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Rough Guide to Outsourcing In China
zentec writes, "An article in Design News chronicles WiLife's outsourcing project to China (they make consumer surveillance cameras). It's a tale of a language barrier, misplaced EEPROMS, backyard engineering, incorrectly assembled parts, sloppy engineering, and flaring tempers. That, and an initial defect rate of nearly 80%." In the end WiLife seemed happy enough with their outsourced manufacturing. This is a nitty-gritty account of life under globalization.
aspect ...
You have to look for and carefully choose an employee you can rely on while hiring someone new.
You have to look for and carefully choose a local supplier that you can rely on while getting new suppliers.
You have to look for and carefully choose computer hardware that you can rely on while buying new computer related stuff.
WHY should outsourcing differ ?
There is no answer to this.
Because outsourcing is NOT different.
You have to look for and carefully choose the company/individual to do outsourcing job when outsourcing something.
Its as simple as that.
Read radical news here
In the end WiLife seemed happy enough with their outsourced manufacturing.
The key word: "happy enough". Meaning, not entirely happy, but they saved enough money that it doesn't matter if everything was stellar. It doesn't matter if the products have an operational life of 13 months. As long as they chug along for a while, and break outside of warranty.
I'll keep paying a premium for german engineered and manufactured goods, thanks.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
We test stuff from China. Most of it we don't buy because the quality isn't there. It isn't that much cheaper than the stuff that comes from Taiwan. The Korean stuff isn't bad, better than China, but is hit and miss sometimes. Doing business with China is hard because you really can't return stuff to them. Some of the more advanced companies have "depots" in Hong Kong, but not many yet. Look at Japan 30 years ago, or Taiwan/Korea 10 to 15 years ago, and they were in the same state that China is in now. Today, Japanese product comes at a premium, and is superior to most product (IMHO) that is manufactured here in North America (vehicles immediately spring to mind). Once the Chinese people get their head around the different methodology of doing business in North America, they will come in full force and North America will have some serious issues to deal with.
Mean what you say...say what you mean.
With the apparent lack of quality control, seems that the job has to always be monitored. With all the extra time, you might as well send the work to a country that is a bit closer to the US/Western EU and get the job done right the first time. While worker-friendly countries also make mistakes; there is a better chance of getting it right with well-paid, US/Western EU workers than some country that treats its own Rust Belt worse than anything you would see done to the Appalachians or steel workers.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Sounds like a nitty gritty account of life running a production line.
Plenty of problems doing that right here at home.
P.S. Globalization is here to stay. Any politician promising otherwise is lying or delusional.
I'm naked.
This reminds me of a hand-generated flashlight we purchased this summer. The brand was the same as every other shake-and-get-light flashlight I had seen, but they had recently moved production to China. Sure enough, I couldn't get the flashlight to work when I needed it. Come daylight, I took a close look at the clear plastic case. Sure enough, the uninsulated wires on the coil that the permanent magnet passed through, were twisted together. The flashlight was completely sealed- no way to repair it except to take it back for exchange.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
When it comes to quality they know what they're doing, the management understand the value of getting it right. Of course by that I mean Japanese companies, rather than specifically japanese workers.
? apc=3128339010848601
http://www.reliabilityindex.co.uk/tophundred.html
Deleted
Sure, there could be a bad patch in the insulation, but there are other more likely faults than that.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
as long as Germany's Jews made cheap lamp shades for America, free trade apologists would be in favor of letting the Nazi's own all our debt and our jobs.
What with China's political purges (50 million dead there), harvesting of political prisoners (millions dead there) for body parts, the citizens slaughtering their baby girls (200 million dead there), China is in every POSSIBLE way worse than Nazi Germany.
Welcome to the world of globalism and free trade: for America to compete, we need to go back to the days of sweat shops, factories falling apart, workers being chopped to death by faulty machinery, superpollution, and collapsing mines...er, wait a minute...
Oh and before you neo cons say it, no, there isn't a new thing for misplaced workers to retrain for. Biotech is going offshore. Alternative energy is just going to replace traditional energy jobs. We're not going into a new era of explosive job growth - except, oh maybe the tourism, cashier, waiter and janitor industry. Got belhop hat?
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
The language barrier may be easier to overcome (although some places in US have rather thick accents), but everything else?..
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
>> It's a tale of a language barrier, misplaced EEPROMS, backyard engineering, incorrectly assembled parts, sloppy engineering, and flaring tempers. That, and an initial defect rate of nearly 80%."
That sums up manufacturing in the USA, so what problems did they have in China?
IBM and Nazi, just to mention a notable case.
With all the extra time, you might as well send the work to a country that is a bit closer to the US/Western EU and get the job done right the first time. While worker-friendly countries also make mistakes; there is a better chance of getting it right with well-paid, US/Western EU workers than some country that treats its own Rust Belt worse than anything you would see done to the Appalachians or steel workers.
I'm a bit befuddled by your reply, considering your sig. Without knowing the marginal cost of a move to a country with higher skilled workers would be, it is impossible to make any kind of judgement. Perhaps it is still significantly cheaper to stay in China, manufacturing problems notwithstanding. In fact, I'd wager that it is, otherwise they would already have beat a hasty retreat.
