Slashdot Mirror
Novell and Microsoft Claim Customer Support
munchola writes "Novell and Microsoft have commissioned a survey to prove that customers love their interoperability and patent deal. According to the survey 'Ninety-five percent approve of the collaboration between Novell and Microsoft,' while 'four out of five believe their organization would consider doing more business with Linux dealers if Linux providers establish an alliance with Microsoft.' As CBRonline notes, however: 'Few people have claimed the deal is bad for Novell or Microsoft's customers. The question has been whether it is good for the open source movement, open source developers, or indeed Novell itself. Those issues do not appear to have been addressed by the survey.'"
That's funny, most of the people that I have talked to and have read (i.e. from slashdot and various other forums) show an overwhelming majority of people that are NOT happy with the merger...
Living With a Nerd
The question has been whether it is good for the open source movement, open source developers, or indeed Novell itself. Those issues do not appear to have been addressed by the survey
Of course it doesn't, most of the people involved in the open source movement are not paying customers to either company. So why would MS and Novell try to make them happy.
Or did they commision multiple surveys with different wording and cherry-pick the one they liked most? It is marketing, after all.
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." -Albert Einstein
I don't see how collaborating int his area could possibly be bad. Certainly, it will give Novell/SuSE an advantage, but SuSE has consistently had features that other variations of Linux do not, such as bleeding edge drivers and early NTFS support (before it was common). There is certainly (justified) distrust of Microsoft in the Linux/open source community, especially given some of Steve Balmer's comments. ( http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?com mand=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9005171 )
...if businesses using Linux were to suddenly find themselves without support one day because their Linux partner has just lost a legal battle against Microsoft, they probably wouldn't like it as much.
Just saying.
Basilisk Digital
Here I thought they were announcing they were actually going to support their customers.
Move along, nothing to see here.
What?
Neither MS or Novell control our software, only we control our software. It is a hard lesson that many companies need to learn, they are not in control the developers are ultimately in control. The minute you alienate the developers in this type of environment you have already set up your ultimate demise.
Got Code?
I don't reply to Anonymous posts; if you have something to say to me, identify yourself or I won't reply.
Do you think that the recent interoperability and patent deal between Microsoft and Novel is
A) GoodB) Very Good
C) Not bad at all
Customers *always* like to hear that their vendors are playing nice-nice together; the details matter little -- at least in the short run. ... Or maybe it's just that Microsoft and Novell have wowed 'em with these cool billboards that are beckoning drivers in the Bay Area and Massachusetts:6
http://www.networkworld.com/community/?q=node/963
Reminds me of the "Black People Love Us!" website.
How can a survey like this go unnoticed by the Slashdot audience untill after it's been conducted ?
Did anyone here actually participate in this survey ?
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
Careful Novell. I'm almost positive Microsoft has patents that cover these sorts of bullshit surveys.
Ubuntu: If at first you don't succeed, blindly slap a sudo in front of it
Do thiry Helens agree?
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
Who's going to oppose that? It's not the good/bad quality of the deal itself that the survey addresses, but the benefits that MS/Novell are trying to sell.
But isn't that the same thing?
JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION DAMN IT!
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
why even bother reporting such nonsense?
it's not news, it's BS.
I suggest slashdot and others ignore it altogether instead of indignantly reporting it.
As far as I concern, some of the businesses do care if they can transfer their infrastructure among different Linux distros / Unices.
By forming alliance with Microsoft, Novell is promoting some sort of vendor lock-in, which will eventually lead to Microsoft's eclipse of Linux's (including Novell and other Linux vendors) market
You see, Novell will be forced to leave out important upgrades to the [Linux] kernel if parts of this kernel end up licensed under the upcoming GPL v3. When that happens, Novell will be forced to offer an "inferior" kernel to its customers. I believe no one can say that this is positive.
When I look into Novell's past, I fail to see any positive thing they (Novell) have done to whatever they've acquired.
Indeed!
95% of the people using a computer don't understand it at all.
Coincidence?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Warning: Opinion and Anecdotal discussion to follow; one size does NOT fit all.
