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Real-Time Strategy Games - Too Many Clicks?

simoniker writes "A new Gamasutra article asks provocatively in its synopsis: 'Could games like Civilization benefit from putting their interfaces on a diet? Can a player control too many objects at once in a strategy game?' Are RTS titles too UI-intensive? The author notes: 'Even for a Civ addict like me, the game isn't much fun after about 1800. Too many clicks. I counted the clicks, mouse movements, and keystrokes that it took me to get through one move of Civilization III in the year 1848. Many hours later, when that turn was done, I'd counted 422 mouse clicks, 352 mouse movements, 290 key presses, 23 wheel scrolls, and 18 screen pans to scroll the screen.'"

174 comments

  1. Automation by Iamthefallen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    From TFA:
    I was attempting to construct a railway line connecting the north end to the south end of my civilization.
    [Snip] ...
    I needed to assign about a hundred workers to building the railway line in order to get it built before being overrun. For each worker, I had to click on it once to bring it into focus; then type 'g' to begin a movement, scroll to its starting point on the railway line, and click again. Later, when it reached that point, I would have to type "ctrl-r" to build a railroad, scroll to the end of that unit's portion of the railway, and click again. That's three mouse movements, three keystrokes, and three mouse clicks per unit. I tried to keep the workers in groups of three, although this was possible only about half the time. So it probably took me 600 clicks, keystrokes, and scrolls to build that railway.

    Imagine if I'd been able to say that I wanted to build a railroad, click on its start, and click on its end. The computer would then have directed workers, as they became available, to work on sections of the railway. The entire railroad could have been constructed with the same amount of supervision that it took me to direct one worker.


    Yeah, imagine that, it's called Civ4. You can direct one worker to build it, you can direct a dozen.

    But again we go to TFA:
    You may wonder why I'm talking about Civ III, when Civ IV has been out for months. I never bought Civ IV. I'd been waiting and hoping for a more playable Civ. What finally arrived was a Civ that takes just as many clicks, but with a new animated 3D UI.

    Yeah...

    In CIv4 you can automate most actions and take a hands-off approach and focus on the general direction of your empire. More and more I play my games by automating construction in my non-critical cities, I let workers build improvements automatically, I make choices as to what crucial structures will be built where, but the mundane, repetitive clicking can be mostly done away with.

    Point is, the choice to make detail decisions is entirely yours. I don't think it's a UI problem when you choose to build dozens of cities, hundereds of units, and then micro-manage them all. Especially when the UI of the game in question (CIV III) is several years old. Imagine that, UIs evolve!

    What's next, a 6 page article on powertoys for Windows 95 and why they don't increase productivity?

    --
    Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
    1. Re:Automation by bateleur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Whilst I mostly agree with your comments here, Civ 4 still encourages an awful lot of micromanagement if you're trying to beat the game's higher levels.

      This is not necessarily bad, though. Some people like to micromanage for hours on end. It seems to me that Philip Goetz - despite writing six pages and appending weighty academic references at the end of his piece - is mostly just complaining that he doesn't like this particular style of game.

    2. Re:Automation by Alpha+Soixante-Neuf · · Score: 1

      IMO Civ 4 went a long way to helping people who don't like the mm side of turn based strategy games (note not real-time, how that slides by whoever's in charge up there is beyond me). If you want to beat the game playing on Prince/Emperor or higher you're gonna need to keep control over everything to exploit your intelligence vs. the AI's overall bonuses, but if that stuff bores you, then play at a lower difficulty and you can automate away and focus on the parts you enjoy. IMO the automation still needs more work. It could use general worker strategy options, like cottage spam or city specific strategies that you could click on and the citizen automation sucks too, but if you're playing any of the lower difficulties you can still automate and enjoy the parts of a strategy game that you signed up for. Also, based on the direction they've gone with this series specifically, I think the developers are already pretty aware of how much this can turn off some gamers and are already trying to fix the problem without alienating those who enjoy the micromanagement aspects of these games. I'd much rather complain about how these companies still think it's okay to ship products that are not ready and let their consumers wait for 2-3 or more patches before a significant minority can even play the game in the first place.

      --
      "The world is a tragedy to those who feel, and comedy to those who think." -- Shakespeare
    3. Re:Automation by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 1

      Can't say I've played the Civilization series, but perhaps the author's problem was picking an extreme of the genre.

      The other RTS I've played (age of empires and mythology) are much more intuitive. Select worker, select building, click somewhere to build. If you want to add more, drag over an area of workers (or double-click for all visible), then right click on the building. If it's already built, they'll do whatever that building does when you click.

    4. Re:Automation by keesh · · Score: 1

      Building lots of cities and micromanaging is the only way to win. It's the same in CivIII, CivIV and Alpha Centauri. Whilst letting the computer handle things is passable if you're on super-easy difficulty, it's nowhere near good enough to get an impressive victory.

    5. Re:Automation by Keebler71 · · Score: 1
      I am a Civ 3 addict who also hasn't made the move to Civ 4 yet. I bought it and gave it a couple hours - but found the graphics got in the way of the gameplay (where have we heard that before) so I went back to Civ 3. As for worker automation in Civ 3, I usually use the keyboard shortcuts that let me put the workers in auto mode. Yes, they use the same logic as the computer AI (which isn't that bright) but you can mitigate this by using the constrained forms of the automation commmand: (from the shortcut reference)

      Unit Commands - Workers (v1.17f)

      • Automate A
      • Automate, keep existing improvements Shift-A *** Very useful!!!
      • Automate, improve nearest city only Shift-I ***
      • Automate, nearest city & keep existing Ctrl-Shift-I ***
      • Automate, clear forests only Shift-F
      • Automate, clear jungle only Shift-J ***
      • Automate, clean up pollution only Shift-P ***
      • Build Road to square, then Colony Ctrl-B
      • Build Road to selected square Ctrl-R ***
      • Build Railroad to selected square Ctrl-Shift-R
      • Build Trade Network Ctrl-N ***
      • Irrigate to nearest city Ctrl-I ***
      The ones with asterisks give you much finer control over the worker actions than the normal "a" key. I can't stand the AI's tendency to replace existing improvements so those marked with *** are really crucial. So its a trade-off between optimizing efficiency of movemement and reducing the micromanagement. For what it is worth, I leave about 1/3 of my workers in manual mode which usually means I have at least 5 workers or so idle at the beginning of each turn and availble for my bidding without interrupting their current work.

      I usually have about 30 workers or so until right before the industrial age. About 10-20 turns before I get railroad I divert all my attention to building workers so I have 60-100 by the first turn I have railroad and use them to connect all my cities. Once every square has railroads, I'll use the excess workers to form human barriers at chokepoints or absorb them into the smaller cities but I keep 20-30 or so around for pollution clean-up duty.

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    6. Re:Automation by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I played a demo of an rts 5 years back, I think it was Warzone 2100. It had a lot of features to cut down on the amount of clicking and moving you had to do. You could set up "programs" of what you wanted to build, and it would build it. You could tell it to build 3 infantry, then a tank, then 2 humvees, and then some other stuff, and it would continually repeat that loop. I find that the biggest problem with RTS games is that you have to constant go back and forth to your base, building stuff, all same time trying to fight a war. Oh, and the other thing that bothers me, is not being able to select enough units. Many games are limited to 12 or something stupid like that. I want to be able to select 100 units and group them if I so choose.

      Another feature that would work well for RTS is to have 2 or more people working on the same team (online obviously). Not 2 separate teams who happen to work together, but the same team where they can both control the same units. That way, you could have one guy in control of guarding the base, while the other guy fights the battle, and maybe a third person to go off on scouting missions.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:Automation by Iamthefallen · · Score: 1

      But then...that's a choice you make. The game isn't making you play that way. If you choose a higher difficulty, why shouldn't it be, well, more difficult and require you to take more control?

      --
      Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
    8. Re:Automation by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      When I see a selection limit in an RTS I immediately conclude that whoever designed that interface was a retard. I mean, WHY? Command and fucking Conquer allowed selecting as many units as you want, why do modern RTSes want to restrict that? Want to turn it into a game of who-can-click-faster or what?

      Any game with an interface worse than Spring needs to have its GUI developers put through a collective beating.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    9. Re:Automation by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      This is exactly why it makes me so mad that you can't select as many units as you want. C&C was the first RTS I played, and frankly i think that modern RTSs could learn a lot from it. Not only could you select as many units as you wanted, but there was many other good features. You only had 1 resource to collect. After playing Warcraft 2, and having to manage 3 different resources, you didn't have time to do any actual fighting or exploring. I met some people who thought that starcraft was the best game ever, so I tried it out, but you could only select 12 units. Heaven forbid you wanted to move 13 units accross the map. Also was the problem with having to continually upgrade the buildings. You never knew which ones needed to be upgraded and when. you had to click on every one of them to find out when to upgrade. It's like playing Simcity and an RTS at the same time. I still think that C&C is one of the best, because it doesn't try to load you up with tons of stuff that make the game less fun.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    10. Re:Automation by init100 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, imagine that, it's called Civ4. You can direct one worker to build it, you can direct a dozen.

      I really liked how the problem was solved in Civilization: Call To Power. In this game, tile improvements were built with a tax on shield production. The tax collected "Public Works" credits that could subsequently be used to build tile improvements or perform terraforming. Each improvement had its own cost, and took a specific amount of time to build. I could e.g. select "Advanced mines" and click on each tile where I wanted such a mine, given I had the required PW credits. No units had to be created to do this. There was also a Capitalization-style build project called "Infrastructure", that would convert the entire shield output of a city into PW credits.

    11. Re:Automation by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      C&C still has its shortcomings like the monolithic build system (want to have two factories? too bad) and the harvesters needing attention to prevent them from running into enemy defenses. Of course it's easier to control than any Blizzard RTS but Blizzard seems to intentionally cripple their games for some insane reason. The bigger issue is that I'm seeing B's bad ideas pop up in other games (Act of War has a 30 unit selection limit, for example). If I wanted to do everything myself I'd play Quake 3 Arena, not an RTS.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    12. Re:Automation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having played both the C&C games and Starcraft extensively I can say that SC is by far the more "strategic" of the two. C&C might have had good storylines and a very straightforward UI, but its multiplayer component was linear as hell. Tank rush ftw. That's the reason why SC had special units, upgrades and limits on the number of units that could be selected or built.

    13. Re:Automation by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I specifically remember that you could have 2 factories, and 2 barracks, or any number thereof. And when you built the extra one, it would build units twice as fast. It's really fun to build 3 or 4 barracks, and watch the units just appear in a second.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    14. Re:Automation by Control+Group · · Score: 1

      Building lots of cities and micromanaging is the only way to win. It's the same in CivIII, CivIV and Alpha Centauri

      Actually, no, it isn't. The proper strategy for Civ3 was certainly endless city spawning (and SMAC might be the same; I've never played it), but the support cost structure in Civ4 prevents you from winning that way. One of the fastest ways to lose an empire is to keep taking barb cities instead of razing them. On a normal-size map, I've found the ideal number of cities to be right around six (depending on which Civ you are, what the resources around you look like, etc.)

      --

      Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    15. Re:Automation by xtracto · · Score: 1

      From TFA:
      I was attempting to construct a railway line connecting the north end to the south end of my civilization.
      [Snip] ...
      I needed to assign about a hundred workers to building the railway line in order to get it built before being overrun. For each worker, I had to click on it once to bring it into focus; then type 'g' to begin a movement, scroll to its starting point on... [blah][blah][blah]


      Well, lets see if this guy is whining about too many clicks, I've got the solution:

      ~

      then:


          Worker works= new[100] Worker(); [INTRO]
          Railway r = new railway.new(workers); [INTRO]
          foreach (Worker w in works) ; [INTRO]
          { [INTRO]
            w.setFocus(); [INTRO]
            w.setAction(Construct(r)); [INTRO]
          } [INTRO]


      There ya go, hth.

      p.s. Sorry for the sloppy JavaC++# script =oP

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    16. Re:Automation by Targon · · Score: 1

      Civ 4 is a turn based strategy game, not a Real Time Strategy game. As a result, the focus is on thinking about your overall strategy, as well as to handle individual units. The situation you put yourself may require you to micro-manage things more or less, and it's not necessarily the fault of the game.

