Slashdot Mirror
Air Force Jams Garage Doors
SonicSpike points us to a Chicago Tribune article reporting that in Colorado the Air Force is jamming garage doors. In a joint U.S.-Canadian operation, they were testing communications on a frequency that would be used by first responders in the event of a threat to homeland security. From the article: "But the frequency also controls an estimated 50 million garage door openers, and hundreds of residents in the area found that theirs had suddenly stopped working... Technically, the Air Force has the right to the frequency, which it began using nearly three years ago at some bases. Signals have previously interfered with garage doors near bases in Florida, Maryland, and Pennsylvania."
This happened to me on Maple Street. Caused quite a stir and a few people wound up shot in the action ... course they were commies so no harm done.
What that sentence could be trying to say is that the Air Force has the rights to the frequency, but only started using it three years ago.
until I go out and find an F16 in the garage.
The government retains 'right of way' access for most everything when its 'for the public good'.
Be glad they are not taking the entire house to put in a super highway and its just your door that isnt working.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You can do many nifty things with a $10,000 screwdriver.
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
So the test was a total success. Because it proved, in undeniable public, that in the event of an emergency, the first responders around essential Air Force bases would be getting jammed by people opening their garage doors.
These tests are important. That's why I was stunned when I realized (3 years later) that on September 11, 2001, I didn't hear a single transmission of the Emergency Broadcast System. If ever there were an emergency during my lifetime that the public needed broadcasts to know what what was happening and what to do, it was multiple aerial bombings of NYC and the Pentagon. But there was nothing.
Though we'd all been taught since childhood to be always at least a little bit subconsciously afraid, but trusting the government had a system to handle even the ultimate emergency: nuclear war. And endured countless nerve-rattling drills, usually interrupting the most otherwise "relaxing" TV and radio (PBS, mostly).
I guess those weren't "tests" at all. They were the real thing: steady fear/trust propaganda. Never really expected to do anything in any kind of emergency, even survivable ones like 9/11/2001. Because they all delivered the desired result.
So maybe these Air Force tests are really failures. Because instead of keeping people irrationally afraid, yet trusting the government, they've actually woken people up.
--
make install -not war
oh noooooooooo, now they'll have to get their fat asses out of their car and do the keypad instead! NOOOOO!!!! What is this, the middle ages?! Maybe some ppl will hire illegal immigrants to open their garages for them :P Then again, there's always the wireless, computer controller option :D Anyone got a driver for a USB 2.4 GHz garage door?
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
Yeah, I live in Colorado Springs and they started to test the system as it was snowing. What really was awful was that the lock on our screen door jammed the day previous so I was locked out of my house!
While I agree w/your post, "technically" is the correct word here. We need a +1 Unfortunate mod.
the problem here is that those garage doors openers are unlicensed transmitters using a band they wouldn't be allowed to use if it wasn't for the "low power" exceptions. if they'd put their transmitters on a public band or gotten a license, they wouldn't have this problem
They shouldn't have made their openers to operate on this frequency, in the first place. It's no secret which frequencies are allocated to the US gov't. It's laziness on the part of the company.
And what occur the garge owners use their remote-control? Does this jam the Airforce frequency??
8:30 am:
"- Chief, we have fired the missile!
"- Hum, which missile?
"- Well, The Missile, ya know!
"- Ah..... Ah? Who has given that order?
"- Well, you know, Washington signals nowadays are rather mixed but I confirm the emission was on the usual frequency and has been repeated frantically in the last minutes. According to the Terrestrial Message Bluring Scheme we have had for some years now, the Message came from many locations but with the same words in it".
"- Hum... It certainly comes from the White House then. Big affair."
I am not Remy Mouton, unfortunately: http://remy.mouton.free.fr/art/
TFA was short on details. This article http://www.krdotv.com/story.cfm?nav=news&storyID=1 613 says disruptions were affecting devices in the 390 MHz spectrum range.
According to the US Department of Commerce, http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf, the 335.4 to 399.9 MHz band is licensed exclusively to the government.
Sorry for the lack of HTML skills.
The FCC will give you a free pass if you're below some maximum power, which brings us to this tidbit from TFA: Holly Strack, who lives near the entrance to the facility, said friends in the neighborhood all had the same problem. "I never thought my garage door was a threat to national security," she said.
Don't worry hon, your garage door opener isn't a threat, unless you're somehow violating FCC regulations.
And this genius: David McGuire, whose Overhead Door Co. received more than 400 calls for help, said
If by "sign of the times" you mean "the military is getting around to testing systems that should have been up and running years ago".
Why does this article try to inject so much fear into what is a relatively straight forward issue?
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
I wager these garage doors have that little notice on them, you know, the one that says "this is an FCC class B(?) device... must not interfere, must accept any such interference, blah, blah, blah...". The manufacturer can stand behind that. It's CYA compliant, probably, from a legal standpoint. It's definitely not PR compliant. I don't see this so much as a problem with the Air Force trampling on our rights, as a company that took a gamble that there would never be any powerful interference that would mess with their device. Usually there isn't.
All that aside, USAF should either stop using the frequency or offer to refund a retrofit of existing doors--whichever is cheaper. I can also foresee the mfct recalling the doors; but if they do that they probably have no recourse with the government. After all, they knew they were taking a chance by producing such a device. And then the garage door people could start using ultrasonic or infrared, with a crypto key of some kind between the receiver and transmitter to guarantee non-interference, and that would be that.
This is just another reason for me to be happy I don't have a car, nevermind a garage.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Evacuation doesn't matter if the Goa'uld or Ori invade us. The Alpha Site won't be able to hold all of humanity.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Just a casual thought; But could someone on the Air Force staff flip the their garage door switch every time UCLA scores against USC so that the garage doors open up in a nation wide "wave"?
Its not that at all. When they purchased those devices, they were licences under Part 15. Which states, A. the device must accept harmfull interferance B. the device cannot emmit any harmfull interference. They are a secondary user of those frequencies, and funciton is not garanteed on those frequencies for those devices by the FCC. Its like when my ham radio equipment interfears with the naibors baby monitor. The first problem is i'm not even using the frequency it uses, just one close to it, and the poor design and construction of the device comes into play. Second of all, I fall under part 97 rules, which allows me to generate some levels of interference, so long as it is 120db down from my primart transmitting frequency, i'm legal.
