Slashdot Mirror
India and NASA to Explore Moon Together
hotsauce writes "NASA administrator Griffin on a visit to Indian space facilities in Bangalore has signed an agreement to explore the moon with the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO). This agreement will see NASA instruments on a 2008 Indian moon mission, and further cooperation is being explored. An Indian paper has a different take on the visit. Interesting answer by Griffin on NASA outsourcing to ISRO."
And you thought the latency on calls to Dell's help desk was bad now...
Trolling is a art,
Griffin said NASA was not looking to outsource some of its work to ISRO. NASA was looking to combine the resources both agencies to undertake ventures of mutual interest.
(Yeah, yeah, I know I'm enabling bad behavior, but slashdot needs all the help it can get.)
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
Curried Tang
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
ISRO Chairman: "We (ISRO and NASA) would like to see how best we can avoid duplication of efforts, especially in areas like earth observation and space sciences."
It sounds great, but it can also be seen as piggybacking on NASA's technology.
So what does NASA stand to benefit? To prove that they did land on the moon?
Please stop entering code 2,2,7,6,6,4
The summary author would have been more correct in linking to the following story rather than attempting to make commentary by selecting the link they did: http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14200860
It's not "another take" they link to, but rather "another story". Related, yes, but lets try a little harder (yes, it's slashdot, etc, etc but it doesn't hurt to try)
Since progress in this field is really beneficial to all of humanity, it's really good to see more countries joining forces to move progress along. I think in the long run privitization of the space industry is the way to go, but until that industry takes off a world wide coalition to push things forward might be our best bet for progress.
Go ahead and call me unreliable; reliable is just a synonym for predictable.
The race to open the first lunar Kwik-E-Mart.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Sounds like an Irwin Allen sci-fi series.
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ISRO's mission will carry payloads for NASA. It is piggybacking in a literal sense, but the other way around.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
I think that, when they talk about lifting sanctions on "Indian space units", they mean relaxing/removing the sanctions imposed on high-tech exports to India.
1998 was when the U.S. flipped out over India's nuclear tests.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
I doubt that "benefitting all humanity" has anything to do with this partnership. It's about the economics of it.
First of all, we must remember that Indian engineers are just as capable as engineers from any other part of the world. While we have all had horrible experiences talking with tech support representatives over there, that is in no way indicative of their engineering talent. India especially has become one of the world leaders in aerospace research.
Second of all, at this time, an American dollar goes a very long way in India. As with outsourcing in the IT field, it is often cheaper for American companies to buy the services of Indian engineers, rather than hire domestic workers.
Third, we must also remember that America has lost much of its heavy manufacturing to nations like India and China in the past two decades. Indian firms may be better equipped to actually manufacture the rocketry and componentry needed for missions to the moon.
I doubt that trying to benefit humanity has any significant role in this decision. It seems more like a prudent financial move, in that it may significantly reduce costs.
NASA has decided that it would be cheaper to send Indian employees up with the astronauts and sell the radio equipment. If the austronauts have a problem, they can ask the tech support crew, who will have scripts for the most common problem situations.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
Now that we've outsourced (offshored) offworlding to India... The country with the least space experience that still can launch sats... we could buy off-the-shelf Mars systems Made-in-China or somesort instead of doing a stupid space-exploration thingy... Afterall, isn't that what made WalMart great?
that flying carpets are a myth, right? I know NASA is under some budget crunches, but honestly...
What part of "minimum miss distance" do you not quite understand?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I just think it's neat that India is sending a mission to the moon, allbeit an unmanned one. And for all the outsourcing jokes, the fact that it's NASA getting payload space from India seems to make NASA seem like more of a joke. Of course, to them it probably is a joke, since they've already been there. It looks like, with the ESA and Bulgaria also sending payloads, the better joke would be one about the Indian mission being like a taxi driver. If it was Indian astronauts in a NASA shuttle, then there'd be a good opportunity for outsourcing jokes.
I wonder who the next nation to walk on the moon will be?
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to conviction
1. The current nominal miss distance is 33LD, with a mimium miss distance of .04LD. When two estimates are so darn far apart, it makes it difficult to have any faith in their estimations. It's like saying, "between 4 and 33 million people will die of the bird flu". Some of the larger parts have been calculated more accurately, but this one has not been updated in over a week.
