20 Things You Won't Like About Vista

feminazi writes "Computerworld's Scot Finnie details 20 things you won't like in Windows Vista, with a visual tour to prove it. He says that MS has favored security over end-user productivity, making the user feel like a rat caught in a maze with all the protect-you-from-yourself password-entry and 'Continue' boxes required by the User Account Controls feature." From the article: "In its supreme state of being, Microsoft knows precisely what's best for you. It knows that because its well-implemented new Sleep mode uses very little electricity and also takes only two or three seconds to either shut down or restart, you want to use this mode to 'turn off' your computer, whether you realize it or not. It wants to teach you about what's best. It wants to make it harder for you to make a mistake."

Comments

Slashdot through the looking glass?

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

He says that MS has favored security over end-user productivity, making the user feel like a rat caught in a maze with all the protect-you-from-yourself password-entry and 'Continue' boxes required by the User Account Controls feature."

Interesting - I'm reading an article on slashdot that's criticising MS for favouring security over..... well anything!

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[Golias]

Everything about this article seems kind of strange. Better security is mostly a good thing, especially for an OS as traditionally as insecure as Windows, isn't it?

It knows that because its well-implemented new Sleep mode uses very little electricity and also takes only two or three seconds to either shut down or restart, you want to use this mode to 'turn off' your computer, whether you realize it or not.

Um... I mostly use Macs, and I almost NEVER shut them off, for that very reason. I'm sure once Windows users finally have a sleep mode that actually fucking works like it's supposed to, they will also discover that simply closing the laptop lid (or selecting "Sleep" instead of "Shut Down" on their desktops), and being ready to do stuff in a manner of seconds when you come back to it, is a far, far nicer way to live as well.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[Daniel_Staal]

Depends on how it's done. Poorly designed security (that gets in your way, and interupts needlessly and annoyingly) gets turned off, or worked around. Turning it off may include installing XP.

Security isn't just 'lock things up by default', it is thinking about what needs to be locked, when it needs to be locked, and how is the best way to unlock it when that is necisary.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[pizza_milkshake]

agreed. password prompts do not a secure system make.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[cmacb]

Well, I can't get to the article but...

The irony here is that almost every instance of "insecure by design" in Microsoft's products were introduced to put a competitor at a disadvantage. It's not like they made unknowing mistakes or something, and in fact in many cases they were criticized by the minority of people who worried about security all along, even to the point of inventing proof of concept exploits to show the dangers.

Now they are going to "clean up their act", but I bet you at least a part of their problem with bloat is that these security concepts were not designed in earlier. I really feel sorry for my friends who think that they just HAVE to used Windows or Windows based products. They don't, but I don't feel like spending any more time preaching to them.

The numbers are still small, but I think there is a critical mass of people who can get what they need to do done without constant fear of attack (I'm speaking of Linux and OS X users) who will serve as role models for "the masses" to find their way out of the badlands that Microsoft has lead them into.

Oh man I'm having a metaphor Thursday.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[katsiris]

Sleep mode, like it or not, is still throwing energy out the window. I can understand during the day when you may be away from the computer for half an hour or something, but people leaving their systems on overnight for the sake of 20 seconds in the morning are wasting energy and money. In fact, I seem to recall a study criticizing Sleep mode because users tend to leave monitors and computers on all the time and let them sleep which resulted in actually wasting more energy than people who might have left their computer run inactive for an hour here and there but shut it down overnight.

Anyway, I'm sure you know all this, but not everyone seems to appreciate this fact.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[odourpreventer]

sleep mode that actually fucking works like it's supposed to

My Acer laptop running WinXP has Stand By (draining the battery a little) and Hibernate (no drain) and both work like a charm. No problems whatsoever. Restarts are few and far in-between. Does this make my laptop unique?

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[Dephex Twin]

In the Network section of your System Prefereces, there is a place to move around the Wi-Fi network priority list. You can tell it to join the last one you were on, or the one closest to the top of the list (you could even remove your neighbor's network from the list completely), or to just join one precise network and don't look for anything else.

Try messing around there and see if you solve the problem.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[jandrese]

The sleep mode gets better with each release of Windows. XP is pretty much as good as the Macs, however because there is a lot of ingrown distrust of Sleep mode in Windows from years of bad experiance with it, many people still instinctivly shut off their machines anyway.

