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Boardroom Spying Debacle at HP

theodp writes "As word spread that HP was dumping Board member George Keyworth for press leaks, Newsweek broke the bigger story: HP Chairwoman Patricia Dunn was so obsessed with finding the leaker that she authorized a team of independent electronic-security experts to spy on the phone records of calls made from HP Directors' home and private cell phones. Not only that, phone records were obtained via pretexting, the controversial practice of obtaining information under false pretenses. After Dunn laid out the surveillance scheme for the Board last May, HP Director Tom Perkins quit on the spot, characterizing Dunn's actions as illegal and unethical. HP is also coming under fire for playing dumb to the SEC about the reasons behind Perkins' resignation. Perkins, who helped launch HP's computer division in the 60's, has asked the FTC, FCC and the Justice Department to investigate."

103 of 505 comments (clear)

  1. An example by tritonman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The leader of our country sets an example for the leaders of our corporations

    1. Re:An example by ScentCone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The leader of our country sets an example for the leaders of our corporations

      I think you're confusing "leader of our country" with every P.I. and divorce lawyer that's been practicing in the US since the turn of the last century. A powerful, private person with some axe to grind or a nasty leak to stop doesn't, and hasn't, needed any inspiration from any sitting president to pay some private spook team to find out what's happening. Doesn't make it all tasty and pleasant, but it also doesn't make a it a good fit for your partisan rantette.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    2. Re:An example by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think thats a reference to the CIA leak case. It seems more a reference about spying one everyone is OK (NSA stuff).

      --
      "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
    3. Re:An example by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Why can't you guys just attack his policy


      Because doing that gets you labeled as an appeaser and a traitor, which gets old and boring pretty fucking quick. Much more fun (for everyone!) to call him a goat-licking fuckhead.


      you just turn him into a martyr


      Stop teasing me.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    4. Re:An example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's amazing to me that people seek to blame everything on George W Bush. Some loony CEO at HP spies on her employees and it's somehow Bush's fault.


      Look, as an ex-military, ex-Republican (since 2003, yes I voted for the retard in 2000) guy I'm here to tell ya: Bush is a fuckup. You can spin it anyway you want, but you do not use the NSA to spy on US citizens. You do not intercept domestic phone calls without warrants. He's set a nice example for everybody there. To hell with privacy and the law. There's your tie-in.

      And I just can't resist even though it's non-sequitur: You don't start wars on questionable intelligence.

      You Bush apologists crack me up. A damned blowjob does not equal a half trillion dollar war. Don't even get me started on "I didn't inhale" as opposed to the lack of response to the cocaine accusation.

      The man is an asshole, as are Rumsfeld and Ashcroft. And guess what? The Republican party as a whole (including the Republican "centrists" of which I once counted myself) are going to pay over the next election or two.

      Why can't you guys just attack his policy, instead of looking to blame him for everything from the weather to idiot CEO's? His foreign policy is quite debatable, as is Dubai Ports, illegal immigrants taking blue collar jobs from the lower middle class, outsourcing, our trade policy with China, etc, etc. By feeding into the stupidity of blaming Bush for everything you just turn him into a martyr.


      Martyr? Maybe in the eyes of the Pat Robertson double-digit IQ brigade, but anybody with a moderate level of critical reasoning ability is going to see him as one of the worst presidents in this country's history.
    5. Re:An example by jcrash · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude...I agree with everything you said. Only wish I had some mod points...

      Get it straight folks...you are less safe today than you were on 9/10/2001.

      --
      I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992)
    6. Re:An example by couch_potato · · Score: 4, Insightful
      (since 2003, yes I voted for the retard in 2000)

      We forgive you. Maybe if he had been elected we could blame you, but he wasn't, so we can't.

      You Bush apologists crack me up. A damned blowjob does not equal a half trillion dollar war ... Martyr? Maybe in the eyes of the Pat Robertson double-digit IQ brigade

      Those are exactly the uneducated, unable to think for themselves, repressed people who DO think that a blowjob is worse than our children dying in Iraq for a lie.

      anybody with a moderate level of critical reasoning ability is going to see him as one of the worst presidents in this country's history.

      Unfortunately, there don't seem to be enough of us left anymore. Certainly not enough to make the needed difference. Only with hindsight will history be able to judge GWB, and the verdict will not be favorable.

      Cool links.
    7. Re:An example by krotkruton · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, I didn't know that when you set an example for someone, if that person follows the example, it is immediately your fault. What an interesting way to look at things. So I guess you think that if a MLB player uses steroids and some kid who plays little league uses steroids, it must be the MLB player's fault. Personally, I think people make their own bad decisions and, in most cases, have no one else to blame but themselves. However, it would be niave to think that the actions of others do not influence our own actions. Influencing someone is different from causing them to do something.

      The initial poster only said that Bush, as a leader, was setting examples, through his actions, for other leaders. It just so happens that those examples are about breaking the law.

    8. Re:An example by eLore · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The parent post is completely relevant and non-partisan. Leaders must lead with integrity and set the bar for the behaviour of those they govern. It's time to start holding *everyone* accountable for breaking privacy laws - those that lose customer information, CEO's, and elected officials.

    9. Re:An example by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      And I just can't resist even though it's non-sequitur: You don't start wars on questionable intelligence.

      You Bush apologists crack me up. A damned blowjob does not equal a half trillion dollar war. Don't >even get me started on "I didn't inhale" as opposed to the lack of response to the cocaine accusation.

      To me it looks even worse. It seems that the Bush government knew the intelligence was spotty but massaged the data to justify the war anyway. Maybe not Bush himself, he may be clueless enough that it was done behind his back.
      But I think there are some people in the current administration who deserve to be hanged.
      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    10. Re:An example by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 2

      Some loony CEO at HP spies on her employees...

      Doesn't the board pick the CEO? If they're not happy, just kick'em out!

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    11. Re:An example by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The parent post is completely relevant and non-partisan. Leaders must lead with integrity and set the bar for the behaviour of those they govern. It's time to start holding *everyone* accountable for breaking privacy laws - those that lose customer information, CEO's, and elected officials.

      OK, then perhaps the tone of the comment should have been aimed at more than one person? HP's BoD may be dealing with marketing and corporate espionage type issues, but they're not so much directly having to contend with people that seek to kill their customers. To suggest that this is all the same conversation is a little disengenuous, and to suggest that the GP was speaking in broad terms (and not looking for the first and most obvious way to take a wack at the administration) is likewise.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    12. Re:An example by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 5, Funny

      You will probably hear a knock at your door any minute now...

      You sent him a pizza? I want one!

    13. Re:An example by thesandtiger · · Score: 2

      He doesn't want to be responsible for everyone under him? Then he shouldn't have run for office. The buck stops here. Period. End of story.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    14. Re:An example by aplusjimages · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's amazing to me that people seek to blame everything on George W Bush.

      It's only fair because Clinton gets blamed for all of Bush's mistakes and he's not even in office anymore.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    15. Re:An example by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Those are exactly the uneducated, unable to think for themselves, repressed people who DO think that a blowjob is worse than our children dying in Iraq for a lie.


      I think a reasonable corrolary to this is that, if everyone could simply get a nice massage and some good oral sex once in a while, there would be no more war.

    16. Re:An example by jackbird · · Score: 5, Insightful
      unbridled attempts to blame Bush for everything that goes wrong - rather than just the things that he's responsible for - only serve to marginalize valid opposition opinions on things like illegal surveillance, deficit spending, the Iraq war, etc.

