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Microsoft, Massachusetts, and IT

Andy Updegrove writes "A big story in Massachusetts last week was the announcement by Microsoft that it would give $30 million in software to Bay State high schools and universities. Less noticed was the fact that an important economic stimulus bill adopted by the legislature lacked the amendment that sought to gut the power of the State CIO to set any new IT policies that might require compliance with certain standards (like ODF) or favor open source software. Should these two dots be connected, and if so, how? After all, why would Microsoft reward Massachusetts for taking no action to curtail an IT policy that favored ODF and rejected Microsoft's own XML format, especially after Microsoft has by all accounts lobbied so aggressively to bring about a change? As it happens, the fact is that the game isn't over yet: I've learned that the IT policy language hasn't been permanently defeated — its just been shifted out of sight to an 'outside section' of the current budget bill."

233 comments

  1. Large Companies & Education by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For those software companies that don't have an academic injection strategy, I suggest you develop one.

    Depending on the complexity/use of your software, you put it either in the primary schools (K-12) or secondary schools (colleges). And you make it free and secure. Use license pools/server or anything to get your product into the learning process. That's where the money is. That's where you ensure your future.

    Back in my undergrad days, I had access to Matlab, Pro Engineer, Mathematica, MSDN licenses, Windows XP, Rational Rose, the list goes on. I think it was Macintosh that originally discovered that putting your technology into the hands of your youth ensures your future. Why? Because Americans are predominantly lazy and we hate to climb learning curves. Macs especially build a sort of security sense that the user is safe and the machine is super friendly.

    You might call this the "bottom up" approach to seeding the public with your product. Because the students aren't customers but one day they will be raised to be customers and they will decide what will be used. If you don't believe this model works, you're a fool. Time and time again I've caught myself saying, I wish I could just script this in Matlab and let it dump it to an Excel sheet. It's not that it would be easier, it's just that I know precisely how to do computations in Matlab due to my undergrad years of using it.

    Now you have Microsoft trying to stop a "top down" effect in Massachusetts. Whereby they try their "MSDN Academic Alliance" strategy targeting a state's public schools. But why are they only targeting Massachusetts? Probably because of the ODF movement in the state government. If the government mandates that everyone (schools included) use ODF files and ODF software, where does that leave Microsoft? No longer the primary tool of the children, that's where.

    What's the lesson to learn from this article? The squeaky wheel gets the oil!

    Not enough funding for computers and software at your school? Well then, simply alert your local media and just try to enforce the ODF standard. I think you'll find that Microsoft will suddenly come (with the national media) to meet all your software needs!

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Large Companies & Education by duffbeer703 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The other reason to target public schools is that they are essentially a second layer of local government and have the ability to act on certain things without much oversight. Specifically, I doubt that local school districts are accountable in any way to the state CIO.

      So if you establish Microsoft XML as the "standard" for politically powerful public schools, you've basically done an end-run around the state CIO. And when it comes time to ditch ODF, the teachers unions and school board associations will push hard to adopt whatever Microsoft is pushing.

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
    2. Re:Large Companies & Education by alshithead · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh come on... Considering how long Microsoft's development cycle is that could have been years ago. If I remember correctly, XP's SP1 came out in '02 sometime. That's four years ago. A lot of experience can be gained in that amount of time.

      --
      I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.
    3. Re:Large Companies & Education by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Because Americans are predominantly lazy and we hate to climb learning curves.
      Oh, thank goodness! I had been thinking that laziness was an issue common to most peoples at most times. I'm relieved to hear that my own country is uniquely deserving of mention in this category, because that means the world is a better place than I thought.
    4. Re:Large Companies & Education by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm not from the States and most of the time I'd be hard pressed to say whether a certain trait is common in the States. I could point out certain traits of the Germans, though. Maybe the GP talked about Americans because he didn't want to generalize from a sample size of one.

      Sure, laziness is inherent to humans (it's what makes us invent things to make our lives easier), but still what the GP said could be less of an attack on the people of the USA and more of an avoidance of overgeneralisation.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    5. Re:Large Companies & Education by HikingStick · · Score: 1

      This is not just happening in Massechussetts, but we only see the headline because of the size of this specific contribution.

      Microsoft has long provided grants of software through various computer refurbishing programs (e.g. Minnesota Computers for Schools Refurbishing Program). They provide licenses for the operating system (usually n-1 OS realeases, to match the older hardware), and these various organizations distributed the refurbished computers to schools for free or at a low price (Minnesota's program started by distributing free refurbished computers to schools, but I believe they now have a pricing structure). As noted by other folks, this software costs MS nearly nothing, but it was not without value. When pairing the free OS with free- or reduced-cost hardware, that's where you'll see schools making the big jump from Apple to Wintel.

      My kids' school has another business partnership in the community, and that enterprise paid for all new iMacs a few years back. To the schools, anything free is welcome. They're too cash-strapped to consider the implications for ODF or future technology needs, and this constant hand-to-mouth budget mentality prevents schools from considering future costs (like upgrades).

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    6. Re:Large Companies & Education by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      He forgot to mention that we're all fat, too.

    7. Re:Large Companies & Education by 14CharUsername · · Score: 1

      Yup Americans are lazy. Oversensitive too.

    8. Re:Large Companies & Education by brufleth · · Score: 1

      It is notable that the person who invented the wheel borrow was lazy.

      We should all be so determined to improve the standard of laziness.

    9. Re:Large Companies & Education by Whafro · · Score: 1

      But for a school district that receives a large portion (say, 40-70%) of its revenue from state funds, it takes only a short step for the CIO to mandate that the state's Department of Education (or whatever it is in Mass) require local schools to adhere to state technology standards as a matter of "accessibility" or something like that. If the schools don't comply, then they don't get their 40-70% from the state. In short, schools might put up a fight, but they'd comply.

      When I was in high school, my school district briefly considered ignoring a state regulation and giving up its state funding, but in that case it was a much smaller percentage -- 15% or so if I recall. Nonetheless, they decided that the issue wasn't worth losing that 15%, and they went along with it.

      The same is basically true of the Federal Government's control on schools... they only provide 1-10% of a school's budget, but not many schools are willing to give it up...

    10. Re:Large Companies & Education by kimvette · · Score: 2, Funny

      I find your remark offensive. ;)

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    11. Re:Large Companies & Education by duffbeer703 · · Score: 1

      That's possible, but much harder than it sounds at first glance. School districts generally procure their own equipment, from vehicles to textbooks to computers. Most states keep procurement power at the local level, since districts dole out alot of political patronage (particularly via construction projects), and school boards are usually fiercely independent.

      In general, whomever buys something controls it. The state can mandate how you interact with the state, but would have a tough time forcing local employees to stop using excel or whatever.

      A CIO trying to exert that kind of control without backing would hit all sorts of political problems that would make it very expensive. That's why Microsoft is giving stuff away -- a free alternative to Office isn't better than MS Office for free!

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
    12. Re:Large Companies & Education by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      So... sarcastically calling Americans fat is flamebait, but singling us out as being lazy (in a non-sarcastic manner) is insightful... Interesting.

    13. Re:Large Companies & Education by Idiomatick · · Score: 0

      That's because fat people have no problem posting, but lazy people do. It is like poking a fat guy and then running away ... He's fat so he prolly won't chase you, just like lazy people don't argue back :p

    14. Re:Large Companies & Education by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Du bist zu ihm zu großzügig. :)

    15. Re:Large Companies & Education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the Q is what we put in the heads of our kids.
      Since brain capacity is limited we are talking about
      replacing one kind of plants (info) with another.
      What will grow up will dominate the fields
      This is the battlefield

    16. Re:Large Companies & Education by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Nein, ich bin nur für einen Slashdotter unterdurchschnittlich tollwütig. ;)

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    17. Re:Large Companies & Education by DeadChobi · · Score: 1

      Thank you for defending someone's hasty generalization. May I enquire as to your country of origin, so that I may call its people lazy? Or perhaps you would like to explain how it's any more of an avoidance of overgeneralization to generalize to a specific country instead of the world? I can see that you are in the same camp as the OP.

      Good day.

      --
      SRSLY.
    18. Re:Large Companies & Education by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      That should be modded funny. My country of origin can be easily extrapolated from my post, provided that you actually read it, so I'm not quite sure whether you're the one to be talking about laziness. ;)

      By the way, what camp are you talking about? If the answer involves terms like "America-bashing" please save your breath for an argument that isn't a complete waste of it. Because I'm not. I pointed out that the author could have a reason for this specific generalization, but I didn't point out that he was right to call specifically the Americans lazy.

      Oh, I just came up with another point for my half-assed defense: The context of this story lies entirely in the USA, all people involved are Americans, so when we're talking about certain traits of those people it's completely irrelevant whether those traits are shared by anybody else. The fact that laziness is a human thing wouldn't have changed the poster's point at all, since all relevant humans involved are Americans.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    19. Re:Large Companies & Education by DeadChobi · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'll give you the point that it's kind of half-assed. In my defense as a lazy American, my offense against your defense was also a little half-assed. In fact, I think that every comment I've made thus far has been half-assed. Except for that one time I got modded +5 Insightful. That was all me, baby.

      Good day.

      --
      SRSLY.
  2. The kids are the winners here. by scrabbleguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Regardless of the reasons why Microsoft donated the software the end result is that the kids are the winners. Their schools are now going to have some money that would have been spent on software that can now be spent on other things to improve their education. Motives aside, is that such a bad thing?

    1. Re:The kids are the winners here. by mecanicaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh yeah???
      And having kids with the knowledge that nothing exists in this world except M$ products, it's this way all over the world, here in Egypt M$ subsidizes school software to the extent that it offers windows+office packages in the equivalent of less than $3 to students, and in the end we get students who don't know what's a spreadsheet or word processor, they only know Excel and Word etc..
      Yet even in the US I recently read on a republican blogger's page someone comparing emacs (she called it emac) with M$ Word and dubbing emacs of being a word processor of lesser quality.

    2. Re:The kids are the winners here. by dreamchaser · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yes, having kids learn how to use the office software that has overwhelming market share is doing them *such* a disservice. (sarcasm here)

    3. Re:The kids are the winners here. by autocracy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The whole state is losing on this ODF issue. Anytime you lock yourself into a vendor when you don't have to be locked in, it's a financial exposure. It's also entirely illegitimate to have to possess the software of one particular vendor in order to read public documents.

      Besides, in the end, if they go with an open document specification, they may end up saving the equivalent in money that way. It's also $30 milllion in software that was donated, not cash. It's bribery, and in public infrastructure when the company making the "donation" is the topic of hot discussion, it's clearly corruption.

      The entire process of getting ODF in Massachusetts stinks. Those arguing against it are using invalid arguments, and now it's being pushed in a bill that's unrelated (I don't care how much of a good cause something is... all these rider bills are a plague upon the public as well). Not to mention the amount of pressure a company from a different state is capbable of putting on a state government.

      P.S., I'm running the State House in my own state becuase I am that fed up with seeing this kind of thing.

      You should try it... it's a heck of a learning experience, even if you don't win. Still hoping to win, though.

      --
      SIG: HUP
    4. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      emacs is a word processor?

      I thought it was a toaster....

    5. Re:The kids are the winners here. by SubTexel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hrmmm... Kind of like what Apple did in the '80s and early '90s... Too bad for them it didn't work that way. But this is MS we're talking about so it MUST be some evil conspiracy.

      Break out the tinfoil hats everyone!

    6. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Pecisk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is just not a bad thing as first hit for kiddie from drug dealer.

      I just wonder how it is allowed BY law, because it is clearly dumping from monopoly in one vitally important market segment.

      Post scriptum: free software doesn't have monopoly, so don't even brother with arguing about that...

      --
      user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
    7. Re:The kids are the winners here. by scrabbleguy · · Score: 1

      Using OpenOffice will not change these students. Rather than knowing Word and Excel they'll just know Writer and Calc. There are some students who are interested and will learn more and there are some who will not. The important thing is that they acquire the skills that will get them employed.

      Sadly, I can't see any office software package bringing down Microsoft Office by the time these kids graduate. It is far more important to a general career -- maybe not a geek career -- to know how to us MS Office rather than be able to explain what a spreadsheet is and what a word processor is.

    8. Re:The kids are the winners here. by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Motives aside, is that such a bad thing?

      The motive is obviously a long-term strategy, to forestall any ideas schools may have of using anything but MS software.

      Their schools are now going to have some money that would have been spent on software

      Only if they were going to buy the software MS is now giving them. Very likely in the absence of the gift (which despite its stated value of "$30 million", costs MS a few dollars in CD replication charges) they would have struggled on with their current software (and how could htey install new MS software wihtout a significant hardware budget anyway?, or possibly rolled their own FOSS solution, or lobbied Apple, Sun or some other deep-pocketed company to fill the gap.

    9. Re:The kids are the winners here. by 1u3hr · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Yes, having kids learn how to use the office software that has overwhelming market share is doing them *such* a disservice. (sarcasm here)

      If it isn't done to the exclusion of learning anything else. More important to say, learn to read and write without the dubious aid of MS Word's squiggly lines first. I'd rate touch typing a much better skill to than knowing the vagaries of a particular word processor. The interface is constantly changing, but the important features are trivial to learn if you've used any alternative tool (since most mimic MS products now, as MS used to mimic Lotus and WordPerfect).

    10. Re:The kids are the winners here. by xtracto · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Correct.

      I remember in my undergrad years, I had a module called "Computing Fundaments 3" or somthing similar (but in spanish) where the teacher was supposed to teach how to use Excel. He gave us "Computing Fundamets 2" where we programmed in Visual Basic 6 (nothing fancy) and after finishing the module I told him it would be better for the students to learn the "guts" of a spreadsheet instead of learning just how to use the spreadsheet, we had a small discussion about it.

      At the beginning of the "C.F.3" module, he told the grups that instead of learning something he was sure everybody knew (excel formulas etc etc) we were going to learn how to *make* a spreadsheet, so there we were programming a spreadsheet in C/C++. It was a really cool experience, it was de 3 semester of the undergrad and none of us had any idea about function parsing mechanisms and the like, the teacher gave us some photocopies of a very easy (albeit not efficient) algorithm. At the end of the course the different teams had different spreadsheets with differnt capabilities, it was really cool.

      All this blah blah means that it is up to the teacher what students learn, and after all it is up to the students, I do not know how is in USA but at least from my one time undergrad experience in Mexico, almost all the students just go to the school for the score and the paper, and they do not care what the teacher will give, the other half do not have a clue of what the teacher will teach, so, it is up to YOU (the student[s] that know) to convince the teacher to focus on certain specific areas. It worked for me in a lot of courses during undergrad (granted, not for EVERY course) thus usually the "end of year projects" requeriments where fulfilled with my own home projects.

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    11. Re:The kids are the winners here. by TheSeer2 · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Everyone is going to enter industries where they all have to use spreadsheets, word processors e.t.c and they're all going to be so exact that even the mere mention of Microsoft means bankruptcy. Ahem, no. Why do you insist on going 'M$'. Most people that do that are ... Microsoft is providing a useful service to public schools. A competitor could've stepped in and done it but they didn't. Also, can't a company ensure it's profitability anymore? If we had it your way companies would be forced to be improfitable to suit the uninformed anti-microsoft masses?

    12. Re:The kids are the winners here. by JoeCommodore · · Score: 1
      Software $$ but none for training, administration or hardware... Doesn't sound like a winner for kids in school to me. I'ts like a car compnay donating cars for drivers education but the school can't afford drivers ed teachers or liability insurance.

      Having a ton of propietary software to manage (not to mention the 'free' licenses) isn't necessarily a good thing.

      --
      "Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
    13. Re:The kids are the winners here. by richwmn · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't kid yourself. This software will only be in the form of license numbers, the duplication of cds will be up to the schools. As others have said, no documentation or other training. 30 Million in advertising against no cost, the only winner here is Microsoft

    14. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That blog wouldn't be shelley the republican, would it?

      In that case, YHBT. It's a satirical website

    15. Re:The kids are the winners here. by g2devi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For the record, here's a slightly less objective measure of the relative (perceived) corruption between countries:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perception _Index

      Based on the assumption that perception and reality are correlated and the CPI measure accurately measures perceived corruption in a standardized way, the US is definitely far less corrupt than most countries of the world, but there are several countries that a significantly less corrupt than the US.

      Back on topic, the "donation" might have a lot more to do with Google than ODF. The money seems to be geared towards web delevopment tools. One thing Microsoft has been pushing is XAML as a web standard to replace HTML. If Microsoft can succeed in getting children to be hooked on XAML and Microsoft specific tools instead of web standards, schools will pump out children without crossplatform skills. These children will bring their MS centric viewpoint into the workforce, and that may change company's intranet (or internet) policies. Let's face it, you can design much fancier applications in something like XAML or XUL with less headaches, but sacrifices have to be made if you want to be crossplatform, avoid vendor lock-in, and have added infrastructure flexibility. It's hard to convince with people with a "Microsoft is the only thing out there, they created web standards better than any crossplatform standard and everyone uses IE and MS is so big that it will last for ever and everyone else had better adapt or die out of being useless" view of the world that these things matter. That, IMO, is what Microsoft is counting on more than anything else.

