PlayStation 3 Manufacturing Not Started Yet?

aapold writes "Despite reports to the contrary, Sony Computer Entertainment American president Kaz Hirai states in an interview on Gamespot last week that 'We haven't started manufacturing yet. Some of our ops guys were actually just in China, and also in Japan just reviewing the [production] lines and everything else. But they are, again, preparing as we speak to get the manufacturing going. We've not announced and we haven't set really a specific date to say, 'As of this day we're going to start manufacturing.'"

Comments

But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[LiquidCoooled]

They are really pushing out the boat, don't get a PS3 have a girly PS2 instead!

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[apoc06]

lol @ OP. cant blame sony; it worked for the DS, right?

on topic: manufacturing of the ps3 hasnt started yet. they have the component manufacturers completing and stockpiling components for the time being.

it doesnt make sense to have millions of completed ps3s sitting in a warehouse waiting to be stolen. besides, sony doesnt have to worry about paying to store the ps3s until they are completed. right now its each component manufacturers responsibility to store the components. its a standard manufacturing procedure to wait until the absolute latest minute before shipping to actually assemble the fully completed product.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[masklinn]

Is it me or is that thing ugly as a sin?

I mean the "Royal Pink" DS are not that good looking, but at least the design of the product doesn't clash with the color, this thing on the other hand really shouldn't have seen the sun, ever.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[fbjon]

this thing on the other hand really shouldn't have seen the sun, ever.

I don't think it will. The few units that are sold will be hoarded in dark, damp basements by collectors of arcane and wacky hardware.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks kinda cool to me.

It has that Candy Raver color look to it. Yummy.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[MBCook]

It makes PERFECT sense to have them sitting in a warehouse. Remember the PS2? This is going to be worse. They need stock to sell. If they had any brains and had the ability, they would be cranking them out so they could sell them. Remember that when they got for $2000 on eBay, Sony only gets the origonal $500 or $600. They want more to sell, and making them now would allow that.

Despite all the (sometimes tremendous) screw ups around the PS3, I don't think they are THAT stupid. They aren't making them becuase they can't. The design isn't final, there are cell chip yield problems, they need more blu-ray drives, whatever. If they could make them, I think they would.

I know shortages get free press, but they will get enough of that anyway. If they can make an extra 1,000,000 units I don't think it would stop a shortage if that was distributed world wide. There would still be a shortage, but they would sell more.

Unless they are holding back because despite their predictions they don't think a $600 toy will sell well (especially compared to a 360 that seems very similar and is chaper, and the Wii which is innovative and MUCH cheaper).

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[iocat]

Humidity will ruin your collection. If you need to keep your stuff with you down in mom's basement, you should invest in a good dehumdifier. Darkness is good though. I suggest the attic.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[spun]

it doesnt make sense to have millions of completed ps3s sitting in a warehouse waiting to be stolen.

Yeah, let's get rid of warehouses altogether. Nothing but dark cesspits of crime. I say the right time to start production on any item is the moment someone actually purchases it. Otherwise it's just going to sit around someplace and get stolen.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[apoc06]

sony is king of screwups, i admit that much. however meeting their goal of creating 2 million units by the end of the year will /still/ make for a shortage some how some way. 2 million consoles in four months isnt /that/ outrageous of a goal to meet IMHO.

given that sony has been manufacturing consumer electronics for decades and have seen their fair share of shortages, i dont think that their plan itself is the cause for any shortage. they know what they are capable of, if everything works according to plan. component shortages, unseen defect problems, floods, earthquakes, and various acts of god of war(TM) not withstanding.

feel free to continue to discuss various conspiracy theories whilst i fasten my tinfoil hat.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[Quino]

Actually, this is one of the principles of modern manufacturing: Toyota lean production methods, just-in-time manufacturing, etc.

http://searchcio.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid 19_gci810519,00.html

I'm not saying that I think this is what's going on with Sony, but going away from massive warehousing has been a "revelation" in modern mass production .

Warehousing is *bad*, you're paying for storage for stuff to just sit there, and when you're talking about millions of units the amount of money wasted can be huge. Of course, what you want to do is to have the manufacturing set up to meet demand with the minimum amount of storage possible. The concern isn't theft (maybe it's then 100th concern), but cost.

Here's a summary (copied from the above link) that summarizes Toyota Production Methods (now, of course, widely emulated with varying degrees of success by other companies, industries, around the world):

1. Eliminate waste
2. Minimize inventory
3. Maximize flow
4. Pull production from customer demand
5. Meet customer requirements
6. Do it right the first time
7. Empower workers
8. Design for rapid changeover
9. Partner with suppliers
10. Create a culture of continuous improvement

Vast warehousing is so 1980s! (and a sign of inneficient manufacturing).

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[spun]

Oh, I know, I was trying to be funny by taking it to extremes. Obviously "just-in-time" manufacturing is more efficient than warehousing, but waiting until after an item is purchased is really "a-little-too-late" manufacturing. Some storage is needed.

there is absolutely no way Sony can meet initial demand by waiting until the ship date to start making consoles! Just-in-time means having enough product in the pipeline to meet expected demand.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[Quino]

:)

Sorry, I definitely sometimes suffer from humor-detection deficiencies.

That, and I've recently started re-reading my old notes from my manufacturing class (which really was a Toyota love-fest), so lean production methods are on my mind.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[jhdevos]

It makes PERFECT sense to have them sitting in a warehouse. Remember the PS2? This is going to be worse. They need stock to sell. If they had any brains and had the ability, they would be cranking them out so they could sell them. Remember that when they got for $2000 on eBay, Sony only gets the origonal $500 or $600. They want more to sell, and making them now would allow that.

On the other hand, they probably have the ability to assemble the machines pretty fast. The problem is that the manufacturing of some components (such as the Cell processor) wouldn't be able to keep pace with the assemblage process, and so it makes sence to wait with assembling until there is a good stockpile of components to be assembled.

Jan

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[TommydCat]

You happen to bump into anyone from the X-box team in that class?

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[Quino]

haha not that I know of -- the class was many moons ago (well over ten years ago).

But the professor who taught the class did consult for many firms (mostly American), and at the time he expressed constant frustration at the half-hearted implementation of modern quality manufacturing methods in the US. At the time he claimed that there was not a single worthwhile book written in English on sound quality manufacturing methods; our syllabus was almost entirely translated Japanese articles.

Of course, the key to lean production is to gauge demand and to prepare production to meet that demand -- which is admittedly tricky. I'm assuming you're refering to Xbox production shortages: these could be caused by unexpected glitches (which is exactly what Toyota production methods excel at preventing), or unprecendent and unexpected demand for your widgets which go beyond your own proyections (which is what I suspect happened with the Prius for example. I say I suspect this is the case only because it'd be pretty uncharacteristic of Toyota to have production delays due to manufacturing screw ups. They pretty much wrote the book on quality manufacturing and lean production after all, and the popularity of the Prius seems to have surprised everybody).

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[Zediker]

On the other hand, they probably have the ability to assemble the machines pretty fast. The problem is that the manufacturing of some components (such as the Cell processor) wouldn't be able to keep pace with the assemblage process, and so it makes sence to wait with assembling until there is a good stockpile of components to be assembled.

Exactly. It can take several weeks to a month or more to turn one silicon wafer into several working computer chips(Fabrication is slow and tedious). I cannot see microchip fabrication able to keep up with the demand of highspeed assembly easily, especialy with their yeild issues. Perhaps after they fix the problem, and the yields come back up, full blown chip production could keep up, but it will take about a month after the fix to see the results.

Re:But you can get a pink (as in ponies) PS2

[apoc06]

"Vast warehousing is so 1980s! (and a sign of inneficient manufacturing)." - THANK YOU!!!!! someone "gets" it!

i am a little late replying to this thread [they can have minds of their own over time], but thanks for doing a better job of explaining how manufacturing truly works these days.

alot of people still think that manufacturing is still done the conveyor belt and warehouse method. nowadays when product runs go well into the millions for a product; each consisting of hundreds of delicate components and elaborate packing, that method just isnt as feasible anymore.

my ex is a senior financial analyst of manufacturing at a pretty large multinational corp, so i have a basic grasp on the true mechanics, but thanks for helping shed some light this.

We've found step 2, guys

[aendeuryu]

1) Decide to produce a game console.
2) Look at every decision Sony has made for the Playstation 3, and do the opposite
3) Profit

Reports?

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite reports to the contrary...

Would those reports to the contrary have anything to do with 1up and SLASHDOT deciding to title a previous story about developer kits being sent out as "PS3 Production 'In Full Swing'"?

Re:Reports?

[aapold]

Indeed... the originally submitted article referenced that slashdot article. I do see it listed under "related" articles.

Re:Reports?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't believe so. I seem to remember just about every game site announcing this a few months ago and I remember a lot of speculation on if Sony was going to be able to meet the numbers they gave us in time for launch. I don't think it was an official announcement though either just a rumor or word from a game publisher or something along those lines. I can't quite remember at this point. I could be wrong though and it might have been because of dev kids, but I seem to remember that being a more recent thing. (which seems odd now that I think about it).

This just in... nerds hate everything.

[GundamFan]

I think the internet has made it impossible for some people to like anything.

Maybe the reason the video game industry is seeing a slow down is that no matter what any company does we bitch about it. The small publishers are too small, the big publisers are to big, the inovative games are too inovative and everything else is not inovative enough... We need to grow up and quit this fanboyism and infighting, we all may have diffrent taste but we all want one thing, qualtiy entertanment.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[squiggleslash]

I'm going to have to disagree. Aside from the name, virtually all the press about the Nintendo Wii has been positive, in nerd circles and outside of them. The PSP got an astounding amount of positive press from geeks and non-geeks, which surprised me for reasons I'll not reprise here. The DS is getting positive press.

Both the PS3 and X-Box 360 aren't getting much love. The X-Box has three problems - it's a tad expensive, it's only an "improved" version of what preceeded it rather than an innovative new design, and it has the word "Microsoft" on the box. The PS3 is getting less love because it seems to be a rather more expensive version of the X-Box 360, with a few ideas pinched, allegedly badly, from the Wii.

In other words, the innovation is being praised, but expensive boxes that don't appear to have any substantial innovation are not.

I don't think it's a matter of nerds will complain about anything. It's more a matter that nerds have little to praise at the moment. But generally, yes, there are still things being found to be "praiseworthy".

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Lave]

no matter what any company does we bitch about it. The small publishers are too small, the big publisers are to big, the inovative games are too inovative and everything else is not inovative enough... We need to grow up and quit this fanboyism and infighting, we all may have diffrent taste but we all want one thing, qualtiy entertanment.

I agree with you - despite not seeing anyone complain about innovative games, or companies being too small. And I'm totally against fanboyism, but then I'm also against Root-kits and the complete arrogance Sony has been showing towards their customers rights. I'm very excited about the PS3 only Assassins Creed, but games are a secondary consideration when it comes to supporting companies with which you have ethical troubles with.

It's not called fanboyism to abandon Yahoo because of the way they have behaved in China, and it's not called fanboyism to abandon Sony because of their stance on DRM and Piracy.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[ciw42]

Yup, you're absolutely right, we want quality entertainment, however what Sony seem to be preparing to offer us is some overpriced, overhyped, problem ridden piece of hardware, which is hedging its bets on at least two seriously risky components - BluRay and Cell - which may well crash and burn, and have to compete with a number of perfectly viable alternatives with major industry backing.

We've got the Xbox360 in our hands, so no risk there. You know what it does and you either want it or you don't.

There's now so much information, so many good reviews, and so much anticipation for the Wii, that in combination with the low price point and guaranteed exclusive titles, mean Nintendo and its potential customers are on very solid ground indeed.

Sony have a lot of problems to overcome right now bringing the PS3 to market, and as far as I can see, they've brought it all upon themselves. Forget fanboyism and infighting, this is out and out ridicule.

Entertainment - yes. Paying good money and still having to cross your fingers and hope that luck is on your side and your new console isn't going to be a major disapointment, that it will have decent games that are in some way better than those released for a console retailing at half the price, and that it won't end up being just a box full of expensive proprietary hardware with no future - no thank you.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Erwos]

I just want to point out that Assassin's Creed has long been rumored to be in parallel development for the 360 as well - and remarks from the developer have more or less confirmed that at this point.

-Erwos

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[orasio]

And since when does nerds opinion matter to Sony Corporation ?
It's a tradition in /. the idea that nobody in RL cares what /. nerds think, if windows is hard to maintain, if ubuntu is a C00l desktop, if apple is good or bad.

Of course, maybe we have some weight in other peoples choices. But I don't think Sony executives care about /. users opinion about their console, I don't picture them crying with hurt feelings, because we say they are stupid trying to sell a game console for 500+ dollars.
And I don't think the failure of PS3 (as in : failure to be as succesful as PS2) will be due to nerds being too harsh on these companies, but because of wrong bussiness decisions.
They are spending lots of money behind yet another braindead Sony proprietary media format, killing their otherwise great console bussiness, I don't think our bitching will be the cause of their failure.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

In that case I presume your also not buying a 360 or Music from anyone else right? Cuz you know Sony did'nt invent DRM nor Piracy (Pro or Against)

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[eln]

You're giving geeks on the Internet way too much credit. No matter what, whenever something new is announced, a portion of the Internet population will go around posting that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and another portion of the population will say it sucks ass and they wouldn't get one even if you paid them to.

News flash: people take extreme positions on the Internet, and argue them into the ground. However, I don't think there's any real evidence that arguing on the Internet actually changes anyone's purchasing habits.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a feeling that both the XBox 360 and PS3 have problems gaining positive press because of their sloppy design; sloppy in the sense that both products lack focus or purpose of design. It has always been my opinion that the best (and often most successful) products are the ones with the greatest focus of design because they do one thing really well rather then a dozen things poorly; the original iPod was like this in that it was an excellent mp3 player with no extra features. After you have established an excellent product then you can add features to improve the value of the product (iPod photo, iPod video, etc.).