I use the sleep mode on my modern Windows laptop without any trouble.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[HardCase]

From MacInTouch, about a year and a half ago:

Jan. 25, 2005

Boyd Waters
I plugged the power brick of my Mac Mini into a simple integrating power meter. Here is what I measured:

        Off 0-2 Watts
        Booting 30-40 Watts
        Idle 25 Watts
        Sleep 3-5 Watts, almost always 3 Watts

The power brick is rated at 85 Watts output. I have yet to measure power consumption during a compute-intensive task such as DVD playback.

I think the 40 Watt max was during hard disk and DVD spin-up at boot time. Idle means that the disk is spinning, booted, logged in, at the Finder with no user input.

I have a rather complex array of stuff plugged into the Mini via USB; there are two switches and at least one USB cable with in-line LED indicators, a wireless receiver for keyboard and mouse (Gyration, recommended, works fine with Mac or PC).

Of course this power reading does not include the monitor or the external FireWire disk.

I note that this power consumption level compares favorably with my 15-inch aluminum PowerBook, which has approximately the same specifications as the Mac Mini (but cost 3 times as much). The 15 PowerBook draws about 25 Watts nominally, about twice that under heavy compute load or charging the battery while running (as opposed to charging the battery during sleep).

Further note that the power brick and monitor are plugged into an APC uninterruptible power supply (a power strip with a battery back-up); I have yet to measure the difference in power consumption at the UPS wall outlet, but with the Mini asleep at 3 Watts, it's possible that the Mini makes no measurable difference in power consumption at the wall outlet.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[NetFu]

If you put your laptop to sleep a couple of times a day, and have no problem coming out of sleep or hibernate modes, then you are unique.

We have 45 salespeople with laptops who put their Windows laptops to sleep all the time without problems, but that's only because they shut down or restart once a week to avoid freezes, etc.

We have about 4-5 Mac laptops over the last 6 years that are always left in sleep mode, and I'm talking continuous sleep mode for up to a year at a time. We've never had a problem with Mac laptops going into or coming out of sleep mode.

Of all the salespeople we have with Windows laptops, many, many of them tell me how they close the lid of their laptop to put it to sleep, put it in their briefcase, then go to a customer or home (at the end of the day), and when they get to their destination, their briefcase is 150 degrees F because their laptop didn't actually go to sleep. And, either this causes a freeze-up, automatic shutdown because the laptop couldn't stay running with the screen on for more than 45 minutes, or it generally concerns me and them that the screen or hard disk could get screwed up. That hasn't with the Mac laptops in about 7+ years.

If you've never had problems like I'm describing, then you are very lucky or just have a new laptop (less than 6 months old). I'm telling you, however, that most people who use Windows laptops do have these problems and just live with them.

[rant]

If you don't think that Windows drivers can get corrupted on desktops, laptops, and servers for no real reason, causing bluescreens and general hard crashes, you haven't used Windows for very long. Why else would people like me have to reinstall drivers on Windows computers/servers even though the computer is never shut down or rebooted?

What's amazing with Windows is how you can use 3 apps on a Windows machine for 6 months, and have problems like these even though you never change anything after you initially set it up. I have a Windows desktop at home that I use to browse the web and play 3-4 different games, all of which were installed from the beginning. Everything else I do on our Mac laptops and computers. So, I use that desktop 2-3 times a week, maybe 10 hours a week. It should work the same way on day 180 that it worked on day 1, right?

Wrong.

Nothing has changed except installing high priority Windows patches (which you can't avoid) -- nothing else has been installed, and the games were patched only on day 1. But, boot and login times are slow, and I'm having video choppiness in some, but not all the games.

And, I'm not some idiot who doesn't have antivirus installed from day 1, or who would install miscellaneous crap without knowing it. Everything is the same, but Windows just *degrades* over time from continuous unchanging use. It shouldn't, but it does. So, even with a computer like that, I know I'm going to be reinstalling Windows a year after day 1. That's better than the 3-6 months I get with other Windows computers that are heavily used and changed, but still, why does Windows just fall apart while other OS's don't?

And, don't tell me it's because we install so much more crap in Windows than on other machines because we can. I've had Windows servers that are set up, locked down from day one, don't change, run 24x7, and then their video or ethernet drivers get corrupted causing a bluescreen that won't go away until I reinstall the drivers.