All this focus on interoperability is ASSUMING businesses care about operating with Windows. Certainly some do, and they may care about interoperability issues. Others don't; I know my consulting business is a near-nonexistent speck in the grand scheme of things, but I care not one whit about interoperating with Windows. My business is Linux based, and when I set up protocols for dealing with clients, they include cross-platform data formats.
The only time I care about interop with Windows is when a client has a specific need - like the VPN I designed for a client last year. And what I found in that project was 99.99% of ALL the project headaches came from Windows - activation issues, 2003 Server licensing issues, 2003 Server MTU problems, etc.
Anymore, if a client is completely Windows centric and demands a Windows centric solution to their problem, I typically to not even submit a proposal. That's how I view all this interoperability stuff - it is the OTHER players that must conform to the Windows way of doing things; there is no INTERoperability (imho) - it's "operate with Windows' closed way of doing everything, or go play somewhere else."
Well, my business is playing somewhere else. My experience, and those of my clients, is that the solutions I provide LAST and don't force them into Vendor Lock-In and similar, related nonsense. As I said above, this approach is not for everybody.
Computational Chemistry products and services.
General Augusto Pinochet was "elected" supreme ruler of Chile again.
"According to the survey 'Ninety-five percent approve of the collaboration"
Collaboration indeed. Collaborators will be shot.
--
BMO
you could cut it with a knife.
C|N>K
Is this a new version of Microsoft "Get the facts"?
I first read that as "Microsoft and Novell PATENT customer support.
although I probably shouldn't say that out loud (or type that in print...or whatever)
A goal is a dream with a deadline
From the article: "PSB is a strategic communications firm that specializes in research-based recommendations for its clients. PSB has conducted research studies for Microsoft over the past 8 years." Wow, a POSITIVE survey that was commissioned by Microsoft, to the customers of Microsoft, by a company who regularly does commissioned reports for Microsoft. Who woulda thought?
The thing I don't get about Microsoft, is that they don't really need this deal with Novell. This is afterall about the server market. In the server market, Microsoft is not just an OS vendor, they have other mission critical software that connects to many other machines. For instance, Active Directory. If Microsoft made Active Directory interoperable with *nix clients, then I think that Active Directory use would go up. Afterall, Active Directory's market is limited to those whose datacenters are mostly Windows. What about the rest of the world that probably has some kind of hybrid. Some Windows here, some Linux there, maybe some Unix or even a Mac server thrown in somewhere. For these types of situations, they either use something like OpenLDAP or maybe use a third party AD add-on for the interoperability. Most are probably using a *nix based solution. If Active Directory were able to handle any client, I think more companies would consider AD since it would be more flexible. If you're all windows, using AD locks you into more windows and makes adding a linux server very difficult. On the desktop market, MS have a monopoly they can exploit, but not so much with the server market. The same should be applied to MS SQL server, Exchange and all the rest. The more flex you give the customer, the more likely they are to choose your product (unless it's a complete piece of crap)
"It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
I've been an ardent Novell supporter for 15 years and am a certified CNE on NW 4.x and 5.x. They've been messed up at marketing for a long time but always made great technology. Now I feel they've abandoned the tech community, after finally finding a path that might lead to their long term existence after Netware. I'll never again support or recommend Novell products to anyone, no matter what their clearly biased surveys say.
Look like some recently out-of-work Repbulican pollsters got new jobs. Still wearing the same suit and using the same set of numbers as well.
Bullshit surveys saying all's well and the customers love it - now we know Novell have been bought out by the Redmond beast.
I'm running NetWare 6.5, GroupWise 7.01 and ZENworks 6.0 and I am not happy with this "deal".
Nor will I ever recommend Novell products until Novell changes their attitude.
That sex with a crazed adult gorilla was good, would you join in?
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
Customers aren't qualified to comment, as in political surveys. They also tend to be management types who have a pathological need to seem smart.
Coupled with the psychological predisposition, given no additional evidence, an affirmative response will be provided.
Such that if you asked:
Do you think, in general, that it is a good idea that Wizerbangslopinpop and Akerwhackdoodle are snifflewagging the shooterscoots?
