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Federal Panel [not NIST] Rejects Paper Trail For E-Voting

emil10001 writes "The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has rejected a proposal suggesting that electronic voting have a paper trail. The draft recommendation was developed by NIST scientists, who called out electronic voting machines as being 'impossible' to secure." From the article: "Committee member Brit Williams, who opposed the measure, said, 'You are talking about basically a reinstallation of the entire voting system hardware.' The proposal failed to obtain the 8 of 15 votes needed to pass. Five states — Delaware, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland and South Carolina — use machines without a paper record exclusively. Eleven states and the District either use them in some jurisdictions or allow voters to chose whether to use them or some other voting system." So ... accountability in voting will be a joke for the foreseeable future because it costs too much?
Update: 12/11 03:20 GMT by KD : Correction: It was not NIST that rejected NIST's recommendations, it was a federal panel chartered by Congress, the Technical Guidelines Development Committee.

191 comments

  1. First p by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hey! Where did the rest of my subject line go?? It was there! I typed an'o', an 's', and a 't'! These dang computers are so insecure. I want a paper trail of my postings.

    1. Re:First p by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      When control of the richest and most powerful country on Earth depends on your Slashdot postings ... let us know.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:First p by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 4, Funny

      Posting on slashdot probably has more effect than voting.

  2. In short... Yes .. and ... no by zappepcs · · Score: 1

    So ... accountability in voting will be a joke for the foreseeable future because it costs too much? Yes, its expensive and will remain a joke, not because its expensive, but because politicians want it to be expensive to fix the joke that helps them win elections....

    1. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by jfengel · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The administration in power just suffered an enormous loss of power, with these machines already in place. Many of those elections were close enough to tip with only a tiny, hard-to-detect cheat, and the Republicans needed only a single change in the Senate to keep power there.

      Are you saying that they're waiting for something REALLY important to come along before they unleash the their cheats?

      I do think we need better accountability in elections, because it's terrible that we can't be certain in the country that's supposed to be the leader in democracy. I want to know why NIST is overriding the opinions of its own experts. But to claim that they want the status quo only to win elections is belied by the fact that they're NOT winning elections.

    2. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      [sarcasm]They cheated alright, but due to a bug with a misplaced decimal or something ("I always do that") they found that they had $300 grand more than planned and thew Dems got the votes.[/sarcasm]

      realistically though if you were to cheat you would want it to me hard to detect, maybe if they did the algorithm just needs more tweaking? :-)

      I dunno, I simply hope for the big backlash to put indys in office. I bet if Ross Perot ran now he'd take it by a landslide.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    3. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by Thansal · · Score: 1

      Well, obviously the republicans did cheat, just they did not cheat enough! the voter gap was so large infavor of the Dems that those evil repubs lost even AFTER adding lots and lots of extra votes!

      Or, if you are a republican:

      Well, it is obvious that the dirty dems riged the vote this time around! They stole the election! And we all know that the dems ALWAYS rig elections (*point back to past casses of votter coersion*).

      heh, pardon me, just felt like it :D

      As for why I think they voted it down?
      They don't really get it, whomever explained it to them told them that the money involved in replacing the machines was far to high for a minimal risk, etc etc. I expect incompetince, not maliciousnes

      --
      Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.
    4. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Are you saying that they're waiting for something REALLY important to come along before they unleash their cheats?"

      No. Only that the 3% bias applied as widely as possible wasn't enough. A 3% pad will only make a race that's really 53.5/46.5 look close. None of the Republicans contested close losses. They couldn't afford to because the bias would have been found. Karl Rove mis-under-estimated the necessary bias when he did "The Math".

    5. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Committee member Brit Williams, who opposed the measure, said, 'You are talking about basically a reinstallation of the entire voting system hardware.'

      You know, if each American who reads slashdot went out and smashed just ONE voting machine each with a sledgehammer, this entire argument would be a moot point.

      I do think we need better accountability in elections, because it's terrible that we can't be certain in the country that's supposed to be the leader in democracy.

      Is this a joke? America has replaced more democratic leaders with puppet dictators than Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia put together, and their own democracy looks more and more like a trick of the light with each passing day.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    6. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by Ucklak · · Score: 1

      Republicans use virtual votes to win.
      Democrats use dead votes to win.

      We still all lose.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    7. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by killjoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What makes you think they didn't cheat? It could very well be that they rigged to throw one out of ten thousand votes to go republican but it wasn't enough.

      I am not saying that they did that, I am saying that just because they won it doesn't mean they didn't cheat. It could mean they didn't cheat enough and maybe next time they will.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    8. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It already is expensive. When buying votes at $25 per, you can easily see how the costs can go way up. :)

    9. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by shenanigans · · Score: 1

      Regardless, whether or not anyone did cheat is not even the question. The fact that someone COULD cheat (and easily too) should be enough to do something about it.

      BTW, Brit Williams seems to be deep inside the voting industry already, see eg. here. He has also helped "certify" Diebold equipment in the past, according to this.

    10. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they're smart enough to know the shit is about to hit the fan (Iraq, economy, etc) and want the Dems in power when the shit hits the fan so the Dems take the blame and people rush to the Republicans to fix the mess the Democrats created?

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    11. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by spisska · · Score: 1

      There are a number of problems with paper trails besides their cost.

      1) The paper record is a roll that records votes sequentially. This can potentially compromise the secrecy of the ballot.

      2) The printer itself malfunctions -- the paper jams, ink runs out, paper runs out, paper is damaged or destroyed while advancing, etc. This would be especially problematic in jurisdictions where the paper trail is the ballot of record -- i.e. any disputes or recounts have to be based on the paper rather than the electronic results. If the paper was unreadable, a dispute would be impossible to resolve legally.

      3) The paper record is read differently by a human and by a machine -- the human reads the alphanumeric printout while a machine reads a barcode. As long as humans can't read barcode, each ballot would have to be checked by both human and machine to make sure the two records are identical.

      4) According to Federal law, all records and materials from an election have to be kept by the states for 22 months. But most paper-trail printers use thermal paper on which printing degrades after a few months even in normal conditions. If exposed to excessive heat or temperature swings, the paper can be rendered completely unreadable in a very short time.

      The problem with electronic machines isn't that they have or don't have paper trails. The problem is the machines themselves. Paper trails are not a solution to the problem of badly designed, ridiculously expensive, and completely uneccessary electronic voting machines. Just as inherently flawed electronic machines are not a solution to the problem of poorly designed ballots, which is the problem of Florida 2000 that DREs were meant to solve in the first place.

    12. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by raehl · · Score: 1

      From the article:

      'You are talking about basically a reinstallation of the entire voting system hardware.'

      This illustrates the problem with these people. They view the paperless machines as voting machines that need to be reinstalled. They are not voting machines at all. The recommendation is talking about the original installation of voting system hardware where none currently exist.

      This is like saying you shouldn't buy a new computer because you'd basically be reinstalling your television.

      You know, if each American who reads slashdot went out and smashed just ONE voting machine each with a sledgehammer, this entire argument would be a moot point.

      Why would we want to break perfectly good voting machines? The voting machines are fine. It's the FAKE voting machines that we need to smash.

    13. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      Alternative hypothesis: they're waiting for the spotlight to move away from e-voting machines so they won't get caught.

    14. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by ChrisK87 · · Score: 1

      Silly goose. The whole idea of the paper copy is that they can be recounted manually in disputed elections, there's no need for barcodes. And yes voting machines can solve clarity issues -- for the touchscreen ones you literally poke the name of the candidate you want, with none of this butterfly ballot which-hole-do-I-poke-with-my-stylus? issue. And I don't buy this paper issues argument either. The paper copy has to print out in front of you to be verifyable by the voter, so I think they'd notice ballot mangling and crazy ink issues. And I think receipt-printing technology has been pretty well perfected by walmart.

    15. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by cHiphead · · Score: 1

      Democrats use dead votes to win.

      Only in Chicago. And you dont ask questions. Daley is the kingXXXX mayor, just deal with it. ;)

      Cheers.

      --

      This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    16. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by spisska · · Score: 1

      Manual recount doesn't mean that you don't use machines. And ballot printers do print barcodes.

      As far as the butterfly ballot issue goes -- this is a $0.10 problem with a $0.10 solution. Design ballots that aren't confusing. Go for optical scan machines rather than punch-card machines (which have been know to be problematic for decades). Substituting a DRE machine in this case is a $3,000 solution to a $0.10 problem.

      Paper can be mangled out of sight of the voter. You may not buy it, but it's happened, most recently in Chicago which does treat the printout as the ballot of record. Fortunately there were no races close enough for this to be a factor.

    17. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Could be. That's giving them credit for longer-term thinking than I'm used to, what with the whole cake-walk war thing.

    18. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by trianglman · · Score: 1

      Two things:
      1) Like others have said, maybe they didn't cheat enough. Don't know if this is true or not and probably never will, since none of the losers of close races (PA, VA, MO, etc.) are calling for recounts.

      2) The states with 100% paper free voting machines were never close. "Delaware, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland and South Carolina"

      --
      Clones are people two.
    19. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by maximthemagnificent · · Score: 1

      >You know, if each American who reads slashdot went out and smashed just ONE voting machine each with a sledgehammer, this entire argument would be a moot point.

      Think I can get the internet in prison?

    20. Re:In short... Yes .. and ... no by kcarlin · · Score: 1

      In Virginia, that last Senate race that tipped controlled hinged on votes cast in populous Fairfax County, a Washington, DC suburb and a pure digital jurisdiction where there is zero risk of detecting fraud. Counting for Fairfax didn't conclude until it was obvious just how many votes would be needed to switch the result. Pretty slow for an all digital county. I'm not saying the election (and the US Senate) was stolen in Fairfax, I'm saying that, it being an all-digital county, we will never know.

      --
      Free Adam Smith! (Or best offer.)
  3. This is why I don't vote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    ...besides the fact that all the candidates suck, but I did vote AGAINST Bush last time.

    1. Re:This is why I don't vote... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Really you think so? That's only what the machine told you.

  4. Great quote by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "You are talking about basically a reinstallation of the entire voting system hardware."

    Um ... yeah, like the switch from paper ballots and/or mechanical voting machines to electronic voting machines in the first place?

    Stupidest. Excuse. For. Shilling. For. The. Forces. Of. Evil. EVER.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    1. Re:Great quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even if it's not schilling for the forces of evil, it is unwise to admit to an error in judgement and simultaneously claim that it would be too costly to repair your error after the fact.

