Zelda on the Wii To Include Sword Swinging

IGN has the news that the Wii version of Twilight Princess has been retooled to allow you to swing Link's sword. The bow and arrow has been moved to the 'B' button, alleviating one of the big complaints hands-on users had at E3. From the article: "Miyamoto felt that that shooting the arrow with the D-pad was too difficult, and the B button allows for quicker and easier shooting. It's unclear if the game will require the new control scheme or if players will be able to chose between different methods of control. Nintendo Dream closed off by asking Miyamoto to name the version of Zelda he personally prefers. The master game maker said that he'd play the Wii version, but added that both versions will be fun."

Comments

Does this mean....

[shadwwulf]

that you'll have to spin in your chair to do the higher level spin attack?

Start stocking up on the Dramamine!

Re:Does this mean....

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Buy stock in the makers of Dramamine. 2. Release Zelda for the Wii, requiring users to spin incessantly. 3. ??? 4. Profit!

Re:Does this mean....

[GriffinDodd]

Ok now this is getting interesting...

If one player can operate more than one controller we can have them strapped to our hands and feet for some virtual Tekken - oh yeah!!!! Invite your friends over and you can compete against each other in non-contact violence - sweet!!!!

Although I can see emergency rooms full of over-zealous gamers with all kinds of injuries through rapid contact with standard living room objects.

Also, you gotta know that Nintendo are stocking up on replacement controllers - how many of those things are going to end up in splintered pieces.

Re:Does this mean....

[Kagura]

This is just the less-confusing of two related Zelda announcements, the other being that the GameCube version will also, somehow, include sword-swinging.

In other news, GC controller manufacturers' stock prices inexplicably rose 5000%. More news at 10.

Re:Does this mean....

[Anonymous Coward]

No. It just means you have to get off your lazy ass to play the game.

Why wouldn't it?

[stevencbrown]

I can't believe there was ever a stage where the wiimote wasn't a sword swing!!

what's the point of coming up with a unique control system, then just using it like a conventional controller?

Does Red Steel not have something pretty weak too - i.e. you swing the wiimote, but the sword on screen swings in a standard way, regardless of how you actually swung the remote?

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[DarkJC]

The problem with creating a system where the sword reflects the user motion of the remote precisely was explained in a previous article I read. It could be open to tons of abuse, and mainly people just flailing the wiimote about, scoring hits as they swing randomly. I think for the system in Red Steel, they were aiming for something with more strategy involved, as to where you hit and when to parry, etc. If the user had complete control, I don't think it'd be much of a challenge.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[UbuntuDupe]

I can't believe there was ever a stage where the wiimote wasn't a sword swing!!

Actually, I believe (someone has a link?) that the issue wasn't whether Zelda would have you swinging the Wiimote as a sword, but to what exent you would do so. They originally wanted all swinging to be done through the Wiimote, but then found that it tires you too quickly, so they just constrained it to "special" sorts of attacks, or something like that.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[ZakuSage]

Perhaps they couldn't get it to work well until now?

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Red Steel not have something pretty weak too - i.e. you swing the wiimote, but the sword on screen swings in a standard way, regardless of how you actually swung the remote?

I haven't played Red Steel, but from my understanding it was initially designed so that your swing would be translated to a "canned" sword swing (horizontal, vertical, diagonal, or what not) where speed and direction were controlled. I have heard that Ubisoft is reworking the system to be more free form but the exact details are not known; I would still expect to see a limited number (possibly 10-100+) of attacks but that a greater variation would allow for a much more intuitive feel. For example Quick, Average, Power attacks in each of 8 directions for a possible 24 attacks; flicking your wrist is a quick attack, a minor swing is an Average attack and a Big swing is a power attack (having 24 varieties of attacks is a lot considering what is possible on a standard controller).

As for Zelda ...

I expect that every detail of controll is being tried in several ways; everyone who has worked on Zelda in the past has focused on making it one of the easiest games to controll, I wouldn't be surprised if they have tried an insane number of controll schemes with TP.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[timster]

It could be open to tons of abuse, and mainly people just flailing the wiimote about, scoring hits as they swing randomly.

So, why don't people do that in real sword fights?

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Solra Bizna]

So, why don't people do that in real sword fights?

Because real people in real sword fights are fighting other real people who would take advantage. Not to mention the fact that a real sword is a LOT heavier than a Wiimote...

-:sigma.SB

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[timster]

So you don't believe somebody could come up with a swordfighting AI good enough to take advantage of random flailing? It doesn't seem too hard to me.

And sure, a sword is heavier than a wiimote, but that doesn't matter TOO much. Mario can only jump so high no matter how hard I push the button; it wouldn't be a problem if the character inside the game had limited speed or strength.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you don't believe somebody could come up with a swordfighting AI good enough to take advantage of random flailing? It doesn't seem too hard to me.

Excellent news. When do you think you'll have it finished?

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Rydia]

Then you have a problem where the user is entering a command and nothing is happening. That is about the worst thing you can possibly do with video game controls- it frustrates the user, adds a barrier to immersion, and puts the AI at a distinct advantage.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Sigma 7]

So, why don't people do that in real sword fights?

For one, it leaves you vulnerable to attack. Unless you are doing some very blatent feigning (i.e. you know what you're doing), a semi-experienced swordsman would just hit you in an area not protected by your sword. Alternativly, it just takes one well-placed attack that a parry doesn't have much effect (or even worse, the attacker takes control of your blade so that a parry does not work.)

Next, flailing your sword about tends to exert fatigue. You don't want that.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Knuckles]

That's all true, but I don't see why the same reasons wouldn't hold for the wiimote.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Frizzle Fry]

Unless you are doing some very blatent feigning (i.e. you know what you're doing), a semi-experienced swordsman would just hit you in an area not protected by your sword.

That's why Link has a shield.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[CastrTroy]

How is that any different from somebody buying a rapidfire controller and holding the button down for the entire game? sure, you may be able to get them from behind, but if they spin around at the same time, they would probably be able to accomplish the same thing. Besides, most of the difficult characters in Zelda shoot at you from afar, and doesn't help to flail around like mad.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[timster]

No, I don't think so. If the user is just flailing, they aren't paying any attention anyway. If they are paying attention, then they can get used to the feel of the controls. If they are looking at the screen, then they can see what is happening, just like I can see when Mario is up against a wall and easily understand why pushing right isn't doing anything.

I still don't understand why people claim that you couldn't have a swordfighting game for the Wiimote because people would just flail around. This is easily countered with decent game design, just like button-mashing in fighting games was. Honestly, I don't understand your comment at all, because a limitation on the speed of the in-game sword movement doesn't create a situation where "nothing is happening".

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[jounihat]

Die by the Sword?

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[DavidTC]

A danger of just flailing randomly that your sword will be intercepted and flipped away from you, or hitting their sword wrong and it just flying out of your hands without them even intending it. Or it will get caught at a weird angle, not actually hurting anything, but leaving it trapped. Or that you'll sprain your wrist if it's a broadsword.

The point of swordfighting, in case people aren't aware of it, is to stop their sword from hitting you, not to, really, hit them. Hitting them is secondary. It's like riding a motorcycle...the main point is to not fall over...while you're not doing that, then you can move from point A to point B. Flailing wildly is akin to operating the throttle before sitting on the bike, in an attempt to get there faster. Um, no.

Even people with no skill at swordfighting can beat people who flail randomly. Just keep backing up, wait for them to do some really stupid move, and slash them while they're recovering. At least, that's what I would do. If you can't back up...jump on them. It's nearly impossible for an unskilled person to kill someone with a sword while wrestling with them, they don't have the leverage to cause any damage.

Disclaimer: I don't actually know anything about swordfighting, but I do know some stuff about physics and how the human body works.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[AvitarX]

I doubt the AI can compete with a truly endless range of attacks like in real life.

Also, try swinging a sword that weighs many pounds over and over, now try it with a Wii mote, One is fatiguing, the other boring.

Sword swinging may be the obvious use for a wii-mote, but it may not be fun. I think the non-obvious uses are where the fun will be anyway.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[miro f]

you really should mention you take no responsibility for injuries caused following your advice...

I smell a lawsuit...

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[MadUndergrad]

I take it you've never fenced. A foil isn't much heavier than a wiimote, and the center of mass is very close to the guard. Random flailing is possible, and it's one of the worst ideas ever in the history of swordfighting. Trust me, random flailing is not an advantage. Any decent opponent or AI can easily see the back-and-forth pattern that "random" flailing is sure to use and strike at the right moment.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[DavidTC]

Well, if you don't know anything about swordfighting, obviously your best bet is to not get in a swordfight.

However, if you find yourself in one, you still shouldn't flail around randomly. If they are, then remain calm and just hit their side with the sword, edge on, when they are recovering from a particularly silly flail, like having their sword pointed down and slightly backwards, which will eventually happen if they just start waving it around like loons.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Knuckles]

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say (well, except with swords weighing "many pounds"), but what does it have to do with my question?

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[delinear]

I still don't understand why people claim that you couldn't have a swordfighting game for the Wiimote because people would just flail around. This is easily countered with decent game design, just like button-mashing in fighting games was. Honestly, I don't understand your comment at all, because a limitation on the speed of the in-game sword movement doesn't create a situation where "nothing is happening".

I can see what he means - with a standard controller there is a kind of detachment when the user hits a button and a sword swings, or even when a user moves the analog pad in a certain direction at a certain speed to vary the speed/strength/direction of the on-screen attack. The detachment means the user doesn't instantly notice that the on-screen attack may be slightly differently paced or aimed than their own attack.

Now consider your example - if you have a limitation on the speed of the in-game sword, it's going to be much more noticable if the user swings their wiimote and even a fraction of a second later the sword completes its own arc. Similarly if a player makes a lightning-fast jab with the wiimote and their character executes a painfully slow version on-screen, you lose the instant, rewarding feedback of using the wiimote as a real sword.