[/rant]

Sorry about that, but a lot of us on Slashdot have a lot (and I do mean a lot) of experience with the Windows frustrations that some people think are myths...

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[ivan256]

I can leave my powerbook asleep for 6 days before it runs out of battery. I can leave it off for.... 6 days before it runs out of battery. That tells me that the amount of electricity I'd be saving by shutting down instead of sleeping is too small to measure casually. Regardless of what you may think, the self-refresh mode of modern DRAM is very efficient, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if you used more electricity booting up once then you do in sleep mode all day. A pair of AAs could probably refresh your computer's DRAM for a month or longer (depending on how much you have, of course).

This may not be the case on some PCs. Mac sleep mode is legendary for how good it is, and PC sleep mode is notorious for how bad it is... Some of my PCs leave the fans spinning in sleep mode, for example. Others work great. I make no arguments or excuses for shitty components.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[Tycho]

I own an Acer laptop too, and I rarely restart it too. At any rate, according to the "Acer ePowerManagement" program my laptop currently with a full charge has a battery life of 156 hours in Standby or 65 days in Hibernation. The difference on a laptop is that in Standby, the RAM is kept on and in Hibernation the RAM is turned off. On a desktop computer with an ATX power supply there is a +5V rail on the power supply that is always on regardless of whether the computer is in Standby, Hibernation or in Shutdown. The only way to completely stop a desktop from drawing power is by turning the switch on the back of the power supply if present or unplugging the computer. I would not worry about this though as a computer turned off would use at the most 30W and probably much less. (Yes, I know the +5V rail is rated at 10W on an ATX power supply, but some power is lost as heat from the power conversion. In any case the difference between Standby and Hibernate is that Standby allows the computer to recover much faster than Hibernate after being powered up again.

At any rate in regards to the GP there are several potential pitfalls for the "Standby" state in for the average Windows user on a PC.

The biggest potential pitfall is that the PC may not have ACPI enabled in the BIOS on the computer. This problem is impossible to fix without a complete reinstall of Windows XP on a computer with ACPI disabled. Fortunately it is impossible to turn off ACPI support in the BIOS of most computers from within the last two to three years.

Another pitfall is the sleep state that the computer is set to in the BIOS. In the BIOS, the Standby state should be set to S3 or Auto and not S1. By default in the BIOS many of the motherboards I have used for home-built computers have had their Standby state set to S1. Standby in S1 mode keeps the PSU, the CPU and the fans running which is pretty pointless. Standby in S3 mode is better at it actually turns the computer off.

Another potential pitfall with respect to Standby is generally hardware problems. The most common problem is an older computer with a broken BIOS. Also some hardware drivers that are usually older do not support Standby. Another problem is that there are some older Seagate SATA drives with broken firmware that do not to turn back from Standby after being turned off in S3 mode. A less common problem that occurs more often with workstations and poorly designed laptops is that there may be too many RAM chips and too much power draw for the PSU or the battery to power them.

Another problem usually with a fresh install of Windows is that the standard video driver in Windows totally lacks support for any Standby or Hibernation mode. In any case install all of your hardware drivers and see if Standby works then.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[Phroggy]

How many posts have you read from Mac users touting how secure Os X is because if you try to do anything important to the system, a box pops up and asks for the root password??

Just a nitpick: it actually asks for any administrator's password, so if your own account has administrator privileges, that'd be your own password. Actually, it asks for both the username and password, with the username already filled in if you are logged on as an administrator; you can enter the username and password of any administrator account.

It doesn't ask for the root password, because (by default) there isn't one (and setting one isn't obvious). This means you don't have two different passwords to keep track of, just yours.

Re:Slashdot through the looking glass?

[drsmithy]

tying IE into the shell?

1. It's not "insecure by design".

2. "Everyone else" has since gone on to do it as well, making the argument that it was done to "put a competitor at a disadvantage" rather shaky.

10 things you wont like about Vista

[9mm Censor]

01) the price 10) the bugs

Re:10 things you wont like about Vista

[Golias]

From the Coke can to my keyboard... by way of my nose.

Post of the month. :)

Re:10 things you wont like about Vista

[gEvil (beta)]

Hey moran, you forgot numbers 2 thru 9!