      Now, Civ 4 was a huge step forward for the series from Civ 3. It's not Civ 3 with some new features and slightly improved graphics, so of course some people will complain without playing it enough to understand the changes.

      If you are at war(which doesn't happen all that often if you keep your military strength up), then of course you need to control your military units. You can't avoid that, but being at war isn't the only way to win in Civ 4. You have the space race, you have culture, you have the old domination method, and so on. You can also use religion as a primary way to handle your economy.

      The trick is that many things can be automated, but it's up to you if you want to play that way. If you want to spam-grow your empire, that won't work in Civ 4 without reducing your science output. Things change, in this case for the better. There is room for improvement, but complaining about clicking is like complaining that Chess gets too complicated in the mid and end game. Strategy means you have a lot of things to think about, but you don't need to move EVERY piece each turn.

    17. Re:Automation by Krakhan · · Score: 1

      In addition, you can group units with the keyboard using ctrl+#. However, this does require more micromanagement of the keyboard. Limiting the amount of units you can select to make a game more 'strategic' though (i.e. who can click faster) seems like a poor solution. But, this is Blizzard we're talking about, who never seem to be able to put in good solutions to problems. Just take a look at Diablo and some of the poor coding that was done with that as an example (Mana Shield no stun bug, duping bug, etc.)

    18. Re:Automation by Krakhan · · Score: 1

      Oh, and one more thing too that bugged me about SC:BW interface was that although the list of commands could have been made to easily adapt to the number pad on a keyboard, they still stuck with the somewhat backwards way of doing it in Warcraft 2 where each command had a hotkey letter associated with it.

      However, I know there was a modification released for that a long time ago. However, I got to wonder about Blizzard's user interfaces for its RTS games at times.

      Other than these gripes, and some others for their hack 'n slash games, it is still a very fun game that does fill me with nostalgia.

    19. Re:Automation by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Civ 4 isn't an RTS, so an AoE style interface wouldn't work. For example, you don't gather resources and you don't build buildings on the general map- workers build improvements on map squares and all the buildings are placed inside cities (no workers needed). YOu can only build 1 building of a type per city, and only 1 building at a time per city.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    20. Re:Automation by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1
      The other RTS I've played (age of empires and mythology) are much more intuitive.


      Intuitiveness is not the problem. AoE and AoM are highly intuitive. The main issue is micromanagement.

      Even the best games in the genre suffer from this flaw at an extremely core level. If a unit (e.g. basic infantry) finds a target, it will keep firing at that target until it leaves range, dies, is killed itself, or is given another order. (Depending on it's "command", it may choose to pursue and engage.) This is a flaw in itself, as you will have basic infantry trying to take out tanks rather than rocket soldiers.

      Here's a issue specific to AoE/AoM. When you have a group of units retreat from a combat, they maintain the same speed and do it in formation (unless you select individual units or just the fastest units in the group.) Wouldn't you love to have a double-right-click cause them to break formation and sprint to where they should go?

      And now, for a nearly-global issue. When making an attack, it is highly intuitive to click on the unit or building you wish to attack. However, it is not intuitive that units stop in their tracks as soon as the designated target is blown up - this isn't a problem for a group by itself, but is more serious if you just recently added units to that group from your base.

      Select worker, select building, click somewhere to build. If you want to add more, drag over an area of workers (or double-click for all visible), then right click on the building. If it's already built, they'll do whatever that building does when you click.


      That's acutally standard unit behaviour, no different than casting "spells". It just happens that these workers have spells that cost resources and product a building as an end-result.

      That interface style also has a minor issue - you need to find your workers (unless you have a hotkey that selects idle workers.) Wouldn't it be better to have a build command that automatically commands the nearest idle worker to make the structure? This is similar to the method used in Rise of Legends, with the exception that there are no workers required to construct a building.

    21. Re:Automation by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I think they limited it in later versions. AFAIK Red Alert already had a limit of one or two after which more factories brought no further advantage. That's not a big problem in symmetric teams but if you've got e.g. one player vs. two and the map is split 50-50 the one player loses because he can't produce units and buildings as quickly as his opponents.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    22. Re:Automation by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      They probably limited it, because by spending $300 on an extra barracks (which was very cheap, the equivalent of 3 infantry), you could create units at twice the speed. This kind of thing really changes the dynamics of the game from how strategic you can be, to how fast can you build an army.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    23. Re:Automation by tbannist · · Score: 1

      There's a few things that really help out on the micromanagement. Some of this was attempted in Masters of Orion III, but it fell short on too many other fronts to be really stand-out.

      For example cities should produce according to the following

      1) Civilization wide default build queue.
        - Let me set the order I want my buildings built in by default in every city. There should be a queue of buildings and the order they should be built. For instance say I want marketplace, factory, bank, and then powerplant built in every city, but I don't want any Cathedrals because they cost too much for upkeep. I should be able to list those buildings in that order, and have Cathedrals on a of list buildings to never build.
      2) Alternate/assignable queues
        - Let me set the order I want something built in
      3) Manual control
        - Let me turn off automation for the cities I need to control, usually border cities need to be monitored closely and my wonder-building cities as well.

      Other handy tools would come in nice, like a production list that shows me the best "value" purchases I can make. By this I mean the most turns saved at the least price. Possibly, there should also be a value sorter, so that the best improvements for the least cost could also be shown. So for example if something is going to improve the monetary flow in the city by 2 gold, it would rate higher than the 1 gold improvement in another city, as long as it cost less than double the 1 gold improvement.

      When new improvements are discovered I should have the option of switching all production, all building production, all wonder production, or all military production to building that new unit/improvement. Also I loved, the industrial units from Alpha Centauri that allowed you to send out foragers for a city to bring in extra food/minerals/resources from far away squares. When you used them it totally changed the game added a new level of strategy for the harder difficulty levels.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    24. Re:Automation by abandonment · · Score: 1

      >>I don't know if it's a flaw or more of a "how the heck do you code something like that?"

      this is probably already done, similar to how traditional (ie in the 'real world') military training defines tactical priority.

      typically a soldier (tank, chopper, whatever) is supposed to attack the enemy target in the order of danger that the target presents to the soldier. So if a soldier spots a tank in their vicinity, it would typically present a much higher threat level than an individual solder, so it makes sense (in this context) to attack the tank before the soldiers.

      mind you, for a soldier with a small arms weapon (rifle for example), it wouldn't make any sense to attack a tank, because you could shoot the tank all day and not make any damage to it.

      whereas in most RTS games, even an infantry soldier with a rifle can eventually harm/damage/kill a tank with a rifle, even if this makes zero sense logically. so the soldier's AI tells it - that tank is dangerous, ima attack it, when logically the soldier should be fighting the infantry nearby instead.

      getting the soldiers to attack soldiers instead of tanks isn't exactly rocket science, but to optimize it, would require a higher level 'squad' type of AI versus the individual soldier's AI.

      so each 'turn' (or every few seconds, that type of thing), the squad AI would scan the unit's surrounding area for targets. if an optimal target has appeared that makes more sense to attack (ie an infantry unit versus a tank), then the squad AI should direct the infantry to attack the infantry, switching priorities and targets for each of the individual soldiers that the squad AI is controlling.

      all of this can and should be done behind the scenes without any player input whatsoever.

      the current 'state of the industry' leaves much to be desired as far as AI goes - i've tried to play a few RTS type games recently and gave up very early on because of the sheer amount of micro-management that was required.

      galactic civilizations i gave up before i even got through the set of tutorials because it was so painstaking to do anything...

      it's more of a personal preference than anything though - some people like the high-level 'god' view, whereas i'm more of a action / tactical type of person - give me a squad that actually behaves semi-intelligently and then let me control my soldier.

    25. Re:Automation by loraksus · · Score: 1

      Oh, and one more thing too that bugged me about SC:BW interface was that although the list of commands could have been made to easily adapt to the number pad on a keyboard, they still stuck with the somewhat backwards way of doing it in Warcraft 2 where each command had a hotkey letter associated with it.

      That bothered you? Really? I think it helped a lot of people to start using the hotkeys because it was easy to remember that SZ was Spawn Zerglings or Select larva and breed to Zerglings or whatever.

      Crazy question though, are you left handed? I could see how you'd feel cramped if the mouse was on the left side of your keyboard..

      I thought SC was a great game before people started doing stupid stuff like building 300 hatcheries to screw with the unit limits. Having valks not able to fire was pretty lame too...

      --
      1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcfv gbhnjmk,l.;/
    26. Re:Automation by bluemonday5 · · Score: 1

      Why is does the Slashdot story claim that the article is about RTS games, when it very clearly isn't?

    27. Re:Automation by 10Neon · · Score: 1

      StarCraft uses "2 or more players per team" concept in a few of the alternate gameplay modes. It is one of the most ignored game types in the game. Apart from being difficult to locate on the game types list, there is the problem of idiot players working actively to self-destruct their team that occurs in about a third of all public team games... I suppose it would work a lot better if there was some kind deterrent or control for that kind of behavior.

      --
      The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    28. Re:Automation by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      I don't know if it's a flaw or more of a "how the heck do you code something like that?" Give each soldier a call_out() function to scan the battle for targets they are strong against every second or two? That would be alot of resources in 8-player games with 200-man armies.


      This is generally the same problem as detecting units entering firing range in the first place. The only difference is that you are now performing this detection if the unit is making an "ineffective" attack.

      It's also amazing how they manage to detect units entering firing range. Of course, it's not that difficult - as you may know, Doom uses something called a "Blockmap" that stores which items are located in each 64x64 grid. A similar optimization is possible for RTS games, where it keeps track of which units are within a certain 64x64 grid/section.

      That sounds suspiciously like a rout -- which is generally a bad thing in warfare.


      It was. My forces got stomped by a massed frontal retalatory defence, and I'm tried to cut my losses (especially the fast moving knights that are generally expensive) - however, there isn't really an easy method for an orderly retreat as most RTS systems are based around "every-man-for-himself" tactics.

      In this case, the rout isn't too bad, as I was routing to a defended area that wasn't too far away. I've built up a few towers, plus there was a very heavy artillery piece that cuts enemy units to shreads (a map-specific unit).

      (Of course, the tactic I was trying to perform was not the intended method to advance the campaign - but at least I gained a few levels out of it.)

      Sounds reasonable to me. I wouldn't want my soldiers to just go ahead and keep advancing before I can scout out the area ahead.


      Actually, the solders stop in their tracks - not at the desgnated target. You can tell what I'm referring to once you play C&C:RA after playing C&C:RA2. Here's what's unfolds:

      - You have 10 tanks at Location A (Base), and 10 tanks at Location B (recent battle area).
      - You select the tanks at Location A and B, and assign them to group 1.
      - The enemy starts attacking. You order group 1 to destroy these forces.
      - The result in RA: you have 10 tanks standing still between Location A and B.
      - The result in RA2: you have 10 tanks at Location B. Your other 10 tanks will arrive shortly.
    29. Re:Automation by Calinous · · Score: 1

      HAve you played Red Alert 2? A tank can kill fast a US marine only by running over it - its cannon does very little damage against the infantry. As such, infantry is a deadlier enemy for groups of entrenched marines than a tank would be

    30. Re:Automation by Shilkanni · · Score: 1
      Want to turn it into a game of who-can-click-faster or what?

      I actually think this is absolutely true. It's pretty scary to me but I have read a lot of articles and comments from RTS players who cherish the micromanagement and want to keep RTS games about the controlling of individual units.

