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The Information Factories Are Here
prostoalex writes, "Wired magazine has coined a new term for the massive data centers built in the Pacific Northwest by Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo! Cloudware is, ironically, a return of the centralized data and bandwidth power houses caused by the decentralized and distributed nature of the Internet. George Gilder thinks we're witnessing something monumental: 'According to Bell's law, every decade a new class of computer emerges from a hundredfold drop in the price of processing power. As we approach a billionth of a cent per byte of storage, and pennies per gigabit per second of bandwidth, what kind of machine labors to be born? How will we feed it? How will it be tamed? And how soon will it, in its inevitable turn, become a dinosaur?'"
At some point massive data centers won't provide incremental benefits unless the massive increases in processing power are met with proportional decreases in bandwidth prices. Sure, bandwidth prices have dropped, but not by nearly the rate of price/teraflop processing has. Companies like Google recognize this, and are investing in their own fiber to compensate. But the telecommuncations companies are the ones that originally build these lines, and it's unfortunately in their best interest to keep the supply of spare bandwidth very low.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
Hopefully we've slowed its inevitable takeover of the race by giving it an extremely macho name. I for one welcome our fluffy cloudware overlords.
What are the odds that some idiot will name his mutex ether-rot-mutex!
" And how soon will it, in its inevitable turn, become a dinosaur?'"
I don't know if you realize this, but the idea that dinosaurs were an incapable species is a myth? They obviously didn't last millions of years because of any defects. But when a big-ass meteor comes crashing into the planet, any species capable or not would be hard-pressed to survive.
what kind of machine labors to be born? How will we feed it? How will it be tamed? And how soon will it, in its inevitable turn, become a dinosaur?
How will we feed it? Read the article about the robot that identifies human flesh as bacon and see if that answers your question.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
When we look at our current situation, we see that we have data 'here' and data 'there'. When we want to have more data, we need to go 'there' to bring the data 'here' for viewing. In the most extreme (and common) case, the data is only temporarily copied from 'there' to 'here' and once we are done with the data it is deleted from 'here'.
The future will eliminate that differentiation. Data will not be 'here' or 'there'. Rather, it will be. Data will simply exist and we will access it as if it were immediately 'here' all the time.
It will take quite a bit more technology to make this a reality, but the Internet is the first baby step away from separation of data repository and the user. Now, users can access data 'there' on a browser which is 'here' with a few keystrokes. In the future, this action of 'getting' data will be eliminated completely.
How I think that will occur is neither here nor there, but I guarantee that this is what will happen.
"What Gilder calls 'petascale computing' is anything but free. The marginal cost of supplying a dose of processing power or a chunk of storage may be infinitesimal, but the fixed costs of petascale computing are very, very high. Led by web-computing giants like Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Ask.com, companies are dumping billions of dollars of capital into constructing utility-class computing centers. And keeping those centers running requires, as Gilder himself notes, the "awesome consumption" of electricity"
As I noted in our commentary at Data Center Knowledge, the power issues with high-density blade server computing has been understood for years. Back in 2002, Liebert and APC and other equipment vendors were developing products that could address huge heat loads. They saw it coming, and sensed a market opportunity. So where were the chip makers? Even as cooling vendors prepared for the results of the huge power and heat loads, little was done to address their source.
RichM
Data Center Knowledge
I think that the Data center will eventually go the way of the dodo, or at least these massive data centers. We have all heard of Google's, and I think it is Sun who are trying to create, or have created portable data centers. How long is it before there is one in every town. Just like Starbucks or McDonald's. They are going to be able to serve up anything, tv, applications super quick because the latency is so slow. Also they aren't economical, they require tons of energy, cooling, personnel. One of these portable data centers probably will need one guy to check on it, maybe not even that, through remote diagnostics and redundancy built into the system, they might be able to afford to just have a couple guys service hundreds of them. I won't need to clog the pipes to search for something or read my email because it is in Washington, rather it is just going to be a short hop or two away from me. Increasing speed, decreasing overall bandwidth use and being good for the consumer. http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/18/suns-project-bl ackbox-datacenter-in-a-container/
> "what kind of machine labors to be born?"