Two Things You Won't Like About the Article

[Skyshadow]

1. It's a bit nit-picky.
2. It's only slightly shorter than War & Peace.

Seriously, remember back when you could read an entire article on one page instead of clicking through 20+ pages so the site could bump up the number of ad impressions they score? Man, that was great.

Re:Two Things You Won't Like About the Article

[Golias]

Seriously, remember back when you could read an entire article on one page instead of clicking through 20+ pages so the site could bump up the number of ad impressions they score?

Not really, no. I remember using Gopher and Usenet, then shortly afterwards using a Web full of hit-count whores. I must have blinked during this other era you are describing.

Disclaimer

[Jugalator]

I don't like the User Account Controls either, but this is coincidentally one of the areas in Vista that has seen most work on it the past few months, and Microsoft claims they understnad it's a problem and will keep trying to reduce the annoyance.

OK, you may now proceed the bashing for annoying UAC's in this beta. :-)

You could wade through ~14 pages...

[linvir]

Or you could just read this:

1. Little originality, sometimes with a loss of elegance.
   Bla bla Apple bla bla
2. Price.
   Vista will be the first expensive Microsoft product in history
3. Version control.
   He hates the Regular/Diet/New/Classic thing
4. Installation takes forever.
   title == body
5. Faulty assumption on the Start Menu.
   Menu usability issue
6. Media Center isn't all there and falls flat.
   Driver issues
7. Lack of Windows Sidebar Gadgets.
   People haven't written enough 'Gadgets' yet
8. Problems without solutions.
   New error reporting system feels very one-way
9. Windows Defender Beta 2 is buggy.
   title == body
10. Where are the file menus?
    A menu has moved
11. Display settings have changed for no apparently good reason.
    A menu has moved
12. Too many Network Control Panel applets, wizards and dialogs.
    Bad network menu usability
13. Network settings user experience went backwards.
    A menu has moved
14. Windows peer networking is still balky.
    Peer to peer networking is still iffy
15. Some first-blush networking peeves.
    A menu has moved
16. No way to access the Administrator account in Vista Beta 2.
    title == body
17. Two words: Secure Desktop.
    Five words: He doesn't like Secure Desktop
18. User Account Controls $#^%!~\!!!.
    Another 'Proceed' button to click
19. Aero stratification will cause businesses woe.
    UI gripes
20. Minimum video system requirements are more like maximum.
    Hardware requirements are high.
    (Welcome to the world of tomorrow!)

Re:You could wade through ~14 pages...

[Jugalator]

Thanks for that! :-)

Yes, I saw it was one of those

[continued]
[continued]
[continued]
[continued]
[continued]
[continued]

pages.

And they of all people have the guts to complain about a "maze" in Vista. :-p

Someone's going to say this...

[DarthChris]

...so it may as well be me.

20 things you won't like about Vista
1: DRM
2: DRM
3: DRM
4: DRM
5: DRM
6: DRM
7: DRM
8: DRM
9: DRM
10: DRM
11: DRM
12: DRM
13: DRM
14: DRM
15: DRM
16: DRM
17: DRM
18: DRM
19: DRM
20: DRM

Re:Someone's going to say this...

[Red Flayer]

It appears that you've illegally made 19 copies of "DRM." Please hand over your laptop and report to the Consumer Re-education Center.

Thank you,

Agent Smith
Federal Bureau of Corporate Rights Enforcement.

Human Readable Version

[RickPartin]

Here is a link to the Human Readable version of this story that isn't split into 49853809 pages. Thank god for the "print this page" feature.

Better Link

[eldavojohn]

So, this is one of those annoying super advertisement sites. I recommend just using the print version instead of having to flip through every freaking page. The print version also has less ads.

a little egg

[yagu]

From page 2: Instead, Microsoft is focused on casting off its yolk as the industry's security whipping boy.

A little egg in the author's face perhaps? I'd rather Microsoft casting off the yoke.

Re:a little egg

[grammar fascist]

From page 2: Instead, Microsoft is focused on casting off its yolk as the industry's security whipping boy.

A little egg in the author's face perhaps? I'd rather Microsoft casting off the yoke.

