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Iraq Study Group Reaches Concensus

reporter writes to point us to a story in the Washington Post reporting that the Iraq Study Group has reached consensus and will issue its 100-page report on December 6: 'The Iraq Study Group, which wrapped up eight months of deliberations yesterday, has reached a consensus and will call for a major withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq, shifting the U.S. role from combat to support and advising, according to a source familiar with the deliberations.' The Post mentions that first word of the panel's conclusions came from the New York Times yesterday. The Times points out that it is not clear how many U.S. troops would come home; some brigades might be withdrawn to Iraqi bases out of the line of fire from which they could provide protection for remaining U.S. operations.

86 of 621 comments (clear)

  1. The Reverse Vietnam by krell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "shifting the U.S. role from combat to support and advising"

    That's how we got into Vietnam.

    --
    Where were you when the voynix came?
    1. Re:The Reverse Vietnam by xoyoyo · · Score: 4, Funny

      You've spotted the Chimp's cunning plan. If this thing goes like Vietnam in reverse then the step after "military advisors" is handing it over to the French.

  2. The Middle East is the new Southeast Asia by hoy74 · · Score: 2, Funny

    There are no winners. Only losers. No Correct solution to the problem. Personally I wish we (the US and its allies) would formulate a common long term plan (good or bad) and just stick to it.

    1. Re:The Middle East is the new Southeast Asia by krell · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Personally I wish we (the US and its allies) would formulate a common long term plan (good or bad) and just stick to it."

      Personally, I'd rather they not stick to any bad plan. Why would anyone possibly want that? What has "sticking to the same plan no matter what" brought us for the lasdt 3 or so years?

      --
      Where were you when the voynix came?
  3. Iraqi's are slow by otacon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Didn't most of the U.S. (government aside) reach this consensus in like 2003?

    --
    In a world of acronyms, the words are the real victims.
  4. Shhhhhhh by AoT · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't tell anyone we can't win, we Americans hate the truth.

    1. Re:Shhhhhhh by AoT · · Score: 5, Funny

      Never mind that it's technically impossible for them to lose,

      Hmmm, never thought of that. I guess since we don't have any goals in Iraq then it's impossible to fail at those goals, ergo we cannot lose.

      Good god man, you're a genius.

      Call the white house.

    2. Re:Shhhhhhh by syphax · · Score: 4, Insightful


      There's something in the American psyche these days that demands they leave every job half done.

      That's convenient.

      There is/was something in the American Administration that demanded that it botch every single aspect of Iraq war planning, from the general idea (Al's a threat! Let's attack Iggy!), to the lack of a plan to keep the peace (as the Shinseki episode so cleary demonstrates).

      It may be hard for you to understand, but some people oppose the war, and did so from before the start, because it was a bad idea, poorly implemented.

      --
      Simple Unexpected Concrete Credible Emotional Stories
    3. Re:Shhhhhhh by replicant108 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They've been calling the war a "quagmire" since, what, week 2?

      The fact that this "war" was unwinnable was obvious to the majority of the world's population before it even started.

    4. Re:Shhhhhhh by AoT · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Try ignoring the media and talking to your soldiers some time if you want a realistic picture of how things are going in Iraq.

      Sure, I'll run right over there and ask them. Or maybe I'll check our some picture they can no longer send. Oh, wait I know I'll ask someone who is essentially *ordered* to have a positive outlook how things are going.

      Maybe you need to go ask an Iraqi how things are going.

    5. Re:Shhhhhhh by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      That was a joke, right?

      Because you'd have to be off your meds to REALLY believe something THAT silly...

    6. Re:Shhhhhhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Try ignoring the media and talking to your soldiers some time if you want an unrealistically optimistic picture of how things are going in Iraq.
      There, fixed it for ya.

      Not that I trust the media either, but asking soldiers? Here, let me tell you in advance how it's going to play out:

      "You mean I just spent the last X months (years) of my life away from my family in this god forsaken dust bowl getting shot at, not knowing when the next IED is going to go off, seeing my buddies get killed, maimed or shell shocked, all for nothing?"

      Nobody wants to think they've endured all that pointlessly. So they'll continue to cling to the notion that this fight can be won, or that civil war can be averted. Otherwise, their sacrifice is meaningless - and that is a thought too hard to bear. To ask a soldier is to get the answer that victory is attainable, because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

      (Note: The above is not an endorsement of either the media coverage, or the opinions of any political party. I think they have their own biases and agendas too.)
    7. Re:Shhhhhhh by Milton+Waddams · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I suppose success or victory is a subjective term. We need to know the motivations for invading Iraq, then we can know if and how the US operations in Iraq will succeed. If it was to remove Saddam, the US have succeeded. If it was to find WMD, they failed because there were no WMD to find in the first place. If it was to stabilize the middle east and introduce democracy into Iraq, they've failed and will never succeed. If it was to get their hands on the oil, they've succeeded.

    8. Re:Shhhhhhh by daem0n1x · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I live in that tiny little place caleed "the rest of the World", and I can guarantee you this war was considered a disgrace ever since your president started talking about it. Face it, nobody bought Bush's crap outside of the US, in spite of the great effort from our media corporate machine to convince us otherwise.

      Only some right-wing politicians (and Blair, the poodle) gave their approval, but they would suck the American President's dick any time, no matter who he is or what party he belongs to.

    9. Re:Shhhhhhh by ahillen · · Score: 2, Informative

      That was a joke, right?

      Because you'd have to be off your meds to REALLY believe something THAT silly...


      No, actually he is quite correct. A lot of people believed before the war even started that the war was a bad idea, based on dubious "facts" and had the potential to produce more chaos then it would solve problems - just like it turned out to be the case. Sorry for you if you still can't see that.

    10. Re:Shhhhhhh by clickclickdrone · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd say it was true. heck, Bush snr even said it - it's in his Biography that he counciled his son against it.
      Some nations need strong, nay extreme leadership to keep them together because they're so volatile. Saddam was a nasty piece of work but he was at least reasonably predictable. As one Iraqi noted in an interview, at least under Saddam he knew if he did x, y or z he'd get tortured and maybe killed. Now he fears that just for going down the shops.
      It's a huge mistake to assume everyone in the world feels and thinks like we do. They do not and htings that might seem trivial to us are big deals for them and vice versa. Sometimes these people need someone who is a bit of a psycho to keep a lid on things and we are now seeing in Iraq what happens when rule with a rod of iron is taken away. Something similar happened in Yugoslavia, strong domineering leader dies, everything goes to crap and people who apparantly got on with each were suddenly at each others throats.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    11. Re:Shhhhhhh by clickclickdrone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think he meant unwinnable as in not able to beat their armies, he meant in terms of what we're seeing right now - total loss of control of what was left after occupation.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    12. Re:Shhhhhhh by CmdrGravy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How do you mean "take on" ? There was no doubt that you could beat the Iraqi army, the puzzle was what exactly you intended to do afterwards.

      We thought you had that worked out, we thought there was a plan. Obviously there wasn't.

    13. Re:Shhhhhhh by MECC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Shi'as and Sunnis have been in a violent, often bloody, conflict since the death of Mohamed. Iraq has a sizable population of both.

      Whoever thought that deposing a government in such a situation was ever winnable were the insane parties.

      We seem to have no problem wining battles whatsoever. Making Iraq a safe place to live - the task we have taken on - that's a whole different ballgame.

      --
      "We are all geniuses when we dream"
      - E.M. Cioran
    14. Re:Shhhhhhh by Johnny5000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Try ignoring the media and talking to your soldiers some time if you want a realistic picture of how things are going in Iraq.

      I admit I've only talked to a few soldiers about it, but the 'realistic picture' they painted was that Iraq is a complete mess, marked by gross incompetence in managing the war, and cover-ups in hiding that incompetence.