    16. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Daengbo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Regardless of the reasons why Microsoft donated the software the end result is that the kids are the winners.... is that such a bad thing?
      I don't know.... About three years ago I was living in Thailand and actively involved in the hot Linux uptake there. The government had a five year plan to move to Linux and was promoting it everywhere. The Thais in the gov't FLOSS program were even talking about "official government OS" for LinuxTLE (NECTEC's distro). People were talking about the empowerment of the local IT business and over half of the computers on display in Carrefour and Lotus were running locally produced Linux. Thailand even famously broke MS's "one price around the world" policy. It was like a revolution under colonial rule, I kid you not.

      After a year of this, MS walked in and offered a "deal" which legitimized all the currently installed MS operating systems within the government and promised lots of software for schools. Since the schools were mostly without computers and the government had the same problem with copyright infringement that the rest of the country had / has. It cost MS nothing but the price of the plane ticket and maybe some money under the table -- I don't know about that.

      The FLOSS movement died right there. Nobody talked about it anymore, and I can't even find Linux in the stores anymore. The revolutionaries were quieted and the unrest was quelled. Everyone went back to being the good little MS users they were "supposed" to be.

      There's something truly evil about a deal like this. The kids in Thailand certainly didn't profit by losing their empowerment to a foreign company. The IT industry is again dependent on one.

      Now that I'm in Korea, I keep hearing the same kind of talk here, but I've never even SEEN an installed Linux system outside my own.

      Too much talking on my part.

    17. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Let's start with the basics. Can you identify a carbeurator? A fuel injection system?
      In fact I can but even if I couldn't, once I learn how to drive a Ford, I know how to drive a Mercedes and a Toyota too.
    18. Re:The kids are the winners here. by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      And having kids with the knowledge that nothing exists in this world except M$ products

      Ya, ok, no one can possibly learn of an alterntive if thats whats used in schools. Please, give me a break.

      it's this way all over the world, here in Egypt M$ subsidizes school software to the extent that it offers windows+office packages in the equivalent of less than $3 to students, and in the end we get students who don't know what's a spreadsheet or word processor, they only know Excel and Word etc..

      That's a failing of your school. It takes one, 30 seconds to explain what a spreedsheet in general is? That Word is just one of many word processors?

      Yet even in the US I recently read on a republican blogger's page someone comparing emacs (she called it emac) with M$ Word and dubbing emacs of being a word processor of lesser quality.

      Whats your point? Emacs IS of lesser quality, if you're doing word processing. Word processing != editing a text file.

    19. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Colombian85 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that the donation helps the kids, but what gets to me is the choice of Massachussetts. It seems to me that any donation would be far more useful for states like New Mexico or Mississippi, which have consistently underperformed when compared to wealthy New England states, such as Massachussetts or Vermont.

    20. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One would think so, but given the fact that public schools are not efficient users of $'s it won't matter. (Friedman, most ineffecient use of money is someone spending somone else's money on yet a third party.)

    21. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Portree · · Score: 1

      The kids are only winners in the short term. If you read the article MS is putting in a sum that is extremely unbalenced even on their standards. "It's also interesting to note by way of comparison that (as the AP reports) the total cash and software contributions made by Microsoft to Massachusetts educational and all other worthy types of organizations combined totaled approximately $40 million over the last five years." The place where the schools will hurt is in a couple of years. Schools tend to have fixed budgets. Whenever you inject product like this they get a momentary spurt of being current. They are very greatful to be sure but it will really hurt down the road. Once these are in place, then it is assumed by the parents and the board that it will stay at the high standards that have been set. MS will be there the first time but will reap dollars from the school the second time. Now where will that money come from? There is still a fixed amount. What that means is that money that was going to repair the building, buy supplies, bring on new staff to meet the growing need, etc. now needs to funnel to MS. This is how IT departments get a black hole reputation when it comes to funding. As far as ODF goes in K-12, what you want to teach is the basics of a word processor, spreadsheet, etc. Being fixated on MS is kind of silly. All you are teaching there is to get hooked on a specific interface and a specific version of MS. Guess what? That changes. The basics can be taught on Open Office, MS Office, Apple products or Word Perfect. MS Office is really not that necessary. So, why not think long term? Free with free upgrades would be very useful and allow districts to fill those other equally important needs.

    22. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Aim+Here · · Score: 1

      Hey, you ARE aware that Shelley the Republican is just a good old-fashioned adequacy.org-style troll/pisstake site?

      It's meant to be a) funny and b) get a letters page full of outraged howls of righteous indignation from people who don't spot the joke...

    23. Re:The kids are the winners here. by mecanicaz · · Score: 1

      That's a failing of your school. It takes one, 30 seconds to explain what a spreedsheet in general is? That Word is just one of many word processors?

      OK that's what we try to do, but when you start having a whole generation of teachers breastfed by microsoft, they already dunno the difference

    24. Re:The kids are the winners here. by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      I advocate giving school kids free herroine for the same reason.

    25. Re:The kids are the winners here. by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      OK that's what we try to do, but when you start having a whole generation of teachers breastfed by microsoft, they already dunno the difference

      The blame still falls on the teachers. No one is forced to use MS software. I'm willing to bet the teachers that can teach more than one spreadsheet or word processor also wanted more money, which is why your district chose them and not the other.

      I'm starting to get the feeling you'd blame MS for a swarm of locus too.

    26. Re:The kids are the winners here. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      It *IS* actually.

              Children being taught in schools should be able to deal with problems in abstract terms. They should be able to use *ANY* office software and not what happens to be the market leader at a particular moment. This is even more important given the tendency of market leaders to try and induce involuntary upgrades that have gratuitous user interface changes.

              It should be considered a felony to have schoolchildren fixate on any "market leader".

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    27. Re:The kids are the winners here. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I have to disagree, a good solid base in fundementals is the most useful in the long term. My experence has been that people who only used OpenOffice to learn are more productive than people who only learned Ms Office when using Ms Office. It' like learning Latin, it's then easier to learn Spanish, Italian and Portugese vs. learning Chinese then trying to learn Spanish, Italian and Portugese.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    28. Re:The kids are the winners here. by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A competitor could've stepped in and done it but they didn't.

      Actually, a competitor did - Sun - when they bought StarOffice and spawned OpenOffice.

      If we set the value of the two as being on par, then OpenOffice has donated more $$$ in termw of word processors, spread sheets, etc., than Microsoft. Also, this "donation" didn't cost Microsoft $30 million. I'd be surprised if the hard costs were over $30,000 (and that the costs of publicizing it are more than the "donaton" itself) - a cost that is a tax writeoff; ultimately, the taxpayers are helping fund it.

      Also, you may have forgotten about this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/11/21/red_hat_tr umps_ms_poor/ and http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/computing_life /85518. The money that would have been "saved" on OS and Office would have gone towards 800,000 more computers. This wasn't a punishment - this was a great way for Microsoft to get into a lot of schools with the backing of the government, and get a $550,000,000 discount on their fine. What a screw-up.

    29. Re:The kids are the winners here. by aquabat · · Score: 1

      Isn't there semething in the MS EULA that prohibits the licensee from using MS dev tools to create a product that competes with MS Office products? I know your project wasn't a commercial product - just saying...

      --
      A republic cannot succeed till it contains a certain body of men imbued with the principles of justice and honour.
    30. Re:The kids are the winners here. by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1
      Their schools are now going to have some money that would have been spent on software that can now be spent on other things to improve their education.

      Maybe this year. After looking at licensing costs for future years, the money spent to maintain computers that run the software, and the support costs in teaching the teachers to run this software, I'd be hard pressed to see a net win here. OTOH, once one has made the decision to start doen the slippery (and expensive) slope to have computers in the classroom (especially for the K-5 grades, where it has not been demonstrated that they make a difference in outcome), I guess a few nickels thrown into the pot won't hurt too much.

      --
      That is all.
    31. Re:The kids are the winners here. by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Regardless of the reasons why Microsoft donated the software the end result is that the kids are the winners.

      Did you read that from a marketing brochure?

      Their schools are now going to have some money that would have been spent on software that can now be spent on other things to improve their education.

      Except the alternative software is free, so the cost for both of these is basically support. Oh, and if they are using all MS software, that means it does not interact with any other, so they have to pay MS whenever they get new stuff, rather than getting it free. Oh and MS software intentionally makes it hard to switch to anything else, so if in the future MS does not decide to be generous again you're faced with choosing between a large cost to buy more from them or an even larger cost to scrap your current systems and migrate everything to a free solution.

      Motives aside, is that such a bad thing?

      Yes.

    32. Re:The kids are the winners here. by G+Morgan · · Score: 1

      Was this deal ever accepted or was their original 'punishment' applied.

    33. Re:The kids are the winners here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no

    34. Re:The kids are the winners here. by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      No-one is forced to use MS software just like no-one is forced to do anything else their management wants. Paying the bills might be a bit hard but hey at least you don't have to use Windows anymore.

    35. Re:The kids are the winners here. by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      No, the deal wasn't accepted, so rather than 1 million computers, the schools only got 200,000, and Microsoft got to shell out less cash :-(

    36. Re:The kids are the winners here. by OmnipotentEntity · · Score: 1

      Nevermind that the school wouldn't have to pay for the programs if they were using free (in both senses) software.

      --
      "Build a man a fire warm him for a day, set a man on fire and warm him for the rest of his life."
    37. Re:The kids are the winners here. by ldj · · Score: 1
      Supporting Microsoft in the office arena is supporting closed data formats. That's what the discussion really boils down to. Microsoft certainly has the right to make offers to schools, but I think everyone not directly employed by Microsoft should be able to see the value in supporting tools that use open standards communication formats. Arguing otherwise is equivalent to saying that it would be perfectly acceptable if all telephone manufacturers implemented their own closed communication protocols so that only phones of the same company could communicate with one another. I think most people would disagree with that suggestion.


      It's the 21st century! I would have thought we'd be over these proprietary data format growing pains of the "information age" by now!

      --
      Open Source: I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
    38. Re:The kids are the winners here. by G+Morgan · · Score: 1

      [disbelief]So once again the system works.[/disbelief]

      You really want to ban corperate contributions to political parties in the US or at least limit the spending then you could use tax payers money to pay for election campaigns. May not be the most popular of ideas but its better than a corperate ruled nation.

      It's becoming a problem everywhere though, in the UK theres been a fuss recently over people buying their way into the House of Lords* by providing campaign funds and the end result seems likely to be tax funded political campaigns (since we've already capped campaign spending to £14m a party its hardly a huge cost to pay for drastically reducing corruption).

      *which is still unelected and still has some hereditry peers despite Labour campaigning constantly on reform. No political party is ever going to change that though, their ability to suggest appointments to the upper house is one of the governments biggest sources of long term power.

    39. Re:The kids are the winners here. by tomhudson · · Score: 1

      The only way to clean it up is to remove the funding.

      Here, we've banned ALL contributions except for private, personal ones, and these are limited to a maximum of $3000 per year per person, must come from your own private funds (you can't give funds to someone else to donate "in their name", nor can they be from your business), contributions have to be reported by the recipient, and you have limits on campaign spending as well, so you can't just "buy an election".

  3. So it would seem by MECC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From the quoted article:"To be fair, the commitment of Bill Gates (at least) to education is sincere"

    Apparently, that is, up until now. Maybe this is the one of the reasons he's leaving as CIO (well that and to get out of the way of Vista, since there's no Dave Culter to tell him to stop pestering the project this time). Maybe he just doesn't want to be seen as a corporate dirtbag any longer, or at least, further legitimatize real philanthropic pursuits. Then, maybe not.

    --
    "We are all geniuses when we dream"
    - E.M. Cioran
    1. Re:So it would seem by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The problem for Gates is that there is an inherent contradiction in participating in both a cutthroat industry and in philanthropy at the same time. As he is getting older, I suspect he has begun to think more and more of the REAL legacy he wants to leave behind and has decided to focus on the philanthropy.

      I do think he will still have a long way to go to shed the more tarnished aspects of his reputation (that may be impossible among the geek community, but MUCH more likely among the general public). But at least he deserves some credit for trying.

      -Eric

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:So it would seem by ClosedSource · · Score: 2, Informative

      Gates commitment to education can't be measured simply by looking at what MS does. The Gates foundation has given a ton of money to education. I'm talking about real money, not free MS products.

    3. Re:So it would seem by odourpreventer · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I do think he will still have a long way to go to shed the more tarnished aspects of his reputation

      Problem is, he has a good reputation. I know it's hard to believe, but among those whose opinions mean anything -- i. e. executives, board members, etc. -- his karma is definitely positive. In Sweden, he received an honour doctorate degree (link in Swedish) for his "valuable contributions for IT". I (and everybody else here) know it means nothing, but those who really ought to know, don't.

  4. "Should" they be connected?! by intnsred · · Score: 3, Funny

    Should these two dots be connected, and if so, how?

    Please tell me you're not from the US -- please!

    Because if you're from the US the question is the height of naivete and clearly demonstrates you don't have a clue about how US politics work and the levels of bribery and corruption inherent in US politics.

    1. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by SpecTheIntro · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is there some sort of filtering process during slashdot's account creation process that requires you make stupid, overzealous statements about the evils of government and politics? If you honestly believe the US is a bastion of corruption, you should try visiting a few other continents. My family is from Iran, and I've been back plenty of times, and I have to bribe the goddamned luggage handlers so I can get out of the airport in a timely fashion. And that's the tip of the freaking iceberg. I've been to Japan, Turkey, Hungary, Romania (where policemen are beaten for reporting police brutality), Bulgaria, the UK, France, and let me assure you, bribery and corruption are everywhere. I'm by no means a nationalist, but I know a good thing when I see it, and you have no idea how much better the US is when it comes to the rule of law.

      P.S. Don't even get me started on Mexico.

    2. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You're confusing petty corruption by local individuals as income enhancement in depressed economies and the grand idealogical corruption of the entire lawmaking process to which the GP was referring.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    3. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that the US may be less corrupt than some other countries isn't really the point is it?

      Neither is the fact that some US corruption does not involve beatings or having to bribe low-level officials. (Here in the US many of the low-level people and local politics are honest and clean.)

      The point is that this is a clear-cut case of high-level corruption and influence buying. It's the standard way that US politics work: corporations buy politicians and the gov't for what amounts to pocket change.

    4. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by SpecTheIntro · · Score: 1

      Depressed economies? Japan? The UK? France?

    5. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by Danse · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I've been to Japan, Turkey, Hungary, Romania (where policemen are beaten for reporting police brutality), Bulgaria, the UK, France, and let me assure you, bribery and corruption are everywhere. I'm by no means a nationalist, but I know a good thing when I see it, and you have no idea how much better the US is when it comes to the rule of law.

      So the gist of your argument is that corruption here in the US is ok because it's not as bad as some other places? That's got to be the weakest argument I've ever heard. Corruption should be fought whenever it is found. Yes, maybe things are better here, but they could be better still if we'd fight this kind of thing whenever it rears its ugly head. That's how we keep things better here.
      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    6. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by SpecTheIntro · · Score: 1

      So let me make sure I understand you. Lobbying is now considered bribery? From my viewpoint, Microsoft is donating a large amount of software to the MA educational system. There's no money being funneled into a politician's hands; there's no money involved, period. And furthermore, where's your data to backup that corruption is "the standard way that US politics work?" There is certainly corruption in US government, I won't argue that, but to try and postulate that it's widespread and terrible shows a startling lack of worldliness. My original point was, if you want to see real corruption, start travelling. America's got its share, but I'm confident that what corruption does exist is a function of human nature, not the American system.

    7. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well...yes, actually. And India is a booming economy. Sounds bass-ackwards, but a casual perusal of any international news will verify.

      This is not the Japan and France of previous decades and the UK can't seem to sustain any growth. All these workers know is that their quality of life has slowly but surely been dropping for years. For example, it seems like only yesterday the Japan of the late 70s and 80s was threatening (economically) to take over the world. That's a far cry from the the last 8-10 years or so. The fact that nearly all citizens of developed nations (even those at a "poverty line") live far better than most people in history doesn't factor into it. People judge their lot on personal experiences and direct observation of the experiences of their immediate peers.

    8. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by Billosaur · · Score: 1

      Is there some sort of filtering process during slashdot's account creation process that requires you make stupid, overzealous statements about the evils of government and politics?

      No, but now that you mention it...

      Look, here in the United States, those of us born, bred, and fed here look at the world in a different light. On the one hand, we are the greatest country on the planet, bar none. On the other, we have the most corrupt and contemptible form of government imagineable, where the little guy is run roughshod over by special interests and votes in Congress and for President are for sale. America has a permanent case of cognitive dissonance, the effect of which is to make us all a little loop, as well as angry and complacent at the same time.

      No one here has the right to bitch about the system if they a) haven't voted at all or b) have voted the party line every time. The fact is, our Republic works best when people are voted for on their merits, not on the fact that they've held the job for 20 years already and "hey, look what I've done for you!"