    2. Re:Great quote by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Tell Brit Williams how you feel. His email is on that page.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Great quote by Intron · · Score: 1

      That would be a very curt schilling.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    4. Re:Great quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh no! We're going to have to replace all of the voting machines AGAIN!
      Boo-fucking-hoo!

      You know what they say: anything worth doing is worth doing twice.

    5. Re:Great quote by cptgrudge · · Score: 1

      Yep, all bad excuses.

      We're spending 1.6 billion a week on a war that will purportedly make us safer. (Irrelevant for our argument here whether it does or not.) But we won't spend several billion to ensure that one of the cornerstones of our democratic system of government, the voting process, is reasonably secure and verifiable?

      Wonderful. Just peachy.

      --
      Qualitas edurus commercium, nullus penitus net rimor, nullus deus beneficium
    6. Re:Great quote by Mex · · Score: 1

      It's not unwise, admitting you were wrong is wise.

      The problem is... It's *politically* unwise.

  5. It shouldn't only be about cost. by Kookus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So what if there's a paper trail? It means absolutely nothing unless it's actually used, and is accessible by the people casting the votes! This is something that is wrong with the current system also!

    I have no idea who I voted for in any election. I know who I thought I voted for, but I have no idea if it was counted that way. Where can I go to find that out? Let's say there is some way for me to determine if my vote was counted in a certain way. What about everyone else? Is there a way to make sure the vote they think was mine was exclusively mine?

    I'd rather have the problems associated with receipts with ids on them that I can log online to see who I voted for instead of the current system.

    1. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      So what if there's a paper trail? It means absolutely nothing unless it's actually used, and is accessible by the people casting the votes! This is something that is wrong with the current system also!
       
      I have no idea who I voted for in any election. I know who I thought I voted for, but I have no idea if it was counted that way. Where can I go to find that out? Let's say there is some way for me to determine if my vote was counted in a certain way. What about everyone else? Is there a way to make sure the vote they think was mine was exclusively mine?
       
      I'd rather have the problems associated with receipts with ids on them that I can log online to see who I voted for instead of the current system. That would alloc coercion and vote buying.
      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    2. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There are three problems with logging online to see who you voted for:
      1. You could sell your vote, and use the website to verify it to the purchaser.
      2. Your boss or someone else could intimidate you into voting a certain way, and you would keep your job by showing your boss how you voted on the website
      3. The fact that you cast a ballot and your receipt number shows a certain vote on a website may have nothing at all to do with the official tally.
      See this post for my solution..
      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    3. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Kookus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What's a commercial? Why do the big race politicians spend millions of dollars (They sure aren't doing it to get their "message" out)?

      You gotta be kidding me if you think they aren't already buying votes.

      Let them attempt to buy elections, make it illegal, put out "honeypots", catch the rats and disqualify them from the race! Even if they could directly buy votes, think of how much money you'd need to spend just to sway an election... and there's no way you could do that without getting caught.

      I sure hope someone's vote is worth more then a buck. Personally I wouldn't sell mine for less then a grand. Go ahead, buy the indigent! Hell, at least they'd actually improve their meals for a day, which is the best thing those politicians will ever do for them anyways... How sad is that?

    4. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 0, Troll

      Let's say there is some way for me to determine if my vote was counted in a certain way.

      Then you're an idiot. It isn't even worth responding to this because you obviously haven't spent any time looking into the subject.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    5. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between a political advertisement and saying "If you vote for X and can prove to me that you did, I'll give you $n"

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    6. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Kookus · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'd rather be ignorant on a subject then a complete asshole like you.

    7. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by yankpop · · Score: 1

      It is used. Whenever there's a recount.

      No, you can't link an individual ballot to a particular individual. That's a feature, not a bug. If you could identify individuals you would enable coercion before the election and reprisals afterwards, hardly favourable conditions for a democratic society.

      But while you can't follow your particular ballot through the system, you can do that as a group. If 100 people vote at your polling station and more or less than 100 votes are tallied then there has been some tampering. It is possible that someone could go in and switch ballots, but not without the cooperation of the staff and observers from all the parties contesting the election.

      A paper trail provides a means to verify an election. It's not foolproof, but it is definitely better than nothing, which is what you've got in 5 states already.

      yp.

    8. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." - Mark Twain

      "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain

      So, the next question is, are the willfully ignorant worse than those who have tired of dealing with them?

      Or, to put it another way. Voting, and the pitfalls inherent in it is a very old topic with lots of information available, and examples to show the pitfalls in practice. Perhaps you should read up on the topic, rather than regurgitating one bad idea or another and causing all the living defenders of freedom to pull out their hair in frustration while the dead defenders of freedom roll over in their graves.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    9. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by dwandy · · Score: 1
      Check Three Ballot Voting System (PDF Warning).

      It's a paper-based voting system that allows you to verify that your vote was cast but doesn't allow you to prove how you voted.
      In general terms you vote twice for guy you want, and once for the guy you don't want, leaving your guy +1 over the other. You then are allowed to take a copy (at random) of one the three ballots to walk out with. It has a serial number that is no way related to the other ballots. You use the serial number to check that at least 1/3 of your vote was cast correctly at some later date by checking a bullitin board.

      After that it's just a probability game - it wouldn't take that many people to check before it became highly probable that if there was a problem it would be noted.

      --
      If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
    10. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Kookus · · Score: 1

      Being informed about why you vote is completely different then just wanting your vote to count the way you cast it. Show me the light ye defender of freedom! Comfort me in the knowledge and abilities that I have to confirm my vote was recorded and used in the manner which I intended!

    11. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      That's a good solution to the problems of vote-selling and voter intimidation, but again, the acts of casting a ballot and verifying it later on a website or by any other method *may not* have any bearing on the actual official tally. You can have all the three-ballot voting and online verification you want, but if the machines verify ballots correctly online but decide to ignore those verified ballots when it comes time to report the tally, you can have a stolen election.

      If you have a paper trail, that's good, but if there's no reason to question the official machine-reported tally, there's no reason to start counting the paper trail. Right now, I think the only evidence we would have to distrust the official tally (partisanship aside) are discrepancies between exit polls and the official results, but nobody trusts exit polls :(

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    12. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Kookus · · Score: 1

      If you're worried about coercion, you just make the system allow for the reporting of false information.
      You log in, you setup an account that has an id associated with it, you vote. You can then verify you voted the way you want.

      Need to convince someone you voted in a particular fashion? The system allows you to set up another id that is associated with your account, you fill in your vote the way you want to... it produces a report that shows you voted that way when you log in with that id.

      No mechanisms for figuring out how many ids are associated with an account (besides those who have the data itself), no mechanism for verifying that someone gave you the id that was actually used in the final counts.

      What use is coercion when the people you try to coerce have the ability to make it appear they did what you want?

    13. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by |/|/||| · · Score: 1
      You're exactly right. What we should have is a system where all of the polling data is made publicly accessible, and the voter can compare the ID from their "voting reciept" to the data and see that their vote was tallied correctly.

      If it's not, they should be able to pull up a scanned image of their ballot printout, which they reviewed after it printed from the voting machine and before it was dropped into the box.

      Granted, it might be difficult to prove that your vote was tampered with if it has been, but at least you would know.

      --
      [javac] 100 errors
    14. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by yankpop · · Score: 1

      No mechanisms for figuring out how many ids are associated with an account... no mechanism for verifying that someone gave you the id that was actually used in the final counts.

      ...and no mechanism for verifying that the vote you entered was counted correctly, which is what started this discussion. A paper trail is critical, regardless.

      yp

    15. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by orielbean · · Score: 1

      The balance here is having a ballot where you can't be identified. Think of a dictator or rebel group seizing the voting records to off the opposition supporters. That's one of the reason we have the anonymous voting in the first place. On the flip side, you can never be certain of how your vote was counted, unless you got a unique id to the paper slip and could check online, similar to a UPS tracking number. That could still be done and keep your name off the vote.

    16. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should read up on the topic, rather than regurgitating one bad idea or another

      It's worse than that: it's a bunch of people pulling out the same bad idea and then getting all huffy when you tell them to go read a book. It's like the Creationists all over again.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    17. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by spitzak · · Score: 1

      Though the vote buying/intimidation problems are true, your third point is wrong. If the website actually lists *all* the votes, then you can add them up and confirm whether they match the reported tally or not.

    18. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Chapter80 · · Score: 1
      I disagree that a paper trail is necessary.

      I'd prefer a published file that had all the ballots in voter-readable form.

      Imagine a website that you could go to (either at the polls, or at home after the election) where you could key in your super-secret code and verify your vote. Imagine a series of PDF's auto-generated (or even more compact and readable than that). Imagine being able to pull up every ballot in your precinct, and being able to verify the ballots against the precinct totals to see how your precinct contributed to the State totals.

      In my opinion this would be far more valuable than paper, which may be counted by the same (potentially corrupt) individuals as those who are manning the voting machines. Total transparency. Let the PEOPLE verify the results!

      Maybe we could turn to AOL to learn how (not) to "anonomize" all the ballots.

    19. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK. You go home and you verify your vote on the web...and the verification site log the IP address you're using to verify from, and they call your ISP and get your name from the records, and it's no longer a secret ballot.

      Next theory, please?

    20. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Chapter80 · · Score: 1

      The point is that you can verify EVERY vote, not just your own. RTFP.

    21. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      No, the third point is dead-on. That's why it's so insidious; it's not obvious.

      Sure, the website will list all of the 'votes', and they will match with the tally. However, you don't know that *any* of those votes are valid. At most, you can only verify one, and that is your own. In order to double-check that any vote is correct, you would have to have someone say "Yup, that's who I voted for". And then, in order to count the whole election, you would have to have everyone confirm their vote to you.

      If you are a random person perusing the votes, attempting to tally them, you have no way of knowing whether or not the ballots you are looking at are legitimate ballots. All of the ballots you are looking at could be entirely fictitious. Even if a lot of people say "Yeah, I verified my vote, it's on there", the only way to really know that other people's ballots are being counted is to ask them how they voted and look for that ballot. And that's assuming that everyone is going to have a unique vote -- which they won't.

      The only thing you can know for certain is that the website has recorded *your* ballot correctly. You have no way of knowing if your ballot is affecting the tally. You have no way of verifying any other ballot that the website is reporting to you. Your ballot might be correct, but all of the others might be totally fraudulent. If you're not a voter, but just an anonymous tallier, you have no way of verifying *any* of the votes that the website is reporting to you.