      In reading a bit about Age of Mythology when I was playing it I noticed a lot of players saying that they hated the changes in the "Titans" expansion pack which were geared at reducing micromanagement. For example, in searching for comments like that I saw http://www.ggl.com/view_forum_topic.php?TopicId=30 4&Start=50 where one of the players says:

      I haven't and won't play the Titans because of the autoqueue function... [amongst other reasons]

      Autoqueue is just an infinite queue option that tells the building to keep producing units! I've seen people say that infinite queue takes the skill out of the game. So to them repeatedly returning to a building and queueing up more units is a skill. I'm not debating that it is in fact a skill, but I don't think it's fun and I think spending less time on this and more time on other parts of the game would be preferrable.

      From http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display .cgi?action=ct&f=1,26176,0,10

      Holy crap u want the auto queue from AoT!!!!!. This was probably the WORST feature in AoT and you want it in AoE3. When I heard AoE3 was not going to have autoqueue, it was one of the happiest days of my life. I pray to God ES don't mess up and put autoque in a patch or expansion.

      NO AUTOQUE!

      These sort of opinions are why there is no 'infinite-queue' option in recent releases Age of Empires III and Rise of Legends. It's not that the developers don't know how to put it in because it's in Age of Mythology: Titans and Rise of Nations. If you feel that there is not enough interface improvement it may partly be that people because actually fighting against these changes!

    31. Re:Automation by Shilkanni · · Score: 1
      ...when Civ IV has been out for months. I never bought Civ IV. Id been waiting and hoping for a more playable Civ. What finally arrived was a Civ that takes just as many clicks, but with a new animated 3D UI.

      I know this has already been mentioned, and I'm not saying the game is perfect, but the primary example in the article is terrible. Civ4 has significantly reduced the number of clicks in several ways

      • Gameplay changes to encourage less cities. The optimal strategy in Civ 1,2,3 was building as many citites as possible.
      • Ability to easily select and give commands (including waypoints/command lists) to multiple units.
      • Ability to easily select and give build orders to multiple cities at the same time

      Of course you can micromanage every turn to squeeze every last drop out, but there are a lot of new improvements to help you avoid this if you want. I found Civ 4 to be a breeze to play compared to Civ 2, 3, and Freeciv, so I think the FA author has picked one of the worst possible examples I can think of.

      (Keeping with the 'What next?' meme...) In tomorrow's news: "Quake: Why the focus on single player?" and "World of Warcraft needs more time sinks".

    32. Re:Automation by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1
      Another feature that would work well for RTS is to have 2 or more people working on the same team (online obviously). Not 2 separate teams who happen to work together, but the same team where they can both control the same units. That way, you could have one guy in control of guarding the base, while the other guy fights the battle, and maybe a third person to go off on scouting missions.
      That's an awesome idea! I see somebody commented that you could do this in Starcraft? I never noticed that feature.

      The ultimate extension of this would be a MMORG where each player played one soldier (of differing ranks) in an army, with opportunities for promotion. I think some air-strike games have done something with this, but I haven't played them.

    33. Re:Automation by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1
      It seems to me that Philip Goetz - despite writing six pages and appending weighty academic references at the end of his piece - is mostly just complaining that he doesn't like this particular style of game.
      Sure, you could put it that way - and what's wrong with that? I don't like the style of game where the point is micromanagement and fast clicking. And I'd like to have other styles available. And they aren't. Leave micromanagement available as an option, but give us another option, too.

      And I don't think that Civ "is" the micromanagement style of game. Civ is bigger than that. I think that a UI with less micromanagement would play to Civ's strength as a strategy game of very wide scope.

    34. Re:Automation by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1
      On one hand, you're right - I didn't give Civ IV a fair shake, mostly because my 3-year-old computer wasn't powerful enough to keep up with the 3D user interface, which made it painful to play.

      On the other hand, you're missing the point (or, rather, one of the several points of the article). It isn't necessary to think about individual units. Players typically must use a whole bunch of units to accomplish some task. Instead of grouping all those units together (like you're advocating), why not just deal with the task? Say "I want to clear this area of swamp", or "I want to settle this peninsula", instead of directing a lot of units this way and that.

    35. Re:Automation by Shilkanni · · Score: 1

      Fair enough, and I read and article and agree with most of what was said. That's the main reason I thought it was a pity that you Civ 4 as an example. It made some pretty good interface innovations for the 4th game in a series.

      I guess I had a slower computer at the time I played Civ 3 and felt it's 3d graphics detracted from being able to play the game and that Civ 4 didn't suffer from that issue, but I recognise it definitely does, and has probably unnecessarily steep requirements for a solid Turn Based strategy game.

      Civ4 could make some significant improvements yet, but I think it has 'refocused' this kind of game and made it playable again. A reworking of some interface concepts, especially giving strategic level commands to units & workers is definitely overdue.

      It's sad that we no longer see significant interface innovation like the step up from Warcraft II/Red Alert -> Total Annihilation. There's a lot of room for improvement in this area but people keep settling for a rehashed interface with maybe one 'cool new way of doing things'. So many times I play RTS2006 and it's missing great features in CompetitorRTS (2005), PopularRTS (2003), SuckyRTS-with-one-good-feature (2005) and the innovations of OverlookedRTS (2004).

      So if they can't even copy obviously good ideas it may be some time before we see abstraction and complete interface redesign.

    36. Re:Automation by Shilkanni · · Score: 1

      "Fair enough, and I read and article and...."
      Woah, I need to lay off the ands!

  2. That's why... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

    ...I still play Total Annihilation. The interface is simple and easy (although there are many, many multiplayer commands you should learn). I think I typically count 2 mouse clicks to launch an attack, maybe a click and a keystroke, and rarely will I exceed 200 mouse clicks in a single skirmish.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
    1. Re:That's why... by fitten · · Score: 1

      Me too. TA has a great interface but even it could be a little better... for example, I'd like that no unit in a group move faster than the slowest one, that way you could make combined unit forces all stay together as they travel across the map for an attack, instead of getting strung out and chewed up piecemeal.

    2. Re:That's why... by LiquidRaptor · · Score: 1

      Select all the units and hit G for gaurd, then click on the slowest unit. Then tell the slowest unit to go attack, that way they all stay together.

    3. Re:That's why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is very useful, although it seems backwards: To attack, you have to guard? I'll have to try that later. Thanks.

    4. Re:That's why... by Proud+like+a+god · · Score: 1

      I hope you know that the creator of Total Annihilation, Chris Taylor, is making the unofficial sequel, Supreme Commander. It's said to be feature complete and due out very early 2007.

    5. Re:That's why... by Nicolay77 · · Score: 1

      I've read a lot of TA and I tried to play it, but it seems to me that it doesn't have the rock/paper/scissors model that other games (starcraft) have. So it doesn't appeal as much as SC as I though it would based on reviews.

      That and the fact that I was unable to finish the mission against the lots of big ships with such a huge range no matter what I did.

      I'm welcome to suggestions.

      --
      We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
    6. Re:That's why... by Rockenreno · · Score: 1
      I've read a lot of TA and I tried to play it, but it seems to me that it doesn't have the rock/paper/scissors model that other games (starcraft) have. So it doesn't appeal as much as SC as I though it would based on reviews.
      The non-use of the rock/paper/scissors model is what makes Total Annihilation so much better than games like Starcraft! Certain units have advantages over other units, but none has a complete advantage over a single other unit. This avoids the issue of creating certain, mostly useless, units to defend against specific enemies. Instead, all units have a fighting chance. I always loved it when one of my Stumpy tanks took out an airplane :)
      --

      Forecast for tomorrow: A few sprinklings of genius with a chance of DOOM!
    7. Re:That's why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. TA is pretty much the Anti R/S/P game (though there are mods that make it more R/S/P).

      One of the greatest aspects of TA is the fact that micro management is pretty much optional in the large picture. In a RSP game, you need to make sure your R's are hitting their S's and not their P's. In TA, you pretty much mix it up and let fly.

      I don't know which scenario you were playing where this ships were blasting you from afar, but to be fair that's another charm of the game -- there are some LOONNG ranged units available. You just need to field your long range units to hit back, or bring in air power, or build your own ships or submarines. Submarines are particularly nasty against ships.

      But it's a game of production. Build up, build fast, and be confident in the fact that you know those ships are coming for you so you can be ready for them when they do.

    8. Re:That's why... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Total Annihilation employs a different model than Starcraft, to make strategies more interesting. One of the most annoying strategies in a game like Starcraft is attrition, that is just playing defensively until the opponent runs out of resources. In TA, you never actually run out of resources to mine, so playing defensively is actually a losing strategy. Also, don't play the campaigns, they are the worst part of the game (what the hell were they even thinking when they made those??) -- play in skirmish mode against a few computers, or multiplayer with a few friends. It even allows for a LAN spawn if you happen to be playing over a LAN with a single CD. Personally, I cannot play mutliplayer anymore, because I have modded my TA install too much (I installed a third "race", called The Lost Legacy), but the 3rd party AIs I installed actually provide some challenge, at least when 3 or 4 computers are allied against me.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    9. Re:That's why... by Firefly1 · · Score: 1
      In TA, you never actually run out of resources to mine, so playing defensively is actually a losing strategy.
      And let's not forget that 'resources' happens to include wrecked units and buildings, which can be broken down for metal (Battlezone does this as well). Even more fun: among the additional units which can be found on the official TA site is a high-end Core KBot codenamed 'Necro'; this stealthed beauty can resurrect structures and units from hulks, but such post-mortem capture is impossible if the subject is thoroughly gibbed.
      Further, defensive play is complicated by the presence of theater artillery (Big Bertha/Intimidator, IIRC) and the fact of the interceptor missiles (the counter for the nukes) having a per-round cost above and beyond that of the structure. This latter fact applies to the nukes as well, as is the case in Starcraft.
      --
      - White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
    10. Re:That's why... by smbarbour · · Score: 1

      Sounds like you should look into Spring. It brings Total Annihilation up to modern standards.

      True 3D environment, deformable terrain, Multiplayer internet lobby.

      The internet lobby sets up games for you. It will ensure that you have the map and whatever mods required (which are all provided as downloads within the lobby).

      As an added bonus, multiple players can control a single faction (i.e. one person can make sure things are being built while another fights the war.

    11. Re:That's why... by Nicolay77 · · Score: 1

      Sounds good!

      I'm looking at their homepage and watching the screenshots.

      --
      We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
    12. Re:That's why... by Shilkanni · · Score: 1

      This works and I do really like the 'Guard' interface of TA, and how it's a versatile way of saying follow, protect, and fight with. However, if the unit you're guarding dies they will stop following. If there's any area TA could improve it's in formations and pathfinding.

    13. Re:That's why... by Toynbert · · Score: 1

      aww, you beat me to it... also look at http://www.supcomuniverse.com/ if you are more interested in Supreme Commander, the features you should look for are automated building and rebuilding of your base by a base commander unit, automated unit building by factories, and scheduled/timed attack plans.

  3. Another subject not decsribing the message by Klaidas · · Score: 0

    You should better count your legs/head/hand/fingers movement when you go shopping.
    When you get the number, maybe using a PC won't be so bad at all.

  4. Civ != RTS by beavis88 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sorry. It's just not.

    But, Civ 4 is a lot better than Civ 3 in terms of opportunites for less clicking and scrolling. I really don't see the point in bitching about the interface of a ~5 year old game...

