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AOL 9.0 Called Badware
An anonymous reader writes "The bad news at AOL keeps coming. First they get in trouble for releasing search data on more than half a million customers, then it gives away security software with a nasty EULA, now its free client software is accused of acting like badware according to Stopbadware.org, the Google-funded rating group."
Keywords: google funded
...in other news, Hotbar purchased AOL for $1000.
So, Google technically owns like 5% of AOL, and funds stopbadware.org. So this is sort of like Sony vs. Sony, isn't it? Not directly relevant, but interesting as it shows how widespread these big Internet companies are, and how many pies they have their fingers in.
That sounds like a term a 5 year old would come up with.
AOL releases free software- to compete with google.
Google funds 'badware' company saying AOL is... bad.
that is pretty funny
Does this mean people actually believed that old versions of AOL were good? From what I can recall AOL has never been good. Perhaps it didn't act with malicious purpose, but it has, in my opinion, never been good and I certainly recall several occasions in my previous support job where it ended up being the cause of problems with totally unrelated software. My apologies to any AOL supporters out there, but this is looking like the end for AOL.
To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion...
Big Internet company claims competitor's product is bad bad bad.
I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
Global warming is a cube.
I, for one, am shocked!
Join the anonymous, help develop the network: http://www.i2p2.de
When you are in a hole, stop digging.
The suite is also criticized for engaging in "deceptive installation" and faulted because some components fail to uninstall.
This is just ridiculous. Why are there so many programs that refuse to uninstall or leave pieces of themselves lying around? How hard can it be for the "uninstall" function to actually work? Worse, do I really need several dialog boxes to get rid of something? I can always install it again. It's not like I'm wiping my hard drive.
Make love, not reality television.
I can't wait for when you search "AOL" in Google and it pops up that new malware screen Google are doing to warn people before going to a dodgy site.
(And actually, while I'm on this topic, can anyone disable that new Google warning. On Safari/OSX I don't care about 'bad sites'. It's embarrassing when you're installing your clients software and need a serial heh heh)
spoonerize "magic trackpad"
...I'm the guy with the coasters.
Seriously, none of the free AOL coasters that I've ever received in the mail have ever done anything remotely 'bad'. Unless you consider sticking to the bottom of a cold glass 'bad'.
I've been waiting for one of the new versions to prevent that sort of thing, though. That is certainly a necessary upgrade - maybe version 15?
AOL 9.0 Security Edition was released 11/18/04. This is relevant for today how? Everything in retrospect is bad for you.
The main problem is that AOL simply doesn't properly inform users of what its software will do to their PCs, said John Palfrey, StopBadware.org's co-director.
Not many programs out there do tell you what it's going to do to your pc. It's more like "Click-and-Pray".
From the summary: "...its free client software is accused of acting like badware..."
This is news? Everyone I know has been saying that for *years* about AOL and their software. It tries to take over your system, has odd compatability problems, is extremely difficult to remove, and bombards you with ads. And that's when you *pay* for it!
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
I wonder what the "Google Toolbar" rates...
The AOL software is down right angelic compared to the Jessica Simpson Screensaver!
On several occasions I've removed AOL software and it broke windows installs. One time I went into local area connection properties and removed AOL's service, it broke all network connectivity instantly. Their software is designed to be impossible to remove and that has been their tactic for a very long time, this is not new!
On the same token, AOL is probably ready to go, but they will remain till a service is presented that can offer the same sort of service to the same people, but be much better too. Even more important though, is the ability to convince AOL users that is not only smart to switch, but easy and painless at the same time. AOL users are, typically, some of the newer users of the internet, so that needs to be kept in mind for anyone looking to knock the big guy off.
Lastly, I would not count AOL out just yet. While another service may come along to challenge them, it may only to serve as a catalyst for change within AOL. This would be a good thing overall, but it does suck that we have to wait or a company to be threatened in order or them to innovate.
Invexi - a Phoenix, AZ based web design and web development company.
Given StopBadware.org's criteria, why isn't at least Windows XP listed?
What the hell is "badware"? I've just about had it with all of these moronic terms that are being used in the media these days. A term like "badware" is something I'd expect to hear out of a Valley Girl: "Like, oh my god, Sally! There is like some like badware on my compy! And like **bubble gum chomping** oh my god like my AOL is like not working so I can't like chat with Jimmy!"
"Badware" is just about as stupid a term as "Islamofascism" or "freedom fries". There's no reason for a computing magazine like PC World, or a technology company like Google, to stoop to using such stupid words.
Between not letting you cancel (even post mortum) and having "bad"ware... the only thing left for them to do is start including dell batteries with their CDs
AOL has been badware since its inception. Even back in the day with version 3.0, why the hell did we need an entire goddamn program just to establish a dial up connection?
Check out the cave on the east side of lake Hylia. Strange and wonderful things live in it.
Badware, badware What'cha gonna do? What'cha gonna do when they deinstall you? Badware, badware What'cha gonna do? What'cha gonna do when they deinstall you?
Robert Oschler - RobotsRule.com
But they suck. They're the slowest creakiest pieces of shit evah.
No, no, no, dig up, supid.
Why am I not surprised at all, ive known that AOL is badware for ages...ever since I got a computer with it preloaded. Its about time this came out....
Spyware has a conotation of being, you know, about _spying_ on the user. Malware implies some malicious intent. Etc. That's stuff which not only doesn't cover all the crap out there (e.g., yes, how about stuff that keeps nagging me after I thought I uninstalled it?), but also is attackable -- and indeed attacked -- in courts on technicality grounds. You get people like Claria/Gator sending legal nastygrams around just because they're prepared to argue in court about some technicality in that classification.
"Badware", while maybe it does sound like a kindergarten word, tends to convey the broader meaning and not get bogged in such lexical arguments. It doesn't imply malicious _intent_ or have to fit any definition of spying or whatever else these fucktards argue in court. It's just "bad".
And, frankly, as an end-user I don't care why or with what intent it was written like that. E.g., if a toolbar or anti-virus is a nightmare to uninstall and leaves components running after I uninstalled it, it's "bad". I don't care if it's like that by malice or if Hanlon's Razor applies. ("Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.") It's just "bad" and they better clean up their act.
To give a personal example, I had an experience like that with one of those MacAffee all-in-one security packages. An older version, but annoying anyway. Among the many problems it had, picture this: so when installing I installed it on D:, to free space on C:. But the first update installed itself in the default directory in C: anyway. But here's the stupid part: it also let the original version from D: running at the same time, so I had two anti-viruses running at the same time, slowing my machine to a crawl. So I uninstall it. Ok, it uninstalled the newly installed one from C:, but left the old one still installed and still running. Only this time without an uninstall, so I had to manually edit the registry and remove files to get rid of it.
I'm sure that Hanlon's Razor fully applies there. It was no malice, there was no intention to spy, it's just written by the cheapest incompetent monkeys. But it's "bad" anyway. So "Badware" seems to fit that just nicely.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
So what exactly is the practical difference between malware and badware? Is it a level of instrusiveness metric? Or a measure of the alleged malevolence on the part of those responsible for the coding?