      The only way to double-check the official tally is to have people who have verified their voters tell other people who they voted for -- and then you've blown the secret ballot.

      If the safety mechanism is that you verify your vote, then look for it in the tally, what happens when you don't find it? In order to do any kind checking into it, you would have to have people say "I couldn't find my vote", and then the question would be "tell us who you voted for so we can make sure that it's not there", and there goes the secret ballot. The whole election is blown and people have to say who they voted for.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    22. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by yakovlev · · Score: 1

      Or more importantly: "If you don't vote for X, and prove it to me, I'll kill your family."

    23. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by paeanblack · · Score: 1

      Imagine a website that you could go to (either at the polls, or at home after the election) where you could key in your super-secret code and verify your vote.

      Until your union manager wants your "super-secret code" to make sure you're "part of the family". It doesn't seem right, but you have a stable paycheck and kids to feed. Someone else can rock the boat...

    24. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Missed the part about researching it, didn't you? The answers you're looking for are out there. Now use whatever intelligence you have at your disposal and discover it. I'm sure wikipedia will have an entry on the history of voting, and googling "vote history", "vote fraud", and "secret ballot" should get you started. Now go write your grade 10 social studies report and stop bothering those of us who remember the last time this argument was brought up. And yes, it was within the last two weeks.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    25. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Sadly, far too many of them are of an age to vote. No wonder we end up with chimps like Blair and Bush in office.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    26. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Chapter80 · · Score: 1
      Give him any super-secret code you want! They're all public. The ballots are public... go pick out a ballot that will make your union manager happy. The only thing that links you to your ballot is the code that you have. If you want to pick out a different one for purposes of "fooling" someone who illegally demands to see your vote - have at it!

      Ballot 1 voted: Smith for president
      Ballot 2 voted: Jones for president

      If you know your code was 1, but you want to tell someone that yours was 2, how hard is that?

      Why doens't anyone get this? Make the ballots public info.

    27. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by DudeTheMath · · Score: 1

      [N]obody trusts exit polls :(

      Actually, from 1956 to 2000, exit polls were getting better and better. Since then, exit polls have been skewing more Dem than the actual vote count. Sorry, I don't have a study to refer you to, but Robt Kennedy Jr's recent pieces in Rolling Stone has them.

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    28. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Hey, *I* trust them, and they are good enough to challenge election results around the world, but the Faux News public knows that those pollsters are deliberately asking mostly liberals how they voted.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    29. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by spitzak · · Score: 1

      If somebody wanted to fix the election by changing the recorded votes, though they might not change *your* vote, the odds that they select only votes that nobody checks is astronomically low thus making undetectable fixing impossible. Though nobody could prove their vote was wrong, large numbers of people complaining should indicate that something is wrong and the election investigated or re-run.

      The only method of fixing the election is to add extra fake votes, but this would result in a larger total number of voters and should be detectable. They would have to invent fake voter id numbers as well, it may also help to try to keep the algorithim used to produce these as secret and one-way as possible.

      Any such scheme means voter anoniminity is impossible, which is why it cannot be used. If it were not for this one huge problem, it would be a solution.

    30. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      "If somebody wanted to fix the election by changing the recorded votes, though they might not change *your* vote, the odds that they select only votes that nobody checks is astronomically low thus making undetectable fixing impossible."

      The point that you're missing is the only vote that you can check is your own. In order to check any other vote that you'd be counting, you'd have to confirm with that voter that they actually voted that way. And if you're not a voter, but just checking, you can't check *any* vote. The only way to verify a vote other than your own is to say "Hey, is this really how you voted?" So the odds are about 100% that the votes they change are ones that you can't check.

      "The only method of fixing the election is to add extra fake votes..."

      Not true. You can fix an election by not counting verified votes in the official tally.

      You can verify your vote all you want, but you have no way of knowing that your vote is actually counted in the tally, unless you can specifically correlate a ballot in the public tally with your id. There are probably dozens, if not hundreds, of people who voted the exact same way you did. If you were naive, you might verify your vote, and then look for a ballot exactly like it in the tally. There are probably several, so you think that your vote is counted -- but it isn't. You are looking at the votes of other people, who voted the same way you did. Your vote isn't in the tally, and neither are several other people's who voted the same way.

      If there were a block of 50 people who voted exactly the same, the machine might only count 25. Maybe 40 people bother to verify their vote. They are all looking at the same 25 identical ballots, each thinking that one of them is theirs. But for 15 of those 40 verifiers, there vote isn't actually in the tally. The only way to know that your voted is being counted in the public tally is if you can match a verified vote to your id -- and then we have vote selling and voter intimidation.

      The solution to this I propose is a secure tallying system. Voting is basically giving a citizen the power to affect an election by exactly one vote, for each office and issue. This power to affect the election by exactly one vote must remain in the hands of the voter.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    31. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its obvious the 3-ballot guys never worked as election judges. Their system is fabulously complex for anybody other than an MIT grad student. At my polling place this last election we had two 100-year-old ladies cast their ballots. Anybody want to try to explain this to them?

    32. Re:It shouldn't only be about cost. by spitzak · · Score: 1

      I'm assumming the entire list of voterID/vote is published and anybody can look at it. Somebody trying to fix the election MUST change this list in order to change the tally, because anybody who wants to can sum up all the votes on the list and see if they match the tally. If they don't then something is wrong.

      If you change votes or remove votes, it is true that the chance that you change a specific ("your") vote is very small, so it is unlikely one person will catch it. But the chances of changing *somebody's* vote who checks is extremely high, almost a certainty. If the vote fixer changed 10% of the votes, the chances that N checkers will all find their votes correct is .9^N, which gets small very quickly (for 100 checkers it is 2.6e-5).

      Anyway the whole argument is pointless, as your first two points about vote coercion are certainly correct, which is why such a system could never be implemented.

  6. Too Costly? by gt_mattex · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So, disregarding the fact that their own scientists cited the machine's insecurities, the executives feel that the 'cost' of replacing or updating the machines is prohibitive for our countries (arguably) most important decision?

    This whole things reeks of pork and the 'old boys' club'

    --
    "No doubt one may quote history to support any cause, as the devil quotes scripture." - Learned Hand
    1. Re:Too Costly? by rcg40 · · Score: 1
      Voter confidence is not a cost item like which brand of parking meter. It is too expensive to play with. The voting should be done on paper - you "X" your choice or you bubble it in. Then you feed it into a scanner which shows you how it will be cast and points out any over-votes or errors. The you push a button and the paper is added to a stack and the vote is tallied.

      Wait, there's more!!!! At 7 PM, the county draws five precint numbers from a hat and these five precincts must have their paper ballots hand counted in front of witnesses. When these five precincts are validated and their papers agree with the machine count, then we can see the reports from the other precincts.
      The only persons inconvenienced by this are "Bozo and Bozette at 6 and 10". We really should not care if the stinking networks get their stinking stories in on time.

      One other thing is that the scanned ballots can be online for inspection until forever.

    2. Re:Too Costly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The hypocricy makes the mind reel. In an Adminstration that's spending trillions to 'secure democracy' in a foreign country by military force achieving the same goal domestically for a infinitesimal fraction of the cost is too expensive? Your political system is in need of a national enema.

  7. Things have changed in two days by DavidinAla · · Score: 5, Informative

    That news article was from two days ago. Check out what happened since then: http://www.techliberation.com/archives/041383.php

    1. Re:Things have changed in two days by chrisb33 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hmm... what's the relationship of that article to the original article and this one from a few days ago? What exactly are they recommending/rejecting?

    2. Re:Things have changed in two days by grantus · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Hmm... what's the relationship of that article to the original article and this one from a few days ago? What exactly are they recommending/rejecting?"

      The committee essentially reversed itself the next day. The second proposal was worded differently, making it clear that only future e-voting machines would be required to have independent audit mechanisms. The second version also addressed some concerns about accessibility of disabled people to the paper trail mechanisms.

      So, in short, the story posted on slashdot is old and no longer valid.

      Grant

      --
      Grant Gross, Washington reporter, IDG News Service
  8. Bad math or uncounted votes? by mungtor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Members of the Technical Guidelines Development Committee, a group created by Congress to advise the U.S. Election Assistance Commission, deadlocked 6 to 6 on the proposal at a meeting held at the NIST headquarters in Gaithersburg. Eight votes are needed to pass a measure on the 15-member committee."

    How do you deadlock 6 to 6 on a 15 person committee? Were the other 3 votes just not counted?

    1. Re:Bad math or uncounted votes? by onkelonkel · · Score: 4, Funny

      Exit polls show the other 3 members were in favor of the motion, but there was no paper trail to verify this when the votes were recounted.

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    2. Re:Bad math or uncounted votes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh they were counted.

      By a Diebold voting machine.

    3. Re:Bad math or uncounted votes? by master_kaos · · Score: 1
      How do you deadlock 6 to 6 on a 15 person committee? Were the other 3 votes just not counted?
      Well since they have no paper trial, I guess we will never find out
    4. Re:Bad math or uncounted votes? by grantus · · Score: 1

      It's a weird voting situation they have there. The chairman only votes to break a tie, and two other members chose not to vote. There was a tie, but under the committee's rules, it needs eight votes to pass any proposal, so the chairman's vote wouldn't have put the vote over the top, so to speak.

      But as others have pointed out, the committee essentially reserved itself the next day and will require independent audits.

      Grant

      --
      Grant Gross, Washington reporter, IDG News Service
    5. Re:Bad math or uncounted votes? by KORfan · · Score: 1

      Would the committee be willing to revote on this issue using one of those trainless electronic voting machines after we've had our way with it?

  9. The costs shouldn't matter to fix the HAVA mess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And next time we have a top-down federal solution to a supposed problem that dangles a bunch of money with an arbitrary deadline, we should ask ourselves if we are making the problem worse.

    If we need to pay more to fix the problems of HAVA, we need to do it. The fact that we wasted money on new machines without paper trails is not a good argument for the status quo.