Another route may be to mimic the movements and actions of the wiimote on-screen in real time, but implement the fatigue bar the other way round. In other words, you can swing away like a madman and the sword will track your movements and speed, but the on-screen opponent will become faster in relation to you, until you reach a point where your character is exhausted and the opponent is relatively so fast that your attacks have no chance.

This would mean the user can have their instant feedback and make the occasion quick, opportunistic attack, but it would also force them to play more strategically and not wear out their character, to play defensively and conserve energy and look for openings in the opponent's attack. Might work?

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Phisbut]

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say (well, except with swords weighing "many pounds")

From several articles in Wikipedia

• Gladius (roman short sword) : 3 pounds
• Jian (chinese double-edged sword) : 2 pounds
• Arming sword (Middle Ages knight's sword) : 2.5 pounds
• Side-sword (Renaissance descendant of the arming sword) : 2.5 pounds
• Grosses messer (German sword) : 3 pounds
• Claymore (Scottish medieval two-handed sword) : 5.5 pounds
• Zweihänder (German medieval two-handed sword) : 6 to 11 pounds
• Shiavona (Italian Renaissance sword) : 2.5 pounds

Depending on one's definition of "many pounds", and on what is used in the game, swinging 3 to 5 pounds can feel like "many pounds" (And I don't even want to try an 11 pounds Zweihänder, although it's gotta be hurtin' when you're on the receiving part of the blow)

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Phisbut]

I take it you've never fenced. A foil isn't much heavier than a wiimote, and the center of mass is very close to the guard.

Not all swords are designed as foils are, and a fun sword-fight game wouldn't use foils (unless it's a fencing game). Foils are a thrusting type of sword, meaning that you can only really hurt your opponent if the tip of the sword penetrates. Most combat swords are side-swords, meaning the edges and the tip are sharp, and you can both cut with the side of the sword or thrust with the tip of the sword. Those swords require a hard blade and are heavier than a foil.

The best you could do while random flailing with a foil is whip people around.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[MadUndergrad]

A sabre isn't much different in weight than a foil, a little heavier, and it does utilize the edge of the weapon. Flailing is still a bad strategy. And anyhow, flailing becomes a worse strategy the heavier and more massive a weapon becomes. It becomes easier to dodge and you have longer to counterattack.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Knuckles]

I know, that's what I meant. 2-3 pounds is not usually called "many"*, and the others really are outliers. And from my experience in Ocarina or Time (rather short fights) and Tai Chi sword (IRL) I can't imagine that it would be a problem to swing the wiimote for a few minutes. Heck, many not too fit people easily can play tennis for an hour.

Re:Why wouldn't it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have a /. account, but if I did I would score this comment +16 FTW.
This is the karmic inverse of a GNAA post.
-e

My Arm

[MindStalker]

My poor poor arm. I don't actually Want to be Link. Holding a sword or even a very lightweight version of one and using it effectivly take lots of practice of strength most gamers don't have. Hey maybe this will be the next DDR, will we see Twilight Princess in Gym?

Re:My Arm

[wuie]

Never underestimate the arm/hand strength of a lonely gamer.

Re:My Arm

[bladesjester]

Swords aren't actually that bad. Most one hand and hand and a half swords made for actual use top out at about 5lbs with most of those being around the 3lb range. Two handed swords can creep up to 8-10lbs (with a few, like the kwan do - a type of pole sword, being really heavy), but the high end of the scale isn't that common.

Prolonged use can be an issue, but for bursts of less than an hour it's not much of a problem at all. Unlike what most people think, using a blade is generally as much about finess and timing as it is about force, and you tend to use your full body instead of just your arm.

Granted, I'm a little bigger than your typical geek, but I've trained people who were 105lbs or so and it didn't take them all that long to build up the necessary strength and endurance.

Re:My Arm

[masklinn]

My poor poor arm. I don't actually Want to be Link. Holding a sword or even a very lightweight version of one and using it effectivly take lots of practice of strength most gamers don't have.

I, for one, like that. It may allow me to build strength without getting out of my mother's basement!

Re:My Arm

[thatguywhoiam]

I, for one, like that. It may allow me to build strength without getting out of my mother's basement!

Something tells me you already have one oversized arm....

Re:My Arm

[szembek]

What the hell are these people training for?

Re:My Arm

[frosty_tsm]

I do Aikido bokken and Iaido (sword drawing), and I agree: swords aren't all that heavy, especially if you are using the whole body correctly. Granted, in Iaido it's switching between 1 and 2 hands on a 3 lb sword.

What I've found to be worse than the weight is if it's not balanced well (like some of the cheap training ones). It's nothing to add another pound right at the grip, but add a couple of extra ounces at the tip and everything (technique and energy) gets messed up. Since the Wii controller is just a controller (and not 3 feet long), then this isn't really an issue.

Re:My Arm

[mrcdeckard]

An in depth discussion of the mechanics of sword fighting on slashdot . . . could it get any more stereotypical?

At least it wasn't in terms of die . . .

mr c

Re:My Arm

[twistedsymphony]

I can see it now... the hand gesture for masterbation now becomes the hand gesture for playing with your Wii... oh... wait...

Re:My Arm

[chicago2004]

God forbid you get off the couch and exercise your body. Oh wait, this IS Slashdot.

Re:My Arm

[krakelohm]

Damn crushed the wiimote again.

Re:My Arm

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever tried playing Mike Tyson's Punchout with the power glove? I have one. It does not take long before your arm gets tired.

Noooooooo!!!

[laxcat]

Please, please, please no! I don't want to swing the damn sword, I want Link to swing it! I'm hoping this is just an option, not a required control scheme.

Then again, this is IGN. Maybe they misinterperted "absolutely not" as "maybe," as per usual

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[clydemaxwell]

Why are you even considering buying the Wii, then? Get the gamecube version.
I mean, did you think it was just a glorified lightgun? The wii will require interactivity!

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[earbenT]

The wiimote is a glorified lightgun (or rather, a glorified pointing stick).

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

People who say that really do know nothing about the Wii or lightguns...

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[laxcat]

Interactivity, yes! I've loved all the Wiimote functionality I've heard about so far for this version. But I just don't think motion replicating sword play is a good idea, in any game, and especially in a Zelda title where that sword really gets flying sometimes. It has the potential to wreck one of the best sword fighting systems around (if the fighting engine is indeed based off Wind Waker still, not to metion the excelent legacy of the N64 titles).

If its a simple matter of gestures that initiate cirtain moves, then I might be fine with it. (Maybe.) But a 1:1 sword motion replication would be simply disasterous.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[voice_of_all_reason]

Ah, the convoluted mantras of a nintendo fanboy...

The wii is the revolution, comrade! Backwards compatability to the NES! Everyone is welcome! Use either controller! It's open to all users! Family friendly games as well as more mature content! Online! The entire userbase will be satisfied... but use the fucking wiimote or I'll gut you like a fish!!!

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[The MAZZTer]

Do you know how heavy swords are? The Wiimote is this little plastic thing. Deal.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[laxcat]

I don't complain because I'd be adverse to the exercise. I'm adverse to the idea of replacing a time tested, awesome combat system with a gimicky, shitty one.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[Edgewize]

The Wii controller is never used as a 1:1 motion replication like you see in the advertising trailers. The amount of motion you need to put in is very small; you can leave your hands by your sides or in your lap or wherever. Of course, you're still welcome to flail around if that's what you really want to do.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[_xeno_]

How often do you actually swing the sword in the Zelda games? You're not constantly swinging the thing, assuming you're any good. You're going to be doing a few flicks every once in a while.

Zelda is more about solving puzzles than beating up enemies. I somehow doubt that you'll find flicking the Wiimote every couple of minutes to be a big deal.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[knight37]

Never underestimate the laziness of a gamer. BAD Nintendo, BAD BAD BAD!

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[ElleyKitten]

They'll still have the traditional combat system in the Gamecube version. Personally, I'm waiting until there's reviews of the finalized combat systems and test systems in game stores for me to try before I decide which one to buy.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[earbenT]

The wiimote's particular application of infrared technology still makes it functionally similar to a lightgun.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[7Prime]

I dunno, man, I just started a brand new game of WW last night, and went through the whole sword-fighting tutorial. I'm starting to see why Nintendo would want to move away from that, the whole button combos thing is starting to feel almost as confusing as a Metal Gear Solid control setup. Now thankfully WW is a fairly easy game, at least on the action end of things, so you're really not required to memorize all the different sword slashes, but if you really wanted to play with them while fighting enemies, it's a real pain in the ass. I mean, even simple things like whether to do a simple sword slash, a jab, an overhead slash, or a jumping slash gets hard to remember, and usually the button scheme has little to do with the actual movement, so you pretty much have to memorize it, which means it'll take a half a second or so to recall how to do it, and in the middle of a nice sword battle, you don't have time for that. I think swordplay with the Wiimote should be much more tactile, the gestures will be much more representative of the actual sword motions than simply hitting a combination of buttons, so sword dueling should be much more fun and involved this time around.

Fatigue shouldn't be a problem. Zelda games tend to only have intense sword battles in short spurts, most of the series is about problem solving, anyway. I could imagine fatigue being an issue in, say, a Wii-based Ninja Giaden, but even then, the controller is very lightweight, and as other people have pointed out, even real-life sword technique requires very little wrist motion. A few degrees of wrist motion translates to a few feet at the other end of the sword. I did about a semester of fencing... I was pretty bad at it, but it's really not a very tiring sport, in the least. The most tiring thing about it is probably the weight of the protective gear.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[7Prime]

Very lightweight... at least good ones anyway. Modern courtswords are extremely light and have proven to be the more effective, historically, than broadswords and other two-handed blades. It's a myth that broadswords were extremely heavy... sure, they're heavier than rapiers, but even a Scottish Claymoor isn't really all that hard to handle. You always see Hollywood making it look like they were hard to even lift... that's a total myth, they were not very heavy. People use to battle with them for hours on end...

