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MA Senator Decries OpenDocument Decision

An anonymous reader writes to mention a ZDNet article on Massachusetts senator Marc Pacheco's OpenDocument study. The report blasts the decision to switch to the OSS-friendly document format, saying the state's IT division didn't have the authority to make that decision and has disregarded the needs of disabled citizens. From the article: "'The process, quite frankly, was driven by one individual in a very powerful position (Kriss) issuing a memo to an individual in a less powerful position (Quinn). Then he was told to get it done and forget about any obstacles,' Pacheco said. Although OpenDocument is not yet widely used, other government entities, including Belgium, have expressed interest in OpenDocument as a standard as well."

233 comments

  1. Apples & Oranges by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Microsoft Office has built-in help for people with disabilities, such as voice synthesizers, special screen readers and enlargers, Winske said. But he said OpenDocument-based products do not yet.
    OpenDocument is a standard format for documents that anyone can use. It doesn't have anything to do with voice synthesizing or special screen readers. That's the editor/viewing application's responsibility or capability.

    You are witnessing ignorance when someone claims a format is insufficient because a suite of applications supports more functionality.

    The real irony is that someone will probably write a plug-in for MS products to use OpenDocument anyway.

    Microsoft's eager to offer plug-ins for nearly any other proprietary file format. It just seems that the second someone tries to give something they worked on away for free, Microsoft starts criticizing it as being too slow for the user.
    'The process, quite frankly, was driven by one individual in a very powerful position (Kriss) issuing a memo to an individual in a less powerful position (Quinn). Then he was told to get it done and forget about any obstacles,'
    And what's wrong with that? Happens all the time. You put a person in a powerful position and they make executive decisions. They are busy so they delegate it to someone else. I'm waiting for the reason that this was a bad move. Do you expect a board to discuss and delegate on every issue down to what file format is used by the government? Do you want the process to require that much time and resource?

    Nobody's crapping bricks when the sewage administrator is mandating standardized units being used on reports for the city's waterways and sewers now, are they? Won't somebody please think about the vertically disabled people that like to report their height in centimeters, not inches so that it's a larger number and they feel taller?

    <sarcasm>My god, the state's IT Division is trying to advise the state government on what file format to adopt. What is this world coming to?</sarcasm>

    After delivering his speech, John Winske shook hands with Steve Ballmer & was seen struggling to drag away a visibly overladened burlap sack with a giant green '$' on the front of it.
    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Apples & Oranges by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 3, Insightful
      OpenDocument is a standard format for documents that anyone can use. It doesn't have anything to do with voice synthesizing or special screen readers. That's the editor/viewing application's responsibility or capability.

      The point is, does OpenOffice or whatever apps are currently available that use the OpenDoc format has the same level of help for people with disabilities as Office? Obviously it's (mostly) the app not the format that addresses this, but it's a valid bitch: Does OpenOffice or any of the other semi-mature non-Microsoft applications have support for disabilities at or better than MS Office? Most people who are not completely blinded by ideology will say honestly, "not yet".

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    2. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      OpenDocument is a standard format for documents that anyone can use. It doesn't have anything to do with voice synthesizing or special screen readers. That's the editor/viewing application's responsibility or capability.

      No, your just wrong. Obviously all IT decisions like these should be left to senators.

    3. Re:Apples & Oranges by Kadin2048 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are witnessing ignorance when someone claims a format is insufficient because a suite of applications supports more functionality.

      Years of using programs like Microsoft Word and other proprietary applications have gotten people used to thinking that applications and document formats have a 1:1 relationship. It's so rare, outside of a few widely-accepted interchange formats (txt, jpg, gif, bmp, etc.) to be able to use a single document format across a number of applications, without the format "belonging" to one particular program, that people can't separate the two anymore.

      People criticize software for things they don't like in the format -- even though many programs today (including OO) can use many different document formats -- and they criticize the format for things they don't like in whatever's perceived to be "its" application.

      People who are pushing Open Standards need to be more clear about the difference between a format and the software that uses it. 'OpenDocument' is a format, OpenOffice.org is just one of the many applications that can use that format.

      That said, the MA politician in the article is a first-class tool, so I wouldn't count on ever educating his type, except through large wads of cash. I wouldn't be surprised to find he's getting some sort of kickback from Redmond at some level, or has a personal grudge against the IT office, or is hoping to make this into some bit of a power play. I doubt very much he gives two squirts of piss about the actual issue; it's just "an issue" to him.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    4. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So what you're saying is: by installing a third-party ODF format plugin, Microsoft Word loses some of its accessibility features.

      You're kidding right? Otherwise, I have to say prove it. In our "blinded by ideology" universe, Microsoft Word has the exact same accesibility options as Microsoft Word.

    5. Re:Apples & Oranges by Atmchicago · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You are absolutely correct that the Senator is talking about a red herring.

      You can also argue with him, claiming that those who cannot afford the money to purchase either OSX or Windows and a copy of MS Office are effectively 'disabled' and incapable of composing compatible documents.

      --

      You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    6. Re:Apples & Oranges by tinkerghost · · Score: 1
      That said, the MA politician in the article is a first-class tool, so I wouldn't count on ever educating his type, except through large wads of cash. I wouldn't be surprised to find he's getting some sort of kickback from Redmond at some level, or has a personal grudge against the IT office, or is hoping to make this into some bit of a power play. I doubt very much he gives two squirts of piss about the actual issue; it's just "an issue" to him.
      2 or 3 weeks ago MS declared they were giving $30M of equipment to the states education dept. Guess it bought them a nice report.
    7. Re:Apples & Oranges by El+Torico · · Score: 4, Informative
      I wouldn't be surprised to find he's getting some sort of kickback from Redmond at some level, or has a personal grudge against the IT office, or is hoping to make this into some bit of a power play.


      I thought of that too, so I looked up his contributors at http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/campaigns/m arc_r_pacheco.asp?cycle=02, but I didn't see Microsoft or its employees as contributors. However, Information Week has an interesting article at http://www.informationweek.com/shared/printableArt icle.jhtml?articleID=172900251 that states that Microsoft gained support of both State Senator Marc Pacheco and Massachusetts Secretary of State William Galvin. It doesn't state how it gained their support.
      I suspect that these two are pandering to a special interest group (in this case, the disabled) to gain votes in upcoming elections. Of course, pandering to Microsoft may benefit them too.

      --
      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
    8. Re:Apples & Oranges by terevos · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also, just because OpenOffice is the de-facto standard for reading/writing the OpenDocument format doesn't mean that it's the only thing you can use. And while I don't think there is a good OSS wordprocessor that does support this, there are plugins for MS Office to import and export OpenDocument. I believe they are free as well.

      So the good thing about OpenDocument is that everyone can read the format. Even if you're a user with disabilities and you need to use MS Office.

      And eventually, there will be a reader/writer for OpenDocument that does have good support for the disabled.

    9. Re:Apples & Oranges by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Come on! Give the guy a break. He's a politian who actually got an issue related to technology correct. Thats something you don't see every day! Sure his terminology was a little off, but I'm sure most of the /. crowd could easily mess up political terminology like contribution, kick-back, bribe, soft money, etc. We cannnot all be experts in everything. I at least have to give him credit for this issue with the change being correct (at least for now) even if he did make a small slip in terminology which I've even seen made here.

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
    10. Re:Apples & Oranges by Abu+Hurayrah · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's kind of ironic. I must be part of the audience for which this senator is attempted to advocate. I was working on a Word document for a coworker that was a glorifed form. She couldn't get it to not bullet her paragraphs as individual list items. After struggling with it for a while, I was able to overcome this amazing "feature" by randomly deleting text until it stopped auto-formatting the paragraph (I achieved this by pasting the text into Notepad, removing some funny characters, clearing out the form field, and re-pasting the text back in).

      If it weren't for Microsoft's helpfulness and amazing features, a task like that would have only taken a minute, and I would have been able to get back to my own tasks much more quickly. This is something that Open Source Software doesn't understand about government contracts - one of the purposes of government employment is to create jobs. If you start making software more efficient & easy to use, instead of bloated & intimidating, things like certification, overtime, & over-employment become relics of the past.

      OSS needs to take a page from Microsoft's book - they've been doing this for a long time...they know what they're doing. Heck, Microsoft has gotten so good at getting money from large, wealthy entities that Warren Buffett felt left out of the action, and decided to go ahead and give Bill Gates all his money too.

      --
      Kindness is not to be found in anything but that it adds to its beauty...
    11. Re:Apples & Oranges by southpolesammy · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the population of a previously vacant warehouse in Worcester with approximately 500,000 obsolete MS butterfly keyboards.

      On a related note, Mitch Bainwol and Cary Sherman were seen chuckling hearily upon hearing about the donation ...

      --
      Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
    12. Re:Apples & Oranges by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 5, Insightful
      [D]oes OpenOffice or whatever apps are currently available that use the OpenDoc format has the same level of help for people with disabilities as Office?

      Does Microsoft Office (the only application which fully supports the Microsoft Office format) offer the same level of help for people without Microsoft Office on their machine as OpenDoc apps do?? Do you really think this world (or Mass. even) has more "people with disabilities" than it has "people without Microsoft Office"?

      Most people who are not completely blinded by their own addiction to Microsoft will honestly say "no".

      You're living in the here and now. In ten years or so, even you will be disabled when it comes to reading Microsoft Office documents produced in the current version of Microsoft Office unless those documents have been converted to whatever new format Microsoft will be pushing then.

      Ten years ago, your computer was (likely) running Win95 (because Win98 won't be available for another two years yet). Documents produced in 1996 by whatever version of Word Microsoft was pushing back then might still be mostly readable in the current version. But if they aren't, good luck finding a copy of the OS and a copy of the application which created them to use.

      Now think about 20 years ago. 50 years? We're not talking about some school-kid's homework, we're talking about Public Records which belong to the residents of Mass. in 2106 as much as the Mass. Constitution belongs to the residents of the Commonwealth today.

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

    13. Re:Apples & Oranges by BobPaul · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure someone already did write a plugin. If I'm not mistaken, it was on Slashdot about a month ago. They wrote it, but just hadn't released it to the general public yet.

      If MS Office can open ODF then people with special needs can just use that to open the ODF file and everyone else can use whatever they want that supports ODF. That's the beauty of an open format.

      Massachusettes didn't pass a law saying all citizens and government employees of the state have to use OpenOffice, just that the state has to use ODF for public documents so anyone can read them. Maybe if MS wasn't such a duche about how they handled (licensed) their XML format, this wouldn't be an issue.

    14. Re:Apples & Oranges by mspohr · · Score: 3, Informative
      Duh!

      I just took a look at my Ubuntu installation and I can turn on "Assistive Technology Support" which includes a screen reader, screen magnifier, and on-screen keyboard.

      Of course, these tools work with all applications in the OS, not just the office suite. But is surely works for OpenOffice, etc.

      This bozo politician seems to be saying that Open Documents don't have these features but clearly they do.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    15. Re:Apples & Oranges by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Hey, at least he's honest, by the Heinleinian definition:

      Once he's bought, he stays bought.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    16. Re:Apples & Oranges by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 4, Funny
      OpenDocument is a standard format for documents that anyone can use. It doesn't have anything to do with voice synthesizing or special screen readers. That's the editor/viewing application's responsibility or capability.

      Oh, please. You can't expect politicians to have any comprehension of the issues that they make world-changing decisions about.

    17. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      After delivering his speech, John Winske shook hands with Steve Ballmer & was seen struggling to drag away a visibly overladened burlap sack with a giant green '$' on the front of it.

      Next on staqe was Gene Simmons claiming he was going to sue Apple and the state for infringing on his copyright by using a money bag with a '$' on it. http://www.forbes.com/2006/05/20/gene-simmons-jobs _cx_tr_06work_0523simmons.html

    18. Re:Apples & Oranges by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's eager to offer plug-ins for nearly any other proprietary file format.

      Actually, they pretty much only support legacy formats. You won't find modern WordPerfect or Lotus converters in there either.

      I think what the ODF Supporter miss is that right now there is basically zero demand for ODF from MS Office customers. Which is too bad, because ODF is a good idea, but a couple random state governments is not a real substantial customer base.

      If you walk up to Microsoft and demand support for Random Obscure Unused Format "or else", it's perfectly natural they'll tell you to fuck off. You're negotating from a position of very little strength. Ultimately, MS just called MA's bluff, figuring they couldn't/wouldn't move off MS Office, and politically just totally outplayed them.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
    19. Re:Apples & Oranges by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is what really pisses me off about current word processors. They try do read your mind and do everything for you. 99% of the time they get it wrong. I think there's some good automation tools such as completing long words for you, and correcting some spelling mistakes. However when they try to format your document for you they usually get it wrong, and it's extremely hard to get it to accept your way of doing things. The best word processor I ever used was Wordperfect 5.1. Everything could be done via the keyboard, and you didn't waste half your time worrying about formatting, because you couldn't see it anyway. Also, it used the entire screen for displaying your document, instead of cluttering up your screen with icons, scroll bars, and other things that don't really need to be there.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    20. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I think it's a shame that you criticize Mass.
      After all, it has some of the most affordable
      legislators in the whole nation.

    21. Re:Apples & Oranges by Chris_Jefferson · · Score: 1
      OpenDocument is a standard format for documents that anyone can use. It doesn't have anything to do with voice synthesizing or special screen readers. That's the editor/viewing application's responsibility or capability.

      You are witnessing ignorance when someone claims a format is insufficient because a suite of applications supports more functionality.

      No, he is making a valid point. Why change to a new standard when your current standard has better software which supports disabled people?

      I'm not saying that the change shouldn't occur, just I feel you have unjustly claimed this comment was wrong. He says "OpenDocument-based products do not yet". Thats exactly right. Of course you can say "Well, I'm sure in a year or two this will be fixed, or there will be a poor Office Opendocument converter", but that doesn't help anyone now does it?

      --
      Combination - fun iPhone puzzling
    22. Re:Apples & Oranges by timeOday · · Score: 1
      It's so rare, outside of a few widely-accepted interchange formats (txt, jpg, gif, bmp, etc.) to be able to use a single document format across a number of applications, without the format "belonging" to one particular program, that people can't separate the two anymore.
      To be fair, exchanging read/write documents in a complex format is not at all easy. Even web browsers aren't fully compatible in simplay displaying documents! One thing is almost certain: word processors never quite work right with anything but the single format they read and write natively. "Filters" are always a hack, because different formats do not match the underlying features of the editor equally well.
    23. Re:Apples & Oranges by tsm_sf · · Score: 5, Funny

      The point is, does OpenOffice or whatever apps are currently available that use the OpenDoc format has the same level of help for people with disabilities as Office? Obviously it's (mostly) the app not the format that addresses this, but it's a valid bitch: Does OpenOffice or any of the other semi-mature non-Microsoft applications have support for disabilities at or better than MS Office? Most people who are not completely blinded by ideology will say honestly, "not yet".

      MS won't ever support a standard that directs interest away from themselves unless someone holds their feet to the fire. It's not suprising at all, or even particularly "evil". Like any dumb beast, they just need a kick in the nuts every now and then to point them in the right direction.

      Oh, if you're a person w/ disabilities... why the hell are you not using a Mac? Don't make us suffer because of your masochistic tendencies, ok?

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    24. Re:Apples & Oranges by michrech · · Score: 1

      This isn't as "insightful" as it appears. There are plenty computers ("PC's", sorry "Apple" guys) that can be had for a couple hundred bucks that will run Windows (hell, they COME with it) and Office. Monitors often come free (though they are usually 15" CRT's or, lately, 15" LCD's). As for office? I know several people who have Office 2000 (before they started requiring 'activation'). You can get it quite easily over many P2P networks and probably even via the different torrent "web sites" (IE: piratebay).