  10. Story is out of date! by Philom · · Score: 5, Informative

    This story is badly out of date. The panel voted again the next day and reached a compromise that will require future electronic voting machines to have paper trails. See:

    http://news.com.com/Panel+changes+course%2C+approv es+e-voting+checks/2100-1028_3-6140956.html
    http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=1095

    1. Re:Story is out of date! by emil10001 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's interesting, I submitted the story yesterday at noon, and hadn't seen anything new on it. But reading the update is also quite interesting, because the issue remains that the voting machines which are currently in place, and have no paper trail, will stay there as they are. The proposal that passed leaves it to the "next generation" of machines, and does not seem to affect the ones currently in place. So, this story is still relevant, because those problematic machines are still in place, and will stay there.

  11. Come Again? by Aqua_boy17 · · Score: 1

    The article summary (no, I didn't RTFA) seems to be in direct opposition to a Washington Post article I read today stating that the Technology Guidelines Development Committee wanted to "end the era" of paperless electronic voting and that many politicians wanted to add some form of verification method.

    So who's got the real story and who's just spreading FUD? Inquiring minds want to know.

    --
    What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
    1. Re:Come Again? by grantus · · Score: 1

      As has been said elsewhere here, the posted story is out of date. The committee turned around and approved a proposal requiring independent audits for e-voting machines on Tuesday.

      Grant

      --
      Grant Gross, Washington reporter, IDG News Service
  12. Please don't slam this right away by AchiIIe · · Score: 1

    It is important not to go on the offensive right away on this. The rejection is more likely linked to the logistics associated with the proposal. Everyone takes voting seriously, even Georgians. Local legislation in georgia is about to propose mandating paper trails on the three counties that currently use paperless voting machines. Slow and steady pressure will get the job done, outright slamming will not help.

    --
    Nature journal lied in Britannica vs Wikipedia Ask to retrac
  13. Vote by mail... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    It might be easier to vote by mail instead of having people line up at poll booths. It would take away the intimidation and nuttiness factors of each side having their own lawyers watching to make sure that clueless those chads don't get pregnant.

    1. Re:Vote by mail... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, like Oregon?

    2. Re:Vote by mail... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Sure. I voted by absentee ballot a month before the election. I enjoyed all the political fliers that came through the mail until Election Day. So did my paper shredder.

    3. Re:Vote by mail... by deanoaz · · Score: 1

      I would never vote by mail.

      Your vote does not even get counted in many (most?) jurisdictions unless the vote is very close or the losing candidate demands it. And it may not get counted for lots of other reasons even if it is a close race where your vote might have been very important.

      Mailed ballots have been thrown out, uncounted, by court order in many cases for various reasons. Even before the mailed-in ballot can get past those obstacles there is the very real possibility that it will be intentionally 'lost' by someone in the chain of possession between you and the elections board.

      What better way to steal an election than by 'losing' a bunch of ballots from an area that is historically likely to vote in a particular way? Before a ballot has been received by the elections board and added to the counts of ballots received it can be 'lost' and not raise any red flags.

      Also, when ballots are sent out by mail many of them go astray. People die or move away, etc, yet their ballot is sent to their former address for anyone to use. The opportunities for vote fraud increase with the percentage of ballots being handled by mail.

      Go vote at the polls.

      --
      If 'the people' in Amendment 2 are 'the state' then Amendments 1, 2, 4, 9, and 10 benefit the state, not you.
  14. Not cost by amigabill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So ... accountability in voting will be a joke for the foreseeable future because it costs too much?

    No. Accountability in voting will be a joke because that would be an inconvenience to the Inner Party achieving their goals, whatever those may be. Cost is simply an excuse for the public.

    1. Re:Not cost by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      >> Agreed.

      For instance, the company ChoicePoint, which accidentally threw out 80,000 votes in the 2000 Florida campaign, got paid 10 times more than the group that, by hand, removed 8,000 voters who were actually felons 4 years before.

      The electronic voting machines have costed a LOT MORE than the old punch and hand count method, yet shown to have more "happy accidents for the ruling party."

      If you or I knowingly vote twice -- we can become a felon. But if someone accidentally deprives us and thousands more of our vote -- oops!

      The Electronic Voting has been a lot more expensive -- but mainly due to the cost of loyalty and silence.

      >> Like ending welfare is "about the money, and teaching self-responsibility to the poor" but the Pentagon losing $2.3 Trilion is; "Oops. It could happen to anyone."

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
  15. No price is too high for securing Democracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... except when it's our Democracy.

    Think about it, we spend more in Iraq each month than this proposal would cost, all in the name of "securing democracy". Not only that, it's perfectly clear at this point that the only "freedom" we are providing the Iraqis is the freedom to kill each other and our soldiers.

    How the hell can anyone not support this measure? Or, more appropriately, how are the clowns who don't support it keeping their jobs?

    Oh,

    yeah,

    the easily stealable elections...

    1. Re:No price is too high for securing Democracy! by Detritus · · Score: 1
      How the hell can anyone not support this measure? Or, more appropriately, how are the clowns who don't support it keeping their jobs?

      Well, in Maryland, the clowns are leading members of the Democratic party, who never make mistakes and have jobs for life. They approved the purchase of the flawed Diebold machines, and because they are infallible, there is nothing wrong with the machines.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  16. Wasted money going electronic by kherr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When I voted in the last election my polling place had about a dozen plastic voting booth tables on metal legs and one optical scan reader that instantly verified/tabulated/secured the paper ballot (mis-marked ballots are rejected by the reader). Imagine the costs for that single poll station if there were a dozen complex electronic voting machines instead of the plastic booths. It's also easier to train poll workers how to replace pens and issue new blank ballots than it is to get them to understand complex computing machinery.

    Whether or not you think electronic voting can ever work, from a simple cost-effectiveness standpoint it is an asinine goal to pursue. The purpose was to simplify the voting process, but this has clearly been a failure. Costs have skyrocketed and results are worse than from poorly-maintained punch ballot installations. Now we hear the reason not to abandon this crappy technology is because it would cost too much to return to verified voting. And thus, yet another self-spiraling government system of waste and fraud becomes entrenched.

    1. Re:Wasted money going electronic by gad_zuki! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >Whether or not you think electronic voting can ever work, from a simple cost-effectiveness standpoint it is an asinine goal to pursue.

      This is absolutey not true. Electronic voting done right works in many places, most notably Brazil. Theyve had some scandals but now they have paper verified voting. You vote and it prints out a slip of paper. The paper goes in a bag in case of contestment. (is that a word?) Not to mention Brazil is HUGE country. Its almost 200 million. We're at 300 million and we dont even have compulsory voting. So if those cats can get it right so can we. There is also cost savings here.

      I believe Australia (or was it new zealand) had to open their voting machine code to satisfy a transparency law. From what I remember security researchers got to analyze it and produce a report to the government.

      At the end of the day -some- machine will be reading a voet. Be it a simple scanner that reads dots and outputs its count onto some piece of paper. The idea that involving more humans into the process is good is questionable, to me at least. There has always been x amount of spoilage be it due to incompetence and fraud. Electronic voting isn't much better or much worse. In fact with better logging it could show us who is messing with the votes. Lets not be luddites here.

      The problem here is the cronyism. You cant make voting machines in the for-profit/old boys club. These machines (or least their designs) need to be first developed by the government, tested by the government, open to the people, then sent to manufacturers. The top down approach of business approaching government with a machine designed in-house is terrible for this kind of application. There's more transparency in the defense industry than in the voting industry. The American implemention is just flawed . Better to address the flaws than dismiss electronic voting. The genie is out of the bottle.

    2. Re:Wasted money going electronic by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      The problem here is the cronyism. You cant make voting machines in the for-profit/old boys club. These machines (or least their designs) need to be first developed by the government, tested by the government, open to the people, then sent to manufacturers. The top down approach of business approaching government with a machine designed in-house is terrible for this kind of application. Oh! I get it now! It's a trickle-down democracy!

      By giving vote-breaks to the richest 1%, their increased democratic empowerment will trickle-down to benefit the disenfranchised!
      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    3. Re:Wasted money going electronic by spisska · · Score: 1
      Electronic voting done right works in many places, most notably Brazil. [...] Not to mention Brazil is HUGE country. Its almost 200 million. We're at 300 million and we dont even have compulsory voting.

      Unfortunately, this is not an apt comparison. Electronic voting does indeed scale well. But as far as elections are concerned, the US is not a country of 300 million -- it is 50 different states each of which has its own laws and practices regarding the conduct of elections, and each of which is made up of dozens or hundreds of different jurisdictions, some of which have their own rules regarding elections.

      There are no national elections in the US. Every election, even for Federal office, is held by the counties, cities, townships, etc, and ultimately certified by the state in which it is held.

      A voting system (ie machines and processes) that is designed for Florida, for example, may work wonderfully there but may not meet the needs of North Dakota. A system designed for Wyoming may bog down under the massive ballots in places like Maricopa County, AZ or Los Angeles County, CA.

      The main problem I see with DRE voting in the US is that the machines don't really add anything to the process, don't make voting easier or more convenient, don't make counting votes faster or more accurate, but they do make elections a whole lot more complicated and expensive.

    4. Re:Wasted money going electronic by helicologic · · Score: 1

      I call bullshit. I just don't buy that there are differences among the states that are so significant that they justify the fragmented election "system" we have. The national govt needs the power to specify various election system parameters (e.g. nothing that is non-open). It would require a constitutional amendment to get that power, I think; but I think that is the right thing for the country. Will

    5. Re:Wasted money going electronic by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      No, the problem is that a "paper trail" means jack. If I can hack the software, I can certainly modify it to record one thing and print out another. The only way to be sure your vote matches the one cast is if there were TWO paper copies -- one for you and one for the record, and then the record would have to be AT LEAST randomly sampled, if not fully tallied. And guess what? Counting paper ballots is the old system. If we're going to have paper voting, then just have paper voting -- no need for electronic tallying.

    6. Re:Wasted money going electronic by Acer500 · · Score: 1
      Er... systems proposed call for the voter to SEE what's on the paper as part of the "paper trail".

      If not, it's just as useless as no paper trail at all.

      Example from the ACM:

      Voting systems should also enable each voter to inspect a physical (e.g., paper) record to verify that his or her vote has been accurately cast and to serve as an independent check on the result produced and stored by the system.

      http://www.acm.org/usacm/Issues/EVoting.htm
      --
      There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
    7. Re:Wasted money going electronic by number11 · · Score: 1

      If I can hack the software, I can certainly modify it to record one thing and print out another.

      Of course. That's why you do a manual recount of a randomly selected 5% of the precincts. To check whether it comes out the same as the machines' count.

      There, wasn't that easy?

