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Dell's Secret Linux Fling
Slagged writes "The Register has up an article on Linux-based Dell systems being sold in China. While Microsoft quashed an attempt by Dell to create a market for Linux PCs in the U.S., such restrictions are not the case in Asia. From the article: 'Fifteen months ago our own Ashlee Vance, who broke the news of the first break-up in 2001, proved how hard it is to buy a PC from Dell without Windows. Not pre-loaded with Linux mind you - but simply a bare bones box. But far away from the prying eyes of Steve Ballmer, romance is blossoming. An eagle-eyed reader found the fruits of the union, brazenly on display in a Beijing subway.' The article has pictures of the advertisements, which offer Dell PCs preloaded with 'Red Flag Linux'."
Well, sticking it all over the front page of one of the largest tech sites means it will get his full attention now.
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Right before Christmas, I found an awesome deal for a Dell PC in their Small Business section. I configured it, added it to my cart and obviously found out I could not de-select Windows. So I called them up and the customer service rep saw my order and promptly removed Windows for me, saving about $50. 2 weeks later my PC arrived with freedos. Seems easy enough for me. Maybe it was because it was Small Business and not home.
Well, I bought an Inspiron B130 right before Christmas as my Pentium 2 latitude had seen the end of the line and was supprised how well it works with Linux. With Ubuntu edgy, everything worked out of the box sans needing 915resolution to get my widescreen supported properly. I find myself using the laptop more than my athlon64 desktop these days.
I would have liked the system to come without Windows, but booting the Ubuntu cdrom as soon as I got the machine and using dd to wipe the partition table solved that problem for me.
Would it kill them to find an original name?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosts_file
'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
Does linux offer something similar to a HOSTS file?
The HOSTS file is completely different in Linux. It's spelled with lower-case letters.
If you know the Chinese market, this makes sense for multitudes of reasons.
If for no other than to curry favor with the gov't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux
Linux offers many things that could operate in the manner you seem to be suggesting, however in most cases it would be relatively simple to detect and remove such blatant censorship.
Worst case the user could burn a Fedora DVD and reinstall. Can't be any worse off than with some generic "Red Flag" distro...
i rounded up for the sake of this but 6,000 yen is only like 55 USD...
haha.. yeah I see that. Good old wiki to the rescue. Learn something new everyday.
They dont use "yen" in the PRC ...
Nothing at all.
. aspx/dimen_c521?c=cn&cs=cndhs1&l=zh&s=dhs
Just look at Dell's Chinese website: there, right in the middle, amongst all those Chinese characters, you'll see the caozuo xitong ("operating system") listed in clear Roman letters: Linux.
http://www1.ap.dell.com/content/products/features
(The stuff at the top says Dell "recommends the use of" XP Professional.)
If Dell sold Ubuntu laptops where everything (wireless, 3D accel) "just worked" I'd get those instead of the mac laptop I use today.
My desktop's Linux - all my company's servers are Linux - and as cool as BSD/Mac is I don't really need the context switch. I liked Dell hardware last time I used it - and yes, eventually I got Ubuntu running fine on it (damn wireless chips) - but no, it's not worth the effort to change. Yes, I understand for wireless and 3D it might cost as much as Windows to get the proprietary stuff licensed. But it's worth it. Yeah, I know it's not that hard to do it all yourself - I'm just not interested and would rather have something that just worked (and that's my problem with windows - it doesn't "just work" without all the antivirus/security screwing around you need to do).
Dell, if you want to get your market cap back above Apple's -- please get a real OS.
Red Flag Fork: Linux for Commies --- In Soviet Russia, Linux Codes You!
But then the government would castrate you, take your wife, kill the one child that they let you have, and throw you in jail for the rest of your life. Not fun.
No it's not. I have one. OptiPlex GX280n. The "n" is for "no OS", it does come with a CD of FreeDOS, but other than that, you're on your own. You can see their newer versions of the "n" series by clicking this link http://www1.la.dell.com/content/products/compare.a spx/optix_n?c=pr&l=en&s=bsd
Of course Linux has a hosts file. Linux is a Unix knock off so the lineage is obvious. Windows network layer used to be a BSD knock off so rather than re-invent the wheel M$ ripped off the design and mangled it to fit whatever the bizarre filename mangling was at the time (8.3 with long aliases and byzantine rules for capitalization and when it matters). I don't know for sure if the Vax/VMS with Wollongong networking had a hosts file or not -- it probably did and since all things Vax were default upper case maybe that's where the M$ folks got the idea that HOSTS must be shouted LOUDLY.