    1. Re:Civ != RTS by nutshell42 · · Score: 1
      But, Civ 4 is a lot better than Civ 3 in terms of opportunites for less clicking and scrolling. I really don't see the point in bitching about the interface of a ~5 year old game...

      Oh yeah Mr Know-it-all? So he plays the current instead of the previous incarnation of the game, he sees that someone had the same idea he had but years ago and more or less fixed it, he now can't write a 6-page article for his site, which doesn't get /.ed and therefore doesn't get all those people clicking on ads, gets into financial troubles and decides to fire that guy who didn't write articles just because they were superfluous.

      To be fair he mentions Civ4 but just to assert that it isn't any better than Civ3 with the same attitude my physics professor used for those parts of proofs that contradicted basic maths (it's a venerable tradition in physics and called proof by obvious obviousity =)

      --
      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
  5. Let's get something straight. by Digitus1337 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Civilization is not a Real Time Strategy game, it is a 4X (eXplore, eXpand, eXploit and eXterminate) Turn Based Strategy game. Turn Based games like Civ do tend to have a lot more micro-management than RTS titles, but either does require quite a bit of mouse work. That said, is there any viable alternative?

    1. Re:Let's get something straight. by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 5, Funny

      >> Civilization... is a 4X (eXplore, eXpand, eXploit and eXterminate) Turn Based Strategy game

      Actually, I think it's an eX-employee, eX-girlfriend, eX-hausted from no sleep, and eX-iled to the basement until you take a bath, Turn Based Strategy game.

    2. Re:Let's get something straight. by the+real+chahn · · Score: 1

      That said, is there any viable alternative?

      Generally, nethack doesn't require too much mouse movement.

    3. Re:Let's get something straight. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    4. Re:Let's get something straight. by Rhys · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes. Work like you don't have to own a frikkin mouse.

      The old civ 1 used the keyboard much better than most of the recent civs. Heck, you could play the whole game using only the keyboard, and I usually did. (it was faster than the mouse) Civs 3 and 4 have been particularly bad about not accepting movement chains -- say you're moving a tank with movement 3 along roads (so move cost = 1/3rd). 9 keypresses will use up your movement. In civ 1, if you knew where you wanted to go you could key in those keypresses as fast as you can type. The game would remember them and catch up later. In recent versions (3 and 4) if you press a key too soon, the game just eats the keypress. Yes yes, "go to" is the solution in that example, but given the spazz-outs that "go to" can produce on railroads in the older civs, I don't tend to trust it. (I've been learning to trust it again in 4)

      This might be a UI decision to make it harder for idiots to screw up by spamming keys, but frankly it sucks. I also have that problem with the wait-at-end-of-turn (which I prefer, but I hate it missing my first "enter" because it is busy animating a unit). Sure, I could turn animations off, but in general that didn't seem to solve my problem. Decide I'm done with my only unit (early-game problem), hit space and enter rapidly and it misses it.

      Also, the new build UI sucks in 4. For one thing, why in god's green earth are the reccomendations not marked when you zoom in to the city level? This has been obviously missing since the beginning and should be there by now. And why are there 3+ lines of things to build (units, city improvments, wonders) and only 2 lines visible at once?

      --
      Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
    5. Re:Let's get something straight. by badasscat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Turn Based games like Civ do tend to have a lot more micro-management than RTS titles, but either does require quite a bit of mouse work. That said, is there any viable alternative?

      I don't think it's about alternatives, and I don't think there's anything wrong with Civ's interface.

      I think the point is RTS games and turn-based games are fundamentally different. It's a pretty egregious mistake to call Civ an RTS and to say it has too many clicks on that basis, IMO, which makes the whole story here (or at least the headline and summary) basically moot.

      Some RTS games may very well require too many clicks. The whole point is the action is happening in real-time, so you want to minimize your work load as much as possible. The interface needs to be streamlined so that you can get done what you need to do quickly.

      Turn-based games, though, are under no such constraints, and in fact part of the reason people still play them is because you don't need to be in such a hurry and can play completely at your own pace.

      The bottom line is they are two different genres that are often chosen by gamers for completely opposite reasons. Those who want action-oriented strategy buy RTS games; those who want more depth and planning buy turn-based games. It is a huge mistake to suggest that turn-based games need to be more like real-time games, which is in effect what's being suggested by lumping both genres in together. Both genres in fact exist to counterbalance each other.

      I do remember playing the original Myth and feeling like I literally just didn't have enough time to deal with the interface before my guys got slaughtered. So this is a big concern in real RTS games. But using Civilization as an example of what's wrong with the RTS genre is just incorrect on many different levels.

    6. Re:Let's get something straight. by coaxial · · Score: 1

      In a RTS, better intelligence would be good. Most notably, when to withdrawl. If you're not constantly working the battle, your army can become out manuvered and then killed. Soldiers will move right into the middle of opposing force, promptly become surrounded, then be killed. It would be nice for your army to have the concept of lines or perhaps objectives, or at least have the concept of relative threats. Hell the concept of "hold your fire" would be nice in some games. (I know in warcraft 3, I've had problems with elven archers unhiding too early to shoot at the first enemy that walked past instead of waiting.)

      Because you can't really leave any army to it's own devices, in RTS, a player tends to build one huge army and then move it en masse around the world. No flanking. No pincer movements. No second fronts. No really strategy. Sure you can do a feint to draw a much larger army into a kill zone, but that's about it.

    7. Re:Let's get something straight. by Shadarr · · Score: 1
      I think the point is RTS games and turn-based games are fundamentally different. It's a pretty egregious mistake to call Civ an RTS and to say it has too many clicks on that basis, IMO, which makes the whole story here (or at least the headline and summary) basically moot.
      It's pretty stupid to write an article about how a game which is not part of a specific genre doesn't adhere to the conventions of that genre. Civ IV sucks as a third-person platformer, too. You can't play with a gamepad? OMG WTF?!

      Not only that, but a lot of the interface problems he's whinging about were fixed in Civ IV. As someone upthread noted, you might as well write an article decrying the problems with Windows 95. I can remember having my units so automated in Civ IV that I had nothing to do except click End Turn. If you're clicking as much as he claims, you're either at war with everybody or you're playing the game wrong.
    8. Re:Let's get something straight. by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      Why don't they call that a 4E game?

    9. Re:Let's get something straight. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't they call it EML? Because it sounds gay.

    10. Re:Let's get something straight. by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      Vowels are homosexual? I guess that explains all the Xbox-Wii fighting amongst the youths.

    11. Re:Let's get something straight. by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1

      It's pretty stupid to write a post about someone's article calling them stupid, when you obviously haven't read the article.

    12. Re:Let's get something straight. by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1
      First, I didn't write that Civ was a RTS. The guy who started the slashdot thread did.

      Second, what's wrong with making something better? Yes, you /could/ take hours to make a move in Civ. It's boring. And it makes my friends give up and not play Civ with me.

      Third, the article is about UIs in general - not just for RTS, not just for games.

  6. Is Civ 4 even an RTS? by Xest · · Score: 1

    I was under the impression the Civilisation games are turn based strategy rather than real time strategy games? If the article is about RTS' in general then I can't see the problem, it's usually click to select a unit or click and drag to select multiple. Click on screen to either move, attack or perform an action on whatever is under the cursor then just click maybe a builder unit then menus to choose what to build then click to build it. Most RTS games automate resource gathering even so you don't need to make units do that usually, short of making units launch attacks and decide what to build for you hence automating the game so there's no point playing I can't see how the number of clicks can be reduced. This article seems more like a complaint about Civilisation's UI than RTS games in general.

  7. huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Civ and Civ2 were turn-based and NOT RTS. Isn't Civ3 the same? I can only assume it is so this summary isn't making much sense...

  8. And...? by lucky130 · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't say that's a lot for an RTS; a good War3 player seems to have, on average, 100+ actions per minute.

    1. Re:And...? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Which was the main reason I hated War3. Too freaking much micromanagement. I was a huge Kohan fan when it was still played however.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:And...? by lucky130 · · Score: 1

      And that's one of the reasons I like War3 (of course, I was also a big fan of Starcraft). To each their own I guess.

    3. Re:And...? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      A good WC3 player can probably win with 60 APM aswell, depends on how intelligent your clicks and actions are, some guys probably spit out 300 and lose anyway ;)

      But yes, in general more clicks probably mean better control of the units, thought I doubt anyone can make 300 useful actions per minute.

    4. Re:And...? by Knetzar · · Score: 1

      See, I love starcraft (and still play it) but I couldn't get into WC3. I can't pay attention to that many details at once. Get rid of the heros, and I think I could handle it...or even better, give me starcraft with the WC3 interface.

    5. Re:And...? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I actually liked Starcraft too, but with War3 you had to split your attention so much between your early hero clearing out the NPC mobs near the base for some XP and gold while building your base while remembering that if you're 5 seconds late on clicking that next building in your base you're probably going to be rushed and killed.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
  9. In a word: YES! by gentimjs · · Score: 1

    I cant count the games of starcraft I've lost because I couldnt activate all the unit abilities quickly enough through the hotkeys and such ....
    It would be nice if RTS's had some meta-level "ai strategy for my own stuff" setting, so that you could set your units to auto-use the killer special abilities (or whatever) while patroling on guard duty instead of the default wimpy attacks (or whatever)

    1. Re:In a word: YES! by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Definitely, automatic ability use (where appropriate) should be standard for all games with abilities. When I'm moving units in a group I don't want to constantly single out a unit or two to use their special abilities.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:In a word: YES! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was going to suggest you try TA:Spring, but then I recognised your name from their forum :).

  10. I'll just give up RTS games and go play Diablo! by KatchooNJ · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ya know something... this article opened my eyes. Before I get carpal tunnel, I'm going to uninstall my RTS games and load back on Diablo! Weee!!

    Click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click... click...

    --
    "Never give up, for that is just the time and place when the tide will change." -Harriet Beecher Stowe ^_^
  11. lol, 422 + 290 actions? by aliquis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    lol!

    422 mouse clicks is much?! Go watch the APM for say Grubby in WC3 or whatever korean in Starcraft and then come back and talk about the amount of actions. Thought their games really ARE RTS, isn't Civilization turn based?

    1. Re:lol, 422 + 290 actions? by Bluebottel · · Score: 1

      In terms of high APM (Actions Per Minute) Grubby is a nobody. Go watch the top korean Starcraft players instead. In WC3 high APM is around 200, in Starcraft thats about average, for good/expert players that is.

    2. Re:lol, 422 + 290 actions? by Muramasa · · Score: 1

      Most Starcraft progamers average closer to 300 APM. Obviously, in really long games the players APM drops. Players like Nada, Xellos, and July are know to average closer to 400, as well as several less know gamers.

  12. Too many... what? by LSD-OBS · · Score: 2, Funny

    For a second there, I swear it said "too many chicks". There was a new tab opened to www.ebgames.com before I even had the chance to reparse!

    --
    Today's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. -- Hunter S. Thompson
  13. Eating steak, too much chewing? by cowscows · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Uhhh...are people buying the game and having fun? If so, then I think it's safe to say that the number of clicks is just fine.

    If it's too many clicks for you personally, then maybe you should go play a different game. I know it's hard to believe, but you as an individual are not the intended market for every developer out there.

    --

    One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    1. Re:Eating steak, too much chewing? by Xofer+D · · Score: 1
      Uhhh...are people buying the game and having fun? If so, then I think it's safe to say that the number of clicks is just fine.
      It seems to me that if the interface could be improved, perhaps more people would buy the game and have fun. If that wasn't a goal of game developers, they'd be quite happy to stop worrying after two people bought the game and had fun with it.
      --
      The Signal/Noise ratio can be improved in two ways. Remaining silent is the OTHER way.
    2. Re:Eating steak, too much chewing? by DingerX · · Score: 1

      You're right.

