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Oklahoma 'Games As Porn' Bill Now Law
simoniker writes "Oklahoma Governor Brad Henry has signed into law the State-specific Bill HB30004. The bill redefines a list of items, such as hardcore pornography, deemed harmful to minors to include videogames which use 'inappropriate violence'. The new Oklahoma law is due to come into effect from November 1st. The story notes: 'Despite being one of the more draconian anti-games bills put before a State senate, HB30004 has faced limited opposition, with apparently little concern being given to the consistent problems other similar bills have faced from legal challenges.'"
I wonder if this is just another impress-the-voters measure passed to make the old white men in suits look good, which will get quietly struck down as unconstitutional when it ever actually comes into play in court.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Better keep the kids away from the evening news then. It's a violent world out there, so we'd better keep them as far away from reality as possible.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
I'm pretty sure linking to a report on this on a site called GamaSutra doesn't exactly help the cause any...
This guy's the limit!
This is Oklahoma we are talking about. As someone that lived there, I can attest to the true backwardness of the state. The state is run by clueless demagogues who fall to the pressure of the Baptist church. Take a look at these frightening statistics
Ultimately this will lead to Oklahoman flocking to Texas to buy video games as well as their porn (since that is illegal too).
I lived in Oklahoma for 5 years. Now I live in urban Houston, Texas. Oklahoma makes Texas look like a liberal oasis. At least people here have more of a "let live" policy than "God hates you".
Yes! I listen to NYC Speedcore and do math at 3AM. I suggest you try it too.
Interesting that by wording the bill that way, that means that they're recognizing a class of "appropriate violence". I wonder how that's defined...
The limited opposition stems largely from the fact that there are no "hot spots" of game development anywhere in Oklahoma, and the fact that videogames aren't the point of a law like this. It's all about pandering to voters, and there are plenty of older voters who aren't exactly well-informed about videogame violence up for grabs in Oklahoma. This isn't about surviving a court challenge, which it probably won't. It's about "Protecting the Children" to seem more connected to the interests of average voters against the Evil Media Industry of the decadent east and west coasts than to the corporations which fund the legislators' campaigns, which clearly aren't the videogame companies.
I would say that a lot of R rated movies contain "inappropriate violence", yet I don't see them categoriezed with pornography.
Look, all they're saying is that minors should have adult supervision when acquiring material that could be damaging to young minds.
Whether you like it or not, and whether or not you agree with the specific cutoffs or punnishments present in this bill, young minds are impressionable.
I'm not saying that every kid who plays Grand Theft Auto is going to go out and relive those experiences on the street, but I assert there are some kids who have not yet developed a sense of right and wrong, and for whom, exposure to this sort of material may establish certain Antisocial (in the psychological sense, follow the link before disagreeing with me) patterns in the developing mind.
I don't agree that this should be a felony offense (as this law seems to make it? This article says so, but I can't cooberate since the article doesn't include any text from the bill, nor a link to the bill). But there are kids for whom this stuff would be damaging until they have a better sense of the world established. I know; my wife works with them, and she also works with the kids who got access to violent and/or highly pornographic content at the wrong stage of their psychological development.
All this law is saying (and those proposed which are like it), is that kids need adult oversight to get access to this material.
Slay a dragon... over lunch!
Oklahoma has one of the worst legislation faculty in the county. Also, their salary/compensation for senate/house memebers are realtively higher comapred to other states in similar economic situations (not that the economy is HORRIBLE here, but the cost of living is low, but they get paid higher than perhaps some states that a bit higher cost of living).
couple that with this being THE Bible Belt (we have a many churches as we do convenient stores, and we have a LOT of convienient stores), poor education, and crappy voter turnouts... the government does almost as they damn well please.
What they are doing with video games now, they tried with comic book stores and game (RPG) shops 10-15 years ago. Once they started creating too much of a ruckus with citizens (the OK goverment, that is), that crap eventually got beaten down into obscurity. Now we hear VERY little about it any more (probably now people with the jobs and some sort of income and intelligence either were more likely to 1) still play RPGs and read comics OR 2) at least USED to, but not anymore, but understand those who do OR 3) didn't play or read, but never saw the big deal around any controversy attributed to such mediums AND they have some srot of voting influence these days)
Luckily things DO get thrown out as unconsitutional... but until then, OK will be dicks about it.