Very true, but will it balance the years of Microsoft taxes levied on linux user's who purchased systems for linux use and were never provided the option of no-OS or linux pre installed? I've personally purchased two laptops on which I ran linux and never intended to run Windows but I had to pay the Microsoft tax if I wanted the hardware.
I think the pirating also helps Microsoft more than it hurts. The large pirated install base helps to maintain Microsoft's monopoly position. Given a choice of paying for Windows or using linux free I suspect the majority of those users would dump Windows in a heart beat.
Given a country where local shops will sell you a system without charging you for the OS (in any way), how does a deep pocketed competitor from overseas compete? Linux. It can be shipped for free, without breaking laws, and avoiding lawsuits. I'm sure MS is well aware of this, and we have all read on /. how they keep making threats to China in efforts to solve this problem. Unfortunately, people that like to use cheap foreign labor to MAKE products, do not often understand that those same people can't afford to BUY them at those wages.
THANK YOU I understand now. At least its not spelled hOStS or something dumb like that
Love them or hate them, Dell sells more PC's than any other vendor. So their moves as a whole would generally be something that the linux community SHOULD follow, not just disregard and only cite statistics for much smaller vendors or channel resellers. Frankly, though, this isn't that big of a deal. As has been said before, it's relatively easy today to buy a PC from Dell (US) without an operating system. And the fact that in China you can buy a PC preloaded with a government-funded operating system isn't something I'd use the word "shocking" to describe.
I have bought hundreds of Linux machines from Dell. For a corporate customer it isn't an issue.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Linux on Dell Laptops seems to perform almost flawlessly. I run Ubuntu on my Inspiron 6400 and everything was detected. The only noticeable problem I have is that I have to manually put the laptop to standby before closing the lid. I confess I haven't checked the power control panel yet. Otherwise, everything was detected and cooks!
I call bullsh*t, or at least misinformation.
I was able to negotiate a refund of some $62 for each of four Dell PC purchased while I worked at a former employer because we explicitly did not want Windows for them. Even though it came preinstalled, with shrink-wrap installation media, we got the refund upon returning the installation media and attesting that we reformatted the hard disk.
Dell was not difficult about it.
Of course, the fact that all our desktops were Dell machines, and most of them did run Windows, and my employer did have a blanket corporate license from Microsoft for all MS software may have had something to do with it, but still.
Of course, getting a refund for returning something you don't want is not the same as not having to purchase it in the first place, but the bottom line was that, in the end, Dell happily sold us PCs with no operating system on them.
You could've hired me.
Please explain to me in the most civil terms possible why is it okay that businesses even as large as Dell should be afraid of Microsoft's disapproval?
I feel similarly about Walmart and what it does to its vendors, however, it's interesting to see what Walmart's push for flouescent lights over incandescent will do... such power over the market CAN be used for good.
I can't help but wonder if microsoft would allow the companies it intimidates into using only windows would mind if they allowed Suse (more specifically, SLED) to be preinstalled?
There is more to science than physics!
www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
The link is not working for me, either.
x /nseries_nb, linked to from http://linux.dell.com/. The resulting page is just a generic "The page you requested may no longer exist on Dell.com" error.
x /nseries_nb. I would have guessed that the URLs for the two destinations would be similar, but they're not.
Just to confirm, the link I'm trying is http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.asp
What seems odd to me is that the link to "n-Series Desktops" points to http://www.dell.com/nseries, while "n-Series Notebooks" points to http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.asp
Is their server just down, or have they decided to purposely bury their Linux laptops?
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
To be honest, I very much doubt it. It'd probably be quicker, easier and better for the end user to just get the legal edition from Dell with the PC.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
Unless you have a very strange or old volume license agreement with Microsoft (different than every other volume license I've ever seen), what you are doing isn't legit. You can't install volume or corporate-license Windows on bare hardware; the hardware has to have some sort of Windows license on it first. I don't think Microsoft sells unlimited-install licenses that entitle you to put XP onto totally bare hardware. It's their way of cooperating with the big VARs; this is one of the reasons why you never see a big company with white-box PCs, even though any reasonably-sized organization with its own IT department could go to Taiwan and get their own equipment for half of what Dell charges. Only the gear that comes with a license sticker on it from the factory is eligible to have corporate images put onto it. (Which really makes me question the utility of those corporate licenses, but I guess that's because I'm not in management.)