2. The nominal miss distance is calculated on a two-body system (comet and sun) that does not accomodate for the earth's gravity, as I understand it. Furthermore, the distance is from the center of mass of the two objects, which when you add the radius of the earth, drops the distance to just over 5,000 miles. This leads into the next problem...
3. The Roche limit for the earth is 11470 miles. That is the point at which tidal forces would tear an object apart. That would mean that the 5,000 mile estimate would put this thing in a place where it could be further fractured.
So, with all that in mind, plus the fact that there may be hundred of more chunnks of comet that no one has seen yet, plus several asteroids that will be passing within 6LD around the same time, makes me raise an eyebrow.
--Chag
Intresting.. they have a good simulation here http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/db_shm?sstr=73P-BD
looks like a near miss to me.. yes it is close but it is a miss and that is all that counts
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
Astronauts can get purchas a cool refreshing Squishy.
Thank you! Come Again.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This, combined with the recent nuclear deals with India, are prettly clearly geopolitical moves to bolster an economic and technological counterweight to China. Space science has little to do with it.
The minimum shown there is based on a three-sigma variance - there's only an 0.03% chance the comet fragment will come closer than that. So, one in ten thousand. Don't lose any sleep over it.
I think you have been reading too much Yahoo! news.
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/news/index.html
A miss is as good as a mile. Or 5 million miles.
I purposely worded the phrase "another take on the /visit/" and not "another take on the story" because I found it interesting that while the BBC thought Griffin's visit important for the moon exploration cooperation, Sify (and others) thought the visit important as a sanctions ender.
I did see the link to the Sify story that reported on the MOU (it's clearly in the story I linked to), but thought the end of (most) sanctions to be an important story, too.
Lies about crimes
How dare you pollute this off-topic discussion with FACTS??? Oh, the shame of it all!
Because Japan was never ruled by greedy idiots (British and Muslims). Because India was dumb enough not to invest in its own military and modernization.
Those who give stupid comparisions need to understand that there still are homeless and starving population in US of A and that these two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
I know the world exists because I exist.
India has been courted by Presidents of both parties in America, and counts a full 1/3 of Congress in the India Caucus. That speaks volumes for how important India is to our American interests. Then there's the obvious close ties India has to Europe, and especially Britain. American foreign policy interests are also greatly helped by a country that is the world's largest democracy in a rather un-democratic neighborhood, and has very good relations with Israel, also in a neighborhood where Israel has few friends.
The cold war relations between America and India were truly a mistake, and a lost opportunities for both our countries, and I'm glad to see the US finally form the strong bonds with a country that will necessarily be one of the most important in the world in the coming years.
Years of propping up dictators in Africa and Pakistan have done us no good, and have only bred festering flash-points. It's time we gave some serious thought to a relataionship that has and will continue to produce excellent dividends for both parties.
Chutney Squishee
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Of course, to them [NASA] it probably is a joke, since they've already been there.
A surprising number of people are expressing this sentiment. NASA "has already been there" with much older equipment, most of which was simply geared to keep humans alive. This mission gives the opportunity to do real science with modern equipment, and answer new questions, for instance Smart 1's survey of surface elements to confirm theories about the origin of the moon.
Lies about crimes
...received from my Crystal Ball(TM):
"New Delhi, we have a problem."
"Thank you for calling Mission Control. May I be having your name, address, and current software version please?"
"The software has locked us out. We need you to make a course correction in exactly 20 seconds!"
"Certainly sir. If I could just be having your license number please."
"License number?! Just fire thrusters 2 and 3 for 4.5 seconds on my mark!"
"You're Mark? Thank you for giving me your name, but I am needing your license code too please."
"Our license number is going to be 3-D-E-A-D-G-U-Y-S if you don't fire the thrusters in--5 seconds!"
"If this is an emergency request, please be giving me your express service code."
"Express... Hey Buzz, crack the main hatch open for 5 seconds on my mark... NOW! We'll have to hope this works."
"I'm sorry sir, but it appears you have voided your warranty. Please be having a nice day."[click]
Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
The privatization pancea comes up on every space story, but science is not neccessarily profitable. That's why there has always been a strong government role in fundamental research. Hence government funding, and (even in the US) institutions like the NIH, CDC, and yes, NASA.