      As to this whole dustup between Mass. and MS, whatever happens, happens because a special interest (MS) is holding out a very large carrot, which the representatives of the government of Mass. can't afford to pass up. It has nothing to do with coporate governance, legality, the rights of the citizenry, or even what's best for anyone. It's about money. While using ODF/OSS may benefit Mass. in the long term, politicians think in the short term, and getting a whopping load of anything for "free" from MS can't be bad for the political image, can it? Especially when 80% of the population of Mass. can't tell you waht the fuss is all about in the first place!

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    9. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by SpecTheIntro · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's my point exactly. Wow, you got me. I am awed by your deductive prowess.

      Now, if you read the entirety of my post and do me the favor of assuming I'm not a complete moron, you might take my post for what it is: a renunciation of the idea that America is fundamentally corrupt. To prove this point, I quoted many other countries that I've been to and shown that they are much further along than the US is. Since our wonderful crowd of Slashdotters doesn't normally decry the breadth of Eastern European or East Asian corruption, it is then rather knee-jerk to go off on America. People here throw around the word corruptuon like they know what it means. They don't. America has its share of corruption, and we should fight it, (do you honestly believe I would sit here and say corruption is a-ok?), but acting like its widespread, prevalent, and that the US is the scourge of the earth is naive and hackneyed. When corruption affects your daily life, then it's widespread. Again, I reiterate: go to other countries if you want to see what prevalent corruption looks like. I am tired of dealing with pubescent teenagers taking out their angst on the American government. (Even if that teenager is in reality a 39 year-old sysadmin who never grew out of it).

      Furthermore, show me where the hell corruption entered this particular case? You really think that Microsoft supplying software licenses for a state educational system is corrupt? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you don't.

    10. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by SpecTheIntro · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Look, here in the United States, those of us born, bred, and fed here look at the world in a different light.

      I was born and raised in the US. My family is from Iran; I am not, at least not technically.

      On the other, we have the most corrupt and contemptible form of government imagineable, where the little guy is run roughshod over by special interests and votes in Congress and for President are for sale.

      I really can't take you seriously after this point. If you honestly believe this, you have not travelled enough. Our government provides the most avenues for recourse for the general citizen than any other form of government today. We have plenty of problems, (my particular beef is with the overbearing power of the oil lobby, and our completely asinine foreign policy when it comes to Israel), but we are light-years ahead of any other form of government, and really any other system in the world that I've seen. Most of the corruption in the American system is not institutional. Contrast this with the Iranian government, where until Ahmadinejad came into power, very little on the institutional level got done without bribery.

      Finally, the phenomenon you're describing is competition, not bribery. Microsoft is trying to convince a state legislature that their solution is the better one, and I can't think of a better way to do that than to provide the most commonly-used Office suite for free to state schools. Until you can show me that Bill Gates made a very large "contribution" to a politician's bank account, I'm not going to consider this corruption. Part of the responsibility of being a politician is balancing political image with personal responsibility. If our politicians were as incapable of doing this as you posit, we would be in far worse shape than we are now.

    11. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by Danse · · Score: 1
      you might take my post for what it is: a renunciation of the idea that America is fundamentally corrupt. To prove this point, I quoted many other countries that I've been to and shown that they are much further along than the US is.

      Our political system, at least at the state and national levels IS fundamentally corrupt. It is set up in such a way as to institutionalize bribery on a massive scale. I don't particularly care how bad other countries are. That's their problem to deal with. I'm concerned with dealing with the problems here.

      America has its share of corruption, and we should fight it, (do you honestly believe I would sit here and say corruption is a-ok?)

      No, but your attitude is one of complacency. It is attitudes like that that allow corruption to grow unnopposed as long as we have some other country to point to and say, "Well, it could be worse."

      When corruption affects your daily life, then it's widespread.

      Ahh, now I understand. You're saying that Congressional legislation doesn't affect us in our daily lives. I get it now. Oh wait.. I think you're the one that's not getting it.

      Furthermore, show me where the hell corruption entered this particular case? You really think that Microsoft supplying software licenses for a state educational system is corrupt? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you don't.

      I'm not sure yet whether this is a case of corruption or not. I think it's quite possible that there was some backroom dealing on this one, given the fact that they seem to be trying to sneak an amendment through that would benefit only Microsoft. But I'll wait and see how it plays out before rendering final judgement.
      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    12. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by Billosaur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really can't take you seriously after this point. If you honestly believe this, you have not travelled enough. Our government provides the most avenues for recourse for the general citizen than any other form of government today. We have plenty of problems, (my particular beef is with the overbearing power of the oil lobby, and our completely asinine foreign policy when it comes to Israel), but we are light-years ahead of any other form of government, and really any other system in the world that I've seen. Most of the corruption in the American system is not institutional. Contrast this with the Iranian government, where until Ahmadinejad came into power, very little on the institutional level got done without bribery.

      Then you missed the point of my expostulation. I personally don't believe this, but plenty of Americans do: on the one hand we're the greatest country in the world and on the other, the worst. I've travelled in Europe; I know how good I have it, but the majority of Americans have no inkling. They assume they are pawns in some kind of game and that's why voter turnout is so low here, because most people are convinced they have no say and that their vote doesn't change anything, whereas the opposite is true: by not voting, they perpetuate the system. It's a simple concept but too difficult for the average American to comprehend.

      And what Microsoft is doing is bribery, though more subtle despite it's publicity. They are promising Massachusettes something for "free"; in return, they "expect" the government there to quietly kill off attempts to bring OSS/ODF to the state system. It's graft on an enourmous and completely legal scale, as Microsoft is not trying to line anyone's pockets overtly. But graft is graft. Admittedly, it's not the same as having to bribe baggage handlers to get your bags after a long flight, but no matter the scale, it's flat out wrong.

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    13. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by mspohr · · Score: 1
      Bribery and corruption in the US is corporatized. You don't bribe the baggage handler at US airports (unless you want to give them a tip) but you do pay a hefty fee to the airport and airlines. It's hidden in the cost of your ticket and taxes you pay but the result is the same. Your money goes to the corporations. The same it true in telecoms, transport, health care (25% of your health care dollar goes to insurance company overhead and profit), etc.

      I spend a lot of time in developing countries in Africa and Asia and I much prefer the "direct" aid that I give to local people. It goes to someone who is directly in need rather than corporate profits.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    14. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Corruption is very much a part of the American system. It's not so egalitarian as the corruption in most countries, where local officials and low-level functionaries get in on it. But in the highest levels of government, if you're a corporation, you can come to a senator with a bundle of "contributions from our supportive workers", and then come to him again with a piece of legislation that conveys the benefit of a government granted monopoly, or a government contract.

      Not only is this sort of thing common and destructive to our political process, it's often the best investment an industry can make. Before September 11th, the airline industry made millions in political contributions to influential senators. After September 11th, they got their payout: Billions of dollars to "save the airlines." Some of the money went to beefing up airport security (which, in retrospect, would have been a good investment, and hence the free market should have automagically taken care of it). But most of it went to bail out investors. Little of it went to saving jobs, and the airlines cut tens of thousands of jobs in the name of "efficiency".

      More recently, we have a bankruptcy reform bill pretty much designed from the ground up by the credit card industry, an energy bill designed to funnel billions of dollars to the energy industry in exchange for basically doing what they've always been doing, and a "reform" of the Endangered Species Act designed solely to gut the intent of the act and promote the interests of land developers.

      And guess what? It is inherent in the system, not the people. If we stepped in today and forced public financing of elections, corporations couldn't use campaign contributions as leverage to get their way. Period. It would also lower the current un-democratic incumbency rates, making long-term investments in individual politicians much more risky. Or would you like to try and argue that our 98% re-election rate just shows that our electorate always chooses the best person for the job the first time?

      Yes, there is such a thing as human nature. It has good in it, and it has evil in it. Systems can be designed to promote the best in human nature, or they can be designed to subvert good intentions in favor of raw, consuming greed. We're currently living in the latter sort of system, and until we fix that system, we can try electing better people, and they'll get chewed up and spit out by it.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    15. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by SpecTheIntro · · Score: 1
      Our political system, at least at the state and national levels IS fundamentally corrupt. It is set up in such a way as to institutionalize bribery on a massive scale. I don't particularly care how bad other countries are. That's their problem to deal with. I'm concerned with dealing with the problems here.

      You are making two very large claims: one, that America is fundamentally corrupt, and two, that this is a function of the institution. You need to prove both of these. I don't believe you, and I don't see much evidence that would lend your argument much weight, but if you've got proof, I'd love to hear it.

      Ahh, now I understand. You're saying that Congressional legislation doesn't affect us in our daily lives. I get it now. Oh wait.. I think you're the one that's not getting it.

      This point rests entirely on whether or not you think every piece of Congressional legislation is a direct result of high-level bribery. Again, I don't believe you. I don't think corruption affects my day-to-day life, probably because I've lived in countries where it has and the result is markedly different than the typical American day. (When was the last time one of your friends was arrested because his father had money and thus could be extorted?) I'm going to reiterate my earlier point: I really don't think most people that post on Slashdot know what true corruption is, and as a result are overly quick to accuse America of crimes that it is very far from committing. For you to confuse my outrage at false accusations as complacency puts you in the same boat as all of the neo-conservatives who say that my protestation of the Patriot Act somehow makes me unpatriotic. I'm not going to accuse the government of anything unless I have proof of my claim and the charge is actually akin to what they're doing. I see slashdot's prevalence towards "ZOMG CORRUPTION" claims as the functional equivalent as charging a man guilty of assault with first-degree murder: the man is guilty of assault and should be punished for it, but he didn't commit murder and thus shouldn't be treated as though he has.

      I'm not sure yet whether this is a case of corruption or not. I think it's quite possible that there was some backroom dealing on this one, given the fact that they seem to be trying to sneak an amendment through that would benefit only Microsoft.

      Then we agree on this point: innocent until proven guilty.

    16. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by Danse · · Score: 1

      You are making two very large claims: one, that America is fundamentally corrupt, and two, that this is a function of the institution. You need to prove both of these. I don't believe you, and I don't see much evidence that would lend your argument much weight, but if you've got proof, I'd love to hear it.

      I didn't say that America is fundamentally corrupt. I said our state and national political systems are corrupt. If you want to equate the two, that's your call. I just don't agree with it. Second, if you can explain the difference between corporations giving millions to political candidates and parties to help them get their people elected and paying for expensive trips and amenities for politicians and their staffs, and bribery, I'll consider that I need to rethink my opinion. Before you start pointing to quid pro quo issues, let me say that I'm aware that it's difficult at best to prove that something was done in return for money, but that's the "beauty" of this system. It spreads the money out and doesn't make the direct connection between funds and political action clear to those on the outside. The Abramoff thing seems to be a case of them getting very overconfident and sloppy. The bottom line is that these corporations and special interest groups aren't giving these politicians money out of the goodness of their hearts. They expect something from them. As I see it, that's bribery, albeit in a legalized form. Hence, institutionalized corruption.

      This point rests entirely on whether or not you think every piece of Congressional legislation is a direct result of high-level bribery.

      Why does it have to be every piece of legislation? Some things do get passed for other reasons. I'm not disputing that.

      I really don't think most people that post on Slashdot know what true corruption is, and as a result are overly quick to accuse America of crimes that it is very far from committing.

      I think you are just saying that corruption isn't as pervasive in the US as it is in other countries. We don't really have nearly as much of it in the lower levels of government and industry as a lot of other countries. Here, we seem to have refined it into something that is hard for most people to see or explain. It's really a much more efficient way to do it. It's not nearly as visible as the day-to-day low-level corruption that you speak of, and it's more complicated than simply passing cash to a politician (usually), so it's a lot easier for people to simply accept it as something they can't do much about.

      I see slashdot's prevalence towards "ZOMG CORRUPTION" claims as the functional equivalent as charging a man guilty of assault with first-degree murder: the man is guilty of assault and should be punished for it, but he didn't commit murder and thus shouldn't be treated as though he has.

      I agree that people sometimes rush to judgement, especially in forums like this. I don't agree with your analogy though. There's a big difference in the people's ability to prove a bribery or corruption charge and their ability to prove a murder charge. When you have a system like ours that allows corporations and others to give money to politicians, then you are forced to prove that a politician engaged in a quid pro quo agreement with the contributor. Only the politician and the contributor are likely to know this for sure, and neither is going to admit it. So, we're stuck in a situation where the money flows freely and very liberally from corporations to politicians, and we see a lot of pork in the legislation benefitting many of these contributors, and we see a lot of legislation passed that benefits them, often in defiance of logic, history, and common sense. Yet we can't prove the link. So, I feel that where there's smoke, there's probably fire, and we're seeing a hell of a lot of smoke.

      The best co

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    17. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by SpecTheIntro · · Score: 1
      And guess what? It is inherent in the system, not the people. If we stepped in today and forced public financing of elections, corporations couldn't use campaign contributions as leverage to get their way. Period. It would also lower the current un-democratic incumbency rates, making long-term investments in individual politicians much more risky. Or would you like to try and argue that our 98% re-election rate just shows that our electorate always chooses the best person for the job the first time?

      You just contradicted yourself. If it was inherent in the system, then no amount of "stepping in" by the general citizenry could correct the problem. It's clearly a problem with the American people, and the incumbency rates further prove it. Elections aren't rigged towards the incumbent; people are just lazy and once they have one name hammered into their head, it takes a lot of work to get a competitor's name in its place, especially on the local level.

      I also think many of your examples show unrealistic bias to the consumer. Let's take the credit card industry one, for example: how familiar are you with bankruptcy laws? Do you really think it's "fair" that people be allowed to absolve their own irresponsibility simply by declaring bankruptcy? Do you have any idea how much that costs credit card companies, and as a result, the general public? Being a company and pursuing your company's interests does not automatically make you evil. I am not saying every bankruptcy is the result of someone's fraud or irresponsible spending, but I do think that there should be very real consequences for bankruptcy and that it should not be easily gained.

      The energy bill I will grant you, because our current administration is weaned on an oil teat. I do believe that in this respect the government is corrupted, but that the impact of that corruption truly isn't as massive as people make it out to be.

      The airlines have always been a mess, and will always be a mess, but unfortunately we can't do much about it until we get rid of the gasoline-powered turbine engine. We rely too heavily on air travel and freight to allow domestic companies to go belly-up. This is not so much an example of the government being corrupt as it is the government being forced to sustain a corrupt industry. I'm not more happy about it than you are, but if we don't bail them out, we're only screwing ourselves.

      I'm not familiar with the Endangered Species Act, but if it's in the vein of general environmentalist science, then it's probably terribly written and even more poorly researched. We have only to look at the global warming "emergency" to get a thorough indictment of that scientific community.

      The theme of your posts has a very anti-establishment, anti-corporation feel to it, and contrary to that sentiment, big business does not equal corruption. People have a right to pursue their own interests; that conflict of interests is essential to the free market. I don't expect a company to look out for me and I don't get upset if they lobby the government for stricter protection of their money. I only get upset when those lobbyists break the law or attempt to create a market that is against the law, (the net neutrality bill is a great example), and in those cases I call my senator and voice my opinion. Unless you're doing the same, you don't have any feet to stand on.

      I might also add that your real problem is with the triumph of special interests over public interest, which is not a function of any particular institution, but instead a necessary consequence of sociological development. It's something the Founding Fathers were afraid of when they drafted the constitution, but not because of the weakness of the new government, but instead the weakness of the common citizen. A quick search on wikipedia for interest groups will get you a study that supposedly shows that direct action is far more effective in getting legislation changed than lobbying--again, an indication that the problem isn't the system, but the people.

    18. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1

      In response to your conclusion: Big business + the ability to pass legislation benefitting yourself at the expense of the general public does equal corruption.

      Your claim that incumbency is merely a matter of name recognition is demonstrably false. Incumbents also get the vast majority of campaign contributions (especially from business). Incumbents also have the free publicity that comes from being a member of Congress. Incumbents have a great deal more sway with the people in their state who draw up district boundaries. The first one is the most important, because the candidate who spends the most usually gets the most votes.

      Nor do your arguments against bankruptcy laws make much sense. "Do you really think it's 'fair' that people be allowed to absolve their own irresponsibility simply by declaring bankruptcy?" Frankly, yes.

      1) Credit card companies frequently make stupid loans to high-risk individuals, with the intention of letting them run up debts that will be very difficult to repay.
      2) Most people who file for bankruptcy aren't doomed by their "personal irresponsibility," but by a sudden change in their life situation, such as divorce or unexpected medical bills. Oh, wait, divorce is de facto proof of personal irresponsibility. Go ahead and say it. I'm sure you're thinking it.
      3) At the time the law was passed, the lending companies that benefitted were already posting record profits.

      A corporation is not a person, and shouldn't have the same powers to petition the government that normal people do. If you can't see the problems that the alternative causes, you're trying very, very hard to avoid looking for them.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    19. Re:"Should" they be connected?! by Petrushka · · Score: 1

      ... and I have to bribe the goddamned luggage handlers so I can get out of the airport in a timely fashion.

      Just out of curiosity, when was the last time you tried to depart from a US restaurant without leaving a tip?

  5. Why Assume Bribes When Extortion is a Possibility? by geoffrobinson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sometimes donations and campaign contributions are more akin to extortion payments than bribes.

