The Decline of the PS3 Grey Market

Kotaku has a great piece up looking at trends over time in the PS3 grey market. Michael Fahey has been tracking the falling prices for Sony's new console, via sales on eBay and other markers. He called around to stores as well, getting a feel for the number of returns and current availability of the console. His conclusions: "As it turns out my gamer instincts and the threat of hordes of angry readers steered me clear of potential disaster. Aside from a couple brief spikes, there is no way I'd have been able to pull off the television, and I know damn well I would have waited for Christmas like so many others did, only to lose even more. The moral of this story? There's no such creature as a sure thing. The majority of eBay prospectors walked away from this experience with that lesson burned into the back of their brains. My suggestion for the future? If you want to gamble, go to Vegas. If you want to invest, try mutual funds. Leave the video game system buying to the gamers. We'll all be happier for it. "

Comments

Wii on Ebay

[LoverOfJoy]

Now if only the prices would drop for the wii and people started returning them to stores so I could find one.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

People aren't returning Wiis because a) people like them, and b) you can sell them for more than the refund.

Confession: I'm a failed PS3 scalper. I thought I struck gold when the store I was in announced they had three in stock and I got one (Dec 20). Yesterday I was able to return it (the PlayAlbatross 3 as I call it) for a full refund after price on resell sites plummeted to the point where it wouldn't be worth it. Also, amazon wouldn't take sales from new sellers, and craigslist had scalper hunters unjustly flagging scalpers.

Arbitrage isn't as risk-free as they like to make it sound.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[the dark hero]

...or the DS which is said to be grossly back-ordered till late january. :(

Re:Wii on Ebay

[RasputinAXP]

You say "unjustly" as if scalping is a good thing.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

You say "unjustly" as if scalping is a good thing.

I said "unjustly" in the sense that the PS3 listings that were being removed clearly met all of craigslist's rules.

But scalping is a good thing in that it makes it possible for people willing to pay more (rather than spend ages line) able to get one without getting line. If there were no scalpers, people would just hire placeholders. I don't think that would make anyone feel any better.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Cyraan]

I was actually scared with how easy it was to find one, kept thinking something had to go wrong, comet slamming into my car on the way back home maybe. After a mere day and a half of calling around, I found a Super Target that had some in stock, when I got there, there were at least 4 or 5 still in the case, no lines, rushing or anything. If you haven't already, you may want to try calling your local Target(s) if there are any around, they've apparently been getting random shipments in the last few days. If not, Wii Seeker has every Best Buy in my area pegged to be having at least 10+ per store on the 31st, dunno about elsewhere, heard some people say it was the same for them.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

scalping is a good thing in that it makes it possible for people willing to pay more (rather than spend ages line) able to get one without getting line.

The thing is, the fact that the market tanked so quickly means that the vast majority of the people in line WERE the scalpers. Scalpers manufactured the long lines and shortages they tried to profit from, only in this case, the only people to sell to were the other scalpers that were waiting in line to get one because there was no real shortage of units, only the demand created by the scalpers.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

Confession: I'm a failed PS3 scalper. I thought I struck gold when the store I was in announced they had three in stock and I got one (Dec 20).

Well, its actually a good lesson in investing and gambling ... no such thing as a sure thing.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[ir]

Don't like it? Don't buy it. You don't have a right to tell people what they can buy/sell.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[mgabrys_sf]

re:"and craigslist had scalper hunters unjustly flagging scalpers"

Uh - you were scalping and they didn't permit that. How was that "unjust"? I find it highly just. For the rest of you - go inform the police in advance when you sell tickets in front of the ballpark and complain to the arresting officer later.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[freeweed]

Wii shortages are finally starting to slack off, although it's very much a regional thing. I'm hearing more and more stories of available Wiis in some parts of the world. Yet, here we're still seeing 5am lineups every time a new shipment comes in.

10 per store? Ha! We had over 100 people lined up at the local Best Buy the last time a shipment came in.

The popularity of this thing continues to surprise, and quite frankly, scare me. I'm just happy I found a 2nd controller by fluke, as stores here are still sold out of all accessories 5 weeks after release. I've never seen anything like this in 30+ years of console gaming.

I can confirm part of the posted story though - 3 times in the past couple of weeks, while checking for Wii-related goodness, I've been offered a PS3. They'll be sitting on store shelves everywhere by January at this rate.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

Craigslist doesn't prohibit scalping.

Here is the prohibited items list.

Here is the conduct section of the TOS.

Where does it prohibit scalping? Nowhere.

Rather, many craiglist *users* take it upon themselves to get marked-up items removed through flagging.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact you failed and wasted your time as well as tied up your money gives me great pleasure.

I have been tempted to make a fake ebay account just to win PS3 auctions and never pay.

Greed should never be rewarded. I hope ill will befalls you in the future.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[DragonWriter]

I said "unjustly" in the sense that the PS3 listings that were being removed clearly met all of craigslist's rules.

Aside from the "Prohibited" category, which applies to violations of rules, the other ways in which things can be flagged on craigslist aren't supposed to be "rules violations", per se, as much as subjective judgments of appropriateness by users.

But scalping is a good thing in that it makes it possible for people willing to pay more (rather than spend ages line) able to get one without getting line. If there were no scalpers, people would just hire placeholders. I don't think that would make anyone feel any better.

Apparently, from your description, it would make many craiglist users, for one thing, feel better.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[JFMulder]

But scalping is a good thing in that it makes it possible for people willing to pay more (rather than spend ages line) able to get one without getting line.

Actually, I disagree with this. It makes the weathly have a better chance than the regular folks. I thought the United States was the land of equal rights.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[0xdeadbeef]

Don't like it? Don't buy it. You don't have a right to tell people what they can buy/sell.

Actually, I do, as does everyone else. It is a right the owners and participants of Craigslist exercised when they removed the scalpers' posts.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Kelbear]

Definitely unavailable here. In those 3am lineups uou only see the 30-odd people come morning because people find out how many units are available.

What we miss is all the people who came by between 3am-7/8am to get into line only to find that they're already too late and go home. This was the last pre-christmas shipment.

I don't think it'll be possible to buy a Wii through walk-ins in my area(upstate NJ) till at least February.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[caffeinatedOnline]

I live in AZ, where there are no scalper laws... heck, I have seen police direct traffic around cars that have stopped to buy tickets from a scalper!

Re:Wii on Ebay

[nuzak]

> and craigslist had scalper hunters unjustly flagging scalpers.

You bought it with the express purpose of taking advantage of the short supply to get a markup. Whether or not you think scalping is just capitalism at work, what part of this doesn't make you a scalper? Craigslist looks down on scalpers, which is also their choice in a free market.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[sporadic]

Wii's should be pretty easy to find, try Target. I tried to find one before Christmas for my girlfriend's 16 year old daughter, none of the retail stores have one (GameStop, Target, Circuit City, BestBuy, etc.) and I refuse to pay eBay or Craig's List extortion prices. So I ended up making up an "I.O.U. a Wii" certificate for her instead. She got the new Zelda for her GC so she had a new game to play. Next day we stopped by Target (in Oregon) and they had plenty in stock. We were there at 2:30pm and they still had 4 on the shelf. Paid $249.99 for a Wii, no camping, no extortion, and she was happy as can be on the 26th. :)

I still love my PS2 though, even if I don't play games often. God of War is great for stress relief, Kratos kicks butt!

Anyway, Wii's should be a lot easier to find in retail stores now.

Sporadic

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

>I thought the United States was the land of equal rights.

It still is. You have no right to a PS3 anymore than you have a right to Dunkin' Donuts.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[a_nonamiss]

Hahahahahahahaha.....

Equal Rights...

Thanks for the laugh. The wealthy in the US have always had more rights than the poor. Sorry to say it, but it's true. They get better jobs, have access to better schools, have more opportunities. Yeah, everyone's got a story about a poor inner city youth that worked hard, stayed out of trouble and went on to be CEO of a fortune 500 company, but for every one of those, I could find 10,000 stories about a poor inner city youth that went on do jail or was shot to death before his 18th birthday.

Oh, and they don't have to stand in line for video game systems. :)

Re:Wii on Ebay

[RasputinAXP]

I said "unjustly" in the sense that the PS3 listings that were being removed clearly met all of craigslist's rules.

You said "unjustly" because you think it isn't fair that you didn't get the profit you were looking for. Market tanked, and your outlet of last resort rejected you.

At least you got your money back.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Volante3192]

That would be socialism. This is capitalism, and wealth is seperate from rights.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

You said "unjustly" because you think it isn't fair that you didn't get the profit you were looking for

No, asshole, I think it's *unfortunate*, not unfair. The unjust part was people flagging my craigslist listing because they didn't like it, rather than because it didn't meet the TOS.

I respect anyone's right not to bid on my products.

Market tanked, and your outlet of last resort rejected you. At least you got your money back.

Well, it seems my last resort didn't quite reject me, now, did it?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Too Many Secrets]

Maybe you should read the FAQ.

Pay attention to the two questions at the bottom.

The FAQ is maintained by CL employees, therefore it's "official".

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

"please do not" is not the same as "prohibited". Note that it specifically says that they are removed *merely* because some people like to flag them.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Too Many Secrets]

Except CL is all about "please do not" and "please do". That's the whole point. It's a community, not a meat market.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[supabeast!]

It makes the weathly have a better chance than the regular folks.

What's wrong with that? If the wealthy lived the same lives as the lower classes, what would incentvize the lower classes to be more productive? I don't have a Wii because some loser sat around Best Buy all night waiting to buy me one. I have a Wii because a hardworking attorney busted his butt to earn a salary that allowed him to spend less time buying one on eBay than it would have taken just to drive to the nearest Best Buy. Exceptional people deserve to be rewarded for their talent, intelligence, and efforts, not brought down to the level of people who toil at menial work and still expect easy access to everything they want.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

Scalpers manufactured the long lines and shortages

This is the problem with Capitalism in the Long Run, at least with respect to it's ultimate purpose as a method of deciding how to distribute goods. Whether its scalpers interfering with the supply of tickets, Enron turning power plants off, farmers dumping their produce in the trash, grocers allowing it to rot on the shelves, or any of many other examples, Capitalism is increasingly being used as an excuse to destroy goods rather than distribute them.

And why not? As long as distribution of goods is tied to the money one can obtain for it, then artificially creating shortage through the systematic destruction of that good is an excellent idea. The only question is, how long can the law constrain it before anarchy reigns supreme, and people begin burning down houses to raise the value of their house, or destroying competitors' factories to cut competition and supply and raise the value of their own good?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

Craig's List extortion prices.

Sounds like someone else didn't get the memo either.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[brouski]

Oh, and they don't have to stand in line for video game systems. :)

Tell that to John Edwards.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Total_Wimp]

People aren't returning Wiis because a) people like them, and b) you can sell them for more than the refund.

a) Nothing in the article suggests people don't like their PS3s. In fact, the article suggests the opposite conclusion. From my reading of the article, scalpers are returning them not because they don't like them, but because they're entrepreneurs who are only interested in the PS3 as an investment and that investment didn't pan out. However, as soon as the boxes get back in the stores, they're being snapped up again as soon as they arrive. Even on eBay, people are still buying them, they're just not paying as much over list price. I don't blame people for not wanting to pay thousands of dollars for a PS3, but people seem quite willing to pay the price marked on the box or a little bit more.

b) I looked at the SmartBuyer link from the article and found the average selling point for Wii's last week was $301. That's about a 20% markup over retail. SmartBuyer is listing an average selling price for PS3s of $788 for the same time period. That's about a $30 percent markup over retail. To be fair, glancing down the numbers it doesn't look like this weeks average will be the same. The Wii is getting more expensive and the PS3 less, but it's a far cry from selling them on eBay for a loss.

The big picture here is that the Wii is in high demand and so is the PS3. Any talk right now of people generally not wanting PS3s or that the whole world wants to switch to Wiis is only coming from folks who let their emotions run wild instead of looking at the facts. Who knows what the future will hold. It's possible there will be Wii in every household by Christmas 2007. But we're not there yet.

TW

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Entrope]

Alternatively, the aftermarket tanked so quickly because Sony's suggested retail price is reasonably close to the true market value of the thing, and so there's not much room for scalpers to make a dime. There likely are more people willing to pay $600 for a PS3 than there are consoles -- at least through the end of 2006 -- and some of those people are willing to pay significantly more.

Before we see how inventory levels and prices work out over the next few months, it is premature to declare that shortages were artificial or natural.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[writermike]

People aren't returning Wiis because a) people like them, and b) you can sell them for more than the refund.
 
Confession: I'm a failed PS3 scalper. I thought I struck gold when the store I was in announced they had three in stock and I got one (Dec 20). Yesterday I was able to return it (the PlayAlbatross 3 as I call it) for a full refund after price on resell sites plummeted to the point where it wouldn't be worth it. You never wanted it? Did you even try it? Just curious...

Re:Wii on Ebay

[0xdeadbeef]

Being an asshole in a self-policing community sure is a bitch, ain't it?

When people start modding you down because they're sick of your whining, are you going accuse them of censorship too?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[j35ter]

Exceptional people deserve to be rewarded for their talent, intelligence, and efforts, not brought down to the level of people who toil at menial work and still expect easy access to everything they want.

Cut the crap! This type of @"Come First, Serve First" predatory capitalism is the reason many people in the world simply hate westerners.
You guys brought us 9/11, Madrid, London,...
The fact that someone has more money than the other, just means that he had more luck (genes,family,education,...). Rarely is it a sign of superiority.
Although I agree that most "stupid" ones end up poor, I think that your comment just shows how "exceptionally" wrong you are!
OTOH heads like yours roll first, when the poor decide that enough is enough -- Viva la Revolution! :P

Re:Wii on Ebay

[TheMadcapZ]

I picked one up yesterday for retail. Paying more than retail is just retarded. The hard part is finding a Wii. I am still looking for one but I think the shortage will ease early in January.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Leiterfluid]

I'll tell him, alright. I'll tell him to his ass-face. This is the land of opportunity, not equality. Every American has an opportunity to become successful and wealthy if they're willing to work for it. -1 OffTopic (There, I saved the haters the trouble)

Re:Wii on Ebay

[TheGavster]

The poor always kill off the successful in socialist revolutions. They then proceed to wonder why their infrastructure collapses and everyone stays poor (with the exception of the leaders of the revolution, who take to their stolen riches quite happily).

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Dachannien]

Arbitrage isn't as risk-free as they like to make it sound.

Huh? As long as you ditch your PS3 before the return period ends, the only thing you've risked is a little bit of free time, some gas, and maybe some interest on your credit card. And from all indications, for now you can still turn a profit - just not the mammoth gonzo profits you were hoping for.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Keebler71]

I just did a quick alt-f for "PS3" in the Constitution but didn't find anything... sorry.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Lost Engineer]

Yes, you equally have (had?) the right stand in line and wait for a PS3 or to pay someone else to do it for you. Once you get one, you have the right to keep it, return it for a refund, or sell it to the highest bidder. Or did you think someone was supposed to just give you a game system?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[TinyManCan]

As long as distribution of goods is tied to the money one can obtain for it, then artificially creating shortage through the systematic destruction of that good is an excellent idea.

Only until you succeed in raising the price of _your_ products past the point at which others can supply a sufficient volume of goods at a high enough price to turn a profit.

Unless you have a complete and total monopoly (utility companies for example), there is always a chance that others will see the high prices you are charging, and move into your area. The glory of capitalism is that it provides lots of opportunity for companies to move into new product spaces quickly and easily to balance out those who would profit via destruction.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[gutnor]

"what would incentvize the lower classes to be more productive"

Successful not productive.
By being hardworking and very productive, you just increase the chance of being successful under the right circumstances.
Most of the time, you need an opportunity and be able to milk it.
If you father is CEO of a Fortune 500 company, you have plenty of possibilities and only need average effort to be successful.