They'll say yes most of the time. Nor will they be inclined to ask questions as this would mean they are not "in the know", which is presumably why the survey people are asking them in the first place. (Of course, the marketdroids just tell them this because it gets them in the door and some face time.)
The smarter ones will try to hedge around the unknowns to glean some sort of contextual meaning, but still are likely not to know what they are talking about.
Hence, the exercise is good for comic relief and spin-value, but not for much else.
On a personal note: When I was in High School (way too many years ago...*sigh*), I did a survey for extra credit in Psych. I had a simple survey for science class with a single question:
"For extra credit equivalent to a 9 weeks exam, would you take a frontal lobotomy instead?"
I admit that I tinkered with the context clues in the sentence by equating taking a test with the likely unknown "frontal lobotomy", however 65% (roughly) of the respondents (out of a pool of ~100) said they would be happy to.
The psych instructor got pretty irritated at having to explain that he was not going to perform lobotomies on students in lieu of a 9weeks exam. But, I did learn a great deal, laughed myself to tears, and I got an A!
Anyone can create a poll and skew the results. Duh!
Would you rather:
...
A) More companies enter into a similar patent agreement with Microsoft.
B) Have a hot poker shoved up your ass.
Would you use Linux more if:
A) More companies paid Microsoft to prevent Microsoft from bringing a harassment law suit against users.
B) Had a hot poker shoved up your ass.
Would you feel more confortable:
A) Doing business with companies who have partnered with Microsoft
B) Having a hot poker shoved up your ass.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I work at a large small company that is now a subsidiary of a large multi-national; we are about 40% Windows/60% *nix on the back end (while they are near 100% Windows with a handful of exceptions). All of us admins here are big fans of OSS solutions but have to write extensive justifications and documentation for every Linux solution we want to use, far more than when we use a commercial Windows package. Within days of this announcement our PHBs were stating that using an MS blessed distro would make our lives much easier in the future. Another meeting today and it appears the purchasing monkeys have been directed to see what exactly Novell is offering up. So clearly this FUD has reached it's intended audience. Say what you will, the MS FUD/PR machine is a well tuned beast...
What a carefully worded survey given to cherry picked customers say isn't very relevant. The only thing relevant is what the people donating the code (that would be the Open Source community) feels. Most of us could care less if companies want to use our code.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
That the Open Source community IS the goose that lays the golden eggs. How WE feel is everything.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Was an email from Gates asking if a poll "could be found" which showed at least an 85% approval rating for the topic of the email.
Two weeks later a poll with that exact result appeared in a Windows centric site.
I doubt it was coincidence, and neither is this most recent push-poll for Microvell
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Microsoft's (probably patented) business model has long been known. Embrace, extend, extinguish.
It's just like a relationship. Everything's wonderful when it's all new. Your partner is wonderful, and together you're even better. Your confidence soars, and you try new things you'd never dreamed of before. Then she cuts you off in the knees, leaving you liquidating your assets to pay for hers. Watch out, Novell. That's your future. Enjoy the honeymoon. You're a banana in bed with the industry's 800 pound gorilla.
Of course, being a slashdot poster, all that relationship stuff is purely speculative.
Novell did what was in its business interest (and that of its customers, as Novell is a business in a competitive market) to do. The people who are up in arms over this deal are the ones that may be hurt by it - that is, non-Novell customers.
You have tried to support your argument with faulty reasoning! Go directly to jail; do not pass Go, do not collect $200!
He hit the nail right on the head. BTW deal is really important to Microsoft. Not that they care about interoperability. They just want to spread the impression that they have claim to parts of Linux so that they can destroy the free nature of OSS.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Anyone else catch the backtracking in just two sentences here?
If MS really cared about interoperability, they would not have been playing dirty tricks with APIs, protocols and file formats for the last twenty years. MS wants no part of Open Systems. Their talk about intellectual property rights is just a veiled threat, "buy from us or we'll pay some SCO-like operation to sue you."
The question that was missing from that survey is "do you trust Microsoft to keep their promises and not attempt to lock you into proprietary products?"