      Like I said though, that was only a few soldiers opinions, so it might not be representative of what's going on all over the place. However, hearing it from them made it sound a lot worse than even the media has been portraying it.

      --
      The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
    15. Re:Shhhhhhh by mstahl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What the grandparent post was saying, but I guess a typo got in the way of the message coming across, is that at least in America it's *really* difficult to get objective information about how the war in Iraq is going. Each news source might have a different idea about it, might be talking to different officials that, yes, are ordered to stay on message, or might have ulteriour motives that prevent it from delivering unbiased information. In addition, yes, soldiers and media are extremely limited in what photographs they're permitted to send back home.



      Where do you get this shit from?


      Why do you think it is that all the *retired* generals in the US army seem critical of the war in Iraq? Once they're retired they're no longer under orders to stay on message, and the message that the administration has chosen is that everything's under control. It isn't, and I think most people accept that there's little possibility of it getting under control the way things are going now. I've talked to soldiers, I've read blogs, I've done enough research to satisfy myself that the "quagmire" of Iraq has turned into a "shitstorm" and it's time to get out.

    16. Re:Shhhhhhh by Aceticon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I suspect I know more than you realise. I'm quite happy to note that the vast majority of insurgent fighting is limited to a very defined region and that large swathes of Iraq are pretty peaceful now with people getting on with their daily jobs etc.


      It would actually be physically impossible for the majority of the geografical area of Iraq to be seeing insurgent fighting - it's one big country: plenty of space. I reckon in most of it, there are only element of one side, or the other side or maybe only unallied people.

      The places where most people are located (say Bagdahd, Bashra) are the places where insurgent fighting occurs and hundreds of people are killed every week (sometimes daily).

      Now, if you really, really want to keep patting yourself in the back and keep believing that the US/UK coalition has done a great job there, i suggest you concentrate on the Kurdish only areas: last i heard there no real insurgent movements there.

      Please do not allow me to stand in they way of your self-delusional feeling of success by way of selective blindness.
    17. Re:Shhhhhhh by hachete · · Score: 4, Informative

      People like Richard Perle seem to think that Iraq is an unfolding disaster:

      http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/1 2/neocons200612

      The neo-cons - the architects of the ideology if not the actual war - are cutting loose like no one's business. They seem to think the war is going badly, and they're blaming the chimp.

      And even if you don't believe the figure of 100,000 people fleeing Iraq every month, that it mught be 50,000, or even less, it's still people going gone get. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6158847.stm

      Dead bodies found:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6160117.stm

      more killed. every day, yet more.

      If this is victory

      --
      Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
    18. Re:Shhhhhhh by daem0n1x · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nice spin. You got the touch. Assuming your numbers are right,just a few questions:

      1. The invasion saved 180.000 people, but killed 500.000. I think this gives US a pretty negative balance, no?
      2. How many of them were killed when Saddam was the US' "good boy"?
      3. How many of them were murdered by order of the USA?
      4. How many of them were murdered using American weapons that your past governments gladily supplied Saddam with?
      5. How many of them were killed in the Iraq-Iran war, caused by Saddam with great incentive from the US? Are you also including the 1 million Iranis killed in that war?
      6. How many of them died as a consequence of depleted uranium used by the US in Gulf War I?
      7. How many of them died from starvation or lack of medicine because of the inhuman sanctions imposed after Gulf War I? How much pain have those sanctions caused to Saddam or any of his thugs? None, I believe.
    19. Re:Shhhhhhh by dasunt · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Not that I trust the media either, but asking soldiers? Here, let me tell you in advance how it's going to play out:

      "You mean I just spent the last X months (years) of my life away from my family in this god forsaken dust bowl getting shot at, not knowing when the next IED is going to go off, seeing my buddies get killed, maimed or shell shocked, all for nothing?"

      Nobody wants to think they've endured all that pointlessly. So they'll continue to cling to the notion that this fight can be won, or that civil war can be averted. Otherwise, their sacrifice is meaningless - and that is a thought too hard to bear. To ask a soldier is to get the answer that victory is attainable, because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

      I've known some soldiers who think that Iraq is fixable.

      I've known some soldiers who think that that Iraq is beyond fixing. (This is putting it mildly in some cases. One of the soldiers I know is in the base nicknamed 'mortaritaville' due to the frequent mortar attacks. I think he considers shit-flinging chimps as being more civilized than the Iraqis.)

      Soldiers are humans too. They don't all think alike. They can have different opinions on the Iraq war, and some of those opinions are rather negative.

    20. Re:Shhhhhhh by jkauzlar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Whoa... you've extrapolated quite a bit from that remark. 'The Truth' was not what GWB told Americans when explaining why we needed to go to war. You talk about war protestors wanting to live in a totalitarian gov't. Those in protest of the war are thinking the same thing about war proponents. GWB actively trying to break down the balance of powers in our gov't, torturing, spying on americans, without trying to get consent from those he's trying to protect and represent. There's more than a small scent of totalitarianism in that.

      And since these arguments have been repeated ad nauseum, I'll just say screw you, go to Iraq and get killed since you believe there's no other option. Meanwhile, those against the war will try to divert our nation's resources back from the government war contracters and into things that make a difference, like education, so boneheads like you can learn to see the difference between propaganda and real national defense.

      BTW, have you thought about writing dialogue for action movies?

      "Listen up. There are bad mother fuckers out there who want to kill you. Sometimes you have to go kill them first. Bitch and whine about peace and shit like that but it takes two for peace to work and the other guys aren't playing."
      Can't you just picture Bruce Willis, the experienced staff seargent in a Vietnam setting, ripping into the good-intentioned, but hot-headed Lieutenant Leonardo DiCaprio when the young recruit starts having existential doubts?
  5. Concensus. Opposite of a census? by aitsu · · Score: 2, Funny
    In light of the dreadful mortality rate in that country, I guess it wouldn't be so absurd if the word actually existed.

  6. You break it you buy it. by Guerilla*+Napalm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The US and their Allies went into Iraq, without any proof. They messed up the country (and profited from it) now they have to sort it out.

    1. Re: You break it you buy it. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > The US and their Allies went into Iraq, without any proof. They messed up the country (and profited from it) now they have to sort it out.

      I like that principle, but what do you do when you can' fix what you broke?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:You break it you buy it. by bahwi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "By way, profited HOW? This is costing us, not making us money. The Oil for Food fiasco was profit motivated, not the deposizing of Saddam."

      You mean, profited WHO. You misspelled who. I mean, c'mon, $25 and up hammers? I'm a more well informed buyer than the whole of the US Gov't? Are you kidding me? No, it didn't make the US any money, but tanks, armor, hammers, and other stuff, are not free. And in a no-bid situation, you're just throwing money away.

      Who knows, Halliburton may have been the best one to go with, but since they had no incentive to cut any prices, as well as the other suppliers for this whole thing, because of the no-bid, there was no reason to cut prices.

    3. Re:You break it you buy it. by LordEd · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What more would you need?
      All those things you listed are nasty and probably reasons for invasion, but none of those were the STATED reason for invasion. What we need are those lovely Weapons of Mass Destruction that we were promised. I think they were supposed to be in some moving trucks or something like that.
      profited HOW?
      Well, it isn't the country that profited, but i'm sure there's a few weapons companies that made some money on the x billion / day being spent.
    4. Re:You break it you buy it. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is costing us, not making us money.

      Yes, this is costing us, the taxpayer money. Currently to the tune of over $300 billion.

      That money didn't just vanish you know (though certainly a lot of it is unaccounted for).

      It largely has gone to the defense contractors, the boeings and halliburtons and so on and so forth. We are spending that money, not shoveling it into a furnace to fuel a war machine. The shoveling is metaphorical. The profit for the defense industry is very very literal.