Show a naked breast -- instant 16. Chop the head of people -- 12, unless lots of blood gushes, in which case 16.
Blowjob ? 18 for sure ! Beating random people up with a baseball-bat and getting points for style ? 16.
Unless you're a religious nutcase completely locked up about sex, the rating-system is no substitute for making up your own damn opinion. But I guess that's too much work for some parents.
"...or depicts lead characters who resort to violence freely." Since you can't use diplomacy with Bowser... that makes Mario as naughty as Beastality. Broken?
I heard an article on NPR this morning, about Afghan Culture Gap Widens. In it, they mentioned that people in the City want nice shirts, Television, and a modern lifestyle. They said that the people in the rural areas want things to revert to the old ways, and make their decisions based on religeous teachings. This got me thinking -- that is what we have here in the US, and I am sure it is a common argument throughout time: the old vs. the new.
Also, coming from Pennsylvania, I know the Amish are a peaceful lot. I understand that they keep to their own, and don't meddle with other people's affairs. I thought I read that they generally vote Republican, but I didn't see it in the Wikipedia article about the Amish.
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
I wonder whether or not the Christian fundamentalist unbeliever-killing Left Behind: Eternal Forces game is "appropriate" violence. Does this look any better than GTA? At least Doom and Quake are about fighting demons and mutants. This "convert or kill" game is a far cry from Veggie Tales, and very telling of the state of some religions in the US that churches refuse to denounce it.
I finally understand the blinking neon sign! blink ARCADE blink ARCADE blink ARCADE
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
With increasing conservatism
Yeah, because long standing "liberal" figureheads such as the Clintons, Diane Feinstein and Chuckie Schumer would never ask that legislation concerning media and public decency standards be considered. [cough] [cough]
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
So, not even worrying about the whole freedom of speech bit, how does one know that the game is going to be deemed inappropriate and should not be sold BEFORE they are taken to court over it, seeing as how it appears to be based wholy on opinion and no hard standards such as the clearly marked ESRB ratings? How does one determine what the average person 18 years or older considers ok/not ok? Are they going to call everyone up and do a phone survey for each case? I hardly think the prosecution, or even probably the judge and/or jury, are going to be representative of the overall average opinion.
I wonder why they neglected to include governments that use 'inappropriate violence' in the bill.
This definition considers inappropriate any game which "lacks serious literary, scientific, medical, artistic or political value"
So does this include Frozen Bubble?
All they have to do is get THE BIBLE listed as porn under this law, with all the begatting and smoting going on, it's kind of like an ancient GTA, in fact, Rockstar should use it as a source, :)
The kung-foo of my invisible being is better than the kung-foo your invisible being.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
It means killing 'terrists', of course! We all know that's the only current acceptable form of violence. ;P
theyll be plowing their fields with oxen in a dozen years.
considering the lower then average income in the midwest and the price of gas i agree. also, keeping people poor and stupid is easy when they are already poor.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
Oh yeah, someone needs to put test the bible against this law and see what it rates... killings, mutilations, rape, slavery, incest, all the fun stuff.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. Emo Philips
Well, actually the reason hillary is blurting out such 'regulation' crap is increasing conservatism too.
As the public seemed to be increasingly conservative in the last elections, they are trying to capitalize on those.
Because, to they games & internet is something new, and the democrats do not have a definite stance, it seems like they can exhibit conservativism there and noone would notice - it wouldnt be a let go of liberal stances similar to abortion etc.
But, ignorance is bliss, they say. Had Hillary known that the gamer crowd is not comprised of 12 year olds but hordes of 20-45 adults that have lived by the IT revolution, and they are almost all liberal, she wouldnt be sleeping easy.
Read radical news here
I wouldnt be too opposed to conservatism in terms of 'keeping to themselves', had it not been a resource easy to exploit by power hungry politicians.
Read radical news here
I would imagine that there are probably at least 200,000 people within a 5 mile radius of where I live. Back in Oklahoma, the population of the city was about 100,000 and that was when college was in session and that was the entire 20 or so mile radius of the city. Yeah, it's a bit unfair to compared with a city of 4 or 5 million to 100K.
Yes! I listen to NYC Speedcore and do math at 3AM. I suggest you try it too.
It's the 14th Amendment that extended the BoR prohibitions to the states. And that wasn't even decided till a Supreme Court case in 1925 (Gitlow v. New York).