Now, the PS3's price is a symptom of this lack of focused design because it's not only a Game Console but it's also a Blu-Ray movie player; the main reason for the Blu-Ray player is to establish a format to strenghten Sony's media devision. Had Sony dropped DVD and Blu-Ray movie playback (as well as SACD and CD playback) on the base system (as Nintendo and Microsoft have done in the past) they could have saved $50 or more on licencing fees alone; had they dumped the hardware they could probably save $200+ on the system.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Mistshadow2k4]

he X-Box has three problems - it's a tad expensive, it's only an "improved" version of what preceeded it rather than an innovative new design, and it has the word "Microsoft" on the box.

You fogot to mention that it lacks the backwards compatibility it was originally supposed to have. That makes its library of games rather small. It may have somewhat better graphics than the PS2, but the PS2 has a ton more games.

And the PS3? Yeah, lots of people are going to be really excited about it up until they see the price tag. By then the Wii is supposed to be out too, and all three consoles will be there together in the stores within a few steps of each other. Sony doesn't seem to realize that for many of the non-geeks they're hoping will buy the PS3, the $600 PS3 is going to be sitting between a $400 console and a $200 console. There will not only be alternatives, but they will be right there. Imagine a street vendor selling his tacos for a $2 while the guy right next to him is selling his for $1.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MikeBabcock]

More importantly 90% of the non hardcore gamers I know don't know anything about the PS3 launch except what I've told them, and most of the people I know who do like gaming never bothered getting an XBox 360 because they didn't believe it would look any better on their normal TV sets (which isn't true, but oh well).

The big question is how well Sony will market the PS3 in the next few months leading up to its pre-Christmas release. I have a feeling they'll do an amazing job (as before) and the average Joes will buy it up quite happily despite what 1% of the population on Slashdot thinks.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[GundamFan]

I agree, "abandoning" Sony because you don't like what they are selling or the way they sell it is perfectly reasonable.

But what I take issue with is that people don't stop at not buying the PS3 they are doing there best to paint it in as negative a light as possible... it's as if Nintendo is paying for this negative press campain.

I would like to be able to look at some of the potental drawbacks of the Wii without getting into an argument on how bad the PS3 is going to suck (I have actualy had this conversation... I brought up a genuine concern about the Wiimote and they proceded to pantomime the use of a PS3 controler to demonstrate that I was foolish... I hadn't mentioned the PS3)

We all need to take a deap breath and look at things objectivly, here are a few parts of my thinking process.

Wii

Pros:
Inexspensive
Inovative game play potental.
Cons:
May have weak 3rd party support.
Games may not make use of the Wiimote.
Bacwards compatability looks like it requires rebuying your old games.
Vurtual Boy, N64.
First party games on the gamecube tend to be low on content or at least repetative.

Xbox 360

Pros:
Out now, has a head start on games.
Xbox live makes multiplayer easier.
Cons:
"exclusive" titles for the Xbox tended to show up on the PS2... the same may happen here.
Hardware is prone to breaking... not a good value.
The stable of games so far seem to be mostly games I would not buy, like the Xbox.
Backwards compatability is severly limited and from what I hear buggy.

PS3

Pros:
Konami support. (I am a huge MGS fan)
Backwards compatability.
Sony has a track record of more 3rd party support than the big N and Microsoft.
Blue Ray... if it is picked up by the industry... though on the other hand who cares what media the games are on?
Cons:
Price, this is kinda a big one but on the other hand... I spend 1500-2000 on a computer for gameing.
DRM... well I don't plan on stealing anything but if it makes my life harder then it's a con.
Blue Ray... if it isn't picked up by the industry much of the value of the system is lost.
Negative press may put a dent in 3rd party support.

The main thing I see people saying is "I want a PS3 but it is too exspensive WHAAA" well they don't say exactly that but that is what I hear.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[andrewman327]

I disagree with your disagreement. Although you are correct in asserting that some things receive mostly positive press, us geeks always find something to deride. Let's look at /. articles about the systems you proclaimed as having virtually all positive press.

The PSP isn't being marketed enough and that pisses off EA. I know this is outdated, but it still counts as criticism: first weekend sales were slow. Back in December, no one cared about the PSP. More recently, people do not seem to know what to do with the PSP.

Wii is a stupid and weird name that is just a marketing gimmick and really is stupid in case you missed the first article. Developers aren't 'getting' the Wii.

On the flipside of your reasoning, let's take a look at the systems that you highlight as receiving bad press:

The XBox360 will have the most market share past the presidential election. The XBox360 is being sold for much less money than it costs to make it so I don't see how you can complain about the price. The XBox360 is also mostly backwards-compatible. The 360 has also redefined the market and what it means to be a console.

The PS3 will dominate market share through the midterm elections after the presidential election (I'm a poli-sci major, I think in terms of U.S. elections). The PS3 is region free for gaming. The PS3 might max out the FPS available on even nice TVs and has amazing NVIDIA graphics and is going to be upgradable. The PS3 is backwards compatible for games and memory cards.

In other words, the innovation is being praised, but expensive boxes that don't appear to have any substantial innovation are not. I don't think it's a matter of nerds will complain about anything. It's more a matter that nerds have little to praise at the moment. But generally, yes, there are still things being found to be "praiseworthy".

For any innovation there will be geeks who praise it and insult it. I will be insulted if I praise Linux or Microsoft, /. or Digg. Granted there are things that are constant sources of criticism (/. mod system, RIAA, SCO, RIAA, BSA, RIAA, RIAA, etc.) but they are the exception rather than the rule.

This concludes the most time and research intesive post I have ever written. If I weren't at work right now I would feel like I had wasted my time.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[drewmg]

You're crazy if you think the average joe is going to spend $600 on a video game system. The PS2's market share comes largely from the dude in a dorm room who saw his friend play Madden and GTA and wanted to do the same. It's not VIDEO GAME fans making up the PS2 market share, it's CASUAL gamers who don't know their Katamari from their Master Sword. And if you think that a college student who barely was able to afford a $250 PS2 3 years ago is going to shell out $600 for a video game system, you're wrong. This will sell well to early adopters (like /. readers) and to Sony fanboys, but the type of consumer that made Sony the market leader won't spend that much money on a video game system.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[jizziknight]

Additions/corrections:

Wii

Pros:
Inexspensive
Inovative game play potental.
Back-catalog of NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, Turbo-Grafix 16 games
Complete backward compatability with GC
Cons:
May have weak 3rd party support. The key word here is MAY. From what I hear, the 3rd party support is looking to be much better than the GC.
Games may not make use of the Wiimote.
Bacwards compatability looks like it requires rebuying your old games. A couple dollars a pop. Big deal.
Vurtual Boy, N64.
First party games on the gamecube tend to be low on content or at least repetative. How is this a con only to the Wii? Most 1st party games, especially with franchises, tend to be repetative. At least the Nintendo ones tend to be consistently entertaining (Zelda, Metriod, Mario, SSB)

Xbox 360

Pros:
Out now, has a head start on games.
Xbox live makes multiplayer easier.
Good controller design. Well, at least better than the old Xbox and DualShock/Shake
Cons:
"exclusive" titles for the Xbox tended to show up on the PS2 and/or GC ... the same may happen here.
Hardware is prone to breaking... not a good value.
The stable of games so far seem to be mostly games I would not buy, like the Xbox. Since when is a personal preference a con? Just because you don't like the games doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. Which is not to say it's not true, just that it's not a valid con when phrased that way. Perhaps "The stable of games so far seem to be mostly games the general gaming crowd would not buy, like the Xbox" would be better, but you'd still need to back this up somehow, since you do not solely speak for the general gaming crowd.
Backwards compatability is severly limited and from what I hear buggy.

PS3

Pros:
Konami support. (I am a huge MGS fan) So save your money and wait a couple years until it comes out on the Wii. If the PS3 bombs, which isn't altogether unlikely, this will most assuredly happen
Backwards compatability. Do you actually expect this to work properly? IIRC the PS2 wasn't totally backward compatible with the PS1; do you think the PS3 will be any different (not just with the PS1, but with the PS2 as well, and probably compounding issues with the PS1)? Let's also not forget the lack of memory card ports, so have fun purchasing that dongle and moving all your game saves over.
Sony has a track record of more 3rd party support than the big N and Microsoft. Yes, the PS2 has a crapload of games. How many of them are actually any fun? Not shitty clones? Worth paying for?
Blue Ray... if it is picked up by the industry... though on the other hand who cares what media the games are on?
Cons:
Price, this is kinda a big one but on the other hand... I spend 1500-2000 on a computer for gameing. Your computer probably also serves a lot of other purposes as well (word processing, email, internet, etc.) and is upgradeable to a point. The PS3, on the other hand, will play games and (maybe) movies. The PC is clearly worth the price tag.
DRM... well I don't plan on stealing anything but if it makes my life harder then it's a con. The other ones have some sort of DRM, too. It's just not in the press as much and they don't have that pesky Root-kit fiasco in their past.
Blue Ray... if it isn't picked up by the industry much of the value of the system is lost.
Negative press may put a dent in 3rd party support.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Damvan]

"then I'm also against Root-kits and the complete arrogance Sony has been showing towards their customers rights."

This is the exact reason, along with being suckered by the PSP and Sony's arrogance towards their customers in general, that myself, and most if not all of my gaming friends (professionals in early 30's, plenty of disposable income) are not buying a PS3, or any further Sony products in general.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[trdrstv]

Vurtual Boy, N64. ??

I don't understand what you are stating as a Con.

Wii - also has 'Free online multiplayer' as a Pro,

as Well as 'Konami Support' lest we forget about Snake being in Smash Bros.

I would also put 'Strong Launch line up' in that category too, and

Hardware based B/C for Gamecube games (including full controller and memory card support without additional purchase).

X-Box 360 - It does graphics 'as well as' the PS3, but you can buy it now, for less money.

If you buy the Core system you can upgrade any components you want that are missing.

You can buy an HD-DVD add on, but not be forced into buying one you don't want.

PS3 - Cons - Weak launch line up. Yes, I'm interested in Final Fantasy XIII and Metal Gear Solid 4. Unfortunately those games are coming out in 2007, so there is no incentive for me to be an early adopter.

$499 version is not upgradeable.

Blue-Ray is a neutral one. It is not a value added feature to me, but I would have to buy it anyway, To you it may be.

"Exclusive" PS3 titles showing up on 360 as higher development costs nesessitate.

Reliability. I know you put the 360 down for breaking easy, but I expect the Sony PS3 to have a similarly high failure rate for the first 2 generations of their shipments as their PS1, and PS2 history has shown.

Lack of Rumble.

Backwords compatibility? - Remains to be seen. The rumor of them including the PS2 chip in each unit was proven false, so they are likely doing emulation, just like the 360 so we'll see how that turns out.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[GundamFan]

Since when is a personal preference a con? Just because you don't like the games doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. Which is not to say it's not true, just that it's not a valid con when phrased that way. Perhaps "The stable of games so far seem to be mostly games the general gaming crowd would not buy, like the Xbox" would be better, but you'd still need to back this up somehow, since you do not solely speak for the general gaming crowd.

I only speak for myself... and I am not interested in many of the games on the 360, these are my pros and cons... not yours or anyone elses.

Do you actually expect this to work properly? IIRC the PS2 wasn't totally backward compatible with the PS1; do you think the PS3 will be any different (not just with the PS1, but with the PS2 as well, and probably compounding issues with the PS1)? Let's also not forget the lack of memory card ports, so have fun purchasing that dongle and moving all your game saves over.

That's a good point... I didn't think of it that way but it still has to be better than the way the Xbox 360 does it.

Yes, the PS2 has a crapload of games. How many of them are actually any fun? Not shitty clones? Worth paying for?

More games means more good games as well as bad, also what appeals to you or I may not appeal to someone else and games sold (good or "bad") means dollars reinvested in new development.

Time will tell which system (if any) I buy... The games, not the console or the company, in the end will be what motivates me to spend money. (MGS4 is tempting... but I can wait for things to settle a bit.)

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[poot_rootbeer]

The XBox360 is being sold for much less money than it costs to make it so I don't see how you can complain about the price.

You don't? Like this: "Three to four hundred dollars is more than I'm willing to pay for a videogame console, regardless of how much it cost them to manufacture it."

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[AlastairMurray]

I think the internet has made it impossible for some people to like anything.

I don't like that notion.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Traiklin]

I was with you untill this point

They are spending lots of money behind yet another braindead Sony proprietary media format

this argument comes up EVERY TIME Blu-Ray is mentioned, it is NOT a Sony Proprietary media format, unless Sony secretly bought 136 companies without anyone knowning, Sony is NOT the only company that can make Blu-Ray discs, Sony is NOT the only company that can make blu-ray drives, Sony is NOT the only company you can buy Blu-Ray discs from, so how is it a Sony Proprietary Media Format?

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MBCook]

The XBox360 is being sold for much less money than it costs to make it so I don't see how you can complain about the price.

The PS3 will sell for $600, but some analysts have placed it's costs at $900-$1000 per unit. That means they are selling it at a $300-$400 discount.

That doesn't make $600 cost any less.

XBox 360 + Wii + games Good luck Sony, you're gonna need it.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Masami Eiri]

Wii

Pros:
Inexspensive
Inovative game play potental.
Cons:
May have weak 3rd party support.
Huh? I don't have the link right now, but IIRC, Nintendo said there's a number of 3rd parties interested, including EA.
Games may not make use of the Wiimote.
So? The Wiimote is cool, but look at the DS. The touchscreen isn't overly utilized in most games.
Bacwards compatability looks like it requires rebuying your old games.
OK, have to agree here, except on the Gamecube ones. Those play directly off the disc. Plus, if you have the old games... why rebuy them, unless your system is broken.
Vurtual Boy, N64.
First, N64 may not have been a ZOMG huge success, but it wasn't a failure. 2nd, its too early to call this.
First party games on the gamecube tend to be low on content or at least repetative.
Have you ever played a game for the GC by Nintendo?

Xbox 360

Pros:
Out now, has a head start on games.
Xbox live makes multiplayer easier.
Cons:
"exclusive" titles for the Xbox tended to show up on the PS2... the same may happen here.
Name one. Typically, it was the other way around.
Hardware is prone to breaking... not a good value.
The stable of games so far seem to be mostly games I would not buy, like the Xbox.
Backwards compatability is severly limited and from what I hear buggy.
Can't really argue the other points... The one about limited games is a matter of perspective though.