Lies about crimes
It's troll tuesday. Slashcode turns all troll downmods into positive karma on tuesdays, didn't you know? Anyways, I've been here since the beginning. My karma was crazy high before the cap. It hasn't budged from "excellent" since. I make 4-5 +5 comments per week, at least. I could give a rats ass if some humor impaired mod thinks I'm a troll.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
lighten up. Of course I know the difference between Perisans and Indians, Indians listen to Bhangra dance music while they drive their cabs.
You people and the truth. The truth is in your gut and I felt that a joke about India and magic carpets would be funny, and it was, but then along you came with your facts and books and shit.
The Japanese were way ahead of Indians in many respects. Singular language and religion for the most part, with general homogeneity. The Indians have a fragmented culture - hundred of subdialects, subsects of religion that are well nigh incompatible with one another. Indians and Africans are very interesting to me, because most people see them from the outside as one monolithic culture, but they are an amalgam of dozens, hundreds of cultures. They get along imperfectly because they are different. This is mis-perceived by outsiders. India and Africa also share the same problems associated with Imperialism - and how it negatively affected their populace. Africa, moreso, obviously. The Japanese, by and large, are one people.
NATIONALISM: Getting their asses kicked in WWII was a GREAT motivator. No offense to any Japanese members of our community. India has no such unifying struggle.
Also, even back then, the Japanese were working towards a urban environment. Cities all over. Things go way faster the denser the population is in an urban center with access to education and opportunity. India is not as such.
Indians also has entrenched cultural mores that make their society resistant to change. Not so Japanese. They are a remarkably adaptable people.
SCALE: India is a billion people+. There is no dictatorship/regime to issue authoritarian demands. JApan is a much smaller country. Scale counts. Bigger things move slower. Exceptions are dictatorships - etc, where there are singular visions and people are forced to adhere.
Poor economic policies. It's easy to call them poor in hindsight, but many countries thought them a good idea at the time (witness the Soviets, with otherwise very impressive achievements). Also, these policies were born out of fear--India had been colonized by a company, and was very concerned about foreign trade and private companies.
Since the 1990s, India has changed economic course, with good results. The Indian government still believes that satelite communications forms an important part of basic infrastructure in a country that large, and studies have shown that it is cheaper for India to run its own space program than pay others to build and maintain satelites and infrastructure.
India spends $700 million a year on its space program. So the choice is: give each citizen less than a dollar a year, or build a modern communications and research infrastructure that enables enterprise and creates jobs. No country ever got rich off handouts.
Lies about crimes
Your argument is weak in the sense that when Japan developed it's industry, 100+ years ago, it was betting on the emerging technology and economy. India is also making a bet on what the emerging technology and economy will be. I think there is actually some similarity to Japan's strategy. Also, given India's population, they need a big win. Space based technology and industry could provide that big win, competing with China over who is going to be the low cost industrial manufacturer would not be a big win.
oh no, India had its problems WAY before British imperialism, people were treated even WORSE before then.
Japan targeted a number of industries. In particular, they targeted autmobiles and electronics. This was set up by the gov. (MITI). At first, they were considered inferior products. But as time went on, they improved with quality while keeping costs low. That allowed them to build up a nice middle class. And now, of course, they are the power house that they are.
India targeted Hollywood (bollywood). Most of their films are sold outside of india, just not big in USA/Europe. In USA, you can see them at the local artistic theaters.
About 20 years ago, they started targeting software by sending students to the states. More so, the amount of outsourcing that has gone on is now allowing India to create a small amount of in-country software. You will soon see a number of exported software coming from them (esp in linux).
Now, they are targeting space and nukes (esp power generation using iodine). It will take them 20 years, but they will most likely have very large thriving industries developed that will lead to more middle classes.