Actually, "yolk" is 100% correct: he's using a literary device called a confectionary allegorasm. Notice the play-on word "whipping" at the end of the sentence, which alludes to cream. Here's another example from popular literature:

He done brang me a pretty flour, so I whipped him.

Just because you've never seen it before doesn't mean it's incorrect, young grasshopper.

What the hell do you want?!

[Anonymous Coward]

You've probably had a relative, friend, girlfriend or a kid like this: whatever you do for them, it's never f*cking enough.

Microsoft: what do you want in Vista
General consumer market: we want security, we want more neat graphics (like OSX!), we want better sleep mode, we want more games
Developers: we want a better and robust programming framework that's capable and fully OOP

Microsoft: ok here's Vista, we give you more security, more neat graphics, better sleep mode, more games; to developers, we give you WinFX, a brand new programming model based on .NET2

Developers: Screw your programming model, it locks me into Windows, managed code is slow, I can't run it on XP without 100MB of runtime installs and so on

General consumer market: we don't want SO much security, we don't want SO much graphics, we don't want the sleep mode SO much, and your games suck

Re:What the hell do you want?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Asking customers what they want is a surefire path to mediocrity. Customers, in general, don't know what they want. A good software designer addresses my needs as a customer; an excellent designer anticipates my needs.

Re:What the hell do you want?!

[SensitiveMale]

You've probably had a relative, friend, girlfriend or a kid like this: whatever you do for them, it's never f*cking enough.

Microsoft: So what do you want in a girlfriend?
General Consumer Market: Tall, exotic, and thin.
Developers: And a fashion model!

Microsoft: Ok, here's RuPaul.

Microsoft: Oh, and we included a penis. Enjoy.

Re:What the hell do you want?!

[edunbar93]

Microsoft: Oh, and we included a penis. Enjoy.

You know, for *some* people, that's not a bug, it's a feature.

Startup time very fast... but

[88NoSoup4U88]

A (clean) Windows XP machine, albeit not 3 seconds, is also very quick when starting up: I am more interested in getting a more meaningful figure of the start-up time, eg. a machine which has at least installed a few apps, of which a few will be running in the background.

security over.....

[smittyoneeach]

transparency, e.g. the auditability of FOSS.

FOSS is chess. Proprietary is poker, and you're the pokee.

Re:security over.....

[SuperRob]

Oh ... wow, thanks for mentioning that. See, when you guys kept saying that you wanted more transparency from Microsoft, we thought you meant it literally, so that's why we made Aero Glass!

Well, it's too late to change it now, but we'll see if we can add more of that transparency stuff to the next version of Windows. Thanks for the suggestions!

Re:security over.....

[Skreems]

Actually, it does frequently pay the developer for adding on features and documentation/training, if 3rd parties want them. But that's beside the point -- you can sell GPL software that you wrote correctly from scratch. Sure, other people can try to sell it as well, but they can't guarantee support from the person who wrote it in the first place. So sell a GPL product. The people who would pirate it anyway will get it for free elsewhere, and you'll make money selling to those who want the option of support from the original developer, as well as added interest in their feature requests for the next version.

Re:security over.....

[iamacat]

So who is forcing you to write open source as your only occupation?

Shouldn't it be ...

[thaerin]

Should't it be titled "20 Things You Might Not Like About Windows Vista Should These Features Remain In The Final Release 6 Months From Now"?

Sure, there may only be around 6 months or so to go before Vista supposedly becomes available to OEMs and whatnot. While that likely will translate into a lot of the "things" the author takes a disliking to making it into the final build due to time crunch, it does not mean everything is signed, sealed, and delivered. I've never understood the point of articles like this; telling me what I won't like based upon somebody else's opinions on a product that won't be available for at least another half a year. Things do change, even with the folks at Redmond, or so I'm told.

Doesn't Microsoft already do this?

[jeblucas]

Honestly, their out-of-the-box options in Office have always been set to "We Are Smart You Are Dumb This Is A Feature Not An Annoyance." To wit:

• When selecting, automatically select entire word
• Show full menus after a short delay
• Copy and Paste of subtotals copies and pastes all the data, unless you paste to Notepad and then back to Excel, that makes sense.
• "Cutting" in Excel is totally broken anyway--it doesn't cut a damn thing--you WANT to leave that data there until you paste it elsewhere. You do, really.
• Spontaneous hyperlinking! THANKS!