Hypothetically, what would have to happen to have an example of software classified as evilware? Brimstone?
These stories are free but worth money.
Updates software automatically (Deceptive installation)
Uh-oh.
After all, it is often computers owned by people like the average Joe Schmoe which get compromised and are used to send spam or propagate worms.
Let's talk about Joe Schmoe for a second here. Joe Schmoe is probably a decent guy, and not necessarily dumb. It's just that he has a job, bills to pay, hobbies, and with any luck, a wife/girlfriend, and maybe kids. He thinks of his computer as he thinks of his washing machine. He buys it at a big box store, spends an hour or so setting it up, and then he uses it as a tool. When it breaks, he calls Geek Squad or the smart nerdy kid down the street, just like if the washing machine breaks, he calls the repair guy from Sears.
He doesn't look at a PC as a car, he thinks of it as a washing machine. We need to educate him about how to use it safely (SP2, patches, and AV for starters), and acting all high-and-mighty about it gets you nowhere.
It's not Badware, it's just drawn that way?
Large object in the center of the Solar System called Hotthing.
up with
Oh, wait....that's what you said
nevermind
A goal is a dream with a deadline
...anything but a drinks coaster and in our house we save them for exactly that purpose. It's taken Google this long to decide that some version of AOL is badware (but not deciding what their medium is for yet)? Hmmm... could this be a sign of the beginning of the end of this first real post-dot-gone equity-market darling?
oh i have been a beggar, and will be one again...ank
Still hoping for Gentle Treatment...
Gotta stop going to that other site.
I swore your comment said "When you are an a hole, stop digging."
And I was ready to agree too
The truth about Led Zep should never be told on
...the worst tech product of all time
this is called full disclosure. deal with it. Lenovo and Sun also sponsor StopBadware.org, big deal. Whether or not google have alternate reasons for getting behind a push like this they have a history of philanthropic work, I am not surprised to find them involved.
Promote Charity on Myspace, Show Your Colours!
Most OS X application installations work like this :
Drag the program icon from the install disco to the Applications directory.
To uninstall, just drag the program icon to the trash.
The icon is actually a directory that holds resources, libs and executables.
Want to reinstall but keep the old one around just in case? Rename the icon and drag the new one over.
I love that!
-phantom of the operating system
...welcome the exit of our former overlords.
And don't let the Galactic Portal hit you in the butt.
rick
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Yes because heaven help us that someone should by a washing machine and be able to plug it into the water source and drain without flooding his house (or his apartment). Godc frobid he gets a gas-powered dryer and blows up his corner of the neighborhood
*All* appliances have safety precautions that must be taken andsafe woorking habits that must be maintained in order to protect the operator and the environment. Computers are no different. I would love to see someone operate a toaster oven with the same casual disregard for safety that people seem to want to operate computers with. That would be cool to see on YouTube
there I go, grabbing the low hanging fruit again....
A goal is a dream with a deadline
This in no way benefits Google. It is not the same way that MS funds FUD to help itself. The group's mission has no hidden agenda. It is not trying to make a profit by putting down a different group. It is simply pointing out bad software.
Though, I am trying to figure out how the H#$l you got upgraded. I would guess that at least one of the mods is from a FUDster. In addition, your mod ups point out the changing nature of slashdot. All in all, I am guessing that we have MAJOR artificial turfing going on here.
My god, you're a moron.
First of all, people *do* operate cars without a thought to safety. Have you ever driven on a major highway in a large city?
How about the number of people who destroy thousand-dollar engines for want of two bucks of motor oil?
If Joe Schmoe decides he wants to click "Yes" when AnnoyingAdBar, LLC tells him to, than doesn't he pretty much get what he deserves?
(And, more importantly, when he pays me to fix it, don't I get what *I* deserve?)
Support freelancers, encourage stupidity!
I know its very popular to bash AOL, but in their time they served a purpose.
Back in 95, I had Prodigy. It was terrible. My username and email were something like "85XZW9@prodigy.net" or some such un-memorable non-sense. I couldn't tell people my e-mail address because I couldn't even remember it myself. IIRC, there was no "screenname", just the account name. Their client software was very much a DOS type app (even when run under Win3.1) that could not be minimized and filled the whole screen with a single task. And they did not have IM or anything like it.
So one-day I tried AOL 2.something. It had a windows interface, so I could have multiple tasks open (i.e. one with the news, another with the weather, and another with a browser). I had a real username that was memorable and that approximated my own (along with a few other screennames for chat). And they had IM (no buddy list yet, that would be another year or two away), so I could send private messages in chat. And there was more content than prodigy. The web based advertising and spamming business were still immature, so they were not as sophisticated or motivated to spy on their customers as they are now.
I also tried a few more services back then, MSN, still independantly run compuServe, something called WOW, etc. None of them were as good as AOL in 1995. Remember that pure ISP-only "web" was still young, web content was sparse, and search technology was immature, so it was hard to locate. Once cable-modem came to town in 1999, I keep AOL around for a few years for the email address. But I shut that down back in 2002.
In their time AOL was the best on-line + internet service around. Basic internet was just not developed enough and the other services just didn't match up.
http://www.blackboxsearch.com/
I have to say that I have never installed the AOHELL software on any of my computers. There are 3 reasons for this. First, anything I can do with AOHELL, I can do through any other local ISP without their software. Second, There have always been less expensive options for internet access that are better than AOHELL. Third, I have seen (and had to help fix) the problems caused by AOHELL software on my friend's computers. Every time one of them fell for the AOHELL scam (XXXX free hours) there were problems right from the start. And of course when my friends wanted to discontinue using AOHELL after the free trial expired, it was always nearly impossible to do so. Also, uninstalling the AOHELL software was ALWAYS destructive...in several cases the only solution was to format the hard drive and start over. There was one good thing about this however...after the loss of all of their data( pictures, documents etc) my friends learned the importance of backing up their data on a regular basis!
No ISP should require the use of special software to dial up or connect to the internet (well, maybe a driver for USB cable and DSL modems) I use PeoplePC at this time. They have special software, but I don't install it. I merely create a dial up connection (in both Windows and Linux...though I very seldom use Windows anymore). The way to do this is to use your full email address as your username(as in xxxxx@peoplepc.com)
People need to learn not to let an AOHELL disk within 10 feet of their computers! Maybe we need the makers of antivirus and anti-apyware/adware software to recognize and remove the AOHELL virus!!!
If Con is the opposite of Pro, does that mean that Congress is the oposite of Progress?
Politics (n) Poli meaning many, tics meaning blood sucking parasites.
Seriously, that was a great Army of Darkness reference. Bravo. Laughed my ass off.
I'm really pissed they changed that line in the Director's Cut. But c'est la vie. Sam Raimi could fart on a rotten egg salad sandwich and I'd probably buy it.
so that's what that smell is...