India is doing the japan trick in the same way that Korea did. China is taking a different tack.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
True; there are only so many countries that can be in high profit industries before they become competitive low profit industries. India has to try to jump ahead to have a chance at anything that will bring in a lot of $$$.
wow. how can such a (presumably) well educated crowd as slashdot remain so fricking ignorant about the world? whats with all these racist jokes? sometimes when i read slashdot's blatant racism, methinks that india is doing the world a huge favor by taking away valuable jobs from the hands of such ignorance.
first, you forget that the US dumped tons of $$ into the reconstruction of japan. the british did not do that for india, despite having wrecked the indian economic potential far more surely than the americans did the japanese. you forget that india suffered 200 yrs of brutal colonial rule that left all but a tiny fragment of its ppl uneducated. you forget that under colonialism, indians weren't even allowed to run anything that resembled industry... it was illegal to do more than grow basic commodity crops for british consumption. when india got indepedence, it had an industrial revolution to catch up on. japan did not have to go through that -- they had industrial know-how all along.
the indian space research organization is single-mindedly dedicated to the development of technology that benefits civilians. you can read about that yourself. the moon-mission is the first gamble they are taking wherein they hope that a challenging outer-space mission will both boost their technological know-how and in turn help civilians in the future, and also ignite the minds of indian children regarding technology and space. yes, i understand that americans who were born before the 90s can't see anything outside the cold-war prism. but really, indians just want to push their technology further...
why did japan not invest into military and nuclear technology the way india has? simply b/c it has always been under the american military and nuclear umbrella. india, on the other had, was treated as a pariah by the US for not kowtowing to american foriegn policy. india has had to suffer embargos and sanctions for its right to defend itself. in contrast the obstentatiously peace-loving japanese could pretend that it didn't want to develop a strong military or militaristic technology, when in reality it has just counted on the US to protect it.
ok, enough. i'm not getting paid to educate this lot. nor is it entirely feasible.
We practice day in and day out on the roads over here. The goverment strongly believes that all the citizens of calcutta should be able to drive on the surface of the moon, just in case an opportunity like this comes by.
"Why did Japan succeed but India fail?"
I think comparision between India and Japan is wrong. Japan was fighting the world during WWII i.e. it was a world power, India at the time was coming out of a British rule that had slaved it.
All Japan really had to do is recover from WWII and the nukes. India had to start from scratch. Its only been 55 odd years or so since British rule ended in India. 55 Years is not a lot of time for a country to get freedom and stand on its feat.
Closest I would compare here is that Japan has succeeded and India is still writing its exam, judgement is still out.
There is a reason to why everyone is worried about outsourcing to India. This is also where NASA can learn from India. Budget for ISRO is nothing compared to that of NASA, nonetheless ISRO is in a select class of organization that has managed to launch a one ton plus satellite into orbit.
This is where NASA has most to gain, getting things done for lesser costs. Further, no single event except for wars have helped technology as much as NASA's Man on the Moon mission.
ISRO's exploration of the moon has similar objectives as well.
After WW II Japan's government was for a long time controlled by the US. They were not allowed to build a large military or develop nuclear weapons. The Japanese did not really have much say in this. Even today, the US has substantial influence and the current governmental structures would take a monumental effort to change. It had nothing to do with the "nuclear umbrella". To some degree it was the same for West Germany. Neither the British nor French felt safe under the American Umbrella and so developed their own nuclear weapons.
As for your misrepresentations about the Brits not permitting industrial development, you may want to have words with this company as well as others. When the Brits left, the Indians did not want major assistance programs from any western power and were prefering to flirt with the Soviets at the time.
See my journal, I write things there
This is not 'outsourcing' as some said, but is in fact a very good step in the right direction.
As we know, space exploration is not cheap, and to advance the knowledge and technology at a significant pace often requires the resources of a government, or several governments.
With very few politicians seeing a return on investment (justly or not) in space travel, NASA budgets are shrinking, and cooperation between governments to reduce the financial burden sounds like a great thing.
I think this also might help bring about a sense of global ownership and responsibility regarding space exploration, which in my opinion is crucial to significant advances.
Big ones, small ones, some as big as yer 'ead!
Give 'em a twist, a flick o' the wrist...
Not to mention, India's budget allocations for space exploration is miniscule compared to, not just imperial Japan's war-budget, but also to India's own spending on poverty alleviation. Perhaps not compared to primary education or healthcare in some parts, but hey, you weren't complaining about the state of schools in Bastar region were you?
More than mere navel gazing.
"Griffin said NASA was not looking to outsource some of its work to ISRO. NASA was looking to combine the resources [of] both agencies to undertake ventures of mutual interest."