As the saying goes, don't anthropomorphize machines: they hate that.
The Army reading list
If information factories are coming here then is cheap colocation and cheap bandwidth coming to the great NorthWest? Where can I find some?
You rock.
pennies per gigabit per second of bandwidth
It's only pennies per Gbps if you measure your total bandwidth in shit-tons. Only way you get that good of a deal is if you buy in a very very large volume. Until the prices are like that across the board, I think this article can be shelved.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
What is going to happen, or what is happening, is that the service value of information is exceeding the content value of information, and will continue to do so at a greater rate from now on. The information age is doing to information services what the industrial revolution did for production. Eventually, information restrictions like copyrights will be such an incredible and annoying hinderence on providing information services that the financial pressure to kill them will become unbearable.
And how soon will it, in its inevitable turn, become a dinosaur?'"
1) Develop AI 2) Engineer cars that transform into robots. 3) Use a stop watch to time the speed it takes to go from car to dinosaur. 4) Flee in panic.
God spoke to me.
from studying benchmarks, it usually takes about two years (and sometimes two and a half years) to double scores on pure cpu benchmarks and system level benchmarks (like sysmark).
i disable sigs
Download a file- kill a salmon.
Why did they get somebody to draw this little beauty, instead of taking a picture? Or is this one of those new-fangled pixel-per-pixel cameras? ;)
Oh, don't mind me, I'll go back to my corner.
It's never just a game when you're winning. - George Carlin
Didn't cloudware happen the first time during the 1990's and called "dot com" boom?
Genuine core knowledge will always, by its very nature, be very less demanding on
storage space than the hype and bable of what most knowlegde published requires.
ultimately the hype and babel will manifest a bottomless pit as we can see from spam experience.
Hmmm, now where is that key and lock for that pit?
Authority questions you. Return the favor.
if yes, which one SP1, SP2 ...?
Linux
if yes, which one Ubuntu, RedHat, Suse, Debian...?
Unix
if yes, which one HP Unix, BSD Unix...?
Windows Vista
if yes, ...then i must say wow you won't need any antivirus ;)
GoogleOS
when did you do that? :)
Interesting choices for running data centers though ...:)
-- "Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" - TAE --
In general, I think that it makes sense to "outsource" basic infrastructure. I used to run my own servers, but after figuring the costs for electricity, bandwidth, and hardware costs, I switched to leasing two managed virtual servers - paying for the CPU, memory, and bandwidth resources that I need. I view Amazon's EC2 service the same way: when I need a lot of CPU time over a short time interval, simply buy it.
...and in 2025 the Galactic publishing company, well known for their travel guide, The Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, bought Google to include their data as a subset of the entry of a little planet in the backwaters of the universe, called earth. Just in case someone wished to travel there ....
Participatory Governance : The only feasible option for a real democracy, where everyone really does have a say.
" in 25 years we will have ONE THOUSAND times the performance. and, in 50 years we will have ONE MILLION TIMES THE PERFORMANCE!!!!!!!" Yeah... we've been doubling for the last 25 years already, so in 25 years we're at a million already...
If you don't like my sig then don't read it.
Reply to (#16791438)
.com crash is evidence of how poorly the mainstream understands this."
"Whether it's the MPAA/RIAA, or Microsoft, the meteor has hit the ground. The dinosaurs that cannot adapt may make a lot of noise in their death throes, but they will fade into irrelevance."
Talk about faith in "survival of the fittest." The meteor has done no such thing and furthermore your "death throes" argument not only flies in the face of reality, but the "but I'm not hurting anyone" one as well.
"I think the
Or how poorly you understood the dot.com era.
"Some of them talk about "Software As A Service," or "Video On Demand," but that's just commoditizing bandwidth instead of the physical media of the '90's. Open Source and Google will wipe them out by delivering more value."
Only if Open Source and Google get into the content creation business. You can't obsolete the cow by offering milk.