      And plenty of people are buying steamer tickets. Why should we worry about Jet transport?

      Sure, the click-fests of RTSs and strategy games sell copies, but that doesn't mean they exploit the market potential to the fullest. I'll still enjoy a game like Battlefront's Combat Mission series, but most people won't, and the reason is because they're forced to micromanage a battalion down at the squad level. When I describe a game afterwards, I don't talk about the individual squads most of the time, but about how the companies and sometimes platoons moved. A game that simulated higher-level combat command, with the same granularity as Combat Mission, but that behaved intelligently with far less user input, would be a game that kicked ass.

      Of course, there's a pragmatic reason why this grand theory of mouse-clicks hasn't gotten hold: AI is hard. Unless your "seven objects" include humans in the loop, you need someone to write really fancy code to predict what it is the person wants to do. The Author's claim that programmers have trouble dealing with abstract objects is a red herring: the problem isn't permitting abstractions such as "the railroad project" to exist, but rather giving them in the game the conceptual value they have for the user.

      To borrow an example from my buddy from Cordova, imagine a game where you command a team of building contractors. You want to build a bathtub. The bathtub, when it is built, is a concrete object in the gamespace. It can have properties and all that, but more importantly, the game has authority on what the bathtub is: to the user, it looks about 4 feet long, has claw feet, is white; to the game, and thus in the underlying reality, the tub uses this polygon model in this space, and this orientation, this texture map, and resides in this block of memory.
      Here, the user can know something about the bathtub, and will, in time, learn some of the quirks of its underlying reality: If I instruct my virtual demo guy to set off a crate of dynamite in the bathtub, the tub will not be damaged; the user will find this dissonance disappointing, but not a deal breaker.
      Now consider the abstraction "building the bathtub". In the mind of the user, this means certain things: Bob, Fred and John bring in a tub, orient it in a certain way, attach claw feet and plumbing, drink a few cokes, charge the owner $2000, and crack a tile. The computer, on the other hand, has to know all this. In particular, it has to know that it's Bob, Fred and John; that working on the bathtub is more important than weatherproofing the front deck, that the bathtub is assembled in a certain way, and in a certain order. You can link all these things to an abstract logic with a list of things to do, and it'll probably "work". But with abstractions, the amount of work required to put the entities in being is much higher, and the number of points of dissonance increases: If the AI pulls in Jose from installing the toilet, and leaves Bob out varnishing the deck, the user's going to be upset in a way that a non-destructable bathtub won't make him.

      So you're back to allowing micromanagement, which then invokes what the author claims is Gresham's Law (well, it is, but not from the player's side: Gresham's Law works here because, when you insert two "currencies" in circulation: automated and manual fall-back, most programmers are going to do a half-assed job on the automated version, since "those really interested can always switch over to manual" -- so, the sonar operator never hears long-range propellers the human ear can; Bob gets stuck in a closest until the human comes over to free him).

      I dunno. I agree with the principle, but not the solution. Perhaps there isn't any single one: in some cases, an intelligent interface and some finite-state AI would go a long way; in others, multiplayer could fill out the hierarchies with humans in the loop; in still others, a stateless neural network might make things interesting.

    3. Re:Eating steak, too much chewing? by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      Uhhh...are people buying the game and having fun? If so, then I think it's safe to say that the number of clicks is just fine.

      If it's too many clicks for you personally, then maybe you should go play a different game. I know it's hard to believe, but you as an individual are not the intended market for every developer out there.

      What? And give up on one's [insert divinity or pantheon here]'s given right to bitch about something in a game?

      You must be new here ;)
    4. Re:Eating steak, too much chewing? by cowscows · · Score: 1

      I understand your point, but I think it's simplifying things a bit. In a good game, the interface isn't just something applied over the gameplay, it's an integral part of it. In Civ III, you have to click a bazillion times because you're controlling so many different units at a fairly specific level. While you might be able to replace the clicking with something else (gestures, keyboard commands), you can't really remove that interaction without it becoming a different kind of game. In the example of Civilization, you'd basically be dumbing down the game in order to get a wider market appeal. That sounds good at first, but there's more to consider. You'd piss off a lot of the series' older fans, who enjoy the complexities of the game. You'd likely get blasted for it by the gaming media. You'd generate a lot of negative publicity for it, and seriously damage a franchise that already has a lot of built-in market. While you might make up for that with a bunch of new to Civilization buyers, you're still taking a risk.

      Then there's the whole question of whether or not that's the kind of game the developer wants to make. While they certainly can't be completely oblivious to market and financial realities, I'd imagine that developers working on something that they want to create and care about would generally result in a better game, even if that game doesn't appeal to everyone.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

  14. no wii for you by dolson · · Score: 4, Funny

    If you get exhausted just from moving your fingers to click and push buttons, then I think you aren't going to be too happy when you hear about the Nintendo Wii's control scheme. What America really needs is a gaming console that lets you control your games simply by chewing food and drinking soda.

    1. Re:no wii for you by sammy+baby · · Score: 2, Funny
      What America really needs is a gaming console that lets you control your games simply by chewing food and drinking soda.


      Actually, I've played several games where the entire user interface is comprised of drinking beer. They belong to a genre usually referred to as "Drinking Games."

      There's also a simplified version of the game, which can even be played solo, called "Drinking." Dedicated fans sometimes like to follow it up with a wind-down round of "Drunk-dialing the ex" or "Puking your guts out."
    2. Re:no wii for you by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 2, Funny

      There's also a simplified version of the game, which can even be played solo, called "Drinking."

      Would you mind writing up a strategy guide for this one? I'm having a bit of trouble on level 6.

    3. Re:no wii for you by Aceticon · · Score: 1

      Is that before or after the "Puke your guts out" end of level boss?

    4. Re:no wii for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that called television? :)

    5. Re:no wii for you by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 1

      Actually, I was hoping for some cheat codes to give a +constitution boost.

    6. Re:no wii for you by steveo777 · · Score: 1

      If you remember the old Bard's Tale series that appeared on the old Apple IIGS's and the like, you could drink to your hearts content, you HP would go up, but the Con would drop... So I'm thinking you must be looking for the wrong stat boost. I'm willing to bet it has something to do with the bladder in a just shy of explosion state for hours. Then pissing ever seven to eight minutes for the rest of the day.

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
    7. Re:no wii for you by JonLatane · · Score: 1

      What's cool about this game is its variety and multitude of endings, and dynamically generated content. Once you've reached level 6, you often find yourself with the option of trying to rescue a princess and bringing her to your place. However, this is not recommended, because after Level 6 it becomes increasingly difficult to distinguish a princess from a monster, and that will give you a temporary stat down of Pride -8. Usually the best option at level 6, if you still want to try and recognize a princess, it's best to play less hard; the game adjusts the difficulty and distinguishing them becomes easier. Another equally fun option, however, is to keep playing until you can barely think anymore. Just make sure, after you've made this decision, not to pass out; you won't die, but when this happens your allies have no option but to use their Shaming attack on you. Recovering consciousness with various shaved body parts and obscene messages written all over you is one of the worst possible outcomes, and will result in Pride -15 and constant mentions of the occurance for at least a month.

      However, once you do decide that it's time to go to sleep, make sure that:
      1)You don't drive. This is an Intelligence -600 move.
      2)You drink plenty of water, Gatorade, and/or juice. Otherwise you'll have Hangover status the next day, which results in -20 all stats for varied amounts of time.

    8. Re:no wii for you by JonLatane · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh, and I forgot to mention: If you do decide to rescue a princess, make sure you keep your levels low, as trying this outcome at extremely high levels (level 13+ makes it impossible for my character) is impossible; your Tool Use and Maintenance scores decrease by about -10 each level, and word spreads among princesses if you don't do a good job saving them.

    9. Re:no wii for you by dolson · · Score: 1

      Channel Surfer Underground 2 is a fun game, but it still requires pushing buttons. :)

  15. No by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

    Why do people always want to dumb down games? RTS and games based around the general idea are always going to be complex and require you to do a lot of clicking, it's in their nature and always will be. These games are liked and designed by the same sort of people, they want to be able to control every little detail and they don't mind if you don't because yo can have your other games.

    Sounds to me like the article writer needs to pick up Advance wars or Super robot taisen games. Both are turn based strategy and in at least SRW's case you sort out your units in menus between missions and then "ingame" you only have to pick it you want to use a special ability, where your units move and what attacks/how they respond to being attacked.

    But then this is comming from a guy who struggles to keep track of his economy in RTS games, so maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture and just "accept I'm not great at everything", but that doesn't mean I want to change things so I'm better.

    --
    I like muppets.
    1. Re:No by AcidLacedPenguiN · · Score: 1

      Actually I would reccomend the game Rise of Legends which reduces necessary clicking or memorizing all the different keystrokes. Basically (off the top of my head) it has a 12 box (4 x 3) button array, for keyboard, the top row has the keys Q W E and R bound to each button, to get the middle row you do shift + Q W E or R and to access the buttom row you do ctrl + Q W E or R.
      So far it has been really intuitive, and its really the first RTS i've gotten into (and played for more than a few times) since C&C and Total Annihilation.
      I've also really enjoyed Dai Senriyaku 7 for the xbox, which is basically a larger version of the Advance Wars series. unfortunately it is too complex for my friends to even want to learn to play :(

      --
      disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
    2. Re:No by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

      Thats why I said the above games. In SRW all you need to know is "Super robot are hard to damage, real robots are hard to hit" everything is more or less contained within that.

      Advance wars is a bit simpler and easier to find. But as we've both pointed out theres more options.

      --
      I like muppets.
  16. Civ != RTS by batmn42 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Civ is a prime example of a game that is NOT real-time strategy. It is a turn-based strategy game.

    Just FYI. I do agree that there are too many clicks in RTS games like Starcraft, Warcraft, and even Rise of Nations.

  17. Not a strategy game if you don't control details! by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 3, Insightful
    But what the article fails to mention is that all those clicks and movements is exactly what makes that game fun. If you play Civ like me, you play against overwhelming odds (on Deity, the AI cheats terribly) and you proudly flaunt your human ingenuity exactly though applying your limited resources in the most optimal way possible on every level of detail. Figuring out how to efficiently transfer an army of railroad builders to another continent takes a lot of planning and clicking, but these sorts of projects inside the game is what makes it worth playing. I'd like to ask any complainers: where exactly do you see the fun in strategy games, if not in conceiving and executing elaborate and detailed strategies? What sort of a real player complains about the tedium of building an efficient railroad network for transporting troops and goods, when exactly such logistical advantages often mean the difference between victory and defeat?

    What are the alternatives, then? Remove all that detail? Oh, I know: How about a big red button that says "apply your human ingenuity in the most optimal way possible". (It would be a big button.) That would certainly save you a lot of mouse clicks. Yeah, that may be what the next generation of strategy games will look like, but I'd rather play Civ.

  18. Dare I say..? by zyl0x · · Score: 1
    I counted the clicks, mouse movements, and keystrokes that it took me to get through one move of Civilization III in the year 1848. Many hours later, when that turn was done, I'd counted 422 mouse clicks, 352 mouse movements, 290 key presses, 23 wheel scrolls, and 18 screen pans to scroll the screen.

    If it takes someone "many hours" to play a single turn in any turn-based game, I would imagine that it's not just the game itself that has a problem.

    Also, like it has been mentioned above, Civ IV made many improvements upon it's predecessor aside from the improved graphics engine. These include, but are not limited to, more tile improvements, more unique units such as great philosophers, engineers, artists, and merchants, addition game modes, expandable mini-map, and better worker until control and automation.