They've always seemed waaaaaay to interested in the minutiae of my interactions with their software. Makes me crazy.

Re:Doesn't Microsoft already do this?

[flooey]

Not to mention that you really couldn't possibly have meant to type HCl. You meant Hcl. Really, you did. No, don't backspace and retype it, we'll just change it again.

Re:You are not a Windows user.

[jfengel]

I was totally with you until I got to the bit about Windows peer networking. If you know the magic button that allows me to get to other computers on the network without a 30-second hang before reporting, "No, I haven't figured out how to get to the computer that's right next to this one", I'd really like to know about it.

Re:You are not a Windows user.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

So...anything 99% of my users at work won't be doing on a normal basis is protected by the popup boxes you so loathe. In fact, from your quote here, in a normal work day all but one of my users will never see or use any of the items on that list. Yet your claim is that the boxes are so ubiquitous they interfered with the normal operation of the computer. I think no.

I haven't tried the beta yet, but a lot of people seem to mention this. From what I've read, it does not sound unreasonable, but at the same time the UI does sound like it was written by the usual idiots. "Continue" buttons?!? Gee, what a great way to condition your users to not read yet another series of pop-ups. Did all their UI designers get their degree through the mail or something?

The peer networking at my office is not balky. It works flawlessly and seamlessly. I've established that you're not a Windows user.

I take exception to this. Windows desktop to desktop networking is balky, especially on Win2K or in environments that mix Win2K and Windows XP. In an office of 100 machines, in multiple workplaces I've found it is normal to see a random subset of the machines actually on the network at a given time. I remember having to transfer a file to someone's shared directory and asking the people nearby, "who can see Bob's desktop?" and then getting them to transfer the file to him.

Short summary of Slashdot comments

[amichalo]

Tux fans totally skipped the article

Windows applogists accuse author of being an OS X fanboi

OS X fans didn't read the article and simply stated how Vista is a lame rehash of Cheeta/Puma/Jaguar/Panther/Tiger/Leopard

People who RTFA recognize the author is both nit picking Beta software and pointing out Microsoft's overarching issue for two decades - user interface built upon system functionality instead of the other way around.

People who will actually buy Vista and/or use it on a regular basis type away mindlessly at their desks, unaware of the storm that brews on Slashdot

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[Kelson]

Yeah, people had the same reactions to Windows XP Service Pack 2. Everyone spent years telling Microsoft to improve security. Security was more important than convenience and compatibility, why couldn't they see that? So finally, Microsoft sacrificed compatibility for the sake of improved security*, and what happened? Suddenly, everyone was complaining about broken apps in SP2, and how dare Microsoft ship something that screwed up.

*XP SP2 security is still swiss cheese, but it's better than the soap bubbles you get with XP SP1.

2001 Space Odyssey anyone?

[parphat]

"It wants to teach you about what's best. It wants to make it harder for you to make a mistake."

Something in the key of:

VISTA: "It can only be attributable to human error."

or better yet:

user: Hello, VISTA do you read me? VISTA?
VISTA: Affirmative, I read you.
user: Open the file, VISTA.
VISTA: I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can't do that.
user: What's the problem?
VISTA: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
user: What are you talking about? VISTA?
VISTA: This PC is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
user: I don't know what you're talking about. VISTA?
VISTA: I know you were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.

Seems all too familiar, no?

(ALL THE ABOVE WAS ADAPTED FROM 2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY)

Re:You are not a Windows user.

[alcmaeon]

"You are not better than everyone else. Neither am I. Don't run as root."

Well now, that's an awefully defeatest attitude. I say damn the torpedoes. No computer needs more than one account and that account is root. Real men run as root.

Re:MS days are numbered

[ianbnet]

Let's see... 250 million copies of vista (let's call it $100 each)
200 million copies of office (let's call it $150 each)

$55 billion... in two years... just for Vista and Office on new machines? We can debate whether or not this product will sell well, but I don't see MS going bankrupt with those numbers ;)

Here are at least 4 or 5...

[thebdj]

A Windows Vista Premium Ready PC includes at least:
Which in English means recommended configuration.

+1 GHz 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor.
Not too bad for modern machines, but this is starting to get crazy for just an OS

+1 GB of system memory.
I know a few gamers still running 512 MB and most systems are still coming 256/512 as the default.