"Exceptional people deserve to be rewarded for their talent, intelligence, and efforts, not brought down to the level of people who toil at menial work and still expect easy access to everything they want."

Unfortunatly that's not the case. People are rewarded for their success. A top-manager that made his way working 20 hours a day/7 days a week is rewarded the same than a top-manager with more luck and made his way only working 8 hours a day/5 days a week.

There are 6 billions people on earth. Since you compare your intelligence/talent/... to other human being, at least 1 billions people on earth should be worthy enough to have a WII...

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

> Arbitrage isn't as risk-free as they like to make it sound.

Arbitrage is risk-free by definition. Otherwise it would be "speculation" or "trading".

Re:Wii on Ebay

[synaptik]

This is the problem with Capitalism in the Long Run, at least with respect to it's ultimate purpose as a method of deciding how to distribute goods. Whether its scalpers interfering with the supply of tickets, Enron turning power plants off, farmers dumping their produce in the trash, grocers allowing it to rot on the shelves, or any of many other examples, Capitalism is increasingly being used as an excuse to destroy goods rather than distribute them.

The problem here was not a failure of capitalism; the problem was Sony setting the launch price too low. At launch, demand exceeded supply. Whether that demand was from scalpers or legitimate end users is irrelevant. If Sony had said, "our launch price is $3X, but will reduce to $X by $FUTURE_DATE", then tere would be little-to-no scalper activity. Those people willing to pay a huge premium instead of standing in line would have their demand met, since the initial price would be so high as to eliminate the lines.

...farmers dumping their produce in the trash

That isn't the fault of capitalism, it's the fault of government interference in how the market prices goods. If the price of corn is too low for all the sugar farmers to turn a profit, then the problem is too many sugar farmers. And most certainly the solution is not to arbitrarily jack up the price of sugar.

And why not? As long as distribution of goods is tied to the money one can obtain for it, then artificially creating shortage through the systematic destruction of that good is an excellent idea.

There wasn't an artificial shortage of PS3s. There was an artificially low price, given the temporary supply constraints, and number of people who wanted to be early owners.

Perhaps by "artifically creating shortage through systematic destruction of that good" you really meant "artifically creating shortage by enabling scalpers to scalp." (I'm allowing you this, since no one was actually destroying PS3s, AFAIK.) In that case, a drastically higher launch price would have solved that problem.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Megane]

and craigslist had scalper hunters unjustly flagging scalpers.

I've also heard that on craigslist, scalpers are unjustly flagging reports of PS3s available in stores.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Burpmaster]

But scalping is a good thing in that it makes it possible for people willing to pay more (rather than spend ages line) able to get one without getting line. If there were no scalpers, people would just hire placeholders. I don't think that would make anyone feel any better.

It's pretty clear to me in this case that if there were no scalpers, there never would have been a shortage in the first place. All the scalpers did is make it so people had to either wait more than a month or pay a higher price to get a PS3. How are the scalpers making things better for anyone but themselves?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[LKM]

Any talk right now of people generally not wanting PS3s or that the whole world wants to switch to Wiis is only coming from folks who let their emotions run wild instead of looking at the facts

Total_Wimp, please meet Artie MacStrawman.

I don't think anyone ever claimed that nobody wanted a PS3, or that the whole world wanted to switch to Wiis.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[LoverOfJoy]

Next day we stopped by Target (in Oregon)

My sister was told by a kmart official that the people up top decided to keep shipping to the coasts until they stopped selling out and only then ship inland. It seems like I've heard from a lot more people in Washington/Oregon area with experiences of multiple wii consoles on the shelf than out here in Utah. I guess they decided to save on shipping or something. *shrug*

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

Who? The biggest douche in the universe? I thought his fame tanked pretty fast after he was awarded his trophy. Why is he still being talked about?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[LKM]

Here in Switzerland, all stores I frequent still have the empty Wii boxes with "sold out" written on them...

Re:Wii on Ebay

[iabervon]

You're talking about a system you glue to your furniture with a main character who looks like you. It's also not big on speculation, because the target market is mostly not rabid gamers, and normal people are willing to wait a few weeks for systems to be available. So there are probably very few people who got Wiis who didn't actually want them, and few people who want to return them after playing with them.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[AK Marc]

I called every store that carried them and they were all always out. My nearest Target is a few thousand miles away, though they keep saying they'll open one up here sometime soon. So I'm Wiiless, and will be for months. Given the number of people in the lines, and the number that make it here every shipment date, it'll be about 6 months until they sit on the shelves for a day.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

Being an asshole in a self-policing community sure is a bitch, ain't it?

It's not a purely self-policing community: craigslist is certainly *allowing* community policing, but the head of the hierarchy does reserve the right to remove anything -- or re-instate listings that were removed.

And let's keep things in perspective. I didn't call a waitress "sugartits". I didn't camp the passing lane. I offered what I thought was the current market price of a good.

When people start modding you down because they're sick of your whining, are you going accuse them of censorship too?

I don't recall using the term "censorship", but, depending on the context, I would certainly complain about abuse of Slashdot's "policing" system, which is exactly what I was doing with regard to Craigslist. (In fact, abuse of the moderation system is exactly what you'll get if you criticize Linux, which is why I don't explain the basis for my name here.)

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

No, if there were no scalpers, you would *still* miss out on getting a PS3 because of a snot-nosed punk (or a paid lackey), you just wouldn't even have the option of paying the current market price.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

Then by definition, arbitrage doesn't exist, because all transactions involve risk, if for no other reason than another arbitrageur pre-empting you.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[oatworm]

You guys brought us 9/11, Madrid, London,...

We call that "blaming the victim" here - it's sort of like blaming your wife for pissing you off and *making* you hit her. I mean, if she'd simply put out, do the dishes, and not give you flak when you get home...

Besides, do you really want the culture that's blowing up everything to run things? I mean, unless you're a fan of removing just about every right from anybody with a pair of X chromosomes, killing anyone who writes anything that insults your "prophet", and views death not as something to be avoided but, instead, as something to be celebrated, with dozens of virgins and all that... seems to me predatory capitalism is better than THAT alternative, at least.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[UbuntuDupe]

Did you forget listing costs?

Yes, yes you did.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Total_Wimp]

It's not a strawman, it's an obvious exaggeration for dramatic effect, and even then only the part about the Wii. But I'll cut you some slack because I noticed in your comment that you turned my "generally not wanting PS3s" into "nobody wanted a PS3" thus showing you have a good understanding of the usefulness of exageration.

Some Wii fans have been saying there's a general dislike of the PS3 and they have been saying that the PS3 returns are proof that people generally prefer Wiis to PS3s. I've read several posts stating this directly and the grandparent post clearly alludes to it. There's no numerical justification for this and really no justification at all other than a few anecdotal accounts and the desire for it to be true.

Some Wii fans obviously fall into this fantasy and I was just pointing out how incorrect this thinking is. It's not a strawman argument, it's a direct rebut.

TW

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

Die, Tsarist scum! :)

Re:Wii on Ebay

[alienw]

So, you are saying that as a lawyer you are more useful to society than, say, a manufacturing worker or a plumber or even a janitor? Give me a break. Salary != productivity. The exceptionally high salaries paid to doctors and lawyers are mainly a result of their professional lobbies being competent at artificially restricting the supply of new entrants, rather than exceptional abilities required to do the job.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[toleraen]

might wanna try a ctrl-f, you'll probably get better results

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Burpmaster]

Why? The actual demand wasn't that high. Everything I've read indicates that the majority of consoles bought at retail were bought for resale. Let's look at what would happen if there were no scalpers. Systems would not be bought for resale, and the purchases from scalpers would instead be made at retail. With the same number of end users, I can see why you think there would still be a shortage.

But that's if you ignore two facts. First, the consoles are being hoarded by the scalpers. That is, they are being held during the auction. The systems exist, but buyers don't get them until they win an auction and receive the shipment. This is an artificial shortage, and it increases the market price.

Second, the delay in supply caused by scalpers ensures that any demand met by scalpers could have been met by a recent shipment to stores rather than reducing the availability of an earlier shipment. How is getting the first shipment a week late at inflated price better than getting the second shipment a week after launch at retail price?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[pasamio]

Australian guy actually. Started off life in a small McDonald's franchise in Sydney I believe and worked his way up to CEO of the company and then died a month later from a heart attack. Not a bad progression from the bottom of the food chain to the top.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"might wanna try a ctrl-f, you'll probably get better results"

Um... either way, pressing alt+f or ctrl+f and entering 'PS3' on the Constitution will get the same results.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[SirSlud]

That's a false dichotomy; every g8 country, including the states, mixes 'socialism' with 'capitalism', to a largly successful degree, including the states. The parent post isn't exactly enlightening, but this is just rediculous generalism.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[GWBasic]

I got the impression that Sony jacked the price of the PS3 because THEY wanted to make the loot that scalpers normally get. If the PS3 was ~400 retail; you would have been able to easily make a $250 profit.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Lehk228]

and the stores forgot restocking fees, they definitely should have included a 15% restocking fee on non-faulty returns on the PS3

Re:Wii on Ebay

[246o1]

Surely you meant "this is capitalism, and rights are dependent upon wealth"?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[@madeus]

I said "unjustly" in the sense that the PS3 listings that were being removed clearly met all of craigslist's rules.

I think many here would argue it's still just, irrespective of it meeting craigslist rules or not.

But scalping is a good thing in that it makes it possible for people willing to pay more

Alternatively, it make it nigh on impossible for people willing to pay a reasonable price to get hold of one, and so the products (or tickets) go unused, ultimately satisfying very few people (and so being detrimental overall).

I've seen this both at events and with consoles (typically with loads of people then complaining they couldn't get tickets/consoles through offical channels and having witnessed myself items subsequently being withdrawn from eBay or failing to meet minimum bits, and in the case of tickets, loads of scalpers trying to sell tickets at the door to no avail, and the venue being only 3/4 full despite tickets having 'sold out' in the first hour). The 'empty seats' issue being one of the reasons why tickets for major sports events are often so heavily controlled and tied to a name on photo ID these days (due to unused tickets meaning less people attending the event, and so harming sales of food/drink/t-shirts, etc).

Loads of scalpers end up with excess goods (consoles, tickets, etc) - and potential customers (gamers, music fans, sports fans) end up pissed off and can't buy what they wanted. The summary is right, it's not a good way to make money, if it was I think it's likely event ticket scalpers would not resemble homeless people (as they invariably do). It's seems evident that most people who feel the need to result to gambling on being able to resell consoles as a way to make money are not comfortably off either (if they are, then they are irredeemably greedy).

It only makes money for a very select few, as we've simply seen that there are not tens of thousands of people willing to pay insane prices for consoles rather than wait two months, hell there are barely hundreds of people willing to pay significantly over the RRP, yet scalpers screw up by vastly overestimating demand. "Oh look, that one guy made 10,000 USD selling one on eBay! I should be able to get that too!" (and thinking they are hard done by and blaming others when it doesn't work for them).

e.g. Saying things like "The concert was promoted poorly", or "the team/band/console is no good" rather than thinking they were undone by their own greed.

I saw my I got my X-Box 360 bundle in a store in the middle of London for 380 UKP (IIRC) about a month after they came out. Even though there were no units in store anywhere else, it sat there for a week before I went 'Screw it, I'm thinking of getting an HDTV next month or so, may as well get one now if it's only 80 UKP more, it's not like I'm hard up'. The same story is repeating itself now with the Wii and PS3, in that people arn't willing to pay much over the RRP and would rather just wait.

There is currently a Wii in the same shop also for sale at 360 UKP (bizzarely enough). Normal RRP is 180 UKP, can't get them in any other shops, it has been there for two weeks just being ignored (frankly even I'm surprised, nearly bought it myself). This is a shop that scalps professionally, right in the middle of London (Zone 1, TCR) and people are not paying it much attention even at Christmas. Looks like people are waiting for more stock (which will invariably be around at the end of Jan). They also have a PS3, but it's an import version (no idea what crazy price it's selling at, or if it's even for sale).

If there were no scalpers, people would just hire placeholders.

I doubt that. Only the very wealthy (or incredibly determined and fiscally irresponsible ;-) could afford to have someone do that for a reasonable amount of money - or you'd have to give the job to a person who needed the money so badly most people would be worried about them doing something like scalping i

Re:Wii on Ebay

[riceboy50]

You would be incorrect, haha. There are always a few lunatic zealots in every crowd.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[SophtwareSlump]

Maybe I'm a just a statistical anomaly, but I've been looking for a Wii since December 7th. I've waited in line on a few Sunday mornings, and have hit all kinds of stores at really strange hours and still no luck finding one.

In that time, I've seen probably 20+ PS3s just sitting on the shelves. At everywhere from Best Buy to Meijer to one of the guys in EBGames soliciting me to buy a returned PS3.

Maybe it's just a regional thing. I'm in the Midwest.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

Please do not feed the trolls :)

Re:Wii on Ebay

[j35ter]

How 'bout bringing down democratically elected governments, bombing countries who have done no harm to you, "detaining" people *you* suspect to be terrorists,...
the list is very long and there are a lot of arguments on both sides; still I can't see your arguments justified by a faulty logic (we are smarter than them, so we have a right to be wealthier) They could use just the same rhetoric on you (We'll bomb a few skyscrapers, they'll get scared like shit, bomb whomever they get first - except us - and become a dictatorship by the will of their scared people)
Prego?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[j35ter]

True!<br>
I never said that this is a successful way for the poor to get their share, it is just a consequence of poor leadership. They wont get richer, they'll just get even

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Total_Wimp]

Just out of curiosity, did you just see the boxes on the shelf or did you know them to be in stock and not selling because of a conversation with the retailer, like the guy you mentioned from EBGames?

I ask this because I saw them on the shelf of the local Toys R Us and they were just empty boxes for display. I'm not saying this is what you saw, just asking.

Thanks,
TW

Re:Wii on Ebay

[644bd346996]

Anybody who buys a PS3 could also buy it for twice the price without going into poverty. Scalping is simply a matter of companies not reacting to supply and demand changes. Sony could have sold PS3s at a profit for the first week, but then too many people would have realized how ridiculous the whole console market is right now. Rather than sell the PS3 at the fair market value, Sony chose to sell it at a constant (lower) price, in the hopes that they would profit from sheer market share or something. They (Sony) are now in the process of failing to make the PS3 a success.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[644bd346996]

The socialist revolutions are almost always triggered by the rich putting artificial limitations on the poor's ability to work their way to the top.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you Captain Obvious!

Re:Wii on Ebay

[644bd346996]

This case is odd in that the price most consumers are willing to pay is well below the cost of the item. The laws of supply and demand doomed this situation to fail from the start. If you aren't willing to pay at least cost for an item, economics says you don't get one. People are only getting PS3s because Sony is not acting entirely rationally.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[TheGavster]

I'm not arguing that revolution is not often in order. What I'm arguing is that if you want to actually improve things, don't have the socialists run the revolution. Batista's government was not a good one, but Castro was probably not what most people were looking for either.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[sjames]

I doubt that. Only the very wealthy (or incredibly determined and fiscally irresponsible ;-) could afford to have someone do that for a reasonable amount of money - or you'd have to give the job to a person who needed the money so badly most people would be worried about them doing something like scalping it for a bit more and subsequently turning round and saying (lying) "Sorry, I couldn't get one" (and possibly "but I hear I can source one for $$$ more").