    Looking at screenshots usually isn't a good way to gauge how many technical improvements have been made.
    --
    Blerg.
    1. Re:Dare I say..? by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1

      It took hours because after every single keypress or mouse click, I made a checkmark on a sheet of paper.

  19. Glad he added the last part... by Retroneous · · Score: 1

    "422 mouse clicks, 352 mouse movements, 290 key presses, 23 wheel scrolls, and 18 screen pans to scroll the screen"

    Grand. So the 18 screen pans weren't controlled by the 422 mouse clicks, 352 mouse movements, 290 key presses or 23 wheel scrolls?

    1. Re:Glad he added the last part... by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1

      No. I counted screen pans separately. They're a mouse movement, but they require more time than a movement that doesn't scroll the screen. Try it.

  20. How Not to Write a Thesis by LargeWu · · Score: 4, Funny

    Pick one data point. Make sure it's outdated and unrepresentative. Base it on subjective criteria.

    Seriously the article could have been summarized like this:
    "There's this one real-time strategy game, except it's a turn based game, and it requires too many clicks per turn once the game is sufficiently advanced. Except this problem was mitigated in the next version. Therefore, RTS games require too many clicks."

    1. Re:How Not to Write a Thesis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, especially since many modern RTS games will actually count your clicks and give you an Actions-Per-Minute score at the end, thus saving him tons of work. Idiot.

      Hmm - captcha text of the day = "moaned" :)

    2. Re:How Not to Write a Thesis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There's this one real-time strategy game, except it's a turn based game, and it requires too many clicks per turn once the game is sufficiently advanced. Except this problem was mitigated in the next version. Therefore, RTS games require too many clicks."


      Pretty much unassailable logic if you ask me
    3. Re:How Not to Write a Thesis by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1

      Clue to the clueless: Read an article before you summarize it.

  21. Reign of the twitch gamers... by Beolach · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I used to consider RTS games to be among my top favorite genres, maybe even #1. But it's gotten to the point where they're ruled by the twitch gamers, just like FPS games (which have been among my least favorite genres). WC3 is the main RTS I play right now, and in normal games I really suck bad. So I tend to end up playing custom games, mostly Tower Defence maps.

    The problem I have is that the RT is overruling the S - the Real Time nature of the game means that you don't have enough time to work on a long-term strategy, because you have to defend against immediate threats. But because multi-player is such an important feature to have in mass-market games, it's hard to do away with Real Time, because Turn Based Strategy games are more difficult to correctly implement multiplayer, not on a technical level, but on a "pleases most players" level - you don't want to allow one player to slow down the game for all the other players, but you don't want to rush anyone, either. Also, Turn Based Strategy seem to have this "obsolete/inferior" rap going against them compared with Real Time Strategy, which they really don't deserve.

    I really liked how Majesty removed the twitch-gamer advantage, by removing the low-level control of individual units. I'd probably play Majesty more than WC3, except that WC3 is more popular with my friends.

    --
    Join moola.com, play games to earn money.
    1. Re:Reign of the twitch gamers... by daranz · · Score: 1

      This is what makes games like the Total War series fun... They emphasize strategy, and try to reduce more managerial tasks such as assigning individual workers to building a structure. Total War still remains realtime, however, it doesn't force you to micromanage anything, instead letting you control the big picture. Yes, you still have to make decisions in a timely manner, however, the outcome of the battle isn't determined by how efficently you wrestle with the interface, but rather, by your strategic decisions. IMHO, that's what an ideal RTS should be like - the outcome of the battle shouldn't be determined by who can more efficiently use the interface, and through it micromanage their base construction and armies, but rather, it should be determined by who makes better decisions throughout.

      It is possible to create an RTS that forces the player to think instead of acting as fast as possible. However, the traditional RTS model is definately the most popular out there, and there isn't too much innovation in the genre.

      --
      This is a sig. It is appended to the end of comments I post.
    2. Re:Reign of the twitch gamers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strictly speaking the Total War series is turn based, but combat is real time, and far outpaces any RTS title I'v seen. For anyone who prefers strategy to twitch Total War is definitely the way to go.

    3. Re:Reign of the twitch gamers... by SendBot · · Score: 1

      You might be interested in Bang Howdy then, which is still in beta. It's made by the same people who make yohoho puzzle pirates. (sorry I'm turnign out a project and don't have time to dig up links) There's a lot of fast-paced action, but it operates on a clock-tick operation so you get a chance to queue your actions before your units and everyone else actually move. Of course, there's an advantage to being fast, say if you tell your unit to move to an area first, when the clock ticks you'll get there and the other guy will just get up next to you.

  22. Re:Get some reflexes by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 1

    This guy does make a valid, albeit somewhat cryptic point.

    In RTS games, more buttons/icons/commands are notorious for generating low ratings and sales due to the steep difficulty curve. But for FPS games, players are always trying to bend the rules by doing backwards flying cartwheels for an extra edge. They'd have no problem if you threw in a bunch of new, acrobatic keypresses. Fighter games, too. Maybe it's dependent on the gamer?

  23. Check out supreme commander by imbaczek · · Score: 2, Informative

    SupCom for all those Total Annihilation lovers, where you can issue orders and forget about the units doing them, because you know they'll get executed.

    This game will remove the arcade out of RTS. Check out the trailer or the E3 presentation.

    1. Re:Check out supreme commander by PFI_Optix · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Another vote for Supreme Commander

      From TFA: "The RTS user interface hasn't improved since Total Annihilation (1997), which had more useful unit automation than many current games. Meanwhile, the number of objects our computers can control and animate has increased, and continues to increase, exponentially. The old UI model isn't at the breaking point - it's broken."

      Total Annihilation allowed you to automate most of the less exciting parts of an RTS.

      Need repairs? Put a few construction or repair units on a patrol route through your base. They'll stop to repair any damaged buildings. Want a fighter screen around your base to deal with bombers? Set your airfield's rally point as a patrol route and queue up a few dozen fighters. Speaking of queue...construction queues are virtually unlimited. No more going back and selecting each building to queue up 5 or 9 or 12 units every couple of minutes. The same goes for building construction; they can be queued, so that your entire base is planned and you don't have to select your construction units for every new building.

      If Supreme Commander lives up to its promise of being an heir to TA, it has already addressed much of the problems mentioned in TFA.

      --
      120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
    2. Re:Check out supreme commander by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      For the more immediate TA fix there's Spring which adds many new features like better GUI, full mod support, full 3d, opensourciness and Linux-support. SupCom may be better but it's still so far away...

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    3. Re:Check out supreme commander by Firefly1 · · Score: 1
      Total Annihilation allowed you to automate most of the less exciting parts of an RTS...
      This makes me wonder: why was this degree of possible automation never adopted as the standard in the genre?
      Of course, some titles - such as the Ground Control series, the upcoming Company of Heroes, and even AvP: Extinction - address this by eliminating base-building entirely.
      --
      - White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
    4. Re:Check out supreme commander by Rockenreno · · Score: 1

      I watched Chris Taylor give a demostration of Supreme Commander at the San Diego Comic Con last month and it looks to be excellent. Along the lines of automation, unlimited queues return, patrols are visible from the mini-map level view and can be edited (instead of needing to start the patrol route over to make a change), and you can launch coordinated attacks from multiple groups. This last feature was especially impressive as the separate groups will set their speed such that they arrive at their destination at the same time, even if one group is coming from a completely different direction. Very cool.

      --

      Forecast for tomorrow: A few sprinklings of genius with a chance of DOOM!
    5. Re:Check out supreme commander by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Designers seem to think if you're not constantly clicking you're not playing. For instance I played the demo of the latest Empire Earth RTS - I was really impressed by the management, in many areas it is much, much better than TA! Auto-explore for scouts, picture-in-picture views that you can give orders in... awesome.

      The trouble is that the unit limit is still the same as TA... so they feel they have to give you some busy-work. You have to repeatedly upgrade all of your units by needlessly clicking on each squad individually. You have to manage 14 (I think) resource types. You have to research stuff, but it doesn't give you research trees which it will auto-follow. In short, many more pointless clicks in UI areas that must have been deliberately obfuscated, they're so stupid.

    6. Re:Check out supreme commander by Firefly1 · · Score: 1
      Designers seem to think if you're not constantly clicking you're not playing.
      You, sir, might well have hit the proverbial nail square upon the head here. At this point I ask: 'when/why did this presumption creep into the design of this genre?' To me at least, the term 'strategy' has connotations centered more around mental processes than mouse clicks.
      You have to research stuff, but it doesn't give you research trees which it will auto-follow.
      Koei's Warship Gunner 2 has something of a compromise in this area: when you select an item for development all prerequisite items are automatically queued up (you just have to have the funds to cover everything).
      --
      - White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
  24. Oh hey, he's right! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess I too click too much while playing RTS's! I guess I'll stop liking them now, even though I've loved them for so long. I mean, there's no way I can love something that makes me click so much.

  25. Darwinia by NekoXP · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinia_(computer_ga me)

    Simple but still a fucking bore to control.

    I hope games consoles like the Wii simplify this. Mouse clicks turn to buttons etc. but you can do everything you'd ever want with a mouse. I think waving a pointer or using a stylus just seems easier.. I *LOVE* playing RTS games with my Wacom, it's so much friendlier selecting units that way :)

    1. Re:Darwinia by Eye.Indigo · · Score: 1

      I actually think that Darwinia did a great job at showing that algorythmization in a RTS game is possible and a lot of fun if you learn to think in a new way. Traditionally you have to concentrate on micromanagement all the time. While in Darwinia you only have to do things once.

    2. Re:Darwinia by NekoXP · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the Darwinians are SOOOO fucking stupid. You have to micromanage them around every mountain and tree until they get to some unobtainable version number.

      It does show you can bring out a lot of gaming in very few real actions though.

      Like I said I hope the new controllers f.i on the Wii will encourage designers to think about how you can get things done with one hand, one wavy pointer, and maybe 3 buttons, WHILE reducing the number of actions (it would be too easy to have one of them be a menu button).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seiken_Densetsu

      I always loved the way Square's "Ring Menu" (see Secret of Mana etc.) worked. Mix that with an iPod ClickWheel thing, that would be awesome for an RTS game with a wavy pointer. You could just hold down a button, wave the wand to rotate the wheel and let it select it by letting go of the button. However I think they patented it, or at least Apple probably have a patent now on the same kind of idea :(

    3. Re:Darwinia by Krakhan · · Score: 1

      Could you explain what the hell you mean 'algorythmization'? I doubt you mean that it uses typical algorithms to do stuff, since ALL computer programs use algorithms. Or do you mean that commands tend to be automated through the interface?

      Or I could be completely off, and this could be some feature involving some kind of music remixing with Al Gore?!

  26. Re:Not a strategy game if you don't control detail by Haeleth · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd like to ask any complainers: where exactly do you see the fun in strategy games, if not in conceiving and executing elaborate and detailed strategies? What sort of a real player complains about the tedium of building an efficient railroad network for transporting troops and goods, when exactly such logistical advantages often mean the difference between victory and defeat?

    That's exactly the issue. Coming up with a strategy = fun. The question is, how high-level are your orders going to be?

    If implementing your strategy involves moving individual workers and ships one square at a time, then I'm sorry, but no normal person will enjoy that. Even having "go there" orders doesn't necessarily help. In the old versions of Civ I used to play, you couldn't group units, so you couldn't just say "send these 25 workers to Athens and these 25 to Thermopylae", you had to issue 50 separate orders to units. That's not fun. It doesn't give you any more strategic options, it just makes you click a lot.