      While there will be some "poor" people who decide food/shelter are more important, I have seen (in my 12 years as a field technician) waaay too many of them buy a computer or, in many cases, obtain one from a family/friend that has upgraded, to shoot your "are too poor to afford" arguement.

      As I said, there are bound to be a few exceptions to what I post, however I have a feeling they are quite few and very far between.

      Note, though, that I am NOT advocating in favor of MS. I use it at home, because I have to or I don't play the games I like, and I use it at work, because it's mandated. I operate my own "server" at home that hosts a Gallery 2 installation that runs Gentoo Linux (used to host my own email, too, 'cept my IP changed often enough that sometimes the dyndns updater didn't catch it right away and I'd lose some mail).

      Well, I've rambled on long enough..

      You can also argue with him, claiming that those who cannot afford the money to purchase either OSX or Windows and a copy of MS Office are effectively 'disabled' and incapable of composing compatible documents.

      --
      bork bork bork!
    25. Re:Apples & Oranges by Smallpond · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here is the MS list of accessibility features in Word. Which of these are not available in OO?

    26. Re:Apples & Oranges by Cylix · · Score: 1

      Oh so unfair...

      The web is borked due to standards being implemented incorrectly and browser makers having to make the decisions on supporting X widely used feature or sticking to the standard. I'm sure if you want to read up fully there are a billion rants simply a search away.

      When it comes down to ODF...

      It's not precisely proprietary so anyone can make a filter to import to their native feature set. If the software vendor simply can't figure out how to make it work with their own software then perhaps they should outsource their programming division. *ducks*

      It's not like there are a billion wild ways to format text.

      However, importing embdedded spread sheets and other non-native word processor formats could very well yield severe incompatabilities. Then again, simple tables and graphics are not so uncommon.

      None the less, I've had issues opening Microsoft documents from various versions and in the end the only fix was to move all of our offices to a single version of word. In some places we have had individuals export their final work as PDF to ensure readability.

      It's crazy yes, but to say ODF is a bad idea is probably even crazier.

      I rather welcome the day when I can ask someone to simply save and/or export as ODF.

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    27. Re:Apples & Oranges by johansalk · · Score: 1

      What always amazes me is how cheaply those politicians can be bought. Cheap whores.

    28. Re:Apples & Oranges by flacco · · Score: 2
      MS has your point covered though. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?fa milyid=95E24C87-8732-48D5-8689-AB826E7B8FDF&displa ylang=en
      Cool! i guess we're all good to go.

      $sudo dpkg -i wdviewer.exe
      Password:
      dpkg-deb: `wdviewer.exe' is not a debian format archive
      dpkg: error processing wdviewer.exe (--install):
      subprocess dpkg-deb --control returned error exit status 2
      Errors were encountered while processing:
      wdviewer.exe

      hey wait a minute. it's not working.

      --
      pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
    29. Re:Apples & Oranges by Zeinfeld · · Score: 1
      The point is, does OpenOffice or whatever apps are currently available that use the OpenDoc format has the same level of help for people with disabilities as Office? Obviously it's (mostly) the app not the format that addresses this, but it's a valid bitch:

      The more relevant question would be: "why such a short time?"

      Clearly Microsoft could support OpenDoc but the timescale was clearly choosen to make sure any support would come too late.

      This is an old trick in government procurement (and the term is meant in both senses). You have a contractor who you want to throw a plump contract to, you stack the requirements of the RFP so only that company can bid. Do a search on Shirlinton limo for more examples.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    30. Re:Apples & Oranges by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 2, Funny

      He's a Republican so he would retort that those without money should be ignored and not heard anyway.

    31. Re:Apples & Oranges by Alchemar · · Score: 1

      I can't tell you how many people I have help with a computer problem think that little blue E is the internet. If the icon gets moved they think the computer is no longer on the internet. I have even had people that would open IE before checking mail, because they knew they couldn't check their email unless they were "on the internet" That is what microsoft has been shooting for since the release of IE, and except for a few minor fines, it worked. Now it is time to try it with everything else.

    32. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the harsh political reality that sometimes, a group of people is so small that it's not worth the effort to go for their votes.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    33. Re:Apples & Oranges by deKernel · · Score: 1

      You sir are a complete ass with a statement like that.

    34. Re:Apples & Oranges by XMyth · · Score: 1

      Would've said that in my post, but I thought it was implied...

    35. Re:Apples & Oranges by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      You can get it quite easily over many P2P networks and probably even via the different torrent "web sites" (IE: piratebay).

      That is only true up to the time of widespread DRM implementation though, if it ends up working as promised.

      While there will be some "poor" people who decide food/shelter are more important, I have seen (in my 12 years as a field technician) waaay too many of them buy a computer or, in many cases, obtain one from a family/friend that has upgraded, to shoot your "are too poor to afford" arguement.

      That is a good point and also reflects my experience.

      That being said, I would still like to see lower income earners a free PC and net connection. I feel it has become such a necessary thing in life that it should be given to poorer people by tax dollars.

      I feel this way even as a Libertarian who desires minimal government. At the very least, the internet allows you to pay bills and interact with government agencys etc. without having to buy a car or pay for public transport to do it in person. There are even some small pollution benifits from that!

    36. Re:Apples & Oranges by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      Not to that mention the technology Word was very immature 10 years ago. Even my own software products will not read formats for their own beta versions.

    37. Re:Apples & Oranges by flacco · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Welcome to the harsh political reality that sometimes, a group of people is so small that it's not worth the effort to go for their votes.

      like blind people?

      --
      pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
    38. Re:Apples & Oranges by damiam · · Score: 1

      Have you actually tested it with Openoffice? Not having a Linux install on hand, I can't be sure, but I'm pretty sure those tools are only for GTK apps (which OO isn't really, although it tries).

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    39. Re:Apples & Oranges by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Immature yes, beta quality yes, beta? arguably... However it was not sold as beta, it was sold as a fully blown production ready app, and countless millions believed the marketting hype and bought it.
      That said, if your advertising something as production quality then you lose the excuse of it being beta.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    40. Re:Apples & Oranges by miro+f · · Score: 1

      erm, I'm sorry. but he didn't get the terminology wrong, he got the entire issue completely wrong.

      This is not a "small slip in terminology"

      --
      being vague is almost as cool as doing that other thing...
    41. Re:Apples & Oranges by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      The term 'beta' was bad usage by me, but if you comapred say MS Word 2.0 with the current version, you'd see that the features are so vastly different that it would make importing a real pain to code.

      For a start, imagine some of the filthy hard-coded rubbish that was in the original Word products, and also imagine how badly the formats would have been tied to program architecture. Also things like the 64K memory bank limits for the old x86 architecture may have had consideration during file format design.

      So many other things like fonts and the complexity of font-hinting, general changes in design philosophy, maintaining the old v2.0 importer and troubleshooting customers who are having problems importing.

      Plus the fact that it is 10 years old. Even my TV/Entertainment system can't play media 10 or 15 years old.

    42. Re:Apples & Oranges by revengance · · Score: 1

      Better is a subjective word. I would think that my all time favourite Word processor is Wordperfect 6.

    43. Re:Apples & Oranges by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're missing the point: What if, in 2106, people are running Debian instead of Windows? Having a wdviewer.exe binary is no better than having an old CD of MS Office (or a copy of Scribble! on a floppy disk) that doesn't run on available hardware.

    44. Re:Apples & Oranges by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

      I don't know, but who says you have to use OO to read/write ODF documents? Heck, with ODF standardized, it suddenly becomes feasible to market a word processor that is designed specifically for the blind.

      All this talk about a lack of accessibility features being a reason to stay with MS Office formats is extremely short-sighted.

    45. Re:Apples & Oranges by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 1

      Saying that programs which use ODF don't currently have accessiblity functionality for the handicapped on par with Office is what he should have said and that is the issue some have with the change. Unless there is an ODF using program I'm not aware of (I'm sure there are enough small ones its certainly possible), the ones I've used do have an issue here and it is a real concern that needs to be addressed.

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
    46. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Yes. Open Source projects never die and are always maintained to the latest standards, as a quick look at somewhere like SourceForge will quickly verify.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    47. Re:Apples & Oranges by mspohr · · Score: 1

      I had not tried it but I just did enable the Assistive Technology Support in Ubuntu and the screen magnifier does work with OpenOffice. Good to know that as my eyesight gets worse, I can rely on really big print to read the screen.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    48. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who cares ? seriously OpenOffice or Microsoft may be dead in ten year, thats NOT THE FUCKING POINT, the file format for office is closed, for ODF it is not, so in 2106 and archivists need access to the data they can pay someone to write a translator or viewer for ODF, for office they are fucked, you can even read some propritery document formats from ten years ago, and the latest and greatest version of office has problems with documents created with the last version, how do you think thats going to pan out in
      a hundred years?

    49. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Oh, please. This one is getting as old as the Micro$oft joke. There is absolutely no danger that in future we won't be able to read documents in a Microsoft proprietary format that's used all over the world by businesses and governments everywhere. Countless applications, including OpenOffice, already have importers that do a comparable job to Microsoft's own software, and the lack of an official spec has done them little harm. Your argument is 100% pure FUD.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    50. Re:Apples & Oranges by LeDopore · · Score: 1

      Dear lynx_user_abroad,

      I support your point of view, but I'd like to point out that while Linux users *could* buy a copy of Windows and Office, people with disabilities can't choose not to have them.

      --
      Expected time to finish is 1 hour and 60 minutes.
    51. Re:Apples & Oranges by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      in western socities disabled people generally get certain special treatment legislated because thats how most western societies have decided to deal with the problem of disabled people.

      getting rid of them is not acceptable from most peoples moral position (mine included) and treating them as patiants who could never usefully contribute to society would probablly cost us even more (this still has to be done with the worst cases of course).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    52. Re:Apples & Oranges by mpe · · Score: 1

      That said, the MA politician in the article is a first-class tool, so I wouldn't count on ever educating his type, except through large wads of cash.

      It might be easier to identify the politicans who arn't. Especially with respect to the US.

    53. Re:Apples & Oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm blind. I use OpenDocument stuff all the time. Its easier then word. These guys are idiots.

    54. Re:Apples & Oranges by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Firstly, the feature set 10 years ago would have been much simpler, making conversion easier...

      But on the other hand, if you can't guarantee an ability to still read the files in 10 years then your product is unsuitable for many serious uses.
      Not only that, but anyone foolish enough to use such a product without receiving such guarantees deserves to lose access to their data.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    55. Re:Apples & Oranges by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 1
      I'd like to point out that while Linux users *could* buy a copy of Windows and Office, people with disabilities can't choose not to have them.

      Define "disabilitiy".

      Take your time. It's often very hard for people who think they aren't to put into words just exactly what one is.

      Could I define someone as disabled because they do not choose to see our point-of-view?

      Being blind, for example, only affects those people who choose to engage in activities for which good eyesight is needed. Since life does not guarantee participation in those activities to anyone, one could hardly list a desire to participate as a 'disability'. Some would define it this way.

      Life dealt each of us a hand. Others may label us as 'disabled', but that generally means they wouldn't want to have been dealt the hand we were dealt. Most people understand and accept the hand they were dealt and strive to make the best of it. (Some don't, but I sense they'd complain no matter what hand they were dealt.) For the rest of us, "disabled" is a lable we apply to others for our own purposes. We might label a person as "disabled" as a reminder to ourselves that "there, but for the grace of God, go I".

      If we're going to make any use of that "disabled" label at all, we have to start by accepting that to the extent that life has made us differently-abled, we are all "disabled". If we're going to use "disabled" as anything more than a derogatory, or worse, a marketing statement, then "disabled" cannot be about what someone else can or cannot do; it must be about the choices we make and the choices we are willing to let others make in pursuit of their own abilities.

      I made the choice to not buy/not use Windows. Does that make me weak, or strong? Microsoft made the choice to not support the OpenDoc format, and through their choice, chose to disown everyone who made the choice I made. Does that make them weak, or strong?

      I made the choice to pursue a solution which was right for me. They made the choice to enslave those who do not accept the choices made for them.

      A statement like "they could always just choose to buy our product" is no better than saying "You know, you wouldn't have to suffer with being blind if you just give up and die today.".

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

  2. Check this senator's campaign contributions. by base3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Bet you'll see a contribution from the industry, perhaps laundered through an astroturf organization of some kind. Or maybe they've gone back to the old fashioned envelopes full of $100 bills.

    --
    One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    1. Re:Check this senator's campaign contributions. by MyOtherUIDis3digits · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I totally agree with you. Luckily, you didn't get moderated "flamebait" like I did when I alluded to the same thing in the Belgian story a few days ago.

      --
      Ignore anything I said above, I actually agree with everything you believe - mod accordingly.
    2. Re:Check this senator's campaign contributions. by Ocular+Magic · · Score: 1

      Here's an interesting link. http://www.cio.com/archive/040106/opensource.html? action=print

      "Money in Politics

      The battle over proprietary versus open documents software began heating up well before the ITD's September announcement. Observers say that lobbyists on both sides of the issue turned up on Beacon Hill earlier in 2005 and met with Galvin, Sen. Pacheco, chairman of the Senate Committee on Post Audit and Oversight, and others.

      In July 2005, a registered Microsoft lobbyist, Maureen Glynn, donated $200 to Pacheco, according to campaign finance records. Glynn, who lobbies for other companies as well, also gave Pacheco $200 in 2003. In January 2004, Mario Rebello, then a Microsoft employee and lobbyist, donated $200 to Pacheco's campaign."

      and

      "The Initiative for Software Choice, a trade organization with close ties to Microsoft, also wrote a letter to Pacheco a few days before the October 2005 hearing, warning officials against the move toward open standards. "The ODF policy creates a biased procurement mandate for open-source vendors to the detriment of all other competitors," the letter stated.

      At the same time, Sun and IBM were also lobbying in favor of ODF, including a major letter-writing campaign on the part of Sun employees in Massachusetts. Public records show that Microsoft paid Massachusetts lobbyists salaries totaling $69,200 in 2005, while Sun, which has a major facility in Burlington, paid $60,000 to its lobbyist. IBM paid its lobbyist $15,000. Employees from all three companies have also given contributions to various political campaigns in Massachusetts. (Since Jan. 1, 2003, Sun employees have given a total of $4,675 to Massachusetts candidates, while IBM employees have donated $12,375. Employees of Microsoft, which has significantly fewer workers in the state, contributed a total of $450.)

      "A decision by any Microsoft employee to contribute is a personal decision," says Ginny Terzano, spokeswoman for Microsoft. "The industry, including Microsoft, has a very politically active employee base.""

    3. Re:Check this senator's campaign contributions. by TheBogie · · Score: 1
      You're right. The Disability Policy Consortium have a strong lobby in Washington. They probably backed up a truck of cash to the front of his building and started shoveling bills into his office.

      Who knew that using OpenOffice is like parking in a handicapped spot?

    4. Re:Check this senator's campaign contributions. by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      Luckily, you didn't get moderated "flamebait" ...

      So the senator 'perhaps' takes bribes from 'astroturf' groups 'of some kind'. I agree, it is not flamebait. It is 'wild guesses about corruption for politicians you dislike'.

  3. Help for Disabilities? by neonprimetime · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft Office has built-in help for people with disabilities, such as voice synthesizers, special screen readers and enlargers, Winske said. But he said OpenDocument-based products do not yet.