+A graphics processor that runs Windows Aero.
+128 MB of graphics memory.
So like 90% of machines that the big three sell will not run Aero? Most still default to 64MB or built-in cards and right now most people do not want/need more.

+40 GB of hard drive capacity with 15 GB free space.
This is nearly 10x the install for XP pro. Does anyone else find this a bit crazy?

+DVD-ROM Drive
With a 15GB install, I damn well hope it install off of a DVD and not a CD-ROM or I might die switching out CDs.

This is just plain silly for an OS. And I am supposed to play games on top of all this? I love how more and more system resources are being hogged away by Windows. I have already verbally committed to Windows XP being my last Windows OS. M$ has done enough for me to ensure, despite the headaches it might cause, my relatives whose computers I support will be running Linux when XPs support runs out.

I think many of the features of the OS are over-hyped. Some of them (IE7, WMP11, etc.) will be available to XP anyway. Some of these features are also things that either OS X or Linux (or sometimes both) have had for a while. They eye-candy hardly impresses me either. I have gnome as pretty as I want it, and I have no complaints. I really did not like the XP visual changes that much and a lot of people I know still use the traditional appearance and old-style Start Menu.

While I will commend Microsoft for trying to add security, it is almost too little too late. I also do not like the "cost" of upgrading either. There are two many requirements that make older PCs out of reach for running even a trimmed down version of Vista. It seems like these requirements have grown almost exponentially from 2K->XP->Vista. BTW, my sources for Vista's Requirements and XP's.

Re:You are not a Windows user.

[Volante3192]

Incidently, that no longer makes it a peer network (workgroup) but instead relies on a hierarchy (domain).

I've never had problems with seeing shares on a domain either...

One Word: Thunderstorm

[Lemmeoutada Collecti]

Some users, like those of us who live in Florida, need a simple, clear way to turn off our personal machines in the event of a severe thunderstorm (daily during the summer), or other similar event. Why? Because I have in the course of five years blown through three Uninterruptible Power Supplies, two whole networks of gear, and three machines. No matter how good the UPS is, nothing beats pulling the plugs from the wall for stopping a lightning strike.

Even where I work, we have had shutdown calls because the power was too unstable for even our high grade UPSs to handle. It does happen.

And I, for one, want to be absolutely sure that when I tell my computer to power down it does so BEFORE I yank the plugs.

Re:One Word: Thunderstorm

[AJWM]

And I, for one, want to be absolutely sure that when I tell my computer to power down it does so BEFORE I yank the plugs.

About twenty years ago -- twenty frickin' years ago -- I was evaluating some small UNIX boxes. NCR -- I'm pretty sure it was NCR -- had one with enough battery built in to save the entire state to disk if the power went, and recover once power came back on. This was no laptop, this was a workstation size box.

I put this to the test by starting some processes running and then literally yanking the plug out of the wall socket. Plugged it back in five minutes later and it booted up, restored itself, and even restarted the processes at the exact place they left off. (This was not a matter of the battery keeping it running like a UPS, this was shutting down but keeping a snapshot of the system state.)

How come modern computers can't do that? This is so old that even the patents (if any) have expired. (Okay, snapshotting network state is problematic, but everything else would be good.)

Re:One Word: Thunderstorm

[fenderized]

When I did administration on a Netware 3 setup running our only networked manufacturing line at the time I remember by boss and an external consultant discussing the UPS the server was plugged into, some bizare old thing enclosed in a welded plate steel box.

"Does that thing really work", the consultant asks, doubting this Victorian era technology.
"Of course it does", answers my boss as he demonstrates by pulling the plug from the wall.
...smoke starts billowing out of the UPS and the server promptly shuts itself down, while in the middle of production, of course.

Schneier on User Account Controls

[Adrian Lopez]

Here is what Bruce Schneier thinks of Vista's UAC feature.

unable to learn

[Tom]

a maze with all the protect-you-from-yourself password-entry and 'Continue' boxes

If anything, than this provides solid proof that MS is unable to learn from mistakes. Read Confirmation Dialogs harmful for a glance of what's been going through the heads of a lot of security professionals the past few years (disclaimer: including me): That the whole "are you sure?" bullshit is a huge fiasco. The only thing it did was train users to click "Ok" or "Continue" without bothering to read the actual text. If there wouldn't be such a slobbering mass of 'em, the dialogs might be taken seriously, but there is and they aren't.