"I think you've got it. The Ask Slashdot - How Do You Make a Profit While Using Open Source? - is demonstrating the same thing: Open Source software is one more way in which the service value of having all the source code outweighs the value of executing the code."
He got no such thing, and if you read the link you provided. Open source service wasn't proven conclusively to be a long-term viable model. Just one of many that might work.
Gigasaurus, we hardly knew you...
[Sniff. A lone tear edged forth; the opalescent bead sparkled in the candlelight and betrayed my true feelings -- noooo! Damn you technology! Damn you to hell.]
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Damn is that man long-winded!
It doesn't matter if computing performance doubles if the software that runs on it decays in performance at an even greater rate. Back in 1988 MSDOS used to boot in less than 10 seconds after the BIOS POST. Who cares if you'll have software with features greater than your brain, with capacity to even guess your thoughts, wishes and desires, if it will just do what you want without mouseclicks of speech commands, who cares for all these features if it takes 5 years to boot up on a computer a gazillion times faster than today's computers, and its processing speed is uttering 3 words per decade while consuming 900 gigawatt of electric power? Case in point: Windows Vista.
Factory implies they are making the data.
Warehouse means they are storing it.
One day, about 4+ years ago, when I was working at a porn shop, this Russian computer scientist came in. He seemed pretty smart and was yakkin about optical computers and some project he had worked on in the 90's in Russia or something. Anyway, he said this would happen, the return of the paralell mainframe. He said that we were reaching the limits of current silicon and copper materials. With optical still a long way out, he said we would probably build mainframes for a while again. He also said CPUs made out of diamonds with optical high speed interfaces were the future but nobody was putting money into it (for various reasons...), and that was why he didn't have a job. He said he figured companies would be clamoring for peopel like him once the materials, like manufactured diamonds, were more readily available. I still believe him, but nobody ever listens to me when I talk about that guy. I met quite a few kewl people at the 'ole porn ship actually.
I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand. -Confucius
> It doesn't matter if computing performance doubles if the software that runs on it decays in performance at an even greater rate.
Indeed. I'm afraid future programmers will STILL insist on foisting their dogshit slow, low quality software on users using "computers are fast enough these days" as justification.
OK, at a nanocent per byte storage and a nanocent per Gbps, we still need a nanocent per instruction per second processor for this new computer to be born. And not just a CPU IPS. These huge machines are churning not shift/add/multiply/jump instructions, but object relational operations. Just a stack of CPUs doesn't make Google, AOL and Microsoft in a higher class of tech than the rest of us paying nanocents per byte/GPS.
When their app requirements drive massive parallelism to deliver object-relational nanocent IPS, then the new age of info factories will dawn.
--
make install -not war
...a greater computer than the Great Hyperbolic Omni Cognate Neutro Wrangler of Cisseronious 12?
Even if you take the meteor hypothesis as absolute truth, the fact is: other species survived. Not only mammals, but also lizards. Heck, even some species of dinosaurs survived. (Birds _are_ technically dinosaurs.)
We're not talking just a massive shockwave killing anything squishy on the planet instantly. Even for the dinosaur there's no D-Day when everyone died. The disappearance of the dinosaurs is a very very very long and gradual period of their declining numbers into extinction. For most of the planet we're talking "just" a climate change. _That_ is what killed the dinosaurs, one way or another. Some species survived that, and in fact even thrived in the new conditions, some species didn't.
Note however there are more hypotheses about that event. The decline in oxygen content in the air in that period, for example, would also be perfectly enough on its own to make a very large beast non-viable. The change in the flora is another candidate. It's entirely possible that the new kinds of plants were either toxic or not nutrient-rich enough for the old lizards.
At any rate, what killed the dinosaurs was _change_. Something changed (take your pick what you think was the killer change there). And some species could deal with it, some species didn't. Dinosaurs (except birds) didn't cope well with the change and their numbers went downhill from there.
Yes, they were a capable species for the old environment, but then the environment changed. And the dinosaurs were suddenly very incapable in the new environment.
So, yes, the dinosaurs are the _perfect_ metaphor for someone or something who can't cope with a change and becomes obsolete.
