Microsoft Clarifies Backward Compatibility Stance

kukyfrope writes "Peter Moore, Head of Interactive Entertainment at Microsoft, has clarified previous comments about gamers not being concerned with backward compatibility on the Xbox 360, claiming his words were 'misconstrued' and reiterating Microsoft's goal to make every Xbox game backward compatible. 'It's quite simply not that we don't care about backward compat[ibility]. Boy, do we care about backward compat[ibility]... We're going to get darn close to that stated goal of every title done,' Moore promised."

Comments

at this rate

[underwhelm]

I hope they're working on some universal code that will support a bunch of games with one release. This nickel-dime approach will have them finished with the library in about 2037.

Meantime, tons of popular XBox games (Platinum Hits) aren't supported on the 360. As far as native games go, if I don't want to have a chick fight, drive, or play a sport, I don't have much reason to turn on my 360 at all.

Either one would please me: extensive backwards compatibility or a worthwhile native library. Right now the 360 offers neither. I just hope one or the other happens before I get bored with Burnout.

Re:at this rate

[geders]

Meantime, tons of popular XBox games (Platinum Hits) aren't supported on the 360. As far as native games go, if I don't want to have a chick fight, drive, or play a sport, I don't have much reason to turn on my 360 at all.

Why did you buy a Xbox 360 then?

Re:at this rate

[underwhelm]

It was a gift.

Re:at this rate

[jasko]

Reasons to turn on your 360?

Fight Night
Call of Duty
Oblivion.

Re:at this rate

[Babbster]

As far as native games go, if I don't want to have a chick fight, drive, or play a sport, I don't have much reason to turn on my 360 at all.

I hear that. If only they'd release games like Oblivion, Condemned: Criminal Origins, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter or Hitman: Blood Money. Maybe they just need to come out with something like Kameo, Gun, Final Fanasy XI or a Tomb Raider game.

For anyone without a nice PC gaming rig, the Xbox 360 probably has something to make a gamer turn it on. For the people WITH a nice PC gaming rig, there will probably be many more good reasons to do so coming during the remainder of the year.

Compared to the PS2 at the same point in its life, the 360's game lineup is kick-ass...

Re:at this rate

[Control Group]

I want BC as much as anyone and more than many (my XBox is on indefinite loan to a friend of mine), but don't sell the library of 360-native games quite so short. CoD2, Kameo, Oblivion, and Tomb Raider are all quality titles that don't fall into the categories you named. And if you expand to XBLA, you can toss Geometry Wars, Marble Blast Ultra, and Wik on the list as fantastic games.

It's not exactly a selection measured in Libraries Of Congress (or even VW Beetles), but there are good games that aren't sports/driving/fighting out there.

Re:at this rate

[Control Group]

Compared to the PS2 at the same point in its life, the 360's game lineup is kick-ass...
Not to post contrariwise to what I already said in this thread, but - while you're certainly right in terms of native games, the PS2 did have the advantage of playing all (or at least, virtually all) PS1 games. It made the game lineup seem meatier than it actually was, but that's really all that matters: how many (good) games can you sit down at your console and play?

(Note that this comes from a guy who neither had nor wanted a PS1 or a PS2)

Re:at this rate

[Babbster]

The Xbox 360 has a similar advantage, at least for people who never owned an Xbox. There are many good games already on the backwards compatibility list. While it's obvious that there were far more PS1 titles, you could still get several months of good gaming (assuming one playing a relatively reasonable number of hours per day) out of the current list.

Of course, the truth is that had I never owned an Xbox I wouldn't even consider buying a 360 right now (I still haven't) and would instead just buy the Xbox. While it doesn't have the lineup of the PS2 (what could?), again, there are more than enough good Xbox games to keep a gamer busy for a long time.

Re:at this rate

[republican gourd]

My reviews of the 360's current lineup are thus...

Oblivion
Runs horribly slow compared to PC version... (loading...)

Condemned: Criminal Origins
Struck me as too dark to play during the daytime, but I didnt play it long.

G.R.A.W
Ok I guess. I don't much like FPS's anymore, they're all the same.

Hitman
Haven't played this one, but the series have been going downhill so I'm unlikely to bother.

Kameo
Sucked. Really, really incredibly lame.

Gun
Sucked *hardcore*

Final Fanasy XI
Haven't played, admittedly.

Tomb Raider
Sucked. Again.

Re:at this rate

[pjotrb123]

> Reasons to turn on your 360?

I always thought the reasons were...

No girl
No friends*
No life

* except maybe a few other game addicts (many of which you probably have never met IRL)

Although in such a case, reasons and consequences usually are hard to distinguish.
So mod me Flamebait... That does not keep you from knowing it is all too often true!