Now we're talking about a 6", hollow piece of plastic... really really light.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[szembek]

What's WW?

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[91degrees]

Nobody knows anything about the Wii.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[myz24]

He's referring to Wind Waker.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

[The Legend of Zelda:] Wind Waker

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[Fozzyuw]

How often do you actually swing the sword in the Zelda games?

For anal-retintive people like me... quite a lot. Have you ever noticed how much grass there is to cut in these games?

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[voice_of_all_reason]

Actually, I always stay one generation behind. Just picked up an original xbox and gamecube to supplement my ps2 this year. This way I can find out which version will be the best in advance (a la Resident Evil 4) and buy accordingly.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see it now. Imagine a boy staying up at night playing Zelda. Arms rapidly moving to all sides in his lap.

Mother walks in: "Hello son, staying up late toni....". Turns around quickly and exists the room.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[Kelbear]

I remember in the SNES Zela, there was not a single available patch of grass I hadn't cut at least once. It was my top priority everytime the game opened up a new area. The rest of the game was a distraction from my lawn mowing.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[KDR_11k]

A lightgun that works on all TVs duct taped to a bunch of accellerometers.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[3choTh1s]

Zelda may be more about solving puzzles but while doin that you're always faced with beating up enemies. I mean it's one thing to solve a mystery, but it's another to do it while facing down a horde o' the badies. and that's the way it's always been

Plus how long do you take to beat up the bosses. Maybe it's just me but it takes me more than a few flicks.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[miro f]

of course in WW it doesn't matter if you do a jab, overhead slash, sideways slash, whatever. And all that ends up heppening is you just mash b until the enemy is dead.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[7Prime]

That's what I'm saying. Now, Nintendo can make enemy AIs that require more precision in swordplay than was required in WW. I don't know if will happen this time around, since most of the game was originally designed for a traditional, button mashing system, but in the future, when the Zelda titles are exclusively Wii, I would hope we would start to see some of this.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[geminidomino]

I freely admit, I don't know anything about lightguns. They've always fascinated me, especially how they don't work with LCD tvs... I don't know how they work, only guesses.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[AmberBlackCat]

Well if you're going to be a big baby about it then fine.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[SkippyDoorknob]

The Wii controller doesn't use the same sort of technology as a traditional light gun. It works on any type of TV.

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[geminidomino]

Well yeah, and I get the concept of how positioning tech works. :)

Re:Noooooooo!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one think that the sword swinging action and the "interactivity" is a good thing for this up coming generation...I mean, think about it, look at the little kids growing up and always playing games all the time...They get really fat, and the new generation gets to lazy to do anything with there lives. This will get more and more people up and doing thing and helping with there development.

I'm interested but I don't know.

[kinglink]

The wiimote being swung like a sword does sound good, but I don't know if it'll work with Zelda's feel. I'm sure they've tested it and it feels more natural than the B button, but I hope both options are there still.

The problem comes in that Zelda is not an FPS. I'm sure there's not a way to move your shield up for the block except a button. But maybe the sword swinging will work. However no matter how you swing the sword, Link will only have a couple attack animations. I hope it'll work, and if so that's great but I want a little more indepth Zelda for this type of thing. Actually a bigger problem that will come up with the system is will it allow lefties to hold the wiimote in the left hand and the nunchuck attachment in the right hand. If they allow that it'll be gravy.

What I'd really like to see is a game where you are in FPS mode but the entire game is Oblivion style, swords and shields, some bows, all controlled by the motion. that means you can hold the sword in one hand and swing it, but at the same time guard. And the best part would be the shield should basically cover your view, and hit detection on the shield should be spot on. So if a guy swings from the left, and your shield is on the right you can block it, but at the same time you can attack back, however it wouldn't be a strong attack in game, no matter how you swing your wiimote.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[another_fanboy]

Actually a bigger problem that will come up with the system is will it allow lefties to hold the wiimote in the left hand and the nunchuck attachment in the right hand

You'd probably have to swing the controller with the left hand anyways, seeing as Link himself is left-handed.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[Valthan]

...he is? I always made it so that the sword was in his right hand...

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[SScorpio]

I'm sure there's not a way to move your shield up for the block except a button.

From the E3 demo a sensor in the nunchuck attachment sensed acceleration and thrusting it out caused you to block.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[Scoth]

Some of the earlier games used sprite-flipping for certain directions, so it was hard to tell which hand was "official". The Zelda 2 manual makes reference to the left-handedness, and the 3D games have always had Link left-handed.

Actually, even though I'm right handed, I've played so much Zelda that the few times I've had the occasion to do it, I've automatically picked up swords with my left hand.

Yeah, I'm a Zelda geek. Proud of it too :) My fiancee gets sick of listening to the music though.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[LincolnQ]

What I'd really like to see is a game where you are in FPS mode but the entire game is Oblivion style, swords and shields, some bows, all controlled by the motion. that means you can hold the sword in one hand and swing it, but at the same time guard. And the best part would be the shield should basically cover your view, and hit detection on the shield should be spot on. So if a guy swings from the left, and your shield is on the right you can block it, but at the same time you can attack back, however it wouldn't be a strong attack in game, no matter how you swing your wiimote.

This concept was actually a project I worked on called Swordplay last year in school. Unfortunately, we didn't get to do too much with the physics (not enough time) but we did demonstrate the basic control scheme of sword-and-shield, as well as bow-and-arrow. It's played in a VR cave with two 6-DOF controllers for the left and right hand, and it worked really well. Unfortunately it's not an experience that most people can have, because most people don't have a VR cave, but we're hoping the Wii at least gives people similar experiences.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[kinglink]

Well the problem is allowing swapable control schemes. It won't matter in Zelda itself since the swinging of the wiimote is important, but in a FPS style game it will matter much more (at least if my version gets made)

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[enharmonix]

Yeah, I'm a Zelda geek. Proud of it too :) My fiancee gets sick of listening to the music though.

A geek with a fiancée? If you submitted this to the editors, you could get on the front page!

Kidding aside, I'm a Zelda geek too, and my wife had never even heard of it (well, she remembered the NES version), then one day I decided to play through Windwaker for the third or fourth time, and she laughed and said, "Ooh. Cute! Let me try!" Now she's playing through Windwaker for the second time, and our 20-month old son even stops what he's doing, sits down, and watches quietly (and that's something!). Anyway, to me, Zelda good.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[Scoth]

Sadly, mine hasn't had much of an interest in Zelda. She did just get herself addicted to WoW though, which is sorta-kinda Zeldaish. So maybe she'll give it another try. She always claims she doesn't have the coordination for it, but she's managing Wow fine.

For me, Zelda 2 was the first NES game I ever played, with LoZ not too far behind. Good times, those were. Good times.

"Ask Error about the palace"

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd probably have to swing the controller with the left hand anyways, seeing as Link himself is left-handed.

Yes, and you'll have to hold various items as you gather them in the game, because that's what Link is doing.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[mattcoz]

Yeah, with sprite flipping it did change hands, but he was left handed in 3 of 4 directions.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[enharmonix]

Sadly, mine hasn't had much of an interest in Zelda. She did just get herself addicted to WoW though, which is sorta-kinda Zeldaish. So maybe she'll give it another try.

My wife was never really interested in games either. When we were dating, she got pretty sick and was confined to the couch all day long, so I came over with some DVDs and my GameCube so she wouldn't die of boredom. She ignored the GameCube the whole time it was there until one day I started playing Windwaker. Zelda's good because it's one of those games that anybody can play, even if they've never played, and do reasonably well.

For me, Zelda 2 was the first NES game I ever played, with LoZ not too far behind. Good times, those were. Good times.

Man, that game was hard. The first was hard enough, but I did eventually beat it (once). I've never beaten Zelda 2, and I think I've played it more times than the original, but I've never made it past the 6th (maybe 5th?) palace.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[Scoth]

Yeah, 6th palace is a doozy. 5th palace isn't all that hard, but it's a bit of a maze. Both the 6th palace and Golden Palace are some of the best examples of NES level design I've seen.

In the last few years I've tried beating Z2 in various interesting ways. Probably the hardest was when I limited myself to the four magic and heart containers that Link comes with. The game itself wasn't hard, but there's one of the final bosses that you have to use all four magic containers on to even make it vulnerable, and it kills you on the second hit. So, no Life. I spent probably two months just trying to beat that guy, but I did finally make it. Next I'm thinking about using some emu's built-in cheat device to lock the exp levels at 1. Does it still count as cheating if you make it harder? :)

Dunno, maybe I'm an oddball, but my favorite two Zelda games are the two black sheep: Zelda 2 and Majora's Mask.

Re:I'm interested but I don't know.

[enharmonix]

Everybody gives Majora's Mask such a hard time too. I admit it could have been better. That fish guy you play who's also a rock star? That was dumb. And it seemed short with only four real dungeons, but it was a good game. Those dungeons are about 3 times as big as the ones in OoT, so only 4 is really like 10 or 12 dungeons in OoT (and there are quite a few mini-dungeons on top of that). The idea of having 3 "days" to beat the game or start over -- that was pressure... especially that very first day in Clock Town. Now that you mention it, I do wish they had a hard mode like they do in Shadow of the Colossus. I played OoT: Master Quest, but it was only tougher puzzles and most of them didn't make any sense. I want to fight somebody that can fight back, not shoot a slingshot at a cow in a wall. I don't get it.