This has nothing to do with rights, there never were any rights to those frequencies for the public, they were never anything more than a secondary user.
I don't know if this one is actually true, but I've seen quite a few of these stories pop up, none of which ended up being true. In fact, our town had one, but there was no military base anywhere near, but in spite of that, the Air Force still got blamed. Just change your batteries.
There was nothing obligatory about that. And the "joke" part wasn't that accurate either.
Well, gentlemen, we know who here has a garage door opener. :-)
LOL.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Normally, I like to assume good faith when commenting. I'll make an exception in your case. Shut the fuck up. Please. Owning a device which uses a certain frequency doesn't necessarily allow you the right to use that frequency.
'nuff said.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
I certainly wouldn't worry about it. I don't even know what that crank AC was reponding to.
LONE STAR!
What's the frequency, Kenneth?
Ah yes - the immediate assumption that the citizens are in the right, and the goverment in the wrong. Only in this case, that assumption is wrong.
Garage door openers are what are called class 'B' devices - devices that transmit using extremely low power and are unlicensed and unregulated. Because they are extremely low power, they can pretty much use any band they want. In exchange for this freedom from licensing and regulation however, theres a catch - owners of class 'B' devices may not interfere with legal and/or licensed users of the band in question, and must accept any interference from said legal and/or licensed users of the band in question. This is usually spelled out in tiny, tiny print in the users manual.
That being said - you'd be surprised how much class 'B' (sometimes called 'part 15') devices you have in your house. I bet if you check the manuals for your computer (or motherboard), your stereo, your TV, any radios, etc... I bet they all carry the appropriate disclaimers.
This also happened in Ottawa in 2005. This story and this story sum up the incident. I was in Ottawa at the time, and I keenly remember the US Embassy lying to our face about using this signal. "Oddly" enough, the problem stopped once the CBC contacted the Embassy and asked them about it. Too bad those engineers didn't get to trace the signal back. What also got to me while trying to get through downtown is how the embassy is allowed to eat up a lane of traffic for their precious concrete walls, as if there was ever a real danger in Canada. I heard that those walls were tested in Canada because of the low risk, I guess it's convenient to test concrete walls and signal jamming here.
There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men. -- Boondock Saints
Am I the only one that thought that trapping your hand inside the top of the door (the first to be eaten into the ceiling) and pulling the MANUAL RELEASE LEVER is an extraordinarily bad idea?
I know of more than a few people due to fly out of JFK/EWR that weekend, who made it all the way to the toll tunnels into NYC and be returned...
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Well given that essentially 99% of all cars in my neighbourhood are parked on the street (even though they have driveways the lazy bastards) I'd say this isn't really a problem.
If you're the type that owns a $50,000 sports car of some sort, you can afford to put a KEY LOCK on your garage door and MOVE ON with your life.
If you're driving the typical rusted out shitbox car that is hardly street legal (e.g. most of Ottawa) then you need not worry about it.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
For real. And judging by the 'omg teh gov't is teh evilz' posts here, it is working quite well.
I thought it was funny, but apparently it is a political issue to some, obviously the American Government are evil fascists for this human rights outrage.
For a few hours on one random day I was faced with the decision of whether to shut my garage door manually or wait until the test was completed...that's it, the terrorists have won.
All this "unlicensed transmitter" stuff which says basically if the thing doesn't work it's not the manufacturer's fault and it's not the FCC's fault, is nonsense.
It's as if there were an "unlicensed vehicle" exception for small devices like Segways and pogo sticks, that said "you are allowed to operate this device on interstate highways, but you are required not to interfere with big trucks and you are required to accept any interference from big trucks."
The FCC's job is--or should be--to regulate spectrum usage so that garage door openers don't interfere with the Air Force, and vice versa. I think they got distracted by Janet Jackson's nipple.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
How about looking at from a different perspective. Quit being so damned cheap!!!
Garage door openers, RFID tags, baby monitors, cordless phones, wireless microphones, wireless routers and many other devces are unlicensed devices. They are permitted to operate only when they do not cause interferance to licensed service. They are not garanteed to operate if a licensed service is operating near by.
Radio spectrum is scarce. The Air Force has had a license to those frequencies since 1934. RTFM that came with the garage door opener. The manufacturer clearly states a garage door opener is an unlicensed device and as such a licensed operator can have the unlicensed device shut down if interference occurs. Further the FCC can fine an operator of an unlicensed device $10,000 if he continue to use it to cause interfere with a licensed service. On the other hand, a licensed user has no responsibility to protect the unlicensed user from interferance.
If you want garanteed operation, purchase a device with a licensed central dispatch, obtain a license to use that frequency and pay the monthly dispatch fee for the licensed service. Otherwise, don't complain when you get something (like the use of radio spectrum) for free. Especially when someone else owns the rights to that spectrum.
Those garage door openers are operating under Part 15 of the FCC regulations, which permit you to use a frequency normally assigned to someone else as long as you don't interfere with the assigned user. In this case, "someone else" is the Air Force.
If you have one of those gadgets, read the little booklet that came with it and you'll see this spelled out. If you interfere with the Air Force, you'll have to turn your unit off; if they interfere with you, you get sympathy. That's the deal you signed up for when you bought a low-priced piece of hardware.
Oh, by the way, your wireless router operates under Part 15 too.
rj
Tell that to your 86 year old grandma in winter (my grandma still drives, and safely I might add). She may still drive, but she shouldn't open the door even if she might physically be able to. What about handicapped folks?
The solution here is that garage doors need to be in a licensed space (and have the government avoid that frequency for this sort of thing) and using some sort of spread spectrum frequency hopping deal that hopefully will find a working window of space.
There's just too many garage door openers out there for this to happen overnight, but make all new openers have it and eventually you'll get there (10 years or so?).
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
BTW, I'm part of the squadron that helped get this system online for the testing.. At our unit's holiday party, they presented the squadron commander a garage door opener as his door prize.
FCC Part 15 Class B covers:
-residential use
-digital devices (computing devices/"unintentional radiators")
A wireless door opener is designed for wireless transmission, and is not a computer, therefore it does not enjoy Class B protections.
