you think it's portable? Think again. Look at the dimensions:

http://www.pepper.com/products/specifications.html

12.1" x 6.6" x 0.8" (309 x 175 x 20mm)
2.3 lbs (1043 grams)

Now, for something this big, why not get something that's cheaper and just better like say, the Dell Inspiron B120 for $499, with free memory and wifi upgrades? See for yourself:

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/features. aspx/featured_basnb?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

Just my 2 cents....

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[mrchaotica]

Now, for something this big, why not get something that's cheaper and just better like say, the Dell Inspiron B120 for $499, with free memory and wifi upgrades?

WTF, man?! You're complaining that the 2.3 lb Pepper Pad is too big, and then recommend getting a 6.41 lb Dell instead?! That just doesn't make sense.

Now, I'll tell you the real reason why nobody wants the damn thing: it's too flat-out weird. First of all, it runs Linux (no flames please; everyone should be able to admit that most people don't use Linux). Second, it's got a strange keyboard that you probably can't touch-type on. Third, the tiny screen (relative to the overall size of the thing) is just stupid. And finally, it's slow. I don't care what kind of IPC it has; 624 MHz just isn't fast enough for something big enough to be a real computer.

Now, you wanna know how to fix it? Turn it into a convertible tablet with a real keyboard, put in a bigger (10.4") screen, give it a decent CPU (e.g. 1+ GHz) and more RAM, and (as much as it pains me to say it) put Windows Tablet Edition (or better yet, Mac OS, but that's just a fantasy) on it.

In other words, turn it into this, except with a swiveling touchscreen. That would sell!

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[christian.einfeldt]

Hi SwiftKick,

This is not a new device

No, it's not a new device. I reviewed this product now because of the hype around Origami. For those of us who don't like DRM, and do like open source, I wanted to talk about the Pepper Pad in comparison to Origami. IIRC, none of the reviews that you cite in your post were written at a time when Origami had been announced. That's what's new. The context.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[LordLucless]

First of all, it runs Linux (no flames please; everyone should be able to admit that most people don't use Linux).

Nobody gives a stuff what OS it runs. As long as you can double-click the movie/audio icons to play them, most consumers won't notice that it's different to windows under the hood. They'd expect a device like this to have differences to a fully-fledged computer.

Second, it's got a strange keyboard that you probably can't touch-type on.

And yet, people are destroying their thumbs on mobile phone keypads daily. This is a step up from that, at the very least, and is not designed to be used to enter a lot of information. The article specifically says it's designed for media consumption - playing audio, video and surfing the web. If you think you're going to be using this thing to write reports, buy a laptop.

And finally, it's slow. I don't care what kind of IPC it has; 624 MHz just isn't fast enough for something big enough to be a real computer.

It's not trying to be a real computer. It's trying to be a media station. Nobody who uses it will care how fast it's clock-cycles are as long it doesn't skip during DVD playback.

Now, you wanna know how to fix it? Turn it into a convertible tablet with a real keyboard, put in a bigger (10.4") screen, give it a decent CPU (e.g. 1+ GHz) and more RAM, and (as much as it pains me to say it) put Windows Tablet Edition (or better yet, Mac OS, but that's just a fantasy) on it.

So, turn it into a laptop? I think all you've done is prove that you're not the target market for this device.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[mrchaotica]

The article specifically says it's designed for media consumption - playing audio, video and surfing the web. If you think you're going to be using this thing to write reports, buy a laptop.

I don't care what it's intended for, I only care about what it actually is. And what it actually is is an overpriced, obsolete laptop with a weird keyboard and tiny screen.

Besides, everything you just mentioned can be done just as well on a $250 PSP.

It's not trying to be a real computer. It's trying to be a media station. Nobody who uses it will care how fast it's clock-cycles are as long it doesn't skip during DVD playback.

It doesn't matter; anything as big as this is will be competing against "real computers," so it had better measure up or else it won't sell. The fact that it hasn't sold proves my point.

So, turn it into a laptop? I think all you've done is prove that you're not the target market for this device.

Wrong. I am exactly the market for a device like this. I've been looking for a small tablet device to take notes with at school, and I've considered everything from a PDA to a 4 lb Thinkpad X41 Tablet. This Pepper Pad is actually smack in the middle of what I want, except the deficiencies I mentioned already make it unusable. It's actually really frustrating, because it comes so close to being perfect -- and yet, so far.

It's absolutely ridiculous. I've looked at all of these things, and none of them are right:

• Nokia 770 - too small
• "Origami" device - too small, too expensive
• Pepper Pad - almost exactly the right size, but the screen is too small, there's way too many useless buttons (i.e. the keyboard that you can't touch-type on), and it's too slow for the price
• Sharp Actius MM20 - not a tablet (but it'd be perfect if it was)
• Motion LS800 - too expensive, screen is a little small
• Motion LE1600 - way too expensive
• Fujitsu Lifebook T4020 - too thick, too expensive, widescreen display is too narrow in portrait orientation
• Thinkpad X41 Tablet - too heavy
• any Tablet PC bigger than an X41 - way too heavy

It's amazing: all these different manufacturers keep shooting at the target, but they keep missing the bullseye. There's just no reason for it!

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[Swift Kick]

Thanks for your reply.

Could you explain why the article sounds more like a promotional marketing piece and less of a review?

How does it merit 9/10 stars when it has so many drawbacks (which you listed on the last page) that could be considered pretty serious?

Let's see, poor battery life on a device that's supposed to be portable. Check.
Touchscreen that is one of the strong selling points sometimes doesn't work. Check.
No sync cable included in a $850 device. Check.
A Linux-powered pad that can't sync to a Linux desktop. Check.

I'd say that right there, those would chop off at least 4 of the stars in your rating. Lots of small devices out there can browse the web admirably, have great screens, multiple connectivity, etc.

Gives us an objective review, not a fluff-filled article.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[Anonymous Coward]

hi SwiftKick, thanks for doing a critical reading of my review. Seriously. Who wants someone to say only good things about their work? You never learn anything that way.

Okay, now having said that, put up your dukes, dude, because you are WRONG! ;-) and here's why.

How does it merit 9/10 stars when it has so many drawbacks (which you listed on the last page) that could be considered pretty serious? Good question. Answer: because of the Pepper Pad's POTENTIAL!! Sure, there are problems, which I outlined in the article, but look at what the PP can be in the future. Please re-read the section entitled the ghost of Mark Andreeson returns:

"Marc Andreeson once boasted that Netscape would reduce Microsoft Windows to a slightly buggy set of drivers, and with the Pepper Pad, you can see a tiny microcosm of how that could yet come true."

http://madpenguin.org/cms/index.php/?m=show&id=682 7&page=3

If you look at the Pepper Pad only as a toy, which is its selling point to individual consumers, you are not seeing the big picture. IMHO, the Pepper Pad deserves a 9/10 because it is one small additional voice toward emphasizing that the "Network is the Computer", and the operating system is less relevant. Please read "Seeing What's Next" by Clayton Christensen, Erik Roth, and Scott Anthony. There, they talk in depth about how disruptive innovations such as the Pepper Pad could be the undoing of Microsoft's monopoly. Here, in summary, is what Christensen thinks of web applications and Microsoft:

"Where Linux takes root is in new applications, like Web servers and handheld devices. As those get better, applications will get sucked off the desktop onto the Internet, and that's what will undo Microsoft," he [Christensen] said. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/windows/0,3902039 6,39170562,00.htm

Remember, SwiftKick, Sony unseated then-market leader RCA by using underpowered transistors in handeheld radios that, at first, underperformed RCA's desktop radios' sound quality. RCA, like Microsoft, had lots, lots more money and market power, but those virtues were eroded rapidly as RCA abandoned transistors to Sony's tiny, weak radios. RCA spent lots on R & D, but concluded that they 1) transistors had no place in RCA's high margin, vacuum tube desktop radios, which emphasized good volume and good sound; 2) RCA had no business case for selling low-margin transistor radios. You can read more about that history in my article here http://linux.sys-con.com/read/46891.htm?CFID=37723 &CFTOKEN=8D2FC61E-57CA-1091-4E26E06B45B1DB04

If you look only at what the Pepper Pad is today, you're not seeing its importance, IMHO.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[DingerX]

So, what you're saying is that the pepper pad deserved a potential 9 out of 10, but actually merits something more along a 3?

When considering a purchase, the future I care about is not what the next generation will be, but what this generation will be a couple years from now. And if I buy a pepper pad now, in a year that stunning two hours of battery life is going to be down to a "2-minute dash to find an outlet before the bloody thing dies".

These guys have some real problems. Yes, they've got a neat idea, and they could pull it off, but their volume is so low, the price is prohibitive for most of us.