Nah, I'm just kidding. we all know what a washing machine is for... it's something to keep your wife occupied.(again, I'm only joking, we're all nerds here, noone really believes in wives...)
Paul: If you're reading this, pick your shoes up out of the hallway. I keep tripping over them. Slob.
AOhell is the Micro$oft of the Internet Service Provider industry. Why in the world would anybody want to use AOhell? It's time for people like us to tell our friends, neighbors, and grandparents who use AOhell that it's time to dump a chunk of long term memory like Just Johnny and switch to the "real" Internet. Then, AOhell will stop sending us those darn coasters that clutter our home and increase global warming (if you throw them away, you screw up the environment by increasing the garbage crisis; if you install them, you heat up the world because your CPU runs at full speed and generates more heat to run the slow, buggy, bloated software that's on the CD)... That would be of benefit to the entire world.
I would love to see someone operate a toaster oven with the same casual disregard for safety that people seem to want to operate computers with.
I put my toaster on the counter, stick the pop tarts in, and push the button. They get done in a minute, and I eat them.
The problem with computers is that if you use the washer incorrectly (or set it up incorrectly), it floods. You notice the problem right away. Most users don't realize they're botted until 2-3 months later (when the adware or spyware gets really, really bad).
The best way to do this is to offer computer classes with incentives, and to make home installion a part of computer sales. Failing that, Dells should all come with the firewall on, and AV and anti-spyware installed and running with a 6 month subscription, as well as a note (in dead tree form) reminding the user that he needs to update and renew the stuff in 6 months.
The real one is "AOL"
Which makes me wonder... is "AOL Keyword: AOL" recursive? Having never had, used, or even breathed on an AOL browser, I wouldn't know.
One thing that annoys me as much as "badware," is sites that publish news items with misleading or incorrect headlines, especially when thay are attention-grabbing or inflammatory. I'm no friend of AOL, having dumped them ages ago and counseling friends who have it to dump it, but the article says:
"group advises users to steer clear of the software because of its "badware behavior."
"Because AOL has taken steps to address StopBadware.org's concerns, the group has held off on officially rating AOL 9.0 as badware..."
Yet your headline claims "AOL 9.0 called Badware." That is simply incorrect. They said it has "badware behavior," which you might feel is the same as calling something badware, but they specifically say in the next paragraph that the group have "held off on officially rating [AOL 9.0] as badware..." By labeling your article this way, you are misrepresenting the PC World article which you reference (AOL 9.0 Accused of Behaving Like Badware), and distorting the news. You lose credibility when you do this.
how is this news? i had always though AOL 1.0-8.x was also called Badware
/ http://suffocate.us
/ http://johngrayson.com
Or he could just get a Mac and really use it like a washing machine without having to worry about all the stuff you just listed.
You act like it's his fault for not knowing how to keep badware off of his computer rather than Microsoft's fault for making it so damn easy to get infected.
AOL is worse than malware. Malware is written with bad intent, or possibly written by Malcom Reynolds. AOL is just badware -- badly conceived, badly designed, and badly implemented.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
AOL reports that they are reviewing this report and that they are taking steps to address what's noted here. With regards to uninstallation, AOL says that a design flaw in the uninstaller mistakenly leaves executables running, even after a restart. The company says it is working on a fix, and in the meantime, that the executables do nothing even though they are running.
August 27th, 2006
Yeah thats it, Nothing at all... Wink... Just keep seeding those torrents..... Thats right, nothing more to see here, move along.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
I use a Mac. In fact, I am typing this on an iBook, waiting for my Mac Pro order to come in (31 more days...). I don't think it's Joe Schmoe's fault. I am not blaming anyone. I'm saying we need to fix it. Windows needs to be more secure. Patching needs to be easier for Joe Schmoe. But most of all, Joe Schmoe needs more education than "PCs have viruses. I'm a Mac, and I'm virus free". We need to accept that most relatively unskilled home users will continue to use Windows on their desktops. We need to educate them how to use Windows safely, or adapt the internet to the fact that there are thousands of hostile bots out there.
I'd actually ask them to require stricter standards especially at installation
1) Program has option to install in any directory you choose - surprise how many of them lack this even
2) Make start menu and desktop shortcuts wherever you choose - I hate ones that just add three icons to my desktop
3) Make no folders other than in the one they are installed in or that you specify - When Reader 7.0 came out I was constantly deleting that bloody myEbooks crap until I figured out how to stop it.
4) Do not add themselves to startup with windows automatically - I didn't say you could be resident just so that you can pop up your damn app at the slightest click of the mouse. Again bloody Adobe and iTunes do this.
5) Software that requires administrator privleges to install or run needlessly - I'm thinking CoD2
6) Any additional software installed without consent which is not required to run the application - iTunes and Quicktime
7) Any software that changes file associations by itself - give me the option and I will tell you what I'm going to let you open automatically.
7) Anything that does not give you a single entry in the Add Remove Programs List.
These are pretty basic and ought to be good manners as far as software is concerned.
Frankly badware should also include any software that is written poorly and is bloated and uses excessive memory and even things that give you a bloody skin without an option to change back to the default. I've worked hard to keep the classic windows interface with XP and I certainly don't want to see some stupid app like iTunes (or Winamp but there are windows skins) looking however they want without giving me the option to turn it off. I like my boring grey and I'm going to keep it that way.
Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
He doesn't look at a PC as a car, he thinks of it as a washing machine.
The average joe, especially in America, looks at his car like a washing machine too. That particular washing machine might be a bit more important because it can make him look cool to his friends, but it's still a washing machine.
A shocking number of people barely know what brand of automobile they drive, unless it's something like a BMW or a Mercedes and even then most probably wouldn't be able to spot it in the midst of Hondas and Toyotas. Even more people have no clue what engine they have in their car, let alone numerous other important details.
The average joe is a bit too ignorant for his own good.
AOL has ALWAYS been regarded as "badware" by anyone who can use a toothpick. AOL falls into every kind of malicious software category there is. Malware, Adware, Spyware, Spamware...AOL fits all of those pretty damn well, and the new title of "Badware" just goes to show how horrible the program and service is. I hope AOL stock tanks and the business goes belly up. It DESERVES to. AOL is a marketing ploy in the purest sense.
AOL is:
Malware: AOL has elements in it that allow it to hijack the MSN Explorer web browser (which is why I use Mozilla FireFox). AOL programs also have a habit of installing countless time-consuming updates, which are just nothing more that a few actual programming patches mixed in among more desktop internet shortcuts for marketing tie-ins. Also, as I have experienced in some of my previous systems, it can cause conflicts with Windows (yeah, I know...Linux) that are more often than not, caused by the AOL program self-installing bundled software (more marketing tie-ins).
Spyware: Well, we already have heard plenty about that one so I don't need to explain it.
Spamware: Customers are routinely sent emails for new services. Each new "service" is the same thing with a new name.