Uh, like what exactly is the difference and how does one tell?
Table-ized A.I.
I noticed that the jokes (or what passes for a joke) are linguistic in nature, what makes it even funnier is that they come from inhabitants of a nation that has bastardized a perfectly good language themselves and would not be able to save their live reciting one word of Hindi.
You never catch me alive
International Trade in Arms Regulations (USA law) will probably scotch any cooperation agreement NASA would like to have with anybody outside the USA (except Canada). Space related technology is listed as 'arms'.
European satellite manufacturers are marketing "ITAR Free" products - meaning no USA technical input whatsoever.
And you bring religion into this because??? Just proves you are a bigotted idiot.
kind regards.
Why is it "India" and NASA? ISRO (Indian Space Research Organization) is funded by the Indian Govt, using Indian taxpayers Rupees just like how NASA is funded by American taxpayers dollars.
At the same time when Daimler-Benz bought out Chrysler, nobody went out saying that Germany has bought Chrysler. If NASA collaborates with the European Space Agency, are we going to see a headline that says - NASA and Europe to collaborate?.
Its the same regardless of whether its India or China.
Ahh - when was India ruled by Muslims? Are you sure you're not thinking Pakistan?
if they can send a mission to moon and do all the launching stuff they have been doing over the years with about $700 mn annual budget i am all for it (source :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Space_Researc h_Organization)
For comparision the alaskan bridge costs about 250 million!
Well there is a difference between India and US and other countries...US was unable to get Statue of Liberty from across the Atlantic even after 100 years of Indipendence...Contrast India...Its planning to help go across the boundries of Earth in just over 60 years of Indipendence...Call it greatness of a nation or whatever....But the fact is India is not targetting just one thing...It beleives in all round development....Indian are inclined intellectually in general and have a strong desire to excell....To top that environment factors are right now faverable to allow Indian to expore their dream...Guess u guys forgot that India sent help for Katrina Disaster...and refused any help when Tsunami struck....instead help others nations like Sri Lanka and Maldives.....It just shows the growing strength of India in all fields.....Rome was not built in a day and India had been destoyed and pushed further down during the rule of Brits....Thats a fact none can deny....Now India is coming up...But the fact is that NASA is interested because it wants to cover up the big Apollo Hoax that it went to moon. Guess those radiation and X-Ray sensors will tell a big story....Waiting for that truth to come up
Will the radiation and Xray detectors tell the real story of Apollo Mission...Will the truth be revealed....Or NASA is doing a coverup by joining forces with ISRO.
how can such a (presumably) well educated crowd as slashdot remain so fricking ignorant about the world?
The handful of posts you are referring to are hardly reflective all of slashdot readers. And further, possession of an education does not necessarily equate to good judgment and a reasonable assessment.
the indian space research organization is single-mindedly dedicated to the development of technology that benefits civilians
Actually, this ISRO/NASA agreement is a very interesting proposition. It will be a benefit to the entire world if ISRO becomes a major player in space exploration.
yes, i understand that americans who were born before the 90s can't see anything outside the cold-war prism
Hmm. A blatantly racist and ageist sounding statement. It may suit your anger to lump everyone together and assume ignorance, but this is an act of laziness and ignorance on your part. Quite a few of us pre 90s people are not in agreement with decisions our government has made. Policy is bought by special interests, not through wise decision making by fairly elected leaders.
Japan had one big advantage over India . They never let themselves be colonized at the height of imperialism. Even when they finally became a colony of the US it was after a long war which had taught the Americans fear and respect for their colonial subjects. In contrast when the British came to India , India was going through a pretty bad period of Muslim colonization and Hindu resistance with the result that India was a patchwork of small Hindu and Muslim states each fighting each other and not having any sense of national identity. In fact the current India is not really a nation state in the modern sense. Places like the Northeast have always been more part of South East Asia than India while places like Pakistan and Afghanistan which had been the nurseries of Hindu culture are overrun by Muslims and no longer part of India. The amazing thing is India stays together instead of breaking into 10s of states like Africa. Comparing it with a homogenous state like Japan is patently unfair. Despite all this if India is managing to launch satellites its very creditable.