    8. Re:Wasted money going electronic by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Right, I get that. They SEE what's on the paper. Do they SEE what's stored in the computer? Not unless the programmer (or presumably, hacker) wants them to. There's no way to verify whether the result produced on paper = the result stored. It's a red herring, a placebo, and it creates a false sense of security. The only way to be sure, as I said, would be to count the paper records in their entirety, and then what's the point of using a computer? It's just a high-tech typewriter at that point. Which is fine, I guess, but we need to stop trusting software when there will always been a weak point in the chain to exploit. Paper ballots and human counting isn't infalliable, but they're very very transparent, which is really more important. If computers printed out the votes, and then THOSE PRINTOUTS were counted, then fine. Anything else is a farce.

    9. Re:Wasted money going electronic by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Paper trails don't guarantee what the machine records but they provide data to match the machine's record against. If the paper trail indicates a result that differs from the result in the machine you at least know the machine has been doing something wrong instead of taking the machine's result and hoping that it's right with no way to check.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    10. Re:Wasted money going electronic by archivis · · Score: 1

      Right thing for the country, I agree. That is why it won't ever happen.

      --
      In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.
  17. Parent is insightful (or at least funny). by darkonc · · Score: 2, Informative
    It's a parody of how some votes seemed to just 'disappear' in some all-electronic jurisdictions.

    This is one of those situations where knee-jerk moderating doesn't quite work.

    --
    Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
  18. Stop getting distracted... by WickedLogic · · Score: 1

    You are talking about basically a reinstallation of the entire voting system hardware. Although that may be true, it does not address the issues of the study or the studies findings. It does not mitigate the truth about the machines. So the question becomes do we find it acceptable that paper trail voting be required.

    Personally, if machine purchasers/builders could not see this being an issue, yes they should have to reinstall the machines and the process should be forced to be open. I wouldn't sell or buy a car without doors for obvious reasons, no matter who tried to tell me it was a good idea. Paper trails are an obvious requirement even if not enabled as a core functionality.

    Note he doesn't dispute the issue, just implies that dealing with it would take lots of work...
  19. Really Tired of this Crap! by Bryansix · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm getting really tired of this crap! Putting the whole country on an optical scanning system would not be expensive at all. No more excuses. I want a paper with the name of the candidate I voted for right next to my mark. I want this to be audited randomly and I want random checks of the random checks. I want to know that my vote was counted. Otherwise this is just a fake democracy.

    1. Re:Really Tired of this Crap! by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Why do you need optical scanners at all? Why not just have people count the votes? This is the way it works in Canada, and in many other countries.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:Really Tired of this Crap! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are both idiots. Both of the systems suggested are just as susceptible to tampering as any other. Optical scan systems, to start with, are unreliable. Even if the ballots are printed by a machine, they face problems when the printers start to run out of ink, or when there are flaws in the paper. Even if you fix the reliability issues, the machine doing the counting is just as open to hacking as any other. There is also the issue of lost ballots, ie. making sure the ballots get to the counting system in the first place. We don't have people count the votes because we don't trust people, there's too much room for error and/or bullshit, and it takes too long. Were you not around in 2000? You're basically asking for manual recounts on everything instead of using machines at all. Canada and others can manage it because they have much lower population density, but it will not work here.

    3. Re:Really Tired of this Crap! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
      Even if the ballots are printed by a machine, they face problems when the printers start to run out of ink, or when there are flaws in the paper.

      Easy enough to fix. Hang a sample ballot in each voting machine with a sign: "If your ballot does not look exactly like *this*, please ask for a new one.

      Even if you fix the reliability issues, the machine doing the counting is just as open to hacking as any other.

      The machines need not be complex or even computerized. They could be as simple as 20 Veeder-Root mechanical counters running off of pulses from photodiodes. For added accuracy, run the same set of ballots through two different machines - if the results don't match, run them through a third machine. And have the machines certified by a reliable repairman before and after the counts.

      You're basically asking for manual recounts on everything instead of using machines at all. Canada and others can manage it because they have much lower population density, but it will not work here.

      That's a fallacy. The number of election workers per given number of ballots should remain roughly constant. If anything, it'll decrease with in increasing number of ballots since you need fewer trainers and some types of managers. And election workers can be recruited the same way as the census - pay younger people fairly high salaries for the essentially temporary work.

      -b.

    4. Re:Really Tired of this Crap! by joey_knisch · · Score: 1

      No kidding, we have this in Minnesota right now and it works great. No problems as far as I can tell. The counting machines are on site and reject a ballot if something is wrong with it. If states are too cheap to buy a device merely for voting, perhaps some enterprising company can make a modular machine allowing usage for scoring tests in schools and voting.

    5. Re:Really Tired of this Crap! by azrider · · Score: 1

      I have been reading this (and previous). We already use scoring machines four times a year in just about every school for NCLB We cannot reuse these machines for three times max per year for voting? If not, do the voters or the schoolchildren lose???

      --
      And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
      John 8:32(King James Version)
  20. Then There's the Conspiracy Theory by darkonc · · Score: 1

    Have you considered the possibility that the people who voted against the proposal (or their political masters) got into place via a software-rigged vote?

    --
    Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
    1. Re:Then There's the Conspiracy Theory by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      My first thought was simple: WTF? Better crack than the mods at ./ apparently.
      But you and the GP seem to fit Occam's Razor better, so I think it's likely to be true. Sadly.

      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
  21. Conspiracy by mulhollandj · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I haven't yet determined if this is a conspiracy of power mongers or just one of mass stupidity. I think both.

    1. Re:Conspiracy by lottameez · · Score: 1

      I vote for stupidity.

      HAHAHAHA. Ain't it great, I said "vote for stupidity"! It can mean "Vote" as a clever tie-in to the story subject, or "vote for stupidity" as in "I vote for stupid things", e.g. Bush, or it could be just my answer to the parent post or it ....

      -5 Inane Blathering. Karma whore no more.

      --
      Yeah? Well I think you're overrated too.
  22. Open Voting by CaptainTux · · Score: 1

    The scientiest at the NIST are right: voting machines *are* indeed impossible to secure. But it's not because of some inherent technical limitation or issue. It's because there is absolutely no way to truely verify the integrity of the machine at its most basic levels: operating system and voting software. There's no way to ensure that either has not been tampered with since both of these two critical pieces of the infrastructure are usually closed source.

    Now, while I'm a fan of open source, I can definitely see situations where it doesn't really matter (from a security standpoint) whether you use a closed or open system. This is not one of them. If a complete solution would be developed centered around a completely open system it would nearly totally eliminate the integrity issues surrounding eVoting. And as for software reliability issues like making sure it doesn't crash, all the votes are counted and appropriated correctly, ect, that's really *not* an issue. Reliable and bug free software can be designed - think space shuttle, airplane guidance systems, etc. If these systems can be bug-free (or nearly so) then certainly a voting system (something that counts and catalogs) can be.

    The government needs to stop wasting money with do-nothing firms with questionable integrity (I'm looking at YOU Diebold) and look towards a solution with nothing to hide. An open solution.

    --
    Anthony Papillion
    Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
    "Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
    1. Re:Open Voting by 0xABADC0DA · · Score: 1

      You can't make a computer secure so that's why you make your system not rely on the computer:

      Voter ---> Computer --> PRINTOUT --> BOX --> Counting --> Final Tally

      I could care less if the computer is rigged as long as the printout say what I actually thought I voted for and as long as I can observe the counting.

    2. Re:Open Voting by surprise_audit · · Score: 1
      Open source or not, how does anyone know that the program being executed is the one that was compiled from the verified source?? How easy would it be to hide a flash chip in the circuitry with an alternative program that was tripped on voting day and not before??

      But never mind the machines themselves, it was proven by Diebold's own internal memos and messages that the vote tabulating database was easily modified without having to use a password. Individual voters would be able to see that their vote was correctly noted at the polling place, but the only way to prove foul play in a given district would be essentially to get people back to the polls. That's where the paper trail becomes useful.

  23. if it's already broken don't fix it by callmetheraven · · Score: 0
    "Committee member Brit Williams, who opposed the measure, said, 'You are talking about basically a reinstallation of the entire voting system hardware.'

    Sure, who would want to spend a few dollars on something as trivial as preventing our (representative) democracy from being hijacked (again).
    That money would be MUCH better spent on the Iraq mess and tax breaks for the ultra wealthy.
    --
    You can have my SIG when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
  24. Secure tallying by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't think the solution to current-day voting machine problems are a more secure way of voting. I think what we need is secure tallying.

    Whatever scheme we dream up, such as punch-card voting, or a paper trail, the fact remains that we really don't know whether our vote will affect the *tally*. A paper trail only comes into play when the official tally is suspect for some reason. What we really need to know is that our vote is counted. Even if we have a bar-code on a paper receipt that shows exactly who we voted for, we have no way of knowing whether or not our little bar-code verified data gets in to the official tally.

    Here's what I wrote the last time this discussion came up on slashdot:
    "What I'm envisioning is some kind of method where votes can be tallied, and the running tally can be periodically published during the count. I imagine it would have some kind of hashing technology, like PGP, where tallies are perhaps encoded in a string, and the string is published. The hashing token, or whatever mechanism allowed a vote to be legitimately added to the tally, would be passed from one voter to another, after they voted. This puts the power to count votes into the hand of the voters, rather than a poorly-trained election volunteer, a partisan, or a hackable machine. Because of the constraints of the token and hashing, a voter can only vote as they are allowed, without destroying the tally hash string."

    One problem with secure tallying is that you want to make sure that your vote is counted in the official tally, but you don't want others to deduce how you voted from the official tally. At this point, I imagine one voter passing the official tally to the next voter. That way you can be certain you have affected the tally, and the design of the system constrains you to only one vote. Periodically, perhaps every hour, the official tally is publicly released. Nobody can then figure out how you voted; they only know how the crowd voted in the past hour.

    To satisfy the choke point of one voter passing the official tally to the next person, there can be multiple official tallies that are running concurrently, and at the end of voting, they are all added together in a master tally.

    --
    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
    -- Pablo Picasso
    1. Re:Secure tallying by maxume · · Score: 1

      About 300 people voted in my precinct. Total. It happens to be quite Republican. Imagine a scenario where 10 people vote in an hour and 1 of them is a Democrat. I sure like hiding in the pool of 300 a lot more than the pool of 10 or 20.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Secure tallying by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's a good point.