PS3

Pros:
Konami support. (I am a huge MGS fan)
Backwards compatability.
Sony has a track record of more 3rd party support than the big N and Microsoft.
Blue Ray... if it is picked up by the industry... though on the other hand who cares what media the games are on?
Cons:
Price, this is kinda a big one but on the other hand... I spend 1500-2000 on a computer for gameing.
A normal computer can do so much more though, so that's only half-relevant.
DRM... well I don't plan on stealing anything but if it makes my life harder then it's a con.
Aside from copy-protection on the games (which, IMO, is acceptable for a console), has there been any other confirmed DRM? There's been rumors, yes, but confirmations, I don't recall.
Blue Ray... if it isn't picked up by the industry much of the value of the system is lost.
Negative press may put a dent in 3rd party support.
Agreed.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MBCook]

XBox 360 + Wii + games Good luck Sony, you're gonna need it.

Sorry, I forgot I can't use greater than or less than signs without escaping them. That should have read:

XBox 360 + Wii + games <= $600

Good luck Sony, you're gonna need it.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a good point... I didn't think of it that way but it still has to be better than the way the Xbox 360 does it.

Why do you assume, because it's Sony, that it has to be better than the microsoft way of doing the emulation? That's like saying that just because a car is from Japan that it must be better than the rest, or that car is American and it must be a heap of crap. Well, you get the idea.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[GundamFan]

as Well as 'Konami Support' lest we forget about Snake being in Smash Bros.

I haven't forgoten... but having there mascot charecter in a brawler is not the same as Konami putting a MGS4 port on the console. It isn't about playing as snake... it's about playing a Metal Gear game for me.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Wdomburg]

Games may not make use of the Wiimote.

Games for the PS3 may not make use of the tilt features in their controller either. Or may have used rumble if Sony hadn't dropped that feature.

Bacwards compatability looks like it requires rebuying your old games.

There should be 100% backwards compatibility to the Gamecube, so this only applies to the earlier cartridge based systems and games for other consoles.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[jizziknight]

That's a good point... I didn't think of it that way but it still has to be better than the way the Xbox 360 does it.

So... what exactly makes you think it will be better than the way the 360 does it? It's not like Sony exactly has a good track record when it comes to that sort of thing.

More games means more good games as well as bad, also what appeals to you or I may not appeal to someone else and games sold (good or "bad") means dollars reinvested in new development.

That's what you would expect to happen, and it may, but somehow I doubt it. While those dollars might get reinvested in new development, if the dollars came from a shitty game, that just reinforces the development house's perception that their shitty games sell, and they will continue to make shitty games. Also, because of the popularity of the PS2, everyone and their mom feels they can produce a best-selling game on it. I'm all for indie devs, but not when they shit out a clone just because they can. I'm betting that if we look at the ration of good to bad games for the GC, XBox, and PS2, the PS2 fails miserably.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Sparr0]

bbbbbut the $2 tacos are SO MUCH PRETTIER!

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Sparr0]

Because, if the PS3 succeeds, Sony will be the supplier of something like 99% of the Blu-Ray players in consumer's hands. Which it won't, of course.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Babbster]

The $2 tacos also have HDMI interfaces. I'll only consume tacos in fully digital form...analog is so over.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[trdrstv]

Sure, but even though MGS4 hasn't been announced for any other platform (though I suspect it will be) Konami is supporting the Wii, (in fact Konami supports all the consoles) so I guess it's just a matter of semantics. To Me Konami is much more than MGS.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Burlap]

how is the Virtual Boy and N64 a con? cause they bombed? couldnt you also say that learning from those mistakes makes them a pro?

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[GundamFan]

True... very true... I guess we will see what happens.

I won't decide what (if any) console to buy untill I can compare the games and games I want to play are on the market.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[GundamFan]

Nintendo seems to have the attitude that they know how to make games and consoles without any real input from the consumer... most of the time they are right but sometimes they lay a big fat brick on the market. Big N has been doing well lately and I hope it continues (they are the only ones who seem to care about younger gamers plus compitition is good). IF the Wiimote is hard to use or just not very widely used (wouldn't it suck to have to buy a normal controller to play 90% of your games fully) and if the Wii just doesn't bring much to the table in the way of value and inovation I could easly see it being a sleepy little system that will turn a profit but little else.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MemoryDragon]

Actually no, it wont happen, the reason is, it simply is too expensive, for a console the xbox360 is at the upper limit of what people would spend on a console and for blue ray, the hdtv adoption still is not widespread enough and there is a huge lack of content. There will be a huge christmas fiasco for Sony.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MemoryDragon]

Actually, the Wii lineup is pretty strong lets face it: Wii at start time has about 10-30 must have titles, depending on your taste, some of them pretty innovative, some of them more on the classical side. XBOX360 at this time around 5-10 must have titles if at all. PS3 I cannot see any title which justifies to plunk down 700 Dollars/Euros... (probably euros as well because companies try to swallow the difference if it feeds their earnings)

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it somehow surprising that nothing is perfect, and there will always be someone willing to complain about some fault in everything?

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[trdrstv]

Yeah, for me there is a 'rule of 5'. I need to have at least 5 games I want to buy for me to consider a system.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[DrEldarion]

XBox 360 + Wii + games Good luck Sony, you're gonna need it.

Yeah, except that falls short when the PS3 has more games I want to play. Initial cost of the consoles is not everything! I don't care if I can get a Wii for half the price if the games I'm looking forward to most are on the PS3 and 360.

It seems like Sony is going to remain the route for normal Japanese-style RPGs (Final Fantasy, etc). This pretty much guarantees success in Japan, and likely here as well.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[DrEldarion]

The problem comes when the $1 tacos have meat and lettuce, the $1.50 tacos have meat, cheese, and lettuce, and the $2 tacos have the whole range. Sure, some people might not need the extra toppings, but a lot of people want them and are willing to pay for them.

Also, I find it hilarious that everyone conveniently forgets that there's a $500 PS3 that will be perfectly fine for 95% of people who want one.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Don853]

You forgot the "fanboy" tags for your post.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[DrEldarion]

Are you kidding? If a kid wants something for Christmas, parents will KILL to get that for them. Remember the Cabbage Patch Kids fiasco? Furbies? Tickle-me Elmo? People were FIGHTING IN THE AISLES for these things. Tickle-me Elmos were selling for hundreds of dollars. And to pre-empt the inevitable "but when the 360 and Wii are cheaper and right there, parents will just get those instead..." talk, there were plenty of other dolls and stuffed animals available, but when your kid wants a Cabbage Patch Kid, they're not going to be happy with a Little Lulu instead. Kids are brats.

That, combined with the huge rush that all recent console releases have expeienced (and the subsequent 200% price-gouging on ebay), will all but guarantee a sell-out. I'd be willing to put money on it.

The real question is how it'll do after the holidays, and after the initial rush. That's when price ACTUALLY comes into play, but Sony has other things helping them along there (most notably some nice exclusives). We'll see.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[drewmg]

It seems to me that Sony has largely been successful because it markets to an audience that doesn't need its parents to buy their toys for them.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[poot_rootbeer]

Also, I find it hilarious that everyone conveniently forgets that there's a $500 PS3 that will be perfectly fine for 95% of people who want one.

I find it hilarious that the "budget" PS3 model is still at LEAST twice as expensive as Nintendo's next console is expected to be. That's still not cheap, guys. It's still not, for many people, "affordable".

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[jizziknight]

ZOMGWTFBBQ SOMEONE FAVORS ONE CONSOLE OVER THE OTHER THEY MUST BE A FANBOY!!!11one Christ, get over yourself. Perhaps you should note the objectivism in my post. Fanboy posts lack any sort of objectivism.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[poot_rootbeer]

Nintendo seems to have the attitude that they know how to make games and consoles without any real input from the consumer...

Are Sony and Microsoft any better at getting "input from the consumer"? I don't think Joe Playstation who plays mostly GTA and Madden was clamoring for a Blu-Ray drive.

Guess what happens when you base your strategy on what the consumer thinks he wants. You get an Atari Lynx that's so large that it barely fits the definition of "portable"--because some dumbass focus group indicated that they felt a bigger case meant a better value.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Don853]

True, true. I especially noticed your objective analysis that when Nintendo charges for backwards compatability, it's only A couple dollars a pop. Big deal., but when Sony has [free / $500] backwards compatibility that has a history of working better than any other console company's, we should expect it to not work properly.

I also noticed that 1st party Nintendo games tend to be consistently entertaining while PS2 games were mostly shitty clones that weren't worth paying for. You stated that you think it is likely for the PS3 to fail, which at this point is still speculation.

This statement: The PS3, on the other hand, will play games and (maybe) movies. is asanine. We have no reason to believe that the PS3 will only maybe play movies.
And whatever your opinion is of Sony's rootkit fiasco, it doesn't seem to have much to do with a console.

For the record, I'm unlikely to buy either of the systems, but that doesn't stop me from being irritated with people who let such an obvious bias show through while trying to pass it off as objective.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[BeoFebenna]

I hate your post. It's stupid.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[jizziknight]

Sony has [free / $500] backwards compatibility that has a history of working better than any other console company's, we should expect it to not work properly.

HA! I laugh at your incompetence. Have we forgotten the backward compatibility of the GameBoy line? Yes, I realise it's another Nintendo system. CLEARLY I'M A FANBOY!

I also noticed that 1st party Nintendo games tend to be consistently entertaining while PS2 games were mostly shitty clones that weren't worth paying for. You stated that you think it is likely for the PS3 to fail, which at this point is still speculation.

First, I said, "If the PS3 bombs, which isn't altogether unlikely, this will most assuredly happen." That's hardly saying the PS3 is likely to fail, just that it's a possibility. Yes, nitpicking, but if you're going to reference it, get it right. Second, I was talking about third party games on the PS2 being shitty, not first party ones. Third, first party Nintendo games DO tend to be consistently entertaining. Sony/Microsoft ones seem hit or miss to me at times.

We have no reason to believe that the PS3 will only maybe play movies.

What about the abundance of failed DVD drives on the PS2?

And whatever your opinion is of Sony's rootkit fiasco, it doesn't seem to have much to do with a console.

No direct consequence, yes. However it does ruin some of their consumer confidence, which can lead to people turning away from the Sony brand.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Phisbut]

rue, true. I especially noticed your objective analysis that when Nintendo charges for backwards compatability, it's only A couple dollars a pop. Big deal., but when Sony has [free / $500] backwards compatibility that has a history of working better than any other console company's, we should expect it to not work properly.

Last I checked, the Wii is supposed to let you put a GC disc right in and play. That's backward compatibility (if it works), and I don't see how it would cost me "only a couple dollars"... Put the disk in, play the game, all for free. If you're complaining about the lack of a slot to put your SNES cartridge, then it's another thing, and I don't think Nintendo mentionned that it would be possible to do so.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Don853]

HA! I laugh at your incompetence. Have we forgotten the backward compatibility of the GameBoy line?
Yes, the GameBoy line was backward compatable - up until the DS, at which point they dropped backwards compatability with anything from before the GBA. Either way, this doesn't refute the fact that the PS2 was backwards compatable with almost every PS1 game, and that seems like the best indicator of the PS3 situation.

first party Nintendo games DO tend to be consistently entertaining.
This is a matter of opinion. I gave Mario Golf about two hours total, which was more than Mario Tennis, Mario Baseball, and the entire Mario Party line got combined. Mario Sunshine is a good game, and the Zelda series has always been great. SSMB and Mario Kart are great multiplayer, but the single player is repetitive and boring. I haven't played Metroid, but it's $7 now so it might be worth a look. Animal Crossing? Please. So in my opinion, Nintendo has its fair share of misses too. But I digress.

What about the abundance of failed DVD drives on the PS2?
So the PS3 might not play movies because of hardware failure? If my toaster breaks, it won't toast bread, either. That's why you get a warranty. I couldn't find numbers as to how abundant the disk drive failure was, though it did generate a class action lawsuit.

No direct consequence, yes. However it does ruin some of their consumer confidence, which can lead to people turning away from the Sony brand.
I doubt Joe Blow who makes up most of the US consumer base knows what a rootkit is. I don't know enough about Japanese or European markets to say much beyond the PS3 and Wii will probably both blow the Xbox 360 out of the water in Japan.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MemoryDragon]

Actually parents also have to look at the price and while the ps1 and ps2 were affordable for most parents the ps3 simply is not anymore... Given that a wii with lots of kid friendly games will be around 150-250 dollars and xbox 360 is in the league of 300 dollars around chrismas, and the ps3 with almost no content and certainly no kids friendly content is priced around 700 you can imagine who will get the money... Sorry but you are way off, yes there will be an initial rush by the usual (idots) ahem early adopters crowd, but after that Sony has a problem on their hands.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you're an idiot. The Wii will not be $150. Microsoft has said they're not planning on a price drop, so any $300 system will be the one sans hard drive (which kills some of the best functionality). The PS3 is $500, not $700, and is also a nice little present for the rest of the family (high-definition movie player).

Are you really that fucking dumb? God damn fanboys. Get over it, the PS3 will be successful and you're going to look like a fool.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

has amazing NVIDIA graphics

Not as amazing at the Xbox 360's ATI graphics, but still amazing.

and is going to be upgradable

That's widely considered to be a negative.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

We need to grow up and quit this fanboyism and infighting, we all may have diffrent taste but we all want one thing, qualtiy entertanment.

For a lot of us, fanboys arguing IS quality entertainment.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[jizziknight]

As for the failed drives on the PS2, IIRC there were a number that simply failed to play DVDs. Most games played fine, but stick a DVD in there, and you got nothing. How does that relate to the PS3? Well, DVD was fairly new tech when the PS2 first came out, and they had quite a few problems getting it to work consistently. Seeing that Sony was originally a hardware company, this should not have been an issue, especially since working DVD drives were already in production. As for the PS3, Blu-ray is brand new tech (granted Sony developed it) and with the track record they have with the PS2, it's reasonable that similar problems will occur with the PS3.