There is actually plenty of prescident for hiring placeholders in some form or another. A zillion years ago, when there was camping for concert tickets it was quite common for those near the front of the line to agree to buy tickets for those further back in turn for a fairly reasonable mark-up. This was somewhat different from scalping since the person near the front was going to be in line anyway and bought the tickets 'on consignment' rather than facing risk and so the mark-up was generally substantially smaller than a professional scalper's markup. Rather than being desperate for the money, the camper just got aa good way to afford a few concerts a year.

The problem comes in when it turns professional and the scalper needs to cover living expenses and losses when the speculation doesn't pay off rather than 'cool, now I can get a teeshirt too'. Of course the camper reduced economic friction by making it easier to get tickets for a small added cost at a time when you couldn't just get them online while the scalper increases friction by creating more scarcity and then leveraging it for an obscene markup.

Scalping PS3s is a bit different than tickets since unlike a concert, you can just wait an extra month or 2 for the PS3 and Sony will keep making more.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[geminidomino]

>I thought the United States was the land of equal rights.
 
It still is. You have no right to a PS3 anymore than you have a right to Dunkin' Donuts. Or due process of law. When it comes to lawyers, don't you know you get what you pay for?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[Hackie_Chan]

Wrong. Socialism is equality of outcomes.

Both Republicans and Democrats agree on equality of opportunity. The big question is: what constitutes equal opportunity?

Democrats believe that it's through positive liberty by having the government aid the people.
Republicans believe that it's through negative liberty by having the government do the least possible.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[jackbird]

I got one Saturday at a record store in a mall in the middle of a major city, after someone in line at Gamestop tipped me off. They had plenty (although they required a 2nd controller and game purchase and were out of nunchuks), and had only sold 2 that day by mid-afternoon. I would never have thought to look there, which probably explains why they had them.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[ElleyKitten]

I don't have a Wii because some loser sat around Best Buy all night waiting to buy me one. I have a Wii because a hardworking attorney busted his butt to earn a salary that allowed him to spend less time buying one on eBay than it would have taken just to drive to the nearest Best Buy.

Wouldn't it be both? Wiis don't magically appear on eBay, someone had to go to the store and get them. And what's with this "a hardworking attorney" crap? Did Daddy buy your Wii for you? Why don't you go get a job and stop bitching that other people can get the same things as you?

Re:Wii on Ebay

[SophtwareSlump]

Nope, they were actual units. Usually behind the glass at Target or Meijer, or just sitting in a pile at Best Buy. The first time I walked in Toys R Us and saw all the Wii boxes, I thought I hit the jackpot. But they were empty display boxes.

Re:Wii on Ebay

[ufpdom]

Oh How true how true. I remember last friday browsing through ebay and it took 118 pages before actually finding a "Playstation" searched item that wasnt a PS3. The shortage was created with people intent on making money. Now given that you pay $600 + avg of 8% Sales tax. Then when you hock it on ebay you'll get dinged about 3% plus any paypal fees. The only way to break above water is to take a money order or direct bank payment. The only person who could make a profit was 1 target employee who's receipt I saw and he got his 10% off discount which saved him $60. Now I LOL at all the PS3s stacked up at best buys as I travel around the country. Now on to the Wii. Granted that there isn't as many Wii's on ebay as there are PS3s last time I checked. At least half of these people bought it with the intent of actually playing it vs. making a profit. I just LOL at all the people who are attempting to capitalize on this 'shortage'. The Wiimotes are selling for $49.99 on avg on ebay. Personally thats alot of trouble to make $10 - FEEs, especially as I see Wiimotes at Bestbuy for $39.99. So I wonder how long people can hang on to these consoles before they return it. Reason for return? No one wanted to buy it from Ebay. Note to future scalpers. You've already failed!

exaggerated

[Anonymous Coward]

a 100 dollar profit is still a profit, this article makes it seem like these people are losing money on the system

Re:exaggerated

[mgabrys_sf]

Well, I know a few ebay postings where the sellers were grousing on having to "re-post" the system for sale. So yes, they're getting hit with the cost of putting the post on eBay in addition to the system. If they withdraw it and never sell it - they took a bigger loss, and one that's not recoupable at the retailer-return level. Karma - gotta love it.

Re:exaggerated

[UbuntuDupe]

But $100 is not the profit. It's the net over retail + sales tax. Figure in listing costs, risk (of scammers, paypal disputes), the fact that you have to front a big chunk of capital, and the time you'll have to put in (listing, taking pictures, shipping), and it's a losing proposition.

Re:exaggerated

[Guppy06]

"a 100 dollar profit is still a profit, this article makes it seem like these people are losing money on the system"

Even assuming they get to pocket all that $100 after eBay fees and the like, making that $100 required an investment of both $600 as well as a great deal of time and effort (standing in line, preparing the auction, relisting and revising the auction, etc.) that, when all is said and done, isn't looking all that much better than some minimum wage job. I can make $100 in one night delivering pizza, and it doesn't cost me $600 to do it.

Re:exaggerated

[Harlockjds]

but a 100$ profit is laughable, esp if they had to spend any time at all to get said system.

Some people prob made less than minimum wage for their time camping for the system, posting it on ebay, dealing with prank bidders and shipping said unit.

Re:exaggerated

[safiel]

Ebay fees are actually pretty high, especially on an expensive item like this. You're looking at about $25 in ebay fees (5.25% of the initial $25.00 ($1.31), plus 3.00% of the remaining + initial listing price). If the person pays through paypal (depending on where the money is comming from) you are probably looking at another $24 in paypal fees (1.9% to 2.9% + $0.30 for non-credit cards). Basically there goes half your profit.

Re:exaggerated

[2nd Post!]

If you earn $20 an hour, 5 hours of work nets you $100 in profit.

If it took you 6 hours standing in line to get a PS3, you actually lost money because you spent more time to earn the same amount of money.

What is worse is if you spent 16 hours in line, put it online, and waited 3 days to make $100. You just, essentially, earned yourself $1 an hour.

You can make more money buy taking the $900 you spent on the console, buying say TM stock or AAPL stock or some other "guaranteed" win in the next year and just letting the money grow. Apple, for example, if bought earlier this year at $60, now worth $85, would have given you $25 per share growth or $225 profit at no effort.

Re:exaggerated

[Anonymous Coward]

Average street value of 1oz. pretty decent marijuana: $300
Average street value of 1/8th oz. (dime sack) of the same pot: $50
With the same six hundred dollars one can make $200 dollars profit while avoiding tax, ebay fees, shipping etc.
Console scalping = waste of time

Re:exaggerated

[geminidomino]

Average street value of 1oz. pretty decent marijuana: $300
Average street value of 1/8th oz. (dime sack) of the same pot: $50
With the same six hundred dollars one can make $200 dollars profit while avoiding tax, ebay fees, shipping etc.
Console scalping = waste of time
 
  Having your head bashed in and your house seized by cudgel-wielding proto-facists: Priceless.

good article

[mgabrys_sf]

I liked the disclaimers on hard-numbers etc, but it did give an idea of what the retail action is as well as the charting of prices. For those who want to wait until prices fall on the PS3, I suggest checking the price curves on the PS2. Here's a hint: They didn't move for over a year. You've got a long - LONG wait. Sony after taking a loss on intitial units will take the profits on the hardware as long as they can when they emerge.

Still - cheaper than the Atari 2600 / VCS on an inflation adjusted dollar bla bla bla. All I know is it can knock 4000 dollars worth of computers I have sitting in front of me out of the ballpark graphicswise. Once some decent games emerge I'll be heading to the retailer myself to get one. Probably around the time I finish Zelda for the Wii (geez it's huge).

Re:good article

[drinkypoo]

For those who want to wait until prices fall on the PS3, I suggest checking the price curves on the PS2. Here's a hint: They didn't move for over a year.

If I were going to buy a PS3 - which I am not, because I am boycotting Sony and making sure to tell everyone why (more on this later) - then I would be happy to wait a year, so some good games could come out for the system.

I already have a PS2, like practically every other gamer in America, so the PS2 games aren't any kind of attraction.

Re:good article

[jonnythan]

"All I know is it can knock 4000 dollars worth of computers I have sitting in front of me out of the ballpark graphicswise."

Does that $4000 computer have a $3300 case?

It's trivial to build a $1000 gaming computer that is significantly better than a PS3. Get an 8800GTS, a cheap Core Duo processor and mobo, 2GB of RAM, and a cheapo 160GB hard drive and you're in business.

Re:good article

[Anonymous Coward]

"All I know is it can knock 4000 dollars worth of computers I have sitting in front of me out of the ballpark graphicswise."

That shouldn't be so, unless you spent those 4000 dollars several years ago. A $4000 PC nowadays has two graphics cards, each of which is a generation ahead of the one in the PS3. It also has 8 times as much system RAM and three times the video RAM (per card). It can display higher quality graphics than the PS3, and at higher resolutions.
If tech specs don't tell you then compare the two yourself. On the same screen a modern high-end PC should easily produce better looking graphics than Resistance or Motorstorm.

Not that I'm seriously suggesting that spending $4000 on a game box is a good idea. It's crazy. Even $600 or $400 is a hell of a lot for a game system. My favourite console at the moment is the DS. I'm writing this post because you're apparently misinformed.

Re:good article

[sgt.greywar]

There is no use trying to give facts to fanbois. All they hear is someone failing to echo that "PS3 roxxors OMG" and they just start foaming at the mouth.

Re:good article

[Anonymous Coward]

Look closer jonnythan, he poster said "4000 worth of computers", meaning more than one computer. Probably has 20 to 40 el cheapo dells, all of which have the power of a Pixelation Station 2. ;)

Re:good article

[huckda]

The Atari 2600 had better games too!

Re:good article

[Pluvius]

Two reasons why the PS3 won't be like the PS2 in this regard:

1. $300 for the PS2 was thought of as a bit expensive. $600 for the PS3 is thought of as completely ridiculous. Sony's not going to be able to make money on the PS3 if no one is buying it.

2. While the PS2 was slightly expensive for a whole load of reasons, about a third of the cost of the PS3 is in one component, the BluRay drive. This is a new technology and like all new technologies, it will drop in cost very rapidly.

It's true that the price drop likely won't come until the next holiday season, but that's because of the way electronics sales work, not because Sony wants to hold off on it. And when it does come, it will likely be quite large.

Rob

Re:good article

[MBGMorden]

Well he did say "$4000 worth computers".

Perhaps that $4000 worth encompasses 15 different systems, none of which can best the PS3? ? ? No?

Re:good article

[xero314]

I'm not going to try and say the PS3 is the the most powerful machine on the planet or anything like that, but it is still a better deal, cost to power ratio, than a PC.

It's trivial to build a $1000 gaming computer that is significantly better than a PS3. Get an 8800GTS, a cheap Core Duo processor and mobo, 2GB of RAM, and a cheapo 160GB hard drive and you're in business.

It is trivial if you are not trying to build a comparable machine. Taking from your example and making it even comparable you end up getting a far more expensive machine than you are talking about. You can't use a "cheap Core Duo" since you are looking to compete with a multi core 3.2 ghz processor (hard to get an exact comparison) so go with a 3.2 Ghz Core 2 Extreme which will run around $950, tack on atleast another $200 (you would probably end up higher for a decent board) for the mother board and another $100 for a case and cooling system (I'm being generous here). Now add $200 or more for video (the closest thing I could find was a geforce 7900 128m which is clocked 50mhz less than the PS3s). So at this point you are looking at over $1500 (with me saving you over $300 on the video card) and we haven't even touch on input, storage, memory or drives (the $750 in blu-ray drive).

In the end I guess it depends on what you mean by "significantly better." Your set up does include a graphics processor that can handle higher resolutions as well as more polygons, mappings and transformations, but has a siginificantly slower CPU, which is important for Physics, AI and other game mechanics. Your set up also includes no way to play any games on it, let alone actualy getting the games there. These little things (Keyboard, mouse, Other controlle, Network adapter (wired and wireless), High density Media Drive) all add up to significantly more money that you think.

Re:good article

[Manmademan]

It's trivial to build a $1000 gaming computer that is significantly better than a PS3. Get an 8800GTS, a cheap Core Duo processor and mobo, 2GB of RAM, and a cheapo 160GB hard drive and you're in business.

not to turn this into a PC vs. Console debate, but even IF you put all that together, you will have a grand total of zero games designed to take advantage of the strength of your system. (and of course, zero ability to play blu-ray films, but let's not go there right now)

in contrast, every game released on the Ps3 is designed to take full advantage (or as much as possible) of it's CPU and processor. To dumb it down a bit, The Ps2 is pumping out games like God of War, FFXII, and Gran Turismo 4 on a system consisting of a 300mhz processor with 32 megs of ram. Think you could get those results on a PC with even double those hardware specs? Think again. PC vs. Console hardware is not a 1/1 comparison.

Re:good article

[poot_rootbeer]

It's trivial to build a $1000 gaming computer that is significantly better than a PS3.

The hardware may have "significantly" better specs, but the software running on it isn't going to be significantly better.

Console software still has a lot more potential for optimization than general-purpose computer software, due to the much smaller number of hardware configurations to target. A PC game has to support hundreds of combinations of CPU, GPU, sound card, etc. -- the only way to do that is to abstract everything behind common APIs and code to those. It works, broadly, but odds are good the full potential of any given hardware combination will never be used.

A console game only has to support the one console it is compiled for, thus routines can be highly optimized for the specific hardware known to be in the console. Even titles written for multiple platforms with substantial hardware differences can be optimized at compile time rather than runtime, maintaining the potential for better performance.

Re:good article

[joshetc]

PCs can be overclocked. You can easily get any core2duos to clock higher than the extreme (mine was ~$300 for the e6600, cheaper now I think) it clocks at 3.3 on stock air and barely over stock volts.

Not to mention how many options you have as far as operating systems and other applications. Anything you can do on a PS3 can be done on a core2duo + 8800GS + 2gb ram homebrew rig. Not the other way around though.

Re:good article

[drinkypoo]

I am boycotting Sony and making sure to tell everyone why (more on this later)

Okay so replying to myself is sad but I realized I forgot to give the more on this - everyone here already knows why so I won't go over that part but we all need to remember that if you are at all like me, people are asking you what to buy and why. Make sure to tell these people not to buy Sony, and why! Collectively we (geeks) made a huge difference in the whole DivX thing (the DVD player that phoned home, not the MPEG4-based video codec) and we can do it again with Sony. Make sure to tell people the many reasons not to buy that Vaio, that PS3, that Sony Ericsson mp3 cellphone.

Re:good article

[EmperorKagato]

"You can't use a "cheap Core Duo"
Yes you can.

BFG Physics processor: $206 (Newegg.com)
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 Conroe 1.86GHz will suffice for $190 and a 2.99Ghz Core 2 Duo goes for around $500
Mother Boards: no more than $150
HD DVD drives: buy a Xbox360 drive. Which works with the PC ($200 max)
Cases cost $35 and your cooling system can still be inexpensive.
SATA 160GB are cheap and SATA 250GB 300mb/s are very inexpensive: $60-$90 per drive (Microcenter / Newegg)
Memory: No more than $150 spent.
The graphics card he recommended is $410 (Newegg.com)

You can compete with a PS3 in the sense that most games developed on a windows platform use no more than 2 processors unless it was designed to be able to use more than 2 or more than 2 and a physics processor.

64-bit processors do not struggle with Floating Point calculations and AI has been around since Populus.