"Let me get this straight, ma'am... you actually drove _through_ your garage doors?"
"Well, they usually open pretty fast... when bits of the door started landing on the car roof, I started to realise that something had gone wrong. Is that ok?"
Would it be so hard to have a button and a fucking wire? It's not like the radio signals are encrypted or anything, so the only thing it does is make your life a bit simpler... big deal.
Better yet, put a keypad and a simple 3-4 digit code. That'll keep the stupid neighbourhood kids out AND let you open the door without all the strain of "sliding a door open" [which unless you're ADA you should be able to do if you're a driver...]
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Maybe they were just trying to lure foreign airforces to use it in their hangars, so if^H^H when the U.S invades somewhere all the pilots are stuck behind two very, very large doors.
A cunning plan indeed
When the posters fear their moderators, there is tyranny; when the moderators fears the posters, there is liberty.
So, this is just one sacrifice that has to made in this time of war. Certainly opening up your own garage door is not too much to ask when Americans are being killed everyday overseas. It is like higher gas prices. If we are going to be at war, then everyone has to sacrifice a little.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
My spouse grew up in the 70s near Laguna Beach and the El Toro Marine Air Station in SoCal and there were regular instances of people's garage doors opening and closing as various military jets flew nearby. It was just a fact of life that people got used to from living nearby, and nobody was too bothered about it.
The government was allocated that frequency band, and the USAF is using it to perform their mission, thus serving the needs of the people. Garage door opener manufacturers used part of that frequency band, even though it wasn't allocated to them. If the garage doors have problems with the USAF using part of a frequency that was allocated to the government, it is on the garage door opener manufacturers/owners to change their frequency.
This seems real similar to the arguments by folks who buy homes near airports and then complain about the jet noise.
According to this article, most door openers use 390 MHz, with some using 315 MHz and 372 MHz. All of these frequencies are in a band that is reserved for the federal government. For example, military aeronautical radio systems, including the backup communications system on the Space Shuttle, use the 225-400 MHz band. Any unlicensed users of this band do so at their own risk. The manufacturers of garage door openers have only themselves to blame. It's like building a house in that nice, empty artillery practice range.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I've seen this one before, and before. I'm pretty sure the story was confirmed each time, though, but that the affected range is quite small (within a few miles of the base, depending on geography).
I'm still not sure whether I believe it, of course, as I'm not being affected (nor do I know anyone that is). If you've got some articles pointing out to the urban legendness of the stories, I'm all ears. Er, eyes.
The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
I believe many of those keypads are still wireless so that doesn't necessarily work either.
"-residential use"
Garage door openers are (primarily) residential devices. As well, it's not the "protection" that is the concern here. They are class B devices, and are therefore subject to interference from the primary licensed users of the frequencies they use.
That aside, a "wireless door opener" is designed for wireless transmission, yes. This does not however preclude it from classifying as a digital device. Computing devices and "unintentional radiators" are merely examples of some class B devices.
Just because a blender isn't built specifically to shred your hand, doesn't mean it can't.
Galen
In your face, and always right!
Unlicensed radio systems (like the garage door openers, ALL your WiFi gear, your car keyfob, etc etc, but NOT, IIRC, cell phones) operate under "FCC Part 15," widely mentioned elsewhere in this discussion. The important point in this regard is that ALL Part 15 devices operate subject to two inflexible rules: 1) you can't interfere with licensed users, and 2) it's your bad luck if licensed users interfere with you.
Unless a manufacturer of wireless gadgets wants to require every user to get a license (not an option for most gear), there is basically NO way to avoid the Part 15 restrictions; licensed users (emergency services, licensed commercial radio systems, and militery users) will always trump nonlicensed users. It won't happen often, but when it does, ya just gotta live with it.
"My strength is as the strength of ten men, for I am wired to the eyeballs on espresso."
Further the FCC can fine an operator of an unlicensed device $10,000 if he continue to use it to cause interfere with a licensed service.
---
and in the case of the Air Force they can just decide to "park" a Sidewinder in your garage (thus removing the problem)
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Maybe this is what you meant, but I've actually seen a lot of garage doors with those keypads (and most garage doors have a wire installed in the garage rather than a wireless remote)- I suppose if you were expecting these jammings regularly, a keypad wouldn't be a bad investment unless you lived somewhere cold (majority of the US in winter?). I still wouldn't want my grandma getting out in 20 degree weather- but fortunately she lives in sunny california in an area where it seldom gets that cold. Anyway, I guess my point is, people were caught unprepared for the jamming and probably will be again next time. Someone should be suggesting the keypads to the affected folks.
notwithstanding use in commercial, business and industrial environments. What is a digital device? (k) Digital device. (Previously defined as a computing device). An unintentional radiator
(device or system) that generates and uses timing signals or pulses at a rate in excess of 9,000 pulses
(cycles) per second and uses digital techniques; inclusive of telephone equipment that uses digital
techniques or any device or system that generates and uses radio frequency energy for the purpose of
performing data processing functions, such as electronic computations, operations, transformations,
recording, filing, sorting, storage, retrieval, or transfer. A radio frequency device that is specifically
subject to an emanation requirement in any other FCC Rule Part or an intentional radiator subject to
Subpart C of this Part that contains a digital device is not subject to the standards for digital devices,
provided the digital device is used only to enable operation of the radio frequency device and the digital
device does not control additional functions or capabilities. Note: Computer terminals and peripherals
that are intended to be connected to a computer are digital devices. Since a digital device is clearly defined as an "unintentional radiator", wireless door openers are not considered Class B devices.
If anyone is interested, the Part 15 regulations can be found here: http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/rules/part15/part15-8
Yes, and let's hope they only use it for good... like you described.
The few basic laws of US Government budgets.
1. Funding is allocated each year.
2. All remaining funds at the end of a fiscal year are lost. (Not rolled over into the next year. This is looking at things from an office perspective.)
3. Next year's allocation is reduced from the previous years by the amount unused in the current year.
4. Allocations are divided into Products and Services (items versus contractor work).
This leaves offices in a bit of a bind at the end of the fiscal year. If they don't use all their money, they get less next year which, of course, is a situation no manager wants to have happen to their unit regardless if they need it or not. Most units use all of their services money easily as contracts typically run over a longer term and are planned for. Product budgets are harder to watch. For the first 3/4 of the fiscal year, managers are trying to scrimp and save on everything they do "just in case." At the end of the year they find themselves with leftover money. How do they spend it to keep it from getting taken away next year?