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
Having worked with many people from the area of Taiwan/China in engineering, I have found that many of them don't understand the concept of craftsmanship and maintainability. They're still building crap. I've talked to people who have worked with engineers from the former Soviet Bloc who are the same way. At a company I worked for, a Russian hardware engineering manager bought basically black market Broadcom ethernet PHYs which had some bad bugs. Broadcom also refused to support us because the chips were supposed to have been destroyed. I think Communism killed the concept of quality in these countries.
Right. So now that I accept that I'm in this global economy I would like to purchase my camera directly from China and cut out the R&D. Companies tell me all the time that this is for my benifit (or that they're going to have to lay people off). I want direct from the factory prices on my camera, laptop, G.I. Joe (with the kung-fu grip), etc.
Manufacturing seems to be a phase that every culture goes through. We probably cannot affordably manufacture most things in the US. What we should be doing is designing and building very interesting things that no one else can, things that will earn a premium price. What we are doing is repacking the same old tripe and selling it to each other.
The sad part of this is not that our manufacturing capacity is declining, that is to be expected, but that our manufacturing technology is not the most advance in the world. Everyone talks about cars because it is such a good example. The American manufacturers have been playing catchup for 25 years. Their most recent innovation, the SUV, was a simple machine that anyone could copy, and everyone did. The innovations in the manufacturing process were slight, and the engineering pathetic. It was built as a cash cow, not as a long term solution, an evolving unique product that would help the American brand, although it was initially not a bad try. In the end all the cash that these vehicles brought in were not invested in long term solutions, but squandered to the point where every American car company, both of them, are on their last legs.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Yes, it's true, an engineer in China is typically much less productive than an engineer in the united states. After all, you often get what you pay for. However, I really think all these anti globalization types need to take an econ 101 class. There are problems with what is happening now, but I think the world needs to figure out some way to get along, and protectionism really isn't the answer. Don't people in other countries have just as much right to a job as people in rich countries? I think they do. If companies were somehow penalized for "outsourcing" jobs (or, in other words, giving the job to the guy who they *think* can do it best and cheapest), it would be adding unneeded bloat and cost to products. The consumer ends up paying in the end and weak firms are allowed to continue operating. I'm sorry, but engineers (and all kinds of other white collar & blue collar jobs) are just not as valuable as they used to be to the market place because there are countries like india and china that are willing to do it much cheaper. But seriously, everybody talks about equality in the world and freedom until other countries are allowed to compete with you for your job, and then you're all about giving unfair advantages to rich, fat countries. A bit hipocritical i think.
5. You get to see your product knockoffs on the streets of Hong Kong that much faster because you just handed them your designs. They don't even have to spend the time to reverse engineer it.
Perhaps it is still significantly cheaper to stay in China
I'm sure it is. They've cut their manufacturing cost greatly, which is going to help their bottom line a whole hell of a lot when their customers all run for the hills.
But that's not a problem until next quarter, and then they'll find some new bone to whittle down.
I remember my first encounter with Chinese manufacturing.
:)
The factory had pictures of their product in their brochures. I was about to place a sample order when I noticed a picture of the product being made on their production line. It looked NOTHING like the one in their brochure. Closer inspection revealed that their product brochure consisted of products made by reputable manufacturers but with the brand names edited out (quite poorly). Shame on me for not spotting something so obvious before.
Their actual products - a poor quality copy.
Of course, that is my experience as a sample of one out of one. Hardly representative, I know, but kinda representative of TFA.
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
The third shift is slang for when the CM continues to manufacture more of your product without being asked about it. The goal, of course, is to shunt this product to a separate market and undercut your production (after all, they don't have marketing, R&D, etc to pay for). Since these CMs often handle inventory for you, they can order extra parts without you knowing.
Or they take your design, modify it, and manufacture their own (possibly inferior) version. They have everything they need - board layouts (schematic can be derived), binary object code (for FPGAs, flash memory, etc), parts lists, etc.
Just a hazard of outsourced production.
"We are interested in them to see if they have any synergistic elements that we might benefit from."
Am i the only one who had trouble taking the author seriously after that phrase was uttered?
Sell you economy out to save a few pennies! stupid! you deserve job offshore! more deserving people in china and india!!!
go to work at WAL MART, see where your job go! LOLololo
you call me troll, Fat white nerd man? you cover up truth!
We experience the same kind of issue with our foreign employees (consultants):
* Not very hard workers
* Always on a leave
* Snack and coffee every 30 minutes
* Think they know better than you
* Surf and chat most of the time rather than to improve their competency in the offering
* Request business class for a 8 hours flight because else this is too painful
* Most extended expense sheet you can imagine
By the way we are a German software company with an office in the US....
Perhaps we need a campaign like "Look for the Union Label"...
From what I've seen, products engineered 100% in the US should have significantly better quality, why not point that out?
I'm not really against Chinese outsourcing, but if there IS a quality difference in the end product, then that information could be vital to consumers.