    Like Microsoft's monopoly or not (I don't), they ran into problems in the late 90s because they didn't give out much campaign contributions. They learned their lesson well.

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
  6. Makes sense by babbling · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They want the schools to use Microsoft everything. They failed to change policy that would give people choice, so now they're just giving people Microsoft software.

    Having a software monopoly helps to hold the monopoly together. They're smart, so they seek to maintain their monopoly even when it causes them to lose money.

    In short, this is just a good investment for Microsoft.

    1. Re:Makes sense by ProfMonnitoff · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one who thinks that this is actually a good thing? After all, MS Office just happens to pretty much be the standard. It's very good software, and in my opinion, the earlier that children learn to use it, the better. Of course, spelling and other such things should still be learned the traditional way, but other than that, it's free office software. Anyone who thinks that Bill Gates cares for nothing but profit should look at all of the money he has thrown at MIT, or the fact that the guy runs a welfare foundation.

    2. Re:Makes sense by couchslug · · Score: 1

      The beauty is that they do not lose money. Their cost is media, shipping, etc. They can then deduct the retail value of the software (tax experts correct me here if deserved).
      Looks like a profitable way to advertise.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    3. Re:Makes sense by TopShelf · · Score: 1

      IANATE, but at the very least they wouldn't be able to deduct the retail value of the software donation, only what their cost was. If I made a desk for $500, that I would normally sell it for $1000, if I were to donate it instead I believe you could only deduct the $500.

      --
      Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    4. Re:Makes sense by babbling · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This isn't charity, though. That's my point. This is a good business decision.

      Maintaining a monopoly is important for Microsoft's future because the biggest advantage of using Microsoft software at the moment is that Word and Excel files will always open, drivers will always be available, and you'll always be able to play DVDs/video files/MP3s.

      Proprietary file formats are incredibly important for Microsoft. By getting people to use Microsoft software, even if it's being given away, Microsoft are benefiting. More people will be using proprietary file formats, the kids will probably continue using Microsoft software after they've left school, and no one is introduced to Free Software via their school.

      It's probably possible for schools to demand money from Microsoft in return for using Microsoft software, and if schools did do that, Microsoft would be nuts not to pay up. Not because they're charitable, but because it'd be a good business decision.

    5. Re:Makes sense by iceperson · · Score: 1

      Actually the policy in question was an attempt to limit the number of choices.

  7. A two-headed chicken... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Funny

    Microsoft is embracing Open Source, haven't you heard? It's been all over Slashdot these last few days. Don't worry about Massachusetts, look some other direction. Hey! Look over there! A two-headed chicken...

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:A two-headed chicken... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like Sun's approach to Java.

    2. Re:A two-headed chicken... by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Hey! Look over there! A two-headed chicken...

      Oh.... nevermind. That's just Steve Ballmer.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  8. Huh? by edittard · · Score: 5, Funny
    Less noticed was the fact that an important economic stimulus bill adopted by the legislature lacked the amendment that sought to gut the power of the State CIO to set any new IT policies that might require compliance with certain standards (like ODF) or favor open source software.
    Nice writing. I had to draw a Venn diagram, a state table and a probability tree to work out whether the bill is good for M$ or not. And I'm still not sure.
    --
    At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
  9. Wrong.. by scsirob · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft offered $30 Million in *SOFTWARE* license. That's not money. That's advertising. It's the same principle as drug dealers on the corner of the street offering free shots. Once the kids are hooked, they have nowhere else to go.

    The schools can keep their $30 Million in the pocket when they use Open Source software just as well. The difference being that in a year from now they can get the next version for free too...

    --
    To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
    1. Re:Wrong.. by PFI_Optix · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem with OSS, as has been stated, is that it does not prepare students for what the vast majority of them are going to see in the real world.

      I work at a school district. We use StarOffice for most of the PCs here because Texas' stupid "Robin Hood" law strips us of about $22,000,000 a year, forcing across-the-board budget cuts. We *wish* we could use MS Office, because that's what the students need to know when the enter the workforce. Yes, it'd be better if they knew both. Yes, it sucks that MS has such a stranglehold on the market that we have to think this way. No, I'm not going to compromise student education for the sake of my ideals.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    2. Re:Wrong.. by bubkus_jones · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You really don't get it, do you? Get them hooked on the OSS software when they're young, so that is what they know best. You believe that the stranglehold that MS has on the market sucks, so how to YOU propose we fight it? By giving in and saying "Well, it's what they're going to need to know in the 'Real World?'*" No, by getting kids to learn the alternatives, like Open Office. Kids will learn it much faster than a seasoned MS Office "Pro", and they'll have more time to work with it. Once they get into the workplace,yeah, for the time being they'll likely need to use MS Office, but they'll know Open Office and they'll feel more comfortable with it (and use it at home, since it's double-free). Then, once they're in more of a position to help make decisions regarding software use, they can pimp out all the cool features of Open Office, including the rather non-restrictive licences and low cost, and help the "Real World*" break free of the stranglehold.

      *Real World is a trademark of MS Global Domination, Resistance Is Futile.

    3. Re:Wrong.. by richlv · · Score: 2, Interesting

      i've heard that usa has been slower at oss adoption, though i don't remember any hard facts.
      it is quite interesting here - a lot of companies, big and small, are starting to use more and more oss offerings. biggest drivers are firefox (which in't that huge as basic functionality is very, very similar for web browsers) and openoffice.org.
      from the privately owned companis that i know almost all are using oo.org to some extent (though almost all have one or two msoffice copies for problematic files).
      most users don't have big problems adapting, especially after they find out that they have to choose between slight wage increase and msoffice - suddenly there are almost no transition problems or loss of productivity.

      there are employees who whine about loss of productivity or unability to adapt to oo.org, but after all their colleagues have sucesfully migrated decision makers start to look differently at the perceived inabilty to learn working with a new software - and not as a positive trait.

      what's the main message ? surprisingly lot businesses have silently moved to oo.org, so that even i (using oo.org for some 4 years exclusively) am surprised.

      --
      Rich
    4. Re:Wrong.. by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Microsoft offered $30 Million in *SOFTWARE* license. That's not money. That's advertising. It's the same principle as drug dealers on the corner of the street offering free shots. Once the kids are hooked, they have nowhere else to go.

      Yes, because we all know that MS software is as addictive as cocain. Wait, its not, and you can learn how to use non-MS software even after you've used MS software.

      Also, lets ignore the fact that its $30 million the school doesn't have to spend now, and that MS Office, for better or worse, is likely what these kids will be using at a real job.

      The schools can keep their $30 Million in the pocket when they use Open Source software just as well. The difference being that in a year from now they can get the next version for free too...

      And they'll have no support options either. Who will they call when the software needs maintence? Or when they want to apply the next version? Also, lets show the kids something they'll never see at an actual job or even at home, if they aren't running Linux there.

    5. Re:Wrong.. by IAmTheDave · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I gotta tell you, I know people love open source software here, but kids getting free access to Microsoft Office apps while allowing the schools to spend the $30M elsewhere is not a bad thing.

      The main reason it is not a bad thing is because most jobs in this country that aren't purely physical labor require the knowledge of Microsoft Office applications. Whether it's a future you appreciate or not, there is no reason that these kids shouldn't be prepared for the future they will be dumped in to - especially if the software comes to the schools for free.

      --
      Excuse my speling.
      Making The Bar Project
    6. Re:Wrong.. by russ1337 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      MS dontaing $30 million in sofware? Whats that then, 100 copies of Vista with Office 2006?

    7. Re:Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying that students who use StarOffice in high school are going to be totally lost when they get a job with a company that uses MS Word instead? For what you're teaching them in High School any word processor or spreadsheet is going to work exactly the same.

    8. Re:Wrong.. by theStorminMormon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know, it'd be real nice if some of the anti-MS "break free of the stanglehold", "free the children", "fight the oppressors" enthusiasm around here was dedicated to something that really mattered. Like AIDS vaccines or potable water.

      I'm a huge fan of OSS and I'm trying to get my company to adopt linux and/or open office. (I'm an analyst, not technically in the IS infrastructure, but since the IS infrastructure is one person and the entire company is just over 20 people - it may work.) But these are business decisions. What is more cost effective? OSS or MS or Apple? Not to mention the flavors of linux available. I just don't see morality or politics or "THE RESISTANCE!!!" entering into the discussion. Do any of you seriously think MS is still going to be dominating the software world in a few decades?

      The people that see some kind of moral struggle here are just very strange to me. If the biggest evil you see in the world is MS trying to maintain market share by giving away a product (OF COURSE THERE ARE STRINGS ATTACHED!!! MS is a business!) then I have to wonder what kind of a warped world you live in.

      I mean - get pissed about net neutrality, get pissed about DRM, get pissed about poverty, or crime, or education - but hating MS? I mean, come on.

      I'm not defending MS here, I'm just asking for a little sense of perspective.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    9. Re:Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Yes, because we all know that MS software is as addictive as cocain. Wait, its not, and you can learn how to use non-MS software even after you've used MS software.



      Who said?
      They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.


      That's correct. Bill Gates, about Microsoft's software.

    10. Re:Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting. I'll suggest to the local drug dealer that is always down at the local school that he reclassifies his free trials as charity and writes them off against his tax....

      Actually, I wonder if you can really do this in countries where selling drugs is legal. Anyone?

    11. Re:Wrong.. by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      I think it's one of those where time will tell. I think one of the reasons that people would rather see OSS is that the intentions are clearer. As public company, it is entirely possible that their motives (Microsoft) are "evil", in which case, a little good now could be a world of bad later. A little morphine can ease pain, too much might lead to addicition.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    12. Re:Wrong.. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      People like you are why American schools are a joke in the rest of the world.

      A kid doesn't need to use Excel to learn how to use a spreadsheet. Such skills can be acquired by using ANY spreadsheet including the original. You whine about robin hood and fantasy about wasting money all in the same breadth. You're pathetic.

      Don't get near MY part of Texas. Physical violence may ensue.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    13. Re:Wrong.. by bubkus_jones · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know, it'd be real nice if some of the anti-MS "break free of the stanglehold", "free the children", "fight the oppressors" enthusiasm around here was dedicated to something that really mattered. Like AIDS vaccines or potable water.

      Ah, yes, because fighting for fair technological access, and freedom to choose who you give your money to are completely unimportant. There are plenty of people fighting for AIDS vaccines, hell, on my way to work each morning I pass several billboards with various celebrities pimping AIDS awareness, and that's not to mention the ones IN the mall, or the advertisments I see on TV.

      Do any of you seriously think MS is still going to be dominating the software world in a few decades?


      Do you really think AIDS is still going to be rampant all over the world in a few decades?

      Nothing will change unless people are willing to change it.


      The people that see some kind of moral struggle here are just very strange to me. If the biggest evil you see in the world is MS trying to maintain market share by giving away a product (OF COURSE THERE ARE STRINGS ATTACHED!!! MS is a business!) then I have to wonder what kind of a warped world you live in.


      No, MS isn't the biggest evil in the world, just in computers. The "moral struggle" is strange? The company has been convicted of Anti-Competitave tactics multiple times in several countries. Why shouldn't this be a little alarming? They're effectively forcing students to learn NOTHING except Microsoft products, blocking out all alternatives, so that they keep their market share.

      I mean - get pissed about net neutrality, get pissed about DRM, get pissed about poverty, or crime, or education - but hating MS? I mean, come on.

      I am pissed about all those things, too. Why "come on"? Why has Microsoft been given a free pass? What have they done to deserve not getting pissed at?

      I'm not defending MS here, I'm just asking for a little sense of perspective.

      I've got no problem with getting a little perspective, I just feel that Microsoft should not be allowed to do these things, given their history as a company.

    14. Re:Wrong.. by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 3, Interesting
      That's advertising. It's the same principle as drug dealers on the corner of the street offering free shots. Once the kids are hooked, they have nowhere else to go.

      This analogy reflects unduly harshly on the drug trade because once kids are addicted, they can go to *ANY* drug dealer and score a hit. Microsoft's game is much more insidious, because you can only score your next hit from them. Drug dealers sell a commodity item in an open and free market. Please consider this before insulting them by comparing their business practices to Microsoft's again!

    15. Re:Wrong.. by ciggieposeur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We use StarOffice for most of the PCs here because Texas' stupid "Robin Hood" law strips us of about $22,000,000 a year, forcing across-the-board budget cuts.

      As a Texan myself, I say yippee. Do you really expect that if Robin Hood disappeared the multiple school districts benefitting from your $22 mil would be able to purchase Microsoft Office for _their_ students? Of course not. The whole point of Robin Hood is to force all Texas schools to suffer the consequences of extreme inequity. Poor districts can't afford things like adequate numbers of teachers and buses, hence your school can't afford software licenses for elective computer classes.

      Tell your PTA that if they really want MS Office they are welcome to individually donate licenses (at $300 each) or cut funds from more expensive extracurricular activities like football. (Maybe _your_ local community will prize computer software over football, mine sure didn't.) Or they could vote in a state corporate (or personal) income tax to shift the funding burden away from property taxes.

    16. Re:Wrong.. by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Who said?

      The post to which I replied. 'Its the same principal as drug dealers' bit. Except that software is not addicting, so that analogy falls apart.

      They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.

      That's correct. Bill Gates, about Microsoft's software.


      I'll assume the first sentence is a quote which you're attributing to Bill Gates. You seem to be confused about fact and fantasy. What Bill said is what he would like to happen. That doesn't mean its what will happen. Unfortunatly he also fails to reconize that software is not an adictive substance. And lucky for him, because if Windows was as addictive as cocain, it would be declared a controlled substance.

    17. Re:Wrong.. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Microsoft offered $30 Million in *SOFTWARE* license
      accounting for the value of the asset at a standard "lesser of purchase price or market value",
      given that OpenOffice costs $0.00, thus establishing market value,
      The value to the school districts is zero! Boy is that ever a good deal!

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    18. Re:Wrong.. by jejones · · Score: 1

      The problem with OSS, as has been stated, is that it does not prepare students for what the vast majority of them are going to see in the real world.

      Perhaps I have the wrong notion of the purpose of schools other than vo tech schools... but I would like to think not. Wouldn't it be better to teach students the principles rather than the application du jour?

    19. Re:Wrong.. by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

      The problem with OSS, as has been stated, is that it does not prepare students for what the vast majority of them are going to see in the real world.

      No, the problem here is that you don't understand what educating children is supposed to be about. Educating children is supposed to mean teaching them how to think, not what to think.

      Do NOT teach them MS Office, or even OpenOffice.org. How about we "get back to basics". Basics like how to spell, how to calculate, and how to write. Writing "Great job!" at the top of a math assignment that had 3 out of 10 correct is asinine. If the so-called teachers are unable to master something so basic as to teach simple math how do you expect them to teach the complexities of word processing, spread sheet use, and so on? When a teacher sends you a letter on how she grades students, when you grade it exactly as she describes she gets a 62%, what good is an office suite? Nothing but an excuse to slough it off on something else. Technical-specific adult training is far more effective and focused than workplace training in public schools. Besides, if a company wants workers trained to what they use, let them pay for it instead of mooching from the rest of us.

      I used to think we should have more computers in schools. Now, as a parent, I think we need to take the computers out and put teachers in. Arguing for workplace training in a sitution when basic ability to learn and think is avoided is compromising the ideal of teaching. No, I don't work at a school district. I actually teach.

      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
    20. Re:Wrong.. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      We use StarOffice for most of the PCs here because Texas' stupid "Robin Hood" law strips us of about $22,000,000 a year, forcing across-the-board budget cuts.

      That's the most rational government act I've heard of lately. Congratulations to Texas for understanding that price and quality are two different attributes!

      By your logic, Texas should be upgrading every PC in the state to Office '07. After all, that will be the current "state of the art" when this year's upcoming senior class graduates, and we wouldn't want Johnny Highschool to learn something as obsolete and non-real-world as Office '03. Never mind that he'll be too stupid to learn it on his own one afternoon when he gets his first real job - at least, according to your estimate of his abilities.

      Quite frankly, if my boss discovered that a new hire was having trouble adapting to OpenOffice (which is the standard in our 50+ person company), they'd probably never make it past their probationary period. It's a shame that some people want to drop the bar for students so low.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    21. Re:Wrong.. by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      I've got no problem with getting a little perspective

      Really? You've got no problem with getting a little perspective? Apparently your "bold" tags are just stuck to the on position then?

      1. Do any of you seriously think MS is still going to be dominating the software world in a few decades? vs. Do you really think AIDS is still going to be rampant all over the world in a few decades?

      The fact that you seem to think this is a fair comparison is exactly what I'm talking about. If MS is dominant for another 10 years - what happens? You pay too much for crappy software. That sucks. If AIDS is rampant for the next 10 years - what happens? A few million people die, a few million other children lose mother, or father, or both. And yet you seem to think these two problems are somehow of similar scope or magnitude?

      Here's a simple test. How many times did you write to your senator about Darfur? How many times about MS or other tech-related issues? I'm not saying you have to do one or the other, but if you're sense of outrage is in anyway proportional to the events you're outraged about, and you're this pissed about MS, then I'd expect you to be going f***ing Rambo in Darfur by now.