      OK, then, how do you think the:

      • Abandonment of the MS antitrust verdict
      • Shortlisting of Ken Lay for Treasury
      • Double secret energy task force
      • Abramoff scandal
      • no-bid contracts to Halliburton
      • Gutting of the EPA, FDA, FTC, etc.
      • appointments of well-connected, unqualified cronies to key positions
      • Profligate giveaways of public property to logging, mining, and petroleum concerns
      • Unabashed disregard for the rule of law when it counters the administration's interests

      has affected impressions of what is and is not acceptable behavior in the boardrooms of America? Who outside the administration is responsible for those things happening?

      The real problem is that so many deeply disturbing things are happening at once that it's becoming impossible to keep track.

    17. Re:An example by OakDragon · · Score: 4, Funny

      Wow. I know that eventally, all Slashdot threads wind up in a Bush-bash. But this is the first case I've seen that goes straight there! (That is, without Bush or the government being the subject of the story.)

    18. Re:An example by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OK, then, how do you think the {long list of things} has affected impressions of what is and is not acceptable behavior in the boardrooms of America?

      If anything, the laws regarding corporate governance have gotten more strict during the current administration. I wouldn't blame/credit Bush for that, either - this was a long time in the making.

      Who outside the administration is responsible for those things happening?

      Could it possibly be the people who are actually in those boardrooms? Contrary to popular belief among the far left, free will wasn't completely abolished when Bush took over.

      The real problem is that so many deeply disturbing things are happening at once that it's becoming impossible to keep track.

      So rather than bothering to keep track, just blame Bush for everything. After all, it's also the most politically expedient move when it comes to bringing mindless sheep over to your side - and if you say something often enough, it also makes it true.

    19. Re:An example by jafac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All he said was you can't blame this stupid corporate scandal on Bush.

      While that's true - you can't blame it directly on Bush, there is a huge network of rightwing thinktanks and pundits; Club for Growth, Focus on the Family, Heritage Foundation, Aspen Group, CATO, etc. etc. ad nauseum, who dominate the newsmedia op ed and commentary pages and shows, and to them, Bush is their hero, their figurehead, their demigod. They mindlessly push their ideology using trumped up "facts" and faked "studies", vitriol and personal attacks on various figures on the "left", they re-define terms, present false dillemas, strawmen, and every logical fallacy known to man (and I think they've even invented a few the Greeks didn't know about).

      Bush is currently the de facto figurehead of this movement.
      This movement's ideology fits perfectly with the actions of HP's board in this "stupid corporate scandal": The ideology that people should only have privacy if they aren't using it. The idea that corporate profits are more important than the rights of individuals. The ideology that the wealthy and powerful are above the law, and are the only people that matter.

      No - Bush didn't make these people act this way. This ideology has been around for a very long time, and its recent resurgence in America does pre-date Bush's rise to prominence (whether you call it from Nixon, or Reagan's election, or the congressional takeover in 1994), I think it's entirely appropriate and accurate to "blame this on Bush". If not Bush - then at least the blame lies in "the horse he rode in on."

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    20. Re:An example by doomicon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, I don't see a connection. Just like I don't see a connection between Clinton getting BJ and Teens saying oralsex is not sex. Instead on focusing on people, we should focus on issues and policies. People regardless of party will fail, as they are typically selfcentered, selfinterested, self*.

      If you tell someone, "I think this policy is bad because ...". They will listen.
      Tell someone, "I think this policy is bad bacause is an idiot".. and they will shut you out.

      Regardless of party discuss issues, discuss problems, do something... Standing from the rooftops screaming that such n' such is an "asshole" may get you short term attention, or even elected. But it's not solving the issues.

      --

      Awesome!
    21. Re:An example by danielk1982 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think it's entirely appropriate and accurate to "blame this on Bush"

      This is a stupid statement. The NSA wiretapping was wrong and Bush should probably be impeached for breaking the law, but this has NOTHING to do with the scandal at HP, no matter how many paragraphs you write to try to justify it.

    22. Re:An example by JaxGator75 · · Score: 2, Funny
      So you're saying that by striking him down, we're actually making him more powerful than we could possibly imagine???

      --
      Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
    23. Re:An example by Alien+Being · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're out of your mind. Bush keeps signing laws that take money from the poor and give it to the rich. He uses the Constitution to wipe his ass and sacrifices thousands of lives to advance his geopolitical agenda. His administration is a monster, the likes of which the world has not seen since Hitler tried to dominate Europe.

      The SOB should be locked up in one of those non-existent foreign prisons and subjected to legal torture until he admits to his crimes.

    24. Re:An example by iocat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok though, just for the record, no one doubted the intelligence at the time. I'm sure some republibot can provide links, but even Bill Clinton said there were WMDs in Iraq. Clinton even established the "regime change" policy. This is in no way a defense of the prosecution of the war, or me saying it was necessarily a good idea, but people on BOTH SIDES of the aisle said there were WMDs in Iraq (and there were -- more than 700 WMD bearing shells have been discovered), so it's hard for me to buy the notion that Bush influenced the intelligence (in a 'bush lied, people died' sense), since it was apparently saying the same thing to Bill Clinton, before GWB was in office.

      --

      Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

    25. Re:An example by JavaLord · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Look, as an ex-military, ex-Republican (since 2003, yes I voted for the retard in 2000) guy I'm here to tell ya: Bush is a fuckup. You can spin it anyway you want

      It's unfortunate that you see anyone who expresses an idea you don't like as 'spinning'.

      , but you do not use the NSA to spy on US citizens. You do not intercept domestic phone calls without warrants. He's set a nice example for everybody there. To hell with privacy and the law. There's your tie-in.

      So, that leads to the CEO of HP spying on her employees? Using this same logic, Clinton is responsible for every guy who cheated on his wife or perjured himself. Since I related it to a political figure you like, do you see the narrow mindness of this thinking? People were cheating on their wives, getting blowjobs, smoking weed, etc long before Clinton was around. George W Bush did not invent the wiretap.

      Blaming presidents for things unrelated to them because you dislike their politics ruins rational political debate. This activity is usually out of pure tribalism, where people will not even consider the view of the other side.

      And I just can't resist even though it's non-sequitur: You don't start wars on questionable intelligence.

      Thanks General. While we are at it, I'll throw one at you. Interventionism leads to terrorism. Neither party will come out and say it, but the truth is the foreign policy of Bush 1, Clinton, and Bush 2 (briefly) is what led to 9/11. The terrorists would not be over here, if we were not over there. The Bush's weren't the only ones looking for dragons to slay overseas. Clinton took us into Kosovo when our national interests were not at stake, and the US citizens were not at risk. He also continued the sanctions against Iraq which Bin Laden mentioned in his Fatwah. Look, you can blame one party if you want but the truth is there isn't much difference anymore.

      You Bush apologists crack me up. A damned blowjob does not equal a half trillion dollar war. Don't even get me started on "I didn't inhale" as opposed to the lack of response to the cocaine accusation.

      I'm still wondering how you inferred I support the president from my first post. I was simply pointing out that the tone of politics today does not lead to meaningful debate.

      The man is an asshole, as are Rumsfeld and Ashcroft.

      Thanks for the brillant assessment.

      And guess what? The Republican party as a whole (including the Republican "centrists" of which I once counted myself) are going to pay over the next election or two.

      Historically speaking, they should lose this fall, and the polls indicate that will happen. I don't like the foreign policy of the neocons, nor do I think they have the best interests of America in mind.

      Martyr? Maybe in the eyes of the Pat Robertson double-digit IQ brigade, but anybody with a moderate level of critical reasoning ability is going to see him as one of the worst presidents in this country's history.