Typical draining methods of product budget allocations:
1. Transfer the money to another unit. (This helps to get big ticket items purchased and solve many problems at once. New servers? Well, we decided we didn't need them before (savings mode) but let's get the top of the line (gotta drain it! mode).
2. Buy lots of external storage drives and thumb drives.
3. Recognizing that they still need service work completed but have no more money in that fund, negotiate a contract with a company to "buy" necessary items which happen to come with "free" service. So, a $10,000 screwdriver translates into short-term facilities contract. (Most likely re-re-reconfiguring offices and cubes to make the new feel powerful.)
So while it all seems very dubious, rest assured that it is, in fact, dubious.
Unfortunately it is all necessary as well. As long as budget allocations are done on a set scale from year to year, units can never plan for things like systems upgrades (heavy spending year) versus maintenance (lighter spending year). This means each unit needs to clear their account by the end of the fiscal year to ensure they have, at some later point, almost all the money they might need for that project which will probably need to be done, maybe. (Wording is intentional.)
The small transmitter in your car isn't an "unintentinal radiator", but the receiver in the garage is, and that's where the inteference is happening.
Look, I'm not going to take the popular road here, but CHRIST this is NOT a big sacrifice that's being asked of people. The AF is looking for a secure communications in case of a MASSIVE emergency. This isn't some podunk little thing that gets run every wed at 5pm, this is a massive attack due to natural disaster, accident (such as a petrol plant exploding) or a planned staged attack!
People are WHINING because their doors don't work.
Here's a clue, and maybe it's because of the way I was raised ("Son, get out and go open the door for your mother") or maybe it's because there are more importan things to bitch about, but "YOU DO NOT HAVE THE INNATE RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE YOUR GARAGE DOOR FROM YOUR CAR!".
There is a little thing about Life and the pursuit of happieness, but that's just a little thing some people forget about on a regular basis.
He was responding to a well known troll, obviously.
Windows is like decaf - it tastes like the real thing, but it won't get you through the day.
Here's a clue for you: garage door openers are for residential use and class 'B' protection is not limited to digital devices. In fact, the FCC themselves cite part 15 in this press release about garage door interference.
Park in the driveway?
If you're so fragile that 20F weather is "deadly" then you shouldn't be driving. What if your car dies in the middle of a country road? You're fucked.
Hint: put a fucking coat on.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Correct, these are Part 15 devices, wrong on Class B. Class B devices are digital devices that make use of a signal of 9khz (or is that 90khz) that are NOT suppose to radiate RF.
Well, I've needed my garage cleaned for a while anyway....
"Since a digital device is clearly defined as an "unintentional radiator", wireless door openers are not considered Class B devices."
Again, you're missing the point. Simply because the device may be an intentional radiator, doesn't preclude it from falling under a Class B device. Class A devices are devices designed and built for commercial or industrial purposes, class B however is no different from class A, except that class B must be "damped wave" to avoid interference with your neighbor's TV. If you read the paperwork that comes with a wireless adapter, there is quite often a section that references section 15, subpart B.
That being said, I would assume that a wireless card in a laptop classifies as an intentional radiator. How is it that a wireless card, an intentional radiator by it's very nature, is classified by the FCC as a class B device, yet a similarly operating device is not?
I'd suggest you take a look at the back of your garage door remote, unless of course you've been living under a rock for a while. Mine says, plain as day, "FCC Section 15 Compliant, Class B" If that's not enough logic for you, I don't know what is.
Galen
In your face, and always right!
I believe the receiver would be considered part of a system, since a receiver is useless without a transmitter, and is usually sold as part of a kit. Also, there is also the requirement of being a "digital device". It is an electrical device (PCB based), but it would be difficult to argue that the equipment is designed for "the purpose of
performing data processing functions".
In normal operation, the receiver is wired to a motor that opens a door; that would make the door-side equipment an "incidental radiator", which isn't covered under Class B.
However, the spectrum is licensed by the FCC as part of the public airwaves. A powerful case could be made that the government should give that spectrum up to garage door owners, because they get more public use out of it.
After all, the government really doesn't need it, and garage doors are already using it.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
Class B is a only one subset of Part 15. Check the press release you linked; you won't find Class B mentioned.
This is where the baseless FUD comment about a censorship conspiracy theory goes, right?
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
Well, since gravity pulls things DOWN, not UP... Yes.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Although they would be tested as a system, the rules for each piece would still be different. For example, in my Wayne-Dalton system, the remote transmitter has its own FCC ID: KJ8HHT-3720. You can see from the block diagram on the FCC site that it only includes the transmitter, not the receiver. It would be difficult to argue that the receiver isn't a digital device - anything with pulses over 9000 per second, and "using digital techniques" qualifies - how do you think it decodes the transmitter key codes? Just because it has a motor drive doesn't mean it's not a digital system.
yes, yes, your anguish sustains me.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I think a certain Mr. Crankypants just volunteered to be chauffeur for a certain fucking demographic.
Al-qaida sleeper cells can't do much damage with their car bombs if they can't get them out of the garage.
I lived near (the former) George AFB near cosmopolitan Victorville, California in 1987.
Air Force ONE visited the area once and our garage doors were unresponsive to their remotes, and at one point that week my garage door opened by itself. Periodically there would be such occurrences even when AF1 wasn't around, but the word in the neighborgood was that it was related to AF1, (and we had plenty of Zoomie types living there who would know) and I personally witnessed exactly one (possibly coincidental) occurance of that.
The base closed around 1992, and all garage door anomolies ceased.
The receivers on these units are pretty simple, though there is a bit more sophistication these days with the addition of more complex digital codes. There is little RF selectivity in the front ends. I had a pathetic "genie" type unit.
Bah, I'm an equal player hater.
:-)
I may be a relatively new driver, but the number of driving violations I witness on my drive (of 12 mins) to work could keep any small town well provided for in ticket revenue.
Old people are particularly bad though as they get into that rut of "I've been driving for 113 years, it's my right!" and then proceed to break every rule there is out there. Younger people are not really any better, but at least they're less entitled.