Does it still count as cheating if you make it harder? :)

Not in my book. I'm playing CoD2 in Veteran mode. 3-4 shots from small round (Luger, MP40) = death. 1-2 shots from larger rounds (rifles, MP44, MG-42) = death. 1 anti-tank (rocket, 88mm, etc.) or a head shot = death. Makes you think twice about poking your head out from cover. And no quicksave in that game :)

Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[ifrag]

Employee1:"Hey that motion senitive remote sorta looks like a sword doesn't it?"
Employee2:"Wow, you're right, it kinda does look like one..."
Employee1:"We should let the player attack with it!"
Employee2:"And we could include some sword decal stickers in the box!"

Seriously I would have been more surprised if they didn't think of doing this. What I'm finding odd is it sounds like there is gonna be a gamecube version as well. Doesn't that sorta defeat the whole "killer app" idea? All they need to do is publish that new metroid on the GC and people will be questioning exactly why they even to get a Wii.

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[KDR_11k]

Yes but how many people actually own a Gamecube?

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[jizziknight]

What I'm finding odd is it sounds like there is gonna be a gamecube version as well.

It was orignally planned to be GC only. IIRC once it got pushed back a time or two, they decided to add in some enhancements if it was played on the Wii. Then eventually decided to make a seperate Wii version and take advantage of the Wii's capabilities. Now it appears that the main focus is on the Wii version.

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[masklinn]

21 million gamecubes sold as of June 30, 2006.

(versus 24 million Xbox, by the way, I can't believe anyone still brands the Xbox as anything but a failure as well)

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[Scoth]

When I first heard they were going to make a separate GC and Wii version, and not just have the GC version work on the Wii, I was concerned they wouldn't make full use of the Wii's capabilities since they wouldn't want the games too different. It sounds like they are going to use the Wii controls well, but I wonder whether there will be much graphical difference. Even if it's a particularly nice-looking GC game, I'd hate to think it was held back by the requirement to run on the GC.

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[jizziknight]

I would bet on them looking rather similar. If there's any improvement on the Wii, it would simply be because of the Wii's more powerful GPU. However, I wouldn't be totally surprised if they did make some graphical enhancements for the Wii version.

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[jizziknight]

That depends on how you define failure. I understand that Nintendo made a decent profit off of the GC. That doesn't sound like a failure to me. I'm not sure about the Xbox. I don't really follow it.

If you define failure as how many are sold, well, we'd need the actual number of PS2s sold (not shipped) and how many weren't replacing a broken PS2 (because, honestly, buying a new PS2 because your old one broke doesn't really count as there's still only one being used).

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[Knuckles]

I'm not sure about the Xbox. I don't really follow it.

I read recently on slashdot that they lost 4 billion, but you'll have to verify it yourself :)

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[Blakey Rat]

Xbox sales have gone according to Microsoft's plan exactly. If anything, a bit better than Microsoft planned.

If you say "we'll sell 20m Xboxes in the first generation" and actually sell 24m, that can't be considered a failure by any definition of the word. Microsoft isn't stupid; they knew they couldn't beat Sony in a single generation.

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[grumbel]

Even if it's a particularly nice-looking GC game, I'd hate to think it was held back by the requirement to run on the GC.

I would expect some sharper textures, maybe some more effects here and there, but nothing too big, the Wii is after all not that far away from the GC in terms of power, so even with fully using its power, it can't do miracles. From what I have seen of Zelda it is at the moment however actually the best looking Wii game, so I wouldn't fear the visuals to much.

Controls on the other side could turn into a big issue, Wii launch is not that far away and Nintendo still doesn't seem to have fully figured out what to actually use the Wiimote for, a little gymicky here a little gymicky there, but nothing fully convincing. Especially since it looks like the Wii version will not allow Gamecube controls it could get really ugly, imagine the best launch title ruined by the Wii controller, that wouldn't create good press.

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[KDR_11k]

Considering that all the other console makers either took the market by storm or disappeared a gen or two later that is quite a low goal.

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[7Prime]

I bet there will be some graphical improvements for the Wii version. The bottom line is, Nintendo is ONLY releasing a GC version because they said they would over a year ago, and they don't want to piss off the gaming community... but Zelda is a Wii launch title, and they want to use it to sell Wii's. For that reason (and the fact that they've had almost a year since the GC version was finished), I think you can be pretty sure that the Wii version will probably be more polished, have a higher polygon count, and may have some added content. Nintendo REALLY wants you to spend that extra $200 for the Wii version, and Zelda being probably their biggest franchise this side of Mario, is going to sell Wii's.

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[masklinn]

Considering that they officially lost $4b, this means that they lost $200/console.

God damn it, they could've given tamagotchis and $10 and got a bigger market out of it!

Re:Gamecube and Wii versions!?

[Blakey Rat]

You're either missing, or ignoring, my point. If the console is doing better than it was planned to do, then it's a success and not a failure. That's pretty much all there is to it.

Not a real sword, folks.

[dmwst30]

The Wii controller isn't a sword, there's not that much weight extended several feet from your arm. It's not going to take physical training for most people to use this. More importantly, given the motion detection and location detection described so far, a small twitch of your wrist should be enough to move the cursor across the screen.

So while you CAN pretend to really sword fight, you don't NEED to do so. Nothing to complain about here.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[DarkJC]

That's quite a fitting new Slashdot meme there. "Nothing to complain about here, please move along."

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[xenocide2]

Try swinging your arm in circles for about a minute. Now try to justify how your arm, which is likely incredibly tired now, will be better able to hold up to playing Zelda sword fighting for 45 minutes to an hour. Sure, you can take short breaks, but:
a) who wants to stop playing Zelda?
b) zelda's design pratically requires 45 minutes of effort to accomplish anything significant. getting halfway through the water temple in ocarina for the first time, for example, was no mean feat of exploration and ingeniuity.
c) we really have no idea exactly how the swordfighting will be done, but if it is going to be something twitchy, it's not what consumers will be expecting. I guess this is a case of getting what you wished for.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[Morinaga]

Kind of like taking my gamecube controller and doing the same thing while pressing a button?

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[dmwst30]

Ok, I'm game. I swung my arm in circles for about a minute. I don't feel ANYTHING. I'm not tired. Are you, when you did this?

You missed my point, you're not swinging heavy weights in large circles with the Wii controller. It seems to be more like a mouse, except you flick your wrist, or forearm, or entire arm, or entire body, to move it. You don't have to do the exact same motion each time, so you won't wear yourself out even if you did have to move it often.

You don't spend an hour of Zelda sword fighting; there are long stretches without battles, and even dungeons have a large element of exploration and puzzle solving. This isn't a FPS.

No, we don't know exactly what the swordfighting will be done. But I trust the game designers to actually try playing the game before release, and probably for long stretches at a time (imagine!), so it probably be enjoyable to most people or it wouldn't ship.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[thatguywhoiam]

So while you CAN pretend to really sword fight, you don't NEED to do so. Nothing to complain about here.

I'm glad you are so confident! Myself, I think I'll actually wait and see how it turns out before I declare it an unqualified success.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[Coryoth]

Try swinging your arm in circles for about a minute. Now try to justify how your arm, which is likely incredibly tired now, will be better able to hold up to playing Zelda sword fighting for 45 minutes to an hour.

Because as we know it takes years of fitness training for, say, an orchestra conductor to manage to wave his baton continuously for the hour or three (depending on the performance really, some operas are rather lengthy) of a performance. I mean have you seen those guys? Nobody but extremely fit well toned people in their 20s can pull it off. Combine that with the fact that any session of Zelda is going to be continuous hack and slash effort through an endless supply of enemies (all that tedious exploration and puzzle solving and story has been done away with apparently) and yeah, I can see that it would just be brutal.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are you waving your arm around? Your wrist broken?

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[durnurd]

The Wii controller isn't a sword, there's not that much weight extended several feet from your arm.

A well-balanced blade will have the fulcrum of the weight very close to where you are holding it (i.e. the hilt). Not that this reduces the weight, but it certainly doesn't have the same torque effect of having weight far out there ~1 foot from the end of your arm. Assuming: sum of torque = 0 when static, fulcrum at your hand, weight on either end of sword is equal, this creates no need to clamp your fingers together to keep the sword up, as would be the case if there were several feet of metal pulling down on one end, and nothing at all counter-balancing it, as you seem to think. I'd say a wiimote and a sword are very similarily balanced, with a sword possibly weighing a few more pounds (but not very noticable, I should think, if the sword isn't comically heavy).

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[steveo777]

Very very good point. I'm getting sick of hearing about average geeks who are afraid of waving their hands around. If waving your hand about for 45 minutes gets you tired and sweaty, then get off the couch and start exercising! That's just pathetic. Hell, I'd encourage people to start weighting their remotes and build up some shoulder and forarm strength.

Also, good point about Zelda. It's not all hack-n-slash. But that definately is a fun aspect. I can't wait to start knocking moblins or whatever off those boars. Wild arm flailing in the living room! People will think you're watching football/soccor/rugby.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[Moofie]

Get back to me when you've actually tried it. Even better, just don't buy one. Problem solved.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[dmwst30]

Yes, a sword is counterbalanced, so at rest there's little need to hold the sword tightly. I don't think it's at all like holding an umbalanced metal stick out in front of me. The point is when you MOVE the Wii controller, it's very different from moving a freakin' sword. The torque produced from quickly moving them and changing directions is different, because of that weight distribution, which is the whole point of my original post.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[oGMo]

Because as we know it takes years of fitness training for, say, an orchestra conductor to manage to wave his baton continuously for the hour or three (depending on the performance really, some operas are rather lengthy) of a performance.