Re:good article

[nebosuke]

You can't really compare PCs to a console by directly comparing superficial hardware specs like clock speed. Just look at the PS2 for obvious examples. E.g., do you see any 300mhz PCs with 32mb shared/4mb dedicated vid ram with a 150mhz graphics card playing games that look like FF12? Pure hardware-hardware comparisons fail to account for the fact that you can optimize the living crap out of console games because you've got a well-defined static hardware target. It's not an exaggeration to say that you can push a console to play games that would otherwise require a PC with over an order of magnitude greater technical specs.

Re:good article

[xero314]

Anything you can do on a PS3 can be done on a core2duo + 8800GS + 2gb ram homebrew rig.

Except play PS 2 or 3 Games or Program a Cell Processor, but I'm probably just being picky. (Heck without a $750 blu ray drive on the homebrew rig you can't even view Blu Ray movies).

To be perfectly honest, other than where specific software is concerned (i.e. specific OS), I can't see what you can do on your homebrew rig that you can't do on a PS3 (even your homebrew rig will have limitations on software, unless you have yours somehow runing Amiga OS 4).

I'm just saying making a comparable machine will cost you far more than a PS3 cost and when you are talking about a machine to play games and only games, the PS3 is a fraction of the cost of a comparable general purpose computer.

I would also bet it's possible to overclock a Cell Proceesor as well, just might take more work.

Re:good article

[PinkPanther]

Make sure to tell people the many reasons not to buy ...

...and those would be?

Seriously...those would be?

I'm sure my /.ism sense is tingling...but what are these reasons that justify sending the nerd army into the boycott field?

Re:good article

[xero314]

First of all I never said you couldn't put together a resonable game machine for 3 times the cost of a PS3, just not a comparable one. Even the one you just mentioned has less media capacity, Slower bus speeds, less total processing cores, etc.

Interesting Idea using the Physics processor (which is basically a GPU dedicated to physics instead of graphics), but could you supply a list of games designed to use that physics processor?

Now what we need to do is take your cheap game rig (which looks like it will be around $1500 complete) hook it up to an HD TV and then in 5 years compare to quality of games that will run on it vs. the games that will run on the PS3. In 5 years modern games won't even run on the machine you are talking about building, yet PS3 games always will. Games will become more and more optimized for the PS3 hardware where as in the general purpose computer realm developers will expect more powerful machines to be purchased so no need to optimize.

Re:good article

[drinkypoo]

I'm sure my /.ism sense is tingling...but what are these reasons that justify sending the nerd army into the boycott field?

There are many and varied reasons but the top reasons right now are a) rootkit b) DRM. Some other very good reasons from ages slightly gone by include suing Bleem!, and suing Lik-Sang in so many places that they could not possibly fight them. If you are a gamer, then you pretty much had to love Lik-Sang because not only were they the cheapest and best place to get all kinds of doodads, but they actually paid to have people design and manufacture gadgets for which there was a lot of demand among gamers. If you loved Lik-Sang, you pretty much have to hate Sony.

Other reasons you might consider, which are more subjective, are the incredible arrogance of suggesting that a $600 game machine is "too cheap", or that Sony is utterly unable to produce a laser unit that can withstand any abuse whatsoever which is seriously sad considering that they invented the fucking CD (along with Philips.)

Re:good article

[EmperorKagato]

20 Game Titles Announced for AGEIA PhysX in 2006(taken from http://www.bfgtech.com/physx/index.htm):

        * Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter

        * Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends

        * Bet on Soldier: Blood Sport

        * Cell Factor

        * City of Villains

        * Unreal Tournament 2007

        * Gunship Apocalypse

        * Sacred II

        * Loki

        * Dogtag
        * Fallen Earth

        * Crazy Machines 2

        * Arena Online

        * Diabolique
        * Warhammer MMORPG

        * Eye of the Storm

        * KARMA

        * Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

        * Alpha Prime

"In 5 years modern games won't even run on the machine you are talking about building, yet PS3 games always will. Games will become more and more optimized for the PS3 hardware where as in the general purpose computer realm developers will expect more powerful machines to be purchased so no need to optimize."

Lol. In 5 years there is a high chance that modern games will run on this rig.

I bet you're wondering why.

Re:good article

[mgabrys_sf]

Breaking it down (and yes one computer is a couple of years old) a g5 tower, a one month top of the line intel macbook, and a (one year old) mac mini (which has better video than newer mac minis). Apple's video architecture is anemic at best. The games ported are top-heavy beyond top heavy and sluggish. Doom3 is a joke on the G5. None of these boxes which have more than paid for themselves in the service in doing digital video and hardcore graphics work (including 3d) can't chug a FART with games. My clients aren't going to be non-mac (some) anytime soon, and the others don't merit the outlay to go Wintel (plus I'm too busy to fuck around with all the spyware and general crap that just consumes BILLABLE HOURS to go Windows).

So yes - I'm stuck at the Quake III engine level at present and would like a non-1000 / 1500 dollar solution to play PC games. That would be the PS3 - sorry to piss off the haters.

Re:good article

[funkify]

As compelling as those reasons are, they don't seem to be compelling enough to cause you to boycott the Playstation 2 which you stated that you already own, and you alluded to purchasing even more games for.

Re:good article

[mgabrys_sf]

I don't know anyone who'd trade their Wii and Zelda for a VCS and adventure - but it's fun to think about. Obviously you're joking of course, but if you weren't - you sir - would be among the hardest of the hardcore.

Re:good article

[trdrstv]

I don't know anyone who'd trade their Wii and Zelda for a VCS and adventure - but it's fun to think about. Obviously you're joking of course, but if you weren't - you sir - would be among the hardest of the hardcore.

A Wii and Zelda for a VCS and Adventure ? A person would have to be mad to make such a trade! If you were to offer a VCS and 'Combat' however...

Re:good article

[mgabrys_sf]

I hope so but given the margins pounding that Sony will be tempted to shore-up, I can't see a price drop unless demand goes into the toilet. Once some unforseen video-crack title emerges I expect all hell to break lose. My nomination is a new title being developed in Australia called LA Noir, which not only has the chops graphically, it screams movie-immersion far beyond GTA3/Vice City/San Andreas. Plus I'm a sucker for a good late-40s period game that has jazz from the likes of Charlie Parker. Sony has enough publishers to push the wild-card option. For all the also-rans and incrimental franchieses, there's one group that will use that as an opportunity to blow them away.

Granted GTA wasn't a wholly-origonal franchise, but the game that appeared in Oct 2001 - GTA3 created a genre. That's the trick, and I'm confident that some group is looking to do it again. I haven't seen Nintendo leaning to this in spite of the controller. Zelda is great - but the control scheme (what little of it that was added) feels so tacked on, I hardly point the darn wiimote at the screen. Mostly because the fairy cursor is annoying (can it be turned off? I can't find an option for it). Plus I"m sorry casual gamer-marketing be damned-this Zelda outing has the most convoluted control scheme EVER. Geez - I can't count the number of times I toggled my damn inventory when I didn't want to. The rest of the Wiimote centric games seem as dated as flash inspired mini games. I'm hopeful, but I don't see a Mario 64 or Zelda 64 on the horizon yet (those were fanastic leaps in interface and immersion).

Re:good article

[mgabrys_sf]

A slashdot boycott of sony would be as effective as a slashdot campeign for the movie firefly, or snakes on a plane..

no wait...

Re:good article

[EmperorKagato]

There are games optimized for certain series of graphics cards.

Re:good article

[justchris]

The reason the PS2 took so long to drop in price was because Sony could sell it for $300 for a long time. Now that the launch rush and Holiday are over, it remains to be seen whether the general public will actually pay $600 for a gaming machine.

Although admittedly, it's been over a year for the 360 and it hasn't seen a manufacturer price drop, and it hasn't been tracking much better than the original Xbox, so maybe we'll still have to wait a year.

Re:good article

[ClamIAm]

Sony after taking a loss on intitial units

Has a Sony employee ever confirmed this? They didn't? Oh, OK.

Seriously, every time they release a console, people scream at the top of their lungs that Sony is losing so much money you wouldn't even believe it you guys seriously don't you believe me?? Give it a rest: nobody knows how much it actually costs Sony to make the damn things, except for Sony themselves. And they aren't telling.

Re:good article

[Lehk228]

it's actually a single 486DX, they sure were expensive back in the day

Re:good article

[Lehk228]

the way the PS3 is doing, in 5 years sony will have cut their losses in console gaming and their remaining staff will be making games for the next nintendo and microsoft systems

Re:good article

[Sigma 7]

not to turn this into a PC vs. Console debate, but even IF you put all that together, you will have a grand total of zero games designed to take advantage of the strength of your system.

Just crank up the resolution and display settings. Try running games at 1600x1200 with 8xAA and 4xAF - even if it doesn't max out the video card, it will come quite close. Alternativly, run FRAPS, which will max out your system when combined the game you are playing with.

BTW, games are not supposed to be designed to max out modern systems. Doing so causes a risk of overloading the system in "extreme" situations where there are a few more enemies than normal. Usually, this results in processing lag or framerate drops, but other results are possible.

Re:good article

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, thanks for the information. But you really shouldn't even be mentioning Macs in a gaming discussion (apart from intel-based towers) - complaining that $4000 of Mac doesn't do games as well as a PS3 is like complaining that your tractor isn't a good juicer. Or that the PS3 doesn't run Keynote as well as a Mac.

If you want to play "PC games" but don't want an actual PC then you should consider the xbox 360 too - it's the console with all the PC ports. Or perhaps you're a Microsoft "hater"? Well, they are dicks...

Re:good article

[xero314]

the way the PS3 is doing, in 5 years sony will have cut their losses in console gaming and their remaining staff will be making games for the next nintendo and microsoft systems Because that's what buisnesses do when they are selling products faster than they can produce them and produce the best selling console, not only currently, but of all time (The PS 2). It'll take more than a month and a few post on nerd centric sites to bring down the PS line.

Re:good article

[Sigma 7]

In 5 years modern games won't even run on the machine you are talking about building, yet PS3 games always will.

In five years, you probably want to replace that Playstation 3 with the Playstation 4. Whether it is general wear (i.e. components stop working after a few years), damage (e.g. electrical spike that somehow skips past a surge protector), or planned obsolescense (e.g. publishers stop producing games for the PS3), your old console will either die or only be useful for games that you already own.

where as in the general purpose computer realm developers will expect more powerful machines to be purchased so no need to optimize.

Optimization is still mandatory for general purpose computers. An example of an unoptimized game is Sanity: Aiken's Artifact, which processes lightmaps whenever the level is loaded - sometimes taking 2-3 minutes even if you have a modern computer. (These is the same game that has sometimes Levitation drop out prematurly, causing an insta-kill.)

Likewise, optimization is also required if you enter extreme circumstances. For example, the Cossacks series has a relativly high unit limit - using a stock pathfinding algorithm would kill the game very rapidly due to the large maps and large armies.

Re:good article

[HappySqurriel]

It's true that the price drop likely won't come until the next holiday season, but that's because of the way electronics sales work, not because Sony wants to hold off on it. And when it does come, it will likely be quite large.

The price drop may come next holiday season (or in mid 2008) but I suspect that it won't be all that large for a couple of reasons. The main reason is that Sony has never (really) competed on Price. Consider the PSP which has been selling far worse than the Nintendo DS since the DS Lite was launched; most people would argue that Sony should drop the price of the $199 PSP to be closer to the $129 DS Lite but Sony hasn't. If you look at the history of Sony products, they have never worried too much about selling a product at a far higher price then their competition.

The other reason why you wouldn't see too big of a price drop is that it offends customers who have bought your product. Consider how you would feel if you bought a PS3 in September for $600 and in November it was priced at $300 or $400. Microsoft ended up doing exactly this in Europe with the original Xbox and was forced to give away games to people who had previously bought the system to save face.

Essentially, don't expect more than a $100 (maybe up to $150) price drop per year on the PS3 ...

Re:good article

[xero314]

In five years, you probably want to replace that Playstation 3 with the Playstation 4

5 years is less than the sony lifecycle of a console which is around 6 - 8 years. Even the other manufactures try to achive a 5 year cycle. So yes, after 5 years you will need to upgrade, but you have a full five years before you will have to upgrade to get the latest and greatest games.

Optimization is still mandatory for general purpose computers

Optimization on any platform is target toward the average system in that category. For a game console that average stays the same over the 5+ year life cycle so all games target the same minimum and recomended hardware. General purpose computers average hardware increases monthly, with faster CPUs, GPUs, Memory, Bus, etc, being released regularly. After about 2 years what was once average no longer meets minimum requirements for top of the line games (yes some producers still make games that run on 10 year hardware but they are few and far between). Your example of Sanity is a classic illustration of this effect being taken a bit to far. The game was designed for hardware either did not exists, or was not reasonably priced, by the time the game was release. This happens fairly regularly in the General purpose world, but never (or very very rarely) in the console world.

Re:good article

[Luthair]

Now what we need to do is take your cheap game rig (which looks like it will be around $1500 complete) hook it up to an HD TV and then in 5 years compare to quality of games that will run on it vs. the games that will run on the PS3. In 5 years modern games won't even run on the machine you are talking about building, yet PS3 games always will. Games will become more and more optimized for the PS3 hardware where as in the general purpose computer realm developers will expect more powerful machines to be purchased so no need to optimize.

While the graphical quality of console games does improve over their lifespan, in the past they have generally not keep pace with PC games.

Re:good article

[mgabrys_sf]

I'm a noise hater actually. The PS2 was noisy as hell. The xbox360 is even worse. I'll take some silence since I can't crank my systems to ungodly volume levels (lofts play hell with acoustics and neighbors).

Re:good article

[xero314]

While the graphical quality of console games does improve over their lifespan, in the past they have generally not keep pace with PC games.

They have in terms of cost. In 5 years the PS3 will cost less than $200 while a $200 PC may not even exist let alone play the current games. But my point had nothing to do with that. It had to do with the fact that in 5 years to play a game of the quality of what is coming out on the consoles at that time will take alot more cost, most likely the investment of an entirely new system over what you can purchase today.

Trying to get a Wii been fun...

[__aaclcg7560]

Last week Amazon had randomly selected interested people to buy a Wii and the odds of getting one was listed. Getting a Wii was 28 to 1. Getting hemorrhoids was 25 to 1. At that point, I wasn't getting a Wii since I knew what I would get first. Now where's that Preparation H?

Re:Trying to get a Wii been fun...

[Anonymous Coward]

On Amazon, of course...

The Long Tail of speculation!

[dada21]

All speculation seems to exist with a long tail-type graph. Initially, as supply is low and demand is high, the risk/reward ratio is low (meaning that the risk comes close to guaranteeing a reward). Yet over time, those numbers change and the risk/reward ratio goes up -- a high risk with a low reward. Quickly the profit curve falls -- very quickly if the items are easily supplied and demand is limited.

In this case, as in many speculative ventures, the tail portion of the curve can drop below the zero point, meaning profit is now a loss. Once you consider your time spent, shipping, gas, and other costs, that negative-profit point can come fairly quickly as suppy goes up and old demand is met.

I don't believe in speculating on anything once the masses know about it. Housing is an example -- so was the dotcom era. When the kid at Best Buy tells you that it is time to buy a second home/buy a tech stock/buy a PS3 in order to make money, the boom is over, and the last speculators are caught because no one wants to catch a falling knife.

I never would have gotten involved in this mess because you just HAVE to know that Sony wanted to make more of them so they could themselves make the profit. What I never understood about the PS3 is why Sony wouldn't have had more reason to sell them themselves in an auction style. It makes more sense to reap the profits for themselves -- I wonder how many Sony managers and upper-management were some of the initial eBay sellers?