But even then, they didn't rule that the entire BoR applies to the states. For instance, they have never ruled on whether the Second Amendment applies to the states.
But, ignorance is bliss, they say. Had Hillary known that the gamer crowd is not comprised of 12 year olds but hordes of 20-45 adults that have lived by the IT revolution, and they are almost all liberal, she wouldnt be sleeping easy.
Can you be so sure of that (gamers being liberals)? Do you have any source to quote on this? Not to question your facts but the gamers I know of voting age seem fairly conservative. I guess it is a good polling question to get an idea of the demographics on this issue.
Frankly I think the gaming industry needs a structure similar to the movie industry with some enforcement of age restrictions involving M and AO games. This is their best bet to self regulation in the face of this movement. For now the game rating seems little more than a recomendation.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Take it as like this : the gamers & internet crowd are at least definite to be liberal on the matters related to gaming and internet.
This is the fact that hillary is investing in the wrong cause, the wrong way.
Read radical news here
Seattle, Washington
The city council passes a resolution to ban all dust-bowl-related games or related states as being "full of inappropriate ignorance". Councilor Steve Krebs was quoted as saying, "I mean, really, you have these huge flat states that are apparently so drab and lifeless that people have to oppress each other based on what invisible sky father they believe in. That sort of thing has no place in twenty-first-century society, and we've got to protect the children!"
Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, and Nebraska were not available for comment, as they became lost in their own damn acreage.
crappy triceratops
Before the Civil War, there was strong arguments for the idea that the limitations on the federal government (as noted in the 1st Amendment "Congress shall make no law") did not apply to the state governments. The state governments could theoretically pass laws abridging the freedoms of its citizens that the federal government could not. The 10th Amendment is in fact the strongest source of support for that idea. A restriction barring the federal government from doing something is not "power delegated to" it -- it's the opposite.
After the Civil War, the 14th Amendment was passed specifically to prevent Southern states from passing laws that discriminated against blacks in the way that the federal government could not. This is known as the Equal Protection Clause (and has sadly been used to defend the rights of corporations far more than it has been used to defend the rights of minorities). It reads like this:
This is the clause that extends limitations on the powers of the federal government to the state governments and prevents the abridgement of free speech by them.
However, pornography and obscenity have long been ruled by the Supreme Court as having lesser protection that political speech. The case Miller v. California set forth a test to determine pornography that has been used ever since. Justice Burger in his opinion wrote the following:
Change "sexual conduct" in part (b) to "violence to people" and you've probably got a bill that would survive a Supreme Court decision. Whether or not the list of barred things is overly broad and violates the second test is where it's most likely to stand or fall. The third test is where a lot people think that works will escape, but as Burger says in the sentence immediately following this test, "We do not adopt as a constitutional standard the 'utterly without redeeming social value" test of Memoirs v. Massachusetts.'" You can read more about obscenity and the 1st Amendment here.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
It would certainly be a more memorable way to hit upon the various parts of the bible. Even better if they worked hard to make it keep to the chronology stated in the bible. Maybe even have multiple "campaigns" : the 40-year Moses campaign (OK more like 45 or more ;)), a campaign for after the hebrew nation was well established, etc. :)
:)
/reading/ it. (though think about it: No need for a strategy guide. Don't know what is suppsoed to happen next? "Try reading chapter 12, verses 23-40!" ;))
The amount of content available actually seems pretty massive. If Rockstar made it, I would actually expect its quality to be pretty good, and would probably buy it.
It would sure beat
Whenever this argument comes up, inevitably someone will claim that in the USA films ratings are government regulated. This is not true. In the USA films are rated by the film industry just like videogames are rated by the videogame industry. This is exactly why such anti-videogame laws are not only unconstitutional, but are also nothing more than moral panics. If such laws pass, videogames would be the only medium in the USA that are regulated by law.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Porn downloading amongst Teens and pre-teens in Oklahoma is down... When asked why many young men and boys have slowed their consumption at the fountain of sex that is the internet, the boys generally respond with: "We need some of that bandwidth to pirate games now". State legislators couldn't be reached for comment, as they were busy receiving emergency treatment for a self inflicted pedal bullet wounds.