Not that we have the best engineering consistently, but I've never seen a product made in the US released with such poor quality as some of the imports I've seen.
Globalization works in both ways.
...
When there was 'no' globalization, united states did not have access to a market that consists of 1 BILLION people - china. Same goes for many other countries united states now does exports to.
If there is no market, there is nobody to sell to. There is no reason to produce, there are NO jobs.
The point is that, japanese and chinese economies became COMPETENT.
united states was the country to lead the world in free market economy once, but then it grew complacent. the importers then became the exporters now.
What you need to do is to compete. By working harder, inventing new business systems and technologies or anything else.
If that is not something for you, sorry matey, you have to cope up with those - in the end, YOU americans brought competition, free market and such concepts to the world arena
Read radical news here
I've seen this a few times - a poorly run mainly US company that doesn't want to pay for someone that can already do the job but instead gets someone cheaper and expects them to learn how to do it. You don't get Dodgy Bros Manufacturing to build something complex with no problems at home so why expect that from a company in China working outside their feild? As for the language barrier - how can anyone competant outsource anything critical to another country without having someone on staff fluent in the language?
consider how hard it is for the inhouse tech people to talk to non-IT people and have it make sense in english. I thought I was good at it until I realized just how many tech terms most people don't know, lol. When you add in the translation to another language first and almost no IT staff at the US company, you're pretty much garaunteed to have some massive problems with the final product whether it be hardware or software. That's why it's either inhouse or outhouse :D
Is it just me or is it not going to upgrade to Vista in here?
We can trade with Europe. Offshoring to Europe is ok in my book - they have human rights and worker protections. Nice vacations, too.
Given China's human rights problems, if we let China grow, we're screwed. MAJORLY. The whole world will follow their example, they will NOT follow our example. They don't have to.
Our solutions are to:
a) block trade with China.
b) increase relations and trade with Europe, and show long term LEADERSHIP regarding blocking off China... explain why we're doing it, and stick to our principles consistently
c) bite the bullet and go back to manufacturing in the West, for all it costs us
d) develop more mature space travel before China, and do not under any circumstances allow them to spread their horrible Government and misogynist gynocidal culture beyond their airspace.
a, b and c are going to be almost impossible because America is deeply entrenched in a 4 year election cycle that imposes short sightedness on an epic scale. Given our current culture of long term planning-phobia, we could NOT have implemented the Marshall Plan, and we could not have beaten the USSR.
Again, as I said, if we stay the course, we are going to be screwed regardless.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
when what you are paying them yearly is what someone in the US could make in 15 day. that's some $sys$colonization globalization for you...
Maybe I have just been reading to much Sun Tzu, but this seems to be an earth aspect problem.
Morals have no place in economics. Profits first, people last. In greed we trust.
If Libertarians are such big kids, then why is it that you can't even pwnz0r New Hampshire with your much ballyhooed free state project thingy? Oh wait, your response is going to answer that question for us!
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
kdawson is really bangin the drum on this outsourcing stuff. News for Nerds is "OMG! we're all going to lose our jobs to the Asians!!!!" when kdawson is here, apparently. That and voting machine conspiracy theories.
With Zonk, it's all about hating Sony (er, I mean $ony). (Hmm, Sony is Japanese. Maybe the new Slashdot editors just don't like Asians.)
Where's the wholesome Microsoft-bashing and SCO-hating that built this site?
That means, a lot of college degreed CIS/CS/MIS grads who are working at Wal Mart or other lower paying jobs because their degrees that they got after 1995, with tons of student loan debt, are worth little if anything because of offshoring.
Let me repeat: they have jobs, ergo they're not unemployed. But they have jobs that are different, and far, far lower paying, than what they were trained for. Which is why the middle class is shrinking. But don't believe me. Read this. http://www.factcheck.org/article249.html
BTW the United States goes by a U3 style of unemployment measurement which puts us at 4.7%; if we go by Europe's U6 standard, the BLS says we're closer to the 9% level. That is very close to Europe's horrible unemployment rate which you hear so much about on Fox News.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
"Completely uneducated workers (often child/prisoner/slave) in harsh and very unsafe conditions didn't work out so good. But we saved a few bucks, woohoo!!!"
Welcome to China.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
I've heard quite a few outsourcing screw up anecdotes. It just doesn't matter. People may pay lip service to quality but then they buy on price. The cost differential is so great companies will endure alot of bad experiences to get the china price and eventually, they will find a good vendor. I think alot of these outsourcing ain't working out stories are just wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of outsourcing. I just don't want like minded people getting their hopes up when they hear stories like this. For every horror story, there are many more "success" stories.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Here is one article. And another article from a right wing perspective, and yet another article from the left side of the aisle. Then there's this and this and this, too.
y Id=1125056c hina30mar06.shtml0 0.html
Any more objections?
Oh and about their prisoner harvesting?
http://www.american.edu/TED/prisonorgans.htm
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?stor
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/harvestingorgansin
http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,,1756808,
http://www.rense.com/general10/org.htm
Thank you very much and have a nice day.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
"When there was 'no' globalization, united states did not have access to a market that consists of 1 BILLION people - china. Same goes for many other countries united states now does exports to. "
Right so it's all a matter of buy to sell ratios. If you sell more then you buy then you win. If you buy more then you sell then you lose.