As for the rootkit, it doesn't matter if Joe Blow knows what a rootkit is. It was in the news, there was a class-action lawsuit, and if Joe Blow happened to be one of the people who got their computer screwed up, he'll know enough to know that Sony decided to rape its customers.

The point of the GameBoy thing was just to refute your statement that the PS2 was the only system to provide backward compatibility. And that the GameBoy line did it flawlessly, whereas the PS2 did not. Thus making it reasonable to assume that the Wii will have near perfect backwards compatibility (and in hardware, rather than software) and that the PS3 will most likely have some issues.

As for the Nintendo games, Mario, Zelda, and Metroid have been around since the NES, and they still manage to be some of the best selling games. Let's also not forget that the FF and MGS franchises were originally on Nintendo platforms. When a Sony or Microsoft series has been around that long, then I'll say they have solid franchises. But not until then.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[geminidomino]

Also, I find it hilarious that everyone conveniently forgets that there's a $500 PS3 that will be perfectly fine for 95% of people who want one.

I doubt anyone's forgotten that the crippled tard-box is STILL $100 more expensive than the full 360, and, as sibling mentioned, at least 2x what the wii will cost.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MemoryDragon]

150-250 dollars, the exact price is not defined yet but Nintendo stated that it will not be more than 250 dollars. Secondly, 500-700 Dollars for a high definition player with almost no hd content is a lot to ask for, especially for one with almost no new games, almost no hdtv content, and add to that that a lot of families simply do not have HDTV... Go figure who the fanboy is. I dont care for Nintendo, I dont care for Sony, but I can see stupity and arrogance when it comes combined... Add to that that families usually are on a tight bugdet because there is a lot more to spend on than games, the kids need food clothing, housing you name it, the only adopters Sony surely can count on are the single Sony fanboys, but you cannot find them among families you probably will find them among the 30+ male demographic.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[geminidomino]

Are you really that fucking dumb? God damn fanboys. Get over it, the PS3 will be successful and you're going to look like a fool.

Pretty Ironic, considering the cherry-picking of facts. If you're going to correct him on the 360 price being for the tard-box instead of the full, you should probably point out that the PS3 is not $500, it's $600, especially if you want it to be an HD movie player.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Aceticon]

When it comes to news (even for nerds), problems, criticism and outrageous statements sell.

When was the last time you saw a news item like "Old lady crosses dangerous neighbourhood at night and gets home safe"?
Mostly you get the "Innocent bystander shot in gang driveby shooting" type of article

Yet (and keeping with the example) you somehow deduced that everybody that crosses a dangerous neighbourhood ends up dead.

Many articles in /. tend to be stated as issues and/or criticisms while just about no article (at least not about hardware)
is of the "thing X is the best Y ever" kind.

You seem to believe that this is a pattern in the way "nerds" think and yet it's way much more likelly that this is just the usual pattern in the way news (for nerds or not) are presented.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for the fact that, while the low-end 360 is indeed a "tard-box" (I love the terminology), the low-end PS3 is just scaled down a bit - it retains all the functionality. It's just a smaller hard drive, no memory stick reader, and no HDMI. For a lot of people, this will do just fine.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[tepples]

but when Sony has [free / $500] backwards compatibility that has a history of working better than any other console company's, we should expect it to not work properly.

The Super NES can play Super NES Game Paks and (with an accessory) Game Boy Game Paks. The GameCube can play GameCube discs; with an accessory it can also play Game Boy Game Paks, Game Boy Color Game Paks, and Game Boy Advance Game Paks. The DS can play DS Game Cards and Game Boy Advance Game Paks. Where's the PS1 backward compatibility on the PSP, even through an accessory that resembles one of Sony's other products?

And whatever your opinion is of Sony's rootkit fiasco, it doesn't seem to have much to do with a console.

PlayStation is widely thought to be the most profitable division of Sony Corporation, and I'd imagine that Sony Corporation routes PlayStation earnings to prop up its less successful divisions. I don't want to buy a PlayStation and have it fund the development of Rootkit 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[geminidomino]

Except for the fact that, while the low-end 360 is indeed a "tard-box" (I love the terminology), the low-end PS3 is just scaled down a bit - it retains all the functionality. It's just a smaller hard drive, no memory stick reader, and no HDMI. For a lot of people, this will do just fine.

HAHAHHAHAHHAAAHAHAHAHA!!! Stop stop, I can't take anymore.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MikeBabcock]

The same guys who blow $200 on beer in a night on a binge? Casual gamers (especially guys) with disposable income will buy the PS3, just like they buy $15k cars and spend $5k more modifying them. People without disposable income aren't in the market segment for these systems; and that's why Sony in its wisdom still supports the PSONE and will continue to support the PS2.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MikeBabcock]

Because of course, you did all kinds of research on the subject before opening your keyboard tray right? Go ask a retailer how much people will be willing to spend.

Its Christmas -- people spend phenomenal amounts of money on crazy things.

Don't forget, consoles are seen by parents as one of those long-term investment type purchases unlike cars and PCs, they don't usually need replacing or repair every few months and are cheaper than both. These will go like hotcakes.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[drewmg]

Wow, congratulations on pigeon-holing every single male college student who enjoys video games as an alcoholic and financially irresponsible. I'd say the vast majority are otherwise, and these are the ones who will not simply shrug their shoulders at a $400 price hike in their casual hobby.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MikeBabcock]

Didn't do so well in the debating class did ya?

I'm sure most literate people had no problem understanding my point. Thanks for the knee-jerk response though.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[drewmg]

Your point is that the type of consumer I'm saying makes up most of Sony's market share will not care about a $350 price hike, because they don't care how much money their toys cost. I disagree. These are poor college students, to whom there is a world of difference between $250 and $599. How else can your point be interpreted? I think that the group that I'm talking about is less inclined to spend an extra $350 on something that is only a casual hobby to begin with, and that THIS group is what is the difference between an Xbox marketshare and a PS2 marketshare.

If I'm not interpreting your comment about "15k + 5k" cars right, please by all means correct me.

I'll repeat my point again, in case maybe I didn't state it right before:

The difference between the Xbox marketshare and the PS2 marketshare is mostly college guys who live in a frat house or a dorm who saw their friends PS2 and decided they wanted to play Madden too. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked at all if a good 10-15% of all PS2 owners ONLY had versions of Madden and GTA in their game library. These are NOT the kind of consumers who care enough about video games to spend $600 on a video game console.

It has nothing to do with "high school debate class" but certainly taking a jab at me makes your point far superior.

Re:This just in... nerds hate everything.

[MikeBabcock]

The difference between the Xbox marketshare and the PS2 marketshare is mostly college guys who live in a frat house or a dorm who saw their friends PS2 and decided they wanted to play Madden too. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked at all if a good 10-15% of all PS2 owners ONLY had versions of Madden and GTA in their game library. These are NOT the kind of consumers who care enough about video games to spend $600 on a video game console.

Although selling large numbers of PS2s is briefly good for Sony's PR campaign to other game makers (we have x million installed users ... ), those who only purchase two games are not in the target market for console game unit sales. Most console units have been sold as loss leaders and the profit comes from those game licenses Sony (or Microsoft, etc.) sells to game publishers, or the games they sell themselves. Nintendo is a notable exception; every console unit they sell has supposedly been a profit maker from day-1.

That said, selling the PS3 at $500 or so will probably cost Sony a lot of money on the assumption that those purchasors buy lots of games in the future. That assumption may in fact be more true with a high-priced console since it means only those who really can afford lots of games are buying initial releases of the console unit. In a few months/years, the PS3 will be quite affordable and "everyone else" will buy one.

For now, just buy Madden for the PS2 and a PS2 for $125. I bought mine once it was $199 canadian and not before. I'll probably wait until the PS3 is under $300 personally before buying one, and be buying God of War 2 for the PS2 long after the PS3's been released.

Didn't they learn from the PSP?

[abigsmurf]

Having a shortage of consoles can drive up sales...

If there are no products that compete with it. If people can't get a console, they'll possibly look to another console such as the cheaper 360 or (potentially) bargain Wii. Sony have received enough bad press over the PS3 in regards to price (especially in the UK where we get especially ripped off), copycat features and lowered tech specs.

The PSP shortages hurt Sony as lots of people bought the cheaper DS instead and as a result the PSP didn't get that vital early userbase.

Re:Didn't they learn from the PSP?

[masklinn]

The PSP shortages hurt Sony as lots of people bought the cheaper DS instead and as a result the PSP didn't get that vital early userbase.

Me thinks the shortage of non-ports-of-PS2-games didn't help either...

Re:Didn't they learn from the PSP?

[MBCook]

Me thinks the relative shortages of ANY games didn't help, especially good games (of which there have been few).

Re:Didn't they learn from the PSP?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we're talking about different regions, but IIRC the Sony PSP didn't have shortages when it was initially released. In North America (I believe) that Sony launched with 1,000,000 units and sold just over 400,000; at the same time there were a couple PSP's selling on eBay for about $1,000 (mostly assumed to be a marketing ploy by Sony). The problems with the PSP (that prevented people from buying it) were that the screen was beautiful and high-definition (as compared to the GBA/Nintendo DS) but there were too many dead pixels and Sony wasn't replacing systems because of it, UMD was great but was far too expensive for what you were getting, the games were too expensive, there were too many ports of Playstation and PS2 games, there were too few simple fun games (that were typical of a portable system), and the system was just too expensive.

The PS3 may have a lot of similar problems, for example:

-1080p is nice but most TVs can't take advantage of it; many people (over the past 5 years) have bought EDTVs (480p) thinking they're HDTVs, of those that actually bought HDTVs most of them are 720p or 1080i TVs, very few people (probably in th 1%-5% range of people who bout TVs in the past 5 years) own a 1080p TV.

-Blu-Ray is nice, but it is too expensive (movies will start out in the $30 range), doesn't have much selection, and no one is sure that it will become the next format.

-Games are too expensive; they will be in the same range as the XBox 360 games ($60) with (probably) a $10-$15 priemium for games published on Blu-Ray

-Smaller developers (the bread and butter of the Playstation brand) have been discouraged (both by their publishers and Sony) from producing PS3 games; the argument is that these developers will not be able to produce games at the "graphical quality" people expect from PS3 games.

Re:Didn't they learn from the PSP?

[tepples]

Maybe we're talking about different regions, but IIRC the Sony PSP didn't have shortages when it was initially released.

Maybe the PSP didn't, but Sony's last console, the PS2, had a console shortage and then a memory card shortage.

Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing to see here - as usual.

Sony has been manufacturing the PS3 components for some time now, but they haven't begun assembling those components into final retail units yet. These daily anti-Sony Zonk tirades are like the people who still try to make BSOD jokes here on Slashdot - they end up doing more harm than good for the person making them.

Zonk, give it a rest. You're accomplishing nothing other than making yourself look ridiculous.

Re:Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[Daetrin]

Zonk, give it a rest. You're accomplishing nothing other than making yourself look ridiculous.

Are you suffering from the misapprehension that Zonk is somehow making these stories up out of wholecloth? A lot of negative Sony articles are getting posted, but i suspect that's because a lot of negative Sony articles are being submitted. Zonk also posted the article about the marketing study saying "PS3 Predicted to Lead Market Through 2011." Note that no one congratulated Zonk for overcoming his anti-sony "bias," or argued how this study proved that all the other articles Zonk posted were wrong. Instead everyone criticized the study as being unrealistic and uninformed. Right or wrong the majority of the vocal slashdot crowd seems to have it in for Sony, and these are probably the same people sending in articles.

I think the ones constantly railing against Zonk's "tirades" and "favortisim" are the ones who are looking more and more ridiculous at this point.

Re:Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[Anonymous Coward]

Zonk also posted the article about the marketing study saying "PS3 Predicted to Lead Market Through 2011." Note that no one congratulated Zonk for overcoming his anti-sony "bias," or argued how this study proved that all the other articles Zonk posted were wrong.

Maybe this is because you didn't look at what the story said properly? The real story wasn't 'sony to lead the market' the story was how close the xbox 360 is supposed to be to leading the market at that time.
This is apposed to how it is a dead last place at the moment. Nothing kills a console faster than the thought that another console will be a stand out market leader and hence get all the best games released for it. The key for M$ and it's whores like Zonk is to be subtle

Re:Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[AcidLacedPenguiN]

forget the tinfoil hat, we need to get you into a tinfoil room FAST!

Re:Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. Zonk could post a story about humans needing oxygen to survive and at least twenty people would immediately post about how Zonk is crazy and should just admit he is an oxygen fanatic.

Re:Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[Hope Thelps]

Are you suffering from the misapprehension that Zonk is somehow making these stories up out of wholecloth? A lot of negative Sony articles are getting posted, but i suspect that's because a lot of negative Sony articles are being submitted.

I expect there are plenty of negative stories out there but this isn't a story at all.

Zonk contrasts a genuine statement from Sony that they haven't started producing PS3s yet with a statement by Zonk himself in a previous Slashdot summary where he referred to "Phil Harrison, saying that the PS3 is in full production mode". But the linked interview didn't back that up - he talked about dev kits being delivered.

There seems to be some sort of desperate implication that Sony are leaving things too late. Maybe they really are, but nothing is provided to support that. The Sony guy sounds relaxed enough about the schedule. There's no link to anyone with knowledge of the manufacturing process suggesting that they're likely to have problems. There's no link to previous console production schedules showing this one to be unusual.

Have you read the comments? Again, no actual explanation but an almost universal condemnation of Sony's action. Whatever it was. My favourite is the one, modded up, claiming that this "news about them tops the previous news" and congratulates them for their "incompetance" (sic). Okay, cheap spelling flame, but seriously WHAT NEWS?

Honestly, remind us how much you hate rootkits. I agree. Point out if you feel you have to that the PS3 is still planned to be expensive. Yes, sure, no change since yesterday. But pretending there's a story here is absurd. This whole thing is bizarre. There is no story.

Re:Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[heinousjay]

Dead last place is one way to sum up the current market position of the 360. Leading in first is another. Since it's the only console in it's market at this point, both labels are equally meaningless. Your usage exposes you for the troll you are.