Of course she'd still sleep easy. The majority of the 25-40 year old crowd can't find the time to GET OFF THEIR FAT ASSES AND VOTE!!! So why should it concern her in the least? Hey comments pleased a larger body of voters than it pissed off. There is no fear of reprisal from people that don't vote.
The 10th amendment allowed states to do whatever they pleased. The amendments were ONLY applied to the federal government, not the states.
The 14th amendment was the only way that the first 8 could be applied to the states, before then they couldn't. That was the way it was setup.
The idea was you could move to states that had the level of freedom that you desired. Some states were religious led, others totally free. This of course all ended after the Civil War.
... And stupid. Being a moderate in an area that has enclaves of extremist Liberalism in a quagmire of Neocon hate and loathing is very disheartining.
Actualy, article 6 says something like "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding." in it.
This means that all laws, treaties and anything else passed in the United State must comply with the constitution. If the supream law of the land says a felon cannot be president, then no state can pass a law saying he can. Simularly, if the constitution or a federal law for that matter says it is legal to do something then the states cannot pass a law restricting it. Imagine a federal law or even a clause in the amendment that allowed alcohol ot be legal again, imagine it saying you can drink unlimited quantities on saturday but cannot get drunk on sunday. Then a state passing a law that says no drinking on saturday. Of course the supream law of the land step in and allows thqat behavior.
The 14th amendment was neccesary because some states and people were trying to cliam minorities were not human or citizens and were a lesser class of people. While achiving everything you said, it is basicly redundet in it's purpose except that it defines who americans are and set fourth specific instructions forbiding the discrimination on someone who is a citizen. It also mentions states specificly but those states were already subject to the supream law of the land.
Surely, according to the religious nutcases, the min. age for seeing nekkid bewbage should be 0 ... since G-d meant for breastfeeding to happen and all that... :-P
-b.
Sadly, no. Both sides of the coin are increasingly happy to regulate speech, they just use different justifications for doing so.
I always swore I'd start voting libertarian if they'd stop being so crazy. But last year I came to the realization that Democrats and Republicans are just as crazy, it's just a brand of craziness I'm used to. So, you know, go libertarians, rah rah rah.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
No mention of hacking web servers and forcing them to serve "Installation Successful" boilerplate to hardworking municipal appointees?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
What shooter, first-person or otherwise, doesn't fall into one of those categories? Duck Hunt?
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
I like big guns and I cannot lie
You other gamers can't deny
That when a target walks in with those big and pointy teeths
You need a BFG at the least.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
Anyone from Rockstar reading this, please get it contact with Mel Gibson and make this game! He took a snuff film and managed to make everyone in the country take their children and elderly relatives too it, think about what he could do for video games!
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Just checking if these people are for real or just the same old hypocrites who'd drown thier mother if they could use the corpse to buy themselves an extra vote or line thier pockets: Does this bill include provisions to block MOVIES with explicit violence as well?
Yes, all laws must comply with every provision of the constitution. And since the text of the 1st Amendment begins with "Congress shall make no law...", a state can go right ahead and pass a law establishing a religion or abridging freedom of speech. Because the 1st Amendment just says that Congress shall make no such laws.
Just read the Wikipedia entry, man. It describes the 1833 Supreme Court case where they specifically ruled that the Bill of Rights doesn't protect against the actions of the states (except where the states are specifically mentioned.)
It wasn't till the 14th Amendment that the BoR protected against states' actions, and the 14th Amendment was not at all redundant in that respect.
Would we run into this same problem if someone created a "violent" video game that was based on the bible? I mean there are parts of that book that are pretty grotesque.
What if someone made a game where you were Samson, and you harvested and sacrificed the foreskins of the Philistines? I'm pretty sure that something similar to this would happen.This space reserved for administrative use.
Why is it, that every time I hear the words "Oklahoma" and "legislation" in the news, that I have an internal dialogue that goes somewhere along the lines of "Yee haw! Anotha' victory fo' keepin' tha Bad Influenses of tha Autsahd Wuhrld away fram oua cheeld-run! Let's go shoot oua shotguns inna air ta sellebrate!"
In all seriousness, it seems that their solution to any of the state's many social problems is "More Religion!" Because after all, it's worked so well up to this point.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
...I hope to see this, as well described, draconian law shot down by either the Oklahoma courts or any other method as I don't wish to see anything similar being implemented here in my state. As a software developer, although not a game developer, it would be easy to see this as an obstruction of my freedom of speech from the point view of a game developers responsible for such gaming software. As digital technology advances the internet and software have became more and more a method of [b]content delivery[/b], they're not always "the content" or an "object" as many laws have sought to treat as.