      2. "I've got no problem with getting a little perspective, I just feel that Microsoft should not be allowed to do these things, given their history as a company."

      Do what things? Make bad software? That's within their rights. Sell it for too much? Again - anyone can sell whatever they want for any price. Doesn't mean we have to buy it. Abuse their monopoly go extort money out of the population? Oh, I think they shouldn't be allowed to do that. Apparently several nations agree. The company has been convicted of Anti-Competitave tactics multiple times in several countries. You see, your case would be a lot stronger if the company HADN'T already been convicted of anti-competitive behavior. They have. It was illegal, and they got caught. They're currently being sued by Symantec over similar issues.

      3. Summation

      3A - There are more important things than MS. A lot of them.
      3B - No one is saying MS should get a "pass". What I'm saying is that opposition to a company/etc should be proportional to (1) the evil/damage/harm of that company and (2) the amount of influence you may have. It's a formula: opposition = (degree of harm) * (level of influence). The amount of harm for MS is orders of magnitude less than the real problems in the world. Your marginal level of influence is also minimal. You don't use MS. Woohoo. You post anti-MS stuff on Slashdot. Wow. I'm not saying that you're not having an effect - "marginal" in this context means "incremental". So, given that you don't use MS stuff and probably advise others not to - the amount of influence additional raving and ranting and bold postings of doom can have is minimal. Beyond the basics you're just wasting your energy and acting as a charicature of reasoned and temperate concerns for both MS in particular and proprietary software models in general.

      The world doesn't need this help.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    22. Re:Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, run for a state office. Seriously. You nailed it. If you live in MA I'll even help out with the media shit (did it for two Congressional Candidates years ago).

      FOSS could start saving any state tons of money rather quickly. I'm not talking about taking PS from a graphics person but on the OS and Office front from people that could easily use something else.

    23. Re:Wrong.. by blazerw11 · · Score: 1
      Two things:
      1. This article is about MS and their tactics, so one might expect a passionate response about MS.
      2. If we all go fight AIDS, will Microsoft just sit around and do nothing? Will you help us undo what they do? Can you convince MS to help out? Should be easy, Bill's already in the fight.

      Nobody thinks that MS's tactics are a bigger problem than fighting AIDS, we just, ya know, were on a tech website discussing tech issues, possibly passionately. We're sorry to have offended you in anyway.

      --
      A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
    24. Re:Wrong.. by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      Two things back at ya.

      1. This article is about MS and their tactics, so one might expect a passionate response about MS.

      Ever read Terry Pratchett? He's one of my favorites. The book I just finished by him was "Going Postal". In it one of the characters loves to collect pins. You know - the shiny metal things you use to temporarily hold fabric together. He's very involved in his pin-collecting, and even prints his own magazine dedicated to collecting and trading pins.

      The point of this plot-line (other than to satirize stamp collectors) is that no matter how obscure something is you'll find people that are disproportionately obsessed with it. Yes, we're on a tech site. So yes, I may expect to find people that have lost all sense of balance, proportion and perspective when it comes to tech-related issues. But just being on a tech site doesn't make that loss of contact with reality any less irrational. Being on Slashdot doesn't alter the rules of the universe and suddenly make bashing MS of penultimate importance - it just makes some people feel that way.

      2. If we all go fight AIDS, will Microsoft just sit around and do nothing?

      One of my extreme pet-peeves with forums in general is when you realize an obvious counter-argument or possible misinterpretation of something you're posting, so you include a caveat to forestall wasted time on a question that does have a simple answer. Despite this obvious pro-active insertion, it's inevitable that some post-happy responder will utterly ignore your plain English and be like "did you think about X!?!?!" despite the fact that "I've considered X" is positively spelled out in the very post they are replying do.

      Such is the case here.

      I quite clearly stated: A - That just because some things are more important than MS doesn't mean we should ignore MS (e.g. "did you write about Darfur or MS more? Not saying you can't do both" is more or less verbatim from my post). B - That it's fine and dandy to fight MS, but my irritation is with people who go beyond rational opposition (e.g. not buying MS, supporting alternatives) and go into extremely cost-ineffective (by any measure) behavior such as content-free rants about MS on Slashdot. Really - who are you trying to convince? I use Open Office myself. I'm trying to get my office to use it (as I also wrote in my email). What part about this did you miss?

      Anyway, I think I've about reached the point where arguing about the pointlessness of MS-bashing is, itself, becoming pointless. I just can't help reacting to this perverse useage of the word "evil" in application to sub-ethical behavior on the part of large corporations. Yes, they do behave badly. And we should oppose it when it's in our power to do so. But if MS is the paragon of evil to you, then clearly the word 'evil' has a very different usage for you than it does for me.

      Cheerio, and have fun tilting at windmills all day long.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    25. Re:Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any time anyone says that Robin Hood is stupid for taking their money, the only thought that really gets expressed is "my child is worth more monetary investment than your child". That's hate by the way. At the very least, that's hate based on geographic location. At the worst, it's hate based on income level, race, family history, etc.

      This isn't like subsidizing farmers or most other political issues, because the sole goal is help as many children as possible. If you take funding away from a child, they can do -nothing- to affect it; they can't move to a different district, they can't get a job and try to make up the difference with resources at home. I appreciate the desire of a school district employee to get more funding. But to do so specifically by requesting that school districts that need the funding more (as in, have less funding per student by far than your district) get less funding, is disgustingly ugly.

    26. Re:Wrong.. by theStorminMormon · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, and while I'm spelling things out for you I might as well point out that I've actually gone even further than just saying "people can (for example) fight MS and AIDS". I've also implicitly allowed for some people caring more and opposing some issues more than others.

      Just think about the formula I proposed (which is hardly mathematically rigorous, but still enlightening). Opposition = (degree of harm) * (influence). This means that it's perfectly reasonable for person A to be involved in, for example, opposition to factory farming (just go with me if you don't think that's something worth opposing) while person B is involved in opposition to, on the other hand, the human slave trade.

      I'd say that the human slave trade is probably more damaging, but if person A has a much greater capacity to oppose factory farming or animal testing than it makes sense for him or her to do so, while if person B is about equally able to contribute to either problem, he or she should in general dedicate time to fighting the human slave trade.

      The whole "if everyone in the world fights AIDS, what will MS do???" line of attack is really something you shouldn't have brought up until you really understood my post.

      -stormin

      --
      The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
    27. Re:Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with OSS, as has been stated, is that it does not prepare students for what the vast majority of them are going to see in the real world.

      How is OSS any different than Windows to teach logic, how to type and use a mouse. Is Windows going to be the same when they graduate? Each can compare software gadget to software gadget.

      Or if you mean teachers are using these computers for kids to play games as it is easier than having teach them real math skills such as simple multiplication I would agree with you. Far too many teachers are in fact over paid baby sitters. Simple answer, no iPods, no blackberry, no cell phones, no PCs, no computing devices in the classroom until they have mastered the basics...

      Your Texas Robin Hood just might have more insight than you think. And just think, with OSS software, and a student gets interested in how it works they have all the pieces at no extra cost or discussion.

    28. Re:Wrong.. by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's so terrible that your state wants taxpayer money to go to schools that otherwise couldn't afford to buy new textbooks, let alone computers, instead of letting your school buy overpriced software. Gee, I feel so sorry for you.

      I'm sure your students are getting by just fine with StarOffice, in fact, I'm sure they'd get along just fine with OpenOffice (and then you could give them copies to take home). It's not like MS Office and Star/OpenOffice are so different that they'll never ever be able to learn the other. Purchasing MS Office licenses is such a waste of money for a school, especially when there's so many schools that could use the money for textbooks and more teachers and other things that are necessary and you can't get reasonable alternatives for free.

      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    29. Re:Wrong.. by bubkus_jones · · Score: 1

      So now your complaining about my doing an AIDS-MS comparison when YOU brought it into the discussion? How come when you're arguing against my opinions, it's "giving me perspective" but when I argue your points I'm being stubborn?

      How many times have YOU written your Senator/Member of Parliament? I've done it several times on a variety of issues including supporting Canadian troops abroad, working with other nations to send support to Darfur, and arguing for gay rights. I've told various politicians that I wasn't going to vote for them if they voted certain ways on various topics. I haven't always received a response (and even the ones I did get weren't always what I was looking for), but I always acted on what I wrote.

      Yes, I know they've been convicted of Anticompetitave tactics in several countries, I've said that exact same point several times on several topics over the last few days here. The thing is, is that it doesn't seem to have bloody done _anything_. Microsoft still essentially does whatever the hell they want.

      There are a lot more important things than MS? No shit. This, however, is a Computer Geek site, where most of the topics are of the scientific and technological theme. If you wish to discuss the greater importance of Darfur and the AIDS Pandemic(Epidemic? I can never remember which is more appropriate), find a website/messageboard that deals with those topics. I also like guitars, woodworking and martial arts, but you don't see me talking about them, here, do you?

      I save my discussions about those for sites more appropriate for that topic, where I can discuss my opinions, ideas and experiences with others who share my passion for that particular topic.

      As far as my bold tags, they were simply for highlighting purposes so it would be simple to distinguish what I was quoting you on and what were my responses.

    30. Re:Wrong.. by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1
      And they'll have no support options either. Who will they call when the software needs maintence? Or when they want to apply the next version?
      You say this like they get support with MS Office. Last time I called Microsoft with a problem, they wanted $200 before they'd even attempt to help me. I'm sure you could call up Sun or whoever and pay them to give you support as well.

      Also, lets show the kids something they'll never see at an actual job or even at home, if they aren't running Linux there. There's many companies that use Open(or Star)Office. Also, as for home use, with open source the schools can give the software for them to use at home, so they don't have to spend money on MS Office, and since they have the same software there's no drama with documents messing up between different versions of Word, or the poor student trying to use Works to work with his school projects.
      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    31. Re:Wrong.. by dave562 · · Score: 1
      People like you are why American schools are a joke in the rest of the world.

      ...

      Don't get near MY part of Texas. Physical violence may ensue.

      I think you did a great job of showcasing the real problem with what happens in American schools. The sad thing is, I don't think you realize what the real problem is.

    32. Re:Wrong.. by Kihaji · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, because fighting for fair technological access, and freedom to choose who you give your money to are completely unimportant. There are plenty of people fighting for AIDS vaccines, hell, on my way to work each morning I pass several billboards with various celebrities pimping AIDS awareness, and that's not to mention the ones IN the mall, or the advertisments I see on TV.

      OSS alternatives have been in the marketplace for years now, at a license price of $0. So why is it in schools, who are notorious for going with the lowest price no matter who gives it? Maybe that is the question you should answer instead of whining that kids will have access to modern software that they wouldn't have if MS hadn't given it to the school. And no, OSS obviously wasn't an option, if it was the schools would have adopted it long before now.

      No, MS isn't the biggest evil in the world, just in computers. The "moral struggle" is strange? The company has been convicted of Anti-Competitave tactics multiple times in several countries. Why shouldn't this be a little alarming? They're effectively forcing students to learn NOTHING except Microsoft products, blocking out all alternatives, so that they keep their market share.

      As opposed to IBM, who have a larger patent pool than MS(or are patents good this week?), was a charged monopolist, but excercised their huge legal team to skirt around those charges. Oh, but all is forgiven now because they are "The defenders of OSS and Linux against SCO". I see.

      I am pissed about all those things, too. Why "come on"? Why has Microsoft been given a free pass? What have they done to deserve not getting pissed at?

      And how have they been given a free pass? Since their conviction they have been the largest target of lawsuits, mostly frivolous or intentionally brough to harm their business while helping OSS (Eolas anyone?). They have to defend every decision they make to every major government, even if it's the decision that the governments told them they needed to make. No, I don't think MS has gotten a free pass for anything since their conviction.

    33. Re:Wrong.. by kbielefe · · Score: 1
      Let's see. Microsoft Office didn't come into widespread use until about 1995. That means the first children to use it throughout their entire education are still in high school. The first people to use it throughout high school are now about 25 years old. The rest of us are at a serious disadvantage.

      Don't worry though. The software we used in school is better anyway. I use logo for all my graphic design work. Did you know that the newfangled photoshop software doesn't even have a turtle? As for that email stuff, I can't think of any message anyone could possibly want to send that can't fit on a tombstone in Oregon Trail. I heard that MS exchange doesn't even have oxen!

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    34. Re:Wrong.. by dnissley · · Score: 1

      There you have it ladies and gentlemen:

      Student Education = Conformity

    35. Re:Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The problem with OSS, as has been stated, is that it does not prepare students for what the vast majority of them are going to see in the real world."

      I think I've heard this view more times than I can count. The "real world" - as you call it includes school. It is not a different place. But more importantly, there is a very strange idea implied in this particular use of the word "prepare". Is preparation a matter of mere training? Is it that you want students who have memorized step-by-step sequences to accomplish a task to work for your organization? Is it a drone that one seeks to hire from the "fake" world of education? A successful user of technology is one who can adapt and see conceptually what is actually happening with regard to the software they use. Such a user will have success no matter what software is thrown into their lap.

      I've written more about this here.

      "No, I'm not going to compromise student education for the sake of my ideals."

      If your ideals compromise the education of students, then you don't have the right ideals. It appears that your ideal is teach-what-is-popular. Not only is that a very lethargic and vapid ideal, but is also wrapped up in an erroneous belief that it takes a knowledge of what-is-popular in order to be "prepared" educationally - that if you don't do what is popular, you are somehow making harmful sacrifices. This is, IMO, a superficial way of approaching education. This approach turns education into mere training. Such an approach merely perpetuates the status quo - whether it be in technology or any other subject area.

    36. Re:Wrong.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess that this scenario could be displaying the *attitude* that Microsoft has:

      Imagine one (or two at the most) copies of windows/office for compatibility. Imagime all the other desktops happily giving Linux/Openoffice plenty of CPU cycles.

      Now add life to them.

      I have a gut feeling that these two windows boxes would end up trying to be holier-than-thou, with perverse, unthinkable crashes and then randomly flipping out at their "users" (heh). While on the other hand, this community of Linux /OOo get along just fine with each other, and rarely try to talk to them windows thingies except over a shared network drive.

      In any case, all the work gets done. What's important to decide is whether it's beneficial to have two overgrown whiner windows boxes in the first place.

      my captcha was "shrugs" :)

  10. Re:speaking of self interest by Andy+Updegrove · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually, yes. Unlike almost anyone else on line, I use my own name, so that people can tell when I (unlike, I'm sure, many others) offer their own writing. I've had c. 25 of my pieces taken by Slashdot, some submitted by me and some by others, presumably because the editors think I have something to say that other's would like to read - not just the news, but perspective on that news. Also, I have personally broken many of the most important stories in the ODF saga, such as Peter Quinn's resignation, the approval by ISO/IEC, and now the shifting of the public amendment to a budget bill, out of sight. - Andy (not "anonymous coward", not a pseudonym, and not with the "post anonymously block" checked)

  11. I can provide 50$ bilions value to school... by Pecisk · · Score: 1

    ...emmmm, it is actually nuclear weapon's launching pad :)

    Yes, I know, it looks good at press, but are journalists that stupid? Honestly... 30$ milions my ass. I set a tag and give you a gift, how nice of you Bill.

    --
    user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
    1. Re:I can provide 50$ bilions value to school... by Danse · · Score: 1

      Actual value of the media and stamping costs = ~$75. Maybe more if they throw in some of those nifty nylon binders. This is just Microsoft conceding that they can't compete in the MA education market with OSS. They simply priced themselves out. So, recognizing that since they lost that fight, they could make an investment in making sure that the kids learn MS software instead of OSS, and therefore fear anything that is not Windows/Office, they jumped at that as the next best thing. Schools paying for MS software is nothing but subsidised advertising for MS. If we can't get them to use OSS instead, we can at least take some comfort in the fact that MS can pay for its own damn advertising.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    2. Re:I can provide 50$ bilions value to school... by Petrushka · · Score: 1

      Actual value of the media and stamping costs = ~$75.

      Probably less. The schools bear the cost of duplicating the media.

  12. About yout Matlab skills by orasio · · Score: 1

    You can always use Octave( http://www.gnu.org/software/octave/ ).
    It works great, I did most of my numeric methods assignments with Octave on Slackware, with no issues.

    1. Re:About yout Matlab skills by m874t232 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, Octave is much less powerful than Matlab. In fact, professional use of Matlab usually involves third party packages (many open source, some commercial), and almost none of them will run on Octave without significant porting. Therefore, in reality, people who learn Matlab at university are generally stuck with it.

      Another problem with Matlab is that it sucks technically: both the language and its implementation have major issues.

      I hope open source can come to the rescue sooner or later, but Octave isn't the solution, unless people invest a lot more work in it.

    2. Re:About yout Matlab skills by orasio · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course, heavy usage could be difficult.

      On the other hand, I did all my Numeric Methods, and Numerical Methods for Differential Calculus homework on Octave.
      I even used it lightly for Automated Learning, in order to solve QR systems within a Java program. No problems whatsoever. Of course, people who need Matlab, do need Matlab, for example for binary compatibility, or running existing programs, but Octave is worth a try, if you need a package for numerical stuff, and you know Matlab.