Also the cheap shot about nuclear weapons versus development is not really fair. India had the theoretical knowledge for nukes well before anyone else. The basic equations for nuclear physics are the Bose-Einstein equations invented by J C Bose an Indian scientist and published jointly with Einstein( In the racist academia of 1930s an unknown Indian scientist could not get even path breaking discoveries published until Einstein recognized his genius and offered to copublish). So India could have been working on nuclear tech as soon as Independence i.e. 1947 and probably beat even the French to the punch. However the Indian government made a concious decision not to work on nuclear research and to concentrate on development. However after being defeated by China in 1962 and with the explosion of the Chinese nuclear weapon India was left with no choice and had to start a nuclear weapon program and within the decade they had the bomb in 1972.
Its easy to say money should only be spent on development but one should understand the bigger picture. India lives in a very hostile neighbourhood and sometimes Guns have to come before Butter.
Besides the nuclear and space programs are a way of having opportunities for highly educated and intelligent Indian scientists else they will all emigrate to US and Western Europe. Once the top scientists leave even the other parts of the technological infrastructure (the part related to development) tends to collapse.
So just like the US government spends money on University research and Nasa the Indian government spends money on ISRO. Call it welfare for techies but its a necessity
**Life is too short to be serious**
I said readers, not posters to this particular thread. There is a difference. Perhaps you really didn't understand this. However it certainly is pathetic to make comments about flying carpets, etc.
You've replaced THINK ABOUT YOUR BREATHING as my favorite slashdot troll. I salute you, good sir.
Didn't exactly hurt space science...
I basically agree. The India/Japan comparison does not hold water. In fact, a comparison with India and Israel would be more accurate and meaningful.
1) Both countries have ancient cultures with long histories of many achievements. Both cultures are widely misunderstood and demonized in many parts of the world.
1.5) Both countries have multi-ethnic and pluralist societies and have absorbed many cultures into their flock.
2) Both countries went through periods of severe unrest when the majority group were persecuted by foreign powers and driven out (in the case of Israel) or enslaved into dhimmitude (in the case of India).
3) Both countries were British colonies.
4) Both countries spawned nations in the same year (1947-48).
5) Both countries are surrounded by intensely hostile enemies with a deep-seated hatred for their country (though, as an Indian, I'll admit Israel has done a better job of tackling them, as our government did not prioritize military development and anti-terrorism until our rather embarassing retreat in the face of Chinese aggression during the SI war, and increasing terrorist attacks in Kashmir). This lends credence the the parent's point about the importance of military development in India.
6) Both countries have a growing urban middle class, with a strong technokrati and educational institutes like the Indian Institutes of Technology, BITS etc and Technion,Ben-Gurion University etc. which have produced highly successful graduates that help build up the nation.
7. Both countries want to invest in technology and in building a modern economy.
Unfortunately, these similarities have escaped many of my countrymen, as, throughout the cold war, the leftist fools in our govenment (not my government, I never voted for them) ran behind everything the Bolshies said or did, and this included cold-shouldering Israel (though we did buy newer RADAR technologies from Israel during the SI war and the war with Pakistan, and MOSSAD agents helped train RAW). India and Israel established full diplomatic relations in 1992, and now political relations ar better. India should carefully observe Israel and learn from it's success, as the social and political raw material does exist in India to build a nation modelled on Israel and achieve their level of success.
l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
I wasn't sure I was going to mod you down for being an idiot or responding to your comment. I will be the bigger man and respond. The Mughal Era was from 1526-1707 and was defined as a Muslim empire. The era after that was the Maratha Era who were (from Wikipedia): "The Hindu Marathas long had lived in the Desh region around Satara, in the western portion of the Deccan plateau, where the plateau meets the eastern slopes of the Western Ghats mountains."
If you have parsing troubles, since 1707 India was ruled by Hindus. During the colonial period, the British had an influence but most of the dirty work was done by Hindus who were sympathetic to British goals. To blame Muslim governance for modern poverty in India shows you are not only ignorant but also a bigot. I know it is the "in thing" these days to blame everything on Muslims but try to pick some more obscure events for we can't easily prove people of your ilk to be wrong.