Adware: Serves up a smorgasbord of advertisements with each new window opened. Windows abound with cheap gimmicks that only lead to the user being asked to purchase something. Most "news" stories or information has some kind of marketing/sales tie-in, as do just about every service AOL offers. Customers (I once was, when 14.4 dialup was the rage) are constantly poked and prodded with sales pitches. Each new "service is actually just another sales pitch/marketing scheme with a fresh new wrapper on it.
Badware: If you read all of the above, you get the point. If you still dont't get it, you will be lucky to master a beltbuckle.
AOL just doesn't get it..... People are leaving them because they are just wayyy too obsessed with advertising. AOL has made itself the society's posterchild of advertising run amok.
-----
Sig Sauer
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
How does having a job, kids, wife, bills to pay, hobby, etc., etc., lessen the responsibility he should show as a computer owner? Frankly, if he can be responsible for all those things, it's not unreasonable to think that Joe Schmoe can also be responsible for maintaining a secure computer system.
It's incorrect to think of the situation as you are doing. A computer is not like a washing machine in any way. First of all, a problem with Joe Schmoe's washing machine won't affect my washing machine, nor your washing machine. The worst that'll likely happen is that Joe Schmoe's laundry room gets flooded. That said, I can still do my laundry without issue, as can you.
If Joe Schmoe's computer gets infected with a worm, or compromised by some spammer, we can very well be affected. Your Windows system may itself become infected with the worm, and my Solaris mailserver will need to sort out the spam coming from Joe Schmoe's compromised system. As you can see, in these days of widespread broatband usage, a problem with Joe Schmoe's computer can directly affect many, many other people. That's not at all the case with his washing machine.
Running a compromised computer is much like running a car with the tailpipe hanging off. The car may appear to run fine. But it is nevertheless broken, and a hazard not only to the driver, but to anyone else in the vicinity of the vehicle.
And of course we should educate him! The only person who has the idea of acting "high and mighty" is yourself. I think it's because you misunderstand the responsibility that it takes to use a computer. It is indeed like driving a car. In most areas, a candidate must pass some sort of a test before they are given their license. They must learn the rules of the road. They must learn the basics of vehicle maintenance. That is done for their safety, but also for the safety of others. It's no different with a PC. If PC users are going to access the Internet, then they should be able to show some minimum level of responsibility and competency. It will go a long way towards stopping worms and spam.
To some extent this is already happening. I'm an In-home technician for a major electronics retailer and I can tell you that if you buy a PC in a retail store like ours, the sales people will pound into you the idea of in-home setup, virus protection, etc. The problem is that people will find a way around it if it'll save them a few bucks. People can be told it's better for a pro to configure it but they'll take their chances for a slightly smaller bill. Even if we made it mandatory with every purchase, people would just go elsewhere for "cheaper" pc's without the service. And even with the AV/AS installed and a pro setup they're not enough to combat consumer ineffectualism. I can't count how many times customers come in with virus-ridded pc's and tell us they "just ignore the anti-virus pop-up thingy" asking to do a scan.....
<gir voice> I love this sig... </gir voice>
Lawyers and pop tarts http://www.overlawyered.com/2004/12/poptart_fire_l awsuit.html
Flaming strawberry pop tart toaster blowtorch http://www.pmichaud.com/toast/
The definitive word from Dave Berry: http://www.cfcl.com/vlb/Cuute/f/pop_tarts.txt
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
I installed AOL 9.0 on a virtual machine to see for myself, and it is a seriously annoying piece of software. It takes an extra section of the taskbar for itself (about 1/5 the width of a 1024 screen). It adds an autostart tray icon and about five desktop shortcuts. I launched the program to see if I could log in with my AIM account. I got to a screen where I could log in with an existing account or register a new account, but that screen had no back or cancel. I could only kill it with task manager.
It's obviously made for newbies who need lots of handholding, and it's good that they're bundling free antivirus with AOL 9.0 because that demographic really needs it. If you want to try out free AOL 9.0 over broadband, do yourself a favor and install it in a VM. MS Virtual PC and VMWare Player are both free (beer). QEMU is Free, but you need the KQEMU module to get decent speed, and it's free (beer).
No, they shouldn't. Most AV software is notoriously impossible to uninstall without destroying your current OS install. If they choose an AV, anti-spy, firewall package I don't like, I need to reinstall the OS before I can use the computer, and most computers don't come with an installable OS option. They come with a restore to factory default and that default includes the stupid firewall, anti-spy and AV software I don't want.
I was thinking "Buttware" myself, but I think the meaning's lost somewhere in there...
No. For the non-technical user, AOL rocked (compared to the other options) from 1991 to 1995ish. And even after the Netscape was a much better browser, AOL was still the easiest way to get online until the late 90s. I still have my aol address, but that's only because I've had it since 1991 and people can find me that way.
(trying to get out of a huge hole they've dug) Chief Wiggum: No, no dig up, stupid.
"Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs. We have a protractor."
I miss the good ol' days when AOL was on a floppy disk.
And I still don't know why AOL insists in using IE browser in all it's software. They own Netscape and they don't even use it in AOL software.
\
You get paid to fix problems - I get paid to prevent them.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
I don't know what you are talking about. I have spent time uninstalling just about every AV program out there, and I have never had a need to reinstall the OS. I think perhaps you have some other issues going on to warrent such a drastic measure.
Making giant batches of koolaid. Pour the mix in set the machine, and it automagically adds the water and stirs.
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
"Brandware" n., software that actually doesn't do anything other than attach a company's logos, slogans, and other corporate branding to protocols & functionality that are available in at least 15 other ways. I've never used AOL software, and probably never will. But as I understand it there is No Purpose to using it unless you buy actual internet access from AOL and are somehow forced to. Is AOL's "software" still just a webpage that says "News" "Sports" "Entertainment" "Politics" -- brought to you by America Online, Inc.! Where surfing the internet is fun!
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
I stopped using AOL around their 4.0 version... I think I was a freshman in High School. That's when I realize that AOL was BADWARE. AOL = Internet for Dummies.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Seriously, I'm pretty sure most men, at least, know what they're driving. Sorry, but it's only the women I know who have had trouble recollecting certain significant details about their vehicles, such as the number of doors or when they last changed the oil.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
The last time I used AOL, I was black listed and banned from thier BBS for causing it to hang all the time.
:~)
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
yah, cuz having your pc automatically download and install updates then asking you to reboot if needed is way to hard a method to update your machine.
if you think badware is childish , wait till you hear what GNU means
Sorry but I think all of AOL's software is rubbish. I downloaded an AIM beta from their website and it refused to work at all on my Win2K3 server. Revert back to their classical balderdash, lo and behold it's Win32 nostalgia! Annoying sounds, outdated GUI, crappy design.. Are these apps made by school kids?
"Fails to uninstall correctly"
I'll add: When last I uninstalled AOL, it took core windows components with it that destroyed my Satellite ISP for 6 months until I could figure out what was missing.
The Slashdot preview word for this is Knotted. This is what AOL does. Knotware.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
1) Won't run unless you uninstall the current antispyware.
2) Forces removal of a popular 3rd party firewall program.
Hint - they don't do it for compatibility reasons.