Re:at this rate

[Kell_pt]

> Reasons to turn on your 360?

- You're under 18, and have plenty of spare time
- Your friends come over and play with you
- Your girlfriend also plays
OR
- You're still learning to handle girls, but can take the distraction

So, put that in perspective. I was a Spectrum addict when I was 12-16 (and friends came over), I was a 386 addict up to 18, and I'm 28 now, with my 3rd long term relationship (and hopefully the last one) and an healthy dose of attempts in between.

Playing games is good for you. :)

Re:at this rate

[MBGMorden]

You can't really claim PS1 games as part of the PS2 library. Those games were older releases that we'd been able to play for years already on the Playstation. Every single person I knew that bought a Playstation 2 already owned the Playstation 1, so all the backwards compatibility did was allow us to put the PS1 in storage, effectively just making the entertainment center less cluttered (I also liked the tray of the PS2 compared to the lid of the PS1, as you can squeeze it into a smaller space since the lid didn't need to open up). With this in mind, backwards compatibility was certainly a welcomed addon by me, but it certainly didn't have any effect in my buying the system.

Re:at this rate

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who bitches about their free game console online should be living the old tool drawer.

Yes, because it was a gift from microsoft. Idiot.

Re:at this rate

[BoaZaur]

I hope they're working on some universal code that will support a bunch of games with one release. This nickel-dime approach will have them finished with the library in about 2037.

They will never do that because than Hackers can find backdoors in the emulation layer. They take the games, one by one, and make a special identifying code that makes sure this is the game and no other alien code.
2037 it is.

Re:at this rate

[ClamIAm]

Hold on a sec. CoD2, Oblivion, and Tomb Raider are all available on PC (Tomb Raider being availble on all the consoles). Wik is also availble on PC. Geometry wars can be supplanted by this guy (and all those are opensourced). Kameo isn't all that different from what Rare did in the N64 days.

I don't own a High-def TV, so my 3.5-year-old PC can basically match the graphical output of the 360. The games so far have basically been Xbox++, with higher-def textures. The games I listed at the top pretty much shoot down your argument that there's a super 360-only library. What I'm saying here is that there isn't much of an argument for me to spend $400.

Except for Table Tennis. That game looks amazing. And not because of the graphics.

Re:at this rate

[Zediker]

Tell me, what are these 'girls' you speak of? Is it some trendy new slang, perhaps for an intoxicating herb?

Re:at this rate

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you know, just play two of them on a real gaming system...a PC!

Re:at this rate

[Control Group]

All true; I wasn't making a case for buying the 360 as compared to a PC, merely pointing out that if you have a 360, there are several quality games that don't fit the genres named.

That being said, I take issue with your assessments of Kameo and GW. If we only count games as quality games if they're completely dissimilar to other games that are available, the worldwide library of quality games for all platforms ever drops by several orders of magnitude.

And, that being said, I won't make a case for the 360's lineup of exclusives being fantastical by any stretch. Personally, I like the HD, I like the controller, I like the interface, and I love XBox Live. Together with my fundamental loathing for the PS controller, and the paucity of games available on the PS2 that I really want to play (yes, this may very well be just from lack of exposure, but I've never wanted to play GTA, Metal Gear, or Final Fantasy...though I admit I'm considering ganking a friend's PS2 when he gets a PS3 so I can play Kingdom Hearts, Katamary Damacy, and Shadow Of the Colossus), I bought a 360.

But we've drifted rather far from my original point, which was simply that games outside those genres do exist for the 360.

Re:at this rate

[Control Group]

How about: your fiancee doesn't play video games (except Diablo II and Guild Wars, go figure), but loves back seat gaming when you play Oblivion?

(Not that I want to brag about my fiancee complaining once that I don't play enough Oblivion, or anything... ;))

Re:at this rate

[Lobo42]

You're bitter. I don't even have an Xbox 360, but if I did I doubt I would hate *all* of those games as much as you seem to.

Re:at this rate

[underwhelm]

Well, this is where some of my complaint comes from. My fiancee would play with me, but she doesn't want to simulate chick fights, driving, or sports (or play an FPS, I should add). The current library is 100% testosterone-fueled. Okay, except Geometry wars.

If there were better legacy support, the odds would be much improved that there's a game out there we can both enjoy. For instance, I'm excited that the upcoming update will let us play Lego Star Wars.

YES!!

[d-fi.nz]

All my old Xbox games should be playable on the Xbox 360 by 2015..... maybe

Re:YES!!