China is a big winner because they sell more then they buy. Same with oil countries. Other countries the shoe is on the other foot.
evil is as evil does
So now that I accept that I'm in this global economy I would like to purchase my camera directly from China and cut out
Ever notice how the old trusted American names in TVs have kind of been marginalized. When was the last time you saw an RCA TV? a Zenith? You can still buy RCA from the Radio Shaft. Yeah. Like I'm going there for a TV with Pest Buy and Suckit Shiatty across the street. What do you see on the shelves of those stores, not to mention Mal*Wart? They have the familiar Japanese and Korean brands like Panasonic, Sharp and Samsung but then there are brands like Norcent, probably a chinese company, and I must say Norcent makes a fine looking TV.
My point: the companies who resorted to outsourcing as a survival strategy will ultimately succumb to this fate. At some point they become baggage. They outsource themselves right out of existence. This is the folly of outsourcing.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
See also
You buy much more from your grocery store than you sell to them, unless you're an employee. Do they "win" at your "expense"?
Here's your 200 million:
0 5/01/08/china_plans_to_ban_selective_abortion_over _gender?mode=PF
n a-usat.htm (40 million baby girls destroyed)
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/20
Now here's a more conservative estimate:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/06/19/chi
That's only 3 times worse than the # of Jews killed in Germany.
Now you're haggling with me over the magnitude of how much worse China is than Germany.... not whether or not it is.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Case in point:
h tml?net
:)
Cisco IP stolen by Huawei:
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2003/0709huawei.
http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/corp_012303.html
I have an example about Cherry qq ripping off the Chevrolet Spark, I'll post it later.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
...and that can often include "extras." Extras like lead (Pb). I work with a salesman who had a customer who bought paint from a plant in China because it was incredibly cheap. Something like a third of the cost in the US. Testing showed it to be full of lead, something they used years ago as pigment. Luckily, the company never actually used it, though I never heard of how they disposed of it.
I'm sure a less ethical company would just "overlook" that and send lead-painted product out the door.
-- Fugacity: Confusing chemists since 1908
Well,
The solution then seems to be leveling out of all the countries, all selling as much as they are buying, and it seems this is where we are headed to.
Read radical news here
Blatant Trolling: n., the act of stepping aside to let the opposition make a complete and total ignorant ass of themselves in public.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
it all depends on what you have to sell and what you want to buy. There are countries where there is nothing to sell really so they sell their labor for cheap. There are countries where there are abundant natural resources so they sell those. There are countries where they buy stuff, add value (manufacturing) and sell the result.
Each country is different. Suffice it to say most countries will buy more then they sell (measured in dollars) because they all need gasoline at a minimum. If your country is not rich in minerals, water, trees, oil, or other natural resources all you have left to sell are "intelectual property" and labor. In other words your people.
evil is as evil does
When there is no region encoding, drug reimportation bans,anti online gambling bans,Slave labor,prison labor,labor in toxic conditions and a host of other things that are not subject to "free trade" because it would hit the pocket book of the multi nationals, then you can have your globalism and econ 101. Until then, it all just a rigged game, no one but the elite at the top win. Globalism in it's present form is nothing more than racketeering scheme with a somewhat prettier face than vito the mobster and better PR department. Fuck globalism, Fuck free trade. I do not wish to be serf, I do wish my fellow country men to be serfs in order to satisfy someones sense of having a superior understanding of economics. I get it, millions get and quite frankly are sick of it. If you want free trade, then by god make it free trade. Equal rules/tariffs for all sides with no artifical limits. Don't make it a race to the bottom. Otherwise, fuck you and anyone espousing this bullshit.
When was the last time you saw an RCA TV? a Zenith?
We have an RCA TV in our living room.
We, ummm, bought it at WalMart.
You've got to be Chinese?? Right? Perhaps Punjabi or Filippino, but probably Chinese. Why? Absolutely no depth or erudition to your thinking.
You've not read any articles a /., right? Especially not the one just posted -- the article by Paul Craig Roberts?
I mean, there's never been any such thing as a free market economy, don't you have any knowledge whatsoever??? This will be my last post to /. as I've noticed the vast majority of sharp people no longer post, and the remainder are completely pattern-challenged!
I should not reply to cowards but....
Is that really how you think? That the only measure of gain and loss is by examining each one of your interactions in isolation?
Anyway to answer your question...
Yes he won. I shopped there, his profits increased, my spendable income decreased, the money I could have earned in interest by saving that money decreased, the money I could have made by investing that money decreased.
He won, I lost. I lose everytime I pay interest, I win every time I make interest.
evil is as evil does
I stand corrected. Mal*Wart does have them. I tend to avoid going there. I suppose the brand name is still worth something. RCA closed the last of their US plants in 97. I worked at the Indianapolis RCA plant in the 80s when they still made sets.