    Keyword being yet ... but when it does ... it will be standardized ... reusable ... and in the long run more useful than the crap MSFT slapped together.

    1. Re:Help for Disabilities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But until that point, there no reason to have stated the intention to switch over.

      That's analogous to moving out of a place that has a wheelchair accessible sidewalk and into a place without one. Sure, the city could build a ramp for the person for his new house. But it's not there yet.

      Just because something can happen, potentially, does not make it a reality, now.

    2. Re:Help for Disabilities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess ... when speaking of the Iraq war then ... your belief was that we shouldn't have stated our pledge to remove Sadam until after attacked our country? Sometimes forward thinking is good ... it forces the issue ... and gets things accomplished.

    3. Re:Help for Disabilities? by ottawanker · · Score: 5, Informative
      .. also isn't the voice synthesizer and special screen reader and enlargers part of Windows, and not part of Microsoft Office? I have those programs installed, as they're part of the 'Accessibility Pack' or whatever?

      Check out the Windows XP Accessibility Resources website:

      Windows XP Accessibility Utilities:

              * Magnifier--a display utility that makes the computer screen more readable by creating a separate window that displays a magnified portion of the screen.
              * Narrator--a text-to-speech utility that reads what is displayed on the screen--the contents of the active window, menu options, or text that has been typed.
              * On-Screen Keyboard--displays a virtual keyboard on the computer screen that allows people to type data by using a pointing device or joystick.
    4. Re:Help for Disabilities? by rcamera · · Score: 1

      ie is not a standards compliant browser yet... but when it is... it will be the most compliant browser on the market. better than firefox, opera, and even lynx... to that end, i recommend ie to everyone i know.

      --
      Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream
    5. Re:Help for Disabilities? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Interesting point... I think you've just summarized the viewpoint of the majority of the people in the known world. Forward thinking is ALWAYS good... ignorantly acting on propoganda fed to you by someone with a hidden motive isn't.

    6. Re:Help for Disabilities? by DesertWolf0132 · · Score: 1

      Glad I read ahead as I was just about to post the same thing. Now if we could only get an accessibility program for idiots...I mean Senators...

      --
      No animals were harmed in the making of this sig.
      Well, there was that one puppy, but he is all better now.
    7. Re:Help for Disabilities? by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1
      From the startup message box of Microsoft Narrator:

      Most users with visual impairments will need a screen reader with higher functionality for daily use
    8. Re:Help for Disabilities? by jbtule · · Score: 2, Funny
      What are you talking about, office has a ton of useful accessiblity features built in such as:
      • zoom for readability
      • reading layout view
      • keyboard shortcuts
      • and don't forget scroll with your mouse
      I'd like to see Open Office add those features!
    9. Re:Help for Disabilities? by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      Forward thinking is ALWAYS good... ignorantly acting on propoganda fed to you by someone with a hidden motive isn't.

      Here's a tough one for that logic (still on the subject of Iraq):

      "Saddam (Hussein) must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said.

      Clinton also stated that, while other countries also had weapons of mass destruction, Hussein is in a different category because he has used such weapons against his own people and against his neighbors.

      Source: CNN, a few years before the invasion.

    10. Re:Help for Disabilities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the Accessability Pack is part of Windows and not just office then it should work if you run Open Office on Window, shouldn't it? Doesn't that solve the problem?

    11. Re:Help for Disabilities? by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      What's tough about it? Makes perfect sense to me.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    12. Re:Help for Disabilities? by rs232 · · Score: 1

      "Microsoft Office has built-in .. such as voice synthesizers, special screen readers and enlargers,"

      Technically speaking such support is a function of the OS and as such is transparient to the application. As for 'OpenDocument-based products do not yet` this is also inaccurate. Makes one wonders just where he is getting his fastfacts from?

      The Gnopernicus project .. allow low-vision and blind users access to standard .. applications via speech and braille output ..

      Why a Windows-Only Argument Is A Bad Idea

      Open Source Accessibility

      --
      davecb5620@gmail.com
  4. Campaign contributions by gvc · · Score: 4, Informative

    Campaign finance records show that those state officials who most vocally opposed the plan received campaign contributions from Microsoft lobbyists. For instance, state Sen. Marc Pacheco, who held hearings on the move to OpenDocument Format at which he voiced opposition to the plan, received $600 in campaign contributions from Microsoft lobbyists over the past three years.

        -- http://www.cio.com/archive/040106/opensource.html? action=print

    Sure, $600 is only a token, but its the thought that counts.

    1. Re:Campaign contributions by mrxak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For a lowly state senator, $600 is a fairly decent sum of money.

    2. Re:Campaign contributions by Gallenod · · Score: 1

      $600? Since when do state senators cost more than Congressmen?

      --

      TLR

      A man no more knows his destiny than a tea leaf knows the history of the East India Company
    3. Re:Campaign contributions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $600 over three years? No way is that enough to buy a senator.

      Juffo-Wup fills my fibers and I grow turgid. Violent action ensues.

    4. Re:Campaign contributions by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Question: Did microsoft contribute money to those that did not oppose the plan also?

      Further, why shouldn't someone contribute to those legislators that agree with your position> That's how all campaign finance works. You support those you agree with, either financially or with voting or both.

    5. Re:Campaign contributions by mshiltonj · · Score: 1

      ...Sen. Marc Pacheco, who held hearings on the move to OpenDocument Format at which he voiced opposition to the plan, received $600 in campaign contributions from Microsoft lobbyists...

      He can use that to buy a Linux license from SCO.

    6. Re:Campaign contributions by brian0918 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Further, why shouldn't someone contribute to those legislators that agree with your position"

      Because then the politician places the interests of his contributors above the interests of the people he represents. This is why campaigns should be government funded--to remove the incentive to misuse your position (of course, some will still misuse it). Are there any members of Congress who actually represent their constituents anymore?

    7. Re:Campaign contributions by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      I didn't know that a state senator was going so cheaply these days. Maybe buying off an Alaskan state senator might be cheaper than a high-priced Eskimo hooker.

    8. Re:Campaign contributions by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      Chances are the senator would be more "experienced" too. :-)

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    9. Re:Campaign contributions by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      That is the stated reason that campaigns are government subsidized. But the effect is far from it. The effect of government subsidized campaigns has been to strengthen the two-party system by favoring incumbents. Since it so heavily stabilizes incumbent seats, one might surmise that that is the intended purpose.

      If people contribute to legislators that support their position, the legislators aren't bound to the contributors: they will put pro-contributor positions forth as a consequence of their already existing motivations.

      The best thing to do therefore, is not to deny contributions. That'd be like trying to outlaw the free-market or prohibit alcohol and drug sales. The best thing to do is to require full disclosure. Voters could then make their decision based on their knowledge of the candidate's stated intentions as well as their opinion about the intentions of the candidate's contributors.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    10. Re:Campaign contributions by alshithead · · Score: 1

      This is the token he willingly disclosed. If you assume that he fully disclosed what he received then it is a small amount. A certain Louisianna representative with the last name Jefferson, who had $90,000 of cash in his freezer, strikes me as a great example that not all elected officials disclose everything.

      --
      I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.
    11. Re:Campaign contributions by rifftide · · Score: 1

      The benefits these legislators receive from lobbyists aren't restricted to campaign contributions. Take a look at this (which didn't involve Pacheco). This is the kind of crap that we Massachusetts taxpayers have to put up with. And the worst part of it is that these jerks get all huffy when they talk about their "public service".

    12. Re:Campaign contributions by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 2, Funny

      Really, it's a lot. I mean, now he can afford to
      buy a copy of Microsoft Windows *and* Microsoft Office!

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    13. Re:Campaign contributions by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      "If people contribute to legislators that support their position, the legislators aren't bound to the contributors: they will put pro-contributor positions forth as a consequence of their already existing motivations."

      It sounds like someone is living in an idealized fantasy world. Come back to reality! The main goal of a congressman is to simply keep getting reelected; they can't do that if they lose their financial backers, which is what would happen if they didn't actively promote the desires of those backers--NOT the desires of the public that the legislators are supposed to represent. And don't try to pull any nonsense about a congressman's already-existing motivations; most of their motivation is to keep getting reelected. This is why a polarizing issue comes to the forefront everytime a year ends in an even number. It's not that the congressman actually care about the issue (although I'm sure some have convinced themselves they do), it's that they know this is the best way to get people to vote, and to get them voting how they please; and they don't care that they are needlessly wasting time and money on issues that matter little in the big picture.

      "The best thing to do is to require full disclosure."

      No, the best thing to do would be for the government to allow any given candidate at a specific level of government to have X number of TV advertisements, Y number of newspaper ads, etc, and for the government to pay their bills in full. We should keep the business interests of rich individuals separate from the interests of the general public.

      "Voters could then make their decision based on their knowledge of the candidate's stated intentions as well as their opinion about the intentions of the candidate's contributors."

      You're assuming that most or all of the topics that are actually important to the general public will be accurately represented by a few large donations from random companies. You're also assuming that the general public will bother to inform themselves.

    14. Re:Campaign contributions by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      You ignored what I said. I said, why shouldn't someone contribute to a legislator that agrees with your position. In other words, they already believed what you did. your money isn't convincing them otherwise.

    15. Re:Campaign contributions by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      And, you ignored what I said. The congressman is supposed to have the interests of his constituents first, not the interests of whoever signs the largest check. Unfortunately, his main job as congressman is to get himself reelected, and that only happens if the money keeps flowing, allowing him to mount a successful election campaign, in which he can present himself to his constituents in whatever manner is most agreeable to them, whether or not its based in reality.

    16. Re:Campaign contributions by glwtta · · Score: 1

      Voters could then make their decision based on their knowledge of the candidate's stated intentions as well as their opinion about the intentions of the candidate's contributors.

      Riiight. Voters can't be arsed to show up once in four years to press a button, and when they manage to show up, they can't seem to be able to press the one they wanted.

      Any plan that requires voters to do anything (this includes any manner of thinking) will simply not work. It's just too easy to abuse.

      --
      sic transit gloria mundi
    17. Re:Campaign contributions by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      Riiight. Voters can't be arsed to show up once in four years to press a button, and when they manage to show up, they can't seem to be able to press the one they wanted.

      Exactly. Voters are generally dumb so we should elect on their behalf. The last thing we want is citizens electing their representatives.

      Any plan that requires voters to do anything (this includes any manner of thinking) will simply not work. It's just too easy to abuse.

      Exactly again! We should remove all transparency because voters are too lazy to look at the information in the first place.

    18. Re:Campaign contributions by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Actually, no. A lot of people don't really understand how the political system works. We elect people to represent us for office, but we do so by voting for the people we agree with in the hopes that they will make decisions similar to what we ourselves would make. This doesn't, by itself, guarantee that an elected official will vote as his constituents would. He is under no obligation to do so. If he diverges far enough from what his constituents want, he will likely not get re-elected, but that's an entirely different matter.

      In other words, we try to elect people that think like we do, not elect people that will be mindless slaves voting only for what they think people in their districts want. As such, donating to a candidate that thinks the way you do is the best way to show support for them, not buying their vote on key issues.

      Now of course it doesn't always work that way, but my point is that donating money doesn't automatically mean you're buying a vote, it could simply mean "I like how you think and I want to help you get (re)elected so you will continue to support these interests which we both agree on".

    19. Re:Campaign contributions by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      "If he diverges far enough from what his constituents want, he will likely not get re-elected, but that's an entirely different matter."

      As I already said, you're assuming that his constituents will pay enough attention to everything he does to realize when he is not looking out for their interests. More than likely, he can simply win them over with one key polarizing issue, as I already said.

      "As such, donating to a candidate that thinks the way you do is the best way to show support for them, not buying their vote on key issues."

      I would have thought that the best and fairest way to show support for a candidate who you agree with would be to vote for him. Anything more is like saying that your vote counts for more than others, and in the case of campaign donations, only the largest donors really count for anything.

      "Now of course it doesn't always work that way, but my point is that donating money doesn't automatically mean you're buying a vote, it could simply mean "I like how you think and I want to help you get (re)elected so you will continue to support these interests which we both agree on"."

      More often than not, I think, it does mean you're buying into your interests, regardless of whether they're the interests of his constituents. A large donor doesn't even have to reside in the district/state of the campaign official's constituents.

  5. follow the money by chaosmind · · Score: 1

    So how would one go about finding what monies may have transferred from Microsoft to Senator Pacheco or to the Disability Policy Consortium? (Adjusts tin-foil hat...)

    1. Re:follow the money by bigtrike · · Score: 2, Informative

      By searching google: http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance /candidate.phtml?si=200419&c=410033 Looks like most of his money came from unions.

  6. Accessability Is for everyone by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My apologies for copying ideas of another poster I've seen post on this subject before, but here it goes. When it comes to reading computer file formats we are all disabled. No human can easily read a computer file format. That's why formats with actual standards are so important. So that we can all have equal access to the information stored within those files. Sure there may not be screen readers available right now, but if there is a market for them (and there is), then they will come. Especially if these formats come into wide use. Also, these accessibility tools will be much better because they know how to read the format. They don't have to struggle through and hack like crazy, just to make them work. They could even make an entire word processor specifically for the disabled, made to work with the abilities they have. A blind person doesn't need an interface like everyone else does. They need a completely different tool to compose documents than the rest of us. A standard format would make these tools easier to develop.

    Another note. I thought screen readers just read the text on your screen, regardless of what program is displaying them. I guess I was wrong about this, since Accessibility seems to be a big issue.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    1. Re:Accessability Is for everyone by joe+155 · · Score: 1

      well, I thought that they could just make a reader... but you raise an interesting point throught your post. If a office suite was designed specifically for disabled people then it could freely use the open document format and get updates as soon as is required without having to wait for someone to hack the .doc... infact because it seems that opening any .doc in another program can be hit and miss it would make sense, from the point of view of disabled people to make the move to open standards and then when tools are created they can use them.

      I can't imagine MS is being stoped from having open document in their programs... except MS themselves. So there needn't be any compatibility issues no matter what people are using, and disabled people will be just as well served even if MS does give the best options for disabled people (it's an "IF" but I can't really speak on which OS/office is best for this though)...

      --
      *''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
    2. Re:Accessability Is for everyone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love your metaphor about us all being disabled when it comes to computer file formats. It really sums up the whole issue in an eloquent, succinct way.

  7. Whats all the fuss by TheSkepticalOptimist · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I mean, I don't understand all this necessity of creating an "open document" standard. Especially when it comes down to politicians deciding which should be a ubiquitous document format.

    To my knowledge, its never been a problem for a software company A to read and support documents from software company B, and vice versa. In fact, when it comes to word processing documents, which are largely text based (in a binary format), the problem is moot. Sure, you may not get some advanced formatting features specific to an individual package, but at least you can get the meat and potatoes of the document.

    Unless you go to extraordinary lengths to encrypt a document so that only your application and read and write to it, I don't understand what all the hubbub is about.

    Lets put it this way. If Microsoft comes out with an "open standard" and the OSS community comes out with an "open standard", whats the big deal? This means that Microsoft products will be able to natively support OSS document standards, and the OSS community will support Microsoft standards. Its not like either community needs to reverse-engineer the document format, both communities are making their standards open and thus, easily supported by 3rd parties.

    What I find laughable is the idea that a government has to support ONE standard. I mean, does it really make a hill of beans difference for politicians? Whether your a politician that support the OSS community, or swears by retail software companies (depends where most of your campaign monies came from or didn't come from), the applications your going to use will be able to support either or standards.