[cbiltcliffe]

All my old Xbox games should be playable on the Xbox 360 by 2015

I doubt they're going to be spending too much time and effort on game porting libraries in the year they release Vista.......

*ducks*

Emulation?

[strider2k]

I am not knowledgeable in game programming nor the complexities of the xbox and 360 architecture, but couldn't something be done similar to how pirates create those emulation programs to play snes, etc onto a computer? Or is the architecture so complex that such a one-to-one conversion isn't possible.

Re:Emulation?

[tepples]

couldn't something be done similar to how pirates create those emulation programs to play snes, etc onto a computer? Or is the architecture so complex that such a one-to-one conversion isn't possible.

That, and large parts of the classic Xbox architecture are patented by NVIDIA, which is unwilling to license them to Microsoft for use in an ATI based console at any price short of 51 percent of market cap. Besides, do you see working PS2, GameCube, or Xbox emulators on modern PCs? Emulation generally needs a gap of two console generations to work well, outside of special cases that can be high-level-emulated. Microsoft's goal in Xbox-on-360 emulation is to make each game such a special case.

Re:Emulation?

[iknowrobocop]

Is the snes really comparable to an Xbox? The super nintendo had very limited hardware and it still took a good while for a decent emulator to come along. We're 15 years out of the release of the SNES now and there are still some things that the best emulators don't do (see Wikipedia on Snes9x). The Xbox is more complex and the games work in quirky ways that make a catch-all solution impossible. That's why you hear about Sony considering putting actual PS2 hardware in the PS3 rather than going the emulation route...

Re:Emulation?

[the_B0fh]

wtf? mame developers and such are not pirates. Gotta love those tar brushes. You stocked up on feathers?

Re:Emulation?

[Anonymous Coward]

The fine software folks who write emulation software should NOT be called "pirates". Pirates are those who user their program and download roms and sell the bundle for $$$.

Re:Emulation?

[ivan256]

Besides, do you see working PS2, GameCube, or Xbox emulators on modern PCs?

Yes.

The compatability isn't there, but unlike Microsoft, unofficial emulator developers don't have specs and have to reverse engineer things. The speed is there though. Your generation generalization is really not a factor this time, since processor speeds grew by a signifigantly higher factor than they did during any previous console generation.

I think you would probably be surprised how few special cases Microsoft has in their Xbox emulator. Xbox just isn't that powerful or complex by today's standards, and the 360 is really well suited to emulating it. The troubles they are having with emulation right now are probably because they took a bunch of high-level shortcuts to get the product done quickly, and now they are busy replacing that code with general purpose code that accuratly provides low level emulation.

Re:Emulation?

[Anonymous Coward]

spoken like someone who doesn't own a 360. If you read up on the whole BC thing, you'll find that most games ARE special cases, which is why the emulation list is 200 some games long whereas the list of xbox titles is closer to the 600-800 title range...

Re:Emulation?

[AuMatar]

For emulating xbox games on PCs, there's the added benefit of the instruction set being identical and the API matching (both directX) allowing easy conversion. Emulating the cube or PS2 is much harder.

Re:Emulation?

[Anonymous Coward]

spoken like someone who has never shipped a product on time.

Re:Emulation?

[matlhDam]

In fairness, the core of the SNES has been well emulated for years; the problem's long been with the various support chips that came on the game cartridges themselves. At least with the Xbox you know what hardware's in there and that the games aren't being supplied with different hardware to emulate.

Re:Emulation?

[Khyber]

Working PS2 emulator - Pcsx2. The only game I've tried that hasn't worked is Contra: Shattered Soldier. (died after "Now Loading" screen) Every other game and everything else worked fine minus graphical glitches.

XBOX Emulator? The XBOX is for the most part an x86 machine running off of a modified win2k kernel. I'm pretty sure someone's working on that right now to make a computer function exactly like an XBOX (XBOXOS? - the next Windows?)

Gamecube? Well, I don't know about that - has anyone emulated the Panasonic Q yet? (Had both a DVD drive and a gamecube drive in it, still retailing for around $600 IIRC)

Re:Emulation?

[Khyber]

You mention SNES9x but leave out ZSNES, which handles everything minus some chips that acted as anti-piracy measures? Zsnes does far more than snes9x does, and the only problem I ever had was due to poorly ripped ROMs. (Get a real good copy of pilotwings and there are no graphical errors)

Re:Emulation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dolphin is a GameCube emulator capable of running a few games, slowly, on a high end PC (needs a graphics card with Pixel Shader 2.0 support).

Re:Emulation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pirates don't create emulators, programmers do. By calling people like the xmame team pirates you're insulting them. Don't confuse people who contribute code and man hours with warez idiots like Paradox who piss on other's work.

