Cod Enzyme Kills Bird Flu

Jon Golden writes "An Icelandic cod enzyme might be the cure for bird flu. A recent experiment, which the Icelandic company Ensímtaekni hf. took part in, indicates that in five minutes, the isolated fish enzyme killed 99 percent of H5N1 viruses. The killer enzyme, called penzim, was extracted from the intestines of cod by Ensímtaekni and is currently being developed for beauty products and various types of medicine. The experiment on the H5N1 virus was conducted in London. CEO of Ensímtaekni and biochemist Jón Bragi Bjarnason said he is very excited about the results of the bird flu experiment. "People have feared that the bird flu virus will change into a human flu virus and now we have a likely cure in case that happens." Bjarnason also believes that penzim might prove a cure for common flu and cold, eczema in children and arthritis."

Comments

Cure?

[nebaz]

Not to state the obvious here, but if it kills 90% of the virus, doesn't that just mean that next year we'll get a flue completely immune to this stuff?

Re:Cure?

[HappySqurriel]

As a guess, I would assume that this would involve much further study to determine why the enzyme was so successful in the first place and then try to make it much more potent; essentially, they see the possibility of making a cure from this but it is not ready yet.

Re:Cure?

[malsdavis]

The virus may mutate into a form resistant to the enzyme in the future but it would then no longer be the same virus strain, the virus would have to start all over again and it may not even succeed. There is no reason why other 'cured' viruses like smallpox & polio couldn't have mutated and beat their cures (although influenza does mututate more than small pox) but they didn't and now the world is free of them.

If proven effective in the real world then it is still a cure, saying otherwise is like saying "Why bother trying to cure the disease, everyone is going to die someday".

Re:Cure?

[cosmicaug]

As a guess, I would assume that this would involve much further study to determine why the enzyme was so successful in the first place and then try to make it much more potent; essentially, they see the possibility of making a cure from this but it is not ready yet.

As a wild assed guess, it is so successful in the first place because it is probably some fairly potent and fairly non selective protease. The fact that it kills viruses in a test tube means almost nothing. For this to be effective as a drug it must be able to kill these viruses in a living organism and it must do so while producing minimal damage to said living organism.

Re:Cure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course the flu tends to mutate quickly enough for vaccines to be almost completely useless within a couple years so I guess ultimately it will become resistant to this treatment.

However, if this is as effective as it sounds, it might be enough to end the strain entirely. Our immune systems are easily strong enough to win if you knock out 90% of the virus. It is unlikely that you'd be contagious with the 10% that your immune system has to kill on its own. Combining reasonably effective vaccines with highly effective treatments is what you need to wipe it out.

Since this sounds too good to be true, I think it has to be taken with a grain of salt. It isn't likely that it'll work as well as they hope.

Re:Cure?

[megaditto]

Since this sounds too good to be true, I think it has to be taken with a grain of salt.

Well, a 1-in-10 dilution of chlorine-based household bleach will kill 100% of the germs. But what's good for treating biohazard might not be good for treating children.

I know it's Troll Wednesday, but what the hell...

Re:Cure?

[myrdos2]

The concern about the bird flu is that it's completely alien to humans, and is therefore very deadly. Once people have been exposed to it, their immune systems will be much more resistant to mutated strains. Also note that new viruses, such as swine and avian flu, tend to become less deadly of their own accord! It's not in the survival interests of a virus to kill off its hosts. (Who will then carry the virus?) Less deadly strains tend to do better.

No, it's the first emergence of an unknown virus that is feared here, and it's the new exposure that has the potential to kill off hundreds of millions of us. Next year's strain of the flu will be much less severe, and it will gradually degrade to just another influenza. That's whats happened with these things in the past.

So something that can kill off the virus when it first emerges would be very beneficial, because that's when the most lives are lost.

Re:Cure?

[bunbuntheminilop]

99% in 5 minutes. I would expect you'd kill all of the virus with a 3 day course of the stuff.

Re:Cure?