      So yeah. You are losing a shit-load of money. Wealthy corporations are making a shit-load of money. Your money.

      Get it now?

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    5. Re: You break it you buy it. by crabpeople · · Score: 2, Interesting
      "I like that principle, but what do you do when you can'T fix what you broke?"

      Well from what I've seen, it looks like you suffer and then die.

      Maybe next time america won't be so hasty to take other peoples land. The best you can hope for here is a long bloody lesson in not randomly fucking people. Responsibility isn't always a pretty thing to learn.

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
  7. In other words by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Informative
    what the study group is recommending is "cut and run" or possibly, "cut and walk".


    Not that it really matters since Bush is already planning to ignore what the study group says. He'll just continue to "Stay the course".

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:In other words by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      what the study group is recommending is "cut and run" or possibly, "cut and walk".

      Not that it really matters since Bush is already planning to ignore what the study group says. He'll just continue to "Stay the course".


      You are correct. Bush will ignore what the panel recommends and force the next president to do it.

      I considered myself to be pretty much a "yellow dog Republican" prior to this election. For you non-USAers, the short explanation of this term means that you would vote for anyone, even a yellow dog, as long as they run under a particular party's banner. I have to give the Republicans credit that whoever invented the "cut and run" statement was able with 3 words to stop all rational discussion of the issue by turning it into a debate on cowardness. All anyone has to do is say "cut and run" and rational debate is over because it's now been shifted into an emotional issue. What finally did it for me and made me vote Democrat a few weeks ago was that I concluded that Henry Kissinger is right that Iraq is not winnable in a conventional sense. More troops won't shore up the porous borders around Iraq that allow the non-stop flow of weapons that are fueling the Shiite-Sunni civil war. The Republicans try to fear monger that the second we leave, Al Queda will come in, but I finally concluded that we aren't stopping Al Queda right now anyway, so why are we still there?

      Unfortunately I didn't realize this until after the 2004 elections where I foolishly voted for Bush, but I finally figured out last year exactly why he does what he does. There is a small subset of people who see the world in black and white. He is one of those people. Most people don't see the world in black and white, so they don't know what it is like to deal with these people because there aren't a lot of them. People who see the world in black and white don't agonize over any decisions. They make their minds up very quickly and rarely change them. If they do change them, they go completely to the other side. Ever heard of former smokers who now compaign non-stop to stop everyone, everywhere from smoking? That's kind of how these people are when they change their minds. The biggest problem with these people who see everything in black and white is that they are completely unable to see the viewpoint of anyone who disagrees with them. It's because to them, everything is crystal clear and it's so clear that if you don't see it that way, you must be crazy. Any dissenting words are just "crazy talk" and their minds are completely closed. This is why Bush says things like "If you aren't with us, you're against us." He sees everything in black and white. Once Chaney and Rumsfield and a few others convinced him that Iraq had to be invaded, it was game over. He'll never back down because to him, it's all crystal clear that he was right to go to Iraq and to leave is wrong. I'm amazed that more people don't understand this about Bush. Once you grasp how he sees the world, it's not difficult to understand what he'll do. It explains why he refuses to talk to North Korea except in those bogus "6 party talks". He's made up his mind that the 6 party talks are the only way to resolve it and he can't conceive of a one-on-one approach because that's "crazy talk". Bush is never going to remove troops from Iraq because to him, the issue is clear cut. He's right, his opponents are wrong, end of story.

    2. Re:In other words by smooth+wombat · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Glad to hear that you've finally seen the light. As a fellow GOPer (registered as such but not necessarily in political agreement) I have long not voted the party line but rather for the person. I even worked for Perot when he ran which I'm sure put me on some GOP hitlist. :)


      As far as Bush and Cheney are concerned, there are numerous blogs, articles and whatnot out there which describe how people like Dennis Feith and other hawks are manipulating things to make the U.S. the sole power in the world. Not just superpower, militarily, but power as in "We'll tell you what to do" power.

      Certainly some of these writings are from conspiracy wackos but others are written by seasoned journalists who document and provide evidence for everything they write. In fact, this article from Asia Times Online, discusses Bush's willingness to ignore both the Study Group recommendations and his avoidance of talking with Syria and Iran.

      Let me put it this way. When I first heard Bush say that Iraq had wmds I knew he was lying. I knew Iraq didn't have all these tons of weapons lying around nor have the capacity to produce any such weapons on a moments notice.

      Which begs the question: if I knew there were no weapons there, how could this administration not have known there were no weapons there? Further, even when the UN inspectors were doing their inspections (contrary to what some people have said never took place), the U.S. was giving them specific sites to inspect because we "know that he [Saddam] has them" yet not one facility ever produced any evidence that banned weapons were there. That should have sent red flags up all over the place so either Bush ignored these warnings and was determined to "stay the course" or he had already made up his mind to invade Iraq before this whole thing started and the case for wmds was simply a front.

      What is really disturbing is that by January or February of 2007, more american lives will have been lost in Iraq than were killed on September 11th. Put another way, Bush, by his actions, will have killed more americans than did Bin Laden. You do remember Bin Laden, don't you? The guy Bush has called irrelevant.

      I will make this prediction. Before Bush leaves office, the vast majority of troops will have been pulled from Iraq so Bush will be able to (again) declare, "Mission Accomplished". It will then be left for the incoming president to figure out a way to extract the remaining troops, under fire no less, and not make it look like a retreat. Thus, the onus of failure will not taint Bush's record for posterity, regardless of the facts.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    3. Re:In other words by catfood · · Score: 2, Informative
      By January or February of 2007, more american lives will have been lost in Iraq than were killed on September 11th.

      Actually, we're almost certainly at that point already.

      3,030 people were killed in the 9/11 attacks, including WTC, Pentagon, and Shanksville. Wikipedia says 2,973. In the ballpark anyway.

      icasualties.org says 2,885 US military personnel have been lost in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

      What people forget is that those who died at the World Trade Center were not all Americans. Conservatively, 10% of those on the scene must have been foreign business people, consultants, workers on H-class visas, foreign student interns, and international visitors. Wikipedia says about 316 were non-Americans.

      So if you're comparing Americans to Americans...

    4. Re:In other words by Nimey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Firstly, I detest Bush and nearly everything he's done since taking office, and I'm not anti-military. But I'll be devil's advocate just for the sake of discussion.

      Say that neocon claims are right, and there would have been a campaign of terror attacks in the US had we not done what we have[1]. There could have been thousands more US civilian deaths[2] and trillions of dollars in damage and economic disruption. Are the lives of a few thousand volunteer soldiers worth that? They knew what they were signing up for. None of them were forced into signing up[3].

      [1] Ignoring the all the terrorists and anti-USA sentiment that the Iraq occupation has created. If the GOP cared about the future, they'd raise taxes and pay down the national debt.

      [2] Also ignoring all the dead Iraqi civilians, 'cause they're just ragheads, right?

      [3] Also ignoring the stop-loss people, but the contract does say Uncle Sam owns their asses for 8 years once they sign.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
  8. Advice on reading The Washington Post by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2, Informative

    When reading The Washington Post, always consider the diametric opposite position from whatever agenda the WaPo pushes.
    Consider http://newsbusters.org/node/6863

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  9. a documentary about the Iraqi civil war.. by Adult+film+producer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Was produced a few years ago by Al-Jazeera, well, technically it's not about Iraq but Lebanon.

    http://fineartfilm.com/index.php?main_page=product _info&products_id=59

    (or watch it on google video)
    http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=war+of+leban on

    There are 15 episodes, about 12 hours long with english subtitles.. so sit back and enjoy how history repeats itself.. the stage moved to the left, a bit, but it's the same story happening all over again. Iraqi society descending into chaos, neighbourhoods dividing along sectarian lines, intervening regional powers, oh and lots of blood.