Did you notice any other name on your TV, i.e. manufactured for RCA by ____ or have they dispensed with all that? For example, RCA didn't make their VCRs even though they held several key patents. During the 80s, most were made by Hitachi and private labeled as RCA.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
I too got scammed on the shake light... Bought one at the gun show, showed my grandfather. He wanted some too (gifts), so I got a couple more. When I got home, I pulled them all out of their boxes to make sure they worked... And one had a busted switch. Took it apart, and found batteries in my shakelight. Sure was disappointed.
:)
Anyways, went to another gun show, and saw a booth with all sorts of LED light stuff. The guy had a strip of white LEDs for undercounter lighting, and LED conversion kits for Maglite flashlights (made in the USA). I picked up a light strip, and was looking all over for the 'made in china' label, and couldn't find it! Later the owner's son came up and told me that they built most their products locally. The guy used to work for Intel, got tired of the corporate life, and started designing LED setups instead.
I went over to his house, and saw his little workshop... He was employing a highschooler to assemble the setups he'd designed.
Anyways - he also sold some 'made in china' LED products. Told him about my disappointment with the shakelight, and he sells a 'generator' light that has a small electric motor and capacitors. I got one and took it apart to look for batteries.
Next time you're emergency flashlight shopping, look for a crank and you'll probably be okay.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
I was in China for a training in Guangzhou and i wish to add/differ the following:
1. Hotels and restaurents are not that clean. McDonalds fries are the closest thing you get to clean cooked food. They prefer to just dump living animals in boiling water enough to kill them, not cook. This approach is not to our liking. And it smells horrible.
Hotels are aquariums, and you can see the waiter move to the next table with a live Lobster, put it in boiling water for a few seconds to kill it and then server it. The diners would cut up this live lobster while its writhing trying to escape and eat it off.
Enough to make you and me throw up.
2. Take enough ready-cooked food with you (Batchelor soup packets, noodles), etc.
Chinese food is NOT chinese take-away in US. You would be surprised at what they eat.
3. Take some mandarin language visiting cards of your Hotel address for Taxi. Taxi drivers can't speak or understand English and if you show the Mandarin card they will drop you exactly at Hotel. Else be prepared to spend about US$50 on taxi wandering alone.
4. USD is NOT universal currency here. RMB is their national currency, and they don;t accept USD at all sundry shops. Don't expect the Hotel to change your USD.
5. Banks do change USD to RMB but be prepared have official delays, lunch, etc., Be prepared to spend atleast 2 hours in changing money. If you are flying through HK, please change USD to RMB in HK itself. Saves lot of trouble.
6. Carry your passport ALL along. Be prepared to answer Police queries at any time. Address the cop respectfully unlike here. Loss of face is very important here and if you abuse or insult the cop, be prepared to have a very hard time. OTOH be respectful and bow as you hand over your passport, you can expect a quick wave over. Its not just arrogance, its their culture. You can argue respectfully, without being angry. If still having problems, ask for written orders from his superior. That will stop them in their tracks like anything.
7. Hand over cash/visiting cards with BOTH hands. This signifies respect. Expect the same.
8. Make sure your contact there is a high-ranking official who has subordinates reporting to him. That way you can be sure he would assign some subordinates to "guide" you around. These people are your only friends in China.
They would buy you lunch and dinner as they would be instructed. Do Not stop them and offer to pay as its an insult.
9. Bargain at electronic shops a lot and visit malls WITH a Mandarin-speaking local.
10. Do NOT think it is easier to rent and drive a car in China. Roads and highways in Guangzhou are very broad and much better than here, BUT the similarity ends there. The drivers are horrible and buses/trams/cars go at 60 mph inside city lanes. If you have the mentality of Genghis Khan, you can drive your own car.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
"a poorly run mainly US company that doesn't want to pay for someone that can already do the job but instead gets someone cheaper and expects them to learn how to do it." Except that they seem to be making it work. Sure, they had some start-up problems... but they also made some mistakes in the parts they brought over. It seems like it went fairly well overall, to me.
"how can anyone competant outsource anything critical to another country without having someone on staff fluent in the language?"
Hmmmmmmm. Competant? Not in my dictionary.
I'm sure that's coming soon. Why should India and China work cheap so American businesses can make huge profits on products. It's only a matter of time before middle management and executive positions migrate closer to the worker locations. It has never made sense (logical or economic) to work through so many layers in order to get things done by outsourcers. Once management, work force and facilities are in foreign countries, why would they let profits go back to outside corporation.
Being neither of these, i can myself easily deduct that you yourself are mentally challenged, as proven by your argument-lacking, insult-bearing post.
Read radical news here
When was the last time you saw an RCA TV? a Zenith?
Like brands that actually lasted (even ones such as Curtis-Mathes), finding anything domestic with a circuit in it is like finding the Holy Grail. It supposedly exists, but it is mythical in nature.
We have an RCA TV in our living room.
Rebranding doesnt count. I hope you have space for the extra TV to replace that one when it implodes.