Sidenote: I've always thought that bands should do the same for concert tickets in demand -- why sell them through ticketmaster when the band could auction the high-demand/limited-supply tickets off direct and reap the rewards.

Re:The Long Tail of speculation!

[UbuntuDupe]

What I never understood about the PS3 is why Sony wouldn't have had more reason to sell them themselves in an auction style.

Gamer backlash. Yeah, they'd be going only to people willing to pay that much, so in theory everyone's better off, but it would generate a lot of ill will among the broader gaming market. Unfounded in my opinion, but it would still cost them sales.

It makes more sense to reap the profits for themselves -- I wonder how many Sony managers and upper-management were some of the initial eBay sellers?

You mean sellers due to their position as Sony managers? Zero. eBay required a receipt picture. I doubt retailers would conspire with a Sony manager like that -- big penalties on both sides.

Re:The Long Tail of speculation!

[harryk]

Well... just a couple of thoughts, but before I get into them, let me first say that I agree with you.

As a someone who was 'marginally' successful at scalping my 2 PS3's, I have to say that given it to do over, I would. I had a good time, and I cannot put a price tag on the 'event' itself. I still walked away with a profit.

and I to do not understand why Sony (and really anyone else) doesn't just sell the items themselves. But I believe it has alot to do with law than anything to do with business.

See, it kinda comes down to the same thing with automobiles, atleast here in the states. Technically speaking you, as a customer, cannot buy directly from the manufacturer, for nearly anything. In order for you to purchase item X, the seller has to pay certain fees within it's respective location, think sales-tax etc... . However, getting into a larger issue is that the states (individually) don't want you to be able to buy directly from the manufacturer, because it would cut out their 'inventory' taxes.

It really comes down to taxing the hell out of the product prior to the sale, as that is REALLY where they make there money. Continuing to take car dealerships as an example, the 'dealer' typically does not actually own the vehicle, oh they bought it from the manufacturer, but they don't have to report the buy until the end of the year. At which time any remaining vehicles (and sometimes this is done quarterly, but we'll continue to use annually) are then taxed an 'inventory' tax, and this is on EVERYTHING, not just the car, but parts as well. Its a ridiculous mess.

Now, thats for tangible items, talking about the concert is a little different.

Ticketmaster (again as example) has contracted with nearly every venue out there, to be the sole promoter of any event, which in addition to just about everything else, grants them the right to sale tickets. There use to be a competitor called Ticketron if I recall correctly that did basically the same thing, but at a much lower price. At any rate, a band's promotions and tour organizations are typically in cohoots with Ticketmaster as well, so it benefits everyone but the band who (as I understand it) get very little of the actual 'ticket cost' after all the fees have been added in.

There is nothing wrong with a band attempting to sale it's own tickets, but then it must also incur all marketing costs, venue rental (assuming one can be found that isn't under ticketmaster's thumb) etc... quite quickly becoming cost prohibitive.

Ticketmaster is a fucking rip-off! ... They charge you a 'convenience fee' for web-based or phone based orders, in addition to their already inflated ticket pricing. I hate ticketmaster

Re:The Long Tail of speculation!

[rjhubs]

The reason bands and sporting events don't sell their tickets in an auction type style is because they want to give a somewhat fair chance to everyone to attend the event, not just the rich. Because doing so would alienate a large portion of their fans. In the same way if sony sold their ps3's in auction format they would in fact be hurting their consumers by making them pay more. As we already know, selling consoles isn't about making a profit, it is about getting the consoles into enough people's hands so they can buy games.
While initial profit seems beneficial, losing customers hurts in the long run.

Re:The Long Tail of speculation!

[LocoMan]

On the ticketmaster thing... not sure how it works in the US, but here in Venezuela the one that sells the ticket is the producer, the band doesn't have anything to do with them (directly, at least).

The company I work for rents stuff to shows (projection/plasma screens and lighting and sound systems). Basically the way it works is that you have a producer that sees a chance to bring an artist, so they contact them and pay them a set amount to play at a specific date and place, then rents the place, promotes the show and sells the ticket. He's also the one that takes the risk, if ticket sales don't bring in enough money to cover for all the expenses, the band still gets paid just as much (except for cases where they negotiate a % of the ticket sales, but at least here it's not common... and even then the band doesn't lose money, just get less), but the producer loses money. I've actually seen some producers having to close down because a big show they invested lots of money in didn't bring any profit.

There are some bands that do their own producing, though... but at least in my experience they're rare and usually leave the entire business of producing the live shows to companies that specialize in that.

Re:The Long Tail of speculation!

[NekoXP]

Because TicketMaster has a ready-made infrastructure for selling tickets.

Re:The Long Tail of speculation!

[Sargeant Slaughter]

I hate ticketmaster too!!!

I wish someone (like me) would get together with bands that also hate ticketmaster and put on shows with tickets that can be bought onlineand the money actually goes to the band.

I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to tell my PS3 fanboi friends that the Wii is far more difficult to get and desired. They still don't believe me.

I think the reason being is that the Xbox and Playstation really aren't that impressive. Sure the graphics are upgraded, but that's about it. Same games all over again.

Where Nintendo kicked ass is with revolutionixing (if you can call it that) the gameplay experience. The Wiimote adds so much to the gaming experience that the refined graphics of the other two just seems like the expected step. I don't have any console, but if I had to pick one, I think I'd go for the Wii because it adds a whole new exciting aspect to the gaming experience.

Plus, it seems that Nintendo focuses their games around stories and concepts, rather than just flashy graphics the Xbox and Playstation duke it out over.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[mgabrys_sf]

re:"Same games all over again."

Right. Mario, Zelda, Metroid. Nintendo never goes back to the well. Insightful fuck ain't-cha? How many dead horses are up at Nintendo of America in Redmond these days? The stench must be worse than a glue factory.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[calbanese]

I think the reason being is that the Xbox and Playstation really aren't that impressive. Sure the graphics are upgraded, but that's about it. Same games all over again.

That isn't why. Upgraded graphics have driven the entire console industry for twenty years. Look at the 2600 or NES. Are modern consoles that different? Controllers, TV, cartridges. Xbox/Xbox 360 added online multiplayer its been around in a less robust form since at least the Dreamcast. The MAJOR difference between 1980s consoles and 2000s consoles are the graphics. Thats why people get new consoles. When graphics become photorealistic and upgrades don't add anything to the visual experience, you can look to something other than graphics as driving sales. I don't think that merely upgrading graphics are the problem.

The Wiimote does add something new. Its not for me, but I can understand how people who don't want to figure out controller combinations would enjoy it, or those who just want something different and fun.

Plus, it seems that Nintendo focuses their games around stories and concepts, rather than just flashy graphics the Xbox and Playstation duke it out over.

Historically, thats not what sells consoles. If that were the case, Nintendo's focus on stories and concepts would have been reflected in sales of the N64 or Gamecube, both of which were crushed by consoles with arguably better looking games.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Pluvius]

No, the reason why there's not a ton of demand for the PS3 is because it costs $600 and doesn't have many games. Trust me when I say that despite ranting to the contrary, a lot of people are still impressed by the graphical difference between this generation and the last. Hell, I was impressed when I saw games like Gran Turismo HD on my brother's PS3, and I'm the exact opposite of a graphics whore.

As for the Wii, it hasn't revolutionized anything yet. From what I've heard, beyond being able to use it as a mouse (which is hardly innovative), the stuff that the Wiimote adds to games like Twilight Princess and Rayman Raving Rabbids is about as much as what the Sixaxis adds to Call of Duty 3. That is to say, not a whole lot. Sure, it's fun to wave your Wiimote around like a sword and see that translated on the screen, but it quickly becomes apparent as nothing more than a novelty. That's not to say that later games won't make ingenious use of the Wiimote, but it hasn't happened yet.

Rob

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Volante3192]

Mario, Zelda, Metroid. Nintendo never goes back to the well.

Because Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Mario 64 and Sunshine were all the exact same game.
Because Metroid, Super Metroid and Metroid: Prime were all the exact same game.
Because Legend of Zelda, Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess were all the exact same game.

And Halo and Halo 2 are unquestionably, inarguably, completely different.

Talk about dead horse beating...

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[nuzak]

I've been playing a fabulous game called Okami on my PS2 lately. You literally paint shapes on the screen with a brush (ok, maybe not literally) to use your various powers. If any game called for a Wii port, that one is it. With something as direct as the Wiimote, you could even make the game less ridiculously easy by not letting the game pause while painting.

Sadly, Capcom axed Clover Studios, so it'll never happen. Guess that's what you get for making games that are actually interesting. As for Nintendo, it doesn't have Mario in it, so they'd probably never finance it either.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Pluvius]

Super Mario Sunshine is similar enough to Super Mario 64 so as not to be considered revolutionary or innovative. Same thing with Twilight Princess or Wind Waker versus Ocarina of Time. As for Metroid Prime, it's a major change for the series but it still plays a lot like the other Metroid games, just with FPS elements added.

As for Halo, the GP never said that that was revolutionary or innovative (though it does have a remarkably good multiplayer mode from what I've heard). I don't know about him, but personally I don't think any of the three console manufacturers are particularly innovative when it comes to software any more. The problem is that while no one claims that Microsoft or Sony are innovative beyond the companies themselves, innovation is Nintendo's calling card.

Rob

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[EmperorKagato]

"As for the Wii, it hasn't revolutionized anything yet. From what I've heard, beyond being able to use it as a mouse (which is hardly innovative), the stuff that the Wiimote adds to games like Twilight Princess and Rayman Raving Rabbids is about as much as what the Sixaxis adds to Call of Duty 3."

The sixaxis in Call of Duty 3 is a joke. The use of the Wiimote in Raving Rabids is quite interesting. Especially when you want to run you move your hands like you're actually running. Also in Excite Truck I can steer the vehicle regardless of how I tilt the controller on another axis. Unlike in Call of Duty 3 for the PS3 I would have to tilt it a certain way to control the vehicle.

"but it quickly becomes apparent as nothing more than a novelty"

Would you rather control your FPS games with a regular controller? When it is difficult to hit two targets seperated on two sides of the screen with a mouse or regular controller.

"That's not to say that later games won't make ingenious use of the Wiimote, but it hasn't happened yet."

Is this a copy and pasted argument? Did you know you can use the wiimote to:

1. Throw a pass
2. Aim and Shoot
3. Slash, Parry, Defend
4. Run like mad
5. Throw punches
6. Steer a Car

The Wiimote is your main controller of most Wii games. The sixaxis is only used to steer a vehicle(poorly) in Call of Duty.

Now which controller is a novelty?

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[iamhassi]

"Upgraded graphics have driven the entire console industry for twenty years. Look at the 2600 or NES. Are modern consoles that different?"

Yes, they are. 2600 to NES was a revolutionary step forward in graphics. Super Mario Brothers is a leap forward in graphics compared to Pong. NES Zelda doesn't even compare to SNES Zelda: A Link to the Past. The SNES couldn't really muster 3D graphics (remember Star Fox?) so the best SNES games look like Pong compared to Playstation's Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy VIII or Gran Turismo 3, and there was another leap forward (although much smaller) when the Playstation 2 came out.

But that's where it stopped. Playstation 3 is not revolutionary compared to the Playstation 2. We're not talking going from a max of 4 colors per line and 2 channel mono sound to 25 colors per line and 5 sound channels like the revolutionary difference between the consoles you mentioned, the Atari 2600 and NES. This is not 3D vs 2D.

Comparing graphics on the Playstation 3 to the Playstation 2 is like choosing pretty graphics to prettier graphics. This is choosing which Victoria's Secret model looks best, and upgrading from the "ugly" Victoria Secret model to the most beautiful. Most gamers would be happy with any Victoria Secret model, so this explains why the PS3 isn't selling so well because gamers are happy with what they have, they're not willing to trade in several years of developing a relationship with a console to start over with a new one without some serious guarantees of a whole new "gaming" experience.

That's where the Wii succeeds. The Wii compared to the PS2 is like upgrading from the "ugly" Victoria Secret model to twins that are contortionist, head cheerleaders at their college and both named Miss Teen USA (I'm thinking if Lilia Stepanova had a "equally skilled" twin). It gives us everything the PS2 did plus a whole new way to play games we've never experienced. That is why the Wii will, ultimately, sell far better than the PS3 ever will, and put Nintendo back on top.

My question is: what is better than twins that are contortionist, head cheerleaders at their college and both named Miss Teen USA?? Where do we go from here?

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Anonymous Coward]

When it is difficult to hit two targets seperated on two sides of the screen with a mouse or regular controller.

Tell you what. Get a pair of airsoft guns or something. If you can use them safely, you can do this with real guns as well. Set up two targets a decent distance away from you--15-25 feet. That seems short, but it's about right for many FPSs. You don't even need to separate them all that widely, but let's go ahead and separate them so they're at about the angle that opposite sides of your screen will be--all measured from where you're going to stand for the shot, of course.

Now, shoot both targets at once.

If you want, you can even try this experiment with one gun, shooting them in quick succession.

I don't think I have a problem with any FPS control scheme that makes this difficult.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Jet Grid Radio/Jet Set Radio deserve a new sequel on the Wii.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Come out of your cave, HD games with real surround sound are much nicer than the previous console offerings. If you cannot afford a decent screen, that's your problem. Both the xbox and PS2 games look very old and poor compared to the current consoles. Wii games look like they were the norm 5 years ago. Once the novelty wears off, you'll be picking a Wii up for about $100 by the end of the summer.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Pluvius]

The sixaxis in Call of Duty 3 is a joke. The use of the Wiimote in Raving Rabids is quite interesting. Especially when you want to run you move your hands like you're actually running.

And when I want to punch someone in the face in Call of Duty 3, I move my hands like I'm actually punching someone in the face.

Also in Excite Truck I can steer the vehicle regardless of how I tilt the controller on another axis. Unlike in Call of Duty 3 for the PS3 I would have to tilt it a certain way to control the vehicle.

I agree, the tilt steering in Call of Duty 3 is awful. But it's not clear whether this is because of the controller or because of the game.

Would you rather control your FPS games with a regular controller?

I mentioned the mouse capability already. It's nice, but not innovative. I can use a USB mouse on the PS3, for example. The only problem there is needing a flat surface to rest it on.

When it is difficult to hit two targets seperated on two sides of the screen with a mouse

I have no more problem doing that with a mouse than I would with a Wiimote.

Did you know you can use the wiimote to:

1. Throw a pass
2. Aim and Shoot
3. Slash, Parry, Defend
4. Run like mad
5. Throw punches
6. Steer a Car


Yeah. So? Except for #2 (which again can be done by a mouse) and #6 (which can be done by the Sixaxis, and done much better by an actual gaming steering wheel, which the PS3 also supports), how do any of those add to the game in the way they're currently implemented? Throwing a pass, for example, does the exact same thing that pressing a pass button does. The only difference is a minor enhancement of immersion, which I already said is a novelty.

The sixaxis is only used to steer a vehicle(poorly) in Call of Duty.

Incorrect. The best usage of it is to hit people with your weapon. It's also used in several minigames.

Now which controller is a novelty?

Presently, both of them. The difference is that no one is saying that the Sixaxis is anything else.

Rob

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just "gestures". Even frickin' Harry Potter PC game used that!

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[joshetc]

My question is: what is better than twins that are contortionist, head cheerleaders at their college and both named Miss Teen USA?? Where do we go from here?
hot gamer nympho twins of course.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[AKAImBatman]

The MAJOR difference between 1980s consoles and 2000s consoles are the graphics. Thats why people get new consoles. When graphics become photorealistic and upgrades don't add anything to the visual experience, you can look to something other than graphics as driving sales. I don't think that merely upgrading graphics are the problem.