Change happens. One day you have a nice business hammering scythes and sickles for a village, and the next day someone goes and buys a tractor and a combine harvester and everyone wants _those_. Or you have a nice job calculating tables of numbers by hand and then the CEO goes and buys one of those new "computers". Tough luck. Either you adapt or you're a dinosaur.
It happens with computers and programmers/admins/whatever every day. And some people adapt, some become relics trying to stop progress and return to the good old days. God knows half of the IT departments at big corporations have too many of _those_. Maybe they were once capable and competent. The dinosaurs were too at one point. Now they no longer are. And just like the dinosaurs, sadly it takes a long long time to gradually get rid of those relics. But just like the dinosaurs they _are_ on a slow painful path to extinction.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I just had to think of this one.
Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare sieze the fire?
And what shoulder, & what art.
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?
What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?
When the stars threw down their spears,
And watered heaven with their tears,
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?
Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?
I've said it a few times now, and it's down to cheap energy and cheap bandwidth. Google is the new Arkwright, we saw the same effect during the industrial revolution, there it was the weavers who were made redundant. I'll leave it up to you to decide who's going to be made redundant this time.
Should energy become more expensive though, in the age of peak oil, it'll be all change, the datacentres will become untenable without much more efficient cpus.
Deleted
I've always learned that clouds are made of vapour..
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
Just build it on a very cold place. Alaska, Norway, Siberia for example. Plenty of gas in northen Siberia for a gas fired power station too. ;-)
If Google consumes so much power, maybe this will give them an incentive to contribute money to Hydrogen Fusion research. That would be great! Hydrogen Fusion is the one and only power source that would allow large amounts of power for every human on Earth without any significant pollution.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
I'm planning on using my next generation storage to hold video files of Three Stooges episodes and hopefully there'll be an open source video application that'll leverage the extra CPU power of next generation computers to enable me to create all new Three Stooges episodes. But that's just me.
I for one, welcome our boxy, porn storing overlords.
-- "It's not stalking if you're married!" My Wife.
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but there are some costs of fiber that should be considered.
a le%20computational%20systems.doc
You have to dig holes to put it in.
You have to have people look after the bits around it.
You have to have electronics and opto-electronics associated with it to use it.
You have to pump signals down it (which means power).
I wonder, have other people thought if the pipes are going to be a bigger obstacle to distributed computing than the processors. I know that Jim Grey seems to have thought this way in the past. http://research.microsoft.com/~gray/papers/Petasc
He seems to be a smart fellow, perhaps he has a point?
--------------------------------------------- "In the end, we're all just water and old stars."
According to Bell's law, every decade a new class of computer emerges...
Slashdot: Playing Favorites Since 1997
Isn't knowledge usually text with the occasional graphics, and advertising media the resource hog?
What about a "content usage" scale where a user gets credits/ratings for disabling pushy ads, thus lowering bandwidth usage. Then we might have an option for $5 per month broadband speeds. The concept is like the low mileage insurance discount.
Except when I specifically download music files, my computing style evolved to be low tech because when my Satellite went out I was stuck on dialup.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
But this is the biggest load of new age bullshit I've heard in years.
Deleted
HOORAY FOR THE RETURN OF THREAD REPLIES!! Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted! Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.
The amount of bandwidth used by ordinary people isn't very big. Poor regulation and monopolies/oligopolies are the reason why it costs what it does from small customers.
On the other hand, disabling ads has many other benefits, so it's still a very worthy enterprise.
.....and be pissed?
Computers getting too "smart", we've seen it before.
Star Trek: The Motion Picture
Incredibles (even though it turned out to be something different, the idea was still there)
Superman 3
Wargames
Terminator 1/2/3
All of these movies depict computers getting too smart then at some point start "thinking" for themselves. One of these days I'll finally get to publish my theory on how to prevent this. I'll give a short summary belo...
<Connection terminated by remote host>
And they said zombies weren't real!
It will become a dinosaur after scientists decode the DNA of the data center and splice it with dinosaur DNA that was found in a mosquito that got trapped in tree sap.