    Making a software product support one and only one standard is Stupid, period, with a capital S, especially when you have such disparaging differences between the OSS and retail software communities.

    So, get over it. I mean, this doesn't need to have have taxpayers money wasted on such an endeavour to try and promote one person's open document standards over another. This is one of those non-news items that people seem to get all fired up over.

    As long as I can go into application X, and open application's Y documents, who freakin cares what document format is being used!

    If you really need a common standard, saving everything to PDF for goodness sakes!

    --
    I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
    1. Re:Whats all the fuss by iggymanz · · Score: 4, Informative

      you gotta be kidding, there's all kinds of problems reading across word processors, at my company we get plenty of unreadable documents from our government clients using Wordperfect and other non-MS stuff. We've had to install old versions of other software just to cut and paste. For legal documents, this is not acceptable, an open document specification is long overdue.

    2. Re:Whats all the fuss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously this guy has never had to publish anything or work with an editor, or even had someone review his writings that used a different application. There are entire books on how important typesetting is for publication; that all goes out the window when your reviewer opens the file to see 5 lines of double space, switch to 5 lines of single space, then back again.

    3. Re:Whats all the fuss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except when Microsoft's open format isn't really open. (Unless by open, you mean, can only be implemented by closed-source software which runs on Windows, then I guess you're correct, but most people probably don't subscribe to that definition). From what I've read, it is impossible to implement a reader/writer for Microsoft's format without being encumbered in patents, which only Microsoft can select who to license too (which means no FOSS, no GPL release).

      The idea of a true open standard is that you can write a program to read/write a document, and I can write a program to read/write a document, and we can swap documents and read/write each others documents. Not only that, but the details of the standard are open to whoever wants to write a program, so that 20 years from now, when I need to find information I'm being auditted on, I can be sure there will be a program around which can still read my files.

      You don't get that ability with Microsoft's .doc format or Microsoft's new "open" xml format. That's why a truly open format is important.

    4. Re:Whats all the fuss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you kidding? Can you imagine if the government didn't accept faxes that came from standard fax machines, instead pushing for an XYZ-only fax machine? Everyone having to buy a second fax machine because you can't fax over anything using standard protocols?

    5. Re:Whats all the fuss by tinkerghost · · Score: 1
      As long as I can go into application X, and open application's Y documents, who freakin cares what document format is being used!
      OK, I just saved a document in MS Word from my Windows 3.1 machine. I'll email it to you as soon as I get trumpet winsock to work again....
      OK did you get it? Good, go ahead and try opening that in your spiffy Office 2003. Oh, it didn't work? Um, sorry that's alls I have to save it with besides notepad.
      Face it MS products are not compatible with each other, let alone with anything else. The whole purpose of an open standard/format is that there is a freely available document standard that will allow anyone to create a program capable of reading that format. The ITD of MA was looking at the long term. Up until just a few years ago there was a single standard format for all Official Documents in MA ... printed. If it was official, it was printed, documented, and filed - thereafter available to anyone who asked for it. Given the proliferation of e-documents, the ITD is attempting to create a single standard in which all relavant government documents are to be stored. They are fully aware that document formats change over time, suppliers go out of business, and suppliers stop supporting products.
      If MS drops support for the Office 2003 .doc format in 2015, where are you going to turn in 2025 to get a reader for the documents created with Office 2003 and whatever else that used that format? The whole point of the Open Document Format is that every part of it is documented and standardized. Anyone can get and impliment the standard without having to reverse engineer it. With a document in the .doc format, you are dependant on MS to provide you with a reader in perpetuity. With the ODF, you don't have to rely on anyone special to provide you with a reader, just as long as somebody faithfully carries out the standard, you're good.
      If you really need a common standard, saving everything to PDF for goodness sakes!
      You know that was concidered for text documents don't you? How about a spreadsheet attached to a report?
      As for the cries that it doesn't support the needs of the disabled, I call bullshit.
      1. Visually Impared: what does MS .doc format offer? um nothing, MS Windows offers a screen magnifier, that's usable by any program because all it does is blow up the window to a specified magnification. I don't see how this changes when I change to the ODF.
      2. Blind: OK so magnification isn't enough you need it read. Which is easier for a text-speach company to create, a program that converts 20 proprietary document formats to speach, or one that converts a single, standardized, fully documented format to speach?
      3. Deaf/Hard of hearing: Um, don't think ODF covers audio recordings, and I'm not aware of any speach -> text software that's capable of good accuracy without training to the speaker.
      4. Physically Disabled: These are issues with hardware not a document format.
      Let's add to this whole mix that if MS is claiming that only Office is capable of providing these features, then if they want to play in the MA govt, all they have to do is grab the spec and use it. This is not about excluding MS from the game, it's about making MA goverment documents available on a level playing field. If I need to read it using Linux, MacOS, OS/2, or Windows I should be able to.
      Moving to the tin hat area, the encryption supposedly available on the documents for the 2007 release of Office will trigger the DCMA when you try to reverse engineer the format. Oops, didn't think of that did you. Not an issue with an Open Standard.
      How many more reasons would you like, as to why a single Open Standard is better than multiple Closed formats with reguards to public documents?
    6. Re:Whats all the fuss by the_greywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I mean, I don't understand all this necessity of creating an "open document" standard. Especially when it comes down to politicians deciding which should be a ubiquitous document format.

      To my knowledge, its never been a problem for a software company A to read and support documents from software company B, and vice versa. In fact, when it comes to word processing documents, which are largely text based (in a binary format), the problem is moot. Sure, you may not get some advanced formatting features specific to an individual package, but at least you can get the meat and potatoes of the document.

      Unless you go to extraordinary lengths to encrypt a document so that only your application and read and write to it, I don't understand what all the hubbub is about.

      You've hit on exactly the problems that ofice suites like OpenOffice.org and KOffice, etc. run into when trying to import or export Word files. You're right that there's nothing stopping anyone from supporting one format or another... However, as an example, Microsoft changes the format of Word files with every version of Office, adding and removing features and changing the binary signature of the file. This requires more effort spent at every new release, reverse-engineering the file format and hopefully finding that one critical detail that defines this text is bold.

      Lets put it this way. If Microsoft comes out with an "open standard" and the OSS community comes out with an "open standard", whats the big deal? This means that Microsoft products will be able to natively support OSS document standards, and the OSS community will support Microsoft standards. Its not like either community needs to reverse-engineer the document format, both communities are making their standards open and thus, easily supported by 3rd parties.

      Microsoft has come out with an "open standard". OpenXML. They're pushing it through ECMA with the hope that it will become an ISO standard. They were a bit slow in the motions, as OpenDocument has already become an ISO standard: ISO/IED 26300.

      The problem is that Microsoft's definition for their XML document standard is so complex and over-engineered, and its licensing so damn confusing, that it's impossible to know whether your implementation of an OpenXML reader or writer is actually legal. The license requires that the implementation be complete, and the definition for that term is so vague as to make it unclear if a conforming implementation will even work along side Microsoft's Word.

      On the other hand, OpenDocument is clear enough that it's easy to see whether a conforming implementation is complete, as it's guaranteed to be compatible with any other implementation.

      And Microsoft has stated that they will not implement or distribute an ODF plugin for Word. Ever.

      What I find laughable is the idea that a government has to support ONE standard. I mean, does it really make a hill of beans difference for politicians? Whether your a politician that support the OSS community, or swears by retail software companies (depends where most of your campaign monies came from or didn't come from), the applications your going to use will be able to support either or standards.

      Wrong. Settling on one standard ensures total compatiblility across all platforms and in all circumstances. This means that one computer in a Mac OS X office will be able to exchange documents seamlessly with a Linux computer in another office and those two legacy Windows boxes in another. Seamlessly being the key word.

      Because Microsoft has comitted to not supporting ODF, this creates a bit of friction in that suddenly there is guaranteed incompatibility between Microsoft's Word and any other office suite that supp

      --
      grey wolf
      LET FORTRAN DIE!
    7. Re:Whats all the fuss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The big problem is patents. In the past a determined person or company could figure out just about any format and do a decent job of handling it. But now companies are patenting their file formats - meaning it is a patent violation to read or write to their formats. For this reason moving to any patented file format is incredibly foolish - the vendor can truly lock you in forever or disallow you access to your own data. MS will say it's not a problem for Word because you can always output to text, but that is still a problem because you lose all your formatting in so doing.

      OpenDocument is patent-free safe to use.

    8. Re:Whats all the fuss by mabhatter654 · · Score: 1

      Actually, the MA Open Document Format push was accompanied by several other formats as well...PDF as in there. What the actual statement was is that in 2007, the State archivist and IT department will require all documents available to the public in one or more formats from a list... I believe it was HTML, PDF, ODF and maybe something else. The heads of departments got together and looked for things they could support for years to come. That meant commercial support, as well as openness of the file format to be reverse engineered/maintained by the state archivist when it wasn't profitable/nobody cared about it anymore. Gee, sounds really familiar!!! That "decree" did not preclude the use of MS Office in any way whatsoever!!! After all, MS Office can be made to generate PDFs freely all day. BUT it is a boon to the OSS advocates that believe all government communication should be free to everybody. MS makes a killing from said government offices "mandating" the use of MS Word .doc files for every thing from Grant applications, to homework assignments for kids in school. The whole thing is a great lesson in doublespeak and speaking around the actual truth.. which is there are 100's of govt. departments all little fiefs "requiring" MS Office formats with no official oversight whatsoever... It creates a hostile environment for smaller businesses and poor people all over, but nobody complains about THAT while Billy G rolls in the dough.

  8. Same idiot senator... by cayenne8 · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    I think this same senator is the same asshat that is trying to block legislation to allow LA to have the same percentage of offshore royalties as other states (both offshore or land based).

    I think he was against legislation for wind power initiatives with a "not in my backyard" mentality, but, I could be wrong on that one...heard the tail end of that one on the radio...

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    1. Re:Same idiot senator... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah... you're wrong. The NATIONAL asshat senators from MA are Senators Kerry and Kennedy. State level senators don't get to participate in national policy and as such don't have a single thing to say about what happens in Louisiana. The NIMBY windfarm was going to go off of Nantucket. Windfarms are clearly for poor, depressed areas; not for use in rich democrat areas.

  9. Chain of command by truthsearch · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The process... was driven by one individual in a very powerful position (Kriss) issuing a memo to an individual in a less powerful position (Quinn).

    Um, isn't that how everything gets done? A superior instructs a person lower-down on the totem pole to complete a task? In theory the person in the "very powerful position" is the person with the authority to make such decisions. So... what's the problem?

    1. Re:Chain of command by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus, it's not like it was out of the blue. You can see the whole history on Wikipedia.

  10. Some in disability community see value to ODF by peterkorn · · Score: 5, Interesting
    As I note in my blog (shameless plug) http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20060629 increasingly folks in the disability community in Massachusetts see real accessibility benefits to this move to ODF; something that hasn't been picked up yet by mainstream media. See the recent Carroll Center blog: http://blog.carrolltech.org/archives/54 and the earlier Carroll Center blog when folks were first becoming aware of ODF accessibility issues in Massachusetts http://blog.carrolltech.org/archives/51. Also the Oakdale Christian Fellowship in Charlotte NC makes similar points to the recent Carroll Center blog (see my writeup at: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/korn/20051116).

    As others have noted in this thread, the mainstream media continues to repeat the falsehood that Microsoft is responsible for the accessibility of MS-Office (which is to say, the extent to which Windows assistive technology vendors have special-cased and reverse-engineering MS-Office). David Berlind's interview with Curtis Chong of the National Federation of the Blind make this very clear (see his blog at: http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=2163

    1. Re:Some in disability community see value to ODF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was about 9 years ago, so I'm sure things have moved on - but when I worked in a blindness charity , anything other than plain text was a nightmare to convert to braille. Usually it was easier to just print it out from whatever format, then type it all in manually.

    2. Re:Some in disability community see value to ODF by rs232 · · Score: 1

      Festival is a free text-to-speech (TTS) system written in C++ that'll work. If you're on a Debian-based system, apt-get install festival should do the trick. Others should follow the installation instructions on Festival's Web site.

      --
      davecb5620@gmail.com
  11. An Even Better Proposed Format by eldavojohn · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Most people who are not completely blinded by ideology will say honestly, "not yet".
    Ah, you're right, I am blinded by my own zeal. Thank you for helping me see the light.

    Not only should we select a document format that supports speech, but that should be embedded into the file format as a wav. I think that this will make it easier for applications to play it for the user.

    Also embedded in the document will be a massive bitmap containing high resolution images with enlarged fonts for our users hard of sight.

    We're not sure, either, if the people will all have the same true type font so we'll go ahead and embed that in the file too. Wait, better include the codecs for the image and sound snippets. Oh, and I guess we can't be sure the viewer can read them so we'll include the viewer too.

    My, oh my, this is much better than the crappy OpenDocument format I used in my prior ideology.

    I just opened up MS Word and typed "Hello World!" and saved it to my desktop. 24,064 bytes. Why? What in God's name is that bloated app bloating in it's bloated files?

    Obviously it's (mostly) the app not the format that addresses this, but it's a valid bitch...
    Arguing for MS Office is not a "valid bitch."
    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Mattintosh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I just opened up MS Word and typed "Hello World!" and saved it to my desktop. 24,064 bytes. Why? What in God's name is that bloated app bloating in it's bloated files?

      From what I recall, it saves a memory dump to a file. That would include app state, undo, and other information that didn't need to survive, and it shoves it into semi-permanent storage. This explains a bunch of retarded, mind-boggling things we've all heard (and disbelieved) about Word, such as:
      1) There are old, deleted, removed items still lingering in the saved data. (Proven, and has bitten people in the ass. I'm guessing it's Undo steps saved as part of the dump.)
      2) Your example - "Hello, World!" takes 24k. (How much working memory does a fresh instance of Word use in the amount of time it takes to open a new document from the Normal template, type something, and save it? I'd guess about 24k.)
      3) Every Word release comes with a new format, while Excel and other Office apps don't always have a new format. (The app footprint changes with every release, of course, so the memory dump does too.)
      4) Word can usually open its own format very quickly, while other apps take FOREVER to import it. (It just loads working memory with whatever's in the file, while other apps don't use the same info and have to figure out what everything means.)
      5) Word sometimes can't even open its own format. (Whoops, something got out of place before this file was dumped, now Word can't reconstruct its memory map! CRASH!)

      Absolutely retarded. And Microsoft has the nerve to ask why anyone would want to use other software. I dare them to ask why anyone would want to use THEIR insecure, buggy, incompatible, locked-in, proprietary, asstastic formats and the apps that produce them. Microsoft should've stuck to what it did best: make Excel better.

    2. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by maxume · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So pragmatism only works if it occurs along the lines of your personal ideology? It makes perfect sense for Massechusetts to move in the direction of using odf. However, discontinuing the use of Office before application support for odf is equal to that of Office makes no sense at all.

      I don't even need to make some crazy argument about including a dictionary of definitions of words used(recursive even) in the document.

      As far as what is in the bloated file, who cares? If you want a text file, use a text file, Word is a word processing/document layout monstrosity.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by southpolesammy · · Score: 1

      There is nothing wrong with the OpenDoc format -- it is a storage medium. By contrast, MS Office's and OpenOffice's function is to display the contents of such media in a way that is useful to the user. In this case, the shortcoming is indeed with OpenOffice, not OpenDoc.

      Also, at what point was GP arguing for MS Office? The most you can glean from GP's post regarding his opinions on MS Office is that he's neutral, as there's nothing whether he prefers MS Office or not, only that one function of MS Office exceeds the capabilities of OpenOffice. There's nothing stating his overall opinion of MS Office.