The difference is that previous graphics upgrades had notable effects on the gameplay experience. For example:

2600: 2 sprites + monocolor background
5200: 4 sprites + character mode background
Colecovision: 32 sprites w/16 colors
NES: 64 sprites w/64 colors
SNES: 128 sprites w/256 color + scaling + rotation + blending
Post-SNES: Framebuffers + 3D Accelerators

Each of those steps was a rather major improvement over the previous generation. The games didn't just look better, they played better thanks to abilities that were previously unavailable to developers. Now we're sitting on a situation where improvements to the graphics doesn't actually change the gameplay by much, if at all. Only Nintendo seems to have realized this, and focused on innovation in other areas. :)

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Pluvius]

He meant besides graphics. Though I would argue that modern consoles are quite different from the consoles of twenty years ago as well. Not only did enhanced graphics allow for 3D games, but increases in processing power and media capacity allowed for deeper, more complex games. I would say that modern consoles aren't that different in this respect from the consoles of ten years ago, however.

But that's where it stopped. Playstation 3 is not revolutionary compared to the Playstation 2.

I thought that myself until I actually saw PS3 games on my HDTV. The difference in graphical quality between the PS3 and the PS2 is just as large as that difference is between the PS2 and PSX. I would agree that the graphical upgrade is not as dramatic as the one between 8-bit and 16-bit or between 16-bit and 32/64-bit, but it compares very well with the last generation's advances.

Keep in mind that we're comparing final-generation PS2 games with first-generation PS3 games. First-generation PS2 games weren't a great deal better in graphical quality than final-generation PSX games, either.

[The Wii] gives us everything the PS2 did plus a whole new way to play games we've never experienced.

People keep saying this, but it hasn't been proven yet.

Rob

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Anonymous Coward]

gestures aren't new. okami just makes 'em real pretty.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[EmperorKagato]

Halo on Xbox.

You have to change your sensitivity to a higher level and get used to turning extremely fast.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[EmperorKagato]

"Yeah. So? Except for #2 (which again can be done by a mouse) and #6 (which can be done by the Sixaxis, and done much better by an actual gaming steering wheel, which the PS3 also supports)"

Hey everyone lets go shell out another 40-50 for a steering wheel for one game and I sure hope it's wireless!

Why not just use this Wiimote for steering?

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Pluvius]

Getting a wheel for one game? Anyone who really cares about the difference between steering a virtual car with an analog stick and steering a virtual car with a steering wheel is likely enough of a racing fan to already have a steering wheel, much less have a number of games to play with it.

Rob

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Stormwatch]

Upgraded graphics have driven the entire console industry for twenty years. Look at the 2600 or NES. Are modern consoles that different?

Yes, they are. 2600 to NES was a revolutionary step forward in graphics. Super Mario Brothers is a leap forward in graphics compared to Pong.

But there were intermediate steps -- Intellivision, Atari 5200, ColecoVision, all of which were more powerful than the 2600 but less than the NES.

The SNES couldn't really muster 3D graphics (remember Star Fox?) so the best SNES games look like Pong compared to Playstation's Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy VIII or Gran Turismo 3

The best (and best-looking) SNES games were mostly in 2D. These hold their ground pretty well in comparison to 2D games on the Playstation. Compare, let's say, Nosferatu and Castlevania SotN . They don't look as different as you make it sound.

And you're again skipping intermediate steps -- Sega 32X, Jaguar, and 3DO had better 3D than the SNES.

Other than that, I think you have a point. Game machines have reached the "good enough" stage. Besides, to truly see the improvements, you'd need a high definition TV, which most people don't have yet.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Stefanwulf]

Sure, it's fun to wave your Wiimote around like a sword and see that translated on the screen, but it quickly becomes apparent as nothing more than a novelty. That's not to say that later games won't make ingenious use of the Wiimote, but it hasn't happened yet. I got Elebits for xmas, and while it's a fairly simplistic game so far, it is the first game where I've found myself stumped as to how I'd do it with any other controller short of a VR glove.

The game in large part revolves around manipulating objects in three dimensions, and the ability to quickly and accurately pick something up while rotating it and pushing it away from you is a core part of the gameplay. So is, for instance, grabbing a falling lamp and and righting it, then placing it gently on the floor.

Sure, you could tie all of that to one or two button presses, but that would significantly detract from the gameplay, not just the immersion. The game is about the skill and precision with which you can perform those manipulations.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[KeiichiMorisato]

As for Metroid Prime, it's a major change for the series but it still plays a lot like the other Metroid games, just with FPS elements added. Alright, so for the next Metroid game, let's make it play like Animal Crossing!
WTF do you think a Metroid game will play like?

How can you be so blinded by bias, that you can't even accept the fact that Metroid Prime WAS revolutionary and innovative (even proclaimed by the big gaming sites/mags)??

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[LKM]

So you picked the three most stale franchises Nintendo has. Good job on that, congratulations. Of course, you neglected to mention that of these franchises, exactly one is on the Wii as of now. There are plenty of innovative Wii games available and coming, both from Nintendo and from third parties. Naming three franchises which did not see huge changes in recent times does not change that.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[seebs]

From what you've heard, but you obviously haven't tried it.

I've actually played Rayman. It uses the Wiimote, quite a lot, and no, you couldn't do that with a sixaxis. Your comment about it being "nothing more than a novelty" is a 100% reliable indicator that you've never actually tried it. Sorry, but I'm gonna have to go with the people who have actually used the system over the fanboys who refuse to because they have already proven with science that it cannot possibly be fun to have a different controller.

Using the controller like a mouse isn't innovative in PC land, but it is in console land, and it makes the system a lot more fun than the alternatives.

Yes, I have a PS3. No, I don't have any games for it; I'm running Linux on it.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[mgabrys_sf]

Next Generation magazine panned GTA3. So much for the gaming press.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[Anonymous Coward]

This is true. I walked into Target yesterday and they had 9 Wiis. When I left 30 minutes later, they had sold out.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"People keep saying this, but it hasn't been proven yet."

It hasn't? Well, maybe it's a matter of opinion, but it's surprising to me that a collection of mini sports games has generated all this buzz. Put Wii sports on any other console and 'ho-hum' is the best they'd generate. I'm personally satisfied with the "whole new way to play games we haven't experienced" declaration.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[spiderbitendeath]

The Atari Jaguar had a form of online play long before the Dreamcast or XBox.
The VCS had a modem for downloading games. - http://www.cyberroach.com/cyromag/six/mvc-880f.jpg
Other consoles, from Nintendo, had them before Dreamcast. Other older companies did too.

The only thing I've seen being new this time around is Nintendo including a photo editor. Everything else is just repackaged old ideas and techniques. Though I do enjoy Nintendo's version of them, alot.

Re:I can see why the PS3 is not in demand

[iamhassi]

I don't think Rob has played a Wii yet. If he had he wouldn't have said that.

I'm pissed because, after playing nearly every Wii game currently available (thanks blockbuster!), I'm quickly realizing there's some games I might not be able to finish because I don't have enough skill. Games like Super Swing Golf: no longer do I just have to press up down up down left right left right ABAB start in the proper sequence to beat a bad guy or get 30 lives, I actually have to get up and turn my body in the right way and swing my arms at the right speed and keep my hands straight in order to beat a level. This is as close to real life as you can get, it's virtual reality without the goggles.

So...

[Drakin020]

From the article it shows a price spike at 10/21 - 10/23 Why the spike? What was so special about those couple of days?

Re:So...

[DrEldarion]

I don't think people were allowed to list preorders more than a month ahead of time. Since it was released on 11/17, that's just about the right time for them to be put up on eBay.

Re:So...

[poot_rootbeer]

From the article it shows a price spike at 10/21 - 10/23 Why the spike? What was so special about those couple of days?

People buying them as Mole Day gifts, no doubt...

Examples from previous posts:

[SuperStretchy]

Why would people continue to want a PS3 given the complete shortage of games for it. Personally, I like the PC. I can play any game previously released (Though some DOS games seem like they are in super turbo mode), and, more than likely, I can play console games too. Logitech's Input mapper program + emu + rom = trouble, but sometimes worth it. Case-in-point: FFX and FFXI (I think those were the ones a buddy of mine got to work)...

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[mgabrys_sf]

Yes, emulation is wonderful. Until you want to play robotron with a keyboard at which point it's pure comedy gold baby.

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[Doom bucket]

I tried and failed to sell a PS3 for a profit last week. It sold for 750 dollars. That might sound nice, but I had included four games, which brought it to a retail price of 840 dollars. I also lost money because the shipping was four dollars more than I estimated, and paypal fees and the ebay listing ate into an additional 20 bucks.

I'm not a scalper, I bought the PS3 and decided I didn't want it. In the end though, I would have been happier if I had kept it, but my feedback would have taken a massive hit. Sadly, I don't want a Wii and my 360 is being repaired, so I'm pretty much screwed.

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[SuperStretchy]

Yikes. Not to mention the opportunity cost of waiting at a store (if thats what you did) when taking into consideration the many people who took off work for 2 days.

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[SuperStretchy]

HAHAHA well thats why i made mention of the logitech mapper. I have actually gotten it set up so I can use a force feedback, wireless gamepad with mmos and counterstrike source. No more WASD cramps, but when I actually want to win, then I switch to wasd + mouse.

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[EmperorKagato]

They're waiting on MGS4 and FFXIII

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[Rob T Firefly]

I can play any game previously released (Though some DOS games seem like they are in super turbo mode)

DOSBox, baby. An open-source app that emulates old DOS on modern platforms.

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[SuperStretchy]

Roger that, but for some reason even DOSBox doesn't like to restrict California Raisins' game speed.

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[Rob T Firefly]

Perhaps it's something to do with raisins' natural laxative properties.

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[AKAImBatman]

Roger that, but for some reason even DOSBox doesn't like to restrict California Raisins' game speed.

California Raisins was all over the map on the original hardware. (I played it on a few different computers.) So its speed is going to be a bit wacky on DOSBox as well. What you want to do is use CTRL+F11 and CTRL+F12 to decrease or increase the number of virtual cycles per second until you find a game speed that's reasonable. For games tuned to the original 4.77 MHz, this seems to be about 450 cycles/sec. I use that setting on Crossfire, and it works spectacularly well. :)

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[SuperStretchy]

I don't know of anyone who has ever beaten the 2nd level. In all my years gaming, I've never gotten past that point. Its the only game that I've ever not been able to beat. (not that I'm bragging, but face it, games are meant to be beaten).

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[AKAImBatman]

I don't know of anyone who has ever beaten the 2nd level. In all my years gaming, I've never gotten past that point.

Second level of... California Raisins? Seriously? I know I passed at least 6 levels, and I believe I actually beat the game. (Though I could be making that up.) Of course, it was painfully slow on the hardware I played it on, so I had a LOT of time to respond to traps. ;)

Re:Examples from previous posts:

[SuperStretchy]

Ok, now I feel like a nubcake. I could make it through the second level just fine... where you jump over the pits and all... but I couldn't make it to the door.

Man I loved dropping the bombs from the balloon. I'm not sure what purpose that served or how it was scored, but I thought as a kid that I was bombing an Indian village.

From a retail standpoint...

[borderpatrol]

I work for a major electronics retailer, and we had originally sold our systems in bundles only for approx. $1200 each, with later bundles around the $900 range. We are getting approx. 10 of these bundles being returned a day. We started getting the majority of them after December 20th or so., which would be around the last day to ship from eBay. We are acepting these items back for return, but alot of the folks who bought them on the 17th are stuck with a $1200 store credit.

All the scalpers are mostly saying that "We didn't need it", "We got 2 for christmas", etc. One guy I talked to was honest and told me he bought it to flip on eBay, but the market fell out. Now he's waiting on a Wii to buy for himself.

We have lots of PS3s here at the store gathering dust (we got the largest shipment per store of any electronics retailer), people just aren't interested in them at all anymore.

Re:From a retail standpoint...

[Anonymous Coward]

You claim to be a store yet don't link to all these PS3 you have piled up? I smell bovine excrement!

Re:From a retail standpoint...

[Nf1nk]

I believe it. I work at sears. We have recieved exactly 1 ps3. we we got the 20gig on monday, it was still there sitting in the glass case when I went home on wedsnday. I wouldn't be shocked if it is still there.

Re:From a retail standpoint...

[Mdentari]

Yea...whatever man. Give me the store location and number and let me call. But you won't and you can't. Such typical fanboi (Read fanboi with the same contempt republican radio announcers use when they say 'liberal') manufacturing of the facts.

Re:From a retail standpoint...

[powerlord]

we we got the 20gig on monday

And that says it all. Most of the early adopters that I know are waiting to get their hands on the 60GB model.

Re:From a retail standpoint...

[Nf1nk]

oh yeah and it was still there on friday at 5:30

Re:From a retail standpoint...

[Anonymous Coward]

Call any Fry's Electronics. But you won't.

Sounds like a sure thing to me.

[GodInHell]

Well, its actually a good lesson in investing and gambling ... no such thing as a sure thing. So.. let me get this straight he (1) made an investment of 600$ +/- (2) attempted to capitalize on his investment, but failed and then (3) got a full refund.

Where is the risk in that again?

-GiH

Re:Sounds like a sure thing to me.

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

Where is the risk in that again?

Well in this case he wound up not being compensated for his time (which of course is a concern in investing). But in general I was referring to the concept of betting on a sure thing.

Re:Sounds like a sure thing to me.

[UbuntuDupe]

I didn't get a refund on the ebay/local paper listing costs. Further, I could have found a buyer, who then issued a chargeback that paypal might screw me on.

But don't worry -- I have 50 times the retail price of a PS3 in a diversified array of index funds, taking advantage of the favorable tax-free and tax-deferred accounts, so I think I've got my investing in order...

Re:Sounds like a sure thing to me.

[poot_rootbeer]

But don't worry -- I have 50 times the retail price of a PS3 in a diversified array of index funds, taking advantage of the favorable tax-free and tax-deferred accounts, so I think I've got my investing in order...

Yeah, but how long is your dick? That's what you're actually trying to inform us all of, no?

Re:Sounds like a sure thing to me.

[Ahnteis]

>>But don't worry -- I have 50 times the retail price of a PS3

Sweet -- you can afford a new car when you retire. :P

Re:Sounds like a sure thing to me.

[Anonymous Coward]

30k? If you're going to brag about having 30k invested in various funds, I hope to god that you're under 20 years old.

Re:Sounds like a sure thing to me.

[Madpony]

So.. let me get this straight he (1) made an investment of 600$ +/- (2) attempted to capitalize on his investment, but failed and then (3) got a full refund.

Where is the risk in that again?

The risk is that you most likely wasted a lot of time waiting in line for no good reason.

Re:Sounds like a sure thing to me.

[GodInHell]

Parent said he just happened to be in the store when they came out of the back room. No line.. no wait.

-GiH

Same thing happened with XBox 360

[Animats]

Nice analysis. I've pointed out before that eBay prices on the PS3 were in a screaming dive within days of launch, but this uses enough data to really make that clear.

We went through this with the XBox 360, but with more speculators. People were trying to unload those things on eBay for months, finally at prices below retail.

The "secret reserve price" thing on eBay is a big part of the problem. That encourages overpriced items and wastes buyer time on auctions doomed to fail. Sellers like it, because they don't have to compete against each other on reserve price, but it probably reduces the number of successful transactions.

Re:Same thing happened with XBox 360

[0kComputer]

We went through this with the XBox 360, but with more speculators. People were trying to unload those things on eBay for months, finally at prices below retail.