Re:Emulation?

[Anonymous Coward]

That, and large parts of the classic Xbox architecture are patented by NVIDIA, which is unwilling to license them to Microsoft for use in an ATI based console at any price short of 51 percent of market cap. Besides, do you see working PS2, GameCube, or Xbox emulators on modern PCs? Emulation generally needs a gap of two console generations to work well, outside of special cases that can be High-level Emulated. Microsoft's goal in Xbox-on-360 emulation is to make each game such a special case.

There are two different types of emulation, low level and high level.

Low level Emulation: The emulator simulates the instruction set of the target machine. This process is used by MAME, ZSNES (mostly written in assembler for added speed), and for many systems which are 10+ years old. While very CPU intensive this grantees compellability to the function implemented.

High Level Emulation: First widely implemented by the UltraHLE team, before that people were trying to build low-level emulators. The team figured out the bulk of the code that was written for the N64 was in a higher-level language (i.e. C or C++ and vendor microcode for SGI graphics processor). The CPU emulation used a technique pioneered by digital were they save code that was already translated into the x86 and reused the next loop. IIRC from their paper this gave a rough 2 x86 instructions to every MIPS instruction. Since very few developers wrote their own microcode for the graphics processor, an even higher level of abstraction could be used. By a process similar to decompiling [recognizing blocks of codes] and compiling for the Voodoo [translating those block to Glide3d] they were able to get (IIRC) 21 games to run on a 350 MHz PC back in 1998, three years after the release of the N64. Of course the downsides to HLE emulation is that if a developer dose something different (like write their own microcode) the emulator needs to be tailored for that game. Since PS2 games are all written in assembler we will never see a High Level Emulator for it.

As for the xbox; Micorosoft's licensed Nvidia patents for the 360 and they have the API-source and documentation used by the games. Nevertheless, the emulation still needs to be optimized (Ninja Gaiden comes to mind with its frame rate problems). They have also seemed to over come endian issues considering how vastly different the architecture is between the PC-like Xbox and the GameCube-like 360. So getting their high-level emulator working is an incredible feat that is under reported. The team has reported that once they get a particular game working other games that use that engine start to work too.

The PS3, for comparisons sake, is completely different Sony is apparently planning to bundle part of the PS2 chipset. The PS3 will most likely do complete Low-level Emulation of the PS1, unlike the PS2, which only emulates the graphics chipset of the PS1. As Sony, cost cuts the PS3 they hope replace the PS2 chipset with software emulation. The later PS3 may not be able to play (because of the emulator) the same PS2 games when it first came out. It would seem that both Moore and Sony are hoping the backwards compatibility will be far less of an issue 2-3 years from now when there are enough good games for both systems.

--PH

I'm happy so far

[Dark Paladin]

I mean, the most important game on the list has backwards compatibility already.

Re:I'm happy so far

[Surt]

You call yourself a slashdotter and yet posted that without the obligatory OMG Ponies!!! ???

Re:I'm happy so far

[Anonymous Coward]

Phew. I was afraid that even though this joke has been beaten on again and again since, well, november '05, someone would have the hutzpah to bring it up again!

Clever! Edgy!

No... really... please let not beat a dead horse adventure anymore...

Re:I'm happy so far

[Dark Paladin]

OMG! Ponies!

Re:I'm happy so far

[Tim C]

Quiet you fool, my daughter might hear you!

Short version...

[larsoncc]

Major Nelson's interview of Peter Moore said that they were essentially looking to provide more updates in the next week, and that two of the new titles for backCompat would be Lego Star Wars and Doom 3. There will be about 20 titles in this update.

Re:Short version...

[ConceptJunkie]

Yeah, but I bet they'll never fix the compatibility for Chocalate Star Wars.

That's OK, I can never find a retailer that carries it.

2015 may be too optimistic....Re:YES!!

[Anonymous Coward]

By 2015, it will be XBOX 720, with a glitchy VR immersion filter, optional upgrades to neurally linked handset controls, and directions written in New Japanese--and still unreadable.

Then again, the competitors may have something better, like the GoogleMania LiveVR Console--New Search And Destroy Feature: search the web, and then destroy it!

Waiting for Halo 26...or at least a redo of Iron Helix.

Not an Anonymous Coward! Just a Lazy Lurker!

CG
cganders1@yahoo.com
**Goals are just DREAMS with DEADLINES!
**Live your life with passion and risk!
kinetically active website: http://home.myuw.net/cganders
irreverent blog: Musings and Meanings on NonSensical Events and Canada
http://ahablogolicious.blogspot.com/ latest blog posts include Gordon
Michael Woolvett winning award and the prerelease announcement of HALO 26 (first 500 orders get free cloning)

And by golly...