[tloh]

There is an infectious threshold that a contagion needs to pass before it can spread through a population as an epidemic. If used properly, a drug that is 99% effective can nip it in the bud before the epidemic stage provides an opportunity for widspread replication and the chances for mutation.. If it doesn't reproduce much in the wild, it doesn't get a whole lot of opportunity to mutate into something dangerous. Used incorrectly, or abused in obviously stupid ways to serve other ends, be it political or otherwise, resistance *will* be a problem in the future.

The problem of non-human hosts (birds, obviously, but also swines), however, complicates the picture a bit. Using drugs to treat human cases goes a long way toward keeping an epidemic in check. This is especially true considering how mobile we are in this day and age. The agriculture industry has also had mixed success in keeping domestic livestock safe. But what worries a lot of experts are migratory wild birds. They are the one variable we have almost no control over.

On a slightly different note, the flu seems to be giving up a lot of its secrets. There is a timely article from reuters via Yahoo that highlights some new (?maybe old but uncirculated in the mainstream press?) information researchers have uncovered about the 1918 flu and the similarities to H5N1.

As such, maybe this drug, if developed and used properly, is enough to deal with the problem. Kill 99% with the drug. Let the immune system, unmolested and unprovoked, deal with the remaining 1%.

Re:Cure?

[itlurksbeneath]

Probably not, but it does mean that the 10% of the virii that are left will probably be really ticked off that we killed a couple hundred million billion of their brothers.

Seriously, there's nothing that something left in that 10% wouldn't turn into a pandemic later. Plus, a vaccine doesn't mean that you WON'T get the thing it vaccinates you for, it just means your chances of getting it are much, much lower. There hasn't been a case of polio in the US since 1979 (caused by the natural virus, that is, not by the live vaccination that was discontinued in 2000), but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be a case next year. Polio still exists on the planet in other countries.

Re:Cure?

[noidentity]

If it kills 99.9999% of the virus, would the same conclusion apply? If so, is there anything that kills 100% of any virus, guaranteed?

Re:Cure?

[iminplaya]

99 percent

Oops. So sorry. I was just in...kind of a mood...you know? Forgive me?

Re:Cure?

[chimpo13]

If proven effective in the real world then it is still a cure, saying otherwise is like saying "Why bother trying to cure the disease, everyone is going to die someday".

But some of us are waiting for The Coming Apocalypse. If this bird flu doesn't take off, it's going to effect my income from patenting my new "Soylent" (TM) brand of foods.

Re:Cure?

[WobindWonderdog]

I think it has to be taken with a grain of salt. It isn't likely that it'll work as well as they hope. Huh, in my day it was a 'spoonful of sugar', but each to their own, I guess...

Re:Cure?

[cluckshot]

Actually there is a medical tool that can do nearly as well as the bleach solution without killing the patient. Specifically if you take a 910nm YAG pulsed 1/10,000 sec 10 times per sec at about 250 watts for a duration of about 30 seconds and applied locally to the site of the infection, very nearly any virus or bacteria known and even some other agents can be blasted into oblivion while assisting the life processes of the human tissues surrounding.

No this isn't an American technology. No it isn't fiction or fantasy. The process has been tested against even HIV and Hep C. It works. The WOW that it is applies to a wide range of medical problems. The specific process is known as cold lasers in sports medicine. Yes you could have the flu and be treated in a few seconds without drug side effects. I personally have seen this technology resolve a MRSA cyst about 1/2 the size of a large egg over night. The amount of treatment time was 30 seconds. The cyst was in an 82yo female who had acquired this post surgical and it was treated unsuccessfully with 30 day of intense IV medication including Vancomycin and other meds.

This works by driving the life function of the human cells directly by photosynthetic process. It would appear that the process also overdrives the material in the infectious agents. Thus the process causes health in 2 ways. It will remove edema (swelling) in a few seconds. It causes very fast healing. It relieves most pain issues in seconds of at most over a course of 3 or 4 treatments a few hours apart. It is so effective it should be required as a post-op treatment for patients. It is a treatment that is so effective it can literally stop the flu or even destroy deep in tissue infections like those hard to treat sinus infections with nearly instant effect. As such the Bird Flu and any other flu epidemic should be a few laser pulses from oblivion.

Re:Cure?

[NerveGas]

Only if it's used improperly.