And my biggest pass time is driving the speed limit in the right-hand lane. The amount of people that infuriates is amazing. Especially since they proceed to then cut me off. The reason I drive the limit [other than it's the law] is that I'm a new driver and I need more space to drive safely. Them cutting me off doesn't solve the problem
Anyways, point is if you're too fragile to open a door (hint: springs) or survive -6C weather, chances are you shouldn't be driving a car. You need more muscle than that and frankly if you get stranded you're just wolf food. Sorry if that offends people but it's also common sense. I imagine if I went blind I probably wouldn't feel entitled to drive just because "I had a license at one point." Grow old gracefully and with dignity, not behind the wheel of a car doing 30 under the limit swirving in and out of lanes.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Sounds a bit like http://www.snopes.com/horrors/techno/radar.asp to me.
Where is the RF geek who is going to figure out exactly how much extra power you'd need to but through that jamming at say, 200 feet. Increasing the power of the transmitter through some simple mod, or soldering on an antenna connector and using something from a 1970's movie about CB's and trucks seems like the clear call of the day!
Surely someone here can do the math...
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
You can get a logic board for most newer Chamberlain openers that works on the 420MHz frequency. When I was working there, we had the ability to send one out for free at our discretion if a customer was having interference issues. I live near Davis Monthan AFB, and phantom door operation is a common thing if you live near the base when using the older 390MHz boards. (insurance claim anyone?)
I don't have any problems with my 420MHz board, in fact I get a better range with my remotes on 420MHz. If you are having problems with an opener made by Chamberlain (LiftMaster, Craftsman, etc) give them a call at (800) 528-5880 and explain the problems you are having and mention that you live near an Air Force Base, and they will likely send out a replacement board free of cost.
If you do have to pay, it is ~$60USD for a new logic board. They are very easy to replace.
Wire up your transmitter to a big antenna, and keep boosting the output power, until the garage door opens :)
It seems like possibly a one-time event to me. How do you open the garage door when the power goes out?
"However, the spectrum is licensed by the FCC as part of the public airwaves." The FCC has no jurisdiction over government (eg military) radio/spectrum use. The National Telecommunications and Information Administration does. www.ntia.gov
Can you say "Part 15 device"? I knew you could.
And the NTIA trumps the FCC. The NTIA assigns frequency blocks to the FCC.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
"..so long as it is 120db down from my primart transmitting frequency, i'm legal."
;)
But as a good ham, if notified of RFI you would stop transmitting and look at getting a notch filter. Now you've got me trying to figure out what combo of ham freqs or harmonics would cause interference at the gov 300MHz band.
If you are hamsexy then you would be monitoring that channel anyway
73 de W7COM
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
"This is where the baseless FUD comment about a censorship conspiracy theory goes, right?"
Yeah, right, like anyone would believe the government would suddenly ja
Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
Well, after 9/11 we ARE all under constant surveillance of all our phone and internet traffic, and we've lost the right to a Writ of Habeas Corpus.
Sounds to me like it's been pretty damn convenient for SOME folks and their companies.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Comment removed based on user account deletion
from the article: "The signals were coming from Cheyenne Mountain Air Station."
They must have meant to block the iris from being opened on the stargate.
For this to happen as described, garage door openers must be responding to the mere presence of a signal. Are they really that simplistic? I would have thought that they would respond only to a particular pulse sequence or code of some sort. Not only would that prevent this kind of interference, but it would prevent one person's garage door opener from interfering with the neighbor's.
Well, after 9/11 we ARE all under constant surveillance of all our phone and internet traffic, and we've lost the right to a Writ of Habeas Corpus.
Sounds to me like it's been pretty damn convenient for SOME folks and their companies.
What's the evidence for this? Can you back up any one of those statements?
I refuse to open my garage door manually! I WON'T DO IT, YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!!!
/me goes to find a shyst^H^H^H^H^Hlawer.
I will sit in my car and scream profanities at my house and the air force while pushing the button on my opener over and over and making that odd throwing motion with the transmitter like it's going to add enough energy to the radio waves to make them work better (you've done it too, you know you have).
Wait, who can I sue?
09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
Jesus loves you, I think you suck
if they ever find out a terrorist is about to leave his home, they can prevent it by locking his carbomb up in his own garage!
Based on the information that has been provided it sounds like you should be sending your bill to the company that manufactured your garage door opener.
If you must!
That being said - you'd be surprised how much class 'B' (sometimes called 'part 15') devices you have in your house. I bet if you check the manuals for your computer (or motherboard), your stereo, your TV, any radios, etc... I bet they all carry the appropriate disclaimers.
The biggie that most people haven't noticed is many wireless alarm systems use these frequencies for their sensors. It's possible you may not record the motion sensor or smoke sensor during an Air Force communication. Optex runs on 310 Mhz. Fox wireless is 315 Mhz. Ademco is 315 Mhz.
The truth shall set you free!
"Honey? Is the garage door working? Hm.. that's odd." *click* *click* "Oh no! Get the children we're UNDER ATTACK by terrorists!!"
I, unfortunately, am sometimes that guy. The only times I do that, however, is when people are driving slow in a left-hand lane and there is plenty of room to get over. Although in that situation they may technically be obeying the law, what they are doing is creating a more dangerous situation by forcing people going above the speed limit to make a right-hand pass and generally pissing everybody off. It is very disruptive when someone thinks, "I am doing the speed limit, so it doesn't matter where on the road I'm at."
I do try and control my frustration and am generally not an asshole when driving, but there are definitely situations where people driving the speed limit are acting discourteous by ignoring those that want to get by. That's probably a small amount compared to the asshole drivers that just want to drive as fast as possible, though. I agree that riding behind someone trying to get them to go faster is extremely rude and dangerous, just wanted to add my 2 cents.
Or until the USAF triangulates your antenna and shows up to ask why you keep sending the code 11110101 to their control tower, with a louder gain every week...
I agree with you, but only on expressways. I HATE when I have to make a pass on the right side on expressways. On normal highways I understand people may have a left hand turn coming up, but that is not an issue on any expressway I drive on. That is about the only thing that makes me mad when I drive.
Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
If I decide my garage door opener uses a frequency somewhere in the middle of the FM band, should this prevent the FCC from allocating that space to any radio station?