      --
      Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
    4. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *squints*

      Grandma Gates, is that you?

    5. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Interesting
      However, discontinuing the use of Office before application support for odf is equal to that of Office makes no sense at all.


      Actually - the proposal that included moving to ODF as the official format also included continued use of MS Office as required until a full migration could be made for everyone. That is, assuming Microsoft insisted in to providing a method for MS Office to use ODF. Which, honestly, is a funny thing to do when a major customer has a set requirement. Zealotry, indeed.
    6. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by timeOday · · Score: 3, Informative
      Ah, you're right, I am blinded by my own zeal. Thank you for helping me see the light.

      Not only should we select a document format that supports speech, but that should be embedded into the file format as a wav. I think that this will make it easier for applications to play it for the user

      Now you're intentionally refusing to see the problem.

      You can argue until you're blue in the face that document format and application features are two separate things, but this fact remains: if you dictate a format, then people have to use an application that supports the format!

      The fact that an OpenDocument editor could have the necessary features is almost certainly true, and I happen to think the whole argument has a sort of "think of the children" ring to it. But when you propose an actual switchover in an important application, you have to get all your ducks in a row. You can't just tell people not to worry about a real problem just because it could be solved.

    7. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Hello World!" Example:

      OpenOffice 2.0.3 .odt - 8,192 bytes
      MS Word .doc - 24,576 bytes

      System Requirements for OpenOffice.org 2.0.3:

      Microsoft Windows
      Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000 (Service Pack 2 or higher), Windows XP, Windows 2003
      128 Mbytes RAM Minimum
      580 Mbytes available disk space (Full Install)

      GNU/Linux ("Linux")
      Linux kernel version 2.2.13 or higher, glibc2 version 2.2.0 or higher
      128 Mbytes RAM Minimum
      580 Mbytes available disk space (Full Install)

      System Requirements for MS Office Professional Edition 2003:

      Min Memory
        128 MB of RAM or greater; optional installation of Business Contact Manager for Outlook 2003 requires 256 MB of RAM
      Hard disk
        400 MB of available hard-disk space; optional installation files cache (recommended) requires an additional 200 MB of available hard-disk space; optional installation of Business Contact Manager for Outlook 2003 requires an additional 190 MB of available hard-disk space

      Cost:

      MS Windows Professional Edition - $499.99
      OpenOffice.org 2.0.3 - Free

    8. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Andrew+Tanenbaum · · Score: 1

      Here's a comparison I like to make, using an Athlon 64 3000+ with 2.0GiB of RAM on Windows:

      Cold start for OpenOffice.org Writer 2: 9 seconds
      Cold start for Microsoft Word: 1 second

      Do we really want to make Government employees even less efficient?

    9. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by sqlrob · · Score: 1

      Are you sure that's a cold start of Word?

      IIRC, there's an "Office fast start" loaded at login by default after an office install.

    10. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Here's a comparison I like to make..."

      How profound. Do we want to make our goverment spend more or less money on IT and be less efficeint because they must account, track and retain their proof of purchase seals? See these kinds of argurments are pointless. You can go on and on with them.

      A concept so simple as an alternative, save-as file format for the consumer's benifit has people running and defending the closed one. Why?

    11. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by grcumb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "You can argue until you're blue in the face that document format and application features are two separate things, but this fact remains: if you dictate a format, then people have to use an application that supports the format!"

      An application that supports the format? You mean, like, Microsoft Office?

      I think you're the one missing the point here. Anyone who argues apps agains formats is liable to fall into the same logical hole: Just because an app - or an app-maker, for that matter - doesn't support a format today, doesn't mean that they can't or won't. The mere fact that it is standard and required will almost inevitably be enough to ensure that someone steps up and supports the format.

      Ultimately, the whole point of open formats is the exact opposite of telling someone which application they can or cannot use. The truth of it is that open formats allow the customer to decide what's best for him, without fear of finding himself at the mercy of a single, predatory vendor.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    12. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think the government bureaucrats will be more efficient if their word processor starts up two seconds faster?

    13. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Well, I just started my copy of open office on Linux. It took 7 seconds. Actually 7 mississippi's, but that's besides the point. Athlon 64 3200+, with 1 GiB of RAM. You're right though. That extra 6-8 seconds at the beginning of my work day is really going to kill my productivity. Think about your argument for a second. You're saying that 8 seconds, every time you have to start up your word processor, is really going to make a difference. Frankly, I think we'd save a lot more time if we all learned how to touch type. That saves more than 7 seconds in the first sentence you type. Now that I reread your statement I think you may be joking, but it is a serious argument brought up by MS zealots. Really, I' could wait 30 seconds for my office suite to start. Because most of the time, when I start my office suite, i'm going to do a lot of work. If I just want to jot down a quick note, I open notepad. If it took 30 seconds to open each web page I visited I might be worried. But 10 seconds to open my word processor isn't going to hurt my productivity one bit.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    14. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      Actually - the proposal that included moving to ODF as the official format also included continued use of MS Office as required until a full migration could be made for everyone.

      I didn't read the article but if that is clearly true then the senator has zero case. His main argument is that people with disabilities will be affected, whereas the original proposal completely solved that problem.

      A better slashdot article would have at least sought the senator's response to this fact that clearly contradicts his argument (even for laymen).

    15. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Andrew+Tanenbaum · · Score: 1

      Do you think that people only load up programs at the beginning of the day, and keep them running at all times? Maybe on a Mac, but not on Windows and Linux where when you close a window, the program closes.
      If I told my secretary "take this down", and she said "Wait... wait... hold on... ok go" I would beat the shit out of her. Seven seconds is unacceptable. Not even Visual Studio takes this long to load. On Linux, KWord loads in under a second. Do you think a broad will be able to remember 7 or more seconds worth of complicated prose before she even starts typing?

    16. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      And in so many cases you NEED to dictate a format, and in all cases the "format" is openly documented:

      Electricity is supplied at a given voltage, you MUST use appliances which accept this voltage.
      Roads are supplied flat and covered with tarmac, you MUST use roadworthy vehicles, no trains etc.
      Gas is supplied in a small number of standard forms, you MUST drive a car which runs on one of them.
      Movies come on VHS or DVD, you MUST use one or the other (and yes anyone is free to create or play unencrypted DVDs)

      We have standard cables, plugs and sockets, pipes, etc... Why should electronic data be any different?

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    17. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      On linux i've always kept apps open when not using them too, i just leave them in another workspace until i need them again... closing down apps you've finished with is a windows habit, because windows gets bogged down and slower when you have more apps running, plus the extra apps clutter up the taskbar and alt-tab list, because the interface is completely unsuitable for using more than a couple of apps.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    18. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by rich_r · · Score: 2, Funny
      If I told my secretary "take this down", and she said "Wait... wait... hold on... ok go" I would beat the shit out of her. Seven seconds is unacceptable.

      If that's your response to a 7 second delay, I'd hate to carpool with you ;)

      I kid, I kid...

    19. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1
      The fact that an OpenDocument editor could have the necessary features is almost certainly true, and I happen to think the whole argument has a sort of "think of the children" ring to it. But when you propose an actual switchover in an important application, you have to get all your ducks in a row. You can't just tell people not to worry about a real problem just because it could be solved.

      Yes, but unlike with proprietary software, if the free software you're considering is missing a feature you need, you don't have to dismiss the software; You can spend some money to get somebody to implement the feature. In the long run, it's still smarter than dealing with MS.

    20. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by FractalZone · · Score: 2, Informative

      I just opened up MS Word and typed "Hello World!" and saved it to my desktop. 24,064 bytes. Why? What in God's name is that bloated app bloating in it's bloated files?

      Hmmm. Stuff WGA might use when it phones home? (Think how useful the User Information settings for a new Word document might be to the Evil Empire...) Oh, I'm straying off topic for this thread...but there is little on one's system that is off-topic to spyware such as WGA if Microsoft decides to go snooping around your system without your informed consent.

      Absolutely retarded. And Microsoft has the nerve to ask why anyone would want to use other software. I dare them to ask why anyone would want to use THEIR insecure, buggy, incompatible, locked-in, proprietary, asstastic formats and the apps that produce them. Microsoft should've stuck to what it did best: make Excel better.

      OK, I'm biased as all hell about Excel. I know it, use it, and think it sucks compared to Lotus 1-2-3 v2+ for the vast majority of things I use a spreadsheet for. Microsoft came out with Multiplan back in the early days of PCs, when VisiCalc was king of the electronic spreadsheets. (See http://www.dssresources.com/history/sshistory.html for a nice history of electronic spreadsheets. Then see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplan to learn what Multiplan is if you don't already know about it - a glaring omission in the main article at the first URL.)

      Why did 1-2-3 fare so well against Multiplan? My guess is that it was simple, fast, and efficient by comparison. Multiplan was overly complicated, bloated, inefficient, and very slow. Gee, that describes Excel, too...I wonder why?

      Excel's roots are in Microsoft Multiplan. If Excel were written in highly optimized x86/x64 assembler (in the tight loops that affect performance, anyway) and didn't have so much crap hung off of it (it reminds me of what a pimp would like in a spreadsheet program), it might actually be fast. Excel didn't win the spreadsheet wars on its merits, that's for sure. Microsoft's marketing muscle, monopolistic practices used to keep Windows bundled with most PCs to this day, and its unceasing use of FUD are the only reasons Excel is the dominant spreadsheet today. I'd love to be part of an Open Source project to port and update 1-2-3 to modern platforms. I doubt IBM would allow that, but we won't know until someone asks.

      Given today's microcomputers, I think there is room for a program like Lotus Symphony (modernized of course) that does all of the major office application tasks in memory. Symphony was really a spreadsheet at heart and looked very much like 1-2-3 under the hood, with different views of the same data when one used it in word processing or database modes. What percentage of users work with written documents, databases, or spreadsheets that won't fit into 1GB of RAM? As I recall, the empty file overhead for Lotus 1-2-3 and Symphony files was very low. Very well designed data structures and tight, fast code tend to do that.

      I've used OpenOffice a little, enough to know it will do most anything I expect out of an office suite. Why pay ripoff prices for buggy bloatware from Microsoft when OpenOffice and various flavors of Linux are available for free and now have increasingly good support?

      --
      "You're young, you're drunk, you're in bed, you have knives; shit happens." -- Angelina Jolie
    21. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by 00lmz · · Score: 1

      From what I recall, it saves a memory dump to a file. That would include app state, undo, and other information that didn't need to survive, and it shoves it into semi-permanent storage.

      Actually it's a "compound document" and is structured somewhat like a filesystem containing other subdocuments (more info)

    22. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > If I told my secretary "take this down", and she said "Wait... wait... hold on... ok go" I would beat the shit out of her. Seven seconds is unacceptable.

      Dude, get professional help. Seriously.

    23. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by Mattintosh · · Score: 1

      I used Lotus 1-2-3 back in the day (version 3-point-something, so... 1996 or 1997 for my high school) and I recall that it wasn't a bad program. But I've had hundreds of hours of Excel time since then, and I don't share your dislike for it. Excel is the one product that Microsoft makes that doesn't suck. (Not counting some games. I rather liked AoE.)

      Recently, I've been using OO.o, and I'm unimpressed. It just seems shoddy. Try sorting a "database" table sometime. Excel makes short work of it. It requires that headings have a different style from the data, and you pick a column (move the cursor to it) and hit one of the sort buttons. A "blink" later and your data is nicely sorted. Sure, it's a dumb sort, but it's a spreadsheet for cryin' out loud. I'm not looking for a real database, or I'd be using one. Now do the same thing with OO.o. I'm not sure what it requires for headings to be left alone, but when you hit a quick-sort button, it sorts the headings down into the middle of the data.

      Now, I like free-as-in-whatever software as much as the next guy, but this is just pathetic. I'm comparing the latest OO.o to Excel 2000 (6-years old!). It's not a case of needing the latest-greatest, and I'm not expecting much. I have simple needs, and I'd use a simple tool (a basic spreadsheet program with basic table sorting and cell-function capabilities) if I could get one. But Excel is the only one with acceptable functionality so far (I haven't tried Lotus 1-2-3 as it's a bit hard to find and even harder to run on a MacBook Pro).

      Also to note: I'm not paying ripoff prices for buggy bloatware. I paid a fairly low price (for commercial software) for an older version (when Office XP was released, I grabbed a clearance copy of Office 2k) and since it met my needs, I'm still using it. Microsoft must hate me by now. Now if only WINE or Cedega or CrossOver or somebody would get a Macintel version of WINE going, I'd be all over it... me and my Excel 2000.

    24. Re:An Even Better Proposed Format by FractalZone · · Score: 1

      I tend to actually do math with spreadsheets, not produce pretty documents, although some of what I do involves linking multiple spreadsheets, written documents (boilerplate), and databases, to mass produce customized reports. I did a lot of that sort of thing in Symphony, and as with 1-2-3, I pushed it right to the limit. Running out of physical memory was almost always my main complaint working with 1-2-3 or Symphony, even when I had maxed out the memory expansion possibilities on a high-end PC.

      The way Microsoft approached application integration was rather different, conceptually, than how Lotus did. Lotus' scheme was very memory bound but if I could do the same thing using a Lotus product and a Microsoft product, it would be so much faster with the Lotus product that Microsoft's programs looked like escargot.

      Microsoft takes the "it's good enough for the masses, so let's make it shiny" approach. MS relies on improvements in hardware (PC performance) to cover up the poor design and implementation of their core applications. Look at IE versus Firefox. Firefox is more secure, faster, does what you expect it to do (as opposed to what Microsoft wants it to do) and is presently the browser of choice for folks who want to add functionality by writing their own add-ons and plug-ins.

      Excel is much the same way. PCs have become so powerful that a program such as Excel, burdened with all sorts of bells and whistles that most people never use and even power users rarely use in combinations very often, is just a software pig. You're right, it is relatively stable, but that was not always the case. When it was competing with 1-2-3 and Symphony, it won not on technical merits, but via MS's marketing clout. Users were convinced that then needed all the frills and that the slow performance would improve when faster machines became available, and that "nobody ever got fired for buying a Microsoft Office product" (Microsoft learned a lot about FUD from IBM).

      Now, the amount of work that can be comfortably done in Excel on a typical new PC has so far surpassed what the majority of users require that the performance difference between Excel and what could be done is best summed up "plenty fast" versus "Warp 7". When 1-2-3 and Symphony were in their heydays, one usually turned off auto-recalculation as a matter of routine when developing complex spreadsheets. Excel made that a necessity back then. Now, it is only spreadsheet power users who you'll see developing spreadsheets big enough to make auto-recalculation a practical necessity.

      In fairness, I consider gaping security holes to be bugs. Excel is king of the spreadsheets in a different day and age that 1-2-3 was. Lotus never had to worry much about security holes in its spreadsheets (dirty tricks used to by people creating spreadsheets to commit fraud were making a little news, but not much). Having malware infested documents passed around the 'Net infecting other people's machines was not an issue.

      I'd like to see a spreadsheet built more like Linux; a lean mean core on which one could hang whatever features and options one wants -- they wouldn't slow it down or use resources unless one specifically installed and enabled them. Excel's "core" is too big and slow, IMNSHO, which qualifies it as bloatware in my book. Buggy? Well, yes, but mostly because of the security holes common to the entire Office suite and IE. Let's face it, ActiveX is just one of many serious problems that plague Microsoft's premiere product lines.

      Microsoft: you can get better, but you can't pay more.