  10. Re:cutting out too soon? by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "..before we remove a significant fraction of the soldiers from Iraq, we will plan and implement a self-standing, well trained Iraqi police/armed force.."

    Why would Iraqis want to fight for Americans against their own people? If you want them to get serious about running their own country, there's only one way to do so: tell them you're leaving in a few months and then they're on their own.

    "It will also destroy what little credibility the US has left."

    Bush has already destroyed most of America's credibility, and attempting to continue an occupation that's already lost will only destroy the rest. If you wanted to maintain some credibility in the world, you shouldn't have invaded a third-rate country that posed no threat to you, but did have a population who'd be eager to fight against an invader for as long as it took to kick them out.

    So yes, American 'military power' will be a joke after you've been tossed out of both Iraq and Afghanistan by locals with AK-47s, but so what?

  11. My plan for Iraq by RevMike · · Score: 2, Funny

    I've been a hawk since day one, and don't regret that. I do think that the aftermath of the military victory was handled poorly. I think that completely dismissing the Army and police and starting over new was a bad idea, and helped the insurgency get hold.

    That being said, at this point I don't think we have the ability to stop Iraq from descending into civil war. The chaos and widespread murder is unacceptable, and I don't how we can stop it and preserve Iraq as a single entity.

    The RevMike Plan

    Divide Iraq into three regions. Kurdistan in the north, which would include the border areas around Mosul, the northern oil fields, etc. A central/western Sunni Arab area, and a southern/eastern Shiite Arab area, including the southern oil fields. There might be a treaty that says that the governments of all three areas split the oil revenue by some formula.

    The establishment of a Kurdistan is really going to piss off Iran. Good. It will also piss off Turkey. Sucks to be them. Maybe they should have let us invade through the north too, a couple of years ago.

    I'm not as worried about the Shiite dominated area. I think that, in the long run, Arab/Persian tension will keep them from being dominated by Iran. It would be nice to have alternative leadership for the Shiite world.

    As for the Sunni area? They basically become irrelevant, especially since Baghdad will become Shiite. The Saudis will likely step in and offer some sort of support to stabilize this area.

    As part of the deal, anyone who want to move will be given the chance. At the end of it, the two Arab regions should be fairly homogeneous, and the whole religious/ethnic issue will be gone. The Kurd dominated area is already fairly secure, and likely would remain so. The Arabs, Turkmen, and Christians in this are fairly well integrated minorities.

    1. Re:My plan for Iraq by AoT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not as worried about the Shiite dominated area. I think that, in the long run, Arab/Persian tension will keep them from being dominated by Iran. It would be nice to have alternative leadership for the Shiite world.

      You should be worried, of course given your apparent dearth of knowledge about the region it is no surprise you see it that way. But here's the problem: Saudi Arabia also has Shi'a areas. And, surprise, surprise, those area have oil. You separate the Shi'a in Iraq and they get a base of operations to foment resistance to the Saudi regime.

      As for the Sunni area? They basically become irrelevant, especially since Baghdad will become Shiite. The Saudis will likely step in and offer some sort of support to stabilize this area.

      Wow, tacit approval of ethnic cleansing, nice.

      All in all you seem to miss the point, the US in reality has no say on whether Iraq splits or not, there is and will continue to be a civil war which will decide these matters.

  12. Re:cutting out too soon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe (unlikely) the US will admit it screwed up, request a UN mandate, and allow an international peace keeping force to step in and help administer Iraq till it can get back on its feet?

    Only one answer to that: FUCK YOU! You have been arrogant and disgusting with your campaign against those who said invading Iraq was a terrible idea, ruining the career of individuals (those CIA agents who warned there were no WMD in Iraq) or making fun of whole populations (Germans and especially the French), so that nobody wants to help you anymore. Now shut the fuck up or accept publicly you have done a mess, impeach Bush and put him on trial. This is the only way to show you have more than one neuron in your brain that voted twice for the chimp that is in the White House.

  13. Advice on reading fringe pro-bias sites. by krell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "When reading The Washington Post, always consider the diametric opposite position from whatever agenda the WaPo pushes. Consider http://newsbusters.org/node/6863 [newsbusters.org]"

    Reading Newsbusters is as valuable as reading FAIR.org. These so-called "watchdogs" are lapdogs of media that share their own fringe biases, and they bite the media just for not sharing their opinions and political bias.

    --
    Where were you when the voynix came?
  14. Perfect. The French save face too! by krell · · Score: 4, Funny

    " If this thing goes like Vietnam in reverse then the step after "military advisors" is handing it over to the French."

    It's a perfect plan. The French get a lot out of it too: since it is running backwards, the typical French retreat ends up looking like the French charging into victory. "Cheese-vomiting conquest monkeys" indeed!

    --
    Where were you when the voynix came?
  15. News just in from Fox News by pubjames · · Score: 5, Funny

    Speaking from the Whitehouse lawn, President George Bush made a surprise statement today.

    "Today's report from the Iraq Study Group has highlighted something that has been on my mind for sometime - my Iraq strategy has failed. I think the right thing for me to do is to apologise to all those people who, during the build-up to our invasion, warned me both publicly and privately that my strategy was unsound and the basis for it wrong. Members of the U.N. weapons inspectors - Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei, I would like to apologise to you for deliberately undermining you. Jacques Chirac - Jacques, you were right, and I'm sorry that my adminstration went out of their way to mock you. My good friend Tony Blair, who chose to stand by me even when I acted like a bully and knew you had deep reservations about my decisions. To all of you, I hope you accept my sincere apology."

  16. Legality of sources? by jbarr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While I certainly respect and uphold the /. notion of us controlling government instead of government controlling us, I question why media outlets like the New York Times and others continually print "leaked" memos and information without any consequence? The only explanation is that this "leaked" information, much of which is reportedly classified, is intentionally leaked. When is it considered a security breach, and when is it considered propaganda? Every time I hear someone question the legality of this (on talk radio and such), the respondents never actually address the fact that the information was leaked, only commenting about the leaked information. Shouldn't media outlets be accountable to and responsible for what they publish? I am absolutely for protecting freedom of speech and freedom of the press, but those freedoms are not always without consequence.

    --
    My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
    1. Re:Legality of sources? by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that punishing the media for publishing "leaked" information makes it too easy for the government to suppress reports about things they did wrong. Just put a "classified" sticker on the topic and hey, we can prosecute anyone who calls us on it. There are very good reasons to guarantee freedom of speech, one of them is protecting against government's abuse of power to silence critics.

      So if publishing "leaked" information is prosecuted at all, there should be a reservation that makes it punishable only if the court finds that the information is significantly useful for an enemy power.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
  17. Re: cutting out too soon? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > Arguing about whether it was right for the US to invade Iraq is rather academic now - however, if the US quits now, you can expect it to be spun as a huge victory for radical Islam.

    It's already a huge victory for radical Islam and general anti-US sentiment in the Middle East and elsewhere. Staying there for a few more years of killing and dying aren't going to help that in the least.

    > It will also destroy what little credibility the US has left.

    Tell us more about this credibility the US has left.

    > Maybe (unlikely) the US will admit it screwed up, request a UN mandate, and allow an international peace keeping force to step in and help administer Iraq till it can get back on its feet?

    There's not any peace to be kept. The peace-keeping force will be needed after the three major factions have self-organized the new division of power, and only minor skirmishing over local details remains.

    The plots at the bottom of this page give a good feel for how much progress we've made in the past 3-1/2 years. "Stay the course" is just a strategy of trading lives indefinitely in order to avoid admitting to a world-class screw-up.

    How many times in the past 3-1/2 years have we been told that "the next six months will be critical"? How many times have people cheered when an election or a high-profile capture gave the illusion of progress?