Not that I agree with the ancestor post that the Muslims were to blame for anything. They had a lasting influence on Indian culture, and some (like Akbar) contributed to learning in many respects. The first Mughal (Babar) may have been a foreign invader but his descendants weren't.
Dear idiot, Muslim is not a religion. Islam is the religion. And GP is correct. India was invaded first by mughal/muslim invaders that came via Afghanistan and ruled it for a few hundred years, and then finally by british who came masquerading as traders and then managed to rule it by their policy of divide and rule and betrayals. GP is referring to muslims as a community identifier rather than having anything to do with Islam the religion. He is also off the mark. Muslim rulers of India at least did not loot the country and take its riches elsewhere. At worst they just imposed their own conservative culture on the vanquished. British on the other hand, tried their utmost to steal the riches and resources for centuries. The diamond jewel in the crown and scepter of the Queen itself for example, is property of India that was stolen away by the british, and has still not been returned despite repeated requests by the Indian government. Or you can look at the examples of cruel exploitations like chopping off the hands of hundreds of "neel" dye farmers of Bengal, who were much more skilled than the machines of the textile industry of Britain, and were considered a major hurdle towards establishing a market for british textiles in India. Go and read up a bit on history please.
You talk lines quite easily.. if you were Indian or know our history, you wouldn't generalise.
It's hard to trust "western powers" after 200 years of colonial rule. Colonial rule started cause we (Indians) trusted the British in business in the first place.
About health and literacy programmes, yes it's unfortunate that our level of literacy is low. But it doesn't mean there isn't enthusiasm to help. Factors such as corruption have hurt this.. but we still have goals to make everyone literate. It is in fact a basic right of every child in India to be entitled free and compulsary education. But in a highly populated country like India, it's easier said than done.
But all things must move, and just cause we want health and literacy, it doesn't mean that we just ignore other development. There's greater room for development.. due to the amount of population (which also means high competition) and the _quality of education available to the middle classes_, India has a large number of intelligent people. Scientific research and development, and engineering would usher in development of infrastructure.. these are related.
Again, all this is easier said than done.. but instead of pooh-poohing our approach, you should be glad we are doing something about it. India is not very far off from the likes of the U.S. We value freedom too.. we are a democracy. Our markets are just as capitalist.
There are incidents you'd prolly hear about, about communal violence, etc. But do you hear about the number of Indians of different religions, cultures, etc. living in perfect harmony (read the vast majority of the Indian public)? It's quite a feat to pull off. It's no simple task to administer a country of this size.
Progress can only be slow and steady. It's certainly not flat as you can see.
Banu
Wow what bullshit. How can you be modded insightful?>! For a start, Japan was already an advanced nation before the US "dumped tons of $$ into its reconstruction". Do you really think that attack on Pearl Harbour was done by a third world nation?! Second, "all but a tiny fragment of" india's "ppl" were "already uneducated" before they saw British rule. Don't blame it on the Brits. Blame it on the Indians themselves and their thousands of years of rotten caste system that favours only a tiny fragment of the population to receive education and anything resembling human rights, while the rest toil in shit. And, guess what, a friggin' huge fragment of its population are STILL uneducated, hundreds and hundreds of millions, and the upper castes that fill up the political bodies STILL don't friggin' care much about them! Compare that with China and how well China did on eradicating illiteracy, disease and hunger in its population. Countries that have advanced had a strong ethic of equality and solidarity, for everyone in them; where on Earth have you heard of "untouchables" except in India?! India is the place where if you're toiling in shit and on the verge of starvation you're thought of "it's your karma, you had been been wicked in a past life, you deserve all you get you POS!".
You've forgetten an important fact: India is largely unaffected by the WW2 (when compare with most of the countries in Asia/ Europe). No major battle has broken out on her soil. So, the rebuilt effort after independence is more about how to revert to normal life after colonialism. (Well, the Bengal famine did kill many civilian, but it mainly affects the regions in where known as Bangladesh rather than India proper. ). India was in a much better starting line than most in the region.
The ridiculous fact after World War Two in Asia is the penality is inversely proportional to the suffering. The aggressor (Japan) was rebuilt with the help of US. Apart from token gesture (e.g. left the factories and machinery in occupied land) Japan did not compensate to anyone to any significant extend (Korea/ China/ Philipine/ Indonesia/ Vietnam just name a few, of which their countries were absolutely devastated by the invading Japanese army).