For example, you praise its ability as a book reader. Well, shucks, backlight displays aren't great for that, and for the same price I could get me an iRex Iliad (Assuming they ever ship that): half the weight, not only a higher resolution screen, but e-Ink, 802.11g and USB2, and 20 hours of battery life.
Of course, that's primarily for reading texts. If you want something for videos, there's a better solution out there too. And Mp3 players are cheap, portable and have reasonable battery life.

Right now, the pepper pad is a nerd toy that deserves a niche for those who want a highly-portable platform to do any number of Linux hacks. It's not a mainstream consumer device by the simple reason that it's too expensive and too underpowered.


If I look only at what the Pepper Pad is today, it's because I'm considering a purchase. Linux fans may believe that the future belongs to them, but for most of us, belief alone is not enough.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[LordLucless]

Wrong. I am exactly the market for a device like this. I've been looking for a small tablet device to take notes with at school

And these people specifically designed it for uses that don't involve a lot of typing. This is not the device you're looking for. When I was commuting, I would have loved a device like this, except for two things. Price. $800 is way, way too expensive for a portable media player. And no DVD drive. I have no idea what the hell they're thinking not including a DVD drive on a media device.

I'm not saying this device is awesome and needs no changes, I'm saying the changes you outline aren't improving this device in the fields it's aiming at. Your changes might make it better, but it would turn it into a miniature computer rather than a media station. Now, a miniature computer might be a better product, but it's not what this product is trying to be.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know the basic purpose of this device is completely different but, if I was willing to get a portable linux platform to do all sorts of hacks and fiddle I'd be better off sticking with a GP2X game device, and hacking its game interface to be useful as a PDA system... just some crazy ideas...

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[mrchaotica]

And these people specifically designed it for uses that don't involve a lot of typing. This is not the device you're looking for. When I was commuting, I would have loved a device like this, except for two things. Price. $800 is way, way too expensive for a portable media player. And no DVD drive. I have no idea what the hell they're thinking not including a DVD drive on a media device.

And if they didn't design it for typing, why bother including a keyboard at all?

I agree with you about the price and DVD bit, though (if you assume it's a media player; otherwise the lack of DVD is good).

Your changes might make it better, but it would turn it into a miniature computer rather than a media station. Now, a miniature computer might be a better product, but it's not what this product is trying to be.

You realize that that's basically the same as saying "this thing is trying to be a crappy product," right?

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[idlake]

Nobody gives a stuff what OS it runs.

People writing vertical apps certainly do. And being one of the few devices running Linux in that form factor makes it quite attractive, in particular given the price.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[_Swank]

For those of us who don't like DRM, and do like open source, I wanted to talk about the Pepper Pad in comparison to Origami.

Ignoring it's other drawbacks, the fact that the Pepper Pad can't play DRMed music and the Origami can is a serious one. Whatever your feelings on DRMed music neither the Pepper Pad or the Origami would ever be creating that DRMed music, only play it. And if someone's got DRMed music the Pepper Pad is useless. You can try to argue that if no players played DRMed music then all music producers would put out music that contains no DRM, but I think then you've probably been riding the open source bandwagon a little too long. Instead they'd just not distribute it at all. Claiming, in the video in the review, that this (not playing DRM) is a feature is ridiculous.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[munpfazy]

And if they didn't design it for typing, why bother including a keyboard at all?

Probably because entering text any other way is infuriating at best, and there's always a need to enter some text.

Even if one only ever uses it as a web browser, it will still be necesisary to give it URLs by hand. Just trying to pick out "slashdot.org" with a schrollwheel letter chooser would be enough to drive me to violence.

Having spent much too much time trying to enter strings of text into test equipment with and without little, badly-shaped, hard to use querty keyboards, I've learned to love them. If you ask me, a keyboard of some kind is a must, even on a device where one only needs to enter a few dozen characters a year.

(That's not to say I'm defending their layout choice. As a compromise between PDA and laptop, this device fails to achieve the most basic requirements of either. Perhaps, once they've gone out of business and sold off their inventory to a tech salvage shop for $10 each, I'll buy a few. Could be fun to play with.)

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[Anonymous Coward]

IMHO, the Pepper Pad deserves a 9/10 because it is one small additional voice toward emphasizing that the "Network is the Computer", and the operating system is less relevant.

Worst justification for a product review score ever.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[uradu]

I'm not sure this device knows what market it targets. It seems to me it's shooting too closely towards the notebook end, rather than the highly-mobile-but-more-capable-than-a-PDA category. Both its capabilities and its price are way too high for what it aims to do. I laughed when I saw the $800 price point. Something like $300 would be more like it. Basically, a modern PDA like the iPAQ 4700 is pretty close to a webpad-type device, it just needs a bigger and higher-rez screen, a physical keyboard, and maybe a bit more memory. Make it about the size of 2.5 iPAQs side-by-side. I definitely think a hard drive does not belong into this class of device. In order to optimize battery life, which simply HAS to be on the order of a PDA's to make the device useful, you want to allocate as much of the power budget as possible to the main power hog: the screen. A large screen is what defines this device, so there's no way around it. A hard drive, OTOH, is a fairly unnecessary luxury which adds both weight and size and saps power. Since it's a stripped down device anyway, you certainly don't need 20 GB for app storage. That leaves media, and not every user will necessarily be interested in that application. I would primarily be interested in this as an around-the-house replacemenet of the notebook or PDA for web access. You could have it sitting on the kitchen counter or a coffee table to look up something or quickly catch up with the news (slashdot!), without having to pull out the heavy guns. If I want to watch a video, that requires more time than a couple of minutes anyway, so I might as well trek to the den and fire up the home theater. I'd get a massively larger picture and very much better sound, plus more comfortable seating. Why should everyone be forced to pay for the large storage requirements of a few that might be interested in videos? Include a CF/SD slot for those users, and they can buy their own large cards to store those videos.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[Sj0]

If you choose major purchases based on a single number, you deserve whatever you get.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[christian.einfeldt]

hi DingerX,

So, what you're saying is that the pepper pad deserved a potential 9 out of 10, but actually merits something more along a 3? Objection. Argumentative. Misstates testimony. ;-)

The Pepper Pad is something entirely new. It's in a product category all by itself. It's a bit rough, for the reasons that I outlined in my review. But for a new product, it's pretty cool. If people had refused to buy the first cell phones, saying, "oh, I'm going to wait until it is small enough to fit in my pocket," they would have waited, what, two decades? I went into great detail in my review to explain what I felt were the ups and the downs about the Pepper Pad. I liked holding the thing. I liked the touch pad. I liked watching it play video, knowing that it was open source under the hood. I liked to think about how it will affect the future of computing.

I don't know how much you use open source products. I use Windows for about one hour every three months. The rest of the time I'm on GNU/Linux of one flavor or another. I have become accustomed to the fact that 1) software is a work in progress; 2) people will release early and often; 3) the user is encouraged to give back, through bug testing and feedback. IMHO, the mere fact that the Pepper Pad was rough in some areas didn't mean that it sucked, or that it was a three out of ten. I felt that it was a good early effort that was fun to hold and to use, within the shortcomings that I listed in my review.

When considering a purchase, the future I care about is not what the next generation will be, but what this generation will be a couple years from now. And if I buy a pepper pad now, in a year that stunning two hours of battery life is going to be down to a "2-minute dash to find an outlet before the bloody thing dies".

Mad Penguin software and hardware reviews are typically 5x longer than what you get in most other magazines. We like to think that we give the reader the information to judge whether or not our final conclusions are meritorious or not. You felt that there was a disconnect between my detailed analysis of the product and my conclusion. Fine. But the point is that you certainly had the information there to reach your own conclusions. That makes me feel good. That's why we write long reviews. So many product reviews are merely glowing rehashing of the product features. We tend to give you the good, the bad, and the ugly about products. So I will remember your criticisms next time I write a review. But IMHO, there is no disconnect between my conclusion (9/10) and my analysis.

These guys have some real problems. Yes, they've got a neat idea,

Thank you, your honor, I have no further questions for this witness. ;-)

and they could pull it off,

I rest my case.

but their volume is so low, the price is prohibitive for most of us.

True, they have problems. But my interest in writing the review was not just a price-for-price comparison of products out there. To accomplish that, the review would have to have sort of a grid or table type of feel to it. I wanted to address what I felt where the big, exciting ideas that the Pepper Pad represents.

Also, when I write for Mad Penguin, I know that we have enough readers now that they will catch the mistakes in what I write. Mad Penguin is an open sourcey-type project that way. We invite comments and criticisms. Most publications due, of course. So maybe the difference with Mad Penguin is they way that we respond to criticism. Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow. I could never cover everything in an article. The article would be too long. And we want to leave some ground for our readers to cover. Mad Penguin is part of a conversation. It's not a lecture. We don't claim to be perfect. We hope to be informative and maybe even entertaining. At least Adam Doxtater is. I always laugh at hi

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[christian.einfeldt]

Hi Swank,

Ignoring it's other drawbacks, the fact that the Pepper Pad can't play DRMed music and the Origami can is a serious one. Whatever your feelings on DRMed music neither the Pepper Pad or the Origami would ever be creating that DRMed music, only play it. And if someone's got DRMed music the Pepper Pad is useless.