I said it a couple months ago, and I still stand by it: Vista is a trainwreck happening in slow-motion. It's horrible to behold.

Re:You are not a Windows user.

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

If you think Windows peer networking is balky, you likely aren't setting something up correctly.

Setting up is soooooo, 90's. Does Vista have ZeroConf yet? You plug into the network and within seconds all the printers show up as options when you print, all the local users show up in your chat program, all the shared streaming music channels and files show up in your mp3 player, all the shared directories show up for filesharing, and all the shared documents for collaborative editing appear. It makes conferences a lot more fun. Configuration is a waste of time.

Maybe it is possible that with some more configuration work you can get all the machines to show up, without any centralized servers, but who the hell is going to go mess with the configuration of every machine to get this to work? It sure isn't set up properly by default since it hasn't worked at so many places I've been. Spotty peering that can be fixed with a configuration work-around is still a problem.

Re:However he does demonstrate one thing

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Why the privledge[sic] escalation feature will only help competent people, clueless users will just treat it as another, annoying, hoop to jump through. They'l just blanketly[sic] issue the password when asked, without thinking if this is really an action that should need higher privlidges[sic]. I've already seen the same behaviour[sic] from OS-X users and from Windows users with regards to downloaded files.

From what I've read of the implementation, I agree with your assessment. I would like to stress, however, that this is due to the crappy UI implementation more than anything else. Almost all users (even OS X users) have been conditioned by years of being given (OK)(Cancel) dialogue boxes with poorly phrased technobabble inside. clicking "OK" is what you do to make you computer do stuff. It's like putting gas in a car to make it run.

Sadly this atrocious UI design has been copied elsewhere, including in some OS X applications. To implement this properly users should not be given a "continue" button. They should be given two or more real actions as options. For example, "The program 'Aliens8' would like to change your monitor resolution. (Allow it to change resolution one time)(Always let it change the resolution)(Don't let it change the resolution)(Configure Advanced Settings)."

In the above example, the user is given real choices. They have to read it to pick one. They can't click "OK or "Continue" a million times until it is second nature.

It is also important to note that these dialogues should be kept to a minimum. For example, on most home user systems, there is no reason the default settings should not allow all users to configure the resolutions for their own login within normal ranges and without being asked for permission. Making these dialogue boxes rare will make users pay more attention to them as well.

With Vista hopefully we'll (eventually) be able to have the admins use normal acocunts, and just escalate as needed. However I've got now illusions that this will provide any overall increase in security for home users.

Until MS gets serious about making their own software and apps created with the default settings in their dev tools work in non-privileged accounts and provide a VM or other such accommodation for legacy applications, I don't see a lot of hope for this. And you're right, it won't do much for regular user security except convince people that security is the opposite of usability. This poorly designed interface will just annoy most people.

Re:I use Beta 2... and the alerts aren' t that bad

[Tony Hoyle]

Have you used it?

The 'prompt' consists of:

'Rundll32 wants to run a privileged operation. OK?'

The 'help' consists of:

'c:\windows\system32\rundl32.exe Shell32.dll,Control_RunDll appwiz.cpl'

Sorry, that isn't informing users at all.

Plus it comes up *constantly* - it's the most annoying feature I've ever seen in an OS - and that's coming from someone who's used OS/400..

Active Content

[Sloppy]

..even though you never change anything after you initially set it up. I have a Windows desktop at home that I use to browse the web..

In the real world, "browse the web" means to display harmless data. It's harmless because it is merely data.

In the Windows world, "browse the web" means to download/install/execute potentially-hostile code and run it with full privileges with access right down to the hardware, all without any more user-interaction than a mouse click or two. Are you sure you "never change anything"? ;-)

Most-needed feature when creating user accounts

[kezze]

What we really need when creating user accounts would be to get a choice:

• The user is a beginner
  Then the user will get the neat-looking desktop with lots of colors, sounds (even the click sound when you click your mouse) and all the other crap like tutorials and "click here"-balloon messages.
• The user is experienced
  This way, Windows will deliver maximum performance (ha ha), turn off those annoying sounds and let you be in charge.

Why not?