      --
      "You're young, you're drunk, you're in bed, you have knives; shit happens." -- Angelina Jolie
  12. Disregarded disabled citizens? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So because OpenDocument can't help everyone, it shouldn't help anyone? What kind of moronic politician -- sorry, I repeat myself -- thinks this is an intelligent decision?

    You know, Boston's "Big Dig" doesn't do me a bit of good here in the West, so why the hell should I pay for it? Oh yeah, I forgot, government is supposed to reflect the will of the majority, not just the vocal minority. We all make sacrifices -- and in this case, a very small one -- for the good of society as a whole.

    1. Re:Disregarded disabled citizens? by alohatiger · · Score: 1

      > So because OpenDocument can't help everyone, it shouldn't help anyone?

      That's how the disabled argument often works. Remember the fully automated, self-cleaning toilets they tried to put in New York? They were also self-funding (with ads), but since the handicapped couldn't use them they weren't deployed. The larger, handicapped-friendly versions turned into crack whore mini-hotels, so that didn't work, either.

      --
      Bigtime Consulting - "We're the best because we cost the most"
    2. Re:Disregarded disabled citizens? by neonprimetime · · Score: 1

      So because OpenDocument can't help everyone, it shouldn't help anyone?

      Not only are they disregarding disabled citizens, they've also forgotten about the Mexican Immigrants, Gays & Lesbians, Athiests, African Americans, and the French. Damn it ... OpenDocument really isn't as open as I thought they were.

    3. Re:Disregarded disabled citizens? by belg4mit · · Score: 1

      The Big Dig doesn't do me much good here (in Cambridge, MA) either.

      The dam thing is just a "better" way for people outside of the city
      to get from one side to the other. Now the Urban Ring would actually
      benefit the people whose construction it'd inconvenience, but that
      (like other things) would make too much sense.

      --
      Were that I say, pancakes?
    4. Re:Disregarded disabled citizens? by CptPicard · · Score: 1

      So because OpenDocument can't help everyone, it shouldn't help anyone? What kind of moronic politician -- sorry, I repeat myself -- thinks this is an intelligent decision?

      The difference here is of course that you're essentially taking accessibility away once it already has been achieved. I'm disabled myself and actually support ODF because of its long term benefits, but I can't buy into this kind of an argument. The ODF issue discussed in the article is valid, but only for as long as there is no compatibility, which there will be, eventually and fairly easily, I presume.

      Your idea that politics in general is evil if it seeks to be inclusive is the nasty bit here.

      Oh yeah, I forgot, government is supposed to reflect the will of the majority, not just the vocal minority. We all make sacrifices -- and in this case, a very small one -- for the good of society as a whole.

      A rather dangerous argument if taken for a general rule. It may be a "small sacrifice" for you to start limiting disabled people's access to the outside world through forms of exclusion, but it is profoundly destructive for the disabled individual, in particular when it comes to employment. I know we've been the first to be "sacrificed" in this manner for the "general good" for most of history, and this is why we've become vocal -- I see no reason why we should just humbly shut up and stay at home. I'd rather die than do that (and a lot of people these days are suggesting we do just that, preferably before birth).

      And no, don't give me the slippery slope Libertarian argument about why nothing and should be done because such evil Communism will eventually degenerate into everyone being forced to use wheelchairs. There is no reason why there should not exist a middle ground where at the very least vitally important functions in society and life are inclusive. This is so important because it helps the disabled person to help himself, instead of becoming a passive charity object. Not every support system leads to learned helplessness.

      That said, there are jerks on both sides of the argument. I believe that a pragmatic approach to accessibility can be made to work so much better if it is defended within the larger projects without sabotaging them completely if everything isn't built to disability spec. The toilets are a good example... I don't give a damn if not EVERY toilet in a building isn't accessible, but am perfectly happy with a statistical approach, guaranteeing that I'm about as likely to get to pee as the next person..

      --
      I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  13. Governor's office fires back. by AJWM · · Score: 5, Informative
    The report at news.com also has this to say:
    In response, the office of Governor Mitt Romney issued a statement on Tuesday, saying that the executive branch would continue with the standards implementation plan. "Senator Pacheco is wrong on the facts and wrong on the law. We are committed to an open-standards approach that fully takes into account all accessibility, cost and statutory requirements," said Felix Browne, an administration spokesman.


    Pacheo has been on the wrong side of this for a while. I guess he figured it was time for another headline.
    --
    -- Alastair
  14. Disabled Citizens? by deviantphil · · Score: 5, Insightful

    saying the state's IT division didn't have the authority to make that decision and has disregarded the needs of disabled citizens.

    How about poor citizens who can't afford the Microsoft Tax?

    1. Re:Disabled Citizens? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't mind if MSs word processors were reasonably priced. I'm sorry they shouldn't be charging $300 for a product that has pretty much, from the home users point of view, remained the same since 1997. Especially when products with the same functionality can be gotten for free. Something around $50 would probably be a fair price. Something that most people can afford, and probably what most people would think it's worth. Oh, the other thing that bothers me about MS Office is that the format changes every time they release a new version. Which means that you not only have to spend $300 on an office suite, but you have to spend it every 3 years.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:Disabled Citizens? by McNally · · Score: 1
      > saying the state's IT division didn't have the authority to make that decision and has disregarded the needs of disabled citizens.

      How about poor citizens who can't afford the Microsoft Tax?
      C'mon, if they can't afford software how on earth do you think they can afford a state senator? Think, man! Think!
    3. Re:Disabled Citizens? by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      Hey, if you put them on lay-away, they can be remarkably cheap on a weekly basis. Of course you do have to wait a while to take them home, and occasionally some screw-up will sell them off the reserved shelf, but all in all not a bad way to go.

      What you have to look out for are these rent-a-rep locations. Yeah, you get to use the senator right away, but you end up having to pay so much more for them after the fees and what-not.

    4. Re:Disabled Citizens? by I'm+Don+Giovanni · · Score: 0

      You're showing your ignorance. "MS's word processors" do NOT cost "$300".

      Word 2003 costs $229, ($109 for the upgrade version)
      Microsoft Office 2003 Student/Teacher Edition costs $149, which includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook.
      Microsoft Works 8 costs $49, which includes a word processor (less functional than Word, but you just said "MS's word processors", not "Word").
      Microosft Works Suite 2006 costs $99, which includes Word.

      (Office itself does cost over $300 for the full version (the upgrade version is ~$230); Microsoft Office 2003 Standard Edition costs $330 ($106 at Amazon.com for used versions), which includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook.)

      Microsoft also provides both "Academic pricing" (a low low price for students and teachers) and "Volume pricing" (low price for high volume purchases).

      --
      -- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
    5. Re:Disabled Citizens? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      First of all, I'm not a student or a teacher. So the student/teacher price doesn't apply. Most people aren't students and teachers, so it's kind of nice that they give these people a break but that doesn't work for most people. Maybe they need a factory worker edition, since factory workers need word processors, and make less money. And I think there's more factory workers than teachers. Or maybe they need a senior citizen edition. I'm also not buying more than 1 copy, so the volume pricing doesn't apply to me either. You also stated that Word itself costs $229, but that MS Works costs $99 and include Word. That seems like some pretty weird pricing to me. You can get just word for $229, but you can get word plus extras for less than half the price? Is the MS Works 8 word processor completely compatible with MS Word? Word isn't even compatible with itself. How could I trust that a different program would be compatible. Then there's still the problem with upgrading every 3 years. Word 97 gives me all the features I need, but I can't use it anymore because they changed the file format so much since then. I have to upgrade all the time since I'm from experience I know that I won't be able to read the files from those who have the new version.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:Disabled Citizens? by LegendLength · · Score: 1

      Maybe they need a factory worker edition, since factory workers need word processors, and make less money.

      To me this would like forcing TV makers to do the same thing. Sell two TV sets, one priced for normal people and one priced at cost for factory workers.

      My point is that we have a graduated tax system and minimum ranges to solve these types of class issues. Regulating company prices or even morally pressuring companies to do so, is actually immoral in my opinion.

    7. Re:Disabled Citizens? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      But that's what they're doing with the student teacher edition. Making it cheaper for a certain group of people. It's too expensive for everyone. That's why everyone I know either pirates it or uses OO.o.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  15. Pacheco by pudge · · Score: 2, Informative

    Marc Pacheco used to be my Senator when I lived in MA. I didn't like him. He was entirely dismissive when we disagreed with him about a proposal to allow more dirt bikes in the state forest (he was ferit, we were aginit).

    1. Re:Pacheco by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's because even then, he was concerned about the rights of the disabled to ride dirt bikes.

  16. Other things to stay away from.. by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Here are just a few other standard, non-proprietary ideas with beginnings similar to ODF. If the distinguished Senator wishes to put his money where his mouth is, he'll have to avoid:
    • The Web - HTML is a non-proprietary file format that was developed without regard for every last accessibility option in mind. Who was thinking of screen readers in 1981?
    • In fact, the entire Internet - Who would have thought back when they came up with packet-switching networks in general and TCP in particular, that it would be used in the variety of ways we do now, and adapted to aid the disabled? No more use of digital networking devices for our esteemed Senator.
    • Television - When the first moving pictures were broadcast in the first half of the 20th Century, nobody had come up with a way for the hearing-impaired to more fully enjoy the content. Because it took until the 1970s to include sign-language translators in the lower corner of the screen (remember them?) and later develop closed captioning, modern TV should never have taken off like it did, and we should have fully investigated more proprietary standards than what was used. Boycott it all.
    • In fact, Faraday and his ilk weren't considering any of this when they were poking around the EM spectrum in the 19th century, so the Senator should avoid wireless transmissions entirely. No radio, no mobile phone, no ordering burgers through the drive-in speaker.
    • Speaking of driving, the inconsiderate cave person who developed the wheel never even bothered to take into account how to properly implement his or her creation in a wheelchair for the physically challenged. It took ages (literally!) before such a solution was put into practice. Screw the damned inconsiderate neolithics and their crappy invention. No wheels.
    1. Re:Other things to stay away from.. by Bob+of+Dole · · Score: 1
      The Web - HTML is a non-proprietary file format that was developed without regard for every last accessibility option in mind. Who was thinking of screen readers in 1981?


      And that's complete and utter bullshit brought on by looking at too much flash.
      The web was designed as the PERFECT accessible format. The user specifies the fonts, the size, the colors, hell even the wrapping.
      Do you know how much that pisses off multimedia designer types? Hence the web we have now. HTML became PDF, and that wasn't enough so some idiot made an embeddable interactive movie plugin.

      Every bit of accessibility, ruined. So yeah, the web is shit for accessibility NOW, but it was not designed like that.
    2. Re:Other things to stay away from.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, new technologies have rough edges and are not perfected yet, and they often are not perfected with respect to accessibility. But I wouldn't say using ODF is the same kind of bleeding-edge technology choice. It doesn't do that much more or different than the MS Office formats in terms of pure technical features. The openness is important, but so is accessibility, and in this case it can be reasonably argued that the state of MA is trading away accessibility solutions that everyone knows work, in favor of the openness of ODF. See the paradox? Throwing away one kind of openness to get another kind? With no major new features except free availability of software that people have accepted the notion of paying for? It's certainly an oversimplified argument; I'm just trying to get you to understand why this might be somewhat different from a trailblazing new technology.

      Also, I'm concerned that your view lends a little too much credence to the "realistic" challenges of making technologies more accessible. Why not hold ourselves to a higher standard and, in an age in which we understand and value accessibility, build that feature in from the start? This is an especially important question with regard to governments which need to serve all of their constituents.

    3. Re:Other things to stay away from.. by dkf · · Score: 1
      The Web - HTML [...] Who was thinking of screen readers in 1981?


      Nitpick: I thought the web was about a decade younger than that. 1981 was back when the IETF was nailing down many core features of the basic internet, and the key user-level apps were email (SMTP was created in 1981, according to what I can glean from the RFC index), telnet and ftp. At that time, even venerable NNTP was 5 years away from publication.
      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    4. Re:Other things to stay away from.. by xerxesdaphat · · Score: 1

      Nup. The internet, of course, has been around for ages, but Tim Berners-Lee (spelling?) wrote his ENQUIRE programme in 1981, IIRC. This was the ancestor of the Web, many things were different, but the essentials (such as hyperlinks) were all there. For more information, read Berners-Lee's excellent autobiography that I can't remember the name of.
                      Now that I re-read your post, it looks like you may have been confusing the internet with the World Wide Web. A strange thing for a slashdotter to do. The internet has been around since Al Gore invented it and called it ARPANET in 1969, which ties in with your decade-earlier thing. For those readers who don't know the difference between the 'net and the web, the internet is just the whole network thing of all the computers joined together, and on top of that you run different systems which use it, such as the web, or email, or ftp, or your favourite online role-playing game. Think of the internet as the telephone wires running around your country, but on top of those telephone wires you run the actual telephone service, and the fax service, and dial-up internet etc etc. A simplification but close enough.

      -Tommi =^_^=

      --
      The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife Are Some Jive Ass Slippers
  17. It's a nice litmus test issue... by cpu_fusion · · Score: 1

    ... to figure out which politicians in Massachusetts are for sale.

    1. Re:It's a nice litmus test issue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and for how much...

      http://www.cio.com/archive/040106/opensource.html? action=print

      Apparently, $600 buys you a grandstanding State House Senator. I wonder how much an actual law costs.

    2. Re:It's a nice litmus test issue... by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      Surely you're joking? Tell me which one *isn't* for sale. MA is just a few steps behind NJ on the corrupted politician scale...

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    3. Re:It's a nice litmus test issue... by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      Damit, we fell behind again?!!!!?!!!

      Just last week I made my monthly bribery payment, and now you're telling me it's not even getting top rate corruption?! What the hell is this state coming to?

  18. In related news, by posterlogo · · Score: 1
    Another MA state senator has recently voiced his opposition to the state endorsement of an Open Document format, decrying its lack of neurotransmitter support for people who cannot see, hear, touch, taste, or feel.

    Seriously though, even though we all know the "do it for the disabled" is a hoax in this case, when is the "lowest common denominator" mentality just too ridiculous? Law of diminishing returns... spend 20% of your resources to meet the needs of 80% of the people. Spend 80% of your resources to meet the needs of the remaining 20% of the people. The American's With Disabilities act must be one of the biggest scams of all time. Instead of treating people who have disabilities with respect, we've written patronizing and pity into law. Sue away...

    1. Re:In related news, by bigpat · · Score: 1

      That isn't exactly useful rhetoric. The fact is that using open formats has nothing to do with accessibility as there are third party plugins around in MS Office itself to read and write these standardized formats. Accessibility is just a last ditch talking point of Microsoft's marketing department to delay the mass exodus.

  19. Flame away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Marc Pacheco


    Let him know.

    Make him understand.

  20. But what's the cost savings? by popo · · Score: 3, Insightful


    To say that Opensource programs don't offer benefits to handicapped people -- a group who continuously gets short shrift when it comes to state and government budgeting -- is a little ironic.

    Why not transfer the cost savings of switching from MS Office to OO.org to a budget for handicapped services. I'm sure the handicapped population would be more than happy with that.

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
    1. Re:But what's the cost savings? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Becasue being handicapped means getting free stuff!

  21. It's always about the bottom line by kthejoker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As an employee of a state's executive branch, I can assure you that for us, cost is far and away the most important aspect in making any sort of A vs B comparison. Our entire system is driven by the lowest bidder. (And if you save $50 on something you don't care about, that means you get to spend $50 extra on something you do. Governors are very, VERY specific as to what they do and don't care about.)

    And ODF = free.