How big do you think DRM is, currently? There are multiple DRM schemas, and none of them command the market. I have actually stopped buying music that is DRM'd. I don't download music illegally. I just have decided that I will only buy music that is not DRM'd. As a result, I look for music that is either free as in beer, or that is distributed by sites that don't use DRM. IMHO, most of the content out there is still pre-DRM. So as of today, the Pepper Pad is relevant, and DRM is not a problem for many of the Pepper Pad's target customers.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[DingerX]

If people had refused to buy the first cell phones, saying, "oh, I'm going to wait until it is small enough to fit in my pocket," they would have waited, what, two decades?

Actually, yes. Most people did wait about two decades before buying cellphones.

Similarly, the Apple Newton was not a commercial success -- it took technology time to reach the level of the Palm for that to happen.

Like many others here, I had known about the Pepperpad's technical specifications beforehand. What I found disturbing about the review was the hyperbole: at one point you say that pressing a button on the text software is easier than turning a page, implying that it's better than a book. Of course, I don't plug my books into walls, nor do I strain my eyes to read them.

But the reason why I brought up the iRex (which probably will not be a success either, at least not in its current incarnation), mp3 players and the rest: there's a core problem with this design, and, for that matter, with Origami. It's a jack-of-all-trades and a master of none. You bring up video editing. What kind of video editing would you want to do on a device like this that couldn't better be done at a proper workstation? Wireless: it's got a 802.11b card. Obviously something that costs around 800 Euros can't have at least b/g.

And ultimately there's a philosophical and religious difference underlying the positions. As I see it, the position you express here, and to a lesser degree in the article, is permeated by a Tux-Millenarianism, and you're reading the pepper pad as part of a larger eschatological scheme of unseating the thousand-year reign of the Antichrist. Pepperpad -- well, I wouldn't mind one if I received it in the mail for free -- is not messiah.

Let me clarify that, using baseball.

The last time the Yankees won the World Series was October 2000. Windows XP was released on October 25, 2001. 2 days later, the Yankees played the Diamondbacks in the World series and lost.
The San Francisco Giants are known for Barry Bonds, a player who, if one believes reports, got upset with seeing others hit a bunch of home runs, so he took a lot of steroids, according to many violating the spirit of athletic competition.

So your analogy has four problems:
1) The Yankees haven't been performing well ever since Windows XP came out.
2) The Yankees may buy the best talent, but that alone doesn't guarantee them victory.
3) Microsoft is known noto for buying the best talent, but the second-best, and using its market position to impose mediocrity on the world.
4) Being a Giants fan in those conditions implies that the only way to beat Microsoft is to play their game, but cheat.

Now, had you picked the Oakland Athletics under the General Management of Billy Beane, you could have proposed a different model: We don't have the economic resources of the Yankees, but by careful selection of our teams, and aiming for specific goals, we can be competitive.

Right now, the brilliance of linux isn't that it's going to replace Windows on the desktop anytime soon. If anyone can afford a huge professional team to make a desktop computer with billions of potential configurations work, it's Microsoft. And signs are appearing that even they are now having trouble. Welcome to the myth of convergence:
1) the more complicated the system, the more likely it is to fail.
2) While convergence fans like to argue that , if their device performs tasks A, B, and C, then putting them in one device gives you: A*B*C, in fact the equation is more like (A+B+C)/(limitations of A+B+C).
So, yeah, Pepper or Origami, you can't type on it because it's got a lousy keyboard. 2 hours battery life makes watching video, listening to MP3 or doing much of a chore. Slow processor speed makes it the wrong choice for editing video. TFT screen does not make it a replacement

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[_Swank]

There are multiple DRM schemas and while none of them 'command the market', ALL are playable on an Origami device while NONE are playable on Pepper Pad. If you want to argue that that is not a problem for the Pepper Pad's target customers (i.e. Linux and open source diehards) that's fine. But it's not a feature (as claimed in your review video) and it severely limits the Pepper Pad's usefulness outside of that narrow market. All in all, not a great idea.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[Bastard of Subhumani]

I think all you've done is prove that you're not the target market for this device.

No, I think he's proved much more than that.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[christian.einfeldt]

Hi DingerX,

You made several good points that I would like to address.

Like many others here, I had known about the Pepperpad's technical specifications beforehand. What I found disturbing about the review was the hyperbole: at one point you say that pressing a button on the text software is easier than turning a page, implying that it's better than a book. Of course, I don't plug my books into walls, nor do I strain my eyes to read them.

I don't know if you have had an opportunity to handle a Pepper Pad. If you do have the opportunity to do so, you might see why I say that it is easier to read than a book. The problem I have with books is that they are a little bit awkward to handle, IMHO. I know that might sound strange, but it kind of bugs me that you need to apply pressure to keep the book open and on the current page. Also, reading is sometimes difficult if you happen to be in a place that has poor lighting, which is not a problem with the backlit Pepper Pad. I personally found that reading with the Pepper Pad was easier because it just sits in your lap or on top of your fingers, and changing the page was as easy as rolling the scroll ball. Books require you to shift the book in your hand while you are turning the page.

You really have to have the Pepper Pad in you hand to believe that it is easier to read the Pepper Pad than to read a book. We are so accustomed to books that it seems false and counter-intuitive to say that, but it's true, in my experience. Books have a very strong esthetic appeal, which adds to the heresy of saying that it might be more satisfying to read from a metallic object like the Pepper Pad, but it's true. It's long design means that it feels pretty stable in your lap.

But the reason why I brought up the iRex (which probably will not be a success either, at least not in its current incarnation), mp3 players and the rest: there's a core problem with this design, and, for that matter, with Origami. It's a jack-of-all-trades and a master of none. No, actually, that is one of the main points that I was trying to get at with my review. It doesn't try to be a cell phone. It doesn't try to be a PDA. It doesn't try to be a notebook. It focuses on entertainment.

You bring up video editing. What kind of video editing would you want to do on a device like this that couldn't better be done at a proper workstation?

You could use the Pepper Pad to edit small videos that are taken with phones and emailed around via phone and then downloaded to a computer; or small family videos. I'm talking about the kind of thing that you see on YouTube or Revver. You would use Eyespot to edit them while on line, and then send them back to your friends and family.

Wireless: it's got a 802.11b card. Obviously something that costs around 800 Euros can't have at least b/g.

+1 That's a problem. But for me, it wasn't a huge problem. It was something that you live with. And ultimately there's a philosophical and religious difference underlying the positions.

I have correctly been criticized for being too enthusiastic about open source. I have been using it since 2001, but I am still amazed and enthused by it to the point of being obnoxious, that's true. This stems from the fact that I personally have never been a wealthy person, and so I have had to really struggle to afford computers and software. But since I started using open source software, I have old computers coming out of my ears, and I actually give computers to middle school students at a school here in San Francisco. Sharing is just plain fun for me, and so sometimes I get carried away. Which is why I write for Mad Penguin. Excessiveness is the theme of that website. Heh.

As I see it, the position you express here, and to a lesser degree in the article, is permeated by a Tux-Millenarianism, and you're reading the pepper pad as part of a larger eschatological scheme of unseating the tho

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[christian.einfeldt]

hi Swank,

There are multiple DRM schemas and while none of them 'command the market', ALL are playable on an Origami device

No, actually, Apple's market-leading AAC DRM is not playable on Origami.

it severely limits the Pepper Pad's usefulness outside of that narrow market. All in all, not a great idea.

I understand your core argument: DRM is dominant on most commercially popular music, and without DRM, the Pepper Pad is locking itself out of that market. It's a serious argument, and one that Sun has been making WRT its DReaM open source DRM.

But IMHO, the mistake that you are making is in assessing the market. I don't think that DRM'd music is the majority IN MOST PEOPLE'S CURRENT COLLECTIONS. I think that most people still have a vast amount of pre-DRM music in their collections. Also, I think that sales of big label music are slowing, and I blame DRM in part for it. I think that consumers understand that DRM is bloat, and they are rejecting it and they are looking for non-DRM'd music on the Internet. I don't have any studies to exhibit to support my opinion, but that is my sense from reading tech media. I think that DRM is going to go away. I don't think that DRM has caught on. I think it has been resisted, and to the extent that it exists, it is fragmented, with Real, Microsoft, and Apple each offering their own DRM.

Plus, there is also the major problem of the analog loophole. I live in San Francisco, and I take the bus to work every day. The kids who sit (with me) on the back of the bus (where all the action is) are recording music OFF OF THE RADIO from speakers!!! The sound quality is really, really poor, but these kids don't care!! They don't want to spend money on music, or can't spend money on music, and they just record this music and email it to each other via their cell phones! I'm telling you, FTP-type file sharing is just the tip of the iceberg upon which the good ship RIAA will be impaled. There are so many ways to exploit the analog loophole, and the RIAA will NEVER close all of these analog loopholes.