Same here, and experience is the reason I think AOL is worse than any spyware or adware that I can think of. I have been called upon to help numerous friends etc whose computers "run real slow". First step, get firefox. Install, get adaware and spybot, install and run. Get Zonealarm and AVG (cause they never have a firewall or AV). Run of the mill stuff. What always deals me fits, though, is the lame AOL software they invariably have on their PCs. I usually have to remove it manually (hunting down the files, removing services, and cleaning the registry), as the uninstall programs NEVER actually remove AOL and rarely do anything except hang the PC. You might as well try to totally remove IE.
So here's why I say it's worse than all other malware: If Lavasoft decided one day to make Adaware remove AOL, they would be slapped with a lawsuit from the well heeled lawyers owned by AOL Time Warner for merely suggesting that AOL's software is less than scrupulous. So, good malware removal tools are right out of the picture. The AOL uninstall programs are just "mysteriously" unable to remove the sotware. So, most users are left with a polluted add/remove programs list, a bunch of crap loading at startup, and totally stupid applications on their systrays, not to mention who knows-whatever-else is bundled with AOL. Just based on the fact that AOL makes it super easy to install their crapware and next to impossible to totally remove it smacks of malicious intent.
AOL sucks. AOL sucks. AOL sucks. Badware? No. There has to be a much stronger word than "badware" reserved for AOL. AOL is the intestinal parasite of the internet.
blah blah blah
Yeah, it is kinda a strange name. It was considered among other names, though, such as Thrillerware, EatItware, and JesusJuiceware.
Gravity is a contributing factor in nearly 73 percent of all accidents involving falling objects. -Dave Barry
I also think we should suggest to Joe Schmoe to got to the The Kitty. Let's not leave him completely out of the loop, hey!
Recently I had the task of troubleshooting a machine that could not send email out to personal distribution lists. After much troubleshooting, I finally tracked it down to AOL's suite of crapware. I have no idea WHY it would interfere with SMTP traffic, perhaps an attempt to keep people from becoming spam zombies, but zapping an email addressed to ~20 people without telling you is just unconscionable. Death to AOL!
Fine. How about having AV, anti-spyware, etc., as a free BTO option. If you don't want it, you get a coupon for another AV vendor.
I wish some windows geek would make a fast moving virus for Macs only. This way we can rub your MacBoi faces in your own crap. See we don't get viruses since we use Macs, so we don't have antivirus software. Then BAM, you hear the collective silence of every Mac owner as they buy an antivirus client. Please, someone make one. I hate listening to these Mac users.
"How about the number of people who destroy thousand-dollar engines for want of two bucks of motor oil?"
I LOVE them!
Some people are warning-proof. They would rather blithely sail through life and destroy stuff than take proper care. Works for me and my wallet! It's not like I don't warn them, but they just drool and drive off...
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
It appears to be. I'm just saying, there are a lot of unpatched machines out there...
Warning: frivolous linguistic nitpicking ahead. feel free to skip.
Can one really use "architect" as a verb, as in a quote from the article? i.e. "the way the software is architected..."
An architect does not "architect" for a living, but rather "designs" architecture. you can have architecturally unsound ideas, you can create a 64-bit architecture, but do you sit down at your desk and "architect" a chip or building?
sheesh. this is attributed directly to "John Palfrey, StopBadware.org's co-director".
When Windows 95 would not recognize someone's internal modem, you could count on 1 of the hundreds of AOL-defined modems to match up with their equipment.
AOL for Windows totally ignored Microsoft's hardware settings -- probably since so many of their users somehow discovered/invented new serial ports above COM4:
Once upon a time, AOL used to be a decent service, but it has become increasingly worse and worse. About 2 versions or so ago, AOL became completely intolerable. When my sister cancelled her AOL service, she was unable to get the AOL software to uninstall properly. Rather than trying to manually find all of the AOL components and clean up the registry, she just gave up and re-formatted her hard drive. I'm trying to get rid of AOL myself now. If you know of a web site or newsgroup that might have helpful hints for properly uninstalling AOL and tracking down pesky junk left in the registry, can you please post a link to it on Slashdot? I'd rather not have to format the hard drive and re-install everything, although that certainly would wipe out AOL for good.
During future discussions, you should avoid blatant ad hominem attacks. They are a very poor debating technique, and render the rest of your argument invalid.
However, since I know you're a novice to the act of civil discussion, I will gracefully ignore your transgression and consider what you wrote (eventhough it has already been invalidated by your use of an ad hominem attack).
Yes, people do drive quite poorly. And those who do often suffer severely for it. Assuming they don't end up killing themselves, each accident they get into raises their insurance premium. Not only that, if they get into a serious accident involving another vehicle, they will likely lose their license or face jail time.
I can tell you're a young teen because you'd accept payment for the simple task of running AdAware, and perhaps setting up one of the free anti-virus programs. Most professional adults would do that for a friend or relative without compensation. And you also don't understand the bigger issues at hand.
One issue you likely didn't consider (because you lack the experience) is running a mail server. It is wasteful (of bandwidth and processing time) for a mail server to have to sort out the spam sent from Joe Schmoe's compromised computer from legitimate email. When it comes to real-world corporate networks, where you may be processing upwards of 1 to 2 million emails on a slow day, a small drop in the amount of spam can significantly reduce bandwidth costs, as well as hosting costs (ie. cooling, power, etc.). In the world of business (which I doubt you have any experience with), any such cost reductions are a massive benefit.
Likewise, a worm trying to infect a network can be quite troublesome. Even with a properly secured network, the external interface of the network can become clogged with requests from the worm in question. That results in Internet access disruptions for the users of the network, as well as for those who may need to access portions of the network from the Internet. Employees are often the most significant cost of a company. So wasting employee time can become a huge cost in a matter of hours.
I hope you try harder to consider some of the real problems that are caused by your average Joe Schmoe and his infected computer. I know you don't yet have the experience to intuitively consider many such problems, but I do hope you still have the analytical abilities to at least try to understand what us real-world network administrators have to deal with.
That's what it seems like to me.
I looked at the title of this thread "Maybe Joe Schmoe Shouldn't Be Using a Computer", and tears of joy nearly welled up in my eyes. Somebody else has FINALLY said it!
The fact is, there is no common ground at all between real users and Joe Schmoe. Give Joe his web-TV device and an XBox game console (or develop more web functionality into Xboxen - they can already goto the live site, why shouldn't they be used for email and google too?)- he can still play games and surf the intarweb, he'll save $500 and what the hell did he even think he needed a computer for? Then we can quit trying to dumb our computers down for everybody until Joe can use it like a toaster. The rest of us don't *want* a toaster. There is a good reason why the computer I sit in front of was invented: it's because we need this powerful thinking and working tool!
I had to reinstall my OS when I tried to uninstall Symantec/Norton Antivirus. That AV was a piece of shit. I do like McAfee though.
Thing is, I'm fairly sure that if you CARE which AV soft you've got on, you're likely capable of reinstalling your OS.