The garage door openers are at fault for using a military frequency. The fact that they got there first doesn't give them the right to use it. They could have used the 2.4GHz band with no problems from anything.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Technically... you shouldn't *drive* in the left-lane no matter what speed you're doing. It's for passing and turning only.
That said, the speed limit guys are not causing the "danger" it's the asshats who speed. It's like saying you're causing a drive-by hazard by standing on a sidewalk in L.A...
Frankly, most people are just careless drivers who speed because they're not paying attention to what they're doing. If it truly were about saving a few mins they'd just leave a few mins earlier. Most people just "follow" traffic and don't look at their spedometer. Well shame on you. If the dude in front of me is doing 100 in an 80, good for him, I'll do 80 in the 80.
The first week I was driving to work, I did open up a bit and did 100 on the way home (km/h not mi/h). Took basically the same length of time, got stopped at the same sets of lights, etc. I stick to 80 now because it's safer [and the law...]. Only thing I look at the rear view when I'm driving for is emergency vehicles. The rest of the population can make all the faces and gestures they want.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
See that's one of those little things that piss me off.
It's ILLEGAL to speed to pass a car. That is, if a dude is doing 95 in a 100, and you have to do 120 to pass him [to avoid say, a head on collision] you've actually broken the law. This is mostly because the law, at least in Ontario, makes no exception for speeding while passing [otherwise you'd be free to do 160km/h while "passing"].
So the only time you should be passing cars is if they're driving too slow for the conditions (e.g. a moving violation), part of an accident/response, or are exiting the road.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
What ios the problem with an old fashionned metal key ? Maybe this is because I live in EU, but I know of next to nobody with a remote to open their garage... And I used to live in place where tehre is maybe 30 days of a sun during the year (northern coastal area: lot of rain there).
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
"Are you seriously telling me you weren't concerned ... You weren't looking up in the sky for any more planes?"
It had been broadcast in short order that the airline planes were accounted for and grounding in progress. I was in Columbus, one of the "targets". I was concerned as to what it all was, but I wasn't looking "in the sky".
Your sentence fulfills the 'paranoid fantasy' aspect. Getting information, yet being paranoid.
So, who wants to build a really big garage door opener and point it at the base?
... along with a complaint that their hangar doors are opening...
This is FUD. First the opener is a receiver. By changing the logic board (and frequency) then it will not work at all as the remotes are transmitting on the old 390 MHz freq. Second it is highly unlikely you get better range from 420 MHz. The lower the freq the better the range. There (execpt in this instance) is also less or no interference in the military band vs. the 420 band.
With the door I had, the cord allowed you to open the door manually. Wouldn't have done me a lot of good, as there was only one door to the garage.
However, there was a switch in the basement that shut the power off and you could open it then.
So when the power was off my garage door was unlocked.
Don't you love technology?
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
You don't lock your garage to keep people from stealing your car, you lock it to keep them from stealing the lawn mower and other tools.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
I "drive the lights", meaning 1-2 mph below the posted limit. If there's no traffic I don't have to stop at all, and save lots of gasoline.
What really burns me up is the morons who speed past me to the red light, then when I reach it I have to stop for the green light because the dumbass is sitting there at the green light with his (or usually her) head up his ass.
And they're usually driving an SUV. Why do the people with the most expensive and dangerous (to other people) vehicles drive worse than anybody on the road? I'd much rather see the silver hair barely peeking over the seat of a 1993 VW at half the limit than the 25 year old in the Escalade yakking on his/her phone weaving in and out of traffic at twice the limit.
If you drive an SUV you're a menace. And why do you "people" think you deserve two parking spaces??? If you want two spaces, break your spine and get a handicapped sticker, asshole.
Sorry for the outburst, I don't hate SUVs, just the way the rude and dangerous sociopaths who own them drive.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
he only times I do that, however, is when people are driving slow in a left-hand lane and there is plenty of room to get over. Although in that situation they may technically be obeying the law...
Not in Illinois. You can get a ticket for not getting over and letting someone pass unless there's a cop that's pulled someone over (you have to get in th eleft lane when there's an emergency vehicle on the side of the road with its flashers on).
What pisses me off about you is I'm driving down the highway at a legal speed (or legal enough not to get pulled over) with my cruise control, and you blast past me in the left lane. Then I get over to pass your grandma who's (legally) doing 55 instead of 65, and you're slamming on your brakes because you saw a cop and now you're matching granny's speed and I have to brake.
You know, there's this thing called global warming. Your grandkids are going to have to deal. Why don't you care? Every time you touch your brake you waste gas and the CO2 it releases when you burn it.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Yeah, you were in Columbus. We were in NYC, with planes roaring out of the sky into our buildings, millions of us engulfed in clouds of toxic smoke, hundreds of thousands fleeing on foot over bridges. After the same building had almost been knocked down only 8 years earlier. With the biggest TV/radio towers blown up, the main telephone centers smoking ruins, the mobile phone system swamped. The rumors running through the panicked crowd - that's bigger than your entire city - especially some that a plane had already smashed into the Pentagon, and then that another was headed for the White House (perhaps already hitting it or Congress). That could have been mitigated by the remaining radio/TV broadcasts carrying at least a message that the authorities were in control, so the millions of people who need that reassurance didn't lose their minds in terror. A little bit of incomplete info, with a massively lethal threat already killing thousands right in your face, is the recipe for terror. That's why they do it, and exactly what the government, including its EBS, is employed to protect against.
So you were "concerned" in Columbus. Millions of New Yorkers were terrorized in an aerial attack causing mayhem that lasted all day.
'Nuff said. Except the huge amount of "Homeland Security" money you and your matchlessly corrupt state collected the past 5 years, without being a "target". Where did you get that idea from, anyway? That's not even paranoid, just selfserving fearmongering combined with complacency. While you call New Yorkers, already the damaged targets of these attacks twice, "paranoid".
--
make install -not war
Q. Why did the chicken cross the road?
A. I, for one, welcome our "new" overdone chicken joke overlords.
Give it a rest and make up some new material already. God forbid anybody actually make any kind of attempt at NEW humor. That "overlord" joke is done in just about every thread. Once you hear the one about how the blond turns the light on after sex 1000 times it doesn't even deserve a grin any more.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
You have Google, don't you? It's been in the news for quite some time. What cave are you living in?