    Similarly, in the versions of Civ I played, there were only two ways to build a railway. If you wanted a specific route, you had to build it manually: tell a worker to build a railway on the square it was on, wait for it to finish, move it to the next square, repeat. Alternatively, you could tell it to build a railway from where it was to some other place, but then you lost control of the route and it would build it somewhere stupid and take twice as long as it should have. What you couldn't do was tell a unit to go to a certain point, then from there build a railway via a specific route to some other point. So you either had to give up strategic control, or you had to click a lot.

    Nobody's saying they want games dumbed down. They just want smoother interfaces that make it easier for you to tell the game what your strategy is and how you want it implemented, without forcing you to perform every single step yourself.

  27. Hold on now... by Logan+Smith · · Score: 1

    Lay off. For some people, mouserobic exercise is the only exercise they get!

    --
    Logan Smith
  28. Too Many Clicks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Heaven forbid computer gamers actaully get a little physical excersise. Instead of complaining about how to make video games easier, go outside, get some sun, read a book.

    1. Re:Too many clicks? by qcubed · · Score: 1

      ...yeah, that'll learn me good that I should press the preview button first.

      Reposting for better readability:

      First things first, and said by others: Civ is an example of a TBS, not an RTS. While he doesn't explicitly come out and say that Civ is an RTS, he conflates the two by then launching into UI issues with RTSes.

      Complaining about Civ because it has too many clicks is like complaining about a database because it has too many datapoints. Why? Civ's a game where you're in control of a whole empire. Rome wasn't built in one click and lots of automation (which, honestly, one could argue would have made the city better designed, but also likely lacking a lot of charm).

      The problem with the "rule of seven" in a game such as Civ is that you end up with an overly ambitions, poorly executed disaster like Master of Orion III--everything was abstracted to a level where it was "easy" to maintain an empire, "easy" to play a game with turns lasting fewer than 5 minutes, and still ostensibly being in the true vein of TBS games. One had all the data of the game available within five mouse-clicks, but you could just as easily ignore it and click on the "next turn" button.

      Problem was, it wasn't very fun--and it wasn't just the case of poor execution. When you have so much automation, a game of that complexity almost gets "dumbed-down", almost too simplistic in its interface and presentation to the player. There is a lack of fine-grained control, as most of the more powerful and useful tools become so hidden or not even shown (like some OSes...). Instead of recognizing that increasing production in one region will cause cascade effects that may lead to unhappiness in three other regions, lessened treasuries, and bad research, because it's so "intuitive" and "helpful", the pull-this-lever type simplicity obscures that sort of insight into the Rube Goldberg-esque mechanics of the game.

      Now, admittely, this is where the issue lies--what's fun for one isn't fun for others; honestly, I admit that I've played Civ for so long that all the keyboard shortcuts are placed into my memory, and this mouse-click UI problem he thinks exists, I don't think is even an issue. He might well enjoy a game like MOO3; if so, I'll send him my copy.

  29. Re:Get some reflexes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Voice_of_all_reason, I don't know how you do it but you seem to be stalking the same AC that posted the "Bill Gates, 1995" comment. Unless you're into 6ft tall rugby playing englishmen I suggest you reconsider your course of action.

    My original, and rather flippant point, was why all the complaining about key presses and mouse clicking when you've got to do a lot more in most other game genres. If I wanted to write it out long-hand I'd have considered logging in :D

  30. Mouse Wear Champion - Tie Fighter by Dareth · · Score: 1

    Destroyed many a good Logitech mouse playing Tie Fighter. But I am qualified to fly any craft in the Imperial Fleet!

    Anyone ever play it with a joystick?

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
    1. Re:Mouse Wear Champion - Tie Fighter by KatchooNJ · · Score: 1

      Ah! I loved that game. I played it with a mouse and also with a joystick. I think the joystick was definitely better. :) I believe only Tie Fighter let you use the mouse. Later games in that series required a joystick, I believe.

      --
      "Never give up, for that is just the time and place when the tide will change." -Harriet Beecher Stowe ^_^
  31. Any RTS games with scripting interfaces? by plopez · · Score: 1

    Seriously, I like an occaisional RTS game but also sometimes am annoyed by the low level granularity. Is there an RTS with some sort of rule scripting interface? I haven't played in a few years but something like:
    "Build railroad to point x then transfer workers to building mine and refinery" might work.

    Or how about an economically driven interface like subsidize workers with salary $X for railroad work ad when complete, change to subsidy $Y for mining work and let each worker decide where to put in the effort. Sort of an ecomnomic simulation.

    Any info on this?

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:Any RTS games with scripting interfaces? by no.17 · · Score: 1

      Not really the four X's, but still good fun- though there's not scripting, its a pretty good economics sim! http://www.openttd.com/

    2. Re:Any RTS games with scripting interfaces? by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      Tropico somehow matches this economically driven interface. You can directly interract on some points with your guys (like murder an opposition leader), but your main actions is to create and configure workplaces and homes and let the people manage their career and leisure.

      However, the problem in that game is the same as the simcities, it's not much the number of clicks but the long periods in which you just don't have anything too do.

  32. More fun by Drakin020 · · Score: 0

    Yeah but this also adds to the level of intensity. Would you just rather click....then wait a few hours for something to happen?

    Giving a game more options and allowing you to control more things and how things works gives the game a much different feel that a typical RTS. It can also change the outcome greatly when you have more options.
    It keeps you on your feet.

    --
    The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
  33. one of the competitive factors by RandomMonkey · · Score: 1
    I am a big WC3 fan (RandomMonkey on Azeroth), so I may be biased. The mouse clicking is one of the major competitive factors involved with winning a WC3 game. There are many, many things Bliz could do to allow you to automate things more, but they intentionally decided to leave as a controlled aspect. It is just one more thing you can do better than your opponent. If you automate everything, you set everything up and then sit back and watch to see what happens, and that gets boring.

    Bliz even lowered the army size from 200 in StarCraft to 90 in WC3 (and now 100 in TFT). They noted that with the giant army size the game tended to resolve to campers that would attack with a mass, and circumvented most of the tactical aspect of the game.

    Also, at least with WC3, the game is not won completely by the speed of your mouse clicks. The best player tend to have the highest APM's, but is not always the case. Tactics and Strategy still play a huge role.

    And as you waste your life playing a game like WC3 (or a FPS for that matter) your speed tends to go up. Play more!!!! ;-)

    1. Re:one of the competitive factors by Firefly1 · · Score: 1
      If you automate everything, you set everything up and then sit back and watch to see what happens, and that gets boring... Not 'everything', just much of the back-end work, which is what TA does so well. You still have to lay your structures out appropriately, but it's convenient to know that once the foundations are set you can leave the constructor(s) to it and focus on your combat forces. The tenets of success in WC3 - in your words, tactics, strategy, and APM; to which I will add flexibility - don't change.
      --
      - White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
  34. Man up, Nancy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go complain about an actual RTS like Rise of Nations or Command and Conquer, or go back to playing with your barbies.

  35. Two Quick Points: by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    1) Civ is not an RTS game. RT stands for "Real-Time." Civ is most certainly turn-based and not real-time in any way whatsoever. That right there is enough to make me discard the article... if you don't know the difference between a real-time and a turn-based game, you shouldn't be writing gaming articles.

    2) Many people like micro-management. I'm not one of them personally, but I have a unique and innovative solution: I don't buy games that require a lot of micro-management!

  36. Try a Different Map size! by Prien715 · · Score: 1

    Because I hate the clicking so much, I play smaller maps and give them a few more AI players (and put resources on "balanced" so there's one iron/bronze/oil/etc per player). Really, controlling about 5-6 cities is about the level of micromanagement I like. I finished a whole game last night in a couple hours (Space Race victory in 2005; almost won by domination). With 10-20 cities (standard map), you really need automation in order to make the game fun.

    The traditional problem with strategy games is late game there's just too many units/cities. Limiting map size limits the latter variable which limits the former.

    The most interesting approach I've seen to micro was Crusader King where you larger landowners gain titles and are forced to delegate land to vassals or else their empire becomes inefficient. Of course, vassals can revolt/etc but it's a great way to own half of europe without a lot of micro as your controlling 15 dukes rather than 80 pieces of land. It makes the automation aspect part of the game rather than trying to build a wizard around it which I appreciate.

    --
    -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
  37. I love RTS by am0nrahx · · Score: 1

    As an avide gamer, I like the fast pace that some of the RTS games offer. I really don't mind having to click 1M times during a game. I play C&C Generals & Zero Hour and it amazes my buddies when I have a base built and ready to go in under 5 minutes. I have no problem with clicking a million times to do stuff. In fact, the more clicks the better.

    1. Re:I love RTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're just the kind of twitch gamer he is complaining about. Like lots of clicks, and less time thinking.

    2. Re:I love RTS by am0nrahx · · Score: 1

      You obviously do not play RTS that much. Command and Conquer Generals for instance doesn't really take that long to think. Civ4, I wouldn't doubt the time to plan out your strategy.

  38. Civ != RTS Vista. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "But, Civ 4 is a lot better than Civ 3 in terms of opportunites for less clicking and scrolling. I really don't see the point in bitching about the interface of a ~5 year old game..."

    Yeah. Let's bitch about something that's still in beta.

    1. Re:Civ != RTS Vista. by beavis88 · · Score: 1

      Beta? Civ 4 has been out for nearly a year, at least where I live...

  39. Think of Ender's Game by zapp · · Score: 1

    Ok, I did just finish re-reading Ender's Game, but it's quite amazing that the book was copyrighted in 1977, and it basically describes what we now consider RTS games (among other things we now think commonplace like "the nets", the children's "desk", etc). Anyway:

    As a commander, Ender has a level of control from individual ships up through the entire fleet. He has trained his toon leaders to follow guidance and think on their own. He can give quick verbal commands. I think if it were pulled off (as hard as it would be), that would be the ultimate RTS. It's not about who can click fastest and group units properly, it's about STRATEGY, right? Anything that gets in the way of that should be taken out of the game or streamlined.

    --
    no comment
  40. Too many clicks? by qcubed · · Score: 1

    First things first, and said by others: Civ is an example of a TBS, not an RTS. While he doesn't explicitly come out and say that Civ is an RTS, he conflates the two by then launching into UI issues with RTSes. Complaining about Civ because it has too many clicks is like complaining about a database because it has too many datapoints. Why? Civ's a game where you're in control of a whole empire. Rome wasn't built in one click and lots of automation (which, honestly, one could argue would have made the city better designed, but also likely lacking a lot of charm). The problem with the "rule of seven" in a game such as Civ is that you end up with an overly ambitions, poorly executed disaster like Master of Orion III--everything was abstracted to a level where it was "easy" to maintain an empire, "easy" to play a game with turns lasting fewer than 5 minutes, and still ostensibly being in the true vein of TBS games. One had all the data of the game available within five mouse-clicks, but you could just as easily ignore it and click on the "next turn" button. Problem was, it wasn't very fun--and it wasn't just the case of poor execution. When you have so much automation, the game almost gets dumbed-down, almost too simplistic in its interface and presentation to the player. There is a lack of fine-grained control, as most of the more powerful and useful tools become so hidden or not even shown (like some OSes...). Instead of recognizing that increasing production in one region will cause cascade effects that may lead to unhappiness in three other regions, lessened treasuries, and bad research, because it's so "intuitive" and "helpful", the pull-this-lever type simplicity obscures that sort of insight into the mechanics of the game. Now, admittely, this is where the issue lies--what's fun for one isn't fun for others; honestly, I admit that I've played Civ for so long that all the keyboard shortcuts are placed into my memory, and this mouse-click UI problem he thinks exists, I don't think is even an issue. He might well enjoy a game like MOO3; if so, I'll send him my copy.