You may think you're joking, but I invite you to conduct a 3-hour concert sometime. It is anything but trivial, untiring movement. Yes, you get used to it, but it does a lot of stamina. Just because you see a guy with grey hair up there doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to conduct hours after your arm is in a sling.

That said, the motion used for Zelda is more likely to be a wrist-flicking type motion than a full-on swing, although perhaps it will be configurable. Either way, this could lead to RSI if they're not careful. Jury's still out on whether this all works.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[7Prime]

That would be true if using the Wiimote required anything like swinging your arms in circles... or even if REAL swordplay is anything like swinging your arms in circles. I've taken some fencing, and I can tell you, there's no swinging involved. The only swordplay that ever required any swinging at all were two-handed broadswords, and even then the slashing wasn't as obtuse as flailing. Look at Link, he's got a one-handed sword. Even the master sword, which is somewhat fashioned to look like a broadsword, is weilded as a light, one-handed sword.

A small little flick of the rist translates into a huge motion at the tip of the sword. There will be NO whole arm swinging (unless you're compelled to... which I could see once in a while being a bit fun).

Also, ever played Tennis? Now there's arm swinging, and the average match is at least a good 45 minutes... some have gone as long as 6 hours (Jimmy Conars' vs. Jim Courier, for instance). This is ping-pong, in comparison... a sport played by college students in lounges for hours on end. I don't think fatigue is going to be a problem.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[Coryoth]

Oddly enough was aware that conducting is not exactly trivial. It was, however, the best example that easily came to mind of someone managing arm movements for considerable periods of time without being uberfit. Yes moving your arms is tiring, but so is typing or playing the piano if you're doing it non-stop for 3 hours.

Re:Not a real sword, folks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, exactly. People should realize that getting tired is not really a terrible problem. I mean, I play music games nearly everyday, such as DDR, Beatmania and Drummania. And yes, these are tiring ones.
About DDR, it is quite clear. About Drummania, you can get sweaty within 30 minutes (yeah, just like a drummer...) and Beatmania can be painful for your fingers if you play much.
But is this a problem? Definitely not.
Was Konami sued for this exhausting experiences? No, as far as I know.

Sweaty games are good for you.

Odd final question

[y5]

Nintendo Dream closed off by asking Miyamoto to name the version of Zelda he personally prefers. The master game maker said that he'd play the Wii version, but added that both versions will be fun.

What? What kind of stupid question...? What did they expect him to say?

"I think I'd prefer the Gamecube version. Playing with the Wii controller just isn't intuitive - as a matter of fact, don't bother buying one. I wasted my time helping produce it, and it's embarrassing to me. Death, come quick come quick come quick..."

Re:Odd final question

[monopole]

Death, come quick come quick come quick...
Is there a Seppuku option for the Wimote?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harikari

Re:Odd final question

[HarvardAce]

Actually wasn't there a story on slashdot a few months ago where Miyamoto was basically saying that he sucked up the ending of wind waker? Granted, that was several years after its release, but he has at least been able to own up to some of his faults/failures more so than some other developers.

Re:Odd final question

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, what? I don't know anybody who didn't think that the ending of Wind Waker was awesome.

Re:Odd final question

[geminidomino]

You must have a very limited or easily impressed circle of Zelda-fan friends.

Re:Odd final question

[HarvardAce]

Wait, what? I don't know anybody who didn't think that the ending of Wind Waker was awesome.

By ending I meant the whole triforce hunt part -- do a little thing here, sail across the map, rinse, repeat, etc.

I actually had more time on this post, so I found the original story.

The Wii will play the GCN game

[psxman]

People screaming "NOOOO" should remember that the Wii plays GCN games. As I recall, the only difference between the two versions of TP is the control scheme, so all you'd be missing is the control scheme you don't like.

(this is assuming that the Wii version requires the sword-swinging, and doesn't merely have it as an option, in which case none of this matters)

Re:The Wii will play the GCN game

[Anonymous Coward]

It's also rumored that the Wii version will support widescreen displays and overall be better-looking (in some unspecified way).

Sword?

[dohzer]

Sword shmord! I want to be able to play the Wiimote like an ocarina!

Re:Sword?

[Scoth]

Well, there's always the old OoT glitch that lets you play anything like the ocarina:

http://www.jaytheham.com/zc/oot.php?page=ootmc018

Apparently Link plays a mean bow.

Re:Sword?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you play my wee mote like an ocarina?

Re:Sword?

[RyoShin]

While this was probably meant as funny, I would see it as being too far from a possibility, both in this and other games with musical instruments. With the speaker built into the remote, you would use the A, B, and D-pad buttons for notes, and actually hear it coming out near your hands.

Imagine using this kind of stuff with Guitar Hero.

Re:Sword?

[SEMW]

Not sure how spittle would affect the gyroscopes, though...

Re:Sword?

[dohzer]

Thanks for the link. Time to get my OoT cartridge back from the scoundrel I lent it to and try to play everything.

Re:Sword?

[Scoth]

If you haven't looked around OoT in awhile, you'll probably get a kick out of this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65739

Amazing what you find lurking around the dark corners of roms. Shame you need a GS to do it on the real thing (pain to put all the codes in, I've done it and it works but eh) but still fun with an emu.

All that swinging would be good practice

[Kawolski]

...for Trauma Center: Second Opinion.

*slash-slash-slash! ... stab!* "Doctor!"

Nintendo's not one to boast customizable controls

[Ultronator]

Usually when Nintendo makes a game, you can pretty much guarantee that the controls are gonna be set in stone. This is because they are one of the few companies that test the controls extensively and ensure that you're going to be getting the best gameplay experience with the controls they've defined. "Company A" giving you the ability to customize the controls is just saying, "Well, we're not really sure what will work best. Tell ya what...you decide!". The most customization you get with a zelda/nintendo game is the ability to equip an item to a specific button, or the occasional camera modes, which IMO is not the same thing as customizable controls.

Of course you're dealing with PC games, then customizable controls are a must.

Not again

[DrMrLordX]

I certainly hope the Wii Zelda title winds up being better than Die By The Sword. Ugh.

Re:Not again

[Anonymous Coward]

Die By The Sword was GENIUS! I remember playing 4 player ogre hockey, complete with full mouse control of the ogre's club, and I swear down that is the most fun I have EVER had playing a computer game! (And I play a lot of games). Granted, the control scheme takes more than the usual 5 seconds to get to grips with, but given a bit of intelligence, inside an hour you will be smashing that living puck down to the other end of the pitch amidst howls of maniacal laughter. Superb.

Re:Not again

[DrMrLordX]

It was amusing, but it was warped. The entire parry system was broken. A kobold could parry a giant if he managed to intercept the club properly.

Pretending your wii is a sword?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't we supposed to stop playing that game once we get older?

(when you get older, you pretend it's a light saber, better sound effects.)

Re:Pretending your wii is a sword?

[Anonymous Coward]

But.. How do you make it glow?

Re:Pretending your wii is a sword?

[rlwhite]

I prefer the to pretend it's a pump-loaded shotgun.

Normal swords not ok, but laserswords are?

[the_arrow]

In almost all threads discussing the Wiimote, there are quite a lot of people wanting a Jedi laser-sword swining game from LucasArts. But here many post are saying no to swinging a "real" sword with Link.

Re:Normal swords not ok, but laserswords are?

[Anonymous Coward]

Zelda is a puzzle-adventure game with some combat. Zelda fans probably don't want an emphasis on fighting. Star Wars, on the other hand, is all about kicking ass.

Second, lightsabers cut through (almost) anything without slowing down, making them suitable for the revolution (ugh, wii) controller. A real sword cuts in a few centimeters, blood and guts come out, the sword gets stuck, etc. It wouldn't work so well on the rev controller since it doesn't have the feedback capabilities to represent it. i.e. you can't stab someone and twist, you don't have the strength, but you can still make that motion with the controller and that's a disconnect. This has been discussed to death on /.

It also probably doesn't have the horsepower to do "realistic" damage simulation on a living creature, not a problem with lightsabers since they just leave a cauterised wound. This isn't a big deal with Zelda, since enemies tend to disappear in a puff of smoke if you beat them anyway.

On the other hand I think the revolution would be an excellent platform for an over-the-top Chainsaw Massacre game - hide the lack damage modelling with torrents of gore and give flesh zero chainsaw resistance :)

Re:Normal swords not ok, but laserswords are?

[freakmn]

I would venture to guess that it's because a normal sword is quite a bit heavier than a lightsaber. I think most people's arms couldn't take that much use of a large chunk of metal. Also, the adrenaline built up by repeatedly stabbing Jar-Jar would be enough to keep any geek going.

Yes, I know that the controller would be the same for both. I'm only adding this because my sig is frequently ignored, and people seriously respond to sarcasm.

Re:Normal swords not ok, but laserswords are?

[ScaryFroMan]

Yes, because, supposedly, a lightsaber cuts through everything, save another lightsaber. So you can swing to your heart's content, and not worry about coming in contact with something to throw you out of the immersion. A real sword is an entirely different matter.

Ambidextrous Link?