As for Walmart, mind the various things they've done (Union hostility by closing a store in Canada (Jonquiere) that "card checked" in Canada by (incorrectly) stating it "barely made a profit", locking employees in and not allowing them to collect overtime, healthcare that is designed to be hard to get- encouraging the abuse of government programs, and pushing cities to build even if the citizens do not want it) would probably make Sam Walton spin at 75rpm in his grave.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Let's be VERY clear here: the ONLY reason globalization and outsourcing is expanding is because LABOR costs in India and China are significantly lower. If we only paid our people $1,200 / year like they do in China, then we would blow the chineese away. Product quality of outsourced manufacturing is also typically lower mainly due to the huge turnover rate in chineese companies - they have increasing competition for qualified workers and pay bottom dollar for them.
The FACT is that US productivity continues to rise due to the FACT that people are working harder, longer, and developing new business systems and technologies. Check the Bureau of Labor Statistics web site for the data.
Or at least take econ 201, you learn that everything in econ 101 is a drastic oversimplificiation. The US economy won't buckle if we stop buying chinese knock-offs or outsourceing the next widget design. Some free trade is only logical, eg. Alaska can supply king crab to trade to Flordia for oranges. Alaska _could_ grow oranges in green houses, and FL _could_ cultivate crabs in huge refrigerated pools -but it would be stupidly expensive.
Why bother with china, we'd be better off outsourcing to the central/south americas... At least then we can sleep at night knowing we're not supporting a brutal regeime.
Truth is, most of their stuff is garbage. Wal-mart is mostly chinese crap, and it's utter complete crap.
Electronics, crap. crack any typical chinese manufactured bit of kit and you'll find weirdly put jumpers, sloppy hand soldering, and generally the cheapest components imaginable.
Chinese motors... holy crap, dont' get me started. Every few years someone trys to get chinese bikes imported. They are all 20 yr. old Honda designs - copies poorly. the tolerences they machine to are laughable (ie. they'll last a year max).
Maybe someday they'll improve their quality, but as opposed to the stereotype they're really awful at details.
Thanks a lot article author (Bring'Em Young university is a moron - er I mean mormon university) and it's a joke. Thanks for sending jobs to china uncle tom.
No. you are leaving out many other factors. Lets examine the setting :
Yes, labor costs in china and india HAVE BEEN phenomenonally lower. They have started to increase as per the supply-demand workings. However, even when they were paranormally low, the civilization-old market concept applied - TOO cheap, low quality. As always, if you wanted to have good work done, you had to choose and pick a contractor that had a reliable record and did good job.
Will the situation change about outsourcing, now the labor costs are on the rise there ?
No.
Because there are many more other factors that encourage outsourcing :
First, HIRING some employee to do in-house jobs is much more costly, and leave aside that, TROUBLESOME legally, as when you sign an employee in it means you have signed under to many regulations, social bills, rights etc that you need to take care about and manage. This is dreadful for companies.
Second, if you hire a local software house to do your job, same goes, signing the contract will mean that you have signed under many state and federal trade laws, regulations and so on. Considering billion dollar lawsuits can be filed in u.s. with pathetically stupid reasons, and surprisingly, won, this is another deterrent.
Third, a local software house or contractor is not so bound to you employment-wise. They/he/she can find other jobs, contracts and so on. Ie - you might be a small fish for them, even if you are not, still, u.s. is a place that enforces good trade practices and business misconduct is much lower. However, a contractor in some country like china, or india, will prefer to do business with u.s. partners. Because they/he/she will know that business misconduct chance is significantly lower in u.s. than locally or regionally. This will make the overseas contractor more bound with its customer, which is another factor for wanting to outsourcing, especially for the small businesses.
and in some other thought, u.s. have always been a country that did trade with developing new stuff, new business systems, methods and such. So, this is no surprise, what you are telling, and if you ask me it seems just normal.
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OK, setting aside the fact that your post is borderline incoherent, you said No then brought up labor related costs as the BIGGEST factor. Legal issues related to labor is a labor cost. Benefit related cost such as healthcare and unemployment is a labor cost.
If you somehow think that using a manufacturer in China means no contracts or legal issues, then you are out of your tree. In fact companies that are not totally clueless will stipulate in the contract that their home state or whatever has jurisdiction over all disputes and not some random province in China.
That said, you have ignored EVERY SINGLE company press release and quotes from executives who univerally claim that labor costs IS their reason for moving operations overseas. NONE cite regulations or legal costs. But whatever.
RTFA, if you code, and that's a mighty big assumption, if it equals your reading comprehension you are in some serious do do, mei mei.
B-Y-U,
B-Y-U,
Where the girls are girls and the boys are too!!
"In the end WiLife seemed happy enough with their outsourced manufacturing..."
So they were willing to accept mediocrity over decent quality.
And people wonder why so many electronic items barely last a year or so. Sheesh... Guess I won't be buying a WiLife product any time soon.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Unfortunately, many of the products the US makes right now that the rest of the world wants are software and content (music, movies, etc.), which most of Asia rips off without paying for it. If the money for pirate versions of Windows, Hollywood movies, etc. was flowing back to the US, their balance of trade would be considerably better than it is.