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
... while the aircrafts are just half way through.
Toaplan?
Millions of people in New York were inconvenienced, not terrorized. How really different for most people was the immediate after affects of 9/11 compared to the most recent major power outage? Take the WTC buildings out of the equation, and not a whole lot different.
The brilliance of the 9/11 attacks was the plane attacks. No one in our civilized world was able to conceive of that mode of attack, due to our own civilities, etc. Of course, we're aware now.
Besides, every time an oil refinery or chemical plant pops a cork, thousands of people are exposed to some far nastier shit than came out of the WTC dust. One could argue that the downwinders live with it every day.
Get over yourself. 9/11 was bad, but it wasn't THAT bad.
Three thousand people dead. Toxic smoke inhaled by tens of millions for weeks. Hundreds of people jumping from the top of the burning towers to die in the fall rather than burn to death. While their families and everyone else watched in horror.
"Take the WTC buildings out of the equation"? What could possibly justify that derangement of reality?
You should come here to NYC some time and I'll explain it to you much more persuasively than your demented insensitivity allows you safely across the Internet. I'm sure the fear that is the only way a human could dismiss the horror of the actual 9/11/2001 attacks will also keep you safely in your bubble, far away from the reality of NYC.
--
make install -not war
Or they should sit down and think about what a bad idea it was to buy a piece of equipment that doesn't come with a guarantee that its RF signal's frequency will not be legally used by anyone for powerful signals.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The Sidewinder is an air-to-air missile, to silence a source of interference they'd use a HARM.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Someone should be suggesting the keypads to the affected folks. Except that those keypads typically use the same radio frequency as a remote garage door opener, and really are nothing more than glorified remote openers.
The ones I've seen were mounted in the doorjam- I always assumed they were through-hole wired?
Telling people to "just google it" smacks of intellectual laziness. It raises suspicions with regard to the veracity of the claim.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Really, what were you thinking - or smoking - when you wrote that?
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
Trafic is about cooperation and collaboration. It's not your business if people is breaking the law, because you still have to give them way if you're in the left lane and they want to pass you. If by passing you, they are breaking the law, they have a problem with the authorities, not with you. Faster vehicles have the right for the left lane, that's the spirit of law. If you are not passing someone, stick to a lane more to your right and let the trafic flow.
Your ad could be here!
I had to install one on my garage a few summers ago. Some wired ones do exist but are much more expensive than your typical base model, which runs off of RF and you program to match your particular model. I used to think the same thing too, and that was the main reason I dreaded the project so much, but once I realized that most were RF based I breathed a huge sigh of relief.
So are most entrances. The second-to-right lane is the place to be if you don't want to kill people in horrible merging accidents, or at the very least want to save yourself the trouble of worrying about them.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
And that gets you stuck behind a semi with no visibility and driving 10 below the limit for passenger vehicles.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Actually, this was used as a psychological warfare tactic against Iraq in both wars.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Except, of course, for Tom Clancy, anybody who read Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor, numerous CIA analysts who predicted that mode of attack, numerous CIA analysts who reviewed captured al-Qaeda plans for such an attack, and any student of World War II in the Pacific.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
"Mayhem that lasted all day."
Was there rioting? Looting? A complete breakdown in public services? Were people evacuated from the city and relocated to neighboring states? Why don't you tell the people of Los Angeles or New Orleans how bad you had it.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
"Habeas corpus was abolished and the US is wiretapping all our phones" is old news, just like "New Orleans was almost destroyed by a hurricane a couple years back". If you don't know about something that was widely publicized, even on Slashdot, the onus is on you to educate yourself.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
You think this is a competition? You want to turn this into some kind of intramural sport, or think that this is some kind of whining?
FYI, I lived in New Orleans until 2003, and personally handled the evacuation of an entire family from the Katrina Flood. I was back in NO before even a fraction had moved back, working on reconstruction. And have been back several times.
What the hell have you done to help? Where were you during the various catastrophes in LA/NO/NYC/DC? What the hell makes you think you have anything to say about mayhem? You saw something on TV, and think you know what you're talking about?
You obviously don't. Keep your gibberish to yourself when there are serious issues for people with some actual perspective to discuss. Or try telling your crap to my neighbors in NYC, like the firehouse in my block. This is like some kind of videogame to you, isn't it?
--
make install -not war
I think you're trying to claim that because you were in New York at the time of the attack, your personal judgment of the situation should outweigh the actual evidence. Within the past six years, we've had an entire city almost destroyed by hurricane, an entire ocean coastline devastated by tsunami, a nation the size of California impoverished by two foreign invasions, a decade of economic sanctions, and an ongoing civil war, an ongoing genocide, an ongoing intifada, and countless wars. You, sir, do not know the meaning of the word "mayhem". Getting the rest of the day off from work does not compare with what millions of people have gone through, whether because of natural disaster or because of self-righteous pricks like you.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
No, I'm saying that you're a braying jackass who's calling 3000 people killed, millions terrorized and breathing toxic smoke, and other mayhem "a day off from work".
And you're dragging out any number of other scenes of mayhem to justify your total inaction except to downplay that disaster.
Don't call me "sir", you hypocritical cunt. You have done nothing to help anyone with anything, and have said the kinds of stupid shit that get people beat to a pulp here in NYC, if they're insane enough to try saying it. But you will do it again, safely removed at the end of your Internet wire from any consequences.
I'll call you out again on my question of what the hell you have ever done to help any of those disasters, that makes you think you can rattle them off to minimize the damage of one of them. What have you done, other than type bullshit at me?
Before you reply with more asinine trash, go do something useful for at least one of the catastrophes you're invoking as if you have any right to their pain. While I have lived through several of those disasters personally, as have my friends and family, and done other personal actions to help mitigate most of the others you think you can itemize as if you have anything to do with them.
Then don't bother replying. You have nothing to teach anyone about selfrighteousness except a bad example of it.
Vile scumbag. You're beneath contempt. You won't even get any more of that from me. Abandonment to your own corrosive delusion is all you deserve.