[jpardey]

...we is gonna hve that backwards compat for you, if it's the last thing I do. Boy, we'll get'r done! Now just let me fire up this batch o' rotgut, and I'll get you your backwards compat.

Microsoft Cares

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

>Boy, do we care about backward compat[ibility]...

And, we will tell you how much you should care about it too. We know exactly how much is perfect. You will be happy with that amount of compatability.

Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[LiquidCoooled]

The mere fact that games are being handled on a case by case basis implies that it is a re-engineering of the original code to produce a new port of the game.
Similar to the Linux ports of Doom and stuff (port the engine, use the graphics from the original disc)

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[Amouth]

i personaly wonder how much of it is the whole signed code thing.. i mean any orginal xbox game that came out before the cert for the 360 wouldn't run by design of the 360

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[LiquidCoooled]

Theres no need for a digital cert, the codebase simply won't run.
If it was a compatible chipset, then MS would've simply included the code for the original xbox bootup sequence and transparently handled backwards compatibility.

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[Keeper]

If that were true, the updates would be MUCH larger than a few mb.

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[Amouth]

I know the codebase is diffrent.. but for the later games that could have been compiled to work on multi acr's if they had thought about it.. what do they do about the whole signed code on the 360..

i don't have a 360 so i don't know how it works exactly but if you have to download and update for your games to work.. they can't be too small and would eat the hdd's space - i don't know exactly but i think it would have been better for them to just have a straight generic emulater

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[LiquidCoooled]

The doom3 "patch" required to run on linux is about 16MB (450MB for the demo which includes maps and textures)
Older versions of the port stand at about 8MB.

Many games actually need very little in the way of code, the greatest majority of the game comes from the textures and meshes which populate the worlds.

Remember, most modern games are based upon still valid functioning code from easily 20 years ago, the algorythms haven't changed much at all, the rules are still in place.

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the grandparent is saying they're cramming 20+ titles in a FEW mb. 20*16MB is NOT a few MB.

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[JFitzsimmons]

A good portion of the doom3 engine's code is IDENTICAL on all platforms. All the code in the SDK, to be exact; which is reportedly about half the codebase. I suspect that a fair amount of code that is not made available in the SDK is also crossplatform, but I obviously have no way of saying for sure.

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[gabebear]

A signed executable just has a reallly realllllly complex checksum appended to the original unsigned executable. Any executable can be signed rather easily if you know the algorithm and key. Once the checksum checks out, the executable runs like normal. If all that was needed to run an XBox1 game was the signature then these downloads would only be a kilobyte or two at most.

The 360 doesn't seem to have enough power in the right areas to emulate a XBox1, I'm sure Microsoft tried to write a generic emulator... and failed.

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[grumbel]

Given this anwer to the question if a recently released XBox game will run on XBox360 I don't think they are doing a recompile, at least not with the source code, since Microsoft doesn't have that. Either they just tweak the emulator on a game by game basis or they are doing some kind of decompile/recompile thing to get a native XBox360 binary. However, so far I couldn't find any information of what they are really doing and why it is going so slowly.

http://ragnartornquist.com/?m=200603

Will it run on an xbox360 (emulated xbox) ?

Not for the time being, no. Microsoft alone makes the call whether or not to support a game through emulation, and if so, they'll issue a patch for download at a later stage. I hope they do, of course, but we have absolutely no say in that decision. They're good people, and they like the game, so maybe we'll get lucky. Fingers crossed.

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[Keeper]

That quote isn't entirely true -- game companies do have some pull in determining what games get bc work done. The game company can "fund" the development work to make a game backwards compatible, but so far (from my understanding) no game company has chosen to do so.

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[ClamIAm]

I'm pretty sure that this isn't the case. If you've ever followed console emulator development, what Microsoft is saying would sound very familiar.

Also, if they were recompiling the code to native PPC, they'd need the original source code of every game released for the Xbox. I seriously doubt this would happen, as it would require special legal contracts with every developer and publisher who made a game for the Xbox.

Also also, are you suggesting that the Xbox compatability team would be able to fix bugs in hundreds of codebases they've never seen before?

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[Keeper]

The latest back-compat "package" is smaller than 4mb (for all 200+ games). Unless the average xbox game is 20k in size, they aren't recompiling xbox games to run on the 360. There are a number of other reasons why it would be silly to suggest that they are doing such a thing (lack of source code being the primary factor), so do we really need to take this any further?

Re:Does backwards compatability = Recompile?

[Keeper]

The last emulator "update" was 4mb...

"concerned" = "worried about" || "care"

[Deathbane27]

So, to clarify the clarification...