Dell is pretty clear about this on their n-Series page, as it states in bold type: "It is not a Microsoft operating system and is not qualified for Windows licensing use under any existing Microsoft Volume Licensing Program (OPEN, Enterprise, etc.) Customers interested in a Microsoft® Windows® solution should purchase a Dell desktop pre-loaded with Windows XP Professional."
If you get audited, you may be in trouble.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
To answer your question though, west coast US, firefox2 and IE6 for me.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Workstations with RedHat pre-installed have been available in Singapore for ages. This seems to only be for small business-targetting workstations, though: I haven't seen any in the home/home office range yet (although atleast one of the OptiPlexs come with 'DOS not factory installed').
I followed a few of the links listed, and found
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/08/03/dell_ends
where a dell marketing sleeze says:
"Our customers did not seem to want it though; the numbers didn't add up,"
If enough people searched for "Linux Desktop" on Dells website
it might make them reconsider.
Actually you don't even need to look for the non-windows version. They will automaically offer to sell you the PC without Windows at the end of the customization process and you save $30 (I tried using the OptiPlex 320)
Damn, you're right. It's got a Winamp icon in the Start Menu to start XMMS, and it's even got the blue E icon.
;-)
Maybe it's to make the desktop seem less strange to people used to Windows? You and I can use a new theme or switch from KDE to Gnome (and vice versa) without freaking out, but I doubt most computer users can manage that.
Still, I think this should run into legal (copyright/trademark) problems in western jurisdictions.
At least they didn't change the Open Office icon for the MS Office icon
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
"if it had a HOSTS file (its linux)"
So if it has a hosts file, it's Linux? Hmm...
C:/windows/system32/drivers/etc/hosts
ZOMG! Stop the presses! I'm running Microsoft Linux XP!
On a more serious note, if you're going to implement a censorship regime on a large number of clients, why would you try to do it on the client end with a file easily reconfigurable by the user rather than intercepting and redirecting the DNS requests?
Apparently Dell is fixing the problem with this link. It now works in FF, but not in IE.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
The difference is that the victims of your hypothetical crimes are not tacitly encouraging it. Kidnap victims do not go around saying "If I am kidnapped I will not go to the cops", do they? They are also real crimes recognised by any society, not ones invented by governments in recent years.
MS (and other software companies) do tacitly encourage piracy. Otherwise why do they fail to enforce their copyrights.
I lvie in a country where some of the Holywood studios have proved enforcement works: people are far more cautius about priating DVDs than software because they ahve been sued for it. IBm has also been getting people to pay for Lotus Notes. MS thinks this market is worth fairly heavy advertising, but not worth suing the peole priating their software - why do you think that is?
If anyone from MS is reading and wants to prove me wrong: I will promise to find you thirty retailers, high street or shopping mall , that can easilly be proven to be pirating your software, in return for a guarantee that you will sue them.
Rumour has it that MS was considering enforcement, but backed down when some corporate users said that they would rather use Linux than pay for Windows.
What are you talking about?! We have hundreds of Dells of different types were I work and I've never seen one welded or riveted shut. I've seen rivets used in their construction but, not used to keep you from getting inside. I think you are mistaken. I know those Dells can be pretty tricky to open sometimes because they have weird case designs but given enough time I have not encountered one I could open with a screw driver or my bare-hands. Maybe I'm wrong, whats the model number on the machine your talking about?
Because Microsoft has a monopoly on operating systems for the PC and because the profit margin on PCs is so small, a moderate increase in the cost of Windows can make it impossible for Dell to compete.
Most people don't want to buy a PC that does not come with Windows preinstalled. So if Dell does anything that really frosts Microsoft's cookies, Microsoft could make it very difficult for dell to stay in business simply by raising the price it charges Dell for its monopoly operating system.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Is cooking a good thing?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Yes. That has a specific meaning in HTTP. It's not an error.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
I am, in essence, an avowed capitalist, but let me say this:
It is the supreme irony that it is possible to more freely purchase what you want in China than it is in the United States - the country of the products' origin and central influence of capitalism throughout the world.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
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I always use
www.dell.com/linux
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Where can an American (living in Indiana) buy a good Linux desktop? My computer is currently dying and I would like to replace it with a not-windows computer. I want to write documents, check email, surf the internet and other normal usage tasks. I don't want half the software I have on my computer to be dedicated to protecting my computer like it is right now. I want a smooth running Linux system which doesn't cost $509 (sorry dell), where can I by such a computer? I don't have the skills to buy the parts or patience to build one. Any advice?