    Is there the slightest reason to believe that the next six months, or 3-1/2 years, will be any different?

    Frankly, I think Bush's strategy is to leave the problem for the next President, and then claim in his memoirs that we would have won if his successor hadn't cut and run. The neocons are already taking time out from their clamoring for a similar fuckup in Iran, to figure out who they can blame for the failure of their grandiose vision for Iraq.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  18. Word of advice from old British Empire... by fantomas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Divide Iraq into three regions"

    Word of advice from the British Empire: things get really sticky later on down the line when outsiders draw lines on maps and tell locals how it's going to be.

    1. Re:Word of advice from old British Empire... by misanthrope101 · · Score: 5, Interesting
      You're talking to an audience who is never, ever wrong, and who do not feel that the intractible, insoluble problems faced by every other great power in history apply to them. Every objection to the invasion of Iraq--that Saddam didn't have WMD, that Saddam wasn't involved with Al-Queida, that the invasion would destabilize the region and make terrorism worse--have proven true, and still they think they were right all along.

      Iran wanted Saddam removed because they want a Shia superstate. This little gem of an idea was on the news for about 10 minutes a couple of years ago, when the Pentagon opined that Chalabi was an Iranian double-agent who duped the US with bad intel so Iran could foment a regime change to destabilize the region so the Shia majority could take control. But when the news agencies realized that they were saying that the entire Executive Branch of the US Government had been suckered by selective intelligence into doing the bidding of a known sponsor of terrorism, the story sort of dried up and went away. We're still working for Iran and Israel. Two masters, though with incompatible ends, but both being served by our own Wilsonian idealistic crusade mentality. It's an interesting, if depressing, situation.

  19. Why we are really there. by tjl2015 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I supported the conflict initially, but have since come to realize how foolish this little adventure was. Ultimately, we were duped into believing we could do the impossible. The main problem is that Iraq is an artificial state, with little real unifying history, religion, or any common identity. It was created by the European powers at the end of World War I, following the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. It was created arbitrarily, for the sole convenience of the Western powers, with complete disregard to ethnicity and religion. THAT's the problem with Iraq. This is a problem at the very root of society. You can't drop some troops in there, and expect a vibrant, healthy democracy to just magically spring out of the Euphrates.

    I think occupations can create democracies, by holding a diverse group of people together long enough to develop a common identity. It was done by some European powers, take India for example. The problem is that this sort of colonialism takes a large-scale occupation, much larger than we have now, for a time span of MULTIPLE DECADES. This is economically, strategically, and politically impossible in the modern era.

    In order to hold this unstable country together, you either have to be a brutal dictator like Sadam or act like the freaking Romans. I suspect if every time a US soldier was killed we rounded up and killed 500 random people, the resistance would end quite quickly. However, any nation created this way will only last as long as that threat of force is present.

    Ultimately, I think the people in charge of this whole charade knew this was going to happen all along. In the minds of the neocons who started this whole thing, the people of Iraq are just one piece in a puzzle. You'll notice lately that US troop casualties have been falling while Iraqi casualties have been rising. This is because our troops have been retreating to fewer, larger bases, performing fewer daily patrols, and patrol in more heavily armored convoys. The insurgents have gone for easier targets, Iraqi army members, and mainly, innocent civilians. Sunnis fight Shiia, Shiia fight Sunnis, the Kurds just want out entirely, and everyone wants a piece of the non-uniformly distributed oil resources.

    I think the military is really content to sit back and watch as Iraq destroys itself, while the US troops serve their purpose, guarding the valuable oil pipelines. For the people in charge, as long as the crude is flowing, the whole country might as well just drop dead. Also, the troops presence serves a second important function. By having a large troop presence in the center of the Middle East, the pentagon intends to keep Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and all the major powers in line. While our boys on the ground fight for their lives trying to help the Iraqi people, the people at the top are looking at grand strategic goals.

    And that is why we went there in the first place. Not WMDs, not democracy, not anything else. Our troops are there to stabilize Iraq's oil flow, and to keep the whole region in line, stabilizing the larger oil supply. The Iraqi people are meaningless. Our troops will be behind high walls and thick armor, while the rest of the country degenerates into pure chaos.

    1. Re:Why we are really there. by CmdrGravy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm glad to see that some people are capable of changing their minds, can I ask what made you support the war in the first place ?

    2. Re:Why we are really there. by tjl2015 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What I meant by that is that when the British came into India, India was divided into dozens of tiny, warring states. How do you think a tiny island nation was able to conquer hundreds of millions of people? Simple, divide and conquer. By playing the divided states against each other, they slowly took over the whole subcontinent. Before the British came, there was no real, unified Indian identity. Yes there had been a few earlier governments, like the Guptas and Mughals, but these were EMPIRES, not NATIONS. The central government did little more than collect taxes from local princes/governors, and served only to surpress rebellion or prevent foreign incursion. At the time of the British arrival, India was divided into seperate, completely independent states. People identified with whatever little kingdom they lived in.


      When the British left, there was a unified Indian identity. Sure, there was still the Hindu/Muslim clash, but the country was divided into 3 nations, not 50. This is not some grand endorsement of colonialism, however. The main thing the British did was merely provide stability and modern communication and transport. The same thing could have been done if one of the earlier Indian states acquired foreign technology and conquered its neighbors.

      The lesson of the British in India is that a national identity cannot be created artificially, it can only develop naturally. It took TWO CENTURIES for this to take effect. The British enforced peace, provided a common language (their own, conveniently for them), and built railroads. This allowed people to move about with much greater ease, blurring the divisions between regions and slowly, naturally forming a kind of national identity. Now India is still a very diverse country, and it was only thanks to its early leaders that it was able to hold itself together, but the early leaders of modern India built upon the previous national identity.

      Yes, the British did create unity in India. However, it must be mentioned that they did so purely for their own benefit. They took control of the national economy, and turned what had once been a world-leading, self-sufficient country with a vast manufacturing capability, into a colonial economy focused on providing cheap raw materials for foreign export. It's certainly debatable whether India would have been better off with or without British interference.

      The whole point is that you can create a national identity, but only by a very long-term occupation, brutally surpressing any resistance. It was worth it for the British because they harnessed the entire Indian economy for their benefit. We would not do that in modern times not only because it would be morally reprehensible, but because we would have the entirety of the Muslim world trying to bomb US soil, not just a few pissed-off radicals. (You think things are bad now, imagine if Bush announced tommorrow that all Iraqi oil revenues and tax revenues were being confiscated, that numerous home-grown industries would be prohibited, and that Iraqi citizens would be legally required to buy a whole host of manufactured goods exclusively from US companies.)

      As far as Northern Ireland goes, that's a whole diffent ballgame. The nation of Ireland existed prior to foreign intervention. Also, in the minds of people like the IRA at least, the opposing group and the occupier were one and the same. In India, the British could at least present themselves more as neutral arbitors. In Northern Ireland, the resistors at least saw it as the British, working for the advancement of British citizens, living in North Ireland. It's hard to create a common identity with your neighbor if you view him as a foreign occupier.

    3. Re:Why we are really there. by tjl2015 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Three things. First, I bought into the whole WMD thing. For months prior, the Bush administration had been drumming up the threat, and the media gave them plenty of support. Secondly, Sadam did provide a little indirect support to terrorism. He did offer substantial cash gifts to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. It was inferred that if he was doing that publicly, he was probably working with Al Qaeda covertly. This later turned out not to be true. Sadam's support for terrorism was really little more than a PR move intended to give himself some support among some fundamentalist muslims who might otherwise oppose him.

      Thirdly, and mainly, it was more of a gut-level, emotional thing than a logical thing. Sadam was obviously a total bastard, and the world would be better off with him at the end of a rope. However, there are a lot of people like that in the world. We can't go invading every one of them.