[the_crowing]

Has anyone ever noticed that Link is left-handed? I wonder if Nintendo is going to allow Link to hold the sword in either hand to match the players unidexterity? I'm not an experienced swordsmen by any means, but I think I would have a hard time playing a game that forced me to use my left hand for something like that since, like the majority of the population, I'm right handed. And I think it would be pretty awkward swinging my right arm and watching Link mirror my motion with his left.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[SQLGuru]

Inigo Montoya: You are wonderful.
Man in Black: Thank you; I've worked hard to become so.
Inigo Montoya: I admit it, you are better than I am.
Man in Black: Then why are you smiling?
Inigo Montoya: Because I know something you don't know.
Man in Black: And what is that?
Inigo Montoya: I... am not left-handed.
[Moves his sword to his right hand and gains an advantage]
Man in Black: You are amazing.
Inigo Montoya: I ought to be, after 20 years.
Man in Black: Oh, there's something I ought to tell you.
Inigo Montoya: Tell me.
Man in Black: I'm not left-handed either.
[Moves his sword to his right hand and regains his advantage]

Layne

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[mdielmann]

like the majority of the population, I'm right handed

Welcome to my world, you bastard! I have to use my off hand for shifting (I live in North America), I have to use the weaker muscles of my hand when inserting screws with a screwdriver, most can openers require that you turn them with your right hand (or turn the can upside down - that'll work!), my blackberry has the main control buttons by my fingers instead of by my thumb, the list goes on and on! But you have to use somewhat unusual actions when playing Link with the wii controller. My heart bleeds.
</pseudo-rant>

All kidding aside, you'd be surprised with the number of inconveniences left-handed people deal with every day. I trained myself to be somewhat ambidextrous to compensate for that, in those rare circumstances where I'd rather do it poorly with my right hand than do it with difficulty or danger with my left hand.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[andrewd18]

A-fricking-men. Preach it, brother.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[thatguywhoiam]

Welcome to my world, you bastard! I have to use my off hand for shifting (I live in North America)

There is an adaptor available for people like you; I believe it is called Britain.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[dctoastman]

I have to use the weaker muscles of my hand when inserting screws with a screwdriver

I wasn't aware that screwdrivers were specific to a given hand.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[brjndr]

Sounds like somebody needs to make a trip to the Leftorium.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[mdielmann]

Screws are generally harder to put in than to take out, so clockwise motion is the harder of the two. This means with your right hand you turn from a wrist-down orientation to a wrist-up orientation. It's opposite for your left hand. Having only one body, my tests have been empirical, but I find it equally easy to insert screws with my (weaker) right hand as it is with my (stronger) left hand. But I generally start with my left because it feels more right. I suppose I could get a torque-measuring machine, and see which of the motions can supply more torque, but all that will do is determine whether or not I can bitch about it. And I'd rather bitch.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[Anonymous Coward]

*Ask* yourself whether the Wii will actually be able to *tell* that you're left-handed.

Think about it. How could it possibly know? Only the Wiimote itself is sensitive to position; the offhand "nunchuck" is sensitive only to motion. Therefore the Wii cannot possibly know or care whether one is to the right of the other.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[the_crowing]

If you had read my comment more carefully you would have noticed that I'm clearly not complaining about being right-handed, nor am I proclaiming that I am at any sort of disadvantage over left-handed people. I'm simply trying to discuss the necessary, and interesting sub-features, that would have to be implemented to accomodate all users to make the game less awkward.

P.S. My Dad is left-handed. I am well aware of the inconvenience left-handed people face on a daily basis.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[StupiderThanYou]

Has anyone ever noticed that Link is left-handed?

Well, duh. Otherwise he'd be Recht.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[metaphorever]

From an IGN article on the Wii "In practice, regardless of game, you'll be able to play with either device in either hand. Miyamoto actually expects kids who've never played a game before to hold the remote in their left hand and the nunchuck in their right hand."
It is also possible that the dominant hand used will be stored systemwide with the sensetivity setting attatched to each controller

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider all of us that are right handed here - we still shift with our left hand and its not a problem.

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[delinear]

Just what I was thinking. Having always driven using my right hand to steer and left hand to switch gears, even the thought of doing it the other way around seems alien (plus, if you ever have to drive without power steering I have to imagine it's a lot more comfortable to use your strong arm for the wheel and your weaker arm for the easy task of gearing) - I don't think I've ever thought "Damn those Americans, they have it so easy with their reverse driving posture!"...

Re:Ambidextrous Link?

[Darby]

I suppose I could get a torque-measuring machine, and see which of the motions can supply more torque, but all that will do is determine whether or not I can bitch about it. And I'd rather bitch.

Well then the solution is simple. Measure the torque and if it comes out the right way, then bitch freely with supporting documentation. If it comes out the wrong way, then just ditch the evidence and you're right where you are now in regards to bitching ;-)

Hey Wait a second.

[Robot Randy]

I have TWO kids that play Zelda as well as a dog. Am I gonna have to make a "BattleBox" in my living room to keep the spectators safe???

(MOMMY! Billy slew Rover!!!)

Re:Hey Wait a second.

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

I've heard the expressions "sick as a dog" and "dog ugly" but "play Zelda as well as a dog" is new to me.

Re:Hey Wait a second.

[Robot Randy]

,

Sorry...

Re:Hey Wait a second.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have TWO kids that play Zelda as well as a dog.

You have dog that plays Zelda...?

Thoughts of Star Wars Dancing Through My Head

[Evil Closet Monkey]

Expect to be fighting Darth Vader soon enough, sweeping around with your Wii controler to block and parry his blows. Just make sure you don't record yourself and forget to take the tape out of the camcorder (same goes for Zelda).

Re:Thoughts of Star Wars Dancing Through My Head

[arigi]

Looks like the Star Wars Kid was really a prophet in his time.

Copy idea, but release first

[Anonymous Coward]

Dragon slaying swordsmanship is the main selling point for the upcoming Wii game Dragon Quest: Swords, and that entire game appears to be centered on this principle.

In Zelda, it seems like more of an add-on gimmick.

So kids, if you want to play swords, I suggest you wait for DQ: Swords.

Link's dominant hand

[ajgeek]

Link is left handed. For Zelda, which will probably have the wiimote in the right hand primarily, link will have to switch hands.

I'm sure, however, that they've thought of this. It's been a long time since the rest of the world has forced everyone to be right handed in real life. Games, however, are another story entirely.

If they're smart, they'll find a way to quickly and effectively invert the animations on link so he can be left or right handed to suit the player. Could you IMAGINE swinging left handed only to find link doing a mirror of you on screen?

I don't know about that

[Anonymous Coward]

From my experience as a fencer (I have fenced sabre for four years, and I just began fencing épée), just holding a blade in the en garde position can tire my arm. If I have not fenced for a while, my arms is sometimes tired after a mere 25-minute lesson. Although your are right about cuts not requiring one's full arm, most people have to be trained to cut with the fingers. Heck, sometimes I still forget it!

Go Lefties!

[CODiNE]

They'd BETTER allow Link to hold the sword in his left hand and sheild on the right if the player is a leftie. I'm NOT, but I would want to switch back and forth to work on ambidexriousness and keep my arms a bit more balanced. Man I just realized, with THIS controller the Wii could support lefties in all games and become THE official leftie gaming console! I hope someone at Nintendo has already added this to Zelda and other games or some people are going to be really disappointed.

Re:Go Lefties!

[i.of.the.storm]

In case you haven't read the dozen odd posts above you stating this fact, Link has always been left handed. I never noticed this myself, but now I realize that it's true. Now I'm worried about us righties... on a side note, somehow it seems that left handed people, or at least the ones I know, tend to be smarter and/or more creative or artistic than average. Is there any reason for this?

Re:Go Lefties!

[CODiNE]

Link is a leftie? Dang I never noticed that one... stupid right-handed me. Well no biggie, they won't force us to play leftie, we're not smart enuff for it. :-)

Re:Go Lefties!

[i.of.the.storm]

I didn't mean that righties (which I am one) are stupid or something, I just was stating that it seemed like all the lefties I know are highly skilled at academics and/or creativity and art. So maybe the gene for left-handedness is related to the gene for creativity?

It's been beaten to death, but...

[arigi]

In Soviet Russia, Wiimote swings YOU!

Re:It's been beaten to death, but...

[cryfordawnsend]

that wasn't even Wiimotely funny...

Re:It's been beaten to death, but...

[the_crowing]

Neither was that.

Re:It's been beaten to death, but...

[Shadyman]

Can we erase both these comments and Wii-try?

Re:It's been beaten to death, but...

[geminidomino]

Argh... "Quit without saving" instead...

Re:It's been beaten to death, but...

[chmod a x mojo]

I think you mean quit WII-thout saving......

Re:It's been beaten to death, but...

[geminidomino]

No, it was a reference to the old Zelda game-over screen.

"Retry" (Wii-try)
"Save and Quit"
"Quit Without Saving"

A technical question about sword swinging

[WillAffleckUW]

I was watching Hellboy with my girlfriend, and we had both been talking about how some movies couldn't be made before CGI.

But during the movie, Hellboy grabs a stone sword from a statue and starts cutting through the CGI tentacle god. I noticed - because I've used cutlasses, epees, and other swords - that he literally cut through it as if it weren't there (which it wasn't, he swung the sword before the CGI monster was added).

My technical question is: exactly how are they going to deal with sword resistance - when I chop through a tentacle, or for example let's just use a chicken here, or an octopus, there is resistance which:

a. slows my sword, even when I'm in a very fast spin attack; and

b. puts pressure on my wrist, arm, and shoulder due to that.

Now, are we going to have to live in a world of "massless" monsters, and then they'll have to change iron golems into marshmallow golems?

Or will the Wii controller have some feedback loops, like heavy vibration and sounds and the image on the screen slows to represent what really would happen?

Just wondering.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, the act of "swinging" the controller is the equivalent of pressing a button. That is all. So to answer your question, they're not.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[Wampus Aurelius]

Warning: Sword geek response below.

I train in iaijutsu, or Japanese sword drawing. Every so often we do tameshigiri, or mat cutting. I can say from experience that if you've got the proper technique, when you cut through mats you feel almost no resistance at all.

But I do agree that if there's something hard in the game that you're swinging against, such as an armored opponent or someone's shield, you should feel resistance. Maybe audio and visual cues, enough to let you know that you've hit something and moving the Wiimote more in that direction will be useless.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[Anonymous Coward]

I swing my epee around all the time. The ladies love it!!