      You don't get it. He can be the worst president in the countries history, but if people think he's being unjustly attacked they WILL sympathize with him. Not just republicans either. Simply attack him on the issues, when you break down his actual public policy there are few things that conservatives or liberals would support. So much of the debate gets caught up with silly accusations and tribalism that most people don't see the factual reasons for what is wrong.

      Also, your insinuation that christians have a double digit IQ is ignorant, would you say the same thing about Jews or Muslims? I'm not religious, but I don't like double standards.

    26. Re:An example by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It's amazing to me that people seek to blame everything on George W Bush. Some loony CEO at HP spies on her employees and it's somehow Bush's fault.

      No one said it was Bush's fault and it is a sign either of your immaturity or your overdefensiveness (or both) that you would suggest that they did. Immaturity for putting words in people's mouths that they never intended; overdefensiveness because you feel compelled to defend him against an accusation that was never made.

      Judging by the media coverage you would think George W Bush made Katrina himself last year, and aimed it at New Orleans.

      Judging by a straight, literal read of the news coverage, I could see that Bush was being blamed for not doing enough to help, especially minorities, which provably, statistically, received less help.

      One of Powell's men accidently leaks the name of a spy, and everyone blames Bush and Rove, yet there is little chance Powell or any of his 'boys' would take a dive for the neocons.

      Uh, how do you know? Are you privileged to know what goes on inside the white house? What's going on inside the councils of people who are in a much greater position of power than yuo are? Somehow, I doubt it.

      Powell is highly connected with big oil and in my book he's precisely the same as any of the other assholes who've worked in that building under shrub.

      Why can't you guys just attack his policy, instead of looking to blame him for everything from the weather to idiot CEO's?

      This is an attack on his policy, but your apparent unfamiliarity with the English language must be inhibiting your interpretation. See, the President's job is ultimately pretty meaningless, he could be replaced with a very small shell script. Especially this one; all he'd have to do is make a bunch of unauthorized accesses. All kidding aside, however, I thought it was a pretty clear indictment against Bush's tendency to ignore privacy rights. It might have been kind of a cheap shot... but I don't feel too charitable to someone who seems to be intent on dismantling all of our freedoms as he comes across them.

      His foreign policy is quite debatable, as is Dubai Ports, illegal immigrants taking blue collar jobs from the lower middle class, outsourcing, our trade policy with China, etc, etc.

      ...illegal wiretaps, illegally keeping people in the armed forces past their retirement date because no one seems to want to sign up for his bullshit war, stepping up attempts to recruit minorities only because they've run out of white people dumb enough to sign up, threats against journalists, "etc etc"

      Name one good thing that this administration is doing for any reason other than supporting something bad they're doing, please.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    27. Re:An example by zstlaw · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well my mother had a long talk with a member of the whitehouse transition team back in 2000. And I remember the guy she spoke too complained about how they were obsessed with Iraq even back then. If you look at how they are a bunch of energy company old hands, and you look at how when Saddam rose to power he nationalized a bunch of oil holding you can start to see the big picture.

      The transition team fellow also complained that the admisistration was the most paranoid group of people that he had ever had to work with. Everyone was in CYA (cover your ass) mode constantly.

      Also on the backstabbing nature of the insiders I can attest that my mother and her boss were repeatedly called before congressional inquires on spurious matters mainly focused around the fact that the government agency they worked for advocated condom use. (She worked at the center for disease control) Her boss was a nobel prize winner for medacine who eventually stepped down due to the constant interuptions of his work and the hassling of his family and friends. (They were also called to these spurrious inquiry session)

      It is not that Bush is corrupt, but that a single group has siezed power and allow no dissent nor debate. There is only an emperor and his minions all follow in lockstep.

    28. Re:An example by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Informative
      I read the WSJ paper in the work lobby today on the way out and this is much different than the way this slashdot posting makes it. The "spying" was barely mentioned.

      This was a long running follow up to HP executive director's board members leaking information to the press in direct violation of BOARD policy to discuss meetings outside offical channels. The short story is that when Carly was still in charge information about her "chewing out" sessions with the board was leaked by a board member to "get back" at her with the press. Needless to say, it made Carly's job even harder and caused her to be let go sooner... again there was leaking involved in that decision also. When Carly left they split her 1 position of CEO/Pres 3 ways. Dunn and another guy pick up the CEO position and started invesigating who was leaking (late 2004). Over the next year they went to HP's internal affairs department and began investigaing what was going on... they had suspects, but no "smoking gun". Over the next year, they investigated several more big leaks..from meetings of only board members and upper management...i.e. people that should know better. By this point the board knew they were being investigated. The only mention of the "spying" in the WSJ article was that HP eventually hired outside investigators.. read that as slimy PIs just like workmans comp, and other private agencies use. It was the outside guys that scammed for the court records.. just like PIs do to catch you cheating on your wife! It's not new, it's done every day.

      The reason it was known is that Both CEOs (Dunn and the other guy) and HPs council took the evidence to the ethics board.. over the head of the board of directors to recommend action. They discussed the entire evidence with the guy they fired and the guy who quit before taking it to the full board. They basicly went to the board and demanded they fire the guy..Who's still there! The guy who quit is full of crap, just like the leaker. There is no statement to be made... somebody was violating confidentiality of their board discussion to further their "agenda" and should be punished. In the WSJ article both the other CEO and the General Consul agreed if it was any normal "employee" of HP they would be terminated immediately under the companies rules.. This is about the "Board" thinking their above the rules and the CEO of a company doing their job.. nothing less.

    29. Re:An example by tylernt · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It's amazing to me that people seek to blame everything on George W Bush.
      It's amazing to me that an otherwise interesting /. discussion has, yet again, dissolved into a political flamefest.

      Sigh.
      --
      DRM 'manages access' in the same way that a prison 'manages freedom'
  2. And this is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    having women in power won't necessarily make for a kinder, gentler world.

    1. Re:And this is why by R2.0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For many years we have been told that, if women were in positions of power, they would behave differently than men. This assertion was based solely on the premise that women are somehow fundamentally different than men, and that this difference would ensure that female executives and politicians would be somehow "better" then males.

      This has proven not to be the case, as evidenced by the behavior of various corporate and political women in power. While true that the Cynthia McKinney's and Carly Fiorina's of the world are not the rule, they do lead to questions of whether women are so fundamentally different after all.

      Is Hillary Clinton somehow better than the other senators simply because she is a woman? Is she exempt from being accused of being an opportunistic carpetbagger, merely because she has a set of tits? That is what some would have us believe.

      If I can call Sen. Stevens a bastard, I can call Sen. Clinton a bitch.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    2. Re:And this is why by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 5, Funny

      having women in power won't necessarily make for a kinder, gentler world.

      That's because it's a certain personality type that goes after power, and that type is gender neutral.

      Also, if women ran the world, the Earth would be a bombed out nuclear ruin after the first full moon.

      Oh, I'm gonna get modded down...

    3. Re:And this is why by tutori · · Score: 5, Funny
      Oh, I'm gonna get modded down...
      Well, maybe if there were women on /.
  3. Pre-Texting at a Bank by neonprimetime · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Legal experts vary in their views on the extent to which pretexting is a violation of criminal law.

    I work at a bank, and we have to take yearly courses on Pre-Text calling, because it's such as issue here.

    also here is printer unfriendly with the annoying javascript popup

    1. Re:Pre-Texting at a Bank by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Pretexting" is a new term to me... it seems to be synonymous with what's called "social engineering" in computer security circles. (The colloquial term is "lying".) Is that the case?