Re:Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, Sony just released the (supposedly) final DEVELOPMENT consoles yesterday - check Google for news/pics if you dont believe me. That means they are a loooong way away from making the actual console. You don't develop the dev console and the release console concurrently. There is no way there is going to be a final retail console available in 3 months.

Re:Another Non-Story - Zonk FUD Story

[Pluvius]

Zonk also posted the article about the marketing study saying "PS3 Predicted to Lead Market Through 2011." Note that no one congratulated Zonk for overcoming his anti-sony "bias," or argued how this study proved that all the other articles Zonk posted were wrong.

Yeah, why wouldn't we congratulate Zonk for posting a stupid, unrealistic, pro-Microsoft article just so he could say "see, I'm not always anti-Sony"? Duh.

Rob

This Just In...

[Belgarion89]

DNF announced as launch title for PS3!

Translation

[neonprimetime]

GS: Speaking of dates, its three months to the day from now that you guys are going to launch. - translated to : you guys are so screwed, you're never going to get ps3 released!
KH: Correct. Yes. - translated to : shut up, so we screwed up a few times, leave me alone!
GS: How are things looking there? - translated to : so is there any chance Sony can still profit from ps3?
KH: Everything's pretty much on track. - translated to : if I owned Sony i'd just scrap the whole project right now and begin working on PS4.

Re:Translation

[poot_rootbeer]

if I owned Sony i'd just scrap the whole project right now and begin working on PS4.

Hey, it worked so well when Atari scrapped the Panther project to focus on Jaguar, and when Sega abandoned 32X to focus on Saturn...

Re:Translation

[NeMon'ess]

The Panther was even less powerful than the Jaguar. Focusing on the Jag was the right way to go.

The 32X never should have been released. In fact, that comparison works. There's a semi-reasonable argument that Sony should scrap the PS3 and ride the PS2 for a few years. Just like Sega should have scrapped the 32X and coasted on the Sega CD/Genesis combo for a year until the Saturn came out.

Wow...

[Schezar]

I've been following the "Jack Thompson Rule" when it comes to covering/reporting on/commenting on Sony in the past several months. Essentially Sony, like Jack Thompson, must be ignored unless the most recent news about them tops the previous news. For example:

Jack says something stupid: write a comment
Jack says something else stupid: ignore him
Jack kills a baby: write a comment

Congratulations Sony! You've gotten me to once again comment on your amazing incompetance.

We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's aendeuryu.

Congrats nimrod! You're Slashdot's Idiot of the Day!

With Microsoft's 360 dead in Japan. Dying in Europe. And selling worse than the first 360 in the US. And selling a miserable 3 million units worldwide after 8 months on the market - worse than their first 5 billion dollar marketplace fiasco with the first Xbox.

And with Nintendo giving up trying to compete technologically by coming out with an overclocked GameCube with a pointer bolted on.

And with Sony selling 100+ million Playstation consoles on their first foray into the console market.

And with Sony selling 106+ million Playstation 2 consoles in their second entry in the console market.

And now with the PS3 Sony is about to put out:

The $499 PS3:

1080p BluRay movies over component
BluRay Live support - additional dynamic content updates and information for movies
DLNA compliance - http://www.dlna.org/home/
1080p Games over component
Free online play for all non-MMORPG titles - confirmed over and over again by Sony
Full backwards compatibility for all PS1 titles
Full backwards compatiblity for all PS2 titles - PS2 chips included in the PS3
Linux
Online movie and music store
Webbrowsing and other desktop apps
Tilt controller
Every single developer that supported the PS2 onboard with their games for the PS3
All parts of the system except the HDMI port are upgradeable
Harddrive upgradeable with stadard store bought drives

For 100 dollars more you get:

60 gig harddrive
WiFi
HDMI

Yep, aendeuryu, poor liddle Sony...

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Khuffie]

And you've proven that you're a complete fanboy with no sense of humour! Poor liddle AC...

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[GuyverDH]

Yep - Poor Sony - getting what they deserve.

Spending to much to deliver a product that is priced OUT OF 98% of the gamers in world's price range.

XBOX 360 didn't do well because it was too expensive for what it offered.
PS3 is WORSE.

I wouldn't buy this piece of shit if it was only $10.00 USD - just because of the offensive nature of BluRay.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[theelectron]

Well, I guess I'll rip on your comment a bit, but I won't resort to calling you names...

BluRay... Ummm, yeah, I don't feel too good about this tech, nor do many people because of the past Sony media problems.

Online movie and music store... So, you're telling me Sony will let me burn those to take with me too? Even after their attempt at preventing this with their rootkit? I don't think so.

Webbrowsing and other desktop apps... Yes, because that is why I get a game console, to write up my resume and lookup porn.

Tilt controller = pointer bolted on, so you already discredited this one, even though it's a good feature.

Every single developer that supported the PS2 onboard with their games for the PS3... that falls under the 'Full backwards compatiblity for all PS2 titles umbrella', or is there more to it?

Harddrive upgradeable with stadard store bought drives... Wouldn't that void your warranty from Sony?

The whole HDTV thing is questionable currently, but I think it will be valuable in a few years when HDTVs actually become more mainstream and when that happens the non-HDMI connector on the cheap version will likely be useless.

Please cut out the pointless fan dribble and give us the useful features.

The sad part: you're right, the PS3 will do really well in the marketplace. I know this, and it is because the large majority of consumers are stupid.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Irish_Samurai]

I hear this too expensive mantra all the time. Hell, I even subscribe to it. Yet I have had more than one of my friends tell me they are buying a PS3 when it drops. I am also beginning to believe that this is a common opinion amongst the non hardcore.

At least the people I know and hang out with (30ish with no children, tech jobs) have the disposable income to buy one of these things no sweat. Personally, I'm waiting to see what the games play like before I choose between a 360 and a PS3.

Also, the Euro market doesn't determine a thing in video games. Japan and the US do. Thats why almost ALL games are released in Europe last.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Redlazer]

Good point, but you have to remember, who is the majority? People working tech jobs with no children? Or people with children who dont have that kindof money to spend?

Yeah, 20 year olds might have enough money to one - but how many teenagers do you know who can manage their money effectively? How many 600 bucks "laying" around?

While Europe certainly does drive killer sales, it helps - and you have to remember, the margins for "extra" money are slimming - 600 bucks used to be relatively easy, but it isnt so much any more.

Now, we get to the parents - out in the stores shopping for a christmas or birthday present. They say they want a PS3 - but im sure their parents will hesitate with such a hefty price tag. i certainly would - im sure, as adults, they have somewhere else theyd rather half a thousand dollars. Car payments, debt, credit cards, etc. Many parents will buy it anyways - but how many will not? More than those that do?

You cannot rely on the hardcore to really drive sales anymore. the casual are more significant - and 600 is not casual. just look at standard PC sales - how many gamingmachines does Dell sell? Far less than the casual POS machines tehy kick out the door.

-Red

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"And with Nintendo giving up trying to compete technologically by coming out with an overclocked GameCube with a pointer bolted on."

Worked for the DS. Enjoy playing all those FPS's with your analog stick.

"And with Sony selling 100+ million Playstation consoles on their first foray into the console market."

So?

"And with Sony selling 106+ million Playstation 2 consoles in their second entry in the console market."

So...?

Sony sold a bunch of systems. Yahoo. So did Nintendo. They lost the roost pretty quick. Heck, the N64 lost to a graphically inferior machine. Times change. For example, some systems are launching for $600 now.

"And now with the PS3 Sony is about to put out.. " ... a bunch of stuff that has little to do with games. You used the history repeating itself argument, so I'll throw it right back at you: The PSP had similar advantages. Look who it's losing to.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[UbuntuDupe]

Yet I have had more than one of my friends tell me they are buying a PS3 when it drops.

This is actually a bad sign for the PS3. If a console has robust initial sales, then these late-buyers will supplement its success. But if everyone, or most people, plans to "buy it later", the sales won't pick up, developers abandon it, and the would-be late buyers just don't buy because, "hey, there aren't many good games for it". Network effects are very strong for consoles.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[garylian]

While I agree with you 100% on the fact that parents will think twice about dropping $600+ on a PS3...

Look at how many 16yr olds get a brand spanking new car when they turn 16. Look how many of them get a Lexus or Acura.

Sure, it doesn't happen everywhere, but there are a lot of places where kids are growing up in smaller families and having parents willing to dump bigtime $$$ on their kids. And there are even more parents that would be willing to dump $600+ on a PS3, plus $50 or so on a game, as an electronic babysitter.

My dauther is 3.5 months old, and I have already had to stop turning on SportsCenter in the morning when I feed her before taking her to daycare. Because she keeps trying to look at the TV. I have seen other parents drop $100-200 a year on DVDs/Tapes for kids just to keep them occupied so they can cook dinner and the like, when kids videos became so popular years ago. Those same parents will probably drop the $$$ on a PS3.

It's sad, but true.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[joshsisk]

Look at how many 16yr olds get a brand spanking new car when they turn 16. Look how many of them get a Lexus or Acura.

This is not the majority though. 100+ million playstation 2s were sold. That level of sales means even people who take the bus to work have them, not just well-off people with nice cars.

The price WILL be a factor. How much of one remains to be seen.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Irish_Samurai]

By "drops" I mean when it initially becomes available.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[UbuntuDupe]

Try to use standard terminology, if you would. At least, don't use a term whose primary meaning in that context is the opposite, or siginificantly different from, what you meant.

Let me guess: you prefer to say "price point" where "price" would convey no less meaning?

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Irish_Samurai]

Actually, where I live it is common.

Also, 100+ million wasn't accomplished at release. Thats over a lifespan. I am willing to bet that there are more than enough Japanese and American fanboys, spoiled kids, and high income/low responsibility adults out there who can allow Sony to at least match the sales for the 360 release.

While I agree that price may be a factor, it's really all speculation until the PS3 is released. Sony has won this battle two gens in a row, a feat only matched by Nintendo. And when Nintendo did it, the game market was pretty small and focused. Now there are plenty of young adults with a more substantial income who may be willing to blindly shell out the money for a PS3, they have never been disappointed by a Sony game box - so they won't chage.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Irish_Samurai]

Actually, drops is pretty standard terminology when speaking plainly. It's slang, get over it.

I also understand the difference between a price point and a price. Go be an asshole somewhere else.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Redlazer]

True, but you also have to consider the reputation of each console.

the PS3, while touted with pride by their fanboys as a "hardcore" and "adult" system, parents with children probably will not want that for their children. they wil go for the tamer system - the Wii. It has a family oriented direction and parents will like that more than the "entertainment system" appeal the PS3 has.

-Red

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[DrEldarion]

The PS2 wasn't the "adult" or "hardcore" system - that was the XBox. It looks like that's going to hold true this generation, too, with the 360 getting more "adolescent male" titles, and the PS3 coming along with more of a variety.

Agreed that the Wii will likely be the most family friendly, but, well, we saw how well that worked out for the GC, right?

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[UbuntuDupe]

Actually, drops is pretty standard terminology when speaking plainly. It's slang, get over it.

People usually say "PS3 drops" in terms of the "price dropping". It's great if it is used to mean "released", but you need to be careful when it usually has the opposite meaning of what you intended.

I also understand the difference between a price point and a price.

Yet you don't understand context. You think you're more educated because you know that a "price point" is a place on the demand curve where the slope changes sharply. What you didn't realize, however, was that people (likely you) use it in places where it conveys no *additional* meaning. Example:

"One flaw in Sony's strategy was the PS3's high price point."

Now, what additional information does one conveny in saying that as opposed to:

"One flaw in Sony's strategy was the PS3's high price."

Though the terms have different definitions, the additional word "point" was clearly irrelevant in that context. But I bet you're proud every time you say "price point". Am I right?

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[buswolley]

Sure there are those types.. But you know what I think.. There are alot more Walmart shopper. Their kids are going to run over to the video game section. They'll try the Wii and love it. The parents will look at the price tags and compare. $170 to $600..Now tell me whose gonna win.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Irish_Samurai]

Your unfounded bashing of my hypothetical use of a term as the backbone for you being right is fucking lame.

If you had used context clues instead of reading flat like a good government educated idiot, you would have understood what I was saying. Don't throw your inability to comprehend onto me because you gave the post a half assed read.

Second, you can dislike someone using the term price point and price interchangably all you want. It doesn't mean shit. So you can stop with the weak ass straw man too.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[GuyverDH]

LOL - Flamebait?

Whose the stupid fucker that thought the above was flamebait?

No, flamebait is what gets typed when I go after the stupid punk who is obviously another Sony fan-boy who got his rocks off moderating someone's opinion as flame-bait.

Grow up, learn a little and forget trying to moderate, whoever the hell you were. You obviously don't have a brain, nor a clue.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[GuyverDH]

LOL - and yes, whose, should have been who's......

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Redlazer]

A valid point - but that was because the angle wasnt quite on. theyve done a great job with aiming it at everyone, rather than just kids. And i still stand firm that no matter the graphics, the content is what matters - i got more content out of my GCN than my PS2 or Xbox.

Just look at the DS - its a huge success, and not just kids have it. its about the content - and people are finally realizing that.

-Red

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[jizziknight]

Come on guys, calm down. We get it. Both of your e-peens are huge. Sadly, that means nothing in the real world. Are you going to bone your girl with it? No. You'll bone her with your real-life tiny wang. /duck

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[tprime]

I wouldn't buy this piece of shit if it was only $10.00 USD - just because of the offensive nature of BluRay

Maybe you wouldn't, but outside of /.ers and other hardcore techies and videophiles, no one cares about what BluRay represents to our fair use. They just see that little Timmy wants one more than anything else and that he won't be happy until then. If they can afford to drop $750-800 (PS3+2nd controller plus 2 games) then they will. Otherwise, they will wait on the first price drop or just move on. People with children don't typically buy based upon principle, they buy based upon what that kid wants.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Irish_Samurai]

See.

You had to go and ruin a nice pointless flame war with rational thought and a well placed e-peen reference. Jeez. I miss the old days where flames we're just read.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, drops is pretty standard terminology when speaking plainly. It's slang, get over it.