Yep, the customize links work for me, but none of the other ones seem to.
I've tried using Firefox on WinXP, and Firefox on Mac OS X, the former from work and the latter via Comcast broadband, both on the East Coast. Neither one would bring up the page.
Glad I finally got to see them, though. Thanks.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Setting aside the absurdity in your comparisons between crimes involving property, physical, and emotional harm to the illegal copying of bits, I'd say you have an excellent idea there. Perhaps we need a little tit for tat, and considering the crimes which the management of Microsoft have been found guilty of perhaps its time we had a little justice in the form of hard time for the perps.
While I don't buy into the outrageous claims by Microsoft and others as to their losses to pirating I do support their efforts to stamp out piracy of their products around the world. I think it would be very beneficial to everyone all around if we could stamp out piracy of Microsoft products over the next few years with the release of Vista. But I suspect one of the benefits will not be a huge influx of licensing dollars to Microsoft's coffers, there will be a mass exodus to open source alternatives.
I wonder what OSX will think?
Most people aren't thought about after they're gone. "I wonder where Rob got the plutonium" is better than most get.
Uhh... Microsoft strong-arming PC-makers to preload their crappy OS. Isn't that "restraint of trade"? Intimidation? Hello .... legal folks....? Anyone there???
... namely Chinese customers saying "WTF, Dell, I just checked your invoice. It seems you charged me for software. That must be some sort of mistake. Software doesn't cost money in China."
Seriously, though, I think this is as much about giving Dell plausible deniability as it is anything else. Hardware makers have vastly different incentives than IP companies: Napster gave Dell a shot in the arm because the whole MP3 rip/burn craze sold a ton of boxes with extra ram, processor, and CD-RW drives. Apple, similarly, certainly isn't selling 8 GB iPods so that they can hold $10,000+ worth of music from iTunes. ("Rip. Mix. Burn." was their old marketing tagline during the heady early days of Napster. I'm sure that they gave absolutely no thought to the fact that their core demographic was engaged in widespread music piracy at the time.)
Dell, as a responsible corporation which has offices in a country with enforceable IP laws, can't sell a million computers with pirated Windows on them. Somebody at MS would notice the license counts didn't quite add up. They also don't want to lose a million sales to Chinese manufacturers who have no compunctions about that. So they release Dell boxen with Red Flag Linux on them. And after its out their doors, well, what happens after that is none of their lookabout.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
I had my other half look at the ad. Since she is from China I felt that should qualify her as an expert. The first thing she told me that it didn't look right and don't trust any ads in China unless you see and are able to try out the product first hand. She also told me that the literal translation for the wording before Linux on the 2nd picture was "flag" and not Red Flag so it would be Flag Linux
I'll be the first to admit that our Myth installation has been problematic and a pain. So now I'm going to ask you some questions about Tivo which cut to the core of the things I really like about Myth compared to Tivo. I'm not a Tivo expert, so these really are questions; some of them Tivo probably does fine... But I think at it's heart Tivo has a great interface but is much more limited than Myth.
Can you really BUY a Tivo, or only rent it? (That is, you buy the hardware but my impression is it doesn't work without a subscription)
Can you cheaply and indefinitely expand the capacity of your Tivo for roughly the cost of drives? (Tivo is Linux based, so it certainly COULD support mounting a new drive over, say, NFS, but I don't think it does...) It's only a few hundred $ to expand your Myth box to 1 TB...
Are Tivo's files encypted? Can I copy them to another machine and have them play while the Tivo is off, disconnected, far away - or if the Tivo breaks. Can I back them up to another media and have them work? Can I put them on my laptop and watch them on a plane without internet?
Can I guarantee my Tivo will let me skip commercials? ALL commercials, including ones Tivo might put there? (I believe they've several times talked about adding unskippable commercials...)
Does Tivo support fast-playback with adjusted audio? I haven't used this, but at least some versions of Myth are supposed to support playing on a fast-forward speed (say 2x, but even 1.5x) WITH audio, and with the audio adjusted so that you hear normal words but you don't hear gaps between words. Supposedly it's quite reasonable to watch a lecture in 3x once you get used to it, because someone can only talk so fast and still be clear, but that has gaps.
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I still probably have the install tapes around, DC600 format.