  4. How did she do that? by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Can someone please explain to me what authority she had to authorize phone taps on private cell phones? She is not law enforcement. WTF?

    -d

    --
    "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    1. Re:How did she do that? by LnxAddct · · Score: 2, Informative

      If they are company phones, they can do what they want.
      Regards,
      Steve

    2. Re:How did she do that? by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 2, Informative

      yes, but if you read TFA, you see that they were both company phones AND "private cell phones"

      -d

      --
      "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    3. Re:How did she do that? by Skye16 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, as long as you're in a company bathroom, we can video tape everything you do? After all, it's company property.

      I'm no lawyer, but I'm relatively sure the law requires notification whenever a person's reasonable expectation of privacy is to be infringed upon. A telephone call is one of those reasonable expectations. As is sitting on the toilet. I don't know if there's a legal precedent for email, but I do know that you usually sign an agreement stating that the corporation can watch anything/everything you do using their workstations, telephones, email servers, etc, etc. Without it, I would imagine the person being watched would have a fairly good case in court. They may not win, but then again, they may very well win, and pocket a lot of the company's cash in the process.

    4. Re:How did she do that? by eclipz · · Score: 5, Informative
      They did not actually tap the phones. According to TFA:
      It was classic data-mining: Dunn's consultants weren't actually listening in on the calls--all they had to do was look for a pattern of contacts.
      They did obtain the records under false pretenses though, which is illegal.
    5. Re:How did she do that? by Anthony+Boyd · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hi deacon. According to the article, there was no wiretapping. So no, they didn't break the law you cite, and did no illegal phone tapping.

      What they did do was "pretexting," which apparently is also illegal. Basically, they impersonated the directors. They called their phone companies, and -- pretending to be the director in question -- they lied to the customer service person until he/she believed the real customer was on the line. Then, they instructed the customer service person to give them the contents of the director's personal phone records via email.

      That's pretty shocking. It's corporate-sponsored law-breaking. Of course, as I mentioned in another post, the other members of board found out they were being illegally spied upon back in May, and did nothing. They've had months. What the hell were they thinking?

    6. Re:How did she do that? by alain94040 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Amazingly, the article doesn't seem to take offense with the practice. And no one seems really shocked, except Tom Perkins looks like.

      In any other developed country, this practice would be guaranteed to be illegal and the chairwoman of the board would be made to resign in a hurry. What a shame that it's not happening here.

      Alain.

    7. Re:How did she do that? by Dhalka226 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      (Standard IANAL disclaimer here.)

      So, as long as you're in a company bathroom, we can video tape everything you do? After all, it's company property.

      Well, bad example (I'll mention why in a minute), but the answer to the spirit of the question is: Yeah, probably.

      You may or may not have any right to privacy at work. Most Americans see a definite right to privacy in the Constitution, but they fail to understand that the Constitution is meant as a limit on the power of the government. Specifically, it was meant as a limit on the power of the federal government; not until the Fourteenth Amendment did the US Constitution come to apply to the states as well. If it was a police officer who set up the cameras in the bathroom with no cause, it would almost certainly be illegal.

      That said, I believe most case law thus far has come down on the side of "while you're on company property, they can do whatever they want to you." Including, in some cases, opening up your drawers and rifling through your papers; reading your emails; etc. No, they can't watch you in the bathroom--but not as a privacy issue; they couldn't do that because it may very well violate other laws, such as voyeurism. Telephone calls may also be safe, but again, not because of your right to privacy: Depending on the state, it may simply violate wiretap laws.

      Some decisions have begun to come down saying that employees do have some expectation of privacy at their places of employment, and I expect that to be the general trend. That said, I believe it's still in the minority. Your employer still has a tremendous latitude in determine how much privacy to give their employees and when it might be time to violate that.

      More to the point of the case, however, it appears that they did not actually tap anybody's phone. Rather, they looked at phone records. You can bet that it is perfectly within a company's rights, at least at present, to pull the phone records of any employee for any service the company pays for. If they truly did trick the employees' phone companies into releasing their own personal phone records, then that sounds to be entirely illegal.

      So, like I said, the spirit of your initial question seems to be yes: Employers can watch an awful lot of what you do so long as they are not violating any specific laws while they do it. It's the difference between violating a law and violating a right: It does not seem to be the rule (yet) that companies have any obligations to extend you any rights not backed up by law.

    8. Re:How did she do that? by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What they did do was "pretexting," which apparently is also illegal.
      "Pretexting" is noun-verbing corpspeak. What they did is what has long been known as false (im)personation, or, more recently "identity theft".
  5. just to put things in perspective... by eshefer · · Score: 4, Informative

    Tom Perkins, as in Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers.

    This is pretty dramatic.

  6. First stock advice post! by Travoltus · · Score: 2, Funny

    Short sell! Short sell!!!

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    1. Re:First stock advice post! by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 3, Funny

      Short sell! Short sell!!! ...if only you packaged it up in an animated gif, and flashed it every 17 seconds...

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

  7. Smoking Gun by treeves · · Score: 5, Informative
    --
    ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  8. Whatever happened to the old HP? by TheWoozle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    HP used to make decent products. Now they make craptacular products and have management that read from Stalin's playbook.

    It's a shame, really.

    --
    Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
  9. Dunn should be Done by TopShelf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dunn sounds like a melodramatic sociopath bent on her own power trip. It's bad enough to hire outside inspectors to track down a leaker, and to resort to snooping on personal call records, which is truly dirty pool. But once she had her proof, why not confront that director personally, rather than pull a stunt like this in front of the full board? Had she confronted this guy directly, he may have resigned quietly. Instead, she's now thrown the spotlight on her disregard for personal ethics or the respect of her colleagues.

    That said, it's pathetic how easy it was for these investigators to get personal phone records on these accounts. You'd think there would be some standards in place, such as only sending the information to addresses already tied to the account, or something. I'm no security expert, but this looks pretty shoddy.

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    1. Re:Dunn should be Done by Alchemar · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you read the letter from AT&T they said that the person provided the last 4 digits of the social security number. This is why social security cards use to have "not for identification" printed on them. When people finally realized that we needed a national id number for some things, they also realized that it would turn bad if abused. Now that everyone ignores this fact, we have a large problem with identity theft. SSN were to be used by employers and the IRS. At different times I have had it as my employee ID posted on a call out list, my student ID posted with my grades, my insurance member number. You are not allowed to keep it secret, but they want to pretend that only you would know it.

    2. Re:Dunn should be Done by OldManAndTheC++ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But once she had her proof, why not confront that director personally, rather than pull a stunt like this in front of the full board?

      Probably because she wanted the full board to witness the ease and efficiency with which her henchmen had tracked down the wrongdoer, to point out to them the futility of opposing her rule. In her mind, after such a brazen display of power, no one would ever dare to leak again! Unless maybe they had a prostate problem.

      --
      Soylent Green is peoplicious!
  10. Doubleplusgood! by derPlau · · Score: 5, Insightful
    pretexting, the controversial practice of obtaining information under false pretenses
    That's an awful lot of words to replace a single, more useful one: "lying".
    1. Re:Doubleplusgood! by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Insightful
      That's an awful lot of words to replace a single, more useful one: "lying".
      I thought we called that "Social Engineering" here on /.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Doubleplusgood! by KenSeymour · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If this were some young geek, we would say "social engineering" and say that the
      folks that gave up the information were idiots. We might even say what a great
      guy the young geek was for pointing out the flaws in a company's security system.

      Both are lying.