Seriously, this is slashdot, not some gaming forum. We're not all 14 year old geeks who haven't learned to speak proper english. If your name means what it means, stop being a Scobe you cunt.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[GuyverDH]

I'm a parent, and I buy based on principal, as well as whether or not it's appropriate for a child.

Dropping $300 or more for a video game system that is obsolete before it's released is not only just a bad idea, it constitutes in my opinion, bad parenting.
It just fuels the "I want" mentality.
Until they can switch from "I want" to "I need, because of these logical reasons", it's not going to happen.

Parents who give their child everything they want, desensitize their children to the value of what they receive. Especially when they end up breaking the toy, because they don't care about it. It didn't cost them anything, not even effort, so why should they care. Chances are, they didn't even say thank you when they received it.

My children may get upset as they grow older, as they aren't going to get all the "latest" just because "everyone else has it", however they will appreciate what they do get, and take care of it - as it's the only one they'll get if they don't.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[joshsisk]

Actually, where I live it is common.

Note that I didn't say common, or where you live. I said the majority, and that to be successful, a product like this needs to appeal to not just the affluent.

While I agree that price may be a factor, it's really all speculation until the PS3 is released. Sony has won this battle two gens in a row, a feat only matched by Nintendo. And when Nintendo did it, the game market was pretty small and focused. Now there are plenty of young adults with a more substantial income who may be willing to blindly shell out the money for a PS3,

Indeed, it is speculation. However, I think my comment that "The price WILL be a factor. How much of one remains to be seen." is quite a bit less speculatory than the above.

It's a simple matter of economics: "Demand is the quantity of a good that consumers are not only willing to purchase but also have the capacity to buy at the given price per unit of time." Capacity means the funds, and the units available.

As I said, price will be a factor. I think it's safe to say that the PS3 will move units more slowly (after the initial sell out) than the PS2 did at a 40% lower price point (comparing the PS2 to the Core PS3). How much slower they will move, remains to be seen. It could be a little, it could be a lot. We'll find out soon enough.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[tprime]

All I can say to that is--- "Good", there needs to be more people like you out there. However, you are in the minority. Everything I have seen recently (and what my wife has seen as a person who deals with children and their parents every day) is that MOST parents would rather just blindly spend the money on what their child "wants" than figure out what they are spending it on. This is the same downward spiral of parental involvement that the ESRB is having trouble with: disinterested parents finding cheap babysitters in $600 devices without understanding what they are spending their money on. When it comes down to it, it really is a cheap form of childcare.

As far as you and your parenting goes, you read slashdot so that kinda takes you out of the general population pool: you're informed new technology.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Rimbo]

That's because European girls like to fuck. Who has time for games?

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo was the only console of the last generation to turn a profit. NDS is currently the top selling console.

And I don't even own a gamecube.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[UbuntuDupe]

I really can't sanction what you have said.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[tepples]

Let me guess: you prefer to say "price point" where "price" would convey no less meaning?

Of course "price point" has a meaning beyond price: those points on the demand curve where elasticity is discontinuous.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Irish_Samurai]

That's funny. Your UID is close to a million and you're gonna sanction my statements. Whatever loser.

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[UbuntuDupe]

YES!!!! I found an example -- you -- of a person I was referring to here! (Note the timestamp on the post. Hope you feel proud of yourself.)

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[UbuntuDupe]

That wasn't the meaning of "sanction" that I was using. *hoping you get the point by now*

Re:We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Irish_Samurai]

I get the point that your a friggin idiot. Probably lonely too.

And cue the complaints...

[NeutronCowboy]

... that there are too many negative Sony stories being posted in 3 - 2 - 1... Oops, I guess I'm too late.

Hey, I like my weekly updates on Sony problems. I need to know whether there'll still be any idiots during launch who will be willing to pay 3 times retail price on Ebay.

Good choice

[n3tcat]

Seems like a good plan. They hold off on production, and at release come up with less supply than demand, and hopefully the lack of supply causes news stories to artificially inflate the demand.

Now what I think will hurt them the most is when people see the $800 price tag on ebay, and say "I'm waiting a couple months so I can buy it at a normal retail price." like they did on their last two consoles.

Surprise! The console price isn't dropping!

Zonk PS3 FUD Turning Bizzare

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone actually read the story this latest bit-o-fud from Zonk is referencing?

It is an article talking about Sony shipping devkits to developers and has nothing about final PS3 consumer hardware being manufactured - along with some creepy Zonk anti-Sony commentary in the summary.

They don't care...

[Darundal]

GS: The 360 was plagued by significant shortages at launch. What steps are you taking to make sure the PS3 doesn't meet the same fate?

KH: Well, I think that you know this is all relative, but you need to put it in context. I think that we've always talked about shipping 2 million units worldwide within the calendar year. Since we're going with three territories, we haven't really come up with an allocation just yet. But even if you do the simple math you're talking about less than 700,000 units per territory, per major territory, between launch and the end of the year. So even if there was some fluctuation--you give Japan more, you give the US more, what have you--you're going to end up with some shortages. So I think that if we've done our jobs right and if we've been able to really have the consumers become interested in this product, then, unfortunately, I think it's going to be very much of a challenge to be able to meet every single unit demand that's out there in the market. That's just a logistical impossibility. Unless we suddenly say, "Well we want to wait until June of next year to launch because we want to stockpile product," I don't think that's the approach we want to take.

Great thing they are concerned about the consumer. Really, are they nuts? Charging hundreds more than their competitors (one of which has a released product and one of which has a product which will be released near it that also has better press) for the console, and running a freaking shortage? They do realize that they aren't the only major player here, that they have next to no good press, and that doing this is likely to send people running to their competitors? They really don't seem to realize that they can't just jerk around with consumers like this without being jerked back at in return...I predict great profits from this one.

Re:They don't care...

[Daetrin]

Great thing they are concerned about the consumer. Really, are they nuts? Charging hundreds more than their competitors (one of which has a released product and one of which has a product which will be released near it that also has better press) for the console, and running a freaking shortage?

In Sony's defense, they probably don't have the resources to produce as many units as they'd ideally like to. Economies of scale only apply up to a certain point and over a certain time frame. They probably can't simply hire a couple factories for just a few months to produce extra consoles for the launch except at prohibitive expense. Alternately the people in charge of researching such things at Sony may have a better handle on the likely demand that you think, it's possibly that they've accepted that their higher price point will result in somewhat lower initial sales and are underproducing to match.

I don't disagree that at least one of [over-priced console] and [possibly low initial shipments] is a mistake, however i expect that Sony has painted themselves into a corner at this point in that regard. It's probably far too late to take significant actions to affect either of those situations.

Re:They don't care...

[WaywardScythe]

and running a freaking shortage?
Based on the responses from the majority around here they either (a) not going to buy one for hardware concerns, (b) not going to buy one because it's Sony, or (c) not going to buy one because 98% of gamers cannot afford it. So, by my calculations, 2% of gamers should easily be able to get one of the 2 million consoles in the initial shipment and everyone else is content with there decision to not buy one at all. It's a win/win for everyone! Sounds like Sony's got it right actually.

Re:They don't care...

[ClamIAm]

I think you're failing to take into account a couple of things. The most obvious one is the history of console releases. The PS2 had a launch shortage, yet this didn't cause tons of gamers to jump ship.

Of course, you could claim that the PS3 is different, as it costs twice as much and people totally hate Sony nowadays. But I think a more interesting point is to look at the launch of the Xbox 360. The Xbox wasn't nearly as successfull as the original Playstation, yet its sequel still managed to sell out on launch day.

I think Sony has learned a lesson from this, and the lesson is pretty simple: videogame nerds will pay a lot of money for stuff.

Re:They don't care...

[trdrstv]

The PS2 had a launch shortage, yet this didn't cause tons of gamers to jump ship.

The difference being that the X-Box and GameCube were not available for another full year. The PS2 was competing with the Dreamcast, and the N64 and it had DVD playbeack, which was a differentiating (and popular) feature at the time.

This time the Nintendo Wii will be out (by most accounts) at least for a few weeks, the X-box 360 (for a full year) and on the 2nd or 3rd wave of games, and Blu-Ray is still a niche market and not nearly as compelling as DVD was in 2000.

The Xbox wasn't nearly as successfull as the original Playstation, yet its sequel still managed to sell out on launch day.

Agreed, but due to supply issues that wasn't difficult. Nintendo sold more Gamecubes from the day the 360 launched through the end of the year than Microsoft sold 360s.

Re:They don't care...

[ClamIAm]

Actually, when you include the Dreamcast in the picture, the PS2 launch was pretty similar to the PS3 launch.

We've found the Idiot of The Day, guys

[Redlazer]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Yeah, we found him all right. Good old AC, for the win. Its too expensive. Only fanboys like you will buy one. It costs more than most people in a month in europe - its not necessarily "too expensive", its more like "Id rather make my car and house payments". -Red

Sounds like JIT to me

[TommyBear]

A manufacturing method called Just-In-Time is popular among Japanese and worldwide companies. Look here for reference.

Basically, the strategy allows a company to avoid inventory costs and be more agile when it comes to shifting stock around territories (from ones that aren't selling to ones that are). Toyota use the method and I've seen it first hand. Basically you establish a small buffer (maybe a month before launch) and ship those launch territories, while keeping some in stock. You then watch your stock in those territories and produce units, just-in-time, to meet demand(in theory).

Re:Sounds like JIT to me

[LearningHard]

Wow, you got the concept of JIT right but completely missed the implementation. JIT is an inventory process like you describe but when you are doing a major launch of a product you need a lot of that product on the shelves at the beginning. The buffer that Sony needs for that initial shock of the launch is going to be rather large and it is worrisome that they have not started building that buffer yet.

Re:Sounds like JIT to me

[Hope Thelps]

The buffer that Sony needs for that initial shock of the launch is going to be rather large and it is worrisome that they have not started building that buffer yet.

Interesting. I'm not familiar with the manufacturing process myself. How many units do you feel they need and how far in advance of launch do you estimate they should have started production in order to have them ready?

Re:Sounds like JIT to me

[poot_rootbeer]

Toyota might not be a great example of the success of JIT production, seeing as how the demand for their Prius hybrids has far outstripped their ability to supply (in some parts of the United States at least), resulting in wait lists of a year or longer, and selling prices far above MSRP.

Re:Sounds like JIT to me

[Anonymous Coward]

Normally, yes, but you're talking about the launch of a new console here. They could sell the 6 million they plan to produce for this financial year in the first week if they wanted to. They'll be in short supply until christmas - probably only fulfilling preorders - and may be undersupplied for much longer if they manage to attract people outside their fanbase. As far as demand is concerned there's no point in not hitting the launch with every unit you can scrape together.

Of course, for maximum publicity or to reduce losses (if they're somehow selling for a loss at $500/$600 + the profit margin on the accessories + licence fee on games and blu-ray disks) they might want to engineer a shortage. Sounds like this is what they're doing.

Re:Sounds like JIT to me

[TommyBear]

I guess that's a good point. JIT is something that probably works best for conventional manufacturing that involves common well known components. In the case of the Prius, it is most likely the cars' unique part requirements, that cause a problem.

don't fret

[dolson]

Everyone who has the money and the desire to spend it on this system need not worry. It doesn't take long to manufacture a dozen consoles.

Re:don't fret

[DrXym]

While I can't say for certain if I'll buy a PS3 (let the early adopter suckers beta test it first), I know that I want something that does more than just play games. I only have a finite amount of space and plug sockets by my TV and multi-function device is more useful to me. If the PS3 can play movies, stream (& rip) music, be a passable web browser and even possibly even support Linux (and by extension homebrew, emulation etc.), that makes it well worth the money.

At that point you're talking about something almost akin to the Intel Viiv architecture but undercutting it by a large margin. It is probably Viiv and Windows Media Center which forced the XBox 360 to have such crippled multi-media support. Let's hope Sony learn from their mistakes (and from the relatively liberal DRM in the PSP) and come up with the goods.

Re:don't fret

[monopole]

...the relatively liberal DRM in the PSP...
Liberal compared to what? With a new crippling "feature" with every patch? With people desprately downgrading their software at every turn? With UMD proving to be BetaMax2005?

Oh wait, we're dealing with Sony, the company that has shipped BluRay drives which won't play BluRay disks:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/ 11/1815258
Yeah, in comparison the PSP is relatively liberal with it's DRM.

Re:don't fret

[DrXym]

Liberal compared to what? With a new crippling "feature" with every patch? With people desprately downgrading their software at every turn? With UMD proving to be BetaMax2005?

Liberal compared to what Sony had every right to make it. It could have been far worse. As it stands it plays ripped movies & music in a variety of formats, including WMA & AAC. From Sony that's very liberal. The only people desperately trying to downgrade are pirates and homebrewers. Now I'm the first to support homebrew, but it is entirely understandable that Sony defend their system from piracy. Piracy would kill the PSP stone dead.

There has been talk (which I don't believe 100%) that the PS3 will have Linux out of the box. That would enable the PS3 to support the homebrew scene quite adequately and should make everyone happy. Homebrewers can programme to the Linux APIs making them happy. Sony don't have to expose the same APIs used by games making them happy. I'd love for it to happen, simply because it would be pretty awesome. But I have a feeling that if it appears at all that will be a separate install at some unspecified point in the future.

Oh wait, we're dealing with Sony, the company that has shipped BluRay drives which won't play BluRay disks:

And is that Sony being evil or simply some kind of cock up?

Re:don't fret

[trdrstv]

There has been talk (which I don't believe 100%) that the PS3 will have Linux out of the box.

There will be (Sony's using it as a tax dodge), and you can bet it will be just as significant as Linux was for the PS2!

Re:don't fret

[DrXym]

I don't care if Sony uses it as a tax dodge so long as the system is useful. It could even work to Sony's advantage. After all, a PS3 armed with Linux is a computer, and in theory just as capable of doing anything that you can do with Linux on a normal PC, except of course the PS3 is armed with a video out, is always on (or more likely to be on), has wireless and is fairly cheap. I disagree that it will be as "significant" (i.e. useless) as the PS2. The PS2 had no harddrive, no LAN, no standby mode (where when you turn on it resumes from where you left). Even the USB was mangled so standard devices don't work. Later small form factor PS2s can't even install a HD. Once you kitted it out with Linux you had an underpowered and mostly useless system.