What he meant was that they weren't worried about BC.

What people thought he meant was that they don't care about BC.

Broken Backwards Compatability

[Anonymous Coward]

This is entirely pointless seing as many games ALREADY ON THE LIST don't work correctly and you can't copy your data over.

Halo 2 has various glitches that slow the frame rate to 5FPS, or the screen will screw up and show an overlay of the previous level while you are trying to play.

Forza either runs too fast or too slow and the FMV sequences play in a reverse/negative pallete (its all blue and green and purple) and play all screwed up on my X360.

Also since you cant copy your data forward it really reduces the usefulness of BC. All the weeks and months spent on Forza building up skills/stats/cars/money etc are effectively gone unless I want to play it on the old Xbox.

There are other examples but these 2 are the first that came to mind.

What's really going on.

[Animats]

Somewhere, a bunch of programmers are busily recompiling x86 code for PowerPC and looking for endian problems. It's a routine headache. Remember, the original Xbox is quite vanilla; it's basically a PC with an NVidia graphics processor running a stripped-down Windows 2000. In fact, most Xbox games can be run on PCs with the development environment (usually VC++), if you have the tools and files to build the game. (No, fanboys, that doesn't mean you can run the retail game on your PC.)

I wonder if the porting job is being done in the US or in some low-wage country.

Microsoft, not too clever these chaps

[AbRASiON]

What's the deal here,...

I mean they promised B/C on high selling titles and then released it with a fairly piss poor list besides a few games and have mostly ignored it since.

Microsoft want to promote the X360 in Japan and so far it's going like shit, the least they can do is to make as many games b/c as possible, it's a damn logicial thing to do because places where the X360 isn't doing so well, at least they can add the bulletpoint of b/c to convince current Xbox 1 owners to grab it or to convince people sitting on the fence 'hey, buy our 300$ console you can not only run these new games but all these old ones'

Sure it's not the be all and end all selling point but considering the X360 was released substantially too early (compared to previous console "cycles") they need to do all they can.

Re:Microsoft, not too clever these chaps

[gabebear]

There is no backwards compatibility in the $300 model, you need a hard drive to run old games.

Who bought the HD-less 360? why? do you regret it?

Re:Microsoft, not too clever these chaps

[AbRASiON]

Sorry I was just throwing out a $$ figure, make it 400$ console.

Re:Microsoft, not too clever these chaps

[NemosomeN]

The more expensive model was in much higher demand because of this. Desperate people who wanted to pay for the higher spec system had to settle for the cheaper one.

They had good reasons

[earnest murderer]

to port of Barbie Horse Adventures.

Re:They had good reasons

[smash]

Hmmm what a product name. Sounds like the name of some obscure porno featured on stile project...

Nostalgia?

[dr.banes]

Forget about all of this backward compatibility bullshit. Its the feature that everyone talks about but no one hardly uses. I can count the times on one hand how many original PS1 games I've put into my PS2. Why do I want to play MGS1 on the PS2 when the GC has a remake of it? To MS's credit they're trying or they claim they are. The Xbox has about 800 titles and the PS2 much larger but with the radical diferences in hardware it can be pretty tricky to emulate. Look at the hard time its taking homebrew programmers to get N64 on the PSP or any other system for that matter. Both companies have to sift through the "important" titles to make sure they work, and sales figures chose those. Do we make sure that Kabuki Warriors and MTV Celebrity Deathmatch are compatible with the 360? Hell no but we sure are gonna make Riddick and Ninja Gaiden comaptible. How many PS1 games were compatible with the PS2 and every iteration of it? The feature is just there so you don't feel so bad plunking down your hard earned cash into the "next generation" of consoles. PC hardware changes more frequently and hardcore people upgrade just as much. Consoles last about 5 years, hardcore gamers usually have all 3, and people are whining and complainig that they can't play a copy Barbie Horse Adventure or whatever the fuck on their "new" console.

Re:Nostalgia?

[drewmca]

But barbie horse adventures and kabuki warriors are backwards compatible! It's true!

That is exactly why people harp about BC...

[Hamster Lover]

I remember when the PS2 was released and the only new game worth playing was Gran Tourismo 3 while we waited and waited and waited for new games. Without backwards compatibility I would have shoved it in the closet and gone back to playing my original PS. There are about three games I want to play on the 360, so I feel the same about the 360 as I did the PS2 and I would had bought one by now if it played more than two of the twenty of my current Xbox titles. As games grow ever more expensive and the wait between titles seems to be longer than ever, backwards compatibility seems a lot more important than it used to be.