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[dogmatixpsych]

You lost me at girlfriend.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[orielbean]

They probably treat all surfaces as a single point of contact, with the same feeedback on a tentacle vs a golem. I don't know that these Zelda games have a whole lot of decapitation or limb removal or getting your sword stuck on some dude's spine. I imagine they will keep it Disney as they usually do.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[grumbel]

My technical question is: exactly how are they going to deal with sword resistance

The answer is quite simple: they don't. So far no games allows you to swing a sword in a remotly realistic manner, its all just predefined attacks mapped to strokes from the Wiimote. So since you never actually control the sword, there is no reason to handle resistance in the first place.

If there actually will come realistic sword games we will see, but so far most discussion on that subject is more about dream than about what the Wii will actually provide.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[mattcoz]

He lost me at Hellboy.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[WillAffleckUW]

Ah, but couldn't they make sure the game sends:

a. rumble feature on contact with non-gelatinous beastie or human, to simulate vibration effects when you hit something that has resistance;

b. noise feature on contact with object, to use auditory feedback such as: .1. Clang (hitting armoured individual or stone/metal surface) .2. Chunk (hitting wood or something like that) .3. Grrk (hitting flesh or thickish material) .4. Slice (highly strong weapon hitting something it is good at cutting)

and then modulate the sound based upon spin, kinetics versus potential energy, angle of attack, etc.

It would be up to the sword-user (the character), to realize the depicted on-screen reaction is what his Wiimote should be doing - obviously they can't stop your Wiimote from moving, but they could translate continued force as if it was pushing.

You could even emulate sticking by a red flash icon over the weapon onscreen, a SqueeSqueeSquee or ErrkErrkErrk sound as the weapon stuck in, and have the rumble vibrate on and off whenever you "tried" to move it.

It's a software problem, not a device problem - the devices are all there - sound output in the Wiimote, rumble in the Wiimote, sound output on screen, visual feedback on screen.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[gameboyhippo]

I know this is unlikly, but if they added a couple of *censored* into the wiimote, that can certianly provide resistance. Wait... I better patent that!

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[modecx]

The cool thing is that the remote has a speaker and the vibrator thing, which they discuss on some of the videos about it. For example when you use the bow, a string stretching sound comes from the remote, and when you release, the speaker in the remote in combination with the stereo sound source make it sound like the arrow leaves your hand, flies to the target and hits. If done correctly, it will be pretty cool.

Much could be done in regards to this, though of course, it's never going to supply resistance unless we figure out a way to manipulate mass instantaneously.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[grumbel]

It's a software problem, not a device problem - the devices are all there - sound output in the Wiimote, rumble in the Wiimote, sound output on screen, visual feedback on screen.

Yep, the controller in theory has everything that would be needed, at least I hope, still not sure if its really full 3D or just close to it, there is something optical involved that might require you to point it to the sensor-bar to fully function. Anyway, the reason why probally nobody has tried it is most likly because its simply so different from how games are done these days. Full realistic sword fight would require dynamic animation, not just on the side of the hero, but also from the enemy. If you hit an enemy you want a realstic reaction, not just cheap rag-doll stuff, but something that also works when the enemy just got hurt and not just when he drops dead. And of course you might want to have an environment that actually reacts in an equally realistic manner, something which a good physic engine could do, which is something I haven't really seen so far on a Nintendo system. There is of course also an issue with CPU power, even if you could write all the software to do all the physic and body simulation, would the Wii be fast enough to actually calculate it?

The Wii will certainly allow some new games, but I think expecting realstic sword fighting could lead to some huge disapointments down the line. I think where the Wiimote will work much better, especially in the beginning, is in the little things, like opening a door with your own hand, not just an generic open-animation or picking up of items in an equally non-automated way.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[WillAffleckUW]

it's more likely that early feedback on ... oh ... places like slashdot and so on, will lead Nintendo and developers to thinking about such things earlier rather than later.

So, it's not a bad thing to express a desire for realistic sword fighting. If Nintendo isn't reading this, then I'll be sorely disappointed (especially since I'm a shareholder in them right now). Might even send some emails to the board ... or call in via the Net during the Annual Meeting. Us brash Americans do things like that.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[SuiteSisterMary]

Say your character walks up to an iron pole. You, with your trusty wiimote, take a big swing. Good old fashioned straight horizontal right to left cut, shoulder level. Think baseball swing.

Your wiimote, of course, will wind up somewhere to the left of you. Your character, however, will have his sword back to his right, as it will have bounced off of the pole.

How to reconcile the fact that your wiimote's phyical position no longer corresponds to the virtual sword's position?

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[WillAffleckUW]

Well, I would expect either:

a. a WHAAAANGG with a Big vibration and a red flash on the screen (e.g. don't do that); or

b. a CRANNNNG with a short sharp vibration and a picture of part of my sword flying off or bent because I broke it.

In either case, my hands would continue the motion, but the auditory, motion, and visual feedback would tell me I was out another sword, cause my character was not that smart.

Nothing prevents you from jumping off cliffs either - it's stupid, but a good simulation has methods of dealing with that.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[Anonymous Coward]

the thing is you don't need to take a hefty swing, it just has to be quick and light. lets say you make a swing at your opponent and he blocks it, your characters sword is up in the air and your hand holding the wiimote is down. To make up for the difference you must bring the wiimote up to roughly the same position as your character has his sword to recover from the block. So you basically follow the movements of the character to regain control of him, if you don't then your opponent will kill you.

I think any gamer would get used to these small quirks within a game after a few minutes of playing.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[bronney]

It's a game, it's ok to have no sword resistence. Though if there was it'd be "better" or more "correct".

If you look at the gaming world, so far we only have force feedback wheels and joysticks. Mostly for racing and flight sim type games with resistence provided by pulleys and motors. Who know there might be a FFB sword/stick later but I don't see a market. There's just not enough sword games for now that supports it.

But then again, where's the recoil in firing a Glock in CS?

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[mgblst]

Oh don't worry, they have thought of this. They will use real tentacles.

Re:A technical question about sword swinging

[WillAffleckUW]

But then again, where's the recoil in firing a Glock in CS?

Good point. For that matter, why don't the hot shell casings ever hit you in the cheek when you stand next to someone firing a 9mm SMG?

But I'm hoping for better sword physics, not worse, with the Wii.

Re:But.. How do you make it glow?

[cno3]

Mountain Dew.

Re:Why wouldn't it? or real sword fights ...

[WillAffleckUW]

1. It could be open to tons of abuse, and mainly people just flailing the wiimote about, scoring hits as they swing randomly.

2. So, why don't people do that in real sword fights?

Actually, if you go berserker, and a woman I know used to do that, it's kind of like that, you get so pumped up and out of connection, that you start attacking even the wrong people.

What works with it is, literally, surprise. People don't know what to do with it, they tend to falter in defense, they don't think because they're stunned (and bleeding, which if you're not berserk, can really bother you), and as a result they frequently try to run away, which creates even more confusion and usually leads to them being attacked from the side or behind.

So, if you can do that, and it takes a heck of a lot of energy, go for it. But you have to keep it up.

Re:Why wouldn't it? or how heavy is my sword

[WillAffleckUW]

They originally wanted all swinging to be done through the Wiimote, but then found that it tires you too quickly, so they just constrained it to "special" sorts of attacks, or something like that.

Well, real swords do that. They're heavy. Your wrist and your arm and your shoulder get tired.

Personally, I rather look forward to more realistic swordplay. I've had it with teeny young girls swinging giant two-handed swords in glowing arcs as they attack, or throwing halberds (those things are heavy) as if they were toothpicks.

I would hope you can choose to have "realistic effects" if you want, quite frankly. Sure, turn them off if you can't handle it, but leave them for the purists like me who just don't want all the scars you get from that kind of thing.

Re:I don't know about that - or real swords

[WillAffleckUW]

From my experience as a fencer (I have fenced sabre for four years, and I just began fencing épée), just holding a blade in the en garde position can tire my arm. If I have not fenced for a while, my arms is sometimes tired after a mere 25-minute lesson.

That matches my experience as well. Even a short sword, unless used for short jabs, is a pretty heavy weapon for your average person not used to heavy labor.

I laugh at the young slender women carrying weapons that weigh 15-20 pounds - yeah, right ... not going to happen. Not without massive steroids.

In related news...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the "Hot Coffee" mod of GTA:SA for the Wii is being designed to include wiimote-stroking.

Re:I don't know about that - or real swords

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, you know young women carrying around 15-20 weapons? What are they using, iron maces?

Feedback

[GFLPraxis]

The real difficult part is feedback. You swing a sword from right to left. Halfway through the swing, on screen, your opponent puts out his sword and blocks the attack. Your hand keeps going. Now your hand is all the way on the left, but on the screen, your sword is in the middle of the screen, confusing the heck out of the player.

Regardless, the reason the Wii version of Zelda didn't have real-time sword tracking is because it was an up-port of the GameCube version. Nintendo simply mapped all the GameCube buttons onto the Wii-mote, and then let you use the pointer for aiming arrows (which worked spectacularly well when I tried it at E3, I was pulling off headshots within ten seconds of pulling out the bow and arrow).

Re:Feedback

[Joe Random]

The real difficult part is feedback. You swing a sword from right to left. Halfway through the swing, on screen, your opponent puts out his sword and blocks the attack. Your hand keeps going. Now your hand is all the way on the left, but on the screen, your sword is in the middle of the screen, confusing the heck out of the player.

I don't think this will be a problem at all. When the on-screen sword is impeded, you could treat further deviation of the controller from the virtual-sword's position as applying force to the opponent's sword. Keep moving far enough (within reason), and you could begin to push the opponent's sword back. Move the controller back the way it came, and your avatar slowly lets off pressure, allowing the opponent's sword to advance. Combine this with the rumble feature, and you end up with even greater control over your virtual sword.