All models of the PS3 have a harddrive, bluetooth & USB, and the more expensive one has wireless too. If Linux shipped out of the box, it would make the PS3 really, really useful for a whole raft of things. Let's hope Sony do ship it out of the box, or intend to offer it as an online download for their service. It would be a wasted opportunity if they don't.

Re:don't fret

[trdrstv]

The PS2 had no harddrive, no LAN...

Sure it did. In fact you couldn't buy the Linux DVD seperately, you needed to buy the Kit with it included.

Even the USB was mangled so standard devices don't work.

Which leads me to question how usefull PS3 Linux will be...

If you want a Linux based PC, you can get them for under $100.

Re:don't fret

[DrXym]

I know you could buy a harddrive and a LAN, but the point was it doesn't out of the box. To get the PS2 up to being a Linux machine cost you something like $150 on top of the price of the console. What's the point? As it happens I have a network adapter myself so I know you can get the stuff. It's just the expense of doing so and the end result don't make it a worthwhile proposition. On the other hand, Linux for the PS3 (or even the PSP via a UMD) would be a good proposition. I'm actually surprised that Sony don't do one for the PSP since homebrewers wouldn't have a reason to bitch about firmware anymore - let them boot from Linux on UMD and run apps off their memory stick. It might even shift a few PSPs simply because it would be a great toy.

The point however is that it was a big pain to get Linux and when you did it was pretty useless.

As for a PC that does Linux for $100 - maybe. But would you stick it beside your TV? Does it have a video out? Does it play next-gen console games too? Or music? Or blu-ray & DVDs? Is it wireless? etc.

Consoles have little excuse for *just* playing games these days. Why do I need 4 devices under my TV anyway when a PS3 / XBox 360 has the potential of replacing 3 of them - CD/DVD player, games console, and VCR / PVR (via a dongle of some kind). These consoles can do other things, assuming they aren't crippled in the firmware. My feeling is that the XBox 360 was deliberately crippled to make it a client of a Windows Media PC (e.g. the streaming of video content only). It could have ripped movies or at least offered PVR functionality if the firmware allowed it. The XBox 360 went from being a media hub to being a dumb client. I have no idea if the PS3 will be similarly crippled. The PS3 has enormous potential but whether it makes good on that or goes through its own retardation (thanks to Sony BMG or some other division freaking out over it) remains to be seen.

I'll let other people find out for me what it can / can't do after it goes on sale. At that point I'll make my mind up if I want one and I'll certainly take my time to buy it if I do.

Zonked tag - worst possible spin again

[SuperKendall]

Apply the Zonked tag, as once again the story with the worst possible spin has been used.

Sony may not be manufacturing quite yet, but does that matter if they can meet launch targets?

Some other headlines that would have works just as well for this same interview:

"Sony to launch online service day of console launch"

"Sony to provide downloadable PSP games this year"

or even just

"Kaz Hirai of Sony responds to Yankee Group forecast"

Re:Zonked tag - worst possible spin again

[jizziknight]

Sony may not be manufacturing quite yet, but does that matter if they can meet launch targets?

Isn't that exactly the point of the article? As in, if they haven't started manufacturing yet, how can they expect to meet launch targets? Or, are they intentionally underproducing to cause a shortage and artificial sellouts? Or, does Sony have something up their sleeves that will allow them to put a shitton of PS3s together really fast? Etc, etc...

Seriously, these types of comments need to be modded off-topic or flamebait or something. Sure, we can call the editors' motives, skills, biases, etc. (sexual preferences, even?) into question, but that should be on articles that are bunk. This one however has some relevant info, and would be a legitimate concern for those of us (no matter how few there are) who actually want to get a PS3 at launch. (I personally will never buy one)

Initial price not all that important

[jmorris42]

> You cannot rely on the hardcore to really drive sales anymore. the casual are more significant - and 600 is not casual.

Been guilty of that thinking myself. But lately I have been pondering thus: Nobody has been able to manufacture enough units to satisfy initial demand on a new console. That being the case for the PS3 I suspect it won't matter what price they sell it for, there will probably be enough fanbois, California (where the cost of living is such that $500-$600 isn't much) IT geeks, spoiled yuppie kids who will get one for Xmas regardless of whether mom has to scrounge one from Ebay for $1000, etc. to sell out the initial inventory for Xmas '06.

It is '07 where things get interesting. Once they reap all of the 'gotta have it at any price' sales and get production ramped up to churn out machines by the freighter load they have to sell em to regular folk. To sell the sort of mass quantities that can keep the factories humming and sustain developer interest that price does have to drop, and fairly fast. Can they do it?

Re:Initial price not all that important

[Anonymous Coward]

I have seen this argument many times but I don't think that it is valid. With the PS2 you had a situation where there was a couple million people who were willing to purchase a PS2 at $300, a much smaller number of systems, and very few people who were thinking of selling a system on eBay; for argument sake, let's say at launch 2 Million people want a PS2 at $300, Sony had 500,000 units available, and only 10,000 people thought of selling their system on eBay; now the result of this is that after the initial shipment has sold there would be 1.5 Million people who wanted a system but could not buy one, if only 5% (75,000) of those people go to eBay there is massive competition for a small number of systems (meaning high prices).

Now basic economics tells us that as prices increase quantity demanded decreases, so at twice the price the number of people who want a PS3 at launch has probably dropped in half or quarter (I would suspect closer to a quarter, and possibly less); at the same time there are far more (probably closer to 50,000) people who will try to sell a system on eBay. If Sony provides 500,000 units, and there are 500,000 people who want the system there is no competition because (regardless of whether you buy it on eBay or in a store) there is a system that has been made for you.

Sony now has made more money per system, so that's good right?

No, the PS3 now has a stigma of being an overly expensive luxury item; for the next 3 years people will still associate the price of a PS3 as $600 (or quite possibly $800 because of bundles). The only way to battle this is to spend a lot of money on a marketing campaign and reduce price rapidly; a marketing campaign of "now only $400" will probably go very poorly, and excessive or rapid price drops will agrivate your early adopters and lead people to anticipate further price drops (which they will hold off for).

Re:Initial price not all that important

[Babbster]

To sell the sort of mass quantities that can keep the factories humming and sustain developer interest that price does have to drop, and fairly fast. Can they do it?

Not if history is any guide. The PS2 was out for about 18 months before the first price drop of $100 (33%). Then, after 12 months it dropped 10%, the following year 16%, and finally 13% this year to its current price of $130.

If they could follow the same pattern in terms of percentages (and these numbers are rounded a bit), the PS3 price would drop to $335 in 2008, $300 in 2009, $250 in 2010 and $220 in 2011. If the Xbox 360 followed the same guide, we would see (premium - the core prices would be more like the PS2) $270 in 2007, $240 in 2008, $200 in 2009, $170 in 2010.

Of course, Sony could end up being a lot more aggressive if things start working out better in terms of Cell production, and if Blu-Ray manages to knock HD-DVD out of the movie market (I'm sure MS could hang with them easily, staying lower priced no matter what Sony does). If not, we could be looking at PS3 consoles costing a minimum $300 up to 3 years from now - that would seem to be something that would put a dent in PS3 sales compared to those Sony enjoyed with the much less expensive PS2.

Depends on a lot of factors

[BitterAndDrunk]

Lots of things drill down to that decision, which is what a product manager's job essentially is.

Off the back of a napkin, you need to know:
Forecasted sales, by region
Distribution network capabilities
lead time of product manufacture, and an analysis of any potential long-lead parts. Long lead parts are any electronics product that potentially take 5-6 months or longer to acquire. I don't know what the allocation picture is on electronics right now (if there even is one) as I've been out of high tech for a little while.

JIT isn't a really great model, IMO. Its end result is the upstream suppliers (with less negotiating power than a Toyota or Sony) holds the excess inventory (and consequently, risk) but nothing really changes froma production standpoint.

A bit simplified, but that's what I've seen in the Real World.

Finally, the first production run is going to be painful, it always is. It's a little surprising that they're not starting manufacturing yet, and I'd expect it to begin immediately following Labor Day weekend if they expect to hit a Christmas release. But that's off the cuff - we don't know how many production facilities they've got, what they're average units/hr are, nor what they're distro network looks like. It could be a case where they have an exceedingly efficient distro network which is all cross-docking and freight breaking, so units can come into the states in small amounts and filter efficiently to the retailers. (I'd doubt it, however; it strikes me that you'd want to resell to WalMart, Meijer's, Best Buy, etc and force their distribution networks to do the dirty work)

Are you hinting ....

[demonic-halo]

Are you hinting that the PS3 is some sort of Vaporware?

It's real dammit. I believe in the blue ray!

Real PS3 facts pulled from experience and thin air

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact 1 - the PS3 will sell pretty much every unit Sony can produce this Xmas (if they can get it manufactured. It may be late, don't be suprised.)
Fact 2 - Everyone that has a PS2 and loves it (and also uses it as their primary game machine) wants a PS3. (Just as PS1 owners wanted a PS2.)
Fact 3 - No one outside of Slashdot (and maybe Digg) gives a flying crap about "root-kits".
Fact 4 - The exclusive (TRUE exclusive) PS3 games (FF XIII, MGS4) will sell PS3 units to everyone that didn't buy a PS3 at launch.
Fact 5 - Average consumers don't want to pay 500 or 600 dollars for a game machine. However, they will. Simply because it is PlayStation 3.
Fact 6 - PS3 games, on the whole, will never actually look better than xBox 360 games, the video GPU's are just too similar.
Fact 7 - Fact 6 is meaningless, because people "Don't Care". All they will know is that PS3 games "Look frikin REAL, man!!"
Fact 8 - Tech savvy people (such as slashdotters) will own all three new consoles anyway, and then lie in the /. forums about how "I played a PS3 at a kiosk at Game Spot, I wouldn't own one if they came free in McDonald's Happy Meals!!"
Fact 9 - These facts WILL prove to be suprisingly accurate come February 2007.

Hehe

[spun]

You know, someone hanging from a noose could be said to be "in full swing" too. Just sayin'...

Re:Real PS3 facts pulled from experience and thin

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact 1 - the PS3 will sell pretty much every unit Sony can produce this Xmas (if they can get it manufactured. It may be late, don't be suprised.)

No doubt, the PS3 will probably be very difficult to produce and will be in very short supply.

Fact 2 - Everyone that has a PS2 and loves it (and also uses it as their primary game machine) wants a PS3. (Just as PS1 owners wanted a PS2.)

That's not a fact, being that I own and love my PS2 and have no desire to purchase a PS3 I am a example which negates your everyone claim. Ultimately, everyone I know that owns a PS2 and heard the price of a PS3 refuses to buy one, even the really rich (always early adopt) crowd; this might change 18 months down the road, but if early adopters do not buy the PS3 it will have disapointing game sales and it's "exclusive" games will become not so exclusive. The difference between a Sony system and a Nintendo system is people buy a Nintendo system for games that can only be bought for a Nintendo System (first party games), a Sony system is bought for games that can be bought (in theory) for other systems (third party games).

Fact 3 - No one outside of Slashdot (and maybe Digg) gives a flying crap about "root-kits".

This one is also false; most of the people who had their computer damaged were those with poor computer skills. When these people when to their geeky friends to fix their computer they found out about the rootkit. The average responce was "Why would Sony, a respected company, want to install a virus on my computer? I don't think I'll buy another Sony product"

Fact 4 - The exclusive (TRUE exclusive) PS3 games (FF XIII, MGS4) will sell PS3 units to everyone that didn't buy a PS3 at launch.

Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy have been finding their way to other consoles lately; these titles are not tied to Sony, they are launched on the market leading platform. If Sony is not leading in market share come November 2007 (which they probably won't be) expect to see these games delayed to be released on other platforms.

Fact 5 - Average consumers don't want to pay 500 or 600 dollars for a game machine. However, they will. Simply because it is PlayStation 3.

At one point in time you could say that Nintendo's consoles would sell because they have "Nintendo" written on them; brand loyalty is a very difficult thing to maintain in highly competative markets. Don't expect too many people to say "It has no games I want, and is really expensive, but that Sony logo is cool so I'll buy it"

Fact 6 - PS3 games, on the whole, will never actually look better than xBox 360 games, the video GPU's are just too similar.

I'd actually argue it is because we are dealing with diminishing returns on system power ... but this is still (basically) true.

Fact 7 - Fact 6 is meaningless, because people "Don't Care". All they will know is that PS3 games "Look frikin REAL, man!!"

Maybe, but at the same time animation is really becomming a problem in these "ultra-realistic" games. I don't remember the name of the game, but the screen shots for it are amazing but the video looks like crap because of how out of sync the animation is to the voice; rather than looking like normal (bad) game animation it looks really creepy. I'm probably alone, but was so offended (bad word for it) by how it moved that I couldn't play that game.

Fact 8 - Tech savvy people (such as slashdotters) will own all three new consoles anyway, and then lie in the /. forums about how "I played a PS3 at a kiosk at Game Spot, I wouldn't own one if they came free in McDonald's Happy Meals!!"

Maybe, I think you'll see a large portion of people owning an XBox 360 + Wii or a PS3 + Wii but I think the number of people who own an XBox 360 and PS3 will be pretty small. The reason for this is that the combined cost is insane ($1000), if you include basic accessories (like extra controllers) it simply is too expensive; also the number of games that are going to be exclusive is pretty small because the cost to develop games for XBox 360, PS3 and High End PC are so high that the risk is too great to release it on one platform.

69 days before the 360 shipped...

[Hamster Lover]

I am too lazy for Google for a link, but apparently the time between the start of manufacture of the 360 and the launch was a scant 69 days. I think we all know how well that went. With under 90 days until the PS3 launch in Japan and North America I am not at all confident that Sony can produce the 2 million units they expect to be ready for launch.

I think Nintendo might steal significant thunder from Sony if PS3 shortages are a drastic as I expect by offering the Wii in quantity with the quality and quantity of launch titles that are anticipated. If a parent walks into a store around Christmas asks for a PS3 only to hear that it's out of stock looks at the Wii, the breadth of launch titles, the comparitive price, the innovative control style, the name Nintendo and the fact that it's in stock, well then maybe Nintendo can clean the floor with Sony. I hope NIntendo realizes this. Anyone who doubts that it might happen need only look at the success of the DS versus the PSP.