    In fact, I'm fairly certain that if Massachusetts wanted to hire 5-10 developers to create a program to deal with ODFs in a disability-accessible manner, it still wouldn't cost as much as using proprietary software.

    1. Re:It's always about the bottom line by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

      And ODF = free.
      Technically, ODF is just a file format. The reader and writer can be a cost. In the form of OpenOffice or any other of the F/OSS that can read/write it, it's free.

      That said, if they were to convert to OOo, there would be a training cost for both end users and IT. I think, this is the main reason why MS will not release a plug-in. If they do, then there is MUCH less cost in associated to going to OOo. The transition cost is pretty much the only barrier they have right now to prevent moving. ODF already does things that binary word files can't, and the higher end things it's currently lacking are not necessary for the docs that MAss needs to save at this point.

    2. Re:It's always about the bottom line by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

      Actually, OpenDocument is the file format. The people that created the format have stated that they have a plugin for Microsoft Office (Every version from Office 97 to the current version) that will allow Microsoft Office to read and write the OpenDocument format.

      This is an excellent way to transition in the government. Start everyone out with the same software they have now, just adding the free plugin to office. As new systems are bought, install Openoffice or another free application and give the computer to the new desk, without buying new licenses for Microsoft office.

      If it turns out that the new desktop is to go to someone with a disability, give him one of the older desktops with Microsoft office or put on Linux on the desktop in addition to OpenOffice. Most desktop versions of linux have screen readers and other accessibility options as part of the OS.

      --
      Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
  22. Marc Pacheco takes money from MS by SQLz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Marc didn't give a crap till MS made it worth his time with a couple mil in free licenses.

  23. State Senator != Senator by renard · · Score: 4, Informative
    An anonymous reader writes to mention a ZDNet article on Massachusetts senator Marc Pacheco's OpenDocument study....

    "Massachusetts Senator" == (Edward "Ted" Kennedy || John Kerry)

    Marc Pacheco is a "Massachusetts State Senator", i.e. one of 40 members of the upper house of the bicameral Massachusetts state legislature.

    Big difference.

  24. Not OpenDoc by T-Ranger · · Score: 1

    For the love of all that is holy, please dont ever bring up OpenDoc again.

  25. Small battles by T-Ranger · · Score: 1

    This battle is about getting wide spread support for a open document format. Currently the best app implementing that (well, best implementation of ODF by an app) happens to be an OSS package.

    But for this battle it is OK, and possibly better, if MS adopts the format. Its better, over the mid term, because it would mean that on the next upgrade cycle everyone MS users would just get ODF support, implicitly. And that would mean that future purchasing decisions wouldnt have the same high profile, and thus would be less likely to be politicalicized. And that would mean that in 2012, OpenOffice 3.5 and MS Office 2015 would compete on technical and price considerations alone.

  26. MS contributed by LiquidEdge · · Score: 0, Redundant

    This guy got contributions from Microsoft. Now, it was only $600 over 3 years, so not sure if it's even worth repeating, but there it is. http://www.cio.com/archive/040106/opensource.html? action=print

    --
    Saving the World: One Drink at a Time
  27. ignorance... by just_forget_it · · Score: 1

    and we let people this ignorant about technology regulate it.

  28. Attention Senator Pacheco by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Attention Senator Pacheco. Your check from Microsoft is waiting. Please pick it up in the parking lot from the man in the low hat, dark trenchcoat, and sunglasses.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Attention Senator Pacheco by caramuru · · Score: 1

      Actually, the check would be picked up in the 21st Amendment, a bar across the street from the Massachusetts Statehouse, that is popular with lobbyists, legislators, and other political types.

  29. Quite a bit really by James+Wells · · Score: 1

    Greetings,

    There are quite a few mis-understandings in your comment, which I would guess, are the same mis-understandings held by the bozo from Mass.

    1. Microsoft has proven over and over again, that they do not adhere to their own document standards. Because of this a document that you create today in M$ office, may be readable next year in M$ Office 2007, but what about in 2015? 2030? Additionally, due to the way M$ works, you cannot implement a version of their "standard" in your own software without paying a fee, and as they have demostrated, you pay the fee, they change the format, you have to pay again.

    2. Microsoft created an "Open Standard" document format which they submitted for evaluation, however, there were 3 keys that failed to meet the minimum criteria, A) Would not be available until the next version of M$ Office. B) Required a license from M$ to use. C) Was not compatible with any existing "Open" license or agreement, as such it could not be used in StarOffice, OpenOffice, kOffice, Gnumeric, etc, and even then, if M$ changed their license, it could not be implemented until M$ finalized the standard. ODF is already supported in at least 3 office suites, and two of those support it natively as well as their own standard.

    3. No office package out there supports only a single document format, however, none of them support their competitor's formats at anything more than basic level. Because of this, though you could read a WordPerfect document in Word, you may not be able to properly edit it while retaining all of it's embedded information. Same thing going the other way. Now, to make matters even worse, no single document format out there, save ODF, supports all office functions in a single format. In M$ Office, you have a Doc fomat, an Excel format, a PPT format, etc. ODF is a single format specification that can be used by all of them.

    4. The reason a standard is needed, is quite simply to save our documentation for the future. We cannot be sure that M$ will still be around in 40 years, 50 years, 100 years, so relying on their "Open Standard", which as stated previously requires a license from M$ to use, may not be legally usable in the future. With ODF, since it is a true Open Standard, as in the public domain now, means that it can be used legally at any time and for any reason.

    Now, on a different tack, This is simply a document format / storage standard. This is not an application standard, which the bozo from Mass is implying. By saying that all documents must be stored in ODF, does not mean that you have to use any one application to do it, simply that the application you use, must store the document in the ODF format.

    --
    "Individuals are smart, people are stupid" -- Tommy Lee Jones as "K" from Men In Black
  30. Paging Pot, Kettle Calling by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The process, quite frankly, was driven by one individual in a very powerful position (Kriss) issuing a memo to an individual in a less powerful position (Quinn).

    Seems to me that Senator Pacheco wanted to make the decision himself -- just in the opposite direction!

    And this whole more powerful/less powerful discussion sounds like an overdose of Politically Correct thinking, which makes him a danger as anybody's senator.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Paging Pot, Kettle Calling by BCW2 · · Score: 1

      How much was donated to his re-election fund by M$? I think that will answer all questions.

      --
      Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
    2. Re:Paging Pot, Kettle Calling by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      Six hundred dollars, says an earlier post in the thread.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  31. And for also... by papal_authority · · Score: 2, Informative

    Besides this guy's confusion of data format versus application as others have mentioned, why does he think that all disabled people (and abled people for that matter) have $399USD kicking around for a copy of Microsoft Office? Bizarre.

    1. Re:And for also... by tinkerghost · · Score: 1
      Besides this guy's confusion of data format versus application as others have mentioned, why does he think that all disabled people (and abled people for that matter) have $399USD kicking around for a copy of Microsoft Office? Bizarre.

      Sigh, I was going to use the Bush Sr. & the grocery store ancecdote here but Snopes says it's not what it's cracked up to be.

      Guess I'll have to fall back to the standard: Because he's a clueless pratt who just got a $30M 'donation' to the state education system by MS - so obviously creating any standard not MS's is bad.

  32. You're Missing the Point by nathanh · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Does OpenOffice or any of the other semi-mature non-Microsoft applications have support for disabilities at or better than MS Office? Most people who are not completely blinded by ideology will say honestly, "not yet".

    You're confusing the document format with one of the many applications that can read/write that format. The state mandate was for Open Document. You're complaining that Open Office - one of 15 applications that can read/write Open Document - is inferior to Microsoft Office.

    Microsoft could quite easily write a plugin to read/write Open Document. Microsoft Office already support dozens of other formats of dubious quality and relevance. Open Document is clearly relevant and IMO of very high quality. Why is Open Document such a problem for Microsoft? I think I know why. Do you?

    1. Re:You're Missing the Point by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      You're complaining that Open Office - one of 15 applications that can read/write Open Document - is inferior to Microsoft Office.

      Actually, I think the complaint is that all of the 15 applications in question are inferior to Microsoft Office. And right now, that's a valid complaint.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:You're Missing the Point by wangotango · · Score: 1

      No point missed.... If I were MS, I would just watch them hang and swing.

    3. Re:You're Missing the Point by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think the complaint is that all of the 15 applications in question are inferior to Microsoft Office. And right now, that's a valid complaint.

      That's simply not true in any meaningful way. The only specific comparison that I've heard that favors Microsoft Office is this accessibility thing. For normal usage, all of these apps offer about the same functionality.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    4. Re:You're Missing the Point by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      It very much is true in many meaningful ways. Go ahead and check my posting history, and the comments of others in the same discussions. We've previously enumerated plenty of ways OpenOffice applications are objectively inferior to their Microsoft Office counterparts, from little use of shortcut keys in Writer to limited graphing facilities in Calc. We've also covered plenty of areas that were more subjective but where the general concensus was that OpenOffice's UI was more awkward or limiting, e.g., the whole data sources mess for mail merging, the very poor on-line help in OO, and of course the accessibility issues we're discussing today.

      As a long time user of both product lines, I maintain that OpenOffice applications are not yet in the same league as MS Office. They lack both the power and the usability. Sure, you can write a letter in Writer just as easily, but then you can write a letter in your OS's basic text editor, too.

      I always add a disclaimer at this point, to be clear that I'm not knocking OpenOffice per se. It's great that we have access to a basic suite of office software for free, and it's a much newer product range. But it's no MS Office beater, and serious users with non-trivial requirements aren't going to consider it so until a lot has changed.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  33. OT: Mod coment by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Thats some bad moderation going on there. It was midly funny, but what insight does it bring? If anything, as all posters that have replied to the post indicate, he completely misunderstood the GP post. I don't have mod points otherwise I'd mod it down myself.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  34. Re:Yeah right by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting
    There is no player for this format (yet), but that shouldn't stop its adoption since that's the playing application's responsibility. Surely a lack of application support shouldn't get in the way of adopting my clearly superior, open format, should it?

    You're right - that would be ridiculous. Since the OpenDocument Foundation released an OpenDocument plugin for Word, at least Massachusetts won't have to deal with any bizarre scenarios like that with their word processing.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  35. Re:Unusual statement in summary by PitaBred · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Since when did Belgium lose it's status as a sovereign state?

  36. I'm disabled... by CptPicard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... and although my own disability doesn't restrict my computer use in any way, I still find this kind of ideological abuse totally disgusting. Open standards are, in the end, beneficial for access by everybody using any chosen access means. This includes not only the disabled, but everyone else as well. It is immaterial that things like screen readers may not exist yet.. they can be produced, and will be, if the specs are available. Anybody with even slight programming experience will know that in this case existing software is probably easy to modify to just read the new format into the program's internal representation. Contrast this with whatever limited access proprietary formats' owners choose to grant -- and to whom -- in order to look good.

    Not to mention these same guys at this end of the political spectrum in general typically won't give a shit about disabled people's rights in anything, as mostly, we're just "bad for the economy". Apparently we can still be "useful" in some situations.

    They should just speak for themselves and not get all caring and compassionate all of a sudden when it serves their own interest.

    --
    I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
    1. Re:I'm disabled... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a crock!

      "Anyone with any programming expereince will know...." you clearly don't have any programming experience in writing a screen reader. If it were so easy, IBM and RedHat would have pumped one out MONTHS ago, since they are the companies behind the ODF move. They are looking for state contracts, and if they could just dump out a screen reader and solve everything, they would have.

      Moreover, He isn't pandering; the Disabled community leaders in MA are the ones that brought this problem to the attention of Pacheco, not outside forces. Frankly, none of the outside people had even thought of the effect on disabled until after the policy was announced. This goes way beyond just reading a single document, this issue goes to the employability of disabled people by the State government.

      There are no applicable tools that give people the same capability to process .odf files like they can with .doc - that may change with time, but until those tools are available, you are making a blind person unemployable. And Pacheco understands the diff between format at application, the problem is, if you read the policy carefully (look at page 18), it essentally mandates which programs are acceptable to use.

      And don't even think of pulling out the "gee, if Microsoft just supported ODF"... bag of flaming poo. Just take a look at what Adobe did. When Microsoft announced they would support Adobe's ISO approved pdf format, they threatened to sue!

      The moment MSFT announced support for ODF, somone would bring an anti-trust tying complaint against Microsoft.

      If you actually cared about the empoyability of the disabled, you'd take a look at what the real costs of a transition to ODF would mean -- Jobs, time, focus, energy and so on. Yes, it may end up being worth it, but don't give weak platitiudes like "ohh, everything would be so rosy if we all used open formats and sang kumbahya".

      The state needs to produce real numbers, including the costs of service contracts, the costs to develop new software, the roll out plan, the backup plan... you know things you do when you want to migrate tens of thousands of users.

      The original 22 page ETRM v3.5 lacked any hard numbers and analysis. When the state has that, THEN we can talk about the value of the program.

    2. Re:I'm disabled... by CptPicard · · Score: 1

      Interesting you should choose to post this AC, though you seem to raise at least seemingly valid points.

      you clearly don't have any programming experience in writing a screen reader. If it were so easy, IBM and RedHat would have pumped one out MONTHS ago, since they are the companies behind the ODF move. They are looking for state contracts, and if they could just dump out a screen reader and solve everything, they would have.

      Correct, I don't. I don't see why you couldn't just read ODF into something like Emacspeak, though. Screen readers read web pages; ODF has way better structural information than your typical HTML page. It is, again, immaterial to me whether we have ODF-screenreading capacity NOW -- it will eventually appear, and in the long term, the disability community is shooting itself in the foot if, because of short term benefit, they accept a vendor lock-in.

      Moreover, He isn't pandering; the Disabled community leaders in MA are the ones that brought this problem to the attention of Pacheco, not outside forces. ... There are no applicable tools that give people the same capability to process .odf files like they can with .doc - that may change with time, but until those tools are available, you are making a blind person unemployable. And Pacheco understands the diff between format at application, the problem is, if you read the policy carefully (look at page 18), it essentally mandates which programs are acceptable to use.

      Then the disabled community leaders themselves are bought and/or idiots, and Pacheco is still just trying to score points. If there is any real worry on the part of disabled, I can appreciate that they might want to cover their asses in the short term and are not neccessarily interested in doing what is right/good for them and everyone else in general. The employability by State government issue is best handled by dealing with whatever weird policies are in place saying that a disabled person is not employable by State government unless this disabled person works by using a Microsoft product :-) I suspect this has something to do with accessibility requirements and the litigious environment over there in the USA -- that is, a disabled person suing the hell out of government in the hope of a big payoff if there is any excuse... in that case, I am not really defending this kind of a person. Militancy out of principle was never my thing, as pragmatism and some goodwill goes a long way both ways.

      And don't even think of pulling out the "gee, if Microsoft just supported ODF"... bag of flaming poo. Just take a look at what Adobe did. When Microsoft announced they would support Adobe's ISO approved pdf format, they threatened to sue!

      Nothing stops them. The OSS community is not Adobe, and ODF is an open standard. Which part of that do you not understand? You're fear-mongering with an irrelevant example.

      Yes, it may end up being worth it, but don't give weak platitiudes like "ohh, everything would be so rosy if we all used open formats and sang kumbahya".

      No pain, no gain.