What was once true, is no longer so
It is no denying that the hourly cost of labor was and will be the biggest incentive.
and there is no denying that many companies which outsource are either unaware or blatantly ignoring what state and federal law might be in effect to outsourcing in their area. Also theres no denying that most of the companies are willing to undertake such risks, as it helps them escape many legal burdens, whether you label them as labor costs too or not.
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Well,
Do not forget that in turn china and southeastern asia absorbs a whole lot of u.s. products, which are physical and have much more cost to produce and produced by companies that employ many many more people than the entertainment or it sector.
Not only to mention that china is one of the biggest buyer of u.s. government bonds, supporting u.s. government debt.
So its a tradeoff.
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You start out saying that the reasons that outsourcing is big is because the US doesn't compete well, innovate, and work hard. I refute saying that it's really labor costs. You claim that I'm wrong that it's really about labor costs, while really agreeing with my statments and throwing in other bizzare "reasons" that I refute. Then you finally admit that it's all labor costs but with the attitude that I'm still wrong.
Whatever.
The facts are that Labor is really one of the ONLY savings, and it's so huge that it offsets all the other expenses that are LARGER such as the cost of lower quality (which is huge,) the costs of shipping, costs of delays due to shipping, managing manufacturing on the other side of the planet (which frequently requires that someone MOVE there and LOTS of flights,) retraining workers all the time, bribes that need to be paid to the corrupt government, etc. The only way that you can really grasp the issues is if you were involved (as I have been) with projects that were moved overseas. It's not all roses - in fact it is a royal pain in the ass that brings it's own challenges that need to be dealt with continuously.
What was it that made the labor costs in u.s. to be substantially higher than the rest of the world, at the start of globalization, especially internet globalization then ?
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More than fear, the case was that China produced everything that they could need. The only ware they require viciously was silver, hence the Manila Galleon traded Mexican and Peruvian silver for Chinese exports.
Other imports were clockworks, but only as novelty items for the emperor.
Then the British found that they could produce in India something that the Chinese would get hooked on: opium. When the Chinese authorities found that their subjects wre smoking their lives away and their officers being bribed, they rejected British trade. The British Parliament debated whether the Navy should force the Chinese authorities to allow their drug traffic. Eventually they democratically decided so, and attacked China.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
First, the premise of your question is wrong. Perhaps you need to rephrase it like: "Why are labor costs higher in industrialized nations?" I would suggest if you REALLY want to get an answer that you take some time to read up on (china and US) history and economics. It's not a topic that can be effectivly answered in a short post as you need the background to understand it. I'll give you a few clues to start you down your path: Standard of living, Cost of living, economic model. Look at the level different segments of the economy make up the GDP, and then look at the employment in those segments.
I'm not so sure that Chinese isolation was a conscious decision rather than a well working autarky.
For hard protectionism, look to Tokugawa Japan. They closed their borders to everybody but a bunch of Chinese, Koreans and Dutch, under very stringent conditions. They spent centuries in peace and isolation. It took Commodore Perry's black ships to open the Japanese ports. This caused the Meiji Revolution who decided to modernize/Westernize almost the whole country (military, politics, industry, culture,...). In 40 years, Japan was beating the Russians in East Asia.
Compare with Siam who was more open to foreign influences.
Probably there are more factors than mere "isolationism superceded by modernization", though. Japan was capable of rebuilding itself again after WW2.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
I think that the jury is out if Japan was capable of rebuilding itself after WW2 had they been allowed to remain isolationist and maintain their historical societial organization.
The japanese constitution was essentially a US draft granting civil rights to women and younger sons (instead of the historical "house/patriarch" system. The US pretty much forced the dissolution of the zaibatsu (large business cartels) as part of the economic stabilization acts. I think most historians would agree that the societal organization post-war imposed by the US was pretty much the catalyst for Japanese recovery after WW2 (although there's obviously no way to know if it would have worked the other way).
Siam on the other hand although was opened to foreign influence and trade, but was controlled by a monarchy that avoided foreign investment and ownership (e.g. loans for infrastructure development). Many historians regard this as one of the primary reason that Siam fell behind in their modernization effort even though they were open for trade (although some historian blame the French for appropriating land in Siam by force for their own purposes). Without foreign investment, their economy couldn't grow very fast just relying on income from trade.
What with China's political purges (50 million dead there), harvesting of political prisoners (millions dead there) for body parts, the citizens slaughtering their baby girls (200 million dead there), China is in every POSSIBLE way worse than Nazi Germany.
Oh, give me a break here. China is better than Nazi Germany in every POSSIBLE way. Except for perhaps beer, but I would be willing to make do without if it came down to that.
Your comment about "200 million baby girls" makes me guess you are one of those "prolife" people. And guess what, Hitler was "prolife", so I can really see how you arrive at your conclusion.
(And noone is denying there are human rights violations in China. I would be the first one to advocate sanctions against China for it, but you give me second thoughts...)
I say China is worse than Nazi Germany. I post links to facts that show it. You say that's wrong... you post exactly what to back up your counter claim? BTW Hitler encouraged abortions for Jews. You're wrong on that count, too.