      Perhaps if your pool is that small, you don't need to report hourly. If you have 10 people voting in an hour, just report at the end of voting. However, if you have 300 people voting every hour, report every hour.

      Perhaps the trigger to publish the running tally is the number of people voting, instead of arbitrary time blocks.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    3. Re:Secure tallying by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      Chaum's peel-off ballot gives you a ticket to take home that doesn't show how you voted but does enable you to track that your vote got counted and got counted correctly.

    4. Re:Secure tallying by maxume · · Score: 1

      That would be open to 'forcing' though, as large groups from one party could conspire to follow persons of interest into the booths. That's getting pretty theoretical, but random important guy's (voting) privacy is just as worthy of protection as everybody else's.

      Have you seen Rivest's 3 ballot system? Look here:
      http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/10/new_ voting_prot.html
      http://theory.csail.mit.edu/~rivest/Rivest-TheThre eBallotVotingSystem.pdf

      I haven't read these, but they popped up while tracking it down:
      http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/voting/Strauss- ThreeBallotCritique2v1.5.pdf
      http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~appel/papers/Defeatin gThreeBallot.pdf

      They appear to be of interest.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    5. Re:Secure tallying by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Could your boss sit down with you and your peel-off, watch you log on to the website, and make sure that you voted the right way?

      Google didn't turn up any hits for the unquoted phrase "Chaum's peel-off ballot". Where can I learn more about it?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  25. What did you expect from NIST? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It isn't suprising that they wouldn't want you to vote considering the role they have played in covering up 9/11.

    What do you expect from a government agency that is part of the most corrupt and facist government the world has ever known?

  26. $400 billion spent in Iraq... by fuego451 · · Score: 1

    ... but we can't afford to fix our voting system, the core of our democratic republic? I say we hang these fuckers!

  27. Wasn't E-voting the promised land? by heroine · · Score: 1

    A few years ago when your candidate lost, you complained about other countries having E-voting and u.s. lagging behind. When your candidate still lost in 2004, you complained about E-voting not working and rushing into it too fast.

    Now you're complaining about other countries taxing energy use to reduce global warming and u.s. lagging behind in such taxes. Wonder where this is going.

  28. Stalin was right... by hsmith · · Score: 1

    It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes.

    If voting mattered, they wouldn't let you vote! Silly to think you actually have choices in an election. Elections are just your high school SGA with older people. Simple popularity contests.

  29. So ... accountability in voting by nullchar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So ... accountability in voting will be a joke for the foreseeable future because it costs too much?

    And accountability in voting will be a joke because the first implementation was a total fuck up?

    In software, the solution to this problem would be: eVoting 2.0
    Changelog:

    • Added verifiable paper trail for each ballot cast (not a total summary printout at the end)
    • Replaced Diebold with open source hardware and software
    • Restored confidence in democracy
    1. Re:So ... accountability in voting by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Restored confidence in democracy

      • Received complaints from users of the system that this "democracy" thing is unseemly, and confidence in it is unwarranted.
      • Scrapped project, started new project to promote fear of terrorism instead.
      • Bought cocaine and hookers
      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    2. Re:So ... accountability in voting by Firehed · · Score: 1
      • ???
      • Profit!
      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
  30. re: privacy by MORTAR_COMBAT! · · Score: 1

    come up with such a system that protects you being susceptible to intimidation. your own access to your recorded vote outside of the voting booth of necessity grants access to your recorded vote to anyone who "convinces" you it is worthwhile to show them your vote.

    i still don't see the problem with simple scantron "fill in the bubble" voting sheets. fill them in, take them to a machine and feed it in. the machine displays the votes on screen that it is about to record. you confirm that "yup, the machine read it correctly" and hit "submit". the vote is counted and your sheet is held by the machine. if you say "hey, that's not what i voted" you hit "cancel" and the sheet is marked clearly as a cancelled sheet, not counted, and you go get another sheet.

    or, we have people count the votes and trust the people to count honestly and correctly.

    --
    MORTAR COMBAT!
  31. Too Expensive!? by Howitzer86 · · Score: 1

    Politicians would sooner have another quagmire in the middle east than secure the continued function of our Democracy.

  32. Paper trails are bad - think about coercion by tsmoke · · Score: 1

    With a paper trail it becomes extremely easy to sell votes or be coerced into voting. The voter has the receipt to prove to a third party they fulfilled their previously agreed upon obligation.

    Take a look at Ben Adida's work on this http://benlog.com/ http://ben.adida.net/ and http://ben.adida.net/presentations/

    1. Re:Paper trails are bad - think about coercion by sharp_blue · · Score: 1

      The paper trail is not taken away with the voter!
      The voter can see it, but not touch it. It is kept like ordinary ballots, for auditing pourpose, and it is not possible to identify the voter from the individual paper trail.

    2. Re:Paper trails are bad - think about coercion by tsmoke · · Score: 1

      Actually, please slashdot readers, excuse me. Ben is a student of Ron Rivest, so I am full of shit.

      Going to go tattoo RTFM on the inside of my eyelids now...

  33. For fucks sake... by FunWithKnives · · Score: 1

    This just pisses me off so fucking much. I want to punch this guy in the face, whining about having to rethink and reimpliment the entire voting system. And to top it off, stating that it would be "too expensive"? What kind of hypocritical bullshit is that? Look at all of the pointless shit that our government throws money at. Ted Stevens' "Bridge to Nowhere" comes to mind. If this is what needs to take place in order to reassure the American people that their election process is not being raped and murdered, then that's what must happen. This whole thing just stinks to high hell of dishonesty and double-crossing of the American people, from both ends of the political spectrum. Fuck this guy, and fuck the rest of the scapegoating shills. We need reform. Soon. Soon as in now.

    --
    "We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
    1. Re:For fucks sake... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well how bout email campaign.
      Here:
      bwilliam AT kennesaw DOT edu
      from here:
      http://vote.nist.gov/bios/williams.htm

      I'm sure as hell emailing the dumbshit.

  34. Voting Records by Renobulus · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter either way. If the voting machine gives me a receipt what is that going to solve?

    If I can look my vote up on the Internet to "verify" that my vote is recorded as I intended it to be. Nowhere in any of that can you reasonably assert that your vote was actually counted the way it's being presented to you, whether on a paper receipt or pulling it up online.

    If I were to "hack the vote" in any system I would make sure that to the voter everything always looked as those his vote was counted as he intended. The only thing I'd change would be the totals.

    Paper receipts would only be "verifiable" if you were in a small town and gathered up everyone with proof of who they voted for and matched the results to the totals. But good luck trying that with 100 million people.

    Reno.

    1. Re:Voting Records by surprise_audit · · Score: 1
      Paper receipts would only be "verifiable" if you were in a small town and gathered up everyone with proof of who they voted for and matched the results to the totals. But good luck trying that with 100 million people.

      Something similar actually happened a couple of years ago. One candidate in some town scored zero votes, then someone came forward and claimed to have voted for that person. I think that's as far as it went. Of course, it could be that the ballot was voided in some way.

    2. Re:Voting Records by azrider · · Score: 1

      Actually, in the 2006 votes, one candidate got 0 votes (guess not even he or his wife felt he was qualified

      --
      And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
      John 8:32(King James Version)
  35. Why don't you understand vote fraud? by CrayDrygu · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "I'd rather have the problems associated with receipts with ids on them that I can log online to see who I voted for instead of the current system."

    Fine. In the next election, make sure you vote for the party I tell you to. I expect to see your reciept as proof you voted appropriately. If you don't, I'll break your kneecaps with a sledgehammer. And if I can't find you, I'll just have your family killed.

    Or we could just, you know, *not* promote vote fraud. That would be OK too. Whichever you and your family would prefer.

    --

    --
    "I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett

    1. Re:Why don't you understand vote fraud? by Kookus · · Score: 1

      Let's just assume you actually make it to election day without landing in jail. Let's then assume you actually had the influence to threaten a few hundred thousand people. Let's then assume you actually make it to my family and kill them and break my kneecaps. Finally let's assume you are able to repeat that across the board for the other people (Whose family members you killed you have no idea how they voted) also without getting shot by the cops. Then... wow, you really accomplished what you set out to do!

      Oh, crap, Let's also assume the guy doing the same thing for the other party doesn't deep 6 you!

      That's a lot of interesting problems that you managed to side skirt... I dare say you are a Saint for the miracles you have performed!

    2. Re:Why don't you understand vote fraud? by prelelat · · Score: 1

      well there are plety of other reasons why this is not the best choice as well. What if you had checked your vote online at work and the IT staff sees this and then posts it all round the office, who voted for who? well then you might have people bothering you about politics all freaking year round or in the next election someone comes up to you and bothers you until you vote a certain way. Now this isn't going to effect everyone, if you asked me who I voted for in the last election I would gladly tell you for who and why. But if you are able to pressure someone ever into voting a different way then they feel I don't think democracy works.

      The office is just one way, if someone finds that paper like your wife, girl friend, parents, friends, they may not hold you in the same regard judge you, and your not just going to throw it out right there someone might pick it up. This method you speak of for verfying your vote doesn't work. If you want to verify it, try doing a paper system and put the ballot in the box yourself, and sit there and watch them count it. Seems like the most logical way of verifying a vote.

      I have no problems with electronic voting systems they just seem to be quite unreliable as I don't think they have been tested enough before being put in the wild in some cases. I think alot of public testing should have been done as well as maybe doing a paper ballot and a electronic ballot should have been used together so that people could verify the the electoral votes on the electronic ballot to the counted paper ballots. Seems like a good transition to me but what do I know.

  36. OSS voting in 1 day by 0xABADC0DA · · Score: 1

    Voting machine:

    1. Setup linux distro with apache, tomcat, whatever
    2. Install ballot web app
    3. Install ballot CUPS printer filter
    4. Setup firefox for kiosk mode

    Counting machine:

    1. Setup linux distro with ballot_counter.py
    2. Attach scanner
    3. Run ballots through OCR software
    4. Update counters (in realtime as scanned)

    Ballots print like this, one measure per line:

              PRESIDENT: AL GORE
              SENATE: JAMES WEBB
              STEM-CELL: YES

    Also the tally program just keeps track of unique lines returned from the OCR and puts this count next to the on-screen list (sorted by count). Thus it doesn't need to know anything about the election. The top N lines on the screen as votes are scanned (after polls close) will automatically show the votes from the ballot followed by the most popular write-ins (ie Mickey Mouse).