      --
      "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
  11. I don't care... much. by Anthony+Boyd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Believe it or not, it's hard to get worked up about this. Sure, reading the Slashdot text got me mad. It sounds shocking -- what a huge violation of privacy! But then, reading the article, you see that aside from 1 director who resigned, all the other directors, including the leaker, have stayed on board! In other words, the guys whose privacy was invaded didn't care. It was done to them, and their response was to keep serving.

    So why care on their behalf? These walking lobotomies need to stand up for themselves.

    1. Re:I don't care... much. by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why should have to leave? Let her resign. And their privacy may have been violated (and probably was), they just haven't found out yet or don't have physical proof so they are keeping mum.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    2. Re:I don't care... much. by yndrd1984 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      So why care on their behalf?
      Because you could be next?
    3. Re:I don't care... much. by Anthony+Boyd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hi Hoi Polloi. You're totally right. I should have been more clear. The board has known what Dunn did since May. So my real thought is not that they all should have resigned, but that they all should have done something. Yes, make her resign. If not that, then public disclosure and shareholder review. Something. But they sat on this for May, June, July, August, and now we're into September, and they've still done nothing. Well, they've finally been caught off guard by being exposed. Maybe that will stir them into action.

      I just think these dumb idiots bent over and let her screw them. And when they found out how much they had been violated, they apparently just stayed hunched over, waiting for more. It's pathetic.

    4. Re:I don't care... much. by L7_ · · Score: 2, Informative
      From the Wikipedia article on Perkins, it seems that he is currently worth 1 billion. Although there is no citation.

      As of 2006, Perkins' net worth is about $1 billion.[citations needed]


      So yeah, I would say that he is wealthy. :P
  12. Trust in the boardroom by OglinTatas · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Funny, but quoting from The Register article

    "The situation is regrettable," Ms. Dunn said in a statement provided to the Wall Street Journal. "But the bottom line is that the board has asserted its commitment to upholding the standards of confidentiality that are critical to its functioning. A board can't serve effectively if there isn't complete trust that what gets discussed stays in the room."

    Can the board serve effectively if there isn't complete trust or confidentiality anyway? If the CEO is spying on you at any or at all times?

    1. Re:Trust in the boardroom by wiml · · Score: 4, Funny

      I like how the board "[upheld] the standards of confidentiality" by ... violating the confidentiality of the board members' personal lives. Yay for double standards!

    2. Re:Trust in the boardroom by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not really. How many people knew that Bill Ford would be replaced by the former Boeing CEO until yesterday? Pretty much just the Ford Board of Directors and some attorneys.

      There is a certain amount of information about the company that has to be disclosed, and most of that appears in annual reports, quarterly reports and certain, required press releases. Shareholders have a right to attend shareholders' meetings, which could include employees if they happen to be shareholders.

  13. When Common Sense is Ignored by LifesABeach · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't help but think of the Admiral's statement in the movie, "Enemy of the State". Loosely, it was, "...if this was someone's unilateral wet dream, then that someone is going to prison..." Now I'm all for making money at someone else's expense; But not at the risk of getting caught breaking the law. I think we'll be seeing HP public relations types clawing their brains trying to put a positive spin on this. Maybe I can help, "George Bush does it; Why can't I?"

    "slowly, one by one, the penguins steal my sanity" - Unknown

  14. BBC Says CA AG will investigate by igb · · Score: 3, Informative
  15. 'Pretext'? by displaced80 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Funny. I'd call it 'lying'.

    If you have to think up a euphemism for what you're doing, it's probably wrong.

    Unless it's funny, like 'bumping uglies' or 'dropping the kids off at the pool'

    --
    What's the frequency, Kenneth?
  16. Re:I don't see why anyone would mind by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's right. In fact, no one should ever mind anyone reading their (e)mail or listening to their phone calls, unless they have something to hide. It should be legal for cops to just come in your house any time they feel like it, just to make sure you're not doing anything you shouldn't be. Random house checks by the cops would help put an end to the evil crimes of pot smoking and non-missionary sex. After all, if you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to hide.

    OK, who's the first to volunteer for random house checks?

  17. Re:Sad... by MECC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    taken over by MBA type idiots

    More
    Bullsh*t comes from your
    Ass


    In a way, this kind of thing is an outgrowth of the nature of a corporation. Corporations are created to insulate individuals from the consequences of their actions. Not that any reasonable person doing this kind of thing should expect a corporate umbrella to save them, but it seems to be a prevalent mindset in corporation culture. After all, that's the name of the game - hide behind something.

    --
    "We are all geniuses when we dream"
    - E.M. Cioran
  18. They are hardly "women". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Have you ever had to deal with the types of women who become CEOs? It's quite difficult to consider them "women", in the sense of the attitudes and composure of most females in our society. When it comes to their personality, they're often far more like men than they are like women. They often have little of what me might consider "motherly instinct", let alone kindness or gentleness.

    Much like most male CEOs, they often got to that position be being real bastards, and squishing a lot of people on their way up. There's really little difference between the two, when you get up to those levels of power. Both the males and females of the calibre care little for anything besides money, their egos, and their careers.

  19. Let me clue you in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Corporate malfeasance was unheard of prior to January 20, 1969. It went away on August, 1974, only to return January 20, 2001.

  20. Who wants to be a HP customer now? by MooseTick · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If Patricia Dunn spies on her employees like this, how can I trust her enough to be a customer of HP?

    If they were looking at company issued phones, computers, or other equiptment I would say that is fair game. When they pretend they are you and get information from services providers where you pay the bill they have crossed the line. I was shopping for a new laptop and HP is now out of contention.

    The only way this can be corrected is if HP cans Patricia Dunn ASAP. Tom Perkins should be running HP. He actually has a moral compass and stands by what he thinks is right.

    1. Re:Who wants to be a HP customer now? by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 2, Funny

      If Patricia Dunn spies on her employees like this, how can I trust her enough to be a customer of HP?

      To be honest if HP produced equipment that was halfway decent and sold at a reasonable price, it wouldn't bother me one way or the other. They don't, on both counts, so the point is moot. Regardless, I'd tap that sociopathic ass.

      Naughty Patricia.

      Naughty.

  21. Employer agreements by JimBobJoe · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't know if there's a legal precedent for email, but I do know that you usually sign an agreement stating that the corporation can watch anything/everything you do using their workstations, telephones, email servers, etc, etc.

    Keep in mind though, that response is more relevant in the context of an employer-employee relationship. Board of Directors are not "necessarily" employees of the company. Their election by the shareholders binds them to the company, what the company can do with them is limited, and I certainly would think the company could not dictate an agreement to them to do X or Y. The Directors have an obligation to the shareholders, not to the "company."

  22. She announced it? by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The real boneheaded move here is that she disclosed to everyone what she was up to, presumably because she thought it would be OK with them or something. That was totally stupid! Anyone knows that if you want to break the law like that, you have to keep it under the table and OUT of the boardroom discussions... DUH!

    --
    stuff |
  23. Re:Not really by joekampf · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, it was a guy by the name of Richard Armitage who leaked the information. Who BTW was agains the Iraq invasion as well. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,212317,00.html

    --
    When a man lies he murders a part of the world.
  24. The only bright spot of this situation... by spamchang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...is Tom Perkins's ethical behavior. I only hope that when I get to be a director, I would have the cajones to resign rather than to serve under or carry out orders from a boss with a history of such behavior. Well, that and the handwriting on the wall (SEC investigation) might have helped influence his decision. But what a way to go!

    1. Re:The only bright spot of this situation... by Matt+Perry · · Score: 2, Funny
      I only hope that when I get to be a director, I would have the cajones to resign rather than to serve under or carry out orders from a boss with a history of such behavior.