BTW, I do want to emphasize that I do not condone copyright infringement. I think that it is awful the way that the RIAA has prosecuted people, but I also think that copyright licenses need to be respected. After all, the GPL is a copyright license. If an artist wants to reserve his / her full copyrights, fine. I won't buy their music, unless it is very very good, but neither will I violate the law by making illegal copies.

At the same time, however, I do understand the outrage at the licensing scheme. It just doesn't make sense to have to purchase as song on an LP record; then buy the same song again on a cassette tape; and then buy the same song again on CD; and then pay to download it to a different computers that are intended for non-infringing purposes. The license should run to the purchases, not with the medium.

But breaking the law is not the best form of citizen action in this particular case, IMHO. The better course of action is to try to find music that you like that is released under a more fair license. There is LOTS of it out there.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[DingerX]

Hi again Christian,

I'll let you have the last word on this one. I just wanted to thank you for clarifying your position.

Re:The PepperPad has been around for ages...

[_Swank]

No, actually, Apple's market-leading AAC DRM is not playable on Origami.

Actually, Origami runs Win XP Tablet edition. Meaning that it clearly runs iTunes and so Apple's DRM is playable on Origami.

Ask slashdot!

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone recommend for me some kind of device that is super small and lightweight that i can take packpacking, not too expensive. Ideally reads CF cards and has 512mb of ram so than I can gimp raw digital camera files and has 802.11(b|g).

You'd be my hero!

Paper Pad

[CtrlPhreak]

Anybody else read this as Paper Pad alternative to MS origami? Think of it, infinite battery life, lots of storage space, great handwritting recognition, light weight... come on someone start writing the jokes.

Re:Paper Pad

[commodoresloat]

don't forget pen input! plus you can make as much origami as you want...

Re:Paper Pad

[necro81]

Oh, I don't know, the handwriting recognition of a paper pad can sometimes be quite atrocious, especially when you are trying to pass information among people!

Re:Paper Pad

[zobier]

Not to mention the fact that you can actually make origami with a Paper Pad.

Coral Cache

[Anonymous Coward]

http://madpenguin.org.nyud.net:8080/cms/?m=show&id =6827&page=1
http://madpenguin.org.nyud.net:8080/cms/?m=show&id =6827&page=2
http://madpenguin.org.nyud.net:8080/cms/?m=show&id =6827&page=3
http://madpenguin.org.nyud.net:8080/cms/?m=show&id =6827&page=4
http://madpenguin.org.nyud.net:8080/cms/?m=show&id =6827&page=5

Works for me -HEX

"At this time, you cannot do this"...

[rdoherty]

I'll wait until they make a few improvements...

Currently, it only synchronizes with Windows (even though its marketed for the open source community)... being a software issue, I'm certain that they'll eventually port it to Linux.. The 2 hour battery life will need some improvement.. Their FAQ contains too many "At this time, you cannot do this".. and worst of all is that it may not support 3rd party applications...

I'll check in on the Pepper Pad in a few months to see how its improved...

Re:"At this time, you cannot do this"...

[rdoherty]

Seeing that they announced this product in 2004.. I guess I'll be waiting a couple more years for improvements...

Not sure

[Bombula]

I don't know why this thing is being compared to Origami - it's closer to the size of a Sony Viao. Which begs the question, why would you want something that size that doesn't hve all the functionality of a laptop?

Re:Not sure

[daviddennis]

That's exactly what I want to know.

To me, there are two basic form factors for a portable device: Something that can fit in my pocket, so it's easy to carry around, and something that I haul around in a case and leave in my car if I'm not going to use it during this part of my trip.

If I'm going to lug something around that's bigger than a Sidekick or an iPod, I'd might as well bring along my laptop, a 17" PowerBook. Then I have everything I need at my fingertips, and I'm not confined to passive reading.

What's the point of a dedicated reading device if you can do so much more with your laptop? You could get a 12" iBook if you want a small form factor and although that's significantly bigger than this, both need you to haul around a case or backpack.

I guess overall, I just don't see the point of this size device at all.

D

Re:Not sure

[smallfries]

You've hit the nail on the head - if it's too big to go in a pocket then it may as well be big enough to be useful. I don't think that problem is going to change until they actually get folding screens to market. Then something can be big enough to be useful, but fold into a portable shape.

So you run as root?

[otomo_1001]

How is this secure? Any mozilla/firefox url exploit makes this an easy target. Was interested until I hit that. Not really interested in recompiling their stupid design decision.

Open Source?

[somethinghollow]

With all the open source stuff going on with this device, it's odd that OGG and Jabber aren't on the list of supported media / protocols.

I'm interested...

[Null Nihils]

At first glance, I'm interested, and yet I can't help shake the feeling that there's something rather clumsy about these devices. There is definitely something appealing about the "bigger than a PDA, smaller than a laptop" form-factor, but as I've seen mentioned already this seems like a solution waiting for the problem. My 3 cents about what's holding these types of tech back:

1) Input
So far, it's hard to beat a keyboard for actually getting stuff done. Even when playing games, I tend to like having lots of little keys to use instead of a chunky controller with buttons, knobs and levers. Touch screens will do for a pointing device, although touching a screen is less continuous than holding a mouse, so mice still have their advantages. Still, touch screens are very useful for some things (market checkouts or anything with an incremental flow of finite options) and I'd like to see them become more commonplace, but you still can't use them for text entry.

2) Software and Flexibility
TFA also mentions that the "Pepper Pad" also lacks useful preloaded software (eg. a calendar). Hardware is useless without some intelligent, useable software to run on it. Also, the Pepper Pad would make a wonderful handheld media device if not for the price tag, which begs that the device be used as more than just a replacement for a portable DVD player. As per the "solution waiting for a problem" comment, people are yet to really think of what software you'd want specifically for a device like this, with these abilities, that you can carry with you.

3) Internet Availability, Battery Power (Wirelessness)
This last one is rather simple, in that an Internet-aware device is useful for accessing all that the Web and Net have to offer... provided you have access to the Internet. Wi-Fi is still far from obiquitious. And, if a device needs to suckle on a wall socket (or a car's 12V plug) after 45 mins of heavy use, its not really very "wireless" or "portable".

And there are my 3 cents.

Re:I'm interested...

[qdaku]

There is a market for these things that I am in. In the mining industry, the geologists and the engineers have the option between a PDA or some sort of rugged tablet pc to do data entry on in the field. It's so clumsy that most places just use paper instead and input it later. The geologists at the mine I used to work at had this weird in-between PDA and laptop sized (I can't remember the name) running some custom software that they used to log all the drillcore. It seemed to work very well and the engineers wanted to see if they could use them for underground inspections and basic 2D CAD.

Way too many buttons and controls.

[geoff lane]

Each button, wheel etc adds cost to the construction and increases the size of the box and reduces the size of the possible screen. Get rid of all the buttons and use a proper virtual keyboard on a touch sensitive screen. You can get rid of the scrool wheel as well. Does there really need to be speakers? Tiny speakers take space, power and almost always sound terrible.

OTOH, it's good to see more of this style of device. One day someone will get it right.

Re:Way too many buttons and controls.

[christian.einfeldt]

hi geoff lane,

Get rid of all the buttons and use a proper virtual keyboard on a touch sensitive screen.

You are right about the thumbpad keyboard. The keys are rubbery and gummy, and they kind of roll under your fingers. It's annoying. BUT. Consider the alternatives. Unfortunately, the alternatives are not good. You suggested a touch keyboard, but IMHO, that would be even worse than the rubbery, slippery thumbkeys. From having used the Pepper Pad to write much of TFA, I can tell you that you will need a light USB keyboard if you want to do any serious writing at all.

However, the Pepper Pad is not a notebook computer. A notebook computer can be a serious production machine. The Pepper Pad is a toy. It's fun to play with. The touch screen is really quite fun. So the Pepper Pad is really only for watching video, writing a few short emails or URLs or Google searches, and that's it.

The reason that I reviewed it at this time is because of all the hype around Origami. Do we really want people to get sucked into another Microsoft DRM'd device? (Origami). You can bet that Microsoft and its partners are going to spend billions to push the Origami. Origami is not on the market yet, but I will bet dollars to donuts that it is going to suck compared with the Pepper Pad. And one of the things that Origami is going to feature is ... a touch screen keyboard. Ick. Slow. Frustrating. You CAN'T touch type with a touch screen keypad, but I actually WAS able to touch type with the rubbery, annoying little Pepper Pad keys!! It wasn't fast or easy, but it was possible.

Re:Way too many buttons and controls.

[The Mysterious X]

So, basically, you are using the failings of Origami to justify the bad points of the pepper pad.

Re:Way too many buttons and controls.