Simplify this to having the on-screen sword simply attempt to move in a straight line from where it is to where you want it to be (perhaps with some on-screen indicator to show where you're currently pointing), with the force of the attempt controlled by the distance left to travel, and you could do all kinds of cool stuff. To use your above scenario:

Halfway through the swing, on screen, your opponent puts out his sword and blocks the attack. Your hand keeps going. Now your hand is all the way on the left, but on the screen, your sword is in the middle of the screen, as your avatar struggles to push back your opponent's sword. You then swing the controller straight up, causing your sword to slide upward along your opponent's in a shower of sparks while still holding it at bay. As soon as it's clear, you flick the controller down and to the right, easily splitting your opponent's head.

Re:Feedback

[dancpsu]

Help! Help! I keep moving my mouse to the left but the pointer is stuck on the edge of the screen! I'm so confused.

Re:Feedback

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

I don't know too much about it, but I would imagine that the sword would clash with whatever hits it, and then automatically default back to the proper position.

Re:Feedback

[Wolface]

Because it vibrates. That's how you know you hit.
  Not to mention it also has a speaker on the controller which I assume will provide feedback sounds.

Re:Feedback

[JourneyExpertApe]

The real difficult part is feedback. You swing a sword from right to left. Halfway through the swing, on screen, your opponent puts out his sword and blocks the attack. Your hand keeps going. Now your hand is all the way on the left, but on the screen, your sword is in the middle of the screen, confusing the heck out of the player.

Try something for me. Click on the scroll bar to the right and drag it until it reaches the top. Then drag it some more. The mouse cursor continues to move, but the scroll bar doesn't. Now move the mouse back down (without letting go of the button). The scroll bar doesn't move until the cursor reaches the point where the scroll bar stopped moving. Neat, huh?[1] Why couldn't this game be the same? If you swing past your opponent's sword, you can't recoil your sword until you move the wiimote back past the point of contact (in all three planes). Sounds simple enough to me. (Yes, yes, I know it would actually be a lot of work to implement. But the games industry is supposed to be cutting edge. Let's see some more edge cutting!)

[1] This post is only supported on Windows XP. If you are using some other window manager, this may not work. But trust me; it works on Windows.

Re:Feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn. You made me lose my place.

Re:Feedback

[jensen404]

If you swing past your opponent's sword, you can't recoil your sword until you move the wiimote back past the point of contact (in all three planes)

The Wiimote doesn't know it's absolute position. If you aren't using it to control a cursor, the Wiimote only knows the orientation of 2 tilt axes absolutely, and that is only when if it is being held relatively still. Everything else is just relative forces on 3 axes.

Re:Feedback

[JourneyExpertApe]

I think you misunderstand. The console would continue to track the motion of the Wiimote after your sword stopped moving on the screen. I understand that it only senses motion, not absolute position, but it can use this information to calculate position relative to some starting point. That starting point could be the beginning of your swing, the beginning of a battle sequence, or some other point (perhaps you could press a button to recenter your sword). It doesn't have to be extremely accurate, just accurate enough not to be frustrating to the player.

Solution is haptics

[Tz-Auber]

Nintendo likely has just a 1-DOF (degree of freedom) vibration widget inside the attachment (I hate to use the words nunchuck or dongle). So it wouldn't have any resistance in relative 3-DOF space (outside of possible sneaky tricks you can pull of with the vibration DOF).

Haptics however is a solution to your problem. Here's a link for those who have no clue what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haptic.

With the standard law of cheaper technology over time, these highly refined force feedback devices may become a very real possibility.

Re:Solution is haptics

[WillAffleckUW]

so do you think that will be a Wii upgrade, and how much would it cost?

Re:Solution is haptics

[dubbreak]

You beat me to it. Haptic feedback is going to be the next big thing in interfaces. Do a quick google and you will find most big universities have some kind of research in it, however I don't think it will filter its way down to consumer good for some time to come.

Re:Solution is haptics

[WillAffleckUW]

Haptic feedback is going to be the next big thing in interfaces. Do a quick google and you will find most big universities have some kind of research in it, however I don't think it will filter its way down to consumer good for some time to come.

Geesh, you actually expect me to go to campus to find out? I've been avoiding trips to campus all summer long, until the seminars start up again ...

But I have noticed we have a lot of spinoff companies from the UW here, so maybe one of them will open up in Fremont and I can swing by on my morning or evening walks to or from work. .. I just wanted a useful Wii controller that actually simulates sword swinging realistically. Not asking for bloody raindrops with correct spatter effects during a stormy day with varying cloud cover and lighting conditions ...

Re:I don't know about that - or real swords

[WillAffleckUW]

15-20 pounds. Weight. per weapon.

No, she was kind of short and stocky, actually. Probably why she did so well.

Re:Noooooooo!!! or why winners buy last

[WillAffleckUW]

Just picked up an original xbox and gamecube to supplement my ps2 this year.

Well, I kind of agree with you there. I got a GameCube (my son was at the age when that was the best choice for the games), then picked up an xBox just because he went on and on about how Fable and other games would be so cool ... and it turned out the only real game he (or I) cared about on that that wasn't multi-platform, was in fact Fable (and the expansion for it). What a waste.

So we just bought a PS2. Real cheap. Really really cheap. And now he's got lots of very cheap games and free ones from friends too.

We'll get a Wii early though - the games offered look really fun, but I can't see wasting money on a PS3, and the games on the xBox360 bore the pants off me.

can all afford to get a wii?

[ekagauranga]

Since many of us live in 3rd world countries is very difficult to afford new consoles and we have to wait eons to get grab of one. Why big companies like Nintendo doesnt make special prices for this kind of places even they are more expensive !!! if you want to help please spread the voice here you can help me and my 4 friends http://www.wiiwantourwii.com/ we are getting donation only for 5 wii, if anything spare will be used in charity please donate

Re:Why wouldn't it? or how heavy is my sword

[badboy_tw2002]

Video-game sword fighting purists?

Re:Why wouldn't it? or how heavy is my sword

[WillAffleckUW]

More accurately, sword fighting purists who are looking forward to realistic video games.

Re:Why wouldn't it? or how heavy is my sword

[EyelessFade]

>Personally, I rather look forward to more realistic swordplay. Well why don't you just go out and fight with your friends. With real swords. And yes they are heavy! In Bergen, Norway we have Kongshirden 1260 (The kings hird 1260)

Re:Why wouldn't it? or how heavy is my sword

[WillAffleckUW]

I have. But, as I said, you get scars and it's not fun being black and blue from a non-sharp sword or even rattan, IMHO.

Much more fun to get some nice swordplay online with a networked Wii on a rainy day, and whack each other that way.

Fencing would be fun too. Did that too.

And what of the poor guys who are based in Antartica? Why can't they use this?

Re:I don't know about that - or real swords

[geminidomino]

But she was tall and slender before she started carrying around the 20-lb greatsword! ;)

Re:I don't know about that - or real swords

[bladesjester]

I've been training with a sword for about 16 years now and have used everything from butterfly swords to a claymore. The weight on a short sword really isn't bad at all. I've trained people with no experience before, and they built up the necessary strength and endurance within a couple of weeks (twice a week).

As far as young, slender women packing heavy weapons and needing steriods to use them, I have a counterexample (although I admit that it's a rare one.). One of the other blacksmiths at the forge where I volunteered (the senior apprentice) was a very slender 16 year old that had more strength in her upper body than a lot of fully grown men that I've known. She was just really wirey. Appearances can, at times, be really deceiving.

This article got me thinking that..

[RuBLed]

my Wiimote would be in pretty bad shape when LucasArts releases a Lightsaber game with the "Force" Lightsaber throw technique...

(I dont know if somebody beat me to this idea)

Re:This article got me thinking that..

[theJamAbides]

I think your TV would be in worse shape though...

What what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Forgive me for being a nearly gameless girl (I know. Hotshot Golf 3 doesn't count ... but I made it to the end!) whose roomie and son endlessly press the buttons all day (no, not that one); but, why in hell dimensions do games not have endlessly customizable keymapping? Why can't you remap the keys on a game device just like you can a keyboard? Or maybe you can, and an article like this is just for an ignorant like me ... except one who has that game? Small market indeed, there.

I've played other golf games (Yes. I do know how lame I am, thank you all.) but I hate their finger/thumb action required. *pfft* I didn't have to re-learn meatworld golf to play a different game.

(Forgive the anonymous coward. I am drinking a martini and could not recall my long ago login to save my life!)

Re:I don't know about that - or real swords

[WillAffleckUW]

As far as young, slender women packing heavy weapons and needing steriods to use them, I have a counterexample (although I admit that it's a rare one.). One of the other blacksmiths at the forge where I volunteered (the senior apprentice) was a very slender 16 year old that had more strength in her upper body than a lot of fully grown men that I've known. She was just really wirey. Appearances can, at times, be really deceiving.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just improbable. I was a blacksmith when I was a teen myself - man, folding sword metal takes forever ... and was also wiry.

However, in general, game physics rules are bent way too often so that young 15 yo girls who weigh 100 pounds at most are running around with giant 25 pound swords, using them as if they were light as butter.

Re:Why wouldn't it? or how heavy is my sword

[badboy_tw2002]

I think someone else in this discussion said it already, but I think swordfighting on the Wii is one of the less compelling uses for the Wiimote because of the feedback issue. There's a few "sword fighting" arcade games out there, and if you want "slash some zombies" the Wii is your ticket. If you want "duel another swordsman" then forget it. There's no way to have feedback for glancing your blade of a shield or hitting someone else. I could see fencing maybe, but still, no way to deflect the blade. Until they figure out how to make a force-feedback remote, its kind of screwed.