      When I get to be a director I'm going to learn to use the street-corner payphones!
      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
  25. Re:I don't see why anyone would mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    OK, who's the first to volunteer for random house checks?


    Nah, we'll hit "Random Cavity Searches" at the airport first.

    (YOU might not be allowed the use of Gels once you go through the first screening point ... but you better hope THEY are)
  26. Re:I don't see why anyone would mind by KlomDark · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If someone has broken no laws, and has nothing to hide, then they should be doubly pissed that someone invades their privacy.

  27. It probably won't make any difference. Here's why by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    More like it won't make any difference, though not for the obvious extrapolation that everyone will make at that phrase. It's that regardless of which gender you favour, there'll be a certain _kind_ of person who makes it to the top. It's not whether most men are better or most women are better, it's that those who end up at the top will _not_ actually be representative of the majority of men or women anyway.

    The world today, at least the western world (though I wouldn't be surprised if other parts too) has a very different minority that's disproportionately represented at the top: the sociopaths. It's not even much of a surprise. In a society and culture where we expect -- and indeed _demand_ -- sociopathic behaviour from corporations and politicians, the ones that make it to the top are those who can promise just that: to behave like a sociopath, and take decisions without letting emotions or empathy get in the way. And there are reasons too, such as their being natural actors and having no loyalty except to themselves. So they can put up an outstanding show for the boss and get a promotion, while you're busy doing actual work.

    The thing is, what they do has no resemblance with what Joe Average and Jane Housewife does. Only about 1% of the population scores clean over 30 on an APD (Antisocial Personality Disorder = sociopathy/psychopathy) test. We're talking the creme de la creme, the elite among the elite. (To put it into perspective, the average Joe or Jane have maybe 1 confirmed trait or spurious minor manifestations of 2-3, and even those are often just bad habits or benign when they're not accompanied by others.) They're people who are actually more anti-social (in the medical sense) than the hardened criminals in a prison (who tend to average somewhere in the 20's), yet are smart enough to not end up in prison. You can't really look at what a sociopath does and extrapolate it at what the average man or woman would do, nor viceversa.

    They're not only a minority, but they don't even function mentally in the same way as you do. Even if a lot of common people do get caught in an admiration of sociopaths and their methods, in practice they couldn't do the same things. They're just not wired the same way.

    I.e., what I'm saying is that you can't look at this case and think she's representative for women as a whole. And conversely, those who think that "having women in power would make for a kinder, gentler world" make the wrong extrapolation in the other direction. They look at some of the average women around them and think, basically, "hey, I bet if she was a CEO/Chairman/President/whatever, it would be a nicer world." Well, maybe it even would, except it won't those who end up in position of power.

    Just changing the genre stereotype won't make the world any better, as long as the same kind people are left to run the show. What can change the world is (A) recognizing these people for what they are, and (B) having enough checks and safeguards so they can't run amok and cause major damage.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  28. Used to work for Pattie Dunn - what a change by OutOnARock · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As a former employee of Pattie Dunn when she worked at Wells Fargo Nikko Investment Advisors which became Barclays Global Investors, I always found Pattie to be a person who really cared about her employees and their personal lives. She was always approachable, listened to your concerns no matter how high or low you were in her chain of command, and without sounding too sexist, had a great smile, a charming personality, and was the easiest on the eyes boss I've ever had. I can only imagine what HP has put her through to cause such a change in her attitudes. On the other hand, perhaps this is an example of what has happened to America in general. "Truly a sight to behold. The man, beaten. The once great champ, now a study in moppishness. No longer the victory hungry stallion we've raced so many times before. But a pathetic, washed-up aged ex-champion. " (obscure Better Off Dead quote :) )

    1. Re:Used to work for Pattie Dunn - what a change by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Funny
      As a former employee of Pattie Dunn when she worked at Wells Fargo Nikko Investment Advisors which became Barclays Global Investors, I always found Pattie to be a person who really cared about her employees and their personal lives.
      Apparently, she still cares very much about their personal lives.
  29. This is symptomatic.. by wfberg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In my mind this is symptomatic of the corporate life in the higher echelons. Basically, these people at the top don't have te requisite life experience, or call it wisdom, or even common sense, to act like adults. Corporate life to these people is nothing more than a replay of high school. They're scheming, pulling pranks, cheating, and generally making stuff up as they go along.

    It's not that there aren't established procedures and rules (and laws) of how to monitor employees (even board members). It's that this Ms. Dunn can't be bothered to look it up. Or even ask human resources. Making stuff up as you go along is what passes for "innovative", "bold", "leadership.

    She's cut from the same jib as, say, those Enron guys. These are people who see life as a game, and yes, they're winning, if you keep score the way they do. Morally, as human beings, they're of course pieces of shit.

    It's not surprising the rest of the board members stayed on board. They're used to treating people like children, and they've not fully grown up themselves, so this sort of irresponsible prank seems logical to them. They're the business equivalents of Bill O'Reilly - great ratings, but ultimately they're just spewing hot air, and their oversimplified black-and-white world is so disconnected from the real world, they wouldn't know it if it bit them in the ass.

    But there you have it. Apparently the Chairwoman at HP is willing to go to great, and illegal lengths, to run the company. Will the shareholders say "hey, wait, maybe having someone at the top who's willing to commit felonies isn't such a great idea"? Only time will tell..

    --
    SCO employee? Check out the bounty
  30. They didn't get mine by Groo+Wanderer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Coming from someone who was ripping HP up and down at the time for their moronic behavior, I can say three things with authority. First, I had sources on that level. Second, they didn't get my sources, not even close. Several witchhunters resigned and/or were canned while looking for Inq sources, but as far as I am aware, they did not find a single one, teh fewls. Third, my sources are a lot smarter than Mr Keyworth or Ms Dunn.

    The sad part is, they will probably get away with all of this. The sadder part is they are looking in the wrong place. As a member of that nebulous group know as 'the press', I can say that people speak out and leak when things are going badly, wrong, and management has their heads stuck up their collective asses. Rather than fixing the problem, they assign blame.

    In any case, I should drop my guys a line and have a laugh.

                  -Charlie

    1. Re:They didn't get mine by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Informative

      Charlie is an author for The Inquirer, which has been the main source for leaks from HP since Carly started fucking things up. Including leaks about witchhunts for previous leakers, ampling demonstrating that the witchhunts weren't working. Charlie keeps his sources secret, HP has no way to compel him to release them, and all this is known by anyone who reads The Inquirer which is where the leaks show up. If he had posted anonymously, I would have ignored him. As it is, I've read many previous leaks on The Inq (including the sad/hilarious case of HP purchasing a new corporate jet in the midst of layoff season), and know what he is saying is probably true.

      HP has a fundamental problem. The leakers are the symptom, and their inability to catch any significant number of leakers is evidence that the problem is truly endemic and well known by the employees. It's like catching insurgents -- to do it, you need intelligence, and to get intelligence you need cooperation. If the insurgents have grass roots support, you won't get that cooperation, and you're doomed.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  31. Two wrongs make a Right? by redelm · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It appears that the HP Charwoman believes that leaks are so wrong as to justify conspiracy, fraud and other felonies. That sounds like a control phreak to me. Perhas we should expect nothing less given the corporate selection process.

    However, she is easily indictable and her imprisonment will serve as a fine example for others of her ilk who doubtless think likewise.

  32. Yes and no by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As I was saying in another post, the fallacy there is assuming that it would be the Jane Average that ends up in those positions of power. Except those who end up at the top, male or female alike, are the kind that aren't representative of the John Does and Jane Averages that make up the rest of the population. But that goes the other way too: comparing Stevens to Clinton doesn't really say anything about comparing men to women in general.