110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
Y'know, I've met Joe, and I think that educating him may be a bit more of a job than it looks like on the surface. To be honest, Joe's got some virtues, but he's not the brightest bulb in the onion patch. Average intelligence. And, y'know what? He finds computers to be about as interesting as cross-stitch, minature poodle bloodlines, or the Nova Scotia Provincial Curling Championships.
Here's a wierd thought? How about we quit dinking around with ever more complex products that never work quite right, and try to give poor old Joe something that is simple, easy to use, secure, not very complicated, and that actually works?
OK, OK, no market for that .... Never mind.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
"Even more people have no clue what engine they have in their car, let alone numerous other important details."
Important? Why would someone who doesn't do their own car repairs ever need to know what engine is in there, or whatever other "important details" you're refering to. You push down the pedal, it goes. The driver needs to worry about driving, because cars can kill people, and he knows this. But if he pushes down the pedal and it doesn't go, he takes it to a mechanic; nobody expects him to know it was the ignition timing, or how to fix it, and why should he?
The same guy sits down to surf the web, knowing the computer isn't going to kill anyone no matter what he does, and we expect him to master some sort of arcane knowledge first? How silly.
First of all, people *do* operate cars without a thought to safety.
A better example to prove your point: I was watching an auto insurance ad that showed testimonials of people saying "I saved enough money on my insurance to buy (fishing gear / a camera / etc)"
Yeah, you'll be really fucking happy with that fishing rod when you get in a wreck and see that $20,000 doesn't cover shit.
Still, the report is not good news for AOL. Other software that has been the target of StopBadware.org reports includes Kazaa, the Jessica Simpson Screensaver, and the Starware News Toolbar.
Excellent pieces of software engineering, if I do say so myself.
That's doable for reasonably simple problem domains, like dedicated appliances (think about a broadband router, some firewalls, dedicated GPS-to-NTP boxes, and perhaps of some game consoles or maybe even the iPod).
When you get a general purpose system that is capable of running a wide range of programs and is often used without proper configuration, you get exposed to the whole range of quality levels, rather than the typically mature, well-tested [1] software that good appliances run.
[1]: In part because it's targetting a very specific deployment/hardware environment, which is easier to handle.
"The human race's favorite method for being in control of the facts is to ignore them." -Celia Green
Circumcision is child abuse.
I'm not sure who said it, but there's a sig floating around here in which someone says, "Contrary to popular opinion, ad hominem isn't Latin for 'That's mean.'"
Thank you for your brilliant insight, professor, but you're still a moron, and apparently a second-rate admin, to boot.
Since I actually know what "ad hominem" means, let's discuss that for a second. You argue that I lack experience, and am therefore unaware of the considerations of network administration. You say that I'm a young teen, and therefore intone that I am unethical with friends and relatives. You further attack my character (and not my argument) by saying you hope I have the analytical abilities to understand your message.
Allow me to retort:
If your mail server has no message throttling, you're asking for a hurt. If you have hundreds of thousands of messages coming from cable and DSL dynamic IP ranges, you've obviously not been paranoid enough in your antispam controls. Likewise, if you're trying to run a business without any protection against DDOS attacks, you've obviously not kept up with the industry. I see no point in discussing these technologies in detail, as it's already been demonstrated you are unaware of them.
Since you've obviously been accepted to some MBA program somewhere, here's a bit of advice that you should listen to, though I fear you may not: Don't be an asshole. You're not always right, you're not always the best, you're not always the smartest or the fastest. Your self righteous, sanctimonious tone will make you enemies.
Finally, by posting anonymously, you rob yourself of any credibility. I was not attempting to have a debate with you, I was not attempting to discuss anything with you. I was raising the red flag of bullshit over your ill-concieved, wrongminded, unfeasable, unrealistic assertion, in hopes of preventing your bad ideas from infecting susceptible minds. That I even typed out this response is quite literally beneath me.
and yes, while this is somewhat offtopic I figured i'd mention it; I am currently fixing my girlfriend's dad's computer and he bought the McAfee security center. After installing it proceeds to act like a more annoying version of zone alarm and now while i'm browsing slashdot waiting for the virus scan to finish it tells me that yro.slashdot.org is a phishing site.
"To face death, that's nothing much. But to feel really stupid when you die, well, that would be insufferable."
Not with today's oil prices. You'd be lucky to coat the end of the dipstick for $2...
As to the rest:
First of all, people *do* operate cars without a thought to safety.
Absolutely true. +1 insightful.
If Joe Schmoe decides he wants to click "Yes" when AnnoyingAdBar, LLC tells him to, than doesn't he pretty much get what he deserves?
No. Sure, it would be nice if the average person was smarter than simply clicking "yes" to any dialog box which appears, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for people to become smarter. In the meantime, developers can help by never using modal dialog boxes unless they absolutely need to.
Ask the user when something bad can happen and the program has good reason to believe that the user might not want this to happen. (Good usage: hitting delete in Mozilla when you've got a mailbox selected rather than a specific email message; bad usage: asking the user to confirm that you really want to save the game, or whether you want to quit, etc.)
And, more importantly, when he pays me to fix it, don't I get what *I* deserve?
Sure, if you do your job reasonably well. Being a sysadmin and cleaning up someone else's computer unfortunately resembles being a plumber fixing a broken toilet.
Damn those Internet pipes, always breaking.
"The human race's favorite method for being in control of the facts is to ignore them." -Celia Green
Why use a toaster oven when you can use a toaster - fish fingers fit well into those bread slots. Just don't let them thaw first or they flop, short the toaster out and next thing you are outside changing the fuse.
I see you still are not aware of what an ad hominem attack is. My young child, please do all of us a favour and read up on it. This basic introduction to informal logic from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy will help you understand the flaw in your argument, and how your use of an ad hominem attack proves you immediately wrong.
Your inexperience with real-world server and network administration shines through yet again! The problem is not being able to filter out spam originating from Joe Schmoe's compromised PC. That is the easy part! The costly part is that it takes significant computing resources to perform spam checks properly. Do not forget that computing resources consume power, and power costs money. It's even more costly when a genuine email gets filtered incorrectly, and a client is lost. Simple business, my child. Simple business.
When you have grown up, attended university and obtained several years experience dealing with real-world problems, I do wish to continue this dicussion with you. I think it would go quite differently. You would not resort to ad hominem attacks every other sentence, you'd have a better idea of how the business world works, your understanding of technology would be slightly improved, and you might be able to carry on a civilized conversation. Do keep me updated on your progress, my young child.
My boss' computer puked. Badly. I nuked the HD, and restored everything from a disk image I had made when I first built it for him, then did the Windows Updates. All was well. I created a NEW disk image, and returned the machine to him.
He installed AOL 9.0 and it puked. Again. I suggested he try uninstalling AOL. It said that it uninstalled, but the computer was still lethargic and crashing. So, he brought it back in.