      --
      I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  37. needs of many or few? by drac0n1z · · Score: 1

    am glad he worries about disabled ppl but what about people who cant afford Microsoft products or the PCs to run more than windows 98? I live in South-Africa and once a month someone brings a windows 98 PC in for repairs. Linux runs much faster on old hardware and the sooner ppl can start using open office ect instead of being forced into a Microsoft universe the better. how many disabled people actually read government documents anyway? I'm not disabled but I never ever before read an offical document from the government.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:needs of many or few? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disabled people probably read more gov documents than non-disabled.
      In my experience, disabled people and charities just warez m$ stuff anyway.. and as M$ is quick to point out, its accessibility functionality is just basic, and proprietary solutions are recommended.

  38. Re:Yeah right by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 1

    Probably a troll but...

    1) there are multiple apps that do read thiis format.
    2) it isn't hard for MS to create a converter for this. When they wanted to convert WordPerfect users to Word, they not only created a plug in for multiple WP formats, but had a WP mode within Word.
    3) it's not some guy in his basement wrote this. It's an ECMA standard.

    MS has long known the power of network effects. In the beginning it would do anything to give away software, just so they'd try it, and establish network effects. In some ways it was like shareware... they'd hope you pay for it (and most did) but the few that didn't they didn't mind much.

    Now that they are market dominance, they already have the "network", the hundreds of thousands users that interact though Word. It's very hard for people to break the "network" of Word, and MS relies on that. the only real way is to chip at the edges (very slowly) or have a large agency mandate it. Mass. and Belgium doing this can cause real damage in the long term as a new non-MS network emerges.

  39. WRONG by geekoid · · Score: 1

    A smart company gives money to both sides so they can own both of them.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  40. A different point of view... by MBC1977 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Without a doubt Microsoft is a for-profit company, good or evil being the decision of the individual consumer.
    Is Microsoft Office (to include its file formats) an open standard. No, however they are a 'de facto standard'.
    ODF while an open standard, true will gain more users overtime, but to simply dismiss proprietory software companies
    simply because they won't 'open' their standards is foolish. The question of how Microsoft gained their 'de facto' standard,
    I'll leave to others, I simply look at it like this, their software works, I've never had a problem getting other document formats
    to work in Word or any other MS application, (or for that matter any of their applications / operating systems). Some people do have
    issues with them, true, I've fixed / patched enough computers with their software to know that. I'll even be so bold to say a lot of the
    problems, are user generated, though some have been squarely on Microsoft's shoulders. Be that as it may, considering the investment (or
    loss of investment) a lot of the Anything But Microsoft crowd is advocating is highly significant. Accepting open standards, just because
    they are open, sometimes is not the best way to proceed (think of the too many chefs in the kitchen theory).

    Not saying I'm right, but I am saying dismissing a Microsoft solution, just because its Microsoft sometimes is kinda stupid I think.

    Regards,

    MBC1977,
    (US Marine, College Student, and Good Guy!)

    --
    Regards,

    MBC1977,
    1. Re:A different point of view... by spitzak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You don't have to "dismiss a Microsoft solution". Microsoft just has to write an import/export code for ODF. It will probably take them just one day. Everybody here admits that MSWord is probably the most capable and powerful program and Microsoft would probably lose nothing by doing this except for lock-in.

      Your own post says "I've never had a problem getting other document formats to work in Word or any other MS application". Despite this, Microsoft is trying their hardest to make sure you have a "problem" when that other document format is ODF. Maybe you want to think a little bit about exactly why this is true, and come back and say something a little more sensible.

    2. Re:A different point of view... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Accepting open standards, just because they are open, sometimes is not the best way to proceed.

      Yes, but dismissing them for public use because they are closed is the best way to proceed.

    3. Re:A different point of view... by trewornan · · Score: 1

      Everybody here admits that MSWord is probably the most capable and powerful program

      Err . . . ASSUMPTION WARNING!! No everybody here does not admit that MSWord is probably the most capable and powerful program. Most bloated with unnecessary features, yes; roughly as good as most alternatives, yes; most capable and powerful, no not really.

  41. contacting marc pacheco by flacco · · Score: 1
    his web page is here:

    http://www.mass.gov/legis/member/mrp0.htm

    his e-mail address is:

    Marc.Pacheco@state.ma.us

    let this corrupt little vermin know what you think of him.

    --
    pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
  42. The wonderful thought process of government... by SpectreHiro · · Score: 1

    So because OpenDocument can't help everyone, it shouldn't help anyone? What kind of moronic politician -- sorry, I repeat myself -- thinks this is an intelligent decision?

    True story... I worked a poll during a recent election in California. One of the many interesting bureaucratic foibles that caught my attention was the fact that all polls must post signs stating that there are no public restrooms... Even if there are in fact public restrooms on the premises. The reasoning was that they couldn't afford to ensure that all restrooms were handicapped accessible - So there simply weren't restrooms for anyone.

    Better yet, I was working a location that was publically owned (a learning annex type place), which included handicapped accessible restrooms. Still "No Public Restrooms."

    There's something magical about the way government works.

    --
    You can't win, Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
  43. Ok when was the last time you used openoffice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    * zoom for readability
    Open Office can zoom. Interface or file under view independly. With a macro this can be assigned to keys. Has been since 1.0.x.
            * reading layout view
    No TTS reason for that is not there.
            * keyboard shortcuts
    All that is there just a changable and MS office.
            * and don't forget scroll with your mouse
    Scroll with mouse is there Zoom with mouse was not the last time I checked. This could have changed.

    Some one hire a person for a few months to enbed festival into OpenOffice and add the Zoom with mouse features and MS Office will have not advanage in this field at all. The savings of switching could pay for the programmer to do this.

    Openoffice works ok with external Text readers. Yes it would be better if they were internal.

    Just setting it up is the problem. The features are just not pefectly default.

    1. Re:Ok when was the last time you used openoffice by Lemm · · Score: 1

      Nurse! We need a sense of humour for this patient, STAT!

      --
      No boom today. Boom tomorrow. Always boom tomorrow. BOOM!
    2. Re:Ok when was the last time you used openoffice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some one hire a person for a few months to enbed festival into OpenOffice

      If you're going to embed festival you might want to spend some time making it
      less of a steaming pile of crap...

  44. Politics by nighty5 · · Score: 1

    "The process, quite frankly, was driven by one individual in a very powerful position"

    This is eseentially the problem with the majority of politically driven initatives.

    Pull your head out of your ass Senator, this happens far too many times, with far greater consequences than a mere document format.

    I'm talking about the stuff "that really matters" - health, economics, welfare, jobs, civil rights etc.

    Sick of death of how govenments operate.

  45. More choice does not imply better results by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    The truth of it is that open formats allow the customer to decide what's best for him, without fear of finding himself at the mercy of a single, predatory vendor.

    You are arguing the politically-trendy fallacy that more choice implies better results. This holds only if the optimal result is one of the available choices, which isn't automatically the case. Indeed, it may be that the resources necessary to provide multiple choices could better be invested in a single approach that will be better than all of the multiple choices as a result.

    In this case, the anti-MS argument is flawed because no tool currently available that uses ODF is even close to beating MS Office in several important areas, which apparently include support for people with various disabilities. Mandating the use of ODF would thus not be in the immediate interests of those who use office applications in MA and use those areas of the product.

    Now, whether mandating open specifications for public documents is in the long-term interests of the people of MA is a different question. You could certainly make a case that it is, if you believe the move to standardise on ODF would probably result in MS Office supporting the format at least as well as it supports the proprietary formats used at present, or that other, better choices will become available. But for this argument to have any merit, it needs to show why the long-term benefits outweigh any short-term disadvantages, and that the short-term disadvantages aren't show-stoppers. This appears to be where the senator sees a problem (or has had one shown to him by Microsoft; it doesn't really matter).

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:More choice does not imply better results by grcumb · · Score: 1

      "You are arguing the politically-trendy fallacy that more choice implies better results."

      I am not arguing anything of the kind. I am arguing long-term risk management.

      This issue has almost nothing to do with software performance, features or other intangibles. It has to do with ensuring that data will remain available and usable for an indefinite period, using an unknowable array of automation processes. Proprietary binary formats, especially when one considers their history, have little to offer in this regard. Open, text-based, standards-based specifications designed with exactly this kind of flexibility in mind, on the other hand, are quite appealing.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  46. so let me get this straight... by smash · · Score: 1
    ... if they "standardize" on .doc format, come 2007/2008 when office 2k7 comes out, all their blind users would need to pay a few hundred dollars to read the new document format.

    ... if they standardize on opendoc, there's a free plugin to download for any version of office released in the last decade or so, and they're golden.

    How the fuck is this a problem? And how the fuck is a non-technical asshat like this senator having any input into what is, essentially, a document control/IT problem?

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  47. Yes it does by mangu · · Score: 0
    You are arguing the politically-trendy fallacy that more choice implies better results. This holds only if the optimal result is one of the available choices, which isn't automatically the case.


    You are arguing from a purely theoretical point of view. In practical situations, Nature abhors a vacuum. In a truly free market when a solution is needed someone will provide it.


    Indeed, it may be that the resources necessary to provide multiple choices could better be invested in a single approach that will be better than all of the multiple choices as a result.


    Surely, if you enumerate all the possibilities, then this may be one of the resulting scenarios. But there are other possible situations. It may also be that the resources necessary to provide the one choice that the monopolistic overlord provides could better be invested in one or more alternative approaches.


    In this case, the anti-MS argument is flawed because no tool currently available that uses ODF is even close to beating MS Office in several important areas, which apparently include support for people with various disabilities.


    Since means for using ODF in MS-Office have already been developed, the argument for ODF stands on a very solid basis. People with disabilities can continue to use MS-Office, if they want or need to.


    for this argument to have any merit, it needs to show why the long-term benefits outweigh any short-term disadvantages, and that the short-term disadvantages aren't show-stoppers.


    This has been amply demonstrated, case closed, bring in the ODF.

  48. How to tell if it's pandering by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    Children or a minority is mentioned.

  49. do you people even use computers? by mliikset · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the version of xml being called odf is only a means of saving a document, presumably the original. how many times has microsoft made changes to word that made documents generated by older versions unreadable? so the solution is fairly obvious; save the doc in odf, and when a copy with more features is needed/wanted, simply use the office suite to add them. access for the blind/handicapped exists for even plain text, so that's a bullshit argument.

    anyway, microsoft can add that format option easily from the published specs, they are only dragging their feet because they want to get paid for holding information hostage.

    anti-odf people are not helping anyone, not even themselves.

  50. FIXED by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    (US Marine, College Student, and Good Guy!)

    Aren't the marines professional killers? Given US history on foreign policy, I think we can all agree that the marines are not always the good guys. So I think you put the inverting exclamation in the wrong place in the pecular pseudo code above, it should be:

    (US Marine, College Student, !and Good Guy)

    Naturally it depends both on how "Good Guy" is defined and the evaluation rules of this language, however IMHO it's not advisable to use doublespeak in variable names.

    This is the thing. It's far easier to reverse engineer simple pseudocode than undocumented proprietry file formats and MSFT don't produce an open-source reader for linux, it has taken years for the community to reverse engineer the .doc format. If your position is that a single corporation that has been found guilty of breaching anti-trust violations on 3 continents should be permitted to control and limit public access to public information, you should explain the benefits.

    PS: I recognise the need for a military and I'm sure you are a good guy, I just can't help myself.

  51. It's just electoral math by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    like blind people?

    Like any group of people small enough not to make a difference in our elections. Any system that ultimately comes down to one candidate/party getting the most votes will always be vulnerable to electoral mathematics, where resources are concentrated on enough groups of sufficient size to secure those votes, to the exclusion of all others.

    It's far from ideal, and I'm sure it does disadvantage many groups. I don't think it's a very good system. But as long as it's what we've got, my previous statement will hold, even if that means screwing blind people, black people, women, the unemployed, or for that matter, white, middle-class males. They're not being screwed because of those properties, they're being screwed on the basis of whether their group has enough votes to make a significant difference at election time.

    To beat this, you'd need a reform of the electoral voting method.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  52. Yet Another Example... by NexFlamma · · Score: 1

    This is yet another example (and a fine one, at that) of the idea that our elected representatives utterly lack any comprehension of how current tech actually works and affects our lives.

    This lack of knowledge leads to issues like TFA, as well as the **AA's raping of our copyright laws, and the rampant policy wrangling of the Telco's.

    Screw this, I'm moving to the moon.

  53. question for Mr. John Winske by rs232 · · Score: 1

    "Microsoft Office has built-in help for people with disabilities ..
    .. OpenDocument-based products do not yet"
    - John Winske

    Why a document standard would affect a screen reader defies logic. Could you list any functionality that Microsoft Office provides the disabled that you believe does not exist in Open Source. May I remind you that the American Foundation of the Blind (AFB) awarded Gnome and Sun the Helen Keller Achievement Award in 2002. Sun being one of the originators of Open Office.

    In this document we have Adobe answering some of the points raised in the "Joint Statement on Open Source & Open Documents in Massachusetts" released by your Disability Policy Consortium and the Bay State Council of the Blind.

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  54. OpenDoc vs OpenDocument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OpenDoc and OpenDocument are two different things:

    • OpenDoc - a framework for compound documents, simialr to OLE
    • OpenDocument - a universal office format

    A small number of OpenDoc references are honest mistakes, like the previous post, but by and large many are done repeatedly and on purporse by various MS' shills and sock-puppets to further confuse the issue: "Saturate, Diffuse and Confuse"

  55. Accessibilty result of 3rd party add-ons by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 1
    In this case, the [pro-free market] argument is flawed because no tool currently available that uses ODF is even close to beating MS Office in several important areas, which apparently include support for people with various disabilities. Mandating the use of ODF would thus not be in the immediate interests of those who use office applications in MA and use those areas of the product.

    The key modifier there is currently. If you read up on the topic you'll notice that accessibility support currently in MS Office is all from third parties and possible in spite of MS. Looking even a few quarters ahead, these third party vendors would have a much easier time dealing with the well-documented, relatively stable APIs provided by applications currently supporting the OpenDocument format, rather than dealing with undocumented, and often hidden APIs that change with each new version. In other words, the makers of accessibility software would have an easer time (read: more money) if they could get people enough people away from MS Office.

    Another key point is that Massachusetts is talking about a phased roll out, not a Ballmeresque "rip and replace". There will be a place in the system for a few years where legacy apps can be used by those that have to.

    However, MS could always choose to support OpenDocument and render the whole debate about applications moot. MS has been encouraged and invited to participate in OpenDocument's development since very early on. And wasn't MS talking a lot of crap recently about how MS Office could support arbitrary XML schemas? If that's the case, then it should be able to handle OpenDocument just fine. However, I'd bet about 99% of your typical non-visually impaired government office workers probably can't tell which office suite they're using anyway. WordPerfect, AppleWorks, KOffice, OpenOffice.org, etc. - to them they're all just MS Word, no joke. "Word ®" seems to have become generic for "Word Processing".

    The debate there in Massachusetts was about formats anyway and not applications. Besides it's over, and OpenDocument will be rolled out as departments can begin supporting it. There are a lot of vendors that would like a piece of that action.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  56. problems for the ddisabled? by ferin · · Score: 1

    I actually feel vaguely qualified to comment on this, as someone who is learning disabled and worked extensively with the Office for Disability Services at my university (think really big and in ohio). I freely admit I'm a technical and open source moron, but I do know that when we worked with the adaptive software vendors they told us the programs we purchased were designed to work with pretty much any format of document and almost any program. Most of the reps really took pains to make sure that their software was compatible with the widest possible array of formats and programs, cause a lot of the standard office programs have to be dumped in favor of other solutions that are more friendly to the physically impaired students. I'm having an rather enormous amount of trouble seeing how and open source standard is going to hurt access for the disabled.