    I don't know if men as a whole are better or women as a whole are better (probably neither is better), but comparing the sociopaths at the top won't tell us anything about that. The ones at the top will be the ones who _don't_ actually have the instincts/reflexes/education/etc associated with being either the average man or the average woman. You won't find any maternal or paternal instincts there, just people whose only loyalty is to themselves and care less about everyone else than you'd care about the NPCs in a computer game. You won't find any inherent adherence to either male or female hierarchy/clique/whatever dynamics and mechanisms, either, but at most a determination to mis-use and abuse those to one's own interests. Etc. Anything that you might think of as an inherent trait of either males or females in the average people around you, at that level you won't find people actually displaying either. They may fake it, they may use it to push your buttons, but essentially both are a category of their own that's neither male nor female.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Yes and no by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mostly agree with you.

      Given that corporations are essentially immortal sociopaths, I think their structures *select* for sociopaths or people who are comfortable being in a sociopathic structure.

      Only "young" corporations do not show these traits.

      It is possible to be honest/noble but you won't get campaign contributions from the corporations (so you must be in line with a sociopathic agenda to get funding). The lust for power is very corrupting- even of people who start out good. A lot of idealistic republicans broke their word over term limits because they came to think they were more important than they really were.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  33. OK, obvious question by Intron · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Keyworth was asked to resign but has refused to do so. HP said it will not renominate him to its xxx-member board."

    Just where are HP getting their board members?

    --
    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  34. Re:Which *MAY* be illegal. by DragonWriter · · Score: 5, Informative
    There's no law that makes it a crime to get someone to give you information (unless it's banking information).

    In California, where HP is headquartered, it is a crime to obtain labor through "fraudulent representation or pretense" is guilty just as if they had stolen services with similar value (California Penal Code 532). By representing themselves as the customers of the phone company whose records were requested, they obtained the labor of customer service staff under false pretense.

    It is likewise criminal, in California, to willfully obtain "personal identifying information" (including, among many other thingsother things, name, address, telephone number, place of employment, or social security number) of another and then use that information for any unlawful purpose, including "to obtain, or attempt to obtain, credit, goods, services, or medical information" (Penal Code 530.5, emphasis added), without the consent of the person whose information was used. Here, they used several pieces of personal information concerning the directors targetted to obtain services from people with whom those directors did business, and did so without the directors consent.

    So to say there is no law which makes it illegal to use someone else's personal information to enable yourself to impersonate that person to get someone to give you information is, well, not exactly true, even outside of banking information.

  35. Isn't that how they always do it? by Hap76 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Correcting the problem means admitting that there is one to begin with, and perhaps that one might even be partially responsible for it. These are difficult acts for anyone, let alone someone who seems to think of themselves as infallible. Much easier to dump the complainers and leakers, and continue behaving as before, being careful to make sure that your options can be cashed out quietly, that any contractual benefits are felony-proofed (if such is possible), and that your stockholders and customers can be lulled back to sleep.

    Is this how business always was, and we're just more aware (or cynical) about it, or have the people that run corporations gotten more self-serving recently?

  36. A little extra by Aceticon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Allow me to add a little something that poped-up to my mind today:

    This kind of behaviour is tipical of a certain kind of people who hide behind a crowd and lead it to act in ways which solo individuals never would.

    - If the crowd is on the streets they're "a mob" and the aboved mentioned people are called "rabble rousers" or "inciters to violence"
    - If the crowd sits down in buildings they're "a corporation" and the above mentioned people are called "directors"

    I strongly suspect that personality-wise the same kind of people are behind inciting a mob to linch someone and deciding not to recall a defective product because it's cheaper to pay the familiy of the victims - the only difference is that some have an MBA and some don't.

    It's a strong sign of the decadence of a society when the ones with the MBAs usually get away with a pat on the wrist (and a multi-million dollars golden umbrela).

  37. It reminds me .... by Aceticon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But there you have it. Apparently the Chairwoman at HP is willing to go to great, and illegal lengths, to run the company. Will the shareholders say "hey, wait, maybe having someone at the top who's willing to commit felonies isn't such a great idea"? Only time will tell..


    This reminds me of a couple of years ago when the football (soccer if you're an american) club i'm a fan of elected as president a shaddy lawyer character which years before had scammed some persons out of their moeny but somehow managed to sleeaze his way out of ending up in jail (mostly due to his connections).

    At the time i thought: "Hey, this guy is a bit of a mobster, but at least he's our mobster".

    I believe he's still in jail for defrauding that same football club.

    If you have shares in HP, i suggest you keep this story in mind ...
  38. Not at all by Groo+Wanderer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Dude, don't you hate it when you forget to check "Post Anonymously" box?"

    Not at all. They know who I am, and if they had a shred of evidence that I did anything wrong, they would have sued me long ago. I post everything with my name attached, and with my email on it where applicable. I tried calling HP and talking to them several times, but they did not return my calls. I did leave all my contact info, and have done so numerous times at trade shows. If you don't do anything illegal, you don't have to hide behind anonymity.

    That said, I did not do anything wrong, have never signed an NDA with HP, or agreed to anything of the sort. On top of that I scrub my emails religiously and regularly so if they send me paperwork, they will get nothing because I have nothing. That said, I have looked for the names of the people I wanted to talk to, and I don't have them any more. Sad, a quote on the Inq now would have been quite topical. Scrubbing mail is a double edged sword.

    Either way, I am not worried at all, what are they going to do call up my ISP and pretend they are me to get my records? That would be flat out illegal, and they would never do such a thing.

                -Charlie

  39. Re:It probably won't make any difference. Here's w by ScrewMaster · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, since bus drivers and construction workers (and, yes, software engineers) have to take invasive tests (I had to pee in a cup ... kinda irritated me at the time but I wanted the job and they didn't require any kind of non-compete agreement so I figured it was a reasonable tradeoff) of one sort or another in order to obtain work, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be a requirement for corporate upper management to have to take an APD test. At the very least, they should have to take something like the old MMPI so that we have at least some idea if they are complete whackjobs or not.

    I'm not saying that should result in their not being hired for such positions: that would depend upon an individual corporation's policies. But if the results of such testing were required to be a matter of public record, it would be the first thing a potential investor would examine. It would also discourage other sociopaths from even applying for such positions: the last thing a true sociopath wants is to be unmasked. Yes, I know ... that's rather private data and isn't something that most people would want available to anyone, but if you're not willing to submit to such a test, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to run a major corporation.

    Now, granted, there are those that will complain that such testing and publication would be grossly unfair and violate various civil liberties and all that. And I suppose they'll be right in that: I'm not an attorney so I have no idea of what laws such testing would run afoul. But the unfortunately reality is that many of these individuals absolutely cannot be trusted and some means of early detection needs to be put in place. It really doesn't help when the Ken Lays and Bernie Ebbers and others like them are eventually caught (if they are ever caught) because by then the damage has been done, people have been hurt. Look at what Ms. Fiorina accomplished in just a few short years, and managed to walk away from scot-free. It's also obvious that stringing a few of them up hasn't had the desired deterrent effect either. And why should it? If you feel that you're above the law you're not going to let the law get in your way.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  40. Re:More Perspective by radish · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So it's OK for them to know where I shop, what I buy, where I go and who I talk to but not OK for others to know the same about them?
    What's data mining got to do with anything? This is about spying and fraud.