[mrchaotica]

You are right about the thumbpad keyboard. The keys are rubbery and gummy, and they kind of roll under your fingers. It's annoying. BUT. Consider the alternatives. Unfortunately, the alternatives are not good.

The alternative is to turn it into a laptop (or actually a convertible tablet) with a real keyboard. The thing is certainly big enough for it!

However, the Pepper Pad is not a notebook computer. A notebook computer can be a serious production machine. The Pepper Pad is a toy. It's fun to play with. The touch screen is really quite fun. So the Pepper Pad is really only for watching video, writing a few short emails or URLs or Google searches, and that's it.

Considering the price and size, it should be a "serious production machine."

Re:Way too many buttons and controls.

[christian.einfeldt]

Hi Mysterious X,

So, basically, you are using the failings of Origami to justify the bad points of the pepper pad.

Microsoft and its partners will be spending millions of dollars to build, market and distribute Origami. Products need to be reviewed in context. Origami is getting a lot of press, and so I chose to compare the Pepper Pad to Origami.

I personally liked the Pepper Pad, and I explained why in great detail. I also detailed what I thought were the shortcomings of the Pepper Pad. Mad Penguin provides detailed reviews. We let the readers decide. My personal conclusion was that the downsides of the Pepper Pad were not a big deal in the context of what is (and is not) out there currently on the market.

Nokia 770 anyone?

[wertarbyte]

This Pepper pad looks nice, just like a bigger version of the Nokia 770, which runs Linux as well. Having an open plattform is a nice way to attract developers and establish a nice collection of applications. I hope we see more of those linux gadgets in the future.

Re:Nokia 770 anyone?

[anagama]

Yeah, and maybe they'll get lucky and someone will donate the necessary time and effort needed to get it to sync to linux boxes instead of it's current windows only capability. Seems to me that they aren't really interested in linux for anything except as a way to cut costs.

Re:Nokia 770 anyone?

[christian.einfeldt]

Hi wertarbyte,

Having an open plattform a nice way to attract developers and establish a nice collection of applications.

The Pepper Pad is an open platform. It is eminently hackable. There is also a forum. And there is also a command line. Please search TFA for "forum". The first thing that they probably need is help to make the thing NOT run in root.

Re:Nokia 770 anyone?

[wertarbyte]

And where did I deny that? Even the summary says that.

Note taking small device

[JRGhaddar]

if you want a small computing device and want to take a note or two this might come in handy.

Its a pretty cool gadget. Unfortunately Windows Tablet is your only OS option, but its only a matter of time till someone makes linux work on one of these things. No need for a keyboard since it has handwriting/speech recognition. You could load up a bunch of music and video on it (60 gb hard drive) and take your notes by hand... the pepper pad is cool, but I agree I need more functionality on my mobile device, and my LS800 does everything that the pepper pad can do and more since its a full functioning pc...it just doesn't run linux...yet..firefox and thunderbird work great on it though.

Errata

[mrchaotica]

I hate to reply to myself, but I made a mistake or two on that list:

I meant Fujitsu P1510D, not T4020 -- the T series is the big, heavy one.

Also, I forgot to mention that I'm also considering the iRex iLiad, which is an e-ink ebook reader (but has the right specifications to be a PDA with a nice big screen). At the moment, the finalists in my decision are it and the X41 (but I'm waiting to see if anything better comes out this summer, since I don't need it until school in the fall).

Re:Errata

[ladoga]

At the moment, the finalists in my decision are it and the X41

I have Thinkpad X41 and im very fond of it.

I pretty much carry it with me everywhere i go - 1.25 kg isn't too heavy for my taste and it nicely fits in my bag - so there's no reason not to. Only things i don't like about it are short battery life (about 2h) with standard 4-cell battery and the fact that i was forced to buy a windows licence with it (included in the price). The first thing i did was erase the HD and install debian on it. I have no regrets buying it, but i think i have to get that 8-cell battery soon.

Re:Errata

[mrchaotica]

How's Debian's handwriting recognition (and tablet support in general) working out for you?

Obligatory PocketMod link

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.pocketmod.com

Re:Obligatory PocketMod link

[CtrlPhreak]

I read this and started to laugh... until I actually loaded up the flash thing and messed with it a little, this is awesome!

Pepper apparently not up to Origami performance.

[__aatgod8309]

I started out reading with a vague interest, but it appears that this is an inferior product to the Origami. The deal-breaker for this would have to be the 2-hour battery life. (And the lack of data-entry methods didn't help it any) But I can't afford this or the Origami, so the whole thing is kind of academic. Why can't someone just come out with a bigger-screen pda, and be done with it?

Re:Pepper apparently not up to Origami performance

[mrchaotica]

Why can't someone just come out with a bigger-screen pda, and be done with it?

Aye, that's the question, isn't it? It seems that no company thinks "just a big PDA" would sell (but they're wrong), so they all try to add some kind of "twist" to it (like the Pepper Pad being for multimedia).

That said, the closest I've found to "just a big PDA" is this. Its "twist" is that it has a grayscale e-ink display ('cause it's supposed to be an ebook reader), but aside from that it is exactly a big PDA.

Completely useless

[Mr. Freeman]

So, if you want something that you can actually type on and get work done with, you shouldn't buy this.

If you want something that you can take anywhere, jot down a couple of notes, keep track of a calendar, etc. You also shouldn't buy this.

How many people are going to buy this thing just to watch movies? I know that I wouldn't want to spend this much money on something with only one function. And most of my routine web browsing necessitates a lot of typing (slashdot, forums, etc.)

No 'VGA' output

[Linker3000]

One thing I am regularly being asked about by business users is a device that can output PowerPoint presentations to a projector, but with the unit being smaller than a laptop and bigger than a PDA - the users want something low-cost (around £300-£400 max), but with the business functionality they need: ie: ability to check and send mail, Web browse (we use SugarCRM, a Web-based CRM package), do some simple word processing and, of course, display PowerPoints. It doesn't need to be a full PC, but needs to fit the requirements.

The ideal unit size would be 1/2 laptop (ie: A5 paper size footprint) - something like the good old HP Jornada 820.

The sticking point is the usual compromise between size, cost and functionality - miniature laptops will do but come in at around £800-1300+, other 'specialist' devices (some of the Psion range) are being phased out and then it's back to PDAs - we did once use an iPAQ 3970 with CF jacket and a VGA out card but the PowerPoint functionality wasn't too hot and you end up carrying round a separate keyboard if you want to to any level of WP beyond quick notes.

The Pepper Pad isn't a working solution from the specs (no VGA output - only composite (of which I am wary when it comes to projector interfacing due to degraded image quality), but it has spurred me to poll the /. collective's wisdom to see whether there is anything out there worth considering?

I did have a quick loop at the PSP (you can store PPTs as a series of linked JPEGs), but the proposed keyboard attachment seems to have been iced and I cannot see any form of external video interface.

Anything spring to mind guys?

Thanks

PS: 'Guys' is taken to be non-gender specific as I understand some of the /. crowd are (shock!) not male!

Re:No 'VGA' output

[Tarwn]

Sounds like you want an OQO...or maybe an OQO on clearance sale :P

Re:No 'VGA' output

[Anonymous Coward]

I suggest a Sony Vaio PGC U1 or U3. 7-inch laptop, VGA out. Processor is a little bit wimpy (900 Mhz Crusoe) but if your powerpoint isn't laden with effects or high-res video you're good to go. It's Japanese but the keyboard still has all the regular letters on it.
Not being made any more, but second hand ones fit your price range.
Older Panasonic R-series laptops are also good, though a little bigger.

Sure, I'm buying one tomorrow!!

[supertsaar]

...you can not only switch easily frojm one application to another, but you can also cut and paste content from, say, Writely's word processing tool to the Pepper Pad Journal and back again....

Wow, that is übercool...:P

...You are a GNU/Linux gadget lover. Just think, you get to rub your Mac friends' noses in the fact that a Linux device was first to have a touch screen,....

Never heard of the Newton I suppose...

Re:Sure, I'm buying one tomorrow!!

[h2d2]

Newton ran on the Mac platform, I never knew that one...

Cute little toys

[billcopc]

I'd actually like one of these for just goofing around, keep it beside the couch for IMDB lookups and queuing tunes on the jukebox. I still think it's kind of dumb to have those tiny keyboards with what looks like rubber buttons. I think I'd rather use an on-screen keyboard with one hand, or even a stylus. I used to be a speed freak with the on-screen keyboard on my old Palmpilot :)

"cable with the large USB ports"

[TeknoHog]

The Pepper Pad doesn't come with a cable for syncing to your Windows PC. That is potentiality a problem, because both the Pepper Pad and your PC will have the same USB ports and so you will need a cable with the large USB ports on both ends, which I have never seen in a store.

How ignorant can you get and still be able to post these reviews? USB doesn't do host to host, which is why these cables don't exist. However, there are USB to USB networking dongles with some buffer memory, which both ends see as a network device.