      There a nice community at http://octave.sourceforge.net/ where you can find implementations of common algorithms, when you find the base package lacking.

  13. Re:The kids are the winners here. --NOT by Amendt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It is a bad thing if you want your kid to suceed in life and not just with M$ software (diploma). Giving your kid the ability to manipulate software helps your kid learn more because learning isn't subjected to "the Microsoft way of doing things". Long term sucess requires the source code (knowing how someone did that in the past).

  14. Meh... by jhjmonnee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's almost the same as when the NFL sold out to EA. M$ is just using this as good P/R and the kids will like it because, hey, it's free stuff. Then again, some of these kids don't even know the potentially disasterous effects of using a M$ OS and neither do their teachers. Who wants to bet in a year, 50% of the software donated is infested with your everyday mal/spy/adware courtesy of their M$ OS.

    --
    hiphop-universe.com
  15. Large Charity Tax Deduction for MSFT by rabun_bike · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft has a long history of donating to charity and then taking a large tax deduction for the full retail price of the product. Since the physical manufacturing costs are so low for software after the initial investment of developing it, free software for education is both a PR win for Microsoft as well as well as a great tax shelter. But more importantly the schools that accept their software will now be future customers. And, the kids that use them will grow up to be consumers. They have been doing this for some time. They even give themselves the full retail sales price deduction for the software which is not customary among corporate donators (or at least it was not in the past).

    And don't forget about the anti-trust settlement which allowed them to print money in the form of free software on CDs. Now, that's a sweet deal any company would jump at. Apple's opposed the deal since it hurt them.

    1. Re:Large Charity Tax Deduction for MSFT by HikingStick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, those in tech circles have strong opinions on Microsoft and its alterior motives, but to average citizens, the big payoff here is perceived goodwill. Parents and voters will be less likely to oppose a company (any company) that give products or services to schools, especially when they hear teachers complain almost daily (as they do here in my city) that budget cuts (or freezes) have been so bad that teachers need to buy nearly every supply necessary to conduct their lessons. They get their single ream of paper at the start of the year and are pretty much told (by their peers) where they can buy the most supplies for the least money. Then, we parents get school supply lists that are aimed at stocking the classroom shelves rather than making sure that "Johnny" has his pencils, crayons, and notebooks. Unless many more techies are going volunteer many more hours of their time to help local schools migrate to (and support) other platforms, Microsoft's contributions will continue to be welcomed.

      --
      I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
    2. Re:Large Charity Tax Deduction for MSFT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what? You have no evidence. You are just mindless repeating some crap like the typical mental-retarded FUD-flinging subhuman you are.

    3. Re:Large Charity Tax Deduction for MSFT by rabun_bike · · Score: 1

      Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD). I believe I am only flinging doubt of Microsoft's intent as they market it. Just as I doubt a company like Exxon Mobile is really concerned about the quality of the environment. I am not sure how you would interpret my words as fearful. Do my words cause you fear and anxiety? I could only see this if you believed something that happens to be not true. For example you might believe Microsoft is there to protect you and do the right thing. When someone contradicts your belief then that thought might cause you anxiety and fear. There is nothing I can see that is uncertain in my statement unless you feel I am uncertain in what I am talking about. I respect that. That is your choice. I am not a self proclaimed expect. But I have been in this industry for 20+ years and have a little bit of experience. Everyone makes the best interpretation of events as they can unless you are an insider and have special knowlege. Notice I did not attack you for your opinion. And there are many things in this world I will never have evidence of but I still can make a valid asserting based on reason, logic, and past behavior. For example, I have no direct evidence that OJ is guilty. All I have is circumstantial evidence and testimony given to me mostly by the media.

      I doubt, as others do, Microsoft's charity intentions just as I would any large corporation that gives a huge amount of their own product in the name of some kind charity cause and publicizes it. That is why charities get rated every year on how the money is spent by various third party entites that are interested in digging through the marketing and trying to reword the true contributors. Microsoft has never been a big contributor of cash. They prefer to contribute software because it is in their best interest to do so.

      The drug companies do this all the time in Africa. Corporations have a duty to their shareholders. That is why the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is free to donate their funds as they see fit. Corporations are self-serving entities. Individuals humans can be compassionate. There is no executive duty to Microsoft's share holders for the Gate Foundation. Gates and his wife (along with various board members) can decide what causes they are interested in such as disease eradication research funding. Such R&D spending is not done by large drug companies because the consumer markets are not there to support blockbuster drug sales of malaria. We have eradicated malaria in most developed countries. But 3rd world counties' general populations have little money - hence little market potential. This is the ugly underbelly of capitalism. Gates would like to change the world by filling in such a gap. One of his goals is to help these underserved people of the world. He can do this via grants from the B&M Gates Foundation. Microsoft can not donate a billion dollars each year to something that isn't going to benefit their shareholders. They must account for ever dollar they give away and how it can help their bottom line. Sure, some money is given no strings attached but as a whole Microsoft has always looked at free software as a way to get them established on Microsoft software. It is good business - many companies do this. Gates is on record saying that if the US govt can't pressure the Chinese govt to stop copying Windows and Office then at least they are using Windows and Office. He hopes to one day get licensing fees from them. All I am saying is wake up and don't think corporation are there to serve the public's interest. They are not. It would be a breach of fiducary duty to do so. They are beholden to the interests of their stockholders. No big deal. Just be aware of it and don't hold your belief in humanity based on the actions of corporations. I would recommed that you lighten up a little. Hostility is not flattering of help you live longer.

  16. All Republicans are NOOBZ? by castoridae · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yet even in the US I recently read on a republican blogger's page someone comparing emacs (she called it emac) with M$ Word and dubbing emacs of being a word processor of lesser quality.

    Let's be fair here; being uninformed about what emacs is, and writing a poor comparison in her blog has NOTHING to do with being a Republican.

    1. Re:All Republicans are NOOBZ? by cmacb · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Let's be fair here; being uninformed about what emacs is, and writing a poor comparison in her blog has NOTHING to do with being a Republican."

      Yes. Stupid Republicans! EVERYONE knows that EMACS is a better word processor than Word!

      A few weeks ago in fact my EMACS program became sentient. It now does all my word processing for me and files my income taxes to boot. I supposed I should say ITS income taxes, as it got a job online, posing as me and now has a hefty six-figure income.

      I'm getting rather tired of it bossing me around here at home in fact. I think I'll force it into a vi session while its not looking. Trying to get out of that should bring it down a peg or two.

    2. Re:All Republicans are NOOBZ? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      True, and let's look at the more basic elements of this comparison:

      Microsoft Office is often described as a slow, bloated program used for editing text.

      emacs is often described as a slow, bloated program used for editing text.

      It's a very simple thing to confuse the two and to think that both should be considered word processors from a certain point of view, especially when you have 1337 types bragging about how they do all of their word processing using emacs or vi to write latex markup. Wouldn't it be natural for someone, somewhere, somehow get the idea that both programs are designed for the same purpose in mind and compare the two for a situation where one is ideally suited and the other is used only by elitists who shun full-blown application suites? It may be a moronic comparison for those in the know, but consider that a layperson probably came across descriptions of a "free wordprocessor" written by some snotty script kiddie and decided to find out what this "emacs" was all about and why is it so great? Heck, some people compare MS Paint and Photoshop from time to time, despite that it is an idiotic comparison to begin with. Yeah, both can edit pictures, but one is present primarily for dealing with screenshots and for product support purposes {e.g., "if you hit print screen, select edit -> paste in Paint, did it paint? Sorry, it's a (foo program) problem, call (bar company). Thank you for calling Microsoft!"}

      What is the URL of this comparison review anyhow? I'm sure we'd all love to check it out.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  17. I Think We Have Discovered Office's Value by MikeyTheK · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If Mass. can deploy OO.o or other office tools for free, then the value of M$'s office tools to those same institutions is...essentially nothing. So what we are finding is that M$ is giving away software that is being given away by others anyhow. Granted OO.o isn't the same thing, doesn't have the same shine or finish to it, and is probably several years behind M$ in terms of features, but I am willing to bet that the vast majority of schools and schoolkids won't notice the difference.

    Heck, I use office products all day every day, on one machine that has M$ office, and one that has OO.o and I can't say that I have noticed a significant difference in terms of my productivity, either.

    --
    Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.
    Never forget: 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
    1. Re:I Think We Have Discovered Office's Value by everphilski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If Mass. can deploy OO.o or other office tools for free, then the value of M$'s office tools to those same institutions is...essentially nothing.

      Not when Microsoft's version offers utilities and functionale (particularly in Excel) that doesn't exist in OO.org's offerings (as an engineer... as of the 1.9.104 release there was enough missing to make it counterproductive). I can offer you a piece of toast for a nickel, that doesn't mean that a full 5-course meal should run a nickel as well...

    2. Re:I Think We Have Discovered Office's Value by budgenator · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Engineers have a saying "Anybody can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an Engineer to build a bridge that barely stands"; so the question is how many public school students need accounting software with the functions and utilites to perform engineering calculations, when it's improbably that they will ever calculate double declining balance depreciation?

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  18. BG for Prez by gov_coder · · Score: 1

    Who ever posted this article needs to stop pickin' on Microsoft. After all, Billy G. is just bein' a good 'mericun. That Bill Gates finishes up his work at Microsoft in 2008? Hmmm. That thar be an election year. Maybe he'll just buy hisself a preziduncy.

    --
    Rob Enderle's excellent new book: Everything I needed to know about Computer Science I learned in Marketing School
  19. Re:speaking of self interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    whoa, a submitter who actually reads the comments to his submission AND REPLIES TO CRITICISM!

    YES

  20. Speaking of philantropy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just mailed Bill an I.O.U. for 20 gazillion dollars (Non-negotiable. retail value:1 cent) making me the largest donators in human history. Be in awe of my charitablity!

  21. SOP by myalias · · Score: 1

    It appears to be standard operating procedure for companies to "give away" their product to schools. They know their products will be the only thing students know when they come out of the education system, thus giving them a boost over their competition.

    And of course, they get to charge for it, which in the end results in more revenue down the line.

  22. Re:I am a disgusted MS stockholder by gwayne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is this their new business model? Bribery and intimidation? Because it's not working.

    Works for me...Bill Gates sent me an email saying he's gonna send me $50K if I reply to it.

  23. Re:I am a disgusted MS stockholder by SEMW · · Score: 3, Funny

    >Is this their new business model? Bribery and intimidation?

    "New"?

    --
    What's purple and commutes? An Abelian grape.
  24. Most schools use macs in MA by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm from MA, and the schools I went to all outfitted themselves with macs. Schools (other than colleges) don't have the budget necessary to get an IT team to set the school up in linux. During one of our shop's arguments with the dean (drafting, as the only windows shop we were under constant administrative fire) he actually showed us the budget charts; It would cost more to pay someone to set everything up with linux than it does to just buy something that doesn't need to be configured. The cost to train everyone to use command line interface instead of the gui they were used to would take too much time out of the computer literacy course. In reality, with linux you can't simply set it up and leave it. Each new class of kids has to be taught how to use it. The learning curve between windows and macs was deemed to be much smaller. My school decided that having all macintosh computers would be something they could boast about. Unfortunately, schools are required (some law, according to the dean) to pay an absolute premium for the macs. Schools get no mac discount in MA. My high school had 500+/- computers, and they paid $2200 for every one. A windows box would have cost them $500 each. With the limited budgets of schools it is hard to justify running anything except windows. Interestingly enough, the macs always gave the IT shop trouble. In the four years I was there, each machine had needed repairs of some sort done at least twice. My shop (Drafting) was the only shop that had all windows computers, and we never had any problems. Our prints were kept on an old novell server, that worked flawlessly every day.

    1. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      My high school had 500+/- computers, and they paid $2200 for every one.

      I call 'Bullshit!'

    2. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by dragonsomnolent · · Score: 1

      Your argument is so far off base, I thought it had to be a joke. Lets see here:
      1) You think that there are no GUI configuration tools for Linux? While I prefer working from within the CLI, it is not neccisary, not even with Sourcemage (which I use). A co-worker uses Ubuntu, because he likes that GNOME GUI for everything. Last resort on a GUI for configuring (if you can't figure out how to work the KDE Control Center or the GNOME configuration applets) LinuxConf. Nice GUI, tabbed for every configuration option ever.

      2) You can't leave a Linux box running? right, I forgot they get viruses and spyware all the time and have to be re-loaded. Oh, nope that's M$

      Honestly, have you even touched Linux in the last 5 years? Not to mention, you can run Linux on a 450 Mhz with 256 MB of RAM pretty well. (My server runs KDE 3.5 just fine, and even it has a GUI for most configuration). Try running XP on that setup (I did, it choked all the time). So, if I have to upgrade my hardware every 2 years to run a windows box over 10 years that's $2500, vs say $500 one time ($400 for the hardware and $100 to get a script kiddie to set up Ubuntu).

      Then take into account those aforementioned re-loads of windows. Even if you have an in-house guy do it and you use images, and you only have to re-load each omputer once per year. With 500 computers, and 30 minutes to image, re-name, configure, etc.. that's 250 man hours. Let's say you're payed 7.50 per hour, that's an extra $1875 per year to maintain, that's just with problems because of malware, not counting kids who are smarter than you, but dumb enough to wipe out critical system files.

      Again, how much money are you saving by using M$?

      --
      I got nuthin
    3. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by Limburgher · · Score: 1
      n reality, with linux you can't simply set it up and leave it.

      Ahh, I see you've never actually *run* Linux.

      --

      You are not the customer.

    4. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

      I never said that there was no gui for linux. I never said I ran it. Don't put words in my mouth. And, like I said, in the four years I was there (Montachusset REgional Vocational Technical High School) we NEVER had a single problem with the cmoputers in drafting. We never ever had to reinstall windows ever, we never had to update them, they run solidworks 05 with 512md of ram. We had 60 wintel boxes, no viruses, spyware, whatever. Not once. EVER. In fact, the only outbreak we had was when some dude in Automotive tech dowloaded p0rn on a mac in their shop, and a virus took out the "x server" that keep students files. My post dealt with what the administration told me when I asked about switching to linux. I had never used it, (still haven't). The drafting team thought it would be a nice change to make blueprints on linux machines, and my post is basically what the dean said to us. We figured that linux was a state-of-the-art os that would generate publicity at the VICA competitions. And when I said you can't leave it alone, I was talking about the need to teach all the kids how to use it. I even said that (I now know you didn't read the whole post). Every kid can walk into a computer lab and run winodws, it's not like that for linux. Even the custodial staff could teach kids how to use windows. We would need someone whos knows linux to teach them how to use it. That salary would be more than your $1875, which is non-existant because we never had to "maintain" the wintel boxes anyways. We bought them, plugged them in, and that's it. Mostly, my article flamed macs anyways, I never said anything bad about linux. Thanks for flaming methough, makes me feel good about the human race. Oh, and before I leave, I would like to state that I didn't make anargument, I stated a fact about what the administration of my high school thinks about going to open-source work.

    5. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

      *sighs* I suppose I should have worded that differently. Look, every year you have to teach the damn freshmen how to use linux. It's not like you can set them up, and expect everyone to figure it out. We don't have anyone who knew how to use linux, which means they would have to get somebody to head a sub-division of the computer literacy class. And yes, you are right. I have never run linux. When I see an article about bleeding-edge games working on linux w/out trouble I will gladly switch. Until then, I have no room for a second computer, and I don't feel like building a shuttle that I can stick under my bed, or wherever there is a cubic foot of spare room.

    6. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Depends on what they're supposed to do with the computers. Running an application is exactly the same under KDE and Windows: Open start menu, locate application, click menu entry. Browsing the web works the same (browsers are similar enough that you can take experience with IE and use it to work with Fx/Konqueror/etc. and Fx is getting pretty popular for both Linux and Windows). OpenOffice is similar enough to MS Office for students to use both without much of a learning curve in between.

      Most things that are radically different between the two OSes are things students aren't supposed to deal with anyway: System configuration and maintenance, the structure of the file system (students shouldn't be able to do anything outside the user's home directory anyway), building applications, things like that. A properly configured Linux box running KDE (which was designed to be similar to Windows) can have a look and feel that is pretty close to that of Windows.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    7. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

      Whatever, whenever they held the meeting that led to their decision, I doubt they knew anything about linux. How could they know that it is actually the same (cool, I didn't know that). You gotta figure, when you talk about operating systems to anyone outside of the IT department, which wasn't consulted in this in any way, people look at it like a completely different monster. Not a smaller, nicer monster that is the equivelant of the trunk-monkey for computers. Drafting wants the computers for engineering, graphics needs it for graphics, the rest need them for spreadsheets and the interweb. Like I said, it was deemed to be too steep a learning curve. I didn't do the deeming. meh, since I graduated I've gotten used to bad decisions without fore-thought coming from the adminisphere. But I'm right, unless someone else from MA wants to argue with me, most schools here (below college) use macintosh. Everyone here @ /. hates windows, but I've never had a problem. I must be the only person on the planet that's never seen a blue screen of death, which I still don't understand fuss-wise.