    They think it's OK to read through employee email and listen in on their phone calls but God help the poor slob who does it to a member of the board?
    Come on - if you make calls or send emails from company devices on company time you have no right to expect privacy, particularly in the time of SOX compliance. Everything I send has to be recorded, by law, in case it's needed in court. If you were to RTFA (or even RTFS) you'd see that the problem here is the hiring of a private security company to obtain personal phone records from someone's home lines. That's not OK, ever.

    --

    ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

  41. Social engineering == lying. by Chas · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While prevarication CAN be a tool in the bag of a social engineer, it's not the only tool. There are numerous times you can tell the entire truth, or say nothing at all, and still elicit the response you desire.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  42. CEO works for board, not other way around. by coyote-san · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Board represents the stockholders and the C-level employees work for the board and at their discretion. That said, there's usually contracts involved that would require substantial payouts when the CEO is canned, but there is absolutely no reason why the board couldn't have heard this relevation, held a vote, then had her escorted off the property on the spot.

    As I understand the situation, the remaining board members aren't entirely in the clear since the CEO appears to have committed criminal acts as a corporate officer and they took no action. At a minimum I would expect them to get rather interesting calls from their corporate director insurance carrier. Nothing like facing personal liability from stockholder suits to focus your attention.

    In the real world, it's much murkier since you can have people who are both C-level employees and board members, and in many cases the CEO is also the chairman of the board. In those cases individuals can have mixed loyalties, but that's why you want outsiders on the board.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  43. Waste of time by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be a requirement for corporate upper management to have to take an APD test.

    The reason that would be a waste of time is that most of these people are really, really smart. Maybe not maths geniuses or that kind of smart, but they know exactly how to pull the levers in people to get what they want. Unless the APD test checks for some sort of chemical imbalance (preferably while they are comatose), they will know exactly what to say to the relevant questions in order to make themselves look as un-sociopathic as possible. Hell, most of them will look it up before the test, or pay a psychologist to do it for them.

    We are trying to determine if you have any positive emotions towards your fellow man. Do you like children?
    Why yes, I love children, I donated $500 to a childrens foundation just this month!
    :D

    There really isn't an easy answer to this one. Can they do the jobs they are employed to do better than anyone else? If the answer is yes, then they belong in that job. The only thing that can be done is to ensure that if they commit crimes, they are punished to an extent that it will give other sociopaths pause before attempting the same thing. If the RIAA (sociopath city) can sue someone per song in their collection, high level corporate crime should be dealt with on a per-victim basis.

    Steal the pension funds of 500 people? Thats 500 counts of theft or fraud, to be run one after another. Even if they only get 6 months per case, thats still 250 years of hard time. That might seem a bit harsh, but as they say, with great power comes great responsibility.

  44. No, not all of them by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    No, not all are psychopaths, but the higher positions _do_ tend to favour those, one way or another. Even if they weren't founded by one (e.g., Hewlett and Packard sure weren't), eventually the owners are gone and/or Wall Street starts _demanding_ someone who'll act like sociopath. And if that doesn't get the Joe Averages out, then they'll sooner or later fall prey to the ruthless.

    And if you want to get technical about it, yeah, it's not just sociopaths out there, it's pretty much a split between those and "narcisists". It's not as much of a saving grace as it may seem. Both have exactly zero empathy for their fellow human, both are equally self centered, both are willing to step on your corpse on their way up. Both are incapable of feeling guilt for it. Both don't show much of either paternal or maternal instincts, and certainly not to their employees. So in a way, we're just splitting hairs at this point. It may not be the medical definition, but I tend to see them as basically nuances of being a sociopath.

    The technical difference is that the narcisist is mostly focused on his own glory, while the sociopath is mostly in it for the entertainment that comes from having the power and causing distress. E.g., a sociopath might fire half the personnel or make everyone take unpaid vacations when there's actually work to do, just because he enjoys abusing his power. The narcissist might do the same thing because he can get more money or glory out of it. Even if just the glory of seeing his name in the newspaper for doing it. E.g., the sociopath might demand 80 hour weeks because he finds it entertaining to show you he's boss. The narcissist might do it because he smells more profit for him that way, and it's only him that matters, not you. The narcissist may then reduce it to 60 hours if it looks like it'll make him look good in the press, though.

    A bigger difference for corporations is that the narcissist is able to plan farther ahead. He's willing to put some long term work and planning into getting a lot of glory and power. The sociopath tends to be focused more on the immediate and short term. Ergo, a lot of them enjoy coming to a company, taking some disastrous decisions, and moving on to the next one. Wall Street loves the sociopaths more because (A) they're more available to be moved in and out for massive axe jobs, and (B) because Wall Street itself has the attention span of a bad ADHD case. It wants action, hype, and big fluctuations _now_.

    It must be very comforting to believe that you are not powerful because you are better than those in power. If you believe you have very little power over your own life, the illusion that those who wield that power are sociopaths (and therefore, not as worthy as you) would be quite attractive.


    This, however, is just an ad-hominem based on nothing more than pompous presumptions. You assume too much about what control I have or don't have, or what I need to belive. It's not a matter of comforting thoughts, it's a matter of calling it how I see it. When you read stuff like this (or most of the news about corporate America these days), and the unrepentance that invariably comes with it, it's hard _not_ to recognize sociopathy.
    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  45. Long time employee, first time truly angry by ContractualObligatio · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Normally when I comment in relation to HP (I'm an employee) I stay anonymous and just correct facts. ACs tend to get modded down but hey, at least that way I don't get my posts interpreted simply by what the reader thinks of HP. But typically the topic is "Alpha vs. Itanium" or somesuch where no matter anyone's claims to knowing the one shining truth, it comes down to matters of opinion (hey, I'm a software guy, what would I know...).

    But this situation is different. It's truly embarassing and I hope Dunn suffers in consequence. Talking to the press is bad. Whether or not you agree, that was what the board decided. Any board member who disagrees should stand up and be counted or have the guts to resign. I get paid good money, have access to confidential information, and would like to think I have the standards to quit rather than get petty ego-boosting revenge by talking to the press. Whistle blowing bad business practice etc is noble. Leaking product roadmaps etc is just masturbating.

    So Keyworth deserves to leave the board. His actions, however, just don't compare to Dunn invading the private lives of her colleagues.

    HP has done a lot and does a lot to be proud of. Every once and a while a salesperson does a stupid thing or a business decision is "sub-optimal", but for instance we haven't joined the ranks of the many tech companies playing silly buggers with the financials. We've been getting our act together over the past year and a lot of us are hopeful we will become a great company again.

    Then last thing before I go to bed (I'm in the UK), I hear that the board doesn't even understand that lying to get an innocent person's personal information is a bad thing. I don't care whether it's illegal or not. It's a shit thing to do. And I hate going to bed pissed off.

    There's one combination of things that always makes me angry. First, acting in a clearly "bad" way - whether that's illegal, unethical, plain rude, whatever. Second, when it's also a stupid thing. What do we get for outing the leak? Not much (but there can be minor advantages to the competition being in the dark for a few months, trust me). Will the way we've behaved come to light? Of course - look at Tom Perkins letters, this eventually becomes a matter of public record via the SEC for fuck's sake! Will it be embarassing if a customer brings it up? Yes, perhaps with a financial impact, and with the story on e.g. front webpage BBC, everyone's going to know about it.

    I hope they ask her to resign.

  46. Let's hear it for Perkins by Infonaut · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here's a counter to the examples we so often see of businessmen doing the wrong thing. You don't often hear about people in business doing the right thing, because that seldom makes a juicy story. In business, you have to make ethical decisions all the time. It's nice to see a news story that sheds some light on one of those decisions properly decided.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