The cable versions would most likely be rated NC-17. Growing up I was told that X, XX, and XXX represented different degrees of "hard core", but there actually is no XXX rating. The MPAA's scale goes up to X-rated, and anything "beyond" that is either marketing fluff by the porn industry or a sticky keyboard. ;-)
Boundless Expansion, Self-Transformation, Dynamic Optimism, Intelligent Technology, Spontaneous Order- BEST DO IT SO!
I just don't agree that the adult variant is all that "harmful", infact I have a hard time saying where the supposed "harm" in seeing a naked breast resides.
Thanks for the references - I've been arguing essentially the same thing on this and other forums, that people don't understand the difference between "Congress shall make no law..." and "There shall be no law..."
Stupid sexy Flanders.
No kidding? Couldn't you tell that my tongue was firmly in cheek on that one?
Cheers,
-b.
I suggest everyone write the tard and inform him of his bad judgement :-)
fred@fredmorganforcongress.com
http://wrexallen.blogspot.com/
I know it's best to just walk away, but I can't let that stand.
This is the part that needs to be amended. This helps the current 'invasion' by our neighbors to the south. It should not be allowed that illegal aliens can run across the border to drop a kid in the US, and have that kid automatically be a US citizen.
I don't see this as a problem. I've personally always thought that countries that put strong limits on who can become a citizen are backwards and xenophobic. Call it racist; call it nationalist -- whatever. It's an "-ist" mentality, and I despise people who divide and exclude. What you're proposing isn't nearly as reactionary as the policies of countries that allow multiple generations of people born, raised, and grown old in the same country to still not be citizens, but it's a step in that direction, and I think it's a step away from the grand American tradition of acceptance, equality, and growth.
Our country has grown great on the back of immigrants. From the Irish to the Chinese to now the Mexicans, our country has grown stronger and more interesting. Immigrants built the foundations of our economy from railroads to factories in the 19th century. They gave us holidays, unique architecture, and music and arts that have enriched American culture. Almost all the great American foods come from either non-Anglican immigrants or from slaves.
I don't fear the "Invasion from the South" anymore than I fear "the Yellow Peril." It's just a new wave of Americans to be (if we'll let them). There is no such thing as a "true-blood" American. We're all immigrants and that's what makes us special. We have enjoyed having only a future and not the baggage of a past for many generations.
I tell you something -- sometimes I value the patriotism of a person who sacrificed to come and be an American more than someone who just lucked into the position. At least they came to love America by conscious choice instead of by just not shopping around for other options. If someone so loves America that they'd give their child the gift of an American citizenship that they themselves cannot so easily get, then I personally welcome them with open arms, and I find it shameful that you would turn your back on 200 years of American progress to shut them out.
It's the people that look forward to America with the future in mind that will make this nation great and not those who pine for the past and resist change.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Firstly isn't it annoying that violence and sex get put together in the minds of those seeking to censor everything? They are two very different things. If you confuse the two then you really need psychiatric help and exclusion orders from the sex that you are attracted to. Secondly the obsession with pornography is annoying because it sustains itself on the myth that sex is somehow bad. To paraphrase the great Bill Hicks we're all here because someone had sex. I just wish these up-tight anti-porn campaigners would take it to heart and stop having sex so evolution can do us all a favor and naturally select this idiocy out. Sadly hypocrisy and their tendency to treat women as property to rape for child rearing (hence their confusion of violence and sex) lets them procreate. So perhaps we should make more games fitting the porn label? More sex less violence. Just to make it clear. I suggest a game with mutant rabbits out-breeding up-tight puritanical shrew creatures for world domination.
I have no problem with new people coming to the US from anywhere...as long as they want to become US citizens and join in and contribute to the great melting pot that is the US. Learn to celebrate and contribute to our culture, this also includes learning English as a language. I just don't like uncontrolled, illegal immigrants coming over and becoming a burdon on our already stretched social saftey nets and schools.
Controlled and legal immigration is all I'm wanting. I do think, however, that the US really needs to restructure the legal immigration system to make it a bit easier, more streamlined and take less time...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........