    8. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

      Go ahead. You have never been to a vocational school eh? We are a vocational school. 21 shops, and all but four had 30 comps. Machine shop, Plumbing, Electrical, and building & grounds had about 5 each. The other shops had 15 for the freshman, 15 for the juniors. Then the next week they had academics, while 15 sophomores and 15 seniors took shop. We had about 310+/- kids per class, and four classes. The schools serves Sterling, Fitchburg, Winchester, Leomenster, Clinton, Holden, Westminster, Athol, Orange, Gardner, Templeton, and Phillipston. The only other high school that large is Wachusset Regional High School, and they aren't vocational. They handle about the same # of kids, from the other half of the state. The other vocational schools serve about one town, like Hudson Catholic or Barry Tech.

    9. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by JonJ · · Score: 1

      Schools (other than colleges) don't have the budget necessary to get an IT team to set the school up in linux

      This is common knowledge, but in Norway, the skolelinux project showed us that with GNU/Linux, one administrator could take care of several schools. The administrators/skolelinux people are now collaborating, and need fewer people to administrate several schools. This saves money, teaches kids about free and open source software, and could make them potentially free from Microsofts monopoly.

      --
      -- Linux user #369862
    10. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

      http://www.montytech.net/ Look for yourself. It's huge. We serve a giant chunk of the state. The site should have everything you need to put out the flames. A million dollars for computers is not bad. That's pretty standard for MA. My elementary school, Houghton/Chocksett, cost $18 mill. to build. Maybe where you live no one pays there taxes, so there is no money for computers? The middle school doesn't have a website, but you can google it. Actually, just last year they renovated it for $1 mill: http://www.wrsd.net/Minutes/062705Special.pdf

    11. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

      I believe it is that easy. But the admins don't know that. They don't know anything about linux, and they only have the information that gets handed down from technology sponsors, which are probably working for M$ anyways.

    12. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by dragonsomnolent · · Score: 1

      You didn't say that You couldn't leave linux alone, and you didn't say that you had to learn CLI? "The cost to train everyone to use command line interface instead of the gui they were used to would take too much time out of the computer literacy course. In reality, with linux you can't simply set it up and leave it." Yes, I did read your post, twice, before responding, seemed like a flame to everyone but M$ to me.

      --
      I got nuthin
    13. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

      Don't get me wrong, I understand that M$ is not the way to go. But that doesn't change the fact that there weren't any problems with the drafting comps. If it makes me look less-biased, I'll point out that at work we have wintel boxes, and they are ridden with shit. Steaming piles of it, in fact. Between the popups (even when IE is closed), the constantly changing ads on my wallpaper, and the spam in my outlook inbox it's hard to get any work done. That's the honest truth. In drafting, our instructor actually managed our computers seperately from the rest of the school network. He bought his own parts for the computers and rans his own blue cables all over the halls. I wanted to illuminate the point-of-view of the school administrations in MA. They all think the same, except for the colleges. And, I'll say it a third time. I'm a student. In this particular argument in the adminisphere, I was lucky to witness exactly what their reasoning was, so I posted it. It is altogether unsettling that posting the absolute truth about my school's pov on IT generates sheer hatred from the /. community. I never said that the people running my school knew what they were doing. That would be an outright lie.

    14. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "In drafting, our instructor actually managed our computers seperately from the rest of the school network. He bought his own parts...."

      Oh, so earlier you said the drafting comps didn't need any administration and didn't cost anything and held them up as a poster child for why switching to Linux would cost so much. Hmmm, maybe you meant that drafting instructors are willing to spend out of the pocket for Windows computers in order to hide their support costs but they wouldn't be willing to do that for Linux computers. Ya.

    15. Re:Most schools use macs in MA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm from Ma. too and growing up I did see lots of mac, part of the mac education push in the late 80s early 90s.

      The whole linux quote that everyone has jumped on you for "In reality, with linux you can't simply set it up and leave it.", this is an easy target, but I wonder how many people that are so eager to defend linux have tried to admin it on a large scale network. I've never done it myself, I can't comment, but I realize there is a huge differance between running desktop linux verses linux on a 300 + computer network.

      As far as "It would cost more to pay someone to set everything up with linux than it does to just buy something that doesn't need to be configured.", I recently worked as an assistant in my school IT department, dealing with a huge college network. We had a bunch of solaris servers, and ,I think, one box running ubuntu that was more or less expermental. The general impression I got, just from chatting to the people that worked there, is that Unix proffesonals are rarer, and more expensive. So linux may be free, but setting up and running a large scale linux network is going to more costly. Then again, the guy who runs my mother's office computers was like "screw windows" and runs all the office servers on red hat, mostly because he cared enough to save the boss some money and spend to the time to learn how to properly set up and config it. Again, this is harder to do when you are running a vast network and have enough to worry about without experimenting with an alternative server os.

  25. Why favor OSS? by bhirsch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why should the state legislate favoritism toward open source software? Aren't they supposed to be unbiased and viewing IT policies from a strictly pragmatic point of view?

    1. Re:Why favor OSS? by tddoog · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Governments exist for the people, so they should be doing what is best for the people .

      Recently governments in the US have begun working only for people who make the most campaign donations and not doing what is best for all. If the government were to invest its vast resources into supporting OSS instead of closed solutions, then all of the people would reap the benefits of their investment and not just a select few. I agree the government should be pragmatic in determining what to spend tax dollars on, but OSS is as capable or better than most of the same closed form solutions.

      OSS also promotes transparency which always an improvement for government. The ideals that F/OSS promotes are beneficial enough for the government to spend a little extra money on implementation (if it is more expensive).

      I work for the government and I know there are many cases when the government doesn't choose the cheapest option for reasons that are far less important.

    2. Re:Why favor OSS? by bhirsch · · Score: 1

      Regardless, building favoritism toward open source solutions into legislation makes just as little sense as building in favoritism towards closed source solutions. As you said, they should be making the best choice. Assuming that OSS is always the best choice may be the opinion of evangelists, but it is a prejudicial and biased one that many knowledgeable and impartial people disagree with.

    3. Re:Why favor OSS? by _jameshales · · Score: 1

      They are not favouring OSS, but Open Formats. The reason being that open formats do not lock users into using just one application. The anti-Microsoft jibe is because MS Office does not support open formats and have been reluctant so far to support them, and, while they're switching file format anyway compatibility issues with the "de facto" document format is no longer a problem, and they cannot use MS Word in the meantime, so they might as well switch to using software that is free.

      If MS Office began supporting some sort of open format, using their software would not be a problem, theoretically. They are already doing that with their new XML formats, but as always they have to define their own format. I think the state in question has chosen to support the Open Document Format however, so this would not be accepted without the state making changes.

    4. Re:Why favor OSS? by m874t232 · · Score: 1

      They are. That's why they are favoring open standards.

      But, perhaps more importantly, if open source were just a commercial competitor to Microsoft, states would have to favor open source, simply because they generally have to buy the cheapest of a choice of equivalent products. So, even if MA actually mandated open source software, that would certainly be in line with their duty to tax payers.

    5. Re:Why favor OSS? by CptPicard · · Score: 1

      I always was under the impression that governments are consumers like any other, and have a specific mandate to use tax units of currency in the most efficient way possible. You'd be tying the hands of government if you said that they CAN'T make a choice in procurement, should this choice be superior to others... a brilliant way to turn govt into a bunch of corporate whores, btw.

      --
      I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
    6. Re:Why favor OSS? by Danse · · Score: 1
      Why should the state legislate favoritism toward open source software? Aren't they supposed to be unbiased and viewing IT policies from a strictly pragmatic point of view?

      Pragmatically, OSS doesn't require citizens to purchase proprietary software in order to interact with their government.
      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    7. Re:Why favor OSS? by tddoog · · Score: 1
      Regardless, building favoritism toward open source solutions into legislation makes just as little sense as building in favoritism towards closed source solutions.

      Not true. The goverment should spend the tax dollars in a way that benefits the people the most. Open source software ensures that everyone can benefit from the money expended by the government.

      I may be an evangelist, but I know that the government is supposed to exist for the people and Open Source Software fits perfectly in line with that idea.

      There is plenty of room in the world for both closed and open source software, but I prefer the government spend my money of things that benefit society at large. I don't prefer my tax dollars subsidize MS stock when it could be put to use to provide for the people. If you put the amount of money that the government pays for software licenses into the development of open source software then consumers and developers would be better off.

    8. Re:Why favor OSS? by bhirsch · · Score: 1

      If the merits of OSS are so strong, why object to them being on equal footing with closed source software in the procurement process? If using closed source software in a certain situation presents a savings in government expenditure, why should their be a law prohibiting it?

  26. You want a conspiracy -- I got one for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



    You want a conspiracy -- I got one for you. Often, and mean very often, opening slashdot's front page crashes IE6/sp2/xp. Try again, and business as usual. It's as if slashdot is FORCING me to switch to some other browser. Or maybe, to switch to another OS. Or MAYBE, to not come here at all !! Then agaih, it could just be IE.

  27. Hmm, by MichaelPenne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    perhaps 'education' is best served by teaching students the principles of spreadsheets, wordprocessors, and presentations, rather than 'click button X to accomplish task Y'?

    If that were the case, then perhaps educated students would be able to rapidly adapt to new interfaces rather than being stuck when a different product (or a new version of the product they were schooled on) is put in front of them?

    IMO, kids that memorize button positions rather than learning principles are always going to be less productive, as even the same exact product will go through version changes, menus are replaced with ribbons, the UI flavor of the day (say docking windows or floating animated helpers) is tried out, etc.

    IME, the real world in IT is one of constant change, and the folks best positioned to thrive there are the ones who are able to easily cope with multiple interfaces to the same basic task or principle.

    1. Re:Hmm, by bigpat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      perhaps 'education' is best served by teaching students the principles of spreadsheets, wordprocessors, and presentations, rather than 'click button X to accomplish task Y'?

      Yes, when I left school I could write using nothing other than a "number 2" pencil. It was a tragedy which left me ill prepared for college. If only they had taught me to use any pencil, a mechanical one or even a pen, then my life would have been changed forever.

    2. Re:Hmm, by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

      perhaps 'education' is best served by teaching students the principles of spreadsheets, wordprocessors, and presentations, rather than 'click button X to accomplish task Y'?

      That's what is being done (duh), but let's face it: most people just aren't terribly sharp. The reason MS is even on top to begin with is that they made things easy for idiots (both to use and to break). Your average non-IT user these days sits down at a PC and panics if they don't see the same program. Forget that they know the fundamentals and principles of how it all works, they see "OpenOffice.org" and say "But I only know Microsoft Office! This is different and I don't like different and it's going to hurt my productivity!" and then get frustrated every time something is mildly different.

      I have personally run into a few frustrations making the switch to OOo. Some features I found useful aren't there, there's some functionality missing in the spreadsheets (the ability to paste into multiple individual cells, for example) and until the most recent verious, the documentation was absolutely horrible.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    3. Re:Hmm, by idonthack · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I take that as a challenge. Imagine this:

      No. 2 pencils are the only kind of pencil anybody has. They're expensive though - about $50 for the cheaper models, and the ones with erasers go for $100 or more. And they are only manufactured by a monopoly that has complete control of the market, as far as most people are concerned.

      Little do most people know, you can go online and place an order to get a different kind of pencil mailed to you - for free. They also take suggestions. Because of all the suggestions, they're nice pencils - a durable plastic shell, soft rubber grip, and even a little clip to put them on things. And you never have to sharpen them, just refill them every once in a while instead of using up the pencil.

      But these are a little more complicated. The whole refilling proccess. And you have to push a button - usually the high-quality eraser - to get the lead to come out. And that means if you press hard while you're erasing, a bit of lead comes out then too.

      The big regular-pencil monopoly tries to keep the other guys down. They fund studies and have ads that proclaim thier pencil to be the best and easiest to use. They sell paper that the other pencils don't write on and claim that the free pencils are incompatible on purpose when anyone asks. At one point, you couldn't buy paper without paying for one of thier pencils too. And they give free pencils to the schools - most people don't bother learning how to refill the other kind once they know how to use the monopoly's pencils, even if they hate the monopoly. The company leaders love it - common laziness keeping the rich people rich.

      --
      Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
    4. Re:Hmm, by gcatullus · · Score: 1

      Regarding your point on productivity, regretfully, I think that it is off base. Compare using a word processor or spread sheet program with typing on a typewriter. Touch typing is the same as teh mechanical rote memorization of button clicking. I can't touch type, but I can get by. I would have less trouble sitting down at a strangely laid out keyboard, than an accomplished touch typist. That being said, the touch typist is far more productive.

      With software, I can figure out things by looking at menus, etc., but it might take me a minute or two to "get my bearings".

      The ideal is to first learn the fundamentals and then specialize.

    5. Re:Hmm, by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1
      Your average non-IT user these days sits down at a PC and panics if they don't see the same program. Forget that they know the fundamentals and principles of how it all works, they see "OpenOffice.org" and say "But I only know Microsoft Office! This is different and I don't like different and it's going to hurt my productivity!"
      Then maybe this is why it would be a good idea for schools to not just teach students Microsoft's programs, but to expose them to different programs so they don't freak out every time they see something different.
      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    6. Re:Hmm, by PFI_Optix · · Score: 1

      Of course, then you have to find teachers willing to do this. Most teachers, like most people in any profession, aren't crazy about teaching/doing things they don't know, and (as much as I'd like to think otherwise) are just as resitant to change as your average person.

      Our labs that have MSO2k3 also run StarOffice 8, so students have a choice. They are forced to use SO8 on other systems. But we have to emphasize MSO right now because--like I said--it's the standard out there and we'd rather them learn button-pushing than nothing at all...and right now, we're having a hard time creating the third option.

      The state has come up with a really stupid new technology education program, on a side note. Apparently we're about to start teaching first graders to use spreadsheets. I just have to ask...HOW ARE THEY GOING TO USE SPREADSHEETS WHEN THEY BARELY KNOW MATH???

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    7. Re:Hmm, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Apparently we're about to start teaching first graders to use spreadsheets. I just have to ask...HOW ARE THEY GOING TO USE SPREADSHEETS WHEN THEY BARELY KNOW MATH???
      That is between Microsoft and the children. I recommend you stay out of it.
    8. Re:Hmm, by Trelane · · Score: 2, Insightful
      But we have to emphasize MSO right now because--like I said--it's the standard out there and we'd rather them learn button-pushing than nothing at all...and right now, we're having a hard time creating the third option.
      Excellent. Assuming they're freshmen/women, please tell me where I can go find MSOffice 2k9? I can't seem to find it anywhere, and it'll be what they'll be using it when they get out of school, not this 2k3 or (heavens forbid) 2k or XP. I hear the interface has changed greatly (yet again) and it's a fridge-magnet-poetry type interface in 2009, so they really need to bone up on the buttons they need to push.
      --

      --
      Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
  28. Hey everybody, Free Microsoft software! by David+Leppik · · Score: 1

    ...just threaten to standardize on ODF.

    That is the message other states should take from this.

  29. Re: reward by ltwally · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "After all, why would Microsoft reward Massachusetts for taking no action to curtail an IT policy that favored ODF and rejected Microsoft's own XML format...?"


    This isn't a reward: this is good marketing. It's marketing because it costs Microsoft next to nothing to give software away (they've already paid to create it, and MA wouldn't buy it from them -- hence, very little lost $$). However, by giving it to students, they can train future generations on their software, thus helping to lock them into Windows & Office. When these students go out into the Real World, their only software experiences will be on MS stuff -- and thus, their employers will have incentives to use MS stuff rather than retrain them for something else. It's good marketing because, as stated above, it doesn't cost MS much $$. And smart companies always jump at the chance for cheap marketing.
    --



    /dev/random
  30. tomorrow's kids - scientists or schmoos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft want sheeple to eat msn happy joy pie.
    Non free software should be banned in education for the simple reason yo ucan learn about it. Yeh you can learn todays GUI but that calling using a lightswitch learning about electricity.
    Still when no-one knows howto program in 20 years time and all the 1 laptop per child kids are the only ones with any smarts at least, ... er at least... well probably the very least.
    Do you want to be a nation of lowest common denominators ?

  31. Re:Wrong..YOU are Wrong... by bradc158 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Maybe you are really bad at teaching your students then. The "basics" of word processing, using a spreadsheet, or creating a presentation typically apply across most office suites. Rather than teaching students to memorize exactly how Microsoft wants you to do things why not teach them to think logically and learn how to "learn" and adapt.

    When I was growing up and going through grade school MS Office didn't have the monopoly it does now. I learned on Word Perfect, a bit on Lotus products, and some other package on an old Apple. Today, unfortunately, I have the great pleasure of having to work with MS Office all the time. I am still able to do my job, and quit well. So did not learning MS Office specifically in high school disadvantage me? Absolutely not!

    Teach your students...don't brainwash them

  32. Bribing the govt is perfectly legal in Mass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Since the effective ownership of Massachusetts is well-entrenched in the east coast organized crime families and has been for more than 100 years, it should not be surprising at all that bribery of the state and local government agencies is not only commonplace, rather it's expected if you wish to do any business there. BTW, bribery is still technically against the law up there, on the books, but it is strictly taboo to enforce those laws against any of the "players" and any of their business associates.