Re:69 days before the 360 shipped...

[Ichigo Kurosaki]

Are you kidding me? If there kids want ps3 theres no way they are going to see the wii and grab it. The type of games these kids play are not on the Wii and it would not take long at all for the parent to see this if they even stopped to look around after hearing that there are no ps3s in stock.

Re:69 days before the 360 shipped...

[batkiwi]

You haven't seen their latest backtracking... they want 2 million by the end of the year, not on launch day.

Re:Real PS3 facts pulled from experience and thin

[MemoryDragon]

I would not count on brand recognition being a driver for sales. Sony has an awfully lousy brand reputation over here in Europe, and has earned that rightfully due to lousy customer service, expensive out of warranty repairs, lots of repairs etc... If you ask an everage person over here, they probably go for other brands first unless there is a real reason to buy Sony. Sony used to be good, but their quality has gone down the drain the last years once they centralized their repair network and once they started to treat their customers like John Romero wanted to have his customers in a famous ad...

Exactly where they intend to be.

[tprime]

Sony knows that their price is high, that is probably one of the reasons they have not yet started manufacturing the PS3, it costs them too much. Every day that passes means that the already expensive components of the PS3 drop just a little bit in price. When they feel that they will be able to produce enough units to meet their outrageous price, they will start production. It will minimize their losses on the devices. Regardless of price or number of units able to be sold, they need to just RELEASE their system before holiday 2006. Otherwise little Timmy (or 30yr old lives in his mothers basement Timmy) will give up and get the 360. If they come out, even in limited numbers, the demand will still be there and for many people out there the 360 is not considered a substitute. Those people will just end up waiting until a PS3 becomes available and won't spend their money on a 360 or Wii. Right now, the PS3 is just a concept, when it is released it becomes real in consumers minds.

I haven't decided where I'm going yet with the next gen systems. I am certainly not going to spend $600 on a console. My options are a refurbished 360 or a Wii. Maybe a refurb PS3 after the first price drop. It all depends on the content.

And cue the fanboys & appologists...

[Anonymous Coward]

... who want to suck on Zonk's cock.

Hay look he actually posted a nice article... Of course it might have to do with the fact he hasn't tacked on a editorial comment and that the story still isn't good news.

So then... If a KKK guy who constantly posts stories about how our problems are caused by blacks, and accepts a "neutral" submission equivalent to this one, it makes him an OK guy? Come on, we have all seen the "well I am not biased, look I just posed a non-biased story!" defense(s) before.

And don't' get me started on how the exact same crap was going on here with the XboxOne, and how things really turned out....

Re: What happens if they don't sell out?

[trdrstv]

Right now if they think they can get 2 million units out the door by December 31st, 2006 and launch in all 3 territories, that means there will be no reason for them to not sell out. However it will be much more damaging if the Wii launches strong with twice as many units and sells more / sells out faster than the PS3.

If Sony Doesn't sell out in every territory by Christmas they will have to do massive damage control.

Blown out of proportion?

[alvinrod]

I think that things might be slightly blown out of proportion here. First of all, I think that Cell chips, RAM, GPU's, and Blu-Ray drives have already been produced for the PlayStation 3, however they have not been assembled yet. Perhaps there aren't enough of any particular component yet to start ramping up production without running out of said component. Additionally, Microsoft didn't start manufacturing consoles until September either, and they still managed to get the Xbox 360 to market, albeit fewer than was initial demand for.

I don't think it's fair to consider Sony to be doomed, but they might run into some of the same problems that Microsoft did last year if they don't have enough consoles out the door in time for the holiday season.

Re:Blown out of proportion?

[buswolley]

But the Wii started production in July.

Re: PSP Shortages?

[trdrstv]

PSP Shortages? What territory was that? In the US you could find them on the shelves a few weeks after launch. Sony announced they would hit NA with 1 million PSP's at launch. Within 7 days they sold about 600,000 which meant you could be casual about picking it up, as there were plenty on the shelves. Actually, I have yet to see a local shop be sold out of PSP's.

Re: What happens if they don't sell out?

[10Neon]

If Sony Doesn't sell out in every territory by Christmas they will have to do massive damage control.

I thought you could only do MASSIVE DAMAGE by flipping it over and hitting its' weak spot. I guess I was thinking of something else.

Re: Disk Read Error....

[trdrstv]

Sony seem to be preparing to offer us is some overpriced, overhyped, problem ridden piece of hardware,

Dude, That's their business model!

Dude, you are my hero...

[fujiman]

You worked harder on that post than I did through most of High School.

Re:Sounds like "NIT" to me

[fujiman]

As in "Not In Time"

"Just in Time" requires precision calculation as to how much inventory is required to BUILD a product, not deliver a product. For example, if Sony Stockpiled too many Cell processors, that is bad, and wastes warehouse space (although cell chips wouldn't take up appreciable space). If there are too few, demand goes unmet.

"JIT" does not refer to completed product. That calculation is different, and is based on market demand, not manufacturing capacity (which is only indirectly based on market demand).

In short Sony does not have enough completed product, and no JIT strategy will get them there.

Re: PSP Shortages?

[abigsmurf]

The UK, ie. Sony's whipping boy.

Dude, you need a Dell

[tepples]

waiting until after an item is purchased is really "a-little-too-late" manufacturing.

You call it "a little too late". Dell calls it "made to order".

FUD

[Manmademan]

I'm not sure how this keeps getting trotted out. Sony made a TON of money on the Ps2 (and the Ps1) and continues to do so. They didn't profit on the HARDWARE ITSELF for about 18 months or so, but the software and the current model of the Ps2 is still VERY profitable for sony. The only company to lose money last round was microsoft, and they've learned from their mistakes- the 360 is expected to make a profit within the next year or so.

Also, the NDS is not a console- it's a handheld. The hardware and the markets they target are COMPLETELY different, and implying that the NDS is in any way shape or form in competition with the 360, the Ps2, Ps3, Wii, or Gamecube is idiocy.

Re:FUD

[Zardus]

My wife and I use our Gamecube primarily to play games together. Neither of us really has much interest in single-player games. I got disillusioned with the corporization of the games industry and don't really play any single player games that were made after like 1995 or so (only exception being Super Mario Sunshine), and she just never had the exposure to them. However, we're both very avid gamers of multiplayer games.

We both got DS Lites this past week for the purpose of playing together. Spent a good part of last night playing Animal Crossing and we're planning to get Star Fox Command, Tetris DS, and all sorts of other games we can play together.

For us, the DS is definitely in competition with the other consoles. We use it for the exact same purpose. Only difference is that I'm finding myself more and more open to playing single player games with it as they seem less a blatant attempt to cash in on my hobby and more of something with an honest goal of fun. She's also finding single-player games that she's interested in on it, so it looks like the DS is getting us back into gaming in more than just a multi-player game, and is doing it better than any recent console has. I'm expecting a similar experience with the Wii.

Anyways, I rambled on a bit, but the point is that I think the DS is the first handheld that is really solid competition for the traditional consoles. The games are approaching the same depth, and the purpose is becoming the same.

Long lead parts

[Lonewolf666]

Computer chips, especially the Cell and the PS3 graphics chip that have little to none use outside the PS3 (I know there are a few Cell servers, but the numbers are really low compared to the PS3 needs).
AFAIK the manufacturing process of advanced chips takes several weeks if not months. And for the chips that are specific to the PS3, you cannot just buy them elsewhere. So if production of these is not running yet, there may be a problem with getting the PS3 launced this year.

NES on a chip

[tepples]

If you're complaining about the lack of a slot to put your SNES cartridge, then it's another thing, and I don't think Nintendo mentionned that it would be possible to do so.

The Famicom has been on a single chip for a long time, to the point where PolyStation and other NES clones are more popular than PlayStation some parts of the world. I'm pretty sure that the Super Famicom (also called Super NES) can similarly be reduced to a single chip by now. Would it be so hard for Nintendo to make an adapter similar to Super Game Boy or Game Boy Player allowing use of classic systems' Game Paks?

Re:NES on a chip

[Phisbut]

The Famicom has been on a single chip for a long time, to the point where PolyStation and other NES clones are more popular than PlayStation some parts of the world. I'm pretty sure that the Super Famicom (also called Super NES) can similarly be reduced to a single chip by now. Would it be so hard for Nintendo to make an adapter similar to Super Game Boy or Game Boy Player allowing use of classic systems' Game Paks?

Did you even read the article you pointed to? Quote : "However, NOACs tend to poorly recreate the NES system's circuitry, which causes inaccurate colors, inaccurate audio, missing sounds, additional glitches, and the inability to run certain NES and Famicom games." That's hardly the kind of quality one would expect from Nintendo, and I'd rather they not do it at all than they do something crappy. And even if they made an adapter, you would still have to buy it, therefore paying to play games you already own.

Amazon sells the GameBoy Player over $50 (I have no idea of the retail price). Say you have a couple of NES games, a couple of SNES games, a couple of N64 games and a couple of Gameboy games (probably more, but only a couple might be worth playing over and over and over again after all those years). You could either buy 4 adapters at about $30 each (number was pulled out of ass, but still seems about right) and only be able to play the games you already own (not always easy to find a cartridge of Kid Icarus), hoping that those cartridges are still in good shape (I didn't check, but I doubt the battery on my Legend of Zelda NES cartridge will keep my saved games reliably), or you could "rebuy" only the games you actually want to play on the new console for prices ranging from $1 to $5 (was an official price list announced?), and then try other games that you don't already own the original cartridge and which can't be found anymore. If there's only one or two games on the N64 that I'd like to play again (let's face it...), it would suck to have to buy a $30 adapter if I can rebuy the games $5 each.

The choice Nintendo made both costs less, gives you access to more games, and is probably less prone to hardware defects.

Don't dismiss broken systems

[tepples]

if you have the old games... why rebuy them, unless your system is broken.

A lot of PlayStation 2 consoles were purchased by customers who have had a PS1 break on them. In addition, the front-loading NES Game Pak connector wears down rawther easily.

Aside from copy-protection on the [PlayStation 3 console's] games (which, IMO, is acceptable for a console)

A problem happens when the copy protection interferes with the ability of hobbyists to compile and run software on the console. Look at Sony's fight to keep the PSP closed.

has there been any other confirmed DRM?

Blu-ray Disc video uses AACS, which allows movie studios to revoke your player's ability to play Hollywood movies. It also has Image Constraint Token, which allows movie studios to force the "budget" (500 USD) version of the PS3, along with other players that lack DVI+HDCP or HDMI+HDCP output, to downsample the video to near-DVD resolution. In addition, Sony still owns that patent on allowing game discs to be node-locked, which interferes with video game rentals and migration of "licenses" from a broken console to a replacement console.

Game Boy Player?

[tepples]

There should be 100% backwards compatibility to the Gamecube, so this only applies to the earlier cartridge based systems

Cartridge-based systems such as the Game Boy Advance? For several months, the GameCube was bundled with an accessory to use games for Game Boy, GBC, and GBA. (This accessory is still available for separate purchase.) There has been no indication that the Wii will be able to use this accessory or that there will be a counterpart for the Wii.

Re:Game Boy Player?

[Wdomburg]

Never ran accross that accessory, myself, so no idea. :) Would be nice, though.

DVD Video is proprietary. So is Blu-ray.

[tepples]

this argument comes up EVERY TIME Blu-Ray is mentioned, it is NOT a Sony Proprietary media format

Unless free software can play Blu-ray Disc video in major developed markets, Blu-ray Disc video is a proprietary format. It's just as proprietary as DVD Video, which is subject to software patents and anti-circumvention restrictions.

How "price point" might apply here

[tepples]

"One flaw in Sony's strategy was the PS3's high price point."

Now, what additional information does one conveny in saying that as opposed to:

"One flaw in Sony's strategy was the PS3's high price."

Each price point may represent a zero-crossing in marginal profit, which corresponds to a local maximum in the profit curve. The sentence with "price point" means that Sony identified these points, considered several, and chose one that places the console out of reach of many potential buyers. It adds a little meaning to the sentence with "price" but, I admit, not much.

*BZZT*

[UbuntuDupe]

The sentence with "price point" does not imply Sony consciously identified a price point, while the one without "point" does not imply Sony did not consciously identify a price point. Even if they did so imply, that would not be relevant to the author's point in any discussion I can conceive of. And even if someone were emphasizing something relevant to the demand curve's shape, I've always seen the term "price point" used to simply refer to the retail price they have set for it.

But I think your little fantasy that you knew some calculus and economics that I didn't was kinda cute, so I'll give you that.

Could Sony break the mold?

[PhoenixOne]

I wonder why Sony (or Microsoft, or Nintendo) doesn't direct market like Dell. Instead they market their console (which they say is a PC ;)) like a toaster oven or toy.

Yeah, I don't know crap about marketing, so the answer is probably obvious. But with all the money spent on advertising by Sony themselves, I don't see why they need a ToysRUs, Amazon, or Wal*Mart. At least not for the first generation of systems.

Sell direct to the user and reduce the preorder headaches by making sure that each unit gets to an end user and not stuck in a warehouse or on the shelf of a store in BFE.

NOAC accuracy; will all titles be available?

[tepples]

Quote: "However, NOACs tend to poorly recreate the NES system's circuitry, which causes inaccurate colors, inaccurate audio, missing sounds, additional glitches, and the inability to run certain NES and Famicom games."

True, some NOACs are buggy, most notably the one used in Messiah Generation NEX. But some are near perfect.

That's hardly the kind of quality one would expect from Nintendo

Nintendo designed the NES and Super NES together with Ricoh. Nintendo obviously has its own NES schematics, with which it can accurately replicate the NES logic gate-for-gate in the same way that Sony shrunk the PlayStation logic into one chip (PSone, PS2) and then into part of a chip (PStwo).

or you could "rebuy" only the games you actually want to play on the new console for prices ranging from $1 to $5 (was an official price list announced?)

Will all licensed games be available for purchase, or will select publishers offer select titles?