To top it off, and I say this a lot, I am sorry, is that what you think backwards compatible means and what Microsoft has it its head are two different things. There are plenty of games of the "compatible" list that really aren't -- they freeze, have framerates that drop to near zero, are filled with bugs that make the game unusable, laggy or unusable on-line play, and on and on. Granted, there are some games that were in that category that are now fixed, Ninja Gaiden was one such game, but Microsoft still has a long way to go.

Given all the time and money they've spent getting older games working on the 360, I wonder if it wouldn't have been cheaper for Microsoft to simply have thrown at least some of the components from the original Xbox into the machine to ensure compatibility. How long are they going to grind this mill, it's got to cost them money?

Still no way of transferring saves

[robosmurf]

Even if they do add more titles, the backwards compatibility is still nearly useless for many games as there is still no way of transferring saved games from the Xbox to the Xbox 360.

I'm worried that Sony may try to pull the same stunt. Like the 360, the PS3 is missing memory card slots for the previous generation, so saved games could be a problem there as well.

Is it hard?

[rAiNsT0rm]

...to backpedal that often and that quickly? Microsoft in gaming is like the fat kid trying to make friends in school, he'll tell you anything to gain your friendship.

Fat Kid: "Yeah! I love the Xbox 360."
You: "Eh, I'm more of a Sony fan."
Fat Kid: "Oh, Yeah! I love Sony waaay more than Microsoft."

MS: We will make every Xbox game compatible on our horribly kludged backwards compatibility.
Fans: Woo hoo! I'm buying an Xbox 360 then instead of an Xbox since I get the best of both worlds.
MS: Um, screw this, it's hard and we don't make much money from the time investment... let's not push this anymore.
MS: The next gen games are sooo great you don't need those old, crusty original titles after all.
Fans: uhh, WTF? We actually remember you promising the moon and stars, what happened?
MS: Oh, yeah, we were just kidding... I mean our comments got misconstrued, yeah that's it.
Fans: *Holding their sore asses* Something makes us believe you really don't care about anything but our wallets...

How can people not see through this crap? Yet people keep going back to get anal raped over and over by them and somehow it never sinks in. Amazing.

Re:Is it hard?

[entmike]

More like:

Typical Slashdot Reader: Yeah! Screw Microsoft!
MS: We are still working on backwards compatibility, even if our studies show most people don't care.
Typical Slashdot Reader: Yeah! Screw Microsoft!
MS: We are giving away free money.
Typical Slashdot Reader: Yeah! Screw Microsoft!
MS: We just found a cure for HIV.
Typical Slashdot Reader: Yeah! Screw Microsoft!

Re:Is it hard?

[rAiNsT0rm]

Do you seriously believe that? Honestly. Microsoft's foray into gaming was a quick attempt to capitalize on the relatively large number of dollars spent on gaming. Their approach was shameful, a hastily thrown together stripped down PC and a very small library of games which included very few AAA titles. It had a very narrow target market and was by all acounts a failure on many levels.

They have made it quite clear that they have no real interests in innovation and moving gaming forward in any way but through HD graphics and same-old same-old titles. Regardless of your loyalty to MS, how can you support this? No other company could get away with this in any other industry but in gaming it is possible.

Take automobiles, say I'm Procter and Gamble and I have tons of money and I just throw tons of it into making a new car. It is a big honkin' car that is hastily thrown together from off the shelf parts, it goes really fast but does nothing else particularly well. I undercut myself on pricing and manage to move a few. Then I go on to a new revision which has a bit more refinement and some actual thought and research, but is still big, loud, expensive, and offers nothing new or different. This would be a massive failure and people would laugh at it, because it is so transparent that P&G is just throwing money at a car to try to gain some market share but that they could care less about actually giving customers something that makes _them_ feel good or fits their exact needs.

Backwards compatibility is not about directly increasing sales numbers. It is very indirect. Some consoles will be sold to those who never owned an Xbox but want to play 2-3 original games as well as 2-3 new ones. Some will be sold to those who otherwise would not have bought one due to their massive Xbox 1 collection. And a lot of backwards compatability really does not affect the bottom line, it is piece of mind and a loyalty issue.

Microsoft does not do piece of mind and loyalty, they like to forgo customer service, loyalty, and goodwill to their customers at every chance they get. THIS is what I do not support, and do not support in any industry. It has nothing to do with brand loyalty to a competitor, and everything to do with good business.

Re:Is it hard?

[entmike]

Do you seriously believe that? Honestly. Microsoft's foray into gaming was a quick attempt to capitalize on the relatively large number of dollars spent on gaming. Their approach was shameful, a hastily thrown together stripped down PC and a very small library of games which included very few AAA titles. It had a very narrow target market and was by all acounts a failure on many levels.