Before nuking it & restoring the new disk image, I figured I'd take a look around. As the article said, there were numerous "pieces" of AOL's "badware" scattered everywhere! I sent him a link to the stopbadware.org site article, with a note telling him that this was exactly what I saw, and was concerned about. I plan to bring this information to the bosses above him, as well.
In summary, this article hits the nail squarely on the head. If you want to use AOL's newer features, you're MUCH better off logging into their WEBsite with Firefox, and using AdBlock and NoScript judiciously. It's amazing how many 3'rd party sites want to run scripts! More than half of them can be safely left blocked without adversely affecting the AOL site's functionality.
With their 9.0 client software, you surrender *all* control. They link you to their servers via VPN. Block the VPN, and the client balks. Leave the VPN open, and any hacker that gets into their servers (or any mischeivous/disgruntled employee)could potentially install rootkits or whatnot onto your PC.
AOL's client software also relies HEAVILY upon IE... and we all know how flawed THAT is.
Willie...
Err? After reading the parent comment, it took me a remarkably long time to figure out yours. :-)
And I was ready to agree too
Absolutely. I would be afraid of anyone who asked, "Is that an entrenching tool, or are you just happy to see me?"
"The human race's favorite method for being in control of the facts is to ignore them." -Celia Green
Your problem is motivation. Your major electronics retailer couldn't give a flying fuck about "educating your users and protecting them". Your retailer sees "in home installs" as "major cash cow with heavy opportunity for add-on sales". Why should Joe Schmoe be interested in that?
It's what? I had two versions of Norton AV installed on this computer, and replaced it with Symantec AV Corp Edition, no problems. Replaced Norton Firewall with Zone Alarm, and then subsequently Kerio, then subsequently Outpost. No problems. No magical arcane incantations. No "special uninstall apps" downloaded from hidden backwaters of vendor sites.
"bad usage: asking the user to confirm that you really want to save the game, or whether you want to quit, etc"
I am totally fucked if they do that.
ALT+F X Enter is very reflexive for me, and if they take that away I WILL lose lots and lots of data.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
I thought AOL 2 ran on DOS. They had something called PC-GEOS GUI that looked a little like Next computer windowing, but it wasn't running on MS-Windows. I probably still have the 5 1/4" install diskette somewhere. I remember AOL had no www access, it was like a lame bulletin board with Usenet access. I remember having to set up a separate SLIP account just for the web. By 1996 they had AOL 3.0 out which ran on Windows 3.1, people ate that up and the Internet was opened up to the rabble of the world.
AOL has never really been good. A few months ago PC World named AOL the "Worst Tech Product of All Time."
Failing that, Dells should all come with the firewall on, and AV and anti-spyware installed and running with a 6 month subscription, as well as a note (in dead tree form) reminding the user that he needs to update and renew the stuff in 6 months.
Or Dells should start shipping with an OS that's more resilient to viruses and spyware. I'm not MS-bashing, it can be Vista for all I care (assuming Vista fits that description). Part of the problem is that the most popular security software (McAfee and Norton) are absolutely terrible, suck up computer resources, and cost too much.
I've known a lot of users who won't buy security software because they view it as an unreasonable cost. They've just bought a new computer, and now they're supposed to spend $100 a year to make it work properly? Plus, half the time these security package break as much as they fix. Suddenly users programs stop working or they can't connect to something because the firewall is blocking it.
That's just from the Joe Schmo perspective. From a more expert perspective, it still doesn't make sense, since much of what the security software does is plug up Microsoft's poorly designed security. Maybe I'm just spoiled by open-source software, but being able to operate a computer securely doesn't seem to me to be something people should have to pay extra for. It seems like it'd be better if security were open to the public for review, analysis, and optimization anyhow.
StopBadware has standards that are tougher than the usual "it's OK if the EULA says it is". That's been the problem with TrustE's Trusted Download Program, which is a whitelist for supposedly "good" badware. Then there was the Microsoft/Claria debacle.
Unfortunately, StopBadware thus far has a very short list of "badware". They need to be listing perhaps a few hundred items. So start sending in those reports. They need technical info on "badware".
What StopBadware has is legal support. They're backed by the law schools of Harvard University and Oxford University, and by Consumer's Union. They're not likely to cave just because some company sends they a threatening letter. In fact, for a company to sue StopBadware when they have a weak case could be disasterous for the company. It would open the company to discovery to determine exactly what their "badware" did, with executives and programmers forced to testify under oath.
Macs are secure by design, not by after-market add-ons. That's the problem with Windows. (Vista's going the right way, though.)
Yes, and I'd like to see an engineer design a computer with 1/10th the thought towards safety that is put into toaster design.
From the article... "An AOL spokesman said that it is "clearly ridiculous" to categorize his company's software as badware. "No company has done more to fight malware than AOL, and millions of users are protected by our software every day,"
Isnt this like the author of "virtual bouncer" claiming that they shouldnt be classified as malware/adware, simply because they remove adware/malware themselves? Yes, they removed all BUT the adware that pays them, but they still remove MOST adware/malware, therefore they should be considered good.
This is like paying the mafia to protect you from criminals... who will protect you from your protectors?
I cant even begin to count the number of PCs I have seen with the TCP/IP stack hosed due to an AOHell software corruption... and when you call support. "can you connect to AOL? you can? but you cant get other apps to talk to the internet when you are connected to AOL(MSN messenger, outlook express, etc)? oooh... sooory.... not our problem. our browser dials and surfs OK so you are on your own... not our problem."
I hate aol software.
Sadly, my parents like it so because of that it sits on the two computers in the house.
On the computer I use 99 percent of the time, I have disabled it from autoloading. I play games quite a bit and can't afford the 50+ megs of ram it takes up.
On the other computer, if I try to close aol without rebooting it reloads itself. This along with the use of system resources while it's loaded is enough for me to categorize it as malware.
However, there's another problem as well. Randomly, it disables the internet sharing between computers. Until I figured out the "solution" I spent hours of frustrated running up and down stairs trying to find out what was going on.
When I found out aol was going free, I thought... finally, they'll dump support for their software, move to a pure web based client and I can delete the CRAPWARE off both computers. (afterall, I thought that's what I'd read in an article a while back) Sadly, no.
We need to make security software cheaper, easier to use, and less prone to breaking things. The issue with Windows is that you're sacrificing backwards compatibility every time you close a hole. A piece of "badware" is a program, after all. If Windows does too much of that too suddenly, it's a complete loss, and they lose the only thing they had in the first place (lots of programs). I'd rather they chance it, but they don't want to.
if you buy a PC in a retail store like ours, the sales people will pound into you the idea of in-home setup, virus protection, etc. The problem is that people will find a way around it if it'll save them a few bucks. People can be told it's better for a pro to configure it but they'll take their chances for a slightly smaller bill. Even if we made it mandatory with every purchase, people would just go elsewhere for "cheaper" pc's without the service.
If I buy a $450 washer at Sears, they deliver it, connect the water, power, and drain hoses, and pull the knob to make sure they did it right. For free. Yeah, it costs a bit more than the discount-appliance-warehouse joint, but somehow they stay in business.