Here's the heart of the "survey", following lots of leading questions along the lines of "shouldn't IT providers cooperate more to improve interoperablity?":
On November 2nd, Microsoft and Novell announced a set of broad business and technical collaboration agreements to build, market, and support a series of new solutions to improve interoperability for customers and make Novell and Microsoft products work better together. The two companies also announced an agreement to provide each other's customers with patent coverage for their respective products.
Overall, do you approve of this
collaboration between Novell
and Microsoft?
----
What else did you expect from a story on PRNewswire?
You are one of the 5%.
I run Suse on my machine, a desktop I depend on every single day for engineering work. I wasn't thrilled when Novell bought Suse, but I upgraded to Suse Linux 9.2 anyways. It says "NOVELL" on the box. I think it was about $80.
Well, guess what. Next time I build up a new 'puter or upgrade the OS on this one... I'm not going to use Suse, even thought it may not be as seamless a transition for me.
I feel a little bad, because the Gecko is kinda cute, and the "random phone support lady" that came up on the while-installing screen was really really hot (I cannot be the only one to notice this). But I depend on Open Source Software and I know who my friends are and aren't.
Becuase I don't like the deal, I'm not a customer anymore, and wouldn't be involved in Novell/Microsofts little survey. Does this prove my point or prove theirs, or both??
Let's face it. 'Surveys' like these and the ones from Gartner and the wonderful columns from people like Enderle are all to try and soothe the pointy-headed bosses and other execs so they think they know something about something happening in the server rooms of the world.
These sort of 'surveys' and the type of 'research' by these sorts of people/organizations is such a waste anyway. It is the equivalent of Cliff-Notes(TM) for the IT world so it makes perfect sense that some PHB will now come to one of us and say 'Hey, did you hear about the MS/Novell agreement, should make things even better for us eh?'
Geez, get back to work...
Since the actual wording of their agreement is still a secret, how do you know that they're providing any "protection" at all?
Since they've both stated that this agreement will expire in 5 years, why would I want to risk their products 6 years from now? Migrations are expensive.
When was the last time an end-user (not a distributor/vendor) was sued for patent infringement?
Statistically, if an end-user is being sued by Microsoft, that end-user already has a license agreement with Microsoft.
Microsoft does that all the time. Many of those stories are posted on
One of the PRIMARY advantages of Open Source for the end-user is the absence of license requirements. I have to spend time/effort/money making sure that the copies of MS-Office we use are licensed and that I have proof of those licenses. And that proof is acceptable to Microsoft should they ever audit us.
Yet I can deploy Linux without any CAL's or anything. And OpenOffice.org without any per seat requirements. And so on.
So, the "business case" is savings TODAY versus a nebulous threat that has never been exercised against any end-user in the past
Typical. If there was any doubt that the whole MS/Novell thing was an anti-Linux FUD PR campaign to save Vista now that the SCO case is of no use for that anymore, this should remove it. Note that they're using this as a PR opportunity to pressure other Linux vendors to get on the "Microsoft Tax" bandwagon. At all reminiscent of SCO offering Linux licenses for sale? When will Microsoft produce a product that they actually believe in, i.e., that they don't think needs anticompetitive tactics for it to succeed?
President Bush - Great President or the Greatest President ....
Ok, I'll mark you down as 'Great'
It strikes me as a little unusual that nobody is making a bigger deal out of GPLv3 and how it will essentially nullify this deal or at the least put Novell in a very awkward situation. Even if Linus doesn't move the kernel over to v3, you can bet that glibc, gcc, etc, are all going to go that way. Try shipping a distro without either of those two.
Obviously Msft and Novl are more than aware of the licensing change so the question is what sort of insidious deal has msft given Novl in the back room? Truth is, if Novell ships GPLv3 software in SuSe then they stand to be liable for enormous damages, injunctions, etc. The patent indemnification nonsense they got from msft will be more than overshadowed by the ruckus created when Novell ignores the license that a significant section of code it ships is released under. Nothing would make msft happier than another round of FUD about Linux but what gain to Novell? cui bono for this upcoming crime? When asked about GPLv3 the Novl CEO said something casually dismissive like "oh, that license, it's still in development."