Used properly, a person is more or less isolated, to try and prevent the spread of infection. While the enzyme itself may only kill 90% (Actually, I think it was 99%) of the virii, the idea is that the person's body will take care of the remaining (cod-enzyme-resistant) virii.

steve

Re:Cure?

[KKlaus]

Reminds me of something someone once quipped about AIDS. Finding an effective killer of HIV is easy, and in fact pretty much every average joe has it in his house. Its called bleach. Now finding a cure that won't kill the host organism...

Re:Cure?

[CorSci81]

So my grandmother really was trying to kill me when she gave me cod liver oil? I knew it!

Re:Cure?

[gordyf]

Do you have a source for any of these claims?

Re:Cure?

[Sarisar]

Yeah I was most upset when I got some booster shots. One of them (polio?) used to come on a sugar cube but now is a drop of foul tasting stuff on your tongue.

Yuk :(

Re:Cure?

[semiotec]

agreed. For example, SDS, a common detergent used in biochem labs (not for cleaning purposes) easily kills HIV. But I doubt they are going to inject into any human beings anytime soon.

Re:Cure?

[AlexanderDitto]

How do you kill hundreds of thousands of viruses with a laser that causes photosynthesis? Bah. Have you been reading too much of the national Exagerator?

Photobiomodulation, according to Wikipedia, sounds like what you're talking about, but the article is relativley lacking in sources, and only boasts that "Certain wavelengths of light at certain intensities (delivered by laser, LED or another monochromatic source) will aid tissue regeneration, resolve inflammation, relieve pain and boost the immune system." Doesn't sound much like removal of Hep C or HIV.

As human beings, we tend to get very excited at even the smallest most remote possibility of a miracle drug. I definitley think this needs to get lots of funding, and fast, but don't be too disappointed if it fizzles out. We've just got to keep trying. Hopefully, we find the plant or organism that holds the key before it dies out (aka we kill it).

Re:Cure?

[jackelfish]

Exactly. I read some other press on this treatment and they are trying to develop it as an external spray, I am assuming akin to something like Lysol which is already sold as killing 99.9% of viruses. My question is; why not just use Lysol on everything you touch then it is probably just as effective and a lot cheaper.

Re:Cure?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're assuming that your own immune system can't handle the rest. In a normal functioning human there's no worry, your immune function is extremely capable. That's why antibiotic-resistant bacteria don't kill us all.
Drugs should be the absolute last resort, but in nutritionally-deprived countries like the US, drugs are often the first choice - and that's why you lot get to suffer with low immune function & are susceptible to damned near everything out there.

Re:Cure?

[fluffy99]

It's apparently already sold as a magic cream for a variety of skin problems. http://www.icelandic-goods.com/shop/product_info.p hp/products_id/233 http://www.icelandic-goods.com/shop/images/penzim3 .pdf?osCsid=13a2d473e42ab3b06d77dc3c180a28ca. Of course, that by no means implies it's suitable for internal use.

Re:Cure?

[AppahMan]

YEAH, like a eating a teaspoon of drano, sure it'll clean you out, but it'll leave you hollow inside

Re:Cure?

[Max Littlemore]

True, but following up the same cod enzyme with a single hydrogen cyanide will completely prevent re-infection. Just imagine never having to worry about bird flue again!

Hey, just while you're signing that waiver, I'd like to let you in on a special offer I have on a local bridge. Great price, only one owner. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity...

Re:Cure?

[loki_tiwaz]

I'm having trouble conceiving of this enzyme as being dangerous when it is from inside the guts of a common (albeit in this case from an uncommon region) fish (remember, cats and seagulls aren't particularly fussy about which parts of a fish they eat). The only thing I can think of that might be an issue is that intestines often are clogged up with somewhat unappealing organisms substances in states of decay. I seriously doubt it's toxic, but I also doubt it will be useful injected or eaten, but perhaps it might help knock the virus back in the place where it is most active, in the sinus, by putting it into a nasal spray.

Re:Cure?

[mappemonde]

...you know, and I am not a man of the Bible, but I remember when I was young, that in Genesis, it says something to the effect of "everything you need I have given to you" which means that all the cures for all diseases are already here and they are in nature. We continue to struggle to look to taking the long road to get to across the street...