Oh and let me say this very slowly so you'll understand it.
China has a 1 child policy. They enforce FORCED abortions on women pregnant with their 2nd baby. Are you still following me on this? That means China is DENYING its citizens reproductive rights.
So... by supporting trade with China, you are also supporting an ANTI CHOICE regime. But you're anti-choice, which is why you are going to argue with me...
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Curiously though, though you may have not been able to perceive, i have education on economics and history sufficient enough to talk on both these topics.
Knowing that mechanics and intricacy discussions end up as endless debates, i prefer to discuss these matters from their broader perspective.
Let me sum up why living standards, gnp, hence cost of labor are higher in "industrialized nations", right from where they started to be higher in world history - beforehand i would like to point out that im neither a communist or socialist :
All these so called "industrialized" nations except japan have come from imperialistic backgrounds, all having colonies to some degree that they could exploit and sell products to.
This, is a situation that boosts economy and innovation, however it is IMBALANCED in world perspective.
Correcting, it is a preferrable situation as long as there is no globalization, the "underdog" countries cant cope up with you, cant sell back, cant compete due to any reason.
At the end of imperialistic era, after the 2 world wars, the rising consciousness of people caused the governments to adopt more humanist policies. This, combined with the nature of free market concepts, have created an increasing amount of openness and opportunities towards and for the other "developing" nations. However, due to the political situation of polarized world, there was still some measure of, supression, if you will, of the "developing" economies - political games, coups, puppet dictators installed, petty regional wars that were stirred by either pole's "secret service"s and so on.
This had been the case until latter 20th century, when rising awareness of the people in matters humane and political and social, and increasing technological development that causes increasing communication and better connectivity between people have further lessened the 'supression', along with rising effectiveness of international organisations like wto, opec and so on.
And, coming of the internet is a final blast on old imperialistic, imbalanced state of economic situations, both between nations and inside the nations.
Hence, the free market is continually leveling out nations, to the point that there will be no nation that "sells more than it buys". This imbalance was the main cause that easy, high living standard life with exceptional pay could be maintained, and as the means to do it are gone now, albeit by psychopatic hard work, it will no longer be the case.
Japan is some nation that stands apart from natural flow of the history of the world, due to their collective social understanding and action. However they are themselves a proof that psychopatic hard work nationwide cant be maintained, judging from the state of japanese youth.
All in all, we are heading towards a world that people will live in standards similar and abundant to each other, and only individuals with great prowess will be the ones that live above those standards.
I have no fear though, given the trend of the technological improvements and standardization of things once thought science-fiction, even lower-than-average standard in future will be something people cant even dream of now.
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I shall preface these comments by saying I have done a fair amount of business in Taiwan and northeast mainland China (primarily in Shanghai and Beijing).
1. Hotels and restaurents are not that clean. McDonalds fries are the closest thing you get to clean cooked food. They prefer to just dump living animals in boiling water enough to kill them, not cook. This approach is not to our liking. And it smells horrible.
I don't know about the smell, but if you stay in a decent hotel you won't have these problems. Marriott and Shangri-la have several sites in major cities, and will provide a more Western-style approach.
2. Take enough ready-cooked food with you (Batchelor soup packets, noodles), etc. Chinese food is NOT chinese take-away in US. You would be surprised at what they eat.
Again, if you cannot find Western-style (or other non-Chinese) food you are not looking. Noodle packages are readily available in corner shops, so it would be silly to bring them along.
4. USD is NOT universal currency here. RMB is their national currency, and they don;t accept USD at all sundry shops. Don't expect the Hotel to change your USD.
Bollocks. Hotels and banks are the only recommended places to exchange currency. Not only are they reputable (and accountable) locations, but they will provide a receipt for the exchange itself. Hint: you will need this receipt as proof of a legal transaction if you want to change the currency back when you leave.
5. Banks do change USD to RMB but be prepared have official delays, lunch, etc., Be prepared to spend atleast 2 hours in changing money.
Also wrong. If you present your passport and the currency to exchange, the transaction should take only a few minutes. I have exchanged currency quite a few times, and have never spent more than ten minutes doing so (unless that time was spent in casual conversation).
8. Make sure your contact there is a high-ranking official who has subordinates reporting to him. That way you can be sure he would assign some subordinates to "guide" you around. These people are your only friends in China. They would buy you lunch and dinner as they would be instructed. Do Not stop them and offer to pay as its an insult.
If these people are your only friends in China you are doing something wrong (e.g. acting like a lout). The "subordinate" will likely have instructions to take you to lunch, but offering to pay is not an insult; in fact, you will gain face with the customer if you do so [in a respectful fashion - don't act as if you are throwing money around].
9. Bargain at electronic shops a lot and visit malls WITH a Mandarin-speaking local.
Learn some basic Mandarin and do your own bargaining: you will get better results.
All in all, it sounds like you had one short and unpleasant trip to China (and stayed in a substandard hotel). However, one should not extrapolate from a single data point, particularly when the results of that extrapolation are demonstrably incorrect.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.