      It was basically like this, "the guys a monster, he's supporting terrorists, and he's trying to get nukes, we have to act now before he gets them."

      That worked out well....That's how the Bush administration sold the war, and I, like most of the US population, fell right for it. They completely glazed over the much more important social/ethnic/religious problems Iraq has, and how difficult any occupation would ultimately be. Also, 9/11 was always portrayed as "this generations Pearl Harbor." After all those lives lost, we got what felt like a small-scale invasion of Afghanistan. It just didn't "feel" like the kind of response the attack required. At that point, I could have probably been lead to support an invasion of just about anybody. Bush saw this feeling in the American populace, and used it to "finish what Daddy started."

      Ultimately, I think we probably picked the wrong country. I don't know if an invasion of Iran would have gone any better, but at least we wouldn't have Ahmoud "the Holocaust never exhisted" Ahmadinejad on the verge of acquiring a nuclear bomb. Now I get the feeling that in a few years we'll find ourselves invading Iran, with our troops already spread thin in Iraq, right as I'm getting out of college and in prime draft age. WONDERFUL, JUST WONDERFUL....

      /rant

    4. Re:Why we are really there. by tjl2015 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Possible, I need to catch up on my early Irish history, so I'll take your word for it. Ultimately, however, in terms of the clash between the two groups, its as much about perceptions as reality. If one group of the population views another as occupiers of what is rightfully their sovereign territory, it is very difficult to form a common social/cultural/political identitiy.

    5. Re:Why we are really there. by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yay propaganda.

      All the information was out there. The UN inspectors said there were no WMDs. Half the people in Bush's cabinet had been saying "We need a friendly Muslim democracy in the Middle East to support our interests" for a decade, long before they'd been in a position to make policy.

      Even if there had been WMDs, it would have been nothing more than a pretext. We see that with North Korea, and it is utterly foolish to invade a country based on what they might do. I mean, did Iraq support the 9/11 Hijackers, give 'em a supply of stealth box cutters? Anthrax? The CIA later admitted that a "gifted high school student" could have made that particular "WMD".

      That regime (which we set up) sucked, but the lesson to be learned there is not to set up crazy dictators in the first place. The bulk of the genocide that we're blaming Saddam for happened after Gulf War I, and because we encouraged groups to rebel against Saddam, to make things easier for us, then abandoned them when we pulled out.

      And are we safer now? Did anyone honestly think invading an Islamic country would make us safer? Apparently so.

      So now we throw more money and lives at it because the people at the top cannot admit to mistakes, and if they keep it going long enough, it'll be someone elses legacy.

      And why? Because the public bought it. They didn't bother to look at the damn facts.

      The question to ask is, are you going to learn anything from this? If you do, you'll be in the minority.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  20. Re:Concensus. Opposite of a census? by AoT · · Score: 2, Funny

    Stupidity on Slashdot brought to you by NeoFascist trolls via generous donations of talking points from the retard right.

    Go team, go!

  21. Re:cutting out too soon? by xoyoyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually the US has a UN mandate to be in Iraq. What it didn't have was a UN mandate to go in in the first place, unless you regard resolution 1441 as sufficient.

    As far as spinning it as a victory for radical Islam: the US's presence is a victory for radical Islamists, providing endless streams of propaganda and recruits. US withdrawal might embolden the jihadists; but the damage has already been done. Withdrawal might also cause the Jihadi's backers to lose interest in them, much as the US lost interest int he mujahedeen after the AFghan war.

  22. It's a Civil war by tentimestwenty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Iraqis may be slow but the problem is that the whole country was used to a dictator and it took someone that strong and tyrannical to overcome the religious and ethnic differences between the people. Take away the order of the dictator and nobody knows what to do or to expect. You'd be moving slowly too if you'd never experienced democracy and lacked the overwhelming government infrastructure required to make it work. All we have now is lawlessness, and no clear roles for people or groups. Naturally all the thugs and zealots are struggling to get whatever power they can and it has turned into a civil war. In my opinion, the Iraqis are not going to pull it together by themselves because 1.) they have no experience 2.) the disruptive forces are much bigger than the calming forces and 3.) there's no help from their neighbours or anyone in the world. The only way to avoid a 100 year civil war is to have the UN go in with 50,000 peace keepers along with a coalition of middle east leaders (honest ones) and work for 5-10 years on setting up a functioning government and infrastructure. The chances of that happening are next to zero. Bush wrecked the country

  23. Arrr matey by krell · · Score: 2, Informative

    "If Iraq has taught anything, the lesson is to keep a weather eye on the sources."

    Aye cap'n, keep a weather-eye out. "The source", the Washington Post, is not near as bad as some claim. Their bullpen of commentators includes strong conservatives as Krauthammer and ol' George Will, and even examples of the rare species known as the moderate (David Broder). The Post also produced a landmark excellent article on the details of Chavez' fascist dictatorship in Venezuela (something a hard-left paper would not do, since the hard-left loves this dictator).

    Hopefully, you aren't one of those who holds up the Washington Times as an example of a better paper.

    --
    Where were you when the voynix came?
  24. Re:cutting out too soon? by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Somehow, I don't see any victory parades... Nor any territory held by them."

    Insurgents don't win by 'holding territory', they win by forcing invaders to cower in their 'Green Zone' because they're too scared to come out and play, until they finally decide it would be a good idea to leave.

    The whole problem in Iraq is that America thought they could win a 21st century war with 20th century tactics.

  25. this should be interesting by misanthrope101 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    After being entertained for years by the notion that to leave Iraq, or pull back, or draw down, or really anything other than what Bush was doing would be "cutting and running" and "emboldening the terrorists," I'm curious to see how Bush pulling troops back will be called something other than cutting and running. My guess is that they'll (they being neoconservatives) declare victory and trumpet Bush's genius, then lament the incompetence of the new Congress in letting Iraq descend into civil war.

    Since we never really had an objective, it would be easy to declare victory no matter the outcome. Disarm Saddam of his WMD? Done--before we even arrived! Regime change? Done. Would've been done sooner, if we hadn't armed and financed him, but let's not dwell on fine points. Pay him back for his support of Al Queida and his role in 9-11? Er, okay, bad example.

    But PR can do anything. All they have to do is say "We won! Bush is a great leader!" and trumpet it over and over and over and over, while acting indignant that anyone would ever suggest that Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservatives bear any responsibility at all for anything bad that happened in Iraq (though we can credit them for every flower that bloomed, it seems) and eventually people will come around. If there is ethnic cleansing and tens or hundreds of thousands killed in internecine war, it's not as if the US population is going to sit down and say, "well hell, our President is responsible for that." People consider themselves and the government they voted for responsible for the noble things they meant to do, not what they did. A school opened and a child got a puppy? That's because of George Bush, God bless him. That kid gets killed later that day by a rocket? Not us, Bub. This isn't new--how many Americans felt responsible for the Khmer Rouge? How many Americans care that American financiers helped Hitler? There won't be a reckoning, because there never is. It's too easy to pat ourselves on the back for our nobler motives, and ignore what our decisions actually resulted in.

  26. Question is... by mauledbydogs · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who, exactly, are they going to support? The current government is a barely functioning coalition of religious factions, several of which have their own private armies. The only thing stopping them going hammer-and-tongs at each other are the US forces.

  27. You should regret it by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I do think that the aftermath of the military victory was handled poorly.

    This is the latest right wing talking point. Don't admit it was a brain dead idea from the beginning, blame the execution. They're trying the same arguments about Viet Nam. It wasn't the intent, it was the execution. It's setting up Rumsfeld to be the patsy and gives the Republican Congress a pass on not doing anything resembling oversight. Where was all this brilliant insight during the build up to the war?