If I remember correctly the 360's were selling at a premium on e-bay well into the spring. I think that the point of this article is that we've barely passed X-Mas and the prices are already down around retail, which probably implies low demand. In other words, sony is screwed.

Re:Same thing happened with XBox 360

[powerlord]

If I remember correctly the 360's were selling at a premium on e-bay well into the spring. I think that the point of this article is that we've barely passed X-Mas and the prices are already down around retail, which probably implies low demand. In other words, sony is screwed.

You are right about how long 360 prices stayed high, but the quicker price drop on the PS3s isn't due to lower demand.

Sony actually came through and have ramped up production on the PS3 much faster than Microsoft was able to ramp up production on the XBox360s. There weren't many shipments of XBox 360's to resupply stores after the initial console launch. By comparison, there have been a steady (and growing) stream of shipments resupplying both the PS3 and the Wii.

That increased supply is what affected the curve, not the drop in the demand.

By comparison, the Wii, because of its lower price, has a higher pool of possible buyers. Therefore, even though the suplpy HAS been increasing, its against a higher demand, so the inflated price has dropped slower.

Re:Same thing happened with XBox 360

[EmperorKagato]

"That increased supply is what affected the curve, not the drop in the demand." Not only production, returned items as well.

Re:Same thing happened with XBox 360

[powerlord]

"That increased supply is what affected the curve, not the drop in the demand." Not only production, returned items as well.

Absolutely true. As the price falls, and more of the units that are out there by scalpers get returned, they only add to the supply further affecting the curve (although I would say their impact is probably minimal compared to the increased supply of units by Sony).

Re:Exemplary prior posts prove potential

[WillAffleckUW]

Why would people continue to want a PS3 given the complete shortage of games for it.

Not only that, but even the Wall Street Journal, had a main fold front page story (in print) on how the Christmas shopping season was dissapointing, with the exception of the Nintendo Wii and HDTV sales.

And, in the G4 TV program, they have only given one 5 star rating for the entire PS3 lineup - the PSP is doing much better, of course.

If you want to gamble, go to the stock market

[roskakori]

From the article:

If you want to gamble, go to Vegas. If you want to invest, try mutual funds.

If you want to gamble and invest, try the stock market. For example, Nintendo has more than doubled its value within a year and keeps rising. For even more thrill consider buying stock options - if for instance you want to bet on the Sony stock price going down, get some put options. This is particular useful if you bet against the market and end up being right.

Pity new high profile consoles show up only about every five years. Good thing there are game developers that have highs and lows all the time, for example Electronic Arts...

Re:If you want to gamble, go to the stock market

[Anonymous Coward]

For example, Nintendo has more than doubled its value within a year and keeps rising.

"Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If these trends continue... AAY!"

That's not quite right.

[CyberLord Seven]

Manufacturers have the ability to sell to anyone they want. You are correct that if they do, they have to take on the role of tax-collector for the State; that's every state they sell product in. Not the kind of paperwork they really want to get involved with.

For instance, in California, If you are a manufacturer that does not sell to the public you get a tax exempt form that allows you to buy raw material without paying the state of California any tax on it. Without this document you pay the tax.

Another consideration is contract law. Sony has contracts with Best Buy, Circuit Shitty, Target, you name the company, to supply them with items. I suppose that each of those contracts has a clause that prohibits Sony from by-passing them and selling direct to the consumer. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that such a clause was standard.

Re:That's not quite right.

[powerlord]

Another consideration is contract law. Sony has contracts with Best Buy, Circuit Shitty, Target, you name the company, to supply them with items. I suppose that each of those contracts has a clause that prohibits Sony from by-passing them and selling direct to the consumer. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that such a clause was standard.

They may, but there must be a loophole.

Otherwise how could the http://www.sonystyle.com/ store exist?

Tony Blair snags a PS/3

[rlp]

Kotaku also has an blurb on the Blair's picking up a PS/3 during their recent trip to Florida. The PS/3 won't be released in Europe for another three months.

Re:Tony Blair snags a PS/3

[Bertie]

Well, there you go. Tony Blair hasn't made a single right decision for years...

Communal Mores

[Omestes]

So a community of people decided that your behavior was unacceptable to their community standards? I fail to see anything unjust about that, in fact it gives me some deal of respect for the atmosphere of Craigslist. Next your going to complain that /. allows you to mod down trolls, since inflicting a community standard is unjust. There are more than one set of laws, don't you know, the codified ones, and a vaster collection of norms, mores, and values that vary from community to community, and are enforced more subtly and more forcibly than codified law. Thats Soc101 speaking, nothing too brilliant.

Communities self-regulate, and if Craigslist decided to buck the will of their community for the good of scalping, I'm sure they'd lose a large portion of their users.

Re:Communal Mores

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"So a community of people decided that your behavior was unacceptable to their community standards? I fail to see anything unjust about that..."

Community standards can be unjust. Surely somebody that has been around Slashdot as long as you would understand the dangers of Group Think.

I'm not saying the Craigs List community was wrong (or right, for that matter), I'm just having trouble with this argument you've put forth. Communities should be motivated by what's right, not by what popular opinion dictates. Otherwise policies are simply enacted to keep the noisy people quiet. Not good.

Re:Communal Mores

[Omestes]

You are correct, commuity standards (ala group think) can go terribly wrong. I didn't mean to present this as a good in itself, in this case, though, it is rather mundane and nonharmful. Especailly since their was no communications between users (unless hidden somewhere deep in Craigslist is a "flag the scalper" discussion), it was a wholly organic movement. I don't even think this could be group think, its more like many individuals defining the character of their community individually.

DS at Walmart :D

[Lord of Hyphens]

Don't know about you, but I managed to pick up a DS Lite (White) 4 days before Christmas from Walmart for the list price. There were 8 of them when I walked in, and nobody seemed to be hounding the units. I honestly don't think they were backordered, just coming out at a trickle. Don't get me started on the Wiimotes, which I've been hunting down without much success since launch.

And hot damn, this thing is fun.

Investing in consoles

[rlp]

Right after the E3 gaming conference (where the buzz first got going for the Revolution / Wii) - Nintendo (ADR) shares were at $18. Today they are over $32. $600 invested in Nintendo after E3 would have netted you $416 profit (after commission). Without having to stand in line.

Disclaimer: I own stock in Nintendo. I also own a Wii (which I may get to play after my wife finishes 'Twilight Princess').

Wait, "stories"???

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo focuses their games on stories? If by their games, you mean Zelda, then you have a point. But there is NO Nintendo game that gets by on its story. Their games are about gameplay, bottom-line.

Ever try multithreaded games programming?

[Lord of Hyphens]

FYI, writing games for multicore processors is a bitch. A rightous pain in the ass. Particularly everyone's favorite wankfest--the FPS. Everything about games like that are in the timing and the "on demand" aspect -- the software is constantly reacting to the player.

The major strength of multicore processors and software designed to take advantage of such is the tasks are broken down and processed in parts (asynchronously in the best case), which is why for applications like audio and video encoding, the benefits scale with the number of cores (with limiting factors such as drive I/O latency). Not gaming.

Cell clusters would be wonderful for servers, not so much for game consoles. And don't get me started on some of the design BS associated with the PS3's memory access.

Disclaimer:I'm a gamer. I'm not a fanboi. I own the PS2, DS Lite, and a decent computer. I have never looked forward to the PS3 (which I view as a gambit to push Blu-Ray on the masses). The Wii I find a fun system (Although I do not, as of yet, own one).

Echo Chambering aside....

[entmike]

I'm a failed PS3 Ebayer transformed into a pretty happy PS3 owner. I play my 360 more, but the PS3 has a lot of potential and seems to be better positioned to do more things over the lifetime of it as opposed to the somewhat Fischer-Price feel of the 360 dash. I'll own a Wii soon, too, so I really don't have a bias of one over the other.

Re:Echo Chambering aside....

[Saint_Waldo]

I just wanted to laud your complete lack of polemic and hysteria in your comment. You seem like a reasonable thinking human who asseses their individual enjoyment separate from what outside observers have flooded information channels with. I commend you, and wish you the utmost enjoyment from your PS3 (I'm also a satisfied owner, who purchased on eBay) AND your 360. And when you get a Wii, I hope that system satisfies you as well. It's not about any of the companies winning anything or beating anyone out of the market, folks. It's about getting them to get into a full-blown knife fight, so that supporters on all sides get a better show. The PS3 is better for having to up the 360 and anticipate the Wii. I doubt I'd be piloting an airplane by tilting my controller (Blazing Angels is my current most played) if Nintendo hadn't let slip some early Wii-mote teases. I'd really like the "haha's" and crap to stop. This thing is out there, it works, it was worth the money for ME, and boo-fucking-hoo for the crying of scalpers that they didn't cash-in on this years Elmo. I plan to burn a candle for them, right next to the one's I keep lit in my window for Ticketmaster execs, pay-check advance operations, and that little old lady with the Virgina ham under her arm crying about having no bread.

Retailers' lesson?

[lpangelrob]

So at some point, when will Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. figure it out and charge a 15% restocking fee for returned consoles so that I don't have to worry about nearly as many scalpers?

The fact people were able to just return the consoles free and clear means that there really isn't a cost associated with scalping, unlike with sporting events, where you have a time deadline. This shouldn't happen.

Re:Retailers' lesson?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"The fact people were able to just return the consoles free and clear means that there really isn't a cost associated with scalping..."

I dunno if I'd derive too many conclusions from the return policies of stores. This all happened around Christmas time and if it's one thing retailers won't do, it's give a lot of shit to customers during the holidays. I remember a couple of years ago game retailers were allowing returns of games little Johnny just plain didn't enjoy. Can't do that any other time of year.

Re:Retailers' lesson?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The fact people were able to just return the consoles free and clear means that there really isn't a cost associated with scalping."

Other than the 18 hours sitting in line in the middle of winter?

Re:Retailers' lesson?

[Anonymous Coward]

Each of the sucker is now stuck with a ~700$ (more that that in case of a bundle, or multiple of that in some cases) of money to spend at the store. That money is already in the store account. And they have stock back for an item that may not be *that* difficult to sell. And they got plenty of media coverage. And while SONY will take back stock if they can't sell it, they have the money.

Retailer made money on that, beleive me.

Meh...to the PS3

[betamaxV2.1]

For a moment lets ignore all of the dumb things Sony has done recently (rootkits, etc).

Why I wont' buy a PS3 in at least 3 years. Well first of all, believe it or not, I am married so any purchase I make as to be agreed upon by both the wifey and myself. Even though she does let me spend my fair share of money on toys, neither one of us can justify the costs here. To be able to use the PS3 and get the "full" experience requires and HDTV. I don't have an HDTV, I just got a new 35" tv about 8 months ago and we can't get HD cable tv where we live so there really isn't much point. So past the cost of a several thousand dollar TV (and don't mention the falling prices because I believe in spending more and having it last a long time...I hate disposable electronics) my wife and I would rather spend that money on a vacation.

The graphics on the PS3 are very very nice when viewed on a proper HD setup. The problem is there isn't much new past that. Sure the sixaxis is nice but I have played a Wii. The Wii is fun to play. I have played both thanks to friends with much more disposable income that I. The Wii is going to have some games that really change video game playing style. Plus being up on my feet while playing is nice (us computer geeks are oft prone to laziness).

I am not saying that the Wii is better than the PS3 but what I am saying is that there are probably more people in my situation. A situation where money is somewhat tight and don't enjoy a game on graphics alone isn't that rare. I wish I had to disposable income to get a full HD setup and all 3 next gen systems. But I can tell you that my first next gen system is going to be a Wii. I waited until all 3 systems were out and put in some serious play time on all of them. The Wii wins for me.

Your results may vary. Batteries not included. Void where prohibited.

Re:Meh...to the PS3

[Anonymous Coward]

You bought a 35" square TV in the last 8 months and call yourself a geek?

Re:Meh...to the PS3

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the post again. His wife wouldn't let him, she wants a vacation.

Why Returns are Really Annoying

[Anonymous Coward]

My brother-in-law (teenager) wanted a PS3 for christmas and I was planning to get him one (his mom was paying for it). I pre-ordered it in July but the store I got it at didn't get enough for me to actually be able to buy one. When it became obvious that I was not going to be able to get it in time, she decided to buy him something else (a 24" HDTV). Obviously at this point I am NOT going to buy the PS3, at elast not for a long time. If a bunch of people who were "in front of me" on the pre-order list never wanted the box anyway and just return it, everyone loses. My brother-in-law didn't get what he wanted, I didn't get to be the hero who produced the awesome gift, my mother-in-law didn't get to give the gift, the game store had to take money out of the till and give it back to someone, sony has to deal with the "everyone is returning their product" crap and, I guess, technically, some greedy gamer-hating jerk never got his big, undeserved payday.

Re:Why Returns are Really Annoying

[senatorpjt]

I want your brother-in-law's mom for christmas.

Re: Graphics alone don't sell consoles.

[trdrstv]

If that were the case, Nintendo's focus on stories and concepts would have been reflected in sales of the N64 or Gamecube, both of which were crushed by consoles with arguably better looking games.

That would be a hell of an argument to make. Considering both the PS1, and the PS2 were the technically inferior systems of their generations. If graphics were the end all, then the PS2 would have stopped selling the day the X-box and GameCube launched. Same with the N64 over the PS1, or the PSP over the DS for that matter.

Better Graphics != Better sales.

You have no clue

[LKM]

From what I've heard (...) the stuff that the Wiimote adds to games like Twilight Princess and Rayman Raving Rabbids is about as much as what the Sixaxis adds to Call of Duty 3. That is to say, not a whole lot

Go find a Wii. Play for a few hours. Then come back and apologize.

Console makers should charge more for 1st release

[mozkill]

When console makers release a game console, they should just charge higher until the demand drops. This way the console maker gets the extra cash and it can go toward getting us the next console faster. There is no reason for them to price low on the initial release and let scalpers profit unless they are trying to get their fans to generate hype for them, which is probably the case.

In the case of other electronics, like cell phones, the pricing schemes are always high at first and then prices slowly slide down.

Netcraft confirms: PS3 sales falling

[SuperKendall]

PS3's are still in demand. A week or two ago I tried to get in on an Amazon lottery to buy one. The final odds? 22 to 1 - for the 20GB $500 model! I did not get one.

What has happened is that prices have fallen because Christmas is over and it's not as imperative for parents to get kids the console they want. That weeds out a lot of buyers, to just the gamers that want systems - that are slowly being able to get them, but you still can't generally find a PS3 at most stores.

Also the article mentions a guy who was really in no position to capitalize on what he had. If you are thinking about scalping consoles, build up your eBay reputation a little before going on! Even last week you could still sell a PS3 for well over $100 profit if you were a good seller, and today completed listings are still going for almost that much more.

Perhaps now that it's past christmas and some people are realizing they have no ability to sell a PS3 for a decent profit, store stocks will linger a little before being bought. But currently the PS3 is still in obvious demand, or people would not be paying more than retain on eBay.

Sooo late

[Nazmun]

PS3's have been barely selling for profit since the start of the month.

I work in retail...

[Cyno01]

And i just got home from work about an hour ago. We got 6 60GB PS3s in today. Some guy returned one, so we sold -1 PS3s. On the other hand, sometime between when i got there at noon and when i took my first break @ 2, a half dozen each Wiimotes, Nunchucks and Classic controllers made their way to the floor (i picked up another nunchuck and a classic controller as soon as i saw them). By the end of the day there was one wiimote left. I cover in the electronics dept sometimes, and i had a shift there about a week after both releases, 10:1 the number of calls about the Wii vs PS3. Sonys lost.

I normally work in the photo center, so i have a million other reasons to hate sony.