Re:"cable with the large USB ports"

[biglig2]

Also, from tha annotations to the diagrams, the USB port is 1.1, so good luck with downloading a movie to the device.

Re:"cable with the large USB ports"

[dbIII]

doesn't do host to host, which is why these cables don't exist

In a way they do - only it's called firewire.

The Mac to Mac networking via firewire cable is one of the things that has impressed me with that platform for years. I'm surpised that almost the most up to date similar item with a PC is the venerable and slow parallel port laplink cable.

Re:"cable with the large USB ports"

[ben there...]

What's wrong with Cat-5 crossover cable? Or WiFi?

There's no USB alternative because it's completely unnecessary.

Re:"cable with the large USB ports"

[brufleth]

PC to PC networking over firewire works fine in XP. I used it to do some massive data transfers very quickly when I first got a new laptop several years back.

Heh not yet there...

[beoswulf]

I don't know. I'm not too excited about this or the Origami.
Handheld systems still fail to meet the most basic expectations or needs of the power PC user and that's the market these devices need to capture first.

I've owned PDAs for years and quite fond of them despite everything bad for some important reasons. One, they are really tiny, pocket sized tiny. Two, using a PDA makes me feel as if I'm in a small "lilliputian" world. That's where all the applications and features are specially made for us tiny PPC people and our tiny universe's different set of physics and natural laws.

On the other hand, what about carrying around a woefully underpowered handheld "desktop" with a full installion of the same XP or Linux distro I have on my desktop? Well that just makes me feel like a eunch. Everytime I want to use a cool, maybe resource hungry app that I have on my desktop I'll be reminded how I'm castrated by these "lite" system specs. Forever forced to live in the real world but forever knowing I'm missing out.

Re:Heh not yet there...

[dbIII]

woefully underpowered handheld "desktop" with a full installion of the same XP or Linux distro

As it has been for years, with decent connectivity the web server can do the hard work or you can run the app on the server and display it with X windows. The little thin client on the floor behind me runs X windows on Windows CE and has less processing power than the average handheld video game - so it could even be a low end Microsoft OS on your handheld giving you access to those resource hungry apps.

There's even X windows running on a Nintendo DS now.

Re:Heh not yet there...

[beoswulf]

True, with good connectivity. But the origami teaser showed peopled not tied down to any hotspots. They were driving around, in stairwells, airplanes, the beach.... Right now that type of connectivity is not available in enough places for a tempting price. For that type of money one could have a serf lug around a desktop replacement laptop and let you use his back as a desktop...

Why this won't catch on

[annoyed by procedure]

"unless you are willing to get under the hood (which you can do with the Pepper Pad!)" This very sentence is a perfect example of why the pepper pad is doomed. If it's attracting the market of people who "exclamation point" the idea of getting under the hood--the market of slashdotters--then it's clearly going to miss the much larger market of people who buy lots of things to keep products afloat. People don't want to get under the hood. Correction: except for you and me and 58 other posters to this thread, people don't want to get under the hood. If anyone is stupid enough to put "getting under the hood" as a marketing point, he's going to have about 60 sales. That's the whole Linux thing--why everyone but the devotees takes it as a given that Linux is going nowhere until it truly gets beyond it's "getting under the hood" fascination. I run a web site advising how to set up a Palm as a Japanese dictionary--it's cheaper, more powerful, more portable, and in every way better than the alternative single purpose electronic dictionaries (http://www.peterrivard.com/Pages/SuperDictionary. html. It's even easier to use than EDs. But most of the people who look into it are afraid of the Palm OS. My analog alarm clock has an interface more complicated than Palm OS! But because of who the early adopters naturally tended to be, PDAs in general, like Linux, have a geek-chic that makes non-techies intimidated and afraid to even try to use them. Raving about "getting under the hood" is the perfect way to keep them scared of this new platform, too. We have to be careful about mistaking what excites us as enthusiasts with what actually excites the larger public enough to buy the machine and keep it alive.

Re:Why this won't catch on

[Anonymous Coward]

PalmOS complicated? ROFL!!!. If PalmOS is complicated, WinMob (Windows Mobile) is nuclear physics.

Newtons, all of 'em.

[SoupIsGood Food]

The Pepper Pad is indeed an alternative to the Origami platform, and one that burdens you with, perhaps, the single worst keyboard ever to disgrace a PDA. I mean, the "thumboard" makes the Treo look speedy.

But that's besides the point. The point is, Origami looks suspiciously like a Newton. It's spawned some fat and ugly Newton-wanna-be's, true, but they're Newtons... too big to fit into the pocket, but doesn't have a clamshell keyboard to make it a subnotebook.

I find it endlessly entertaining that Microsoft's last gasp at saving their Windows Tablet platform is by aping the dead and defunct Newton form factor, at roughly the same price-point of the old Newton. The irony is especially delicious when you realize that the Newton tanked largely because of the form factor... Palm came along with something pocketable, and kicked Apple's ass up and down the store aisles.

I wish Microsoft had aped a more useful form factor, like the Psion 5mx. Pocketable, but with a touch-typable QWERTY keyboard and an expansion card slot. Then I'd have somwething worth putting Ubuntu on.

Re:Newtons, all of 'em.

[RiffRafff]

The point is, Origami looks suspiciously like a Newton.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Everyone who sees my Newton 2100 (which I still use on a daily basis) is impressed by one particular thing: its screen real estate. Yeah, it's bigger than a Palm Pilot, but it also does more. Plus, you don't have to learn some new inane way of writing; you just write (or print). That's the second thing that impresses...writing in English (and yes, we've all heard the Trudeau jokes, but the HWR on the 2000 and 2100 was simply superb) anywhere on the screen instead of writing hieroglyphs on top of each other in one spot and numbers in another until the touch membrane is deformed.

This Pepper Pad needs its bright color screen combined with the Newton's ease-of-input and battery life. Then then they'd have a winner.

"Open Alternative" for Microsoft... with MS DRM

[cyba]

From TFA:

Pepper Pad Software:
OS Kernel 2.6.13 (preemptive), UBOOT
(...)
DRM* WMDRM10
(...)
*Coming Soon

Great "alternative" indeed!

That's nice, but give me an ARM powered laptop...

[Sam Haine '95]

If somebody made an ARM powered laptop with solid state storage then I'd be very happy. No moving parts, silent, incredible battery life.

Why I don't find this interesting

[Jugalator]

bigger and more powerful than a PDA, but smaller and less optimized for traditional desktop PC tasks than a notebook computer or a desktop PC.

Well, the summary pretty much nailed why I won't buy one. It's neither as small as necessary to carry it conveniently, or powerful enough to compare with a laptop.

How 'bout the "Hanlin V2" if it actually shows up?

[jyoull]

800 bucks for the featured item? That seems pretty steep for such a limited device when Dell is shipping full-featured notebooks for $500 and up...

This looked interesting...
V2 eBook Reader

SRP $349, runs Linux, aimed at EU and US markets... they're hooked up with E-Ink and have China-scale overhead, so maybe $349 SRP will translate to $200-$250 street price if they actually release this... looks like more than the usual vaporware.

specs

I wish the E-Ink prototype kit didn't cost $3,000 or I'd just build my own reader. I really want a cheap reader on the cost scale of a disposable mp3 player so I don't have to worry constantly about losing or trashing it. I wouldn't set out to lose or trash it, but I'd replace a $150 reader pretty fast, and a $800 reader pretty much not at all.

What is this small Linux notebook you speak of?

[Anonymous Coward]

All I see is

1. Buy a small Windows Notebook
2. Pay the per-processor license to Microsoft
3. ???
4. Microsoft profits and uses the profit to strangle Linux
5. Install Linux on the small notebook and laugh on into the night

How is this helping? Well, it's helping Microsoft. Pepper, Nokia 770, and Zaurus are the only actual Linux alternatives out there and none is a small notebook. Libretto, Fujitsu, Sony, these are all paying a small fee to Microsoft for every Linux notebook.

DRM Coming Soon!

[nurb432]

No thanks. Looked cute until i got to that point in its specs.

Didnt see a price either other then 'subject to change'.. Change from what?

Washington Post says M$ Handwriting Blows

[twitter]

This Washington Post review blows up most of your hopes.

Supposedly the handwriting recognition of Windows Mobile is very good.

Nope, the note taking application lets you scribble onto a page. It looks neat, but it does not do OCR very well. This is what I've come to expect from M$ character recognition, which never works when I try it.

I expect the free software world to My handspring spoiled me but Xstroke, a full screen graffiti system, works about as well. A combination of Xstroke and graphics program to put writting and drawings where you put the pen down would be killer.

The WP article described note taking with M$ this way:

In Microsoft's Windows Journal note-taking program, you can write anywhere on the screen -- but your handwriting isn't converted to text automatically, making these files impractical to share with other people. You're also liable to scramble your input every time you brush the screen with the knuckles of your stylus-wielding hand.