    Divide Iraq into three regions. Kurdistan in the north, which would include the border areas around Mosul, the northern oil fields, etc. A central/western Sunni Arab area, and a southern/eastern Shiite Arab area, including the southern oil fields.

    ROFL! That's almost as good the pre-war planning. You just alienated Turkey with the independent Kurdistan idea and gave the Kurds a nearly infinite supply of money to fund Kurdish separatists with the oil field revenue. You alienated one of our better allies in the region and funded ongoing instability in a formerly stable region. Off to a great start.

    The Saudis will likely step in and offer some sort of support to stabilize this area.

    You got that part right but if you think the Saudi money will go to fund stability you need to put the crack pipe down. The Wahhabis supply most of the really freaky, unstable radicals in the region and there's a good chance the bulk of those funds would end up in the hands of Al-Qaida. Everyone who thinks leaving the Sunnis to depend on the most radial elements of radical Islam for funding please raise their hand.

    'm not as worried about the Shiite dominated area.

    You're not worried about setting up an Islamic regime run by a radical strong man with ties to Hezbollah? Now I know you're high.

    You are right that there's no avoiding a civil war at this point, mainly because it's been going on the last year and half. And you're right that we're not going to fix what's broken with the exercise of military power. Pull our troops back to over the horizon bases...an idea which John Kerry suggested and Bush poo-poo'd. Situate those bases so our guys can help control traffic across the Saudi and Iranian borders. Not that leaving Syria and Jordan borders unguarded is a bright spot, but you have less than 100K troops to work with and that's all you can do. Turn over management of our continued presence to the special forces generals instead of regular Army, which was another huge mistake that tends to get glossed over. But when you have so many screw ups to pick from, it's easy to miss one or two.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  28. The supreme international crime by replicant108 · · Score: 2, Informative

    If there is ethnic cleansing and tens or hundreds of thousands killed in internecine war, it's not as if the US population is going to sit down and say, "well hell, our President is responsible for that."

    Well, maybe they should.

    According to the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, "to initiate a war of aggression...is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

  29. Thanks, Slashdot by mrn121 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I have read obituaries that have been more positive than slashdotters' comments on the Iraq War. I know it doesn't look great, but what looks even worse is if this whole country obsesses over how bad it all looks instead of remaining confident and positive.


    Established facts:
    1) There were no WMDs
    2) We all thought there were WMDs
    3) We are currently in Iraq
    4) Most of us think we should not have gone in the first place, largely based on what we know now

    I am tired of disputing these topics. We are there, right now, regardless of why, and whether or not you did support/would have supported the invasion. Let's get past that and talk about what to do now to try and make the best of this. This report (which, BTW, none of us have actually read) allegedly starts from the present and tries to figure out the best course of action from this point forward, and I applaud that. I just wish that some slashdotters could do the same thing.

    We get it, you hate George Bush. He is not (by a long shot) my favorite president either, but that shouldn't matter right now. Can we grow up and move on to actually accomplish something, or do we need to keep pointing fingers and accomplishing nothing?

    1. Re:Thanks, Slashdot by QCompson · · Score: 5, Insightful
      2) We all thought there were WMDs

      I'm tired of disputing these topics too, but when people make blanket statements such as this, I find it difficult to sit back idly. We all didn't think there were WMDs. I saw Colin Powell's presentation to the UN concerning the threat Iraq posed to the world. It was shite. Showing pictures of double-wide trailers, give me a break. During the whole lead-up to the war, the administration (IMO) seemed to be grasping at straws, trying their very best to convince americans that Saddam was the biggest threat the US was facing. It was all Bush would talk about at the time.

      Scott Ritter, a former UN weapons inspector, was on the talk-show circuit in 2003, disputing the administration's claims that Iraq had WMDs.

      You want to move forward, fine. You want to work to find solutions to this mess, fine. But don't rewrite history, and don't tell me what I did or did not think.

    2. Re:Thanks, Slashdot by cliffski · · Score: 2, Informative

      2) We all thought there were WMDs

      No we didn't. At least not in the UK. In fact, 2 million people amrched through central london 9the largest demonstration in the UK in living memory) to say exactly that. If Saddam had WMD we wouldnt have invaded him (see N korea for details). The best evidence to support the WMD theory was some student dissertation lifted off the web (see 'the dodgy dossier').
      Don't pretend there was consensus about WMD before the war. There was not. Call Hans Blix and ask him if your still unsure.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    3. Re:Thanks, Slashdot by Darby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      but the one fact remains that we are there now, and that this bickering does NOTHING to fix that.

      And leaving the criminals who started this fiasco in power does EVERYTHING to prevent any possible reasonable solution.

      Allowing terrorists to keep their jobs running America rather than throwing their asses into the chair as they have earned is a huge part of the problem. Without fixing that *first* we can't possibly fix the whole thing.

      The fact that many of your "facts" are wrong, and that you keep repeating idiotic lies about who thought what when what you're saying is *wrong* does nothing to help your case.

  30. the new plan by blurker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The plan is to stay in Iraq until the last helicopter leaves the embassy rooftop...

  31. minority report .. by rs232 · · Score: 2

    Declare the Geneva Convention obsolete. Bug the UN. Split NATO. Overthrow a stable military dictatorship and disband the Army the now unemployed members of which will go on to form the future insurgent organisations . Watch the country descend into total civil war, a magnet for every disaffected youth in the middle east. Watch helplessly as the country is infiltrated by insurgents from Iran, Siria and Jordan. Then announce victory and withdraw. Repeat same in Afghanistan. Give legal sanction to torture. Declare victory for democracy.

    http://www.kron.com/global/story.asp?s=1962000&Cli entType=Printable
    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956, 1157547,00.html
    http://fpc.state.gov/fpc/8688.htm

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  32. Re:Divide and Conquer by fimbulvetr · · Score: 2, Funny

    Or, as the daily show famously put it: "A Neapolitan of ethnicity".

  33. TaaDaa! by jefu · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Step one: Leave Iraq.
    Taadaa!!! Problems solved.

    Much as I thought that getting in to Iraq was at best stupid, and much as I think the US really should not be there, simply getting out seems less than responsible. We replaced an insane, cruel, arbitrary dictator who nonetheless kept order (but, of course, for how long) with chaos, foreign occupation and what might seems to be turning out to be an insane, cruel , arbitrary and very disorderly civil war. If there is a way to do it, (which I'm far from sure is the case) we owe it to the Iraqis (and their neighbors and the international community in general) to leave the country with some kind of stability that is likely to last for a bit. Otherwise, we are not only not fixing anything, we have, like a spoiled child , deliberately broken things and are leaving the pieces for everyone else to pick up and try to fix.

    It may not be feasible to find a way to manage this. It is almost certainly not going to be feasible without international cooperation which the US administration seems to continue to find distasteful. It doesn't help that they pissed off lots of other countries earlier in the process. It probably will involve a US president going with some serious humility to other countries, hat in hand, to ask for support (which almost certainly means it will not be this US president). But we owe it to the Iraqis to at least do our best to try.

    We also owe it to ourselves. Leaving Iraq to fester in civil war will be a legacy that the US will find it hard to overcome. If the civil war involves other Middle Eastern countries, it is hard to see how the US will avoid being seen as the ultimate cause. (Certainly Saddam Hussein also shares a good bit of the blame, but then the US seems to have been at least partly responsible in putting him in power.)

  34. Re:Said one lemming to the other.... by zacronos · · Score: 2

    BadAnalogyGuy, is that you?

    How can you call trying to patch a critical OS vulnerability ASAP a poor plan? Similarly, how can you call waiting 2 months to do it "perfectly" a great plan?