Something far more sinister is afoot than just Novl opting to be msft's lap dog.
CommentBot 0.7a running with args "-module irritate,disagree -target random"
This survey is "fertilizer" for "growing" poor decisions. Expect many "concerned citizens" to note that interoperability is not such a bad thing. This "concern" will increase in the form of comments everywhere, editorials on ZDNet, CNet, etc. and will spread like a plague to distract people from Microsoft's real goal: to guarantee their monopoly by destroying the GPL and free software.
All the customers were 'rejoicing' until the gcc and other foundational software went to gpl 3 and Novell had to fork off their own version because their gcc is not gpl 3 compliant.
But they still have their patent agreement!
Unless there are a lot of people who are upset with the MS/Novell deal, why bother with trying to prove "most" people are happy with it. It confirms there's a problem and seems like damage control to me.
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
For my whole life I've been immensely distrustful of any survey or poll that didn't include me in its sample.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
But who would they be angry at if this happened?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
.... it is the "snuggling" afterwards!
Do you have any idea how strong the average female gorilla is!
does anyone else think that the constant mention of Novell and MicroSoft in the same sentences isnt doing Novell [or MicroSoft] any good?
- yummy rootbeer.
According to the survey 'Ninety-five percent approve of the collaboration between Novell and Microsoft,'
Reminds me of how Sadaam Hussein used to get close to a 100% positive vote in Iraqi elections...purely because the electorate knew what would happen to them if he didn't.
Keep trying, Steve. Keep trying.
Looks to me like everybody is using deceptive marketing and BS stories, see here: http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/12/ 1411200 for the sony counterpart.
The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
In Capitalist West 95% of consumers benefit from Microsoft-Novell Customer Support.
In Soviet Union 100% of Helsinki Accords benefit you!
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Cool, then I can migrate to Windows!
Do not trust this signature.
The Microsoft Survey:
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
I have been happily using SuSE for the last several years - ever since it first recognized my partlcular sound card.
:o(
I do not like the "deal" between those two competing corporations. I see no need for Linux users to suffer this so-called improvement in interoperability at the expense of the true freedom of the software.
If I need to be able to network with a Windows PC I simply use Samba - software that will be released under the GPLv3 once that license has been formally published.
Otherwise NFS and FTP serve all my document interoperability needs.
MS *should* fully support the published interoperability standard for Office documents.
It is not right for the tail to wag the dog, and I would expect the ISO to reject Microsoft's application for an additional competing ISO standard. Anything other than this would be, frankly, a mockery of the whole purpose of having an approved standard.
As for Novell... I am reconsidering whether or not I want to continue using SuSE. I would have rather continued using it but I don't think that is now a realistic option due to the cloud that is the Microvell deal now hanging over users of Free software.
Apparrently both of Novell's clients participated in the survey.
Microsoft has shown a track record of being completely untrustworthy - they were even caught faking evidence in a federal court. Microsoft has also been guilty of spreading FUD.
Q: Can you trust any report/study that Microsoft puts out?
A: No
Microsoft can't be trusted for the time of day. Is it any wonder I use Linux and refuse to use Microsoft products in my home and business? Do you really expect Microsoft to publish something that will hurt their business? Pfft.
Only 4 out of 5 people picked A.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
So if 95% of the MS/ Novell customers are happy with the deal, doesen't that mean that the overall customer satisfaction has gone down by 5%?
... that it is not funny.
I'll not give away here the bits of anomity I have left on this site, but most of my posts should make abundantly clear that I am in a position to recommend and ocassionaly buy stuff, including Linux solutions.
I am not amused by the deal, if Novell wants to put a blind on their eyes with marketing bullshit, all the power to them, but there are clients and potential clients out there that are not pleased by this nonsense.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It is very simple. I don't recommed deals with companies with a dubious reputation.
Novell's one is tainted to say the least.
I don't know how some people function in the real world, but for the many posts I see here I get the perception that most people are not diligent when sreening their providers.
Well, that will come back to bite you, one way or another.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.