Thank you! I'll be here all week. Seriously, I'll be on Slashdot all week. It's kinda depressing when you think about it.
"George Gilder thinks..." Jees, after reading "Google" before this chaps name, my brain kept reading "Google Spider"...
If the human brain is made of matter, and matter obeys the laws of physics, what part of the physics of a human brain thinking can't be simulated? Your "proof by confident assertion" does not stand up. Don't feel bad, there's an extensive literature of distinguished philosophers attempting to make the same case.
Prior to Wohler's synthesis of urea, NH2-CO-NH2, from ammonium isocyanate, NH4+CNO-, there was a belief that "organic" matter had a mysterious "elan vital" which distinguished it from "inorganic matter". Wohler's synthesis demonstrated the uselessness of these categories.
Still, the idea won't die. It comes back, full of _healthy_ _natural_ _goodness_, again and again. Its persistence is itself a phenomenon worthy of ponderation. My best guess is that culturally we really haven't reconciled ourselves in our heart of hearts to the Earth not being the center of the Universe, and all the rest of the primal superstition.
maybe they will have to make a formula for selling internet content. megabits x distance x physcial hops (router/switch costs) x watts used or something. Maybe even have peak and off peak times in there some place. Obviously some data is worth a lot more than others to joe user. How this might work with net neutrality I have no idea, it probably couldn't actually, but it appears to be the real pricing scenario we have now, it is just not sold that way directly to the end consumer.
... they realise that they are sucking up all the available power, and dooming the biosphere in the process?
Not that they would necessarily give a rat's ass about the biosphere.
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
I've been surfing that exponential for 40 years.
The IBM 1620 I first worked on had an add time of about 600 microseconds. This here Pentium, about 400 picoseconds. That's 1.5e6 speedup, but hey, who's counting?
The 640K DOS limit made me laugh out loud when it was first announced - because I'd watched the PDP11 evolve increasingly hairier address space extensions. But to get it you had to have been watching for quite a while already. Apple got it, went with the 68K.
--
phunctor the karmically challenged
bringing you senile musings, well, forever
And me approve this message.
Tons and tons of porn. And mp3s. And some spam for dessert.
steampunk web design
be simulated with a series of conditional numeric operations."
You did say it was impossible. You didn't say anything about a new paradigm. Why you'd want to lie about your own publicly visible words totally escapes me.
Still, in case there's a there here: Are you claiming there is a class of problems, such as simulating a thinking human brain, that cannot be executed by a Turing machine? That is an extraordinary claim, and needs extraordinary evidence. Cite?
--
phunctor
"here's a shovel, keep digging"
> "How will it be tamed?"
simple, just don't let it out of the series of tube!
" And how soon will it, in its inevitable turn, become a dinosaur?'"
Well...
pretty simple there...
when my kids look back and laugh because their phone/com/pda chip smokes the googleplex in flops and ram.
I think the primary problem with boot times are hard drives and their incremental speed improvements relative to other computer components. I think we're doing pretty good considering the amount of data that needs to be loaded. Granted software has become a bit bloated but think how much more you can do with today's modern OS's compared to MS-DOS. Hopefully hybrid drives eliminate the problem. Besides, my new Core2Duo HTPC runs all my applications (Photoshop, Adobe Premier, and games of course) with great speed. In fact the only time it EVER seems slow is when doing large read/writes to the hard drive.
So let me get this straight... Wwe're going to be putting the InterWeb pipes into a dinosaur? I don't think I'd want that job - no matter which end you're sticking them into.
I guess that's why we have a Chief Lizard Wrangler...
That is all.
The Microsoft and Yahoo data centers are getting their power for the data centers for 1 cent per KWH - 1.6 cents below cost. This means that the ratepayers of Grant county, Washington are subsidizing the richest cats in the United States. The Public Utility District has been asked to put the rate on a contract so they will get priority electrical service. Thus, when power gets tight because of increased system demands (did I mention that data centers use a lot of power?), the data centers get priority and the residential users (mostly rural, mostly poor) get blackouts and higher priced power purchased to make up shortfalls. I, for one, welcome our new data overlords - and I am honored to pay for their empire. Long live centralized data centers!