I hereby stand corrected. <insert image of afaik_ianal(nor a historian) running away with tail firmly between legs>
Wait a second. This is slashdot. Aren't I supposed to find some subtle reason why I'm technically right? Oh, wait - I must be new here ;)
Let me fix some misconceptions that you have.
"The Indians have a fragmented culture - hundred of subdialects, subsects of religion that are well nigh incompatible with one another."
The Indians have a diverse culture (and not a fragmented one). They do get along with each other quite well.
"The Japanese, by and large, are one people."
Well, that may not be accurate. But I am not the best person to comment on that.
"India has no such unifying struggle.
Also, even back then, the Japanese were working towards a urban environment. Cities all over."
Indian were fighting against the Brits for freedom.
Exceptions are dictatorships - etc,
I am sure you are not suggesting that dictatorship is good. Although US of A has a bit of it.
BTW, How many times have you visited India ?
And you think computer tech support is bad now... Just wait until our calls are answered by Mooninites!
Out of order? Fuck! Even in the future nothing works! - Dark Helmet (Rick Moranis) "Spaceballs"
the original parent was a bit off the mark lumping the vocal retards as a representation of the majority view, but your ridiculously retarded retort isn't helping the situation any.
If you think Europe hasn't had its share of untouchables, namely the lowly polack migrants, the gypsies and various other subhuman castes of europeans then you are extremely misinformed. Every society has had, and still has a disdain of the working class, the poor, the weak and the sick; generally people who have through no fault of their own are destined to live in the rough, and cruel fringes of society, where human beings are still trafficked like livestock and life is worth very little. The ultra rich in america would never think of even passing through certain sections of america. These people were at a loss to explain why evacuation plans for katrina could not assume that everyone had a car and family scattered in suburbs all across america. These same rich people in america would NEVER think of visiting the land of starving african skeletors plagues by insect infestations, disease and malnutrition. In fact would you? The peacecorps is admirable in theory but a very large percentage of us would never raise a finger to help the horrible conditions in darfur or the various other deplorable regions of the world. Do you have any idea why we find paris hilton's antics on her show kind of strange? Today, right now there is a global underclass, a global batch of untouchables that only the most pious, principled individuals would go out of their way to aid (mother theresa comes to mind). In fact religious orders all over the world exist and have existed to keep this class sedated. The hindus had their religious order to spread their BS about karma and the christians had their BS about the elect, and divine right of kings for the dirty dirty serfs (let's not forget concubines, primanocte etc hmm? )
The original poster wasn't fair in lumping all slashdot americans into the same misinformed racist category that you inhabit, but you have not acquitted yourself any more admirably.
Good day sir.
Not to rain on your parade, but umm, "boundaries of Earth"? Isn't the Earth an oblate spheroid in shape?
More than mere navel gazing.
Guess you forgot what it means...where do u belong to...earth or mars???
Mars, naturally.
But my bad; didn't quite notice that you were denying Moon landings as well.
More than mere navel gazing.
C man, I have seen the documentry of this moon landing being fake...The xray and the radiation meter will give the conclusive proof of Moon landing being a fake or genuine one...Check on google video of that documentry...you will definately find it...See that and we can continue our discussion about it :-)
I say forget the fscking space program at ISRO in Banglaore, why not just make sure that the people there all have access to clean running water, or perhaps the politicians owning the water trucks won't like it. Access to clean water is seen as a key indicator of development, not a space program.
Then there are the towns and villages vs the big cities. It is great that so many have jobs in the big cities, but what about the rest? It is a very interesting to drive to a major Indian software company (sitting in its customs zone) and compare the affluence of the company in its shiny new campus to the poverty outside.
Apparently it costs around $2.5K to have a child in a big city if you want proper medical care. I know plenty of Indians that can afford it, but their drivers, cooks etc., won't be able to. They can just afford to exist.
Will the poor people accept this for a long period, well probably not? Historically this will mean civil unrest, which is why those big software companies stockpile supplies (diesel, food, water and so on).
Lastly, if India was a true democracy, please can they dispose of their dirty politicians and get some things done for the ordinary people!!!
See my journal, I write things there