In other words, it sucks.

Re:Washington Post says M$ Handwriting Blows

[YU Nicks NE Way]

Windows Journal has nothing to do with Windows Mobile.

Re:Washington Post says M$ Handwriting Blows

[EvanED]

The quote from the WP article you give doesn't say anything at all about the OCR ability of the system -- it just says it doesn't do OCR by default. (I would argue that this is correct behavior, though there should maybe be an option to turn auto OCR on or off.) In fact, I don't see anything in the review at all that talks about the accuracy of the OCR. The most negative bit related to input is "you can write letters and numbers into an input palette that occupies as much real estate as the first keyboard but, in my experience, worked slower." The second sentence in the quote is mostly a criticism of the device, not the software, and would be fixed if you used something like a Wacom tablet rather than a touch sensitive screen.

Anyway, I can say from my own experience that the handwriting works quite well with just a little practice. I've used a PDA with Windows Mobile 2K3 for about 5 minutes and it was usually successful in figuring out what I wrote. You don't have to learn a grafitti-like system.

Though I will admit that I was thinking of a specific review that was raving about the handwriting analysis (and that it even could OCR actual cursive writing with good accuracy) but that's not Windows Mobile, it was something for a tablet PC. I don't remember if it was XP Tablet Edition or a prerelease of Vista.

actually, it's a good design

[idlake]

Actually, the thumb keyboard design on that device looks excellent: it's easy to learn for novices, familiar to texters, fits the device and the way it's held, and is probably quite efficient. If they didn't screw up on some detail, it should be at least as good as a chorded keyboard for most people, and it's going to be much better than pen input, on-screen tapping, or "drawer" style keyboards.

The PepperPad Keyboard.

[twitter]

Second, it's got a strange keyboard that you probably can't touch-type on.

You think that people won't buy the Blackberry because it has a "strange" thumb operated keyboard? Sorry, I've talked to lawyers that love them.

Re:The PepperPad Keyboard.

[mrchaotica]

The difference is that Blackberries are tiny, which is the only excuse for having a thumb-keyboard. This thing is big enough to be a laptop and have a real, touch-type-able one, which means it has no excuse.

Linux is why it works.

[twitter]

I'll tell you the real reason why nobody wants the damn thing: it's too flat-out weird. First of all, it runs Linux (no flames please; everyone should be able to admit that most people don't use Linux). ... And finally, it's slow. I don't care what kind of IPC it has; 624 MHz just isn't fast enough for something big enough to be a real computer.

Your reasoning is less than convincing. It's hard to determine the market reaction to a device that's just become available, so I'm not convinced that "nobody wants the damn thing". Did you throw a chair when you said that? Moreover, Linux will make it work better than you expect. Linux performs better and has better handwriting recognition than M$ does.

600 MHz is more than enough to run media. I know it because my old laptop was a 233 MHz P2. It could play music with JuK or Noatun without skipping while word processing and web browsing and was able to play full length movies like Star Wreck full screen without a problem. Even if the Xscale is skimpy to save power, the PeperPad should do just fine.

I've addressed your strange keypad objection here and talked about handwriting recognition here.

Now, count to ten and take a few deep breaths so you can calm down. A new device is nothing to get angry about, unless you work for M$ and see the new devices as cheaper and better than your last attempt to revive the tablet PC bomb.

I think it's overpriced, but that's the way new devices are generally introduced. Many cheaper and more powerful devices will be made and eventually you will find them selling for $15 in the supermarket check out line. At that price, of course, it will be running free software. Cheers!

Re:Linux is why it works.

[mrchaotica]

Your reasoning is less than convincing. It's hard to determine the market reaction to a device that's just become available

This thing has been available for over a year.

Moreover, Linux will make it work better than you expect. Linux performs better and has better handwriting recognition than M$ does.

I know that; I think Linux is great. But everyone else does not know it, and everyone else is who it would have to appeal to if they want to sell more than one.

For what it's worth, if I end up getting a Tablet PC I'm going to run Linux on it anyway.

600 MHz is more than enough to run media.

Then the thing should be cheaper, because 600 MHz is a bad value for the price no matter what it's "supposed" to be for.

Now, count to ten and take a few deep breaths so you can calm down. A new device is nothing to get angry about...

You don't know how long and hard I've been looking for what I need, without success, and how frustrating it is to continue to find things that would be great if only I could tweak one little aspect of them.

Re:Linux is why it works.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's hard to determine the market reaction to a device that's just become available [...] Did you throw a chair when you said that? Moreover, Linux will make it work better than you expect. Linux performs better and has better handwriting recognition than M$ does. A new device is nothing to get angry about, unless you work for M$

1. The pad has been out for a year.
2. You are full of shit

No USB2/DVD ?

[Anonymous Coward]

How could that be for data consumption ?

At least USB2 and ability to connect external DVD drive should be there.

Also Internet in 800x600 does not look good ... same for widescreen movies ..

PCs with firewire do this exactly the same

[blorg]

Plug the two together with a firewire connection and you've immediately got a 400mbs TCP/IP network connection. This functionality is built in to XP, and Sony had support for it on their Vaios since at least 2000 (my first Vaio).

SD card VGA out for Palm

[gatzke]

For taking your ppt slides and easily presenting, you could use a palm and a SD adapter.

I have a Treo 650 that can edit ppt slides as well, so you could make minor changes before the presentation and dump it out on your SD card.

I have not tried the SD VGA for my Treo, but I assume it would work.

But...

[The Spoonman]

...does it run Windows? Then it would be useful. Once again, the open source community pats itself on the back while completely missing the point of Origami. You guys really just don't get modern technology, do you?

Can I please just get a Notepad....

[foniksonik]

When will someone come out with a Tablet that is a tablet.... you know, something I can jot down notes on, check a few references with and get a signature on a form when it's needed.

I don't want a subnotebook with a touch sensitive screen, integrated keyboard, 5 different input ports, Bose quality speakers and a DVD player.... it's a tablet, if I wanted all that I would get a subnotebook.

Give me a good touch sensitive screen, about 9 x 12 with a handle and a stylus and no more than 1/4 in. 'frame' so the whole thing should be 12 x 12. Let the orientation be switchable, from landscape to portrait and 180 degrees for lefties....

Provide a virtual keyboard for when I do need to type something.... use it in the portrait oriantation with the keyboard at bottom. Most of all though, give me good handwriting recognition and I'll use that instead.... cause I shouldn't be doing any real typing on a TABLET.

I should be taking notes about what I will type when I get back to my office where there's a desk, large screen and full size keyboard waiting for me!

So give me some speech to text ability as well, since that would make even more sense than writing notes... with a bluetooth headphone/mic.

Anyways, all of these multi-purpose all in one PCs that happen to be in a Tablet form factor just plain suck, mostly because they aren't really filling a niche... there almost filling the same niche as a laptop but failing to do so.. and they are integrating the same problematic limitations while they fail to provide any additional usefulness or convenience.

Re:Can I please just get a Notepad....

[Anonymous Coward]

By your comment, you may not be really aware of what is out there in the tablet world. Personally, I love my HP tc4200 (a convertible). You might want to check out either a Motion tablet or something by Electrovaya, since by your comment you seem to prefer a slate device. Maybe a Sahara?

Handwriting recognition in XP Tablet Edition 2005 is excellent. It makes almost no mistakes when I write.

Re:That's nice, but give me an ARM powered laptop.

[Russ Nelson]

Nokia 770. 800x480 screen. Grab a bluetooth keyboard and mouse, and you're all set. (sort-of)

No PDF?

[Cerebus]

No sale.

(Still waiting on my iLiad.)

No thanks

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd kill for something like this. $800 though? No thanks. I'll find a really small laptop for less and have the advantages of a non-embedded device (standard software and hardware.) If you're going to spend that much, get something like those IBM/Lenovo ThinkPads or whatever they are called where the screen turns all the way around and sits flat so you can have something that actually is a lot like this PepperPad device, just a little bigger and thicker (and more fully featured...)

What's with the stupid keys though? I've seen devices where a full proper keyboard pulls out of the bottom. Now that's something they should think about. Their current input setup basically means you'll be using a stylus for text entry 99% of the time because it would be easier to use an onscreen keyboard than those keys. I can punch in letters on my PDA's little screen with the stylus and onscreen keyboard faster than I can use little buttons sticking out like those in such inconvenient positions. The problem is, everyone automatically thinks of such devices as being so specialized you'll never need a keyboard for input, then you end up finding a situation where you have to spend a good hour writing up some text for stuff and you wish there were a better way.

All I can say is if you want to compete with Microsoft, you have to make a really good product at a really good price, because Microsoft has serious advantages in that they are so well known that they can get away with screwing people and still outsell the competition at a lot of things.