    You can add fancy CSS styles, javascript to prevent accidental undervoting, screen readers, on-screen keyboard, etc. There... a complete, secure, reliable, OSS, and cheap voting system for a day's work.

  37. An illustration of how stupid this situation is by DrXym · · Score: 1
    I can walk into a store and buy a postage stamp and get a receipt for it. The receipt uniquely records my transaction and is my proof that I bought a stamp. So how come a voting machine cannot do likewise? It isn't rocket science. It isn't difficult. All it has to do is print a receipt that I put in a box when I walk out of the voting booth. If there is any dispute, the paper receipt can be used independently count the number of votes which should tally with the electronic total.

    I do not understand why anybody would object to this unless they had 100,000 paperless machines sitting in a warehouse somewhere.

    1. Re:An illustration of how stupid this situation is by dei3oe · · Score: 0

      We do have a receipt... the I VOTED sticker.

      On the other hand, the only way a receipt would ever be acceptable is if it could ONLY be used to verify that your vote was counted when the totals were run. There should not be any record in your possesion that proves who you voted for.

    2. Re:An illustration of how stupid this situation is by zuiraM · · Score: 1

      Because if you don't show me proof that you voted for "None of the above", I'll know to break your kids' kneecaps. That a good enough reason for you?

      (PS: Obviously, I'm not going to do that. I don't even live in the US. But I trust I've made my point clear. There is a reason why anonymous voting is considered a prerequisite to democracy. That said, the current approach makes no sense either. Get the people who build rocket-launcher software to make an open implementation with a discrete 6502 that is inspected against a photograph on-site, or something; what do I care... The B5 analogy is at the end of a season here; guess which one.)

    3. Re:An illustration of how stupid this situation is by DrXym · · Score: 1
      should not be any record in your possesion that proves who you voted for.

      Which is why I said it should be placed in a box on your way out. The purpose is so that a manual paper count (either done on a random basis or by court order) should be possible. Though if you want a piece of paper to take home with you, a number of straightforward ways of doing this have been proposed by people on the crypto scene.

    4. Re:An illustration of how stupid this situation is by archivis · · Score: 1

      Okay genius, the paper receipts don't leave in voters hands, they're there only as a crosscheck against the vote just recorded. If the evote and printed ballot don't match you raise a stink because it's fraud or a malfunction. If they match the evote and the paper ballot remain in the machine. Bad paper receipts get marked void and put into the same secure storage that valid vote receipts go into.

      Later if vote tallies look fishy, the individually certified by voter but anonymous paper vote receipts are tallied against the evotes to see where the error lies.

      The paper receipts would be no less anonymous than the rest of the vote accounting process. Vote instance #40u490u6-4u682 at vote machine #412-5 voted Bob. Maybe a timestamp.

      Sure its possible to tamper with the paper votes, but its easier to spot a guy lugging a couple briefcases full of fake receipts than it is to spot that someone has hidden behind their tie a USB key (pick your favorite vendors crappy vulnerability) with the voting machine hack-of-the-week on it.

      --
      In July O7, I got a mac pro. There's no punchline. Just endless joy and wonder.
    5. Re:An illustration of how stupid this situation is by zuiraM · · Score: 1

      Ok, sorry, I didn't catch that part. Most the people here have suggested taking the "proof" with them, which would be a different matter. It'd still be susceptible to photographs, but that'd be the case for just about anything, so not such a bad idea after all. My mistake.

  38. one man, one vote, once only... by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    You can always change to the system used by most of the rest of the world and just stop voting altogether. Select a president for life and get it over with. This bi-anual media circus is very wasteful.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  39. Re: privacy by Kookus · · Score: 1

    ...because you can't confirm that the vote on the scantron was the vote they used in determining who won the race.
    With the proper governance in place, you can protect people from intimidation, and even make it worth their while to turn people in who attempt to.

    If your boss is the kind of person who would force you to vote a certain way, they are the same kind of person who would make you perform sexual favors for them in order to keep your job... I just don't see it as a problem that has no repercussions.

  40. Mail voting problems by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
    It would take away the intimidation and nuttiness factors of each side having their own lawyers watching to make sure that clueless those chads don't get pregnant.

    Problem with mail voting is that ballots could be made to "disappear" outside the election system (for example post office clerks could be bribed to toss them). The more hands sensitive data passes through, the more of a chance there is for corruption of said data, whether accidental or malevolent.

    -b.

    1. Re:Mail voting problems by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      True. But it also becomes a federal offense if the mail is tampered with.

    2. Re:Mail voting problems by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
      True. But it also becomes a federal offense if the mail is tampered with.

      Big deal. Election fraud is also a felony (though not necessarily a Federal one) in most places. Jail is jail - if anything, state prison time is "harder" than Federal prison since state prisons are often old facilities with poor oversight and underpaid pissed-off guards.

      -b.

  41. What's the point of e-voting? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1
    If you have a paper trial, you may as well just use paper ballots. Optical scanning equipment can be really efficient and fast. You just need to minimize possibility of incomplete punches - with proper equipment, that's possible with very high certainty. Add to that good ballot design (the Florida example was just poor graphic design) and you have a winner.

    -b.

  42. how the paper trail should work... by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

    voting machine looks like it does today, touch screen for example.
    When the user presses the vote button the machine prints a ticket with the results.
    The ticket is a two part ticket just like the recepits you get at the store.
    The top copy goes into a lock box, the bottom copy is handed to the voter.
    Before handing in the ticket the voter examines the ticket to make sure it is correct.
    If in error the operator can cancel the vote on the machine and the voter makes corrections.
    If correct the operator finalizes the vote on the machine and places the ticket in the
    lock box. In the event of a recount the tickets in the lock box are used and compared
    against the machine tally. The lockbox ticket count would override the machine count results.

    1. Re:how the paper trail should work... by zuiraM · · Score: 1

      Why not go for the simpler solution?

      Use old-fashioned paper ballots (grab one for your party, stick it in an envelope, stick the envelope in a box). Spend the money on having a million chinese kids counting the votes by hand so you get the results just as quick.

      Seriously, it'd be cheaper than getting e-voting right with the current process.

  43. More information by ThOr101 · · Score: 1

    1. Was the draft refused for technical merits, or because the solution was simply too expensive?

    2. Are they trying to re-write the draft so address the issues that can be addressed without eliminating the solution to the problem?

    3. Who do we contact in our government to urge them to get this voting mess corrected? Senators, Congress people, NIST representatives?

  44. You damn betcha it costs too much! by Medievalist · · Score: 1
    accountability in voting will be a joke for the foreseeable future because it costs too much?
    Yeah, it'd cost some people their jobs.

    1. Re:You damn betcha it costs too much! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I wouldn't exactly call politicians "people"...

  45. Umm, these are computers right? by BlueCoder · · Score: 1

    What's so hard about installing a printer?

    What am I missing?

  46. Yes... by hummassa · · Score: 1

    accountability in voting will be a joke for the foreseeable future because it costs too much? No, accountability in voting will be a joke in the foreseeable future because it always was a joke in the past. Go watch "Streets of New York".
    Paper ballots == ballot stuffing.
    --
    It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
    1. Re:Yes... by Simon+la+Grue · · Score: 0

      Uhh, no. Paper trail != Paper ballots != ballot stuffing. Paper trail (reciept) = I walk out of the building knowing that the vote I thought I hit was the vote that got counted. Why would someone take a receipt and go back and claim that it was wrong, if they were trying to rig the vote, when all they had to do was press the "other guy" in the first place?

    2. Re:Yes... by hummassa · · Score: 1

      Uhh, no. Paper trail != Paper ballots != ballot stuffing.

      Paper trail (reciept) = I walk out of the building knowing that the vote I thought I hit was the vote that got counted. No, you don't. And even if you _do_ guarantee somehow cryptographically that your vote counted, you do _not_ guarantee that all absentee's votes weren't hijacked. But when you can cryptographically guarantee that your vote counted right, you now have a problem: you can show it to other people, and your boss can tell you: show me you voted for X or you're fired. And you don't know if your neighbour's vote got counted. My point is: rigging a big (secret-vote) election is normally viable. Paper trails don't do much to improve that. The solutions? Get rid of the secret vote (so you have _real_ accountability, but you have lots of room for other abuses) or make lots of smaller, easier-to-keep-in-check elections (that is the process we have down here -- and we don't even have paper trails, but every now and then the opposition candidate wins).

      Why would someone take a receipt and go back and claim that it was wrong, if they were trying to rig the vote, when all they had to do was press the "other guy" in the first place? People trying to rig a vote make the machine emit the receipt correctly and count the vote incorrectly. Simple as that.
      --
      It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
  47. There are simple cheap methods by John+Sokol · · Score: 1


      My Mailclad scheme uses simple random numbers and data bases to make an unbreakable system that allow for clear open auditing while still allowing voters anonymity.

      It's similar to the Autotote system used for betting on horse races and the way some Vegas slot machines print out cash vouchers, also Lotto tickets use a similar random serial number scheme.
      Heck even Mc Donald's Monopoly game pieces uses random serial numbers to ensure anti forgery to prevent cheaters.

    I have started a source forge project for this and have www.mailclad.com to make an open source voting system based on this.

    john

    --
    I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
    1. Re:There are simple cheap methods by zuiraM · · Score: 1

      If this stuff works out, you people might one day be compulsory material for the history classes over there. I really hope it does. I'll certainly be posting the suggestion to the issues forum of the Norwegian Liberal party once it matures; they'd love it.

  48. Why would anyone oppose verifiability? by natoochtoniket · · Score: 1

    An election system is verifiable if the results of the election can be verified by counting the unalterable voter-verified records of the votes that were cast in that election.

    There is only one reason why any official might oppose requiring all elections systems to be verifiable. That reason is: That official wants to rig future elections.

    Those officials should be tried for treason and shot.

  49. democracy for dummies by joe_schmoe_the_geek · · Score: 1

    They are perfectly willing to spend millions of dollars on doing recounts, fighting lawsuits, and don't apparently mind that America is becoming ever more cynical about the integrity of our voting system, but they won't spend a little extra money on voting machines? Give me a break. There are some who clearly favor a lack of accountability, and those people are called criminals. This is far too a matter to put into the hands of politically appointees or bureaucrats trying to appease their political masters. We need a Constitutional Amendment making every single voting place have a paper record. There are NO COMPUTERS that hackers can't hack into. I repeat, if you have a computer, then a hacker can break into your system and it doesn't matter how much security you think you have. The only exception could be someone like the NSA and somehow I doubt the polling places will ever achieve that kind of security. What we need are paper ballots and qualified voting place monitors from all parties involved in an election at that voting place, as well as from non-partisan groups that can make sure the independents aren't being cheated. Land of the free and home of the brave, but for how much longer if we allow corrupt people to tamper with the voting box?