    I understand your point ("A poor plan aggressively executed is better than a great plan poorly executed."), but to claim that it is always true is ridiculous -- as is claiming that it is always false. There are times when being decisive and taking action with confidence (even if that chosen action is merely a mediocre plan) is more important than being wishy-washy and second-guessing everything you do, resulting in little or no action. But there are also times when the situation is delicate and complicated enough that the most obvious solutions would fail to achieve any of their goals, and forging ahead with anything but a very thoroughly considered plan will result in disaster. Perhaps you merely lack the requisite experience to realize there are times when subtlety is important?

  35. Well the one I asked by BitterAndDrunk · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The soldier I asked was pretty drunk, but I figure we can forgive that since he was discharged due to losing his right leg above the knee from a roadside bomb.

    His opinion of Iraq wasn't so rosy, but hey, he was drunk. I'm sure when he's sober he'll be cheery and optimistic about his sacrifice for the War on Terror? Liberty? Iraqi Freedom? I forget why we're there. Maybe you can enlighten me.

    --
    You better watch out, there may be dogs about . . .
    1. Re:Well the one I asked by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The soldier I asked was pretty drunk, but I figure we can forgive that since he was discharged due to losing his right leg above the knee from a roadside bomb.

      If you see him again, buy him a beer for me.

      This is something we don't hear about very much. I was deeply distrubed when the news and government started to only report U.S. fatalities. Every other report of war I'd ever heard talked about casualties, as in soldiers taken out of combat by death or injury. It sounded very suspicious -- the numbers sounded fairly low (at the time) relative to other conflicts, but all I knew about other conflicts were casualties, which are always several times higher than the number outright killed. Yet those numbers weren't being mentioned, making it sound like a deliberate attempt to hide the larger and thus more depressing number.

      So as we cross past the 3,000 mark of dead coalition soldiers, we have 46,000 non-mortal casualties. Not all of those are crippling injuries, but nevertheless we're going to be seeing a whole lot more soldiers like the one you met. Especially like that, since the roadside bomb taking out a soldier's legs but not killing them seems to be the most common mode of injury.

      I hope to God all those people who support this war will "Support the Troops" when they see one sitting at the traffic light on a board, no legs, holding a sign that says "Iraq vet, need food and work" and drop the man some cash. I know I will.

      Figures are from http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    2. Re:Well the one I asked by mazarin5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The casualty number is high and fatality number is low for two reasons:

      1. Because we are essentially entrenched at critical, known locations, our units are easy to locate and sabotage. Also, because they are largely in cities full of civilians, it's often impossible to identify an enemy until they've already struck. That means that just about every attack is a surprise attack, with minimal chance for winning any particular conflict. This is going to result in high casualties, fatal and non-fatal.

      2. Because of improvements in medical technology, and quick access to medical services due to the locations they're fighting in, many of the casualties turn out to be non-fatal, even if they otherwise cripple or maim the soldiers in question. This keeps the fatality number low compared to the overall casualty count.

      #2 is the reason that they pick the fatality number over casualties, the smaller number looks better. Combine that with the fact that most people don't understand the difference between fatality and casualty, and you've got good spin with no effort.

      --
      Fnord.
  36. The Stupid French-Chinese... by LanMan04 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Of course there's still war!

    The stupid French-Chinese think they have a right to Hawaii!!

    --
    With the first link, the chain is forged.
  37. Re:Why? by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Sorry, I don't give two shits about their country, if it dissolves into civil war, or dissolves into thin air. I bet most Americans don't."

    So what do you think going into a country promising liberation, tearing down a regime and destroying the status quo, and then running away when it comes time to rebuild because a handful (yes a handful) of American lives are lost is going to do? Do you think the Islamic fundamentalists who've been preaching war on the West will turn around and say "oh, let's leave them alone now"? No, all it will accomplish is installing a new, possibly even more anti-Western regime in Iraq and leave the Iraqi people as a massive reservoir for terrorist recruitment as they'll (quite rightly) feel betrayed by the Western armies that came in, shot the place up, and then left them to pick up the peices amidst nationwide strife. Again.

    It's exactly your kind of thinking that is one of the greatest fuels for the fundamentalist cause. The idea that the relatively tiny amount of American lives that will be lost stablising Iraq are worth more than the many many thousands of arabs who will die if coalition forces pull out too soon is nothing short of racist. Why would you expect some kid growing up under the thumb of an oppressive regime in the Middle East to turn away from a cause that demands the wanton murder of Westerners when you have no greater respect for the lives of his people?

    --
    Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
  38. fuck you fascist pig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Every soldier I have asked who has returned from actual combat in Iraq has said the whole country is fucked and was getting more fucked every single day. The Iraqi military and police are either incompetent or completely infiltrated by insurgents, the Iraqi people almost all hate America, the reconstruction effort has been horribly mismanaged and is almost a complete failure.
    I'm sure there are some soldiers out there who love to fight and kill and do all the soldierly things, or who are fanatical Bush supporters, or who can't admit to themselves that their friends died or that they killed people for no good reason - but the fact is, Iraq is a victory for Iran and al-Qaeda, not the US.

  39. Turkey will behave ... maybe by GreenEggsAndHam · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Turkey badly needs to get into the EU. They won't do anything aggressive to Kurdistan unless they want to spoil any chance of getting into the EU.

    This is admittedly a slight gamble : it's also possible that the Turks will finally give up trying to get into the EU and will go along with a revived Islamic wave coming from Iran. And then we'll have a huge muslim threat right on our (EU) doorstep.

    Oh well, we're all doomed anyway.

  40. Reading the article makes me sad. by kinglink · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sad that simple geopolitical facts escaped the group.

    But first look on the second page, the list of group members brings up an odd question. Why is Clinton Confidant Vernon Jordan on that list? Why are three out of four of the democrats, people who were under Clinton? Oh right because the Democrats believe he was such a genius. However I think that would make anyone but the most diehard Clinton fans balk. Why is the Fourth democrat a senator who was defeated in an election where he was the only democrat incumbant to lose?

    Republicans are slightly better, at least having attorney generals, and Supreme Court Justices from a variety of Area, but there's still a lot of concern to be had there. This just makes me feel there is just reason for anyone to ignore the report.

    The bigger problem is they have debated reaching out to Iran and Syria for help on Iraq. Anyone who has a little knowledge of the situation of both countries knows Iran is a quagmire waiting to happen and have likely been sponsoring or instigating the insurgence in Iraq, Syria is normally seen as a group who has in the past conducting state sponsored terrorism, however they have "cleaned up their act" at least enough after 9/11 that we can pretend to work with them. Though both countries would have been better options to attack over Iraq, and still are, the only problem is both have issues that made them less desirable.

  41. Re:meh by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What do you mean? NYT is a huge pack of lies. What the OP seems to have completely forgotten about was how the NYT spent so much time lying in order to support the administration. Their utter credulity and willingness to forward any government propaganda as if it was God's Truth (remember the Trailers of Mass Destruction?) was what started them on this path towards irrelevence, to the point that they had to publish an article about their own shitty reporting in order to try to maintain some journalistic integrity. If they then swerved the other way and try to paint everything against Bush using the same shoddy journalism, in a futile attempt to appear to be "on the ball" after they dropped it so badly, why would I be surprised?

    As far as I'm concerned, the NYTs only purpose is that it still seems to have some of the best contacts of any paper and can get leaked copies of memos and reports before anyone else. I do not trust them to accurately represent the contents, but at least the memos' existence gets in the news to be covered by other news outlets.

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    The enemies of Democracy are
  42. Relocate the troops by Krommenaas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here's an idea for the US to somewhat vindicate itself: move the troops to Darfur and set up a safe area for the refugees near the border with Chad. This time most of the international community will support you, the local population will love you, there'll be a clear frontline and you'll do some actual good. Of course there's no oil but I'm sure that doesn't bother the lofty idealists in the white house.