  41. Sounds like someone is playing wrong? by kinglink · · Score: 1

    Personally I set up good governors and let them run the city, I can get by with around 10 mouse clicks, and one screen pan. Or I use the Go to function.

    If you have to micromanage everything however you're milage will definatly vary, but that's a choice, not a part of the game.

    Why is he panning? There's a map. 3000+ mouse clicks, 290 key presses? Is it just me or does he just seem to be trying to rack up the number of things he's doing to make a point.

    And as stated a Civ game isn't RTS. RTS need a much faster UI system than Civilization.

  42. like the caps lock key by matt328 · · Score: 1

    Y'know, this whole life thing, its like all I ever get done doing is breathing in, then breathing out. And what the hell's with this locomotion? You mean I gotta put one foot in front of the other how many times?

    --
    Check out the cave on the east side of lake Hylia. Strange and wonderful things live in it.
  43. Rubbish argument - rubbish conclusions by zalle · · Score: 1

    Yes, this wasn't his point (though it was an argument he made for his case, though a very very bad one), but I think the old geezer is missing the reason why the young whippersnappers are better than him in RTSes: they practice. The koreans who excel in Starcraft aren't 14 nor full of testosterone - they practice. Seems like the kids are doing 3 clicks a second? Try figuring out the keyboard commands, and you might get why. If you can't be bothered to learn how to play a new game, whether it's bowling or Total Annihilation, you won't get to see the finer nuances of strategy in that game. And even more case in point - once you've played a game like Starcraft enough, the way you think about it becomes similar to the way he describes chess masters thinking about their game.

    Oh, and Civ isn't an RTS.

  44. Some thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because I'm at work, I've not RTFA. From what I'm seeing here it's not so great.
    BUT, I'm a BIG RTS fan and I have some observations. To date, my favorite RTS is Total Annihilation (which is about to be re-born as Supreme Commander). This game did everything possible to make the U.I. user-friendly: you can select all units of one type or class with a simple keystroke, attacking can be very automated or very pinpointed at single units, you could queque up up to 100 units (or more?) to be built by a factory, units could follow waypoints, etc.
    CONTRAST THIS with Starcraft (Starcrap to me). You are NOT ALLOWED to queue > 5 units from a factory. This game is a click-fest with clicking cream on top. I hated it to the point I uninstalled it and sold my copy.
    If I were to make a RTS, I would start from the UI that TA used, and try to improve it. Many game makers forget how many keys are on the keyboard and how powerful that can be. Sure it may slightly increase the learning curve, but it will make the overall user experience much better in the end.

  45. Details are not strategy by Chemisor · · Score: 1

    What makes Civ enjoyable is the strategy, but all those clicks the article complains about is about tactics. Deciding how many workers to assign to building a railroad is strategy, telling each worker how to get to the building site is tactics. Figuring out the best way to transport a hundred units to another continent is strategy, actually trasporting them is tactics. The computer can not do strategy, but it can do tactics. In fact, it can do tactics a million times better and faster than any human. Your "human ingenuity" of applying your limited resources in the most optimal way possible is vastly inferior to the computer's. You can not keep track of all details simultaneously, the computer can. You are not going to model different allocation strategies and pick the optimal one, the computer will. Face it, the computer will always win at micromanagement; it's what the computer is for, and when you try to do the computer's job, it is no fun at all, being mechanical, tedious, and unrewarding.

    1. Re:Details are not strategy by Astarica · · Score: 1

      I think it's funny people that although we think of humans as better than computer at strategy, the so-called strategy games are a contest of how well you can micromanage/click things, where the computer are infinitely better than us. You can do 100 or 500 actions per minute? The computer can do thousands per minute if not more and never make a mistake. And yet we somehow pride in being able to play like an inferior computer by clicking very fast.

    2. Re:Details are not strategy by Shilkanni · · Score: 1

      It's not that funny :-) Firstly, I think most of the pure "actions per minute" micromanagement is not really 'strategy' but the execution of the strategy. We may be better at concieving or visualising a strategy but the computer should obviously be able to enact it faster.

      Do you know of any RTS where computer-controlled AI will beat an experienced human player? In most RTSes and especially in Turn Based games like Civilization the computer will get massive resource bonuses on the higher difficulty levels to keep them competitive.

      The computer AI can win at chess these days, but a Computer + Human team is better than any human OR any computer independly, generally to be the case because humans are better at strategy and computers are better at tactics.

  46. To be fair to the author... by Flaming+Babies · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...he didn't call Civilization III a RTS game.

    His comment was:
    Overclick isn't limited to Civilization. Real-time strategy games will leave you with even worse carpal tunnel.
    There are no mentions in the rest of the article about Real-time.
    It's just a poor title for the summary.

    --
    The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
  47. OMF GAWD.. by chrispycreeme · · Score: 1

    ..playing is way too much work!

  48. conversely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I find war in civ3 a real drag until about 1800. After that, you get railroads, fask moving units, and so on, which really simplifies things.

  49. Re:Chicks... by usrbinallen · · Score: 1

    Remember where you are. Most /.ers won't get it.

    --
    Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. Albert Einstein
  50. Dungeon Keeper/Evil Genius? by FreyarHunter · · Score: 1

    Remember these games? They fall under the real-time strategy games of course, and definately reduce the amount of movement you have to do in order to actually play it. I mean, I can get money if I have a good sized treasury right next to a good set of gems with at least one imp.

    Your dungeon heart is under attack!

    --
    Empathetic-- 94% You tend to walk in someone else's shoes a hundred miles before pointing a finger.
  51. RTFA by non0score · · Score: 1

    Wow, not only am I surprised at the number of people who got modded +5 Interesting/Insightful/etc for pointing out that Civ4 isn't an RTS, merely because these same people only read the /. summary instead of TFA, I'm even more surprised at the number of moderators that didn't RTFA and gave those +1 Interesting/Insightful/etc points. People, RTFA. Nowhere in the article does it mention that Civ 4 is an RTS. If you RTFA, you would've saw this:

    "Overclick isn't limited to Civilization. Real-time strategy games will leave you with even worse carpal tunnel."

    Oh yeah, shit, how could I be so stupid? Looks like the submitter didn't RTFA himself! You would think that the author of a Gamasutra article would know about what genre of games he's playing before writing an article up, no? Oh yeah, it looks like he does!

    Note: if the original author of the article altered the article itself after the story was posted on /., or someone else already mentioned this, then I retract my case.

  52. If it's too much for you... by Rockinsockindune · · Score: 1

    Just pop in a movie. That's what 4 clicks for about 2 hrs. of entertainment. If that still burns too many calories, call your mom down to the basement and have her put it on for you.

    --
    I abuse commas, I cannot help myself.
  53. What I find funny is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That after making Alpha Centauri (released Jan 99) and putting in full automation there for workers, cities, etc. That they didn't do the same in Civ 3 (October 01) when it was made by the same company under a similar engine.

  54. Carpe Tunnel by umbrellasd · · Score: 1
    I don't play RTS games anymore because the clicking is so annoying. The games are so complicated with all the units and it is a definite skill that takes long hours of practice to learn keybindings and effective manipulations. I stopped when the UI was getting in the way of the strategy: as in, I would look at a situation and say, "Ok, I need those units over there, this guy has to go here, these three heal those 6, and that guy needs to scout NE." Then I would realize just how irritating it was to make that happen when I was already moving on thoughtwise to large strategic issues and next things I would want to do.

    At that points virtually all of these games became tedious and boring...for me, anyway. I really loved Starcraft, Sim City, Civilization, etc. But I won't play them anymore other than briefly for nostalgic value and when I do I get annoyed straight away by the bottleneck of the UI.

  55. Come on by kmhebert · · Score: 1

    What, your first response wasn't dorky enough, you had to tack on this extremely unfunny addendum?

    --
    Regular Meta Moderators are not more likely to get mod points.
  56. Garbage Question In, Garbage Answer Out by nick_davison · · Score: 1

    'Could games like Civilization benefit from putting their interfaces on a diet?

    Simple answer, "Yes, move along."

    He mentions Civ 3.

    Civilization's developers, Firaxis, streamlined the game significantly for Civ4. As the developers themselves felt that, for all the flexibility, it could use a UI/click count diet, the answer's clearly "yes."

    It's kind of like waiting until six months after an election in which a new President is elected and asking, "Is the country ready for a change from the policies of [the last administration]?"

    1. Re:Garbage Question In, Garbage Answer Out by nick_davison · · Score: 1

      In other news...

      "Are gamers ready for something more complex than Pong?"

  57. Re:TA campaigns by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1
    IIRC, the mines do get depleted eventually - not to zero, but to a very low output.

    I didn't think the campaigns were terrible so much as that they were of wildly uneven difficulty. The easy but time-consuming ones were more irritating than the difficult ones.

  58. Re:A viable alternative by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1
    First, I didn't say Civ was a RTS. To quote from the article: "Overclick isn't limited to Civilization. Real-time strategy games will leave you with even worse carpal tunnel."

    Second, the sections called "Objects don't have to be objects" and "On-line vs. off-line control" present what I think are some viable alternatives.

  59. Reply by the author by DoctorPhil · · Score: 1
    I started replying to posts individually, but it seems most of them were pretty similar.

    Very few of the people who posted seem to have read the article. For instance, I didn't say Civ was a RTS game.

    Yes, I was unfair to Civ IV. I feel bad about that. All I did was download the demo and play it for a few hours. I didn't see any evidence of the sophisticated UI that people spoke about here. It might have been there, but it wasn't obvious. I really should have played longer, but my 3-year-old computer wasn't powerful enough to keep up with the animation, so I gave up.

    But pointing out that unit automation is BETTER in Civ 4 is beside the point. I'm arguing that unit control, at all, is not necessary. That's why I felt I'd played Civ IV enough once I'd convinced myself it still had a unit-based UI. I'm arguing for a radically different user interface. Units are there to accomplish tasks. In a game with hundreds of units, you're typically only focused on a few tasks per turn. If you have a task-based interface instead of a unit-based interface, you could accomplish that task with fewer clicks. No one seems to have understood this. It isn't just delegation. It isn't about grouping units together, or adding waypoints (tho both are good things). I'm saying you could control what happens to almost the same level of detail, by re-conceptualizing the user interface, organizing it around tasks rather than around units. You could still point out the specific points to defend, the specific places to build your cities, the points where roads begin and end - but without choosing which units do the work. The computer can allocate them. It's much better at that sort of stuff than you are.

    Some people like micromanagement. Fine. Let micromanagement be a game option. But the point of section on the Rule of 7 is that micromanagement makes you a less competent manager. You are playing a dumber game when you micromanage. I'm surprised that players don't show more interest in doing things the way the military does, and that they seem to think they know more about effective command than the military does. I'm surprised to hear people saying that letting a player focus on strategy, instead of stopping his helicopters from chasing the enemy when they run out of ammunition (C&C), is "dumbing down" the game. I take the opposite point of view - the strategy game is the thinking person's game. Setting priorities and planning tasks or large actions is strategy. Moving individual units is tactics.

    Finally, the article was about a lot of other things besides Civ. It has a bunch of concepts in there - UI profiling, work calculations, theoretical efficiency, off-line orders and opening up the AI to the player - that are a lot more important than how good Civ 3 or Civ 4's UI is. I said, without giving details, that it's possible to calculate how near a UI is to its theoretical optimum - that's a radical claim, with significant implications going far beyond computer games; you'd think someone would challenge it. Or wonder how efficient a strategy game UI could be, or how you'd go about measuring that. But nobody seems to be paying any attention to those things. Most replies are from people who are hurt because they think I insulted a game that they like. I wish I could have avoided this by writing about a game that nobody played, or that everybody hated, but I couldn't. Get over it, and see the big picture.