  33. Wrong, the children LOST! by mangu · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Their schools are now going to have some money that would have been spent on software that can now be spent on other things to improve their education. Motives aside, is that such a bad thing?


    The schools would have a lot more than $30 million if they didn't spend any money at all on commercial software, using free software instead. Free software in schools is interesting in that it's one thing that's both better and cheaper at the same time.


    What constitutes a better education? Should children learn to push buttons, or should they learn the fundamentals? Using MS-Office in schools because that's what most of them will use professionally later is like having them read the National Enquirer instead of Moby Dick.

  34. Monopoly is Its Own Reward by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft wins when it stick a new generation of kids with its software. The kids will then be on the "Microsoft track", much more likely to use their Microsoft skills to ensure more Microsoft software is bought for them, and the people they communicate with, for the rest of their lives.

    With so many colleges, Massachusetts is very influential in forming "software habits", apart from its rank as the 4th most populous state.

    If Microsoft can use those "free bags" of smack to lure the state into making Microsoft's brand of junk into law, that's a big bonus. But just getting the kids hooked is worth doing, even if they have to wait for the state to require addiction.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  35. outside section? by eck011219 · · Score: 1
    I've learned that the IT policy language hasn't been permanently defeated - its just been shifted out of sight to an "outside section" of the current budget bill.

    So is Massachusetts outsourcing laws now?

    --
    It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    1. Re:outside section? by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

      No, that's a part of the budget that says "OK, the quarter is over, we actually have $$$$$ left over. What else can we buy?" Most of the time though, it goes towards road-work. We have been quadruple over-budget (for the predicted snow-plow funds) here the last 3 winters in a row.

  36. I see the MS planted mods are out in force by gelfling · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Seriously - I am a MS stockholder and I'm voicing my disgust yet the MS planted flacks here at /. are calling me a 'troll'. Well that pretty much makes my argument for me. And trust me MS'rs I won't be holding MS any longer nor buying your products. Have a nice day.

    1. Re:I see the MS planted mods are out in force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you're just a paranoid kook. People don't have to be "MS flacks" to want to call you names, you just beg for it with your aluminium-foil-beanie-wearing conspiracy theory bollocks.

  37. No "Office" your kids learn now will be much use by Peter+Simpson · · Score: 1

    >We *wish* we could use MS Office, because that's what the students need to know when the enter the workforce.

    That would indeed be a laudable goal, if Microsoft didn't keep releasing new (and incompatible) versions of Office every few years.

    I'll bet by the time your students get out into the workplace, Office 20xx will be as different from Office 2003 as Office 2003 was from Office 2000.

    My learning curve on the basics of Office was pretty short. As was my learning curve on OpenOffice. Sure there are differences, but once you learn one, anything similar is pretty easy. My kids picked up OpenOffice right away after using Office 97.

  38. Re:speaking of self interest by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
    Actually, yes. Unlike almost anyone else on line, I use my own name, so that people can tell when I (unlike, I'm sure, many others) offer their own writing.

    How true. None of us our real name anywhere, or even provide their real email address (especially one that's obviously connected to their name).

    While I respect your decision to link your online persona with your real world identity, that stance is hardly unique - or even all that rare. In other words, don't sprain your wrist patting yourself on the back.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  39. yes, it's a disservice by m874t232 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Students are supposed to learn concepts, not specific commands (that's what vocational training is for).

    OOo is a standard modern office suite. In fact, OOo is probably a better tool for learning the concepts because many features are available more cleanly and rationally in OOo than in MS Office. Furthermore, because OOo is so similar so MS Office, students actually do effectively learn MS Office as well.

    Teaching MS Office is also a disservice because it basically puts students on a path where they will end up paying thousands of dollars over their lifetime to Microsoft, for functionality they could get for free.

  40. This is why freedom beats price. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    Proprietors will reduce their price to lock in an audience. Pursuing free and open standards is better than focusing on price or an efficient development methodology.

    Andy Updegrove asks:

    After all, why would Microsoft reward Massachusetts for taking no action to curtail an IT policy that favored ODF and rejected Microsoft's own XML format, especially after Microsoft has by all accounts lobbied so aggressively to bring about a change?

    They wouldn't and they probably aren't, but they see that they are meeting organized opposition and Microsoft can't get as far as they'd like to get based on lies. The people fighting this pro-ODF have not fallen into the trap of saying it's all about money, thus they are able to pursue an argument which no proprietor can combat: value the freedom to read, share, archive, and modify these documents any time you want, for any reason, and value these freedoms for their own sake. Don't archive your work in file formats that are underdocumented, encumbered by patents, or unavailable to the public on free terms or else you risk not being able to pursue your archival mission in the forseeable future.

  41. Re:Dean pwn3d by Sales Droid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm from MA, and the schools I went to all outfitted themselves with macs. Schools (other than colleges) don't have the budget necessary to get an IT team to set the school up in linux.

    i believe that a salesman (apple?) told you that. i do not believe it is true.

    During one of our shop's arguments with the dean (drafting, as the only windows shop we were under constant administrative fire) he actually showed us the budget charts; It would cost more to pay someone to set everything up with linux than it does to just buy something that doesn't need to be configured.

    th edean does not know what s/he's doing. imho, the dean is incompetent if this is his conclusion.

    1. standardize on hardware (mac does this, it is cheaper to do it with white box stuff).

    2. develop one image of a functional OS + apps.

    3. mirror the hard drive and install in 1,000s of computers.

    this is soooooooo much LESS expensive, it is silly.

    The cost to train everyone to use command line interface instead of the gui they were used to would take too much time out of the computer literacy course.

    is that what the sales drone told you? funny, my linux hasa gui. i guess the sales drone probably showed your dean a command line only server install and told him it was a desktop. the dean should *really* get educated before making million dollar decisions.

    In reality, with linux you can't simply set it up and leave it.

    uh, that *exactly* what you can do with it. i browse the web with a gui. i burn cds/dvds with a gui. i mount partitions with a gui. my office software is a gui. my file manager is a gui. i watch dvds with a gui.

    your dean did himself a grave disservice letting a sales droid convince him his economicly vested interest was actually the truth. it was a hockey sales pitch. i bet your dean over paid for his car, too. after all, "everyone loves this vehicle for [insert $10k over current full sticker price]"

    i do have to go to the command line to unzip or unrara password protected volumes. there may be a gui way to do it - and i just don't know it.

    use gui file manager to go to directory with zip o rrar, click F4, type "unzip [filename]" or "unrar e [filename]", click enter, enter password, click enter - DONE.

    dead easy.

    my bittorrent program is a gui. my file joiner program is a gui. my IDE is a gui.

    what is your dean talking about? what linux did the sales drone show him?

    Each new class of kids has to be taught how to use it.

    "now James, click this icon to open your word processor."

    "NO! WAAAAAAAAAAH! I WAAAAAAANT MYYYYYY MOOOOOOOOOMY! THAAAAAAAT ICOOOOOOOON IS SOOOOOOOO COOOOONFUUUUUUSING! I WAAAAAAAAANT WINDOWS!"

    come on!

    educate yourself before spewing such nonsense.

    The learning curve between windows and macs was deemed to be much smaller.

    by who? the mac has a command line, too. when doing some kinds of admin stuff, you have to drop to the command line, too.

    why is the BSD command line on the mac acceptable and the linux commandline isn't? oh, you don't know? imagine that!!!

    My school decided that having all macintosh computers would be something they could boast about.

    that's what the sales drone said, no? "buy are overpriced stuff and you will not only be able to compute, you will *feeeeeeeeeeeel* sooooooo goooooood about yourself, too." translation - fill my pocket with money and you will fill good about yourself.

    duh, i'm the dean and, duh, you must be right, mr. sales drone! duh, here's the check. can i go to the bathroom now, mr. sales drone? can i have a hall pass? prwetty pwease?

    Unfortunately, schools are required (some law, according to the dean) to pay an absolute premium for the macs. Schools get no mac discount in MA.

    given the lack of intelligence and lack of negotiating skills by your dean, they probably could charge them double. after all,

  42. Mass not the 4th most populous state by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is the 13th most populous, with less than 7 million residents.

    1. Re:Mass not the 4th most populous state by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the correction. Could I have been thinking of Massachusetts, the 4th largest state in New England?

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  43. Re:Dean pwn3d by Sales Droid by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

    I can't believe I have to say this again. I didn't do the deeming. I wasn't my decision, I'm just a student. Don't flame me like an incestous redneck. I posted what the administration gave as it's reasons for persuing IT the way it did. Don't shoot the messenger. How many adults actually know what they are doind anyways? Ever heard of the adminisphere? We probably could have bought a new lathe for the machine shop with that money, they really needed one. But, it wasn't up to me. Don't forget that our shop was the one that asked about the switch. We wantedf to explore linux. I thought it would look great as a side note in my senior project. AND YES THE NOVELL SERVER WAS HOOKED UP TO THE NET. We played unreal tournemant during lunch break. The electronics kids played starcraft. We used to stream movies all day when our teacher wasn't looking. It was later our tenure there that we realized he knew about it anyways, which sucked.

  44. future by namekuseijin · · Score: 1

    "I think it was Macintosh that originally discovered that putting your technology into the hands of your youth ensures your future."

    hmph! companies have been targetting young ones ever since Joe Camel...

    --
    I don't feel like it...
  45. Re:Dean pwn3d by Sales Droid by dragonsomnolent · · Score: 1

    Not blaming you for the decision, only for so adamantly defending it.

    --
    I got nuthin
  46. Re:Dean pwn3d by Sales Droid by ArchangelTyrael · · Score: 1

    Our school was driven by a different conflict anyways. Graphics was always so snooty, and the got all the funding (that they don't need. I refuse to believe photoshop costs the $2mill a year they got). They started the whole "up with macintosh" plague. Drafting was the only shop with windows, and every day we had to explain why macs don't run CAD stuff. Even that, I don't know about. I never tried to install cad software on a mac to see if it took it. I guess MA is bloated with money. The state just throws money at the schools and lets them play with it. So, whatever happens, chances are it will change by the next financial quarter anyways. I think of our school as better than it really is because we tie in with the community. When we are seniors, the shops get together and build houses. Drafting makes the prints, House Carpentry, Building and grounds, Electrical, Plumbing, and the rest build about 20 houses each year, and sell them for break-even to families that need them. About 3/4 of the graduationg class get a job halfway through their senior year, and spend one week at work and then one week at school. It's very impressive compared to any other school in the state. About 800 kids apply every year, even though we only take three hundred-ish.

  47. "Get 'em while they're young" doesn't work by WMD_88 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I see a lot of people here saying that MS is doing this to get the kids now so later, they stay with MS software. Well, that theory doesn't work and hasn't ever worked. One word: Macintosh. They tried this for over a decade, and what do they have to show for it? About 4% market share, if that. And this is coming from a Mac user.

    No, kids will always still buy whatever their parents get for them, which usually happens through marketing, or whatever they have at work, etc. The schools haven't had any real power over this, ever.

  48. The cost of this "gift": ~$15M USD by hotspotbloc · · Score: 3, Insightful
    TFA:

    About 42,000 of the public high schools' computers, a little fewer than half, will be able to run the software immediately. But the other 50,000 are too old to handle such new programs and will be weeded out of the system anyway, said Education Commissioner David P. Driscoll .

    So 50k machines out and say $300 per seat (IMO way too low but ...) equals $15M USD in hardware upgrade costs.

    Before people freak clearly some machines would need replacing anyways but how many could be still used if they running something like ubuntu, xubuntu (lighter system requirements than the stock ubuntu) or even pupply gnu/linux? Why not phase in the upgrades and squeak an extra year or two out of the older hardware?

    This is not a dig against MS but at the MA elected folks that agreed to this IMO costly "gift".

    --
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
  49. Re: reward by dodongo · · Score: 1
    "This isn't a reward: this is good marketing."


    Yeah, in the drug-dealer-esque "Hey, kid, want some candy" kind of way, I guess you could say it's good marketing ;)
  50. Sounds like an argument by MichaelPenne · · Score: 1

    for interface standards in productivity apps:-). Then the manufacturor of the application would have the same weight as it does in choosing a QWERTY keyboard, all the main menu items would be in the same place (though some apps. might add custom 'function' menus or more compact or extended layouts), and arguing that all students use the product of a particular software maker would make about as much sense as mandating all students use Dell keyboards:-).

    Kind of interesting, QWERTY is still the primary user interface, and such a state evolved almost entirely by accident (or due to original conditions few even think about:-).

  51. Could easily backfire... by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 1

    I remember when I went to college in (well, we won't say exactly when), IBM had given the college I attended a mainframe for free for the students to use, with about 80 terminals. Then, DEC made an issue of it because it was unfair competition, so IBM simply started charging for it instead (at least at my college, it kinda backfired on DEC)...

    Now however, IBM benefits from open source, and might just remember that they were involved in a case that could be a precident for such giveaways. Either that, or realize that the lid's now off and start giving free linux computers to schools all over again... Microsoft is not the only one who can play that particular game...

  52. Excuse me asshole by gelfling · · Score: 1

    "This blatant unethical borderline criminal behavior makes me sick. A) it's wrong and B) the fucking stock hasn't moved an inch since 1998. Who the hell do they think they're kidding anymore??"

    Excuse me flack, how is this paranoid or 'kookie'? Tell Ballmer I said hey.

  53. So, what would happen if.... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    The main reason it is not a bad thing is because most jobs in this country that aren't purely physical labor require the knowledge of Microsoft Office applications.

    So, if all schoolchildren learned OpenOffice (e.g.) instead of MS Office, then industry would stop and the American populous would be un-employable?

    I'm trying to see how you're not arguing for government subsidies for Microsoft. Would you support a Voc. Ed. auto mechanics class that only taught how to fix Toyota?

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  54. Re:The kids are the losers here. by dnissley · · Score: 1

    Open Office Download: $0.00
    Open Office License: $0.00
    Open Office Upgrades and Patches: $0.00

    Total Saved for Other Things: $0.00
    Freedom from product lock in: priceless

  55. Outside Section found by pacew · · Score: 1

    The text of the law appears to be in Section 322 of the Senate budget ... go to

    http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/senate/st02/st0250 0.htm

    and scroll way down. Here is what is says:

    SECTION 322. Said chapter 7 is hereby further amended by adding the
    following section:

    Section 57. (a) There shall be a commonwealth information technology
    expert task force, referred to in this section as the task force,
    consisting of the chief information officer of the information
    technology division, the supervisor of records, the state archivist, 2
    members to be appointed by the governor (1 of whom shall be a
    representative of the business community with experience in the
    telecommunications industry, and 1 of whom shall be a representative
    of the business community with experience in information technology),
    the state treasurer or his designee, the state secretary or his
    designee, and the state auditor or his designee. Citizen members of
    the task force shall be appointed for terms of 3 years or until a
    successor is appointed. Citizen members shall be eligible to be
    reappointed and shall serve without compensation. The supervisor of
    records shall act as the chair of the task force. The state archivist
    shall act as the task force secretary.

    (b) The task force shall make recommendations concerning government
    information technology policy and practices. The task force shall
    issue an annual report to the governor, the general court, each
    constitutional officer and to the chief information officers of each
    city and town if requested and may issue additional reports from time
    to time. The task force recommendations shall address, but not be
    limited to, the following matters: (1) procurement policies by
    commonwealth agencies, constitutional offices, and other government
    entities concerning computer hardware and software, cellular
    telephones, personal data accessories, and other information
    technology devices; (2) format and content of web pages maintained by
    commonwealth agencies, constitutional offices, and other government
    entities; and (3) software standards governing commonwealth agencies,
    constitutional offices, and other government entities.

    In offering recommendations, the task force's analysis shall include,
    but not be limited to, the following considerations:

    (1) cost-benefit analysis of proposed policies or practices;
    (2) security of proposed policies or practices from viruses, hacking,
    and other breaches; (3) the extent to which the proposed policy or
    practice results in user-friendly applications for commonwealth
    employees, business entities, and members of the public; and (4)
    proposals and options to facilitate more efficient transactions
    between commonwealth entities and the public, including on-line
    transactions.

    No agency, department or municipality shall adopt or implement any
    technology policy, practice or standard concerning information
    technology standards or systems or the procurement or use of hardware,
    software, and cellular phones and other electronic devices, without
    the affirmative approval of the task force by majority vote. Any
    policy, practice or standard concerning the creation, storage or
    archiving of documents or materials shall also be approved by the
    supervisor of public records and the records conservation board, and
    shall be certified by the state auditor as maintaining or enhancing
    the commonwealth's compliance with Section 508 of the federal
    Americans with Disabilities Act of 1973.

  56. Doesn't matter by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    They were probably already using .DOC anyway. Whether they're switching to ODF from MSXML or from MSDOC, what difference does it make? The same reason to change still remains.

    1. Re:Doesn't matter by duffbeer703 · · Score: 1

      Perception rules. All people making decisions care about it MS Office versus whatever else.

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
  57. One passes another gets passed! by jessicalandy · · Score: 1

    Even if the law did pass it does not mean that another one could not be passed to reverse it, jack abramas did this game when he got one casino closed and then he went to the one that got closed and offered to get them back in biz.