They have made it quite clear that they have no real interests in innovation and moving gaming forward in any way but through HD graphics and same-old same-old titles. Regardless of your loyalty to MS, how can you support this? No other company could get away with this in any other industry but in gaming it is possible.

Microsoft's foray into the gaming market introduced XBOX Live which offered the user a unified solution and consistant platform for game developers to deliver a consistant online experience. Look at Sony's failure to do so. It was left mainly to the game developers to figure out how to handle it. Compound the fact that Sony initially had the network adapter as an optional component until the Slimline version debuted. Rinse and repeat for a harddrive for storage. Do you really think that game developers hated being able to work on a "stripped down PC"? I doubt it. It made doing cross-platform development, at least from PC to XBOX VERY easy. A very narrow market? Am I talking to you from some parallel dimension? While PS2 which had the most inferior hardware of the big 3 had the most success, I don't see how you can say there was no innovation at all. Microsoft was able to set the standard in online experience for consoles, which now Sony has taken a hint to, also with the harddrive.

These are FACTS. I am not a Fan boy of one system over another. I own all of them. But don't toss out baseless anti-MS statements without some real facts to back it up with.

Re:Is it hard?

[rAiNsT0rm]

So by your reasoning, because Microsoft was able to offer an online system, that makes the entire system a success? Sure, Xbox Live was innovative... but very little that has been done with it is that innovative. If anything Xbox Live has succeeded DESPITE the Xbox and Microsoft. Due to the lack of games for the 360, people have jumped onto shit like Geometry wars and UNO for God's sake. The player interaction, however, is great. Now they just need a few top games to take advantage of it.

If you look at your reply to me that is the only counterpoint. So, I wouldn't jump to false reasoning and feel that one point somehow eclipses the rest. And I'm not sure how you were trying to state that the Xbox is not such a narrowly defined market. Males 18-mid/late 20's. The PS2 had games from educational titles, sesame street, spongebob, E, T, M, AO... the entire gamut. Xbox does not. That is a fact.

Hell, even the GC had a more diverse and wide audience with the limited library it had than the Xbox and 360 put together.

What you stated were not FACTS, they were your opinions. I worked as an analyst and reviewer in the industry for over 4 years... if you would like to talk facts I'll be happy to break down the numbers to back everything I said up. What you stated was that: "yeah, everything you said was true, but hey you forgot about Xbox Live."

G'day/

Re:Is it hard?

[entmike]

So by your reasoning, because Microsoft was able to offer an online system, that makes the entire system a success?

Superior hardware, XBOX Live, Out-of-box experience, and game selection were all successful.

Sure, Xbox Live was innovative... but very little that has been done with it is that innovative.

That is entirely subjective.

Due to the lack of games for the 360, people have jumped onto shit like Geometry wars and UNO for God's sake.

Geometry Wars is one of the most successful XBOX Live ARCADE releases out there. Not all games need to be epic 3D RPGs to be fun, nor do they have to have HD Lighting/FSAA/Bump Mapping. That's the whole point of XBOX Live Arcade, which you as a self-proclaimed 4 year industry analyst/reviewer, seem to have missed the memo on. Yes, I bought GW and UNO. Not because I was content-starved as you seem to think people are, but because they are both good games.

Now they just need a few top games

For as early in its lifespan as this system is, I'd say there are a fair amount of great games (traditional retail and XBLA delivered games) for the system. Not to mention the out of box media capabilities.

If you look at your reply to me that is the only counterpoint. So, I wouldn't jump to false reasoning and feel that one point somehow eclipses the rest.

I mentioned more than one. XBOX Live, Hard Drive, Ethernet, and overall system power. The system was anything but the failure you said that it was. Microsoft successfully penetrated the market, no matter how much you wish that it didn't happen.

Hell, even the GC had a more diverse and wide audience with the limited library it had than the Xbox and 360 put together.

And this somehow made the GC the most successful release of the 3? Seriously, why did you even try to say this sentance to support your argument???

I worked as an analyst and reviewer in the industry for over 4 years... if you would like to talk facts I'll be happy to break down the numbers to back everything I said up.

Please do this. Support your original statement:

Microsoft's foray into gaming was a quick attempt to capitalize on the relatively large number of dollars spent on gaming. Their approach was shameful, a hastily thrown together stripped down PC and a very small library of games which included very few AAA titles. It had a very narrow target market and was by all acounts a failure on many levels.

They have made it quite clear that they have no real interests in innovation and moving gaming forward in any way but through HD graphics and same-old same-old titles.

Can it play my backups?

[cttforsale]

Can it play my backups?