The US free market: two halves of a government-granted duopoly are free to set the market price.
Evliware n
1. Microsoft Windows
2. Sony Rootkit
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
All I hear:
"Boohoo, I have an OS with problems and you don't. I'm jealous. Boohoo..."
The AOL client is free. It's the service you pay for.
Now, they claim to be offering the service for free also. Is there a different client for that?
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
I guess AOL proved there was a market for people like yourself that were incapable of figuring out how to do this on your own (hint: Dial-up networking is so easy to use it has a wizard), but for the vast majority of us, AOL, and the lusers that came with it were a plague on the internet. Hell, I was using the internet for years before that through an ISP without a PPP connection: I had a shell account and that was all I needed. I wouldn't expect that shell access would be useable by the average human (without an understanding of Unix), but when Windows 95 came out with DUN, that changed things for everyone. Of course, there were still people that couldn't figure it out like you and for those people AOL filled the niche. Sometimes I wonder if we would have been better off without them.... [ducks]
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
Actually, if you remember back before Win95 to Win3.1, you could replace the AOL provided winsock.dll and use Netscape Navigator 2.0 while connected via AOL , which is what I did because the AOL organic browser (before they adopted IE) sucked even more than Netscape 2.0
Somehow, I doubt you were in the "vast majority" in 1995 if you think everbody else is who used AOL back then is a "luser". But I guess that makes you 1337.
Google browserbar does send google private data, their mail keeps spying every private mail indefinately, their site uses a cookie expiring in 2038, they have some people on board which fits more to *24" TV series "CTU" thing and they have zero quality control advertising policy.
That site should start researching such stuff first rather critising AOL for couple of bookmarks added to their CUSTOMERS browser.
I have zero clue how come Google is called "nice guys".
Also this story (this slashdot page) has Google ads on top, dare to install one of the advertised "anti spyware" advertised? Think twice.
a user should at least know what type of engine is in thier car, so they put the right fuel in.
how to check the oil level, radiator coolant and screen wash levels and tyre pressures and tire condition are also pretty useful basic skills to have or at least know to ask someone to check them.
At the very least recognise when the red oil light or the charging light or the engine management light comes on that they have a problem.
recognise a change in sound, excessive play in the steering, poorly performing brakes, rumbling driveshafts especially on full lock are all signs that something is likely to be wrong.
how about just recognising that a service is due after x amount of months or miles.
some of these faults are just expensive to fix if the user doesn't take any action, some of them will leave the user stranded miles from home.
some of these faults are potentially lethal both to the user and people around him.
even the humble screen wash bottle. If you have driven down a salted road and your screen wash has run out. you try seeing where you are going with a layer of crud on your windscreen. cleaning your lights might help too.
you still think all a driver needs to know is how to drive?
In the good old days of attended service at petrol stations, The attendent didn't just fill the car with fuel, You also got a few checks on the state of your car, maybe even get some advice about some of the small problems before they became big problems. Now you are expected to deal with these problems all on your own.
Pretty good parallel with the state of things with computer users too.
Maybe computers need to be serviced too every X amount of hours of use or every 3 Months.
Now there is a potential plan for system building retailers, include a 3 month and 6 month back to base system check in the price.
Further service checks at £10, $15 whatever feels comfortable the important thing is its got to be affordable.
Just a few basic health check is all thats needed, if a system comes in thats in a really bad state then explain to the customer and quote a price to repair it.
book them in for a further check 3 months down the line (ideally get them to pay in advance so they remember)
for system checking its mostly waiting for tests to finish.
To be honest thats part of the infrastructure thats largely missing in IT run servicing like a dentist regular maintainance checks every 3 months. There's a huge number of windows users that would appreciate a service like that.
It might be that for an initial service you might charge say twice your normal service charge. This would cover the time to set up initial records. This would also give joe the incentive to book and pay for his 3 month service in advance. (if he doesn't then later he pays the same as an initial service).
a clean up is almost certain to result in a faster more responsive system so joe should always feel happy with the results of course a really hosed system will require more work but then you can bill for that appropriately.
according to how you recover the system.
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
"the right fuel" ???
I mean I guess you have to know if you've got a diesel, but other than that, most people know their car runs fine on the cheap stuff, or that it needs the high-octane stuff, and if you get theat wrong once, no biggie. Maybe you have more choices in the UK? (I've been there, but I didn't drive)
Oil level, coolant, screen wash, tire pressure and tread...
I know how to check those (though I don't have a radiator), but many people don't know how to check any of those things. The light on the dashboard comes on or they hear a funny noise, they take it in. And they get by fine.
I'd rather they chance it, too. Personally I'd like to see someone in the open source community come up with a Windows security suite (firewall, antivirus, antispyware). Security needs lots of eyes on it, and should be free. We all benefit from fewer botted Windows machines, after all. However, I guess it goes against the political agenda of furthering free software, since one of the big reasons to switch from Windows is bad security. I'd still like to see it, though.
Ad hominem attacks are valid if the point is to indeed argue "against the man". Anything else would be irrelevant.
HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.
Diesel and petrol is easy to get wrong especially when you fuel up both types, you must know someone who got it wrong once.
Not doing or knowing the checks can be expensive. A large proportion of roadside breakdowns are due to overheated engines. Holiday traffic (fully laden on a 100 mile + journey) if your on the road a lot you see it regularly, broken down and waiting for the recovery service.
Are they doing just fine?
You don't need to know anything about a car to drive it, if its an automatic gearbox you don't even need to be able to select a suitable gear. What is needed is a coping mechanism a strategy to make up for your lack of knowledge.
Joining a breakdown service, having a car serviced prior to taking a long journey. Having a knowlegable friend (especially useful in helping you not get ripped off with excessive garage bills) are all coping mechanisms.
So really what joe needs for his computer is a coping mechanism.
in both cases with his computer or his car, a little knowledge helps keep small problems small.
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
matt328, you are right, of course about the bloat.
And, you are right about us not needing that large a program just to get on-line.
But there are people who feel intimidated by all of this technology, who probably don't frequent Slashdot who really needed the bloated program to be able to figure it out. And one of them was my aunt.
With AO-Hell (3.0 and forward), she discovered the joys of e-mailing grandchildren (as well as nephews) and staying in closer touch with them. I sent her photos in my e-mails and her grandson showed her how to look at them and download them from my e-mails and look at them. This was a wonderful thing for her.
My aunt is now using a regular ISP and has a really good command of many of the same applications for access that we all have. But the handholding and extensive support available from AO-Hell and her grandson gave her the confidence necessary to function in the 21st century with modern technology.
I should mention that my aunt (and her younger brother, my father) grew up without electricity. The REA didn't get out to my grandparents' farmhouse until after my father went to college. So a lot of this modern technology is pretty advanced for someone who went from a childhood where electric lights were only available in town to instant high-speed connectivity almost anywhere all of the time. Neat thing is, one doesn't have to wait for the postal service to get the mail. One also doesn't have to find a stamp to send a note or a photo.
Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.