--
make install -not war
So New Yorkers are short-tempered people who leap to violence as their first response to perceived sacrilege? And you're surprised I'm not falling all over myself to feel sorry for you pricks? You've threatened violence before. I think you have enough information on me that you could track me down and physically harm me, if you wanted to. Until you do that, you're no less a coward as I am, sir.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
Speaking of which, as I understand it* garage doors just send a small 8bit signal as the code to open or close. Couldn't this be trivially brute forced in a matter of seconds? We're talking 64 possible codes here.. And if you can brute force it, couldn't you also severely amp up the power with a high gain antenna and start causing serious havoc in some neighborhoods? Bonus points if rigged to a timer and hidden somewhere that can't be traced back to you.
*: My understanding of this is based entirely on merely seeing the insides of a garage door opener once when I was about 14.
Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
There's a little piece of paper that comes with every piece of electronic equipment that says that by using that particular device, you understand that you must accept any interference that is generated that may cause the device to operate incorrectly. This would include these interferences. Most people throw that piece of paper away without thinking anything about it, and then raise cain when their nifty new toy doesn't work right.
Have you seen the Wall Street Journal in the past 4 years?
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
So I take it that means that you DON'T have any proof?
I guess kids just aren't joining debate clubs like they used to.. it's kind of a shame.
So I take it that means that you DON'T have any proof to back up a single one of those assertions? If you do, I'd be more than glad to take a look at it, but I have no idea what you're talking about until then.
Well, if you're incapable of reading the Wall Street Journal and drawing your own conclusions, it's not my problem.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Man, do you realize how pathetic that sounds? I find it amusing that I put up a post asking for evidence, and every person that has responded has been like "WHAT AN IDIOT! CAN'T YOU SEE IT ALL AROUND YOU!" etc etc.
Fortunately, that's the good thing about evidence--it means something, rather than rabid lunatic claims that can't be supported by anything other delusional fancy.
I'm going on the record claiming that there are little green men ALL around us, and if you make claims to the contrary, well OPEN UP YOUR EYES MAN, the evidence is all around you.
A powerful case could be made that the government should give that spectrum up to garage door owners, because they get more public use out of it.
A powerful case could be made that if they don't they'll have fewer diabetes mellitus cases to treat on Medicare's dime in a couple decades.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Have you ever seen a turkey cooked by a high power radio transmitter? The Air Force is far more of a health risk!
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
I suppose if I made SPECIFIC CLAIMS OR CHARGES, providing evidence would be my burden, sure.
However, such a broad, sweeping generalized comment, as I made, doesn't lend itself to an enumeration of the charges and evidence, does it?
No.
So I wonder what you agenda is, to miscast my comment as a more specific claim? Are you working off of prepared talking points and didn't BOTHER to actually think if they were applicable to my statements? It would seem not.
But hey, you're on a roll, and the actual facts don't really matter, do they?
If you want claims and evidence, although this is off topic, take a read through Elizabeth de la Vegas hypothetical indictment of Bush et. al.: http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=143205
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Have you ever seen a turkey cooked by a high power radio transmitter?
Heh, no, though that might be the solution for getting a turducken cooked evenly through.
I have heard about the pigeons on Telegraph Hill in Holmdel, NJ (near where I grew up) that got cooked by similar. Lore has it that inspired the microwave oven.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Actually, you didn't at all make a broad, sweeping, or generalized comment. If you feel that I missed your sweeping broad whatever comment, please show it to me, because I can't find it.. In case you forgot what you said, here it is:
Your first statement:
"Well, after 9/11 we ARE all under constant surveillance of all our phone and internet traffic,"
Your claim: After 9/11 (and ergo, not before) everyone (assumed in the US) is under constant survillenace of all our phone and internet traffic.
I'm looking for any evidence to back this up. This is a very straightforward claim, and has nothing to do with the Iraq war, foreign policy, etc. I scanned the link you sent and saw nothing relevant to what you posted. So, let's see the evidence.
Your second claim:
"and we've lost the right to a Writ of Habeas Corpus."
Again, let's see the evidence. Your link didn't include any discussion of habeas corpus. This is a very straightforward and SPECIFIC claim, let's see the evidence.
"Sounds to me like it's been pretty damn convenient for SOME folks and their companies."
I'm not really sure where this came from, but it sounds like you're claiming that this alleged increase of online surveillance and the alleged suspension of habeas corpus is assumed to be convenient for some folks and their companies? Who exactly?
I'm also baffled by your statement on "talking points" -- what "talking points" did i use? I'm not sure you understand what talking points are, because saying "can I see the facts behind your statement" is NOT a talking point.
You then say that (to me?) the "actual facts don't really matter" -- but that's exactly what I'm asking for, I'm asking for facts, and you've so far been totally unable to provide them.
"I'm looking for any evidence to back this up. This is a very straightforward claim, and has nothing to do with the Iraq war, foreign policy, etc. I scanned the link you sent and saw nothing relevant to what you posted. So, let's see the evidence."
Go read the documents in EFF v. AT&T.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Let me get this straight--you cherry pick one of your three claims (I assume that means you are conceding your other ludicrous statements?) and use as your primary evidence a dismissed court case that never made it to trial--mere allegations? The program that amongst many others, Democrat Lanny Davis praised for its impressive safeguards and the length the program went to protect privacy.
I'm curious what exactly YOU know about any NSA program that the Privacy and Civil Liberties Board doesn't?
As a side note, it's always fascinating to me when people who claim to believe in innocence before being proved guilty will go to any length and any amount of spurious evidence to "convict" those who disagree with them.
Weren't you the one who asked for documentation of domestic spying?
So I told you to go read the documentation for EFF v. AT&T.
When you've completed the homework you asked for, we can continue with your trolling.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
You think an untried, dismissed allegation is evidence?
Well if you believe that people should be tried according to those rules, then I guess that's why you would portray me, asking for facts, as a troll.
When was EFF v. AT&T Dismissed?
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
... will be very very happy to sell you another one.
What else can you do? Stop using the door?
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.
I'll prove it as soon as you prove to me that Hurricane Katrina happened. Until then, you're missing the point.
In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
If you're talking about Hepting v. AT&T you're correct.
Something more recent than the July 20th decision by the judge to let the case move forward?
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
No--you're correct, I was thinking of a different case.
reassuring to see the case grind through the cogs of justice?