Re:No thanks

[GodSpiral]

The design is to let you type with 2 thumbs. Its probably inputable while walking too.
I like this design a lot. good subway, bathroom, and meeting computer. Not so great if you just want something to take from office to home to hotel, or need something more pocketable and forgettable.

LOLOLOL, M$

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot has the best comedians. Changing the thread title and using "M$" there? Hilarious. Just hilarious. Thanks for the chuckle.

So how is this any better than the Nokia 770?

[mingrassia]

So how is this any better than the Nokia 770?

I mean the 770 already has an active community behind it and an open development environment that you can dig right into.

Yes, the 770 is a bit underpowered but the form factor looks MUCH better than the Pepper Pad. Plus I can go to the store and get one NOW.

Re:So how is this any better than the Nokia 770?

[christian.einfeldt]

hi mingrassia,

So how is this any better than the Nokia 770?

I hate to put down any product that runs Linux, but it's my understanding that the 770 bogs down with multiple websites open. Also, the screen size is really to small for comfy viewing. That is why the Pepper Pad is the size that it is.

I've never used a 770, so I have no direct experience. It's just what I have heard.

Re:How 'bout the "Hanlin V2" if it actually shows

[PCM2]

Have you looked at the Nokia 770? With the third-party, open source FBreader software it makes a pretty fine e-book reader -- the best I've seen so far, in fact. I've already read 2-3,000 pages on mine. I just saw it on sale for $300 at CompUSA yesterday. One drawback is that it's a traditional LCD, so reading while lying in the sun is almost impossible.

Re:How 'bout the "Hanlin V2" if it actually shows

[jyoull]

** happy dance **

wait wait wait... europe.nokia.com? why do they get all the good stuff? am i "allowed" to have one of these in the US? (If not i guess I could move)

Yeah, that's very nearly it. I may settle for this despite the propietary os. 3 hours isn't quite enough battery life, but yeah, the Nokia 770 looks like it would do "enough" to get me by... thanks for the tip.

Nokia has apparently created and (for the moment) supports maemo.org, a developer site for the developer's kit that ONLY supports at this time, this single device.. it'd suck to be orphaned at some future date. The developer's program is "closed" but the code and stuff are still there, and the updates. I'm confused.

And the 2006 OS update is going to cost money. that sucks.

In the long run, e-Ink displays are essential... miniscule power consumption, negligible weight, excellent contrast... what's not to like?

I'm inferring that the e-ink "paper" must still be pretty expensive given the price points of all the announced reader products, not counting the Hanlin I originally mentioned (not shipping yet so all bets are off 'til it's in a box and available for purchase).

It's not a Newton, unfortunately.

[Static]

I use my (elderly) Newton as an electronic notepad. Funnily enough, it excels at that. And the external keyboard isn't a big inconvenience. Unfortuantely, my Newton is slowly dying.

I looked at the PepperPad when I was thinking of upgrading. I wasn't impressed. What I want is for Apple to resurrect the Newton, upgrade the handwriting recognition, put a CF or SD slot in it, Bluetooth, USB and stereo audio. Colour would be nice, but it doesn't need it. A general upgrade of all the basic apps would also be nice. Form factor suits me well: no bigger and no smaller, please. A compact keyboard in place of the lid would be great.

Nothing I've seen comes close to any of this. The two biggest problems is that the devices are smaller and manufacturers try to cram in too much functionality.

I don't carry my Newton everywhere. I already have a good mobile phone. Neither device I use nor want to use for portable music. I'm sure Apple is capable of making their own market for the Newton. It doesn't need to compete with the iPod or with existing PDAs. Pity Steve Jobs hates it.

Re:How 'bout the "Hanlin V2" if it actually shows

[PCM2]

Proprietary OS? It runs Linux. You install software with .deb packages.

Where did you hear that the 2006 OS will cost money?

Re:That's nice, but give me an ARM powered laptop.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, Apple eMate? That's an ARM based solid-state laptop.

What? Not powerful enough? But it does have an 8 hour battery life. What? You want a colour screen, too? You don't need that.

-rdm

Re:How 'bout the "Hanlin V2" if it actually shows

[jyoull]

my bad on "proprietary OS". I thought i'd edited that out.

OS update costing money:
1) they distinguish between "Software Update" and "Operating System Upgrade," a sign of potential trouble if ever there was one
2) This FAQ which is almost impossible to find without stumbling into... and the fact that they've raised the idea of "price" in the make-believe question in the FAQ

4. What is the cost of upgrading to the Internet Tablet 2006 software edition?
Nokia will publish the distribution details later this year. The cost will depend on the distribution method of the software package.

Ah yes, that I understand.

[twitter]

I think Linux is great. But everyone else does not know it, and everyone else is who it would have to appeal to if they want to sell more than one.

People are not going to care what's running it any more than they care what kind of software runs their cameras or automobiles. It just has to work to get a good reputation. With M$ spending big bucks to push the concept, people will buy the Samsung "knock off" which sells for $400 less than the Origami as long as Origami's dismal reviews don't poison the entire class of device.

You don't know how long and hard I've been looking for what I need, without success, and how frustrating it is to continue to find things that would be great if only I could tweak one little aspect of them.

OK, I understand that. Thanks to the most expensive and silly portable music player in the world, I know that TrekStor does ogg and mp3. Thanks to Rockbox, my wife's Iriver will work much better. I've been waiting for that a long time. Sooner or later, cool thing come because the turds can't win forever.

There will be more of these pads and they will get cheaper and more varied.

Re:Ah yes, that I understand.

[Anonymous Coward]

Origami's dismal reviews don't poison the entire class of device.

ROFL. Why don't you grow up already?

Re:Input - FTIR!

[the_digitalmouse]

i'm surprised no-one mentions http://mrl.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/ (Bi-manual, multi-point, and multi-user interactions on a graphical interaction surface) - the demo video shows an on-screen keyboard that you type directly on with your fingers. and as a replacement for the mouse, i find it far more practical. with such an input method, you could expand the pepperpad#s screen real-estate a bit more. slap USB 2.0 on it, improve the battery life, and i think they might have a winner.

Not an alternative

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

The whole point of the UMPC devices (Origami) is that they run standard x86 software. You can install Office/Outlook, run Linux if you want (and get to choose your distro), use it as a development system - whatever.

The Pepper Pad has a 624MHz Intel PXA270. That's the same CPU as Dell's Axim x50v - powerful for a PDA, but underpowered for an internet-connected PC (PXA270 @ 624MHz is approx. equiv. to a Pentium-M at 300MHz).

The Pepper Pad is more along the lines of Nokia's internet tablet. It may be useful, but it's far more limited than the UMPC.

Ah, OSS

[Anonymous Coward]

Always copying, never innovating. Don't you stupid shits ever get tired of eating Microsoft's dust? I mean, you've been eating it for over 20 years now ;)

Re:How 'bout the "Hanlin V2" if it actually shows

[Arimus]

I have a suspicion that the cost will be free for internet download and a few dollars/euros/pounds/whatever for a CD with cost dependant on where you live etc.

Re:Input - FTIR!

[jdbartlett]

Fantastic, thanks for the link! Are these still in research, or are there any available for commercial use? Not sure about its use as a keyboard (I navigate my keyboard mostly by feel; I don't think I could ever do that where the keyboard is integrated into the display), but it would be great in a purpose-built interface. The only other scene in the movie that made me think "hmm, that could be annoying" was its use in the Google Maps-like app. That being said, some gestures would be handy in Google Maps - especially when it comes to aligning angle.

A fanboy this way walks

[JamesGecko]

You are a GNU/Linux gadget lover. Just think, you get to rub your Mac friends' noses in the fact that a Linux device was first to have a touch screen....

Apple Newton, anyone?

Re:A fanboy this way walks

[christian.einfeldt]

Hi JamesGecko,

You are a GNU/Linux gadget lover. Just think, you get to rub your Mac friends' noses in the fact that a Linux device was first to have a touch screen....

Apple Newton, anyone?

The Newton didn't sell well and underperforms for today's uses. But you and many others have correctly pointed out the error in my article. The Newton was so long ago, and so far out of circulation that I omitted it as irrelevant. Maybe it is still relevant. Probably not. But you're correct. My statement was historically inaccurate.

And yet I can't help but think that the Newton was such a bomb that it almost deserves to be considered more its failure than as a successful implementation of a touch screen. I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. What do you think, JamesGecko?

Re:A fanboy this way walks

[JamesGecko]

Well, yeah. The Newton isn't very useful for much today aside from basic PDA fuctions and ebook reading. It was pretty amazing when it was released, though.
It stored all its information in a common format in a database filesystem type thing, allowing any data to be accessed by any program. Or something like that. I've never actually used one, this is based upon second-hand information. Also, I believe the handwriting recognition system was only surpassed a few years ago.

The Newton might not be relevent today, but I think it was ahead of it's time.

...Oh, nice article, btw. ;-)