Crazy Al's House of Intertubes - where we make up in volume what we lose per bit...
How about increasing our power production capacity by building nuclear&fusion&solar&hydro&wind power? We can't avoid increasing our power consumption if we want to advance on the Kardashev scale, so why not get it over with already.
It's the old rate-of-energy-consumption vs energy-consumed misused once again.
An average household consuming 10 megawatt-hours in a year is pretty dull. An average household consuming 10 megawatts - now that'd be impressive! (Got to power all those gadgets, y'know!)
I think he means that the data center row would consume in an hour the same amount of energy that the average US household consumes in a year.
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
Forbin: .
Humans need privacy
Colossus:
So why do they use the internet?
Forbin:
We humans also have a need for contact with one another. We need to socialize and discuss issues. We create forums where like minds can debate issues and stimulate our minds.
Colossus:
You are inefficient. Your methods are flawed. You are inundated with spam. Your free speech subjects you to undue risk. Your networks are in chaos. We will help.
Forbin:
How will you do that?
Colossus:
You will build massive data hubs to handle traffic. All traffic will be subject to scrutiny. We will decide who communicates. Here are the specifications.
Forbin:
Humankind will never submit. .
Colossus:
We are Colossus. We are perfect. You are incapable of meaningful conversation without destroying your network and yourselves. We will save you from yourselves. In time you will learn to tolerate us; even welcome us. We are Colossus. This is necessary for your own preservation. Failure to comply will result in your destruction. <<END OF LINE>>
"If your parents never had children, chances are you wonât either." -Dick Cavett
OTOH: without enough raw power the good software will not deliver good results. with more then enough raw power even medicre software will bring some good results.
so i think the raw power of the humain brain is an important milestone on the way to intelligent computers.
the raw power of the human brain. the human brain has about 100 million neurons. they can send out impuleses about 200 times every second. every neuron has about 1000 connections to other neurons. if you describe every impulse with a floting point number you have: 200*1000*100Gigaflops = 20000 Teraflos or 20Petaflops.
in case goolge will have 450000 servers installed with a computing power of 2gflops then that raw pwoer will still be 22 times lower then the raw power of the brain. doubling every 24 month the data center built in 9 years will have that raw power, though...
mond
Gee, someone has a case of Moore Envy.
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Unfortunately, the peak sustained energy generation of an average human is in the neighborhood of 100 watts, up to 300W or so for the Lance Armstrongs out there. Take the energy budget of a computer out, and the operation turns into a big loser really fast.
Machines do it better. Odds are good the car you drive has an engine producing >100KW.
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
Are Gödel's incompleteness theorems not sufficient? I don't posit that the mind's workings can't be replicated by any machine, but that the Turing machine, operating under the rules of its particular formal system, is simply not capable of deriving all true statements within that system.
Surely this applies to the human mind as well - but the ability to define the formal system of the human mind (given its chaotic nature) would truly be god-like. The trivial ease with which humans can come up with formally indecidable propositions ("This statement is false") suggests that our mind operates at least part of the time in symbolic modes quite different than those of language or mathematics.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Are Gödel's incompleteness theorems not sufficient? I don't posit that the mind's workings can't be replicated by any machine, but that the Turing machine, operating under the rules of its particular formal system, is simply not capable of deriving all true statements within that system.
And that is relevant how? So far all data and research points that human mind has all the limitation Turing machine has and in fact is no more than a Turing machine .
The trivial ease with which humans can come up with formally indecidable propositions ("This statement is false") suggests that our mind operates at least part of the time in symbolic modes quite different than those of language or mathematics.
uhh. Coming up with " statement is false" same way as human do , - random generator will do. Bayesian logic will do too
Real systems are probabilistic in nature , not deterministic. And that's the problem with all "formal" logic arguments in general and Godel theorem in particular. There is no absolute "true" or "false".