The wait's just fine by me

[rsilvergun]

I've got 3+ years worth of ps2 games at least, if not more :).

I dont think so.

[TB]

Kotaku and "Content worth reading" dont go together.

Re:Console makers should charge more for 1st relea

[Anonymous Coward]

Console makers can't do this. The game publishers would have their heads. (Game publishers want people to be able to afford as many of their games as possible, and a high console price interferes with that.) Haven't you noticed how unenthusiastic EA and Ubisoft have been about the PS3's already-lofty price?

I can think of a few other big reasons they wouldn't/shouldn't do it, but that seems major enough.

Re:Netcraft confirms: PS3 sales falling

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't even selling on eBay. And when they do, it's so close to retail that the resellers are getting screwed.

Wrong

[Travoltus]

If the Government didn't subsidize stuff like milk (prop up the price) it would be too expensive to make. That would result in an immediate monopoly, or worse, nobody making it at all.

But since we have milk on the shelves you haven't been a victim of such a shortage, so you probably think it couldn't happen.

Your black and white "Government bad, corporations good" doesn't even hold water in theory, which is why no civilized country bothers to follow that mentality.

Not even one.

In the world of survival of the fittest, laissez-faire is quite extinct and has been deemed not fit for survival. I wish to God that we could buy you all a nice big desert continent in the middle of the ocean and let you make your paradise. We'd dress up Mel Gibson in road warrior armor and let him emcee the reality show.

Call it "life in Libertaria".

Re:Wrong

[eht]

Why is it worse that no one makes milk at all?

I do not drink milk.

Humans are not built to drink cows milk.

And do not tell me it is in all these other products I use, because no, it is not.

Re:Wrong

[synaptik]

Humans are not built to drink cows milk. !Correctamundo!

Re:Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Government didn't subsidize stuff like milk (prop up the price) it would be too expensive to make. That would result in an immediate monopoly, or worse, nobody making it at all.

Government subsidies are meant to stabilize a buffer capacity. For a commoditized product subsidies don't really effect the market price, they increase the number of suppliers at a given price.
Food sources receive subsidies because (1) they are vital to society, (2) They are highly succeptable to natural forces. In free markets supply = demand, but if by chance supply is disrupted (eg disease), the inelasticity of demand would result in a sharp spike in prices.
What subsidies do is ensure there is oversupply such that the market can absorb such supply shortages.

Re:Wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes ! And don't come up with the children drink milk stuff either. If they are not fit to survive without milk, they deserve to die. And the market price for children will go up, so I will be able to resell my own for quite a lot of money...

Re:Wrong

[sjames]

If the Government didn't subsidize stuff like milk (prop up the price) it would be too expensive to make. That would result in an immediate monopoly, or worse, nobody making it at all.

That's an important point. Simple economics cannot deal well with issues of risk management. It always seems to make economic 'sense' to operate without a safety net, but the common welfare and national security require retaining ability to produce locally. There'salso avoiding falling into a trap. There are many cases in a market economy where a single vendor figures out how to undercut all competition by a significant amount. Buyers will naturally flock to that one vendor and enjoy the savings right up to the moment the last competing vendor gives up the game. At that point, the sole remaining vendor gets to play all the games it wants with pricing so long as it makes sure it can either keep the barriers to (re) entry high or retain the ability to punish any newcomers by undercutting them only after they have sunk the start up costs.

Laissez-faire only works well for pure commodities where barriers to entry are near zero.

Re:Wrong

[synaptik]

Simple economics cannot deal well with issues of risk management. It always seems to make economic 'sense' to operate without a safety net, but the common welfare and national security require retaining ability to produce locally... Laissez-faire only works well for pure commodities where barriers to entry are near zero. That's a damn good point, thanks. Price floors as insurance policies... hmmm...

Re:Wrong

[StikyPad]

Dairy subsidies are one of the most hotly debated, so using them as a "perfect example of government" is far from adequate. You could make a case for their existance (as you did), but there are plenty of legitimate reasons against.

Re:Wrong

[ElleyKitten]

Yes ! And don't come up with the children drink milk stuff either. If they are not fit to survive without milk, they deserve to die. And the market price for children will go up, so I will be able to resell my own for quite a lot of money...

I didn't drink milk as a child. Hated the taste. Children don't die from a lack of milk.

Re:Wrong

[soft_guy]

Laissez-faire only works well for pure commodities where barriers to entry are near zero. Yeah, with stuff like milk.

Re:Console makers should charge more for 1st relea

[springbox]

Five hundred and ninety nine US dollars wasn't enough?

Scalpers vs. Placeholders.

[Anonymous Coward]

actually placeholders are far more welcome than scalpers.
    The reason why is because it's a sure bet without the worry of scalping. When I got my Wii (typing on it now) there was a guy placeholding for his brother for 8+ hours in line. He was quite happy about the prospect of camping out because he was going to get to play it.
Who would you trust more than family? at least if they skipped out on you, you'd have some good ideas where to find them.

Wherein I retort

[synaptik]

Thanks for the reply. You said:

If the Government didn't subsidize stuff like milk (prop up the price) it would be too expensive to make.

(Quick point of fact: A subsidy does not prop up prices. It artificially lowers them, by paying part of the cost "behind the scenes". A price support does the opposite; it artificially raises them, through tactics such as the imposition of tarrifs, and paying domestic producers to destroy supply.)

I find it interesting that you changed the example commodity in use within this thread from sugar to milk. The cynic in me wonders if you did this because milk is deemed a necessity by many people, whereas bulk sugar isn't. If that was your primary reason for switching, then you'd be potentially guilty of exploiting fear to help support your argument. However, I'll assume that your switch to milk as an example was benign. Regardless, "you may be surprised to learn that most of the human beings that live on planet Earth today do not drink or use cow's milk."

In any case, I'll continue with your milk analogy.[1]

That would result in an immediate monopoly, or worse, nobody making it at all.

If the subsidy suddenly disappeared, then...

• (A) there'd be a near-instantaneous spike in the price of milk. Then...

• (B) Demand for milk would fall.

• (C)Supply would greatly outstrip demand, causing suppliers to compete for sales by reducing prices.

• (D)Many milk producers would go out of business (either by choice, or by default).

• (E)Thus supply is reduced to the point where the wholesale price of milk exceeds the cost to produce it by an acceptable margin of wholesale profit, commensurate with the risks to capital one incurs in the business of milk production.[2]

Would this process, particularly steps (A) and (D), be disruptive? You bet! But, that's the fault of the government baffoon that decided to subsidize the price of milk in the first place. I am tempted to use the analogy of crack cocaine here: going through withdrawal is always a bitch. (Perhaps this is why welfare recipients tend to stay on welfare, making it a perpetual hand-out rather than the temporary hand-up that it ought to be.)

Could step (D) result in a hegemonic monopoly? Doubtful. You could end up with a monopoly in the sense of "only one supplier", but not in the sense of "exclusive power or privelege of selling." Milk is sooo commoditized, that there really is little barrier to entry by competitors. Said monopoly would have no pricing control at all. Any attempt to jack up prices would be inviting competition. (Hmm, is that the influence of some Invisible Hand, that I'm feeling right now? "A little lower, please... a little to the left... aah, that's the spot.")

Thus, I would conclude this particular retort by saying you have confused cause with effect. If the government's milk subsidy disappeared, milk would indeed become temporarily "too expensive to make", but that's the fault of the government encouraging oversupply through the very subsidy that you claim is saving us from high milk prices. In fact, the currently lower price you think you're paying for milk is an illusion. You're still paying the difference; either in the form of taxes, or inflation due to the printing of new $$$ to pay for the subsidy.

Next you said:

But since we have milk on the shelves you haven't been a victim of such a shortage, so you probably think it couldn't happen.

I'm not really sure how the present subsidy eliminates the risk of said shortages. What are you thinking of here? Natural disasters? Some pathogen obliterating our stock of dairy cows? Transport infrastructure crumbling? In New Orleans, August 2005, you probably couldn't buy a gallon of milk for $1000. And, that's wi

Re:Wherein I retort

[Anonymous Coward]

If the existing price floors for milk disappeared there'd be a spike in milk prices? OMFG. Go sit in the corner, dumbass!

Re:Wherein I retort

[synaptik]

I really hope you are not Travoltus in disguise, Mr. AC... I was hoping for better.

I was thinking in terms of a constant price offset paid by the govt, not a price floor (effectively a variable offset.) So yes, I would expect the asking price on the wholesale market to jump if a constant offset was removed. But, even that's not guaranteed; how this pretend situation (w/ price offset) plays out could actually start at step (D), instead of step (A).

In fact, if I revise my understanding to assume a price floor instead of a price offset, then I believe we would start at (D):

        * (D)Many milk producers would go out of business (either by choice, or by default).
        * (E)Thus supply is reduced to the point where the wholesale price of milk exceeds the cost to produce it by an acceptable margin of wholesale profit, commensurate with the risks to capital one incurs in the business of milk production.[2]

I should admit my ignorance of the actual implementation details of the mechanism used by the government for this type of subsidy. Now that you mention it, a price floor seems more sensible than a price offset (although it feels weird to use the word "sensible" in the same sentence as "subsidy.")

But all of this banter about offset-versus-floor doesn't change the bulk of my post. So for you to focus on this one particular poorly-defined-by-me aspect of my comment, and then follow with an ad hominem, is really sub par and in bad sport. As I said above, I'm really hoping you're truly some 3rd party AC troll, and not the worthy Travoltus I was responding to.

Re:Wherein I retort

[Travoltus]

I really hope you are not Travoltus in disguise, Mr. AC... I was hoping for better.

Oh for the love of God, if I want to respond to you, I'll respond to.

What on Earth makes you think I ever have to hide? Does it not occur that more than one person sees that your premise is flawed, and that your whole house of cards argument is doomed?

Re:Wherein I retort

[synaptik]

if I want to respond to you, I'll respond to [you]. Of course, and I wasn't demanding a reply (although I did invite one.) All I meant by what you quoted is that I'd be disappointed if the person launching that particular "dumbass" diatribe behind the shield of AC posting was you, resorting to anonymous vindictives instead of cogent argument. I'd rather people not reply at all than resort to those antics. (Yes, I know... "I must be new here.")

The only 'flaw' I know of in my post-under-discussion is that (a) I didn't make it clear I was talking about the *asking* price spiking, and (b) I was apparently ignorant of the actual mechanics of how an agricultural subsidy is actually implemented by the gov.

But, I don't believe either of those flaws to be fatal to my argument; the mechanism of subsidy is immaterial. So if my argument is a house of cards, then I'm still waiting for someone to elucidate. But thus far no one has risen to that challenge.

Recap:

(1) Your assertion that milk would be 'too expensive to make' without subsidies seems to be the flawed argument. There is simply too much milk being produced. Instead of artificially inflating demand by lowering the price, just let some dairy farms falter. Supply will then drop to the point where price has risen enough to cover the cost of production, and provide a reasonable ROI. There will be less supply, but also less demand. And, the dairy farms remaining will actually earn a reasonable living. The others will move on to other sources of (hopefully unsubsidized) income.

(2) This shell game with subsidies doesn't reduce the cost of producing milk anyway. We still pay that cost as either deficit, taxes, or inflation.

(3) Milk is not a necessity.

If you disagree with (3), I'd like to see a source... but it's largely tangental to my economical argument anyway. I *hope* you don't disagree with (2), although you might believe that taxes are OK, as long as the wealthier-than-you croud is paying it. (If so, then we're arguing opinion, not fact.) So your best bet in exposing my argument as a house of cards is to find fault with (1).

Lest you think me a troll: I used to be much more right-wing on social issues than I am now. I've moved to slightly left-of-center over the years, due in no small part to counter arguments that I could not refute.

Re:Wherein I retort

[Nephilium]

I'm just here to say "bravo". One of the best write ups on how subsidies hurt people and prices that I've ever seen here on slashdot... of course, it's in the gaming section, so too few people will read it.

Nephilium

"I felt like an amputated leg." -- "Trouble Is My Business" (Section 4)

Re:Wherein I retort

[Travoltus]

Again, you make the same mistake. The price of milk is HIGH because of a subsidy called a price floor. Or, well, a facet of corporate welfare, however you want to call it. The price floor is to ensure that milk is produced domestically and not imported.

Re:Wherein I retort

[tbannist]

Would this process, particularly steps (A) and (D), be disruptive? You bet! But, that's the fault of the government baffoon that decided to subsidize the price of milk in the first place.

Actually, I'm pretty certain that a major reason for the subsidies of milk, has little to do with affordability or market conditions. It has a lot more to do with the economic viability of the locally grown food. You see, governments have to look to caring for their people, unlike corporations who care for their profits. No forward thinking government ever wants to be the country that doesn't have a healthy local food production system during a major famine. Because it'll be the food importers who go hungry first, and are the last to get food.

Farm subsidies appease agricultural producers, but also exist to secure the country against the potential for catastrophy. Of course, since it likely hasn't happened in your lifetime, you probably aren't very concerned about that possibility.

Re:Wherein I retort

[synaptik]

You aren't the first to make this point to me, although you were more direct about it. I generally disdain perpetual welfare (be it for humans or corporations,) but I can't argue with the the good sense of staying prepared for the worst.

Everyone has a personal responsibility to their own survival, but preserving national food sources and distribution infrastructure is kind of beyond the scope of the typical (sub)urbanite who's idea of hunting or foraging for food is walking down the aisle of the grocery store.

Calling all Sony Fanboys

[Anonymous Coward]

PS3 sitting for hours at K-Mart off Aurora Avenue in North Seattle yesterday. Probably still there. Sign of PS3's impending failure or K-Mart's, you decide, but it's still there...

Wherein I backpedal [OT: mod as -1, Ignorant]

[synaptik]

Again, you make the same mistake. The price of milk is HIGH because of a subsidy called a price floor. Or, well, a facet of corporate welfare, however you want to call it. The price floor is to ensure that milk is produced domestically and not imported. Thank you. Perhaps if I had bothered to google for 'price floor', I'd have known that it is established economic jargon with specific meaning, and not just random wordage chosen by some passing AC. Now that I know better, I can at least explain the apparent idiocy of me (initially) claiming that the removal of a price floor would cause a spike in prices:

My first intuition of 'price floor' was a mechanism by which the government reacts to insufficient demand by paying producers the difference between $FLOOR and $MARKET_EQUILIBRIUM, when there's not enough demanders willing to pay at the higher $FLOOR. This would be a direct subsidy to the producers, for the sole purpose of keeping them in business (ie, welfare.) So... in this inaccurate model of a price floor, if the government quit paying that difference, the producers would then attempt sell at higher than what the buyers were previously buying at, which would be perceived by buyers as a price spike (since the govt wouldn't be subsidizing a portion of the asking price any more, pre-market.)

However, thanks to Wikipedia I now know that 'price floor' is actually the government requiring the producer not sell below some minimum price, with the promise that said government will purchase any resulting surplus... surplus which would naturally happen if the price floor was set above market equilibrium.

Anyway... prescriptive subsidies for corporate welfare is universally bad, in my book. ...Just let the damn foreigners sell us their cheap bovine mammary juice! If the quality & safety is the same, why pay more than necessary? Blah blah, "comparative advantage," blah blah blah.

FYI: "Milk Pricing in the United States" indicates that the actual pricing system for milk is quite complex, and apparently has further rationale beyond just protectionism. (No, I haven't read all of it, nor do I intend to.)

Finally: this thread was supposed to be about Sony enabling PS3 arbitrage by setting their launch price too low. I wish I had never fed that "farmers dumping produce in the trash" troll.

I'll shut up now.