    1. Re:democracy for dummies by surprise_audit · · Score: 1
      They are perfectly willing to spend millions of dollars on doing recounts, fighting lawsuits, and don't apparently mind that America is becoming ever more cynical about the integrity of our voting system, but they won't spend a little extra money on voting machines?

      What, and take away someone's favorite pork barrel?? I guess the voting machine makers lobby is more powerful than the pencil makers lobby.

  50. Is NIST more independent than other agencies? by Secrity · · Score: 1

    Is NIST any more independent than the other agencies (and their scientists) that have been pressured by the Administration to toe the Christian Right Republican Party Line?

  51. Confusing story! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This story contradicts itself and confused me. Can someone please fix it?

  52. YOUR VOTE Isn't worth the $ to ensure it's counted by mikelieman · · Score: 1

    Fucking Great.

    --
    Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
  53. Simple & Logical by chiaria · · Score: 1

    Canada manages to have a paper-only voting system, and produces all their results within a few hours, and has a lot fewer voting issues. then again, one of the secrets is to vote for only one thing - we don't elect dog-catchers and judges and 10 levels of governemt at the same time...

    The simple and obvious vote system would be this:
    Vote electronically. Whatever, touch screens. When all is settled, print out a final ballot- on a piece of paper, the size of an old computer punch card. It would be printed with both the vote choices (text) and an easily-scanned bar code. For good measure, it would have some form of hash-encrypted key with checksum, machine, serial number, approximate tim,e of voting, etc. You could even print off a matching copy for the voter to take home. (I would also allow the voter to print off "fake" voter receipts, so if they are selling their vote, they could produce whatever receipt for show that they wanted - but not have to actually vote that way. Unless the vote buyer had access to the encoded ballots, he would not be able to tell if the receipt was really for a final vote.)

    If you could make that code secure, then maybe add the exact time of voting so individual ballots could be disallowed if the voter were deemed fraudulent; as long as it's not easy to determine who voted how, without a very secret code.

    So now, you have a series of bar coded (easily machine-read) paper ballots. The text names also appear, so the voter can verify.

    I'm sure in the cases where machine code fudging is suspected, a scanner program could be written to compare text to bar code to ensure no hanky-panky was happening. Also, you could build sorting machines to sort ballots into slots (like the old card sorters) based on a vote value. A quick perusal of any stack ("these should all read 'GWB'...") would show whether any text-to-code mismatch was being performed.

    Voters of questionable credentials could still vote,but their ballots would be segregated and serial-numbered (with a hidden code) so that they could be permitted or denied based on challenges - sort of like sealing your vote in an envelope and tossing it in the count when the case is won...

    The down side? Every voting place would need a functional laser (3 for good measure) a huge supply of paper and some fancy computers and bar-code readers.

  54. And yet... by TheConfusedOne · · Score: 1

    ...every time we try to introduce a paper trail into voting the Democrats and various groups scream "racism!" and "disenfranchisement!". Heck, a court or two has even overturned such measure as "anti-constitutional".

    Really, before we worry about whether we've recorded the vote correctly, shouldn't we be worrying about if we recorded the voter correctly?

    details

    --
    --- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
  55. Hasn't Anyone Noticed... by eno2001 · · Score: 1

    ...just how much technological solutions can actually suck worse than old tried and true solutions? And I'm NOT a luddite, I love many different technologies. But I think electronic voting is something that can only work if it's done with no profit motive behind it. The machines and the work to make them SHOULD be completely free as part of civic duty on the part of individuals and businesses. Of course that will never happen because too many people have been brainwashed to think they can get rich by doing what their masters tell them.

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
  56. Reinstallation of the Entire System by gknoy · · Score: 1
    Committee member Brit Williams, who opposed the measure, said, 'You are talking about basically a reinstallation of the entire voting system hardware.'


    Why would this be a Bad Thing? I'd rather have an expensive overhaul to create a system I can trust than have a system which has no accountability.

    Insert comment about the scalability and parallelizability of counting paper here.
  57. Except that Hand Counting is Cheaper! by Soong · · Score: 1

    Hand Counting is Cheaper than Voting Machines, even if you pay 3 people to redundantly count every ballot. No technology required beyond pen and paper.

    --
    Start Running Better Polls
  58. What extra cost. by Skeptical1 · · Score: 1

    These machines likely need to be replaced every 4-8 years. They're standard PC tech. How many of you are running an eight year old computer? XP for sure will be 'end of lifed' by 2012 anyway.

  59. old news by bastardblaster · · Score: 1

    This was new back in march and november when the assemblies in these states were voting BEFORE the elections. http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
    Quit posting shit zonk
    you suck

  60. Losing respect by Plutonite · · Score: 1

    I'm losing a lot of my respect for the folks at NIST. They are more detached from the concerns of the educated public than I could have imagined:

    "You are talking about basically a reinstallation of the entire voting system hardware"

    Uh, yes? Isn't that, like, exactly what everybody has been yelling for since the last election? In fact, we were all suggesting far more stringent requirements than just paper trails, but it appears that Freedom has lower budgets than we anticipated.

  61. Look at Oregon for how to make it work by flieghund · · Score: 1

    You should spend some time here reading about Oregon's exlusive vote-by-mail (VBM) policy. In particular, there is an excellent and balanced analysis (PDF!) by Jimmy Carter and James Baker III -- you may have heard of these guys. From the report:

    The official guide to VBM, published by the Secretary of State's office, claims that it "raises voter participation, decreases costs and increases the overall integrity of the election process. It is a system that the vast majority of Oregonians love."

    The report continues to note that the voter participation claim may be exaggerated, though it admits to a 10% increase mostly in primary elections. There is also meager evidence to support an overall cost savings, though the administrative costs are lower a "hybrid" ballot-box and absentee system common most everywhere else. And to directly refute your concerns over the integrity of the system, the report notes "Despite having moved to an all by mail voting system in 1998 and having been a battleground state in the last two presidential elections, Oregon has been relatively free from the controversies that have dogged some absentee ballot systems." The report notes that of six supposed double-votes in the 2004 election, five were false and the sixth had already been caught and was being investigated prior to the complaint.

    Let us not forget, too, that VBM has been exceptionally well-received by Oregonians across every spectrum you can think of, be it political, social, economic, educational, etc.

    The key here is that everyone votes by mail. If you have the more typical hybrid system of ballot boxes and absentee VBM, you open yourself up to the kind of deceptive practices you warn against. A nationwide exclusive VBM system would probably solve a great number of the "voting irregularities" that continue to surface every couple of years.

    --
    "I came here to kick ass and chew bubblegum. I'm all out of bubblegum." MSE USC APX AIA CSI CASp
  62. We can pressure Congress by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    One pressure group is running a petition drive to ask the new Congressional leadership to require paper legally, rather than having us trust the wisdom and honesty of government agencies:
    http://www.democracyforamerica.com/paperballots

  63. NIST committee just flunked the sixth grade by JavaManJim · · Score: 1

    Teachers call back NIST committee, they flunked the sixth grade. But NIST itself does many wonderful brainy things.

    As an IT person and as an election judge here in Texas here are my comments. I omit those of despair

    PARALLEL LOGIC. Voting electronics are PC embedded based (the ones I have seen boot up). Votes are precious. Lets assume the operations part of voting goes wacko clear down to the chip level. So create electronics based on outer space electronics. Copy each vote (time stamp and who voted for) to a dedicated vote saver chip that is completely separate from the operations part. Something that is write only for that election. Something that is electronically non volatile. This would be a different electronic KIND of saving counts than that on the main operations part of the system. For a weak example, say main operations saves to a register and dedicated save is a writable CD.

    REDO THE VOTING MACHINES. One committee member decried changes saying everything would have to be replaced. You bet fella! Its brkoe ('broke'; see I had to replace my misspelled word).

    THE VOTE PROCESS HAS A DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY FROM IT. The vote process is kind of slow and crusty because it values those votes. So we have a problem with an IT approach (flush everything & reboot) vs be careful with everything approach. Really there is no happy medium. We must move to a more careful approach. Almost as far as keeping a change database of each line of operations code.An example is NASA's "They Write the Right Stuff".

    http://www.fastcompany.com/online/06/writestuff.ht ml

    Thanks slashdot for tickling our brains,
    Jim Burke

  64. apparently Brit doesn't want accurate results by jsepeta · · Score: 1

    if Brit Williams doesn't care about getting accurate and verifiable results from elections, he should just move to Russia where there's one candidate that you know is going to win regardless of the vote count. but as far as the rest of us are concerned, i'd rather have an expensive paper trail, one that requires removing all the Diebold CRAP that doesn't work in every blessed state, and implementing fair, trustable, and accurate vote counts for every single US citizen. failure to support such a measure is just freaking unamerican. even if the public elects some asshole who doesn't know what he's doing , we'd have the assurance that my neighbors at least voted for the jerk.

    --
    Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
  65. Punch cards? by zuiraM · · Score: 1

    How about just making a bunch of punch cards (hey, they're even reusable)?

    Make them out of plastic, with a clearly defined weight tolerance (making it easy to do fairly accurate preliminary manual checks to see if the electronic vote was right). Print the candidate names on the cards. You put them in a slot, the machine reads the holes (we've had a few decades to get punch cards right, and they're pretty robust- no way to screw it up), ticks of the vote electronically, and deposits the card in the right box, which you should be able to see so you know it goes in the right box. Announce the results based on the electronic count, weigh the boxes to get an approximate verification (with a known distribution curve and defined tolerance, you can know just how precise this is). Any discrepancies cause a recount. Cards are reused between elections.

    There's a million ways to do it, and most of them are better than what you have.

  66. Maybe one day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The great nation of Kazakstan will show the United States how to have a democratic election.

  67. 4% discrepancy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a matter of fact, there really is evidence that the 2006 elections were hacked, in the Republican's favor. The tricky part of hacking an election is that you don't want to skew the results enough to be obvious, and it looks like they underestimated how many people would vote Democrat.