Re:Cure?

[loki_tiwaz]

It all really depends on where this enzyme attacks the virus. Being that this is obviously some kind of digestive enzyme for the fish, one would assume it is a more generalised protease enzyme but specifically targets a type of protein common to the cod's food and the bird flu virus. If the protein it attacks is not something that can vary without impeding the essential functions of the virus then it is a cure.

In the end, the best cure for any virus would be a nanomachine (be it protein or not) which carries an active oxygen atom into the location to destroy the most critical components of the virus' reproductive mechanism. That's basically how the human immune system defends against virii and bacteria, by remembering which enzyme sequence is required to lob a bomb (O-) into the soft bits of the enemy's generative system (testicles/ovaries). Of course sometimes one can aim a bit wider than that, for example disrupting metabolism but that does not apply in the case of virii whose only function is to replicate their code within the cells of another organism.

Re:Cure?

[TheLink]

Just a note: Polio is not eradicated yet. And may even be making a comeback due to stupid countries like Nigeria.

Re:Cure?

[someone1234]

It kills 99% of the virus, those who are still ill could be shot and the rest of the population is saved!

Re:Cure?

[FirienFirien]

Just because it exists in fish doesn't mean it's safe. There's both factors of scale (it's not clear how much of the enzyme is present in each fish) and location (remember that in your own gut you have a wonderful cocktail of potent acid and chlorides (HCl, KCl, NaCl). Hydrocholoric acid is highly corrosive, and gastric acid is generally pH2-3; that's strong enough to eat through quite a few things, but because it's surrounded by suitable protective cells it doesn't cause any damage.

Just because it's not causing trouble to the organism it's in, doesn't mean it's not dangerous; remember also that it's likely that most or all venomous creatures are resistant to their own poison.

Re:Cure?

[wallyhall]

currently being developed for beauty products

So in 5 years time everyone just slaps on some soft skin lotion and hey presto, protected against wrinkles, UV and now bird flu. Oh and you look 20 years younger.

Re:Cure?

[loki_tiwaz]

absolutely, it might be highly toxic to humans. The fact that most likely generations of localised fauna which are known to have close genetics to humans that have made this fish and the cast-offs of humans does not mean the enzyme in question is safe. it just means it could be. the sooner there is a way to shut the stupid media up about bird flu the better imo. i hope this is a road to the cure. trans-species viral disease, to me, is the fantasy of those who want a mass disease. maybe. maybe not.

i'm pretty sure the birds don't die of the bird flu, at least not often.

i personally put a lot of faith in my immune system. i reckon i've already encountered this alleged terrifying flu, and many of its relatives. i don't like hanging out with birds tho, personally. nice to hear their tittering but i'd rather have them outside pollinating trees than inside or anywhere near my space. domestic ground birds such as chickens and geese are highly entertaining and useful to me (i love eggs but i do wish they didn't put so much sulphur into their eggs) but anyone who wants to or submits to living so close to birds that they get f1 hybrids of bird virii that their body can't cope with should be ruled out as legitimate sufferers of a trans-species virus because it's pretty obvious they would not get it without living with their goose. who's gonna tell those people not to live with their geese.

i mean, everyone knows that living with cats who wander about the neighbourhood are likely to expose themselves to toxoplasma. where's the media terror about toxoplasma. conclusive data has arrived that toxoplasma distorts human social interaction.

Re:Cure?

[asuffield]

I'm having trouble conceiving of this enzyme as being dangerous when it is from inside the guts of a common (albeit in this case from an uncommon region) fish (remember, cats and seagulls aren't particularly fussy about which parts of a fish they eat).

Wild cats are fussy about what they eat, like many other large wild animals. Many domesticated ones never had a reason to learn not to eat intestines, because they've been fed from a tin all their life. Don't use their behaviour as a guideline.

Seagulls just don't care. If you're looking at a seagull, it probably has several diseases which are going to kill it. They just don't live that long in the first place, so it's not all that important. So long as they manage to breed before they die from all the crap they eat, it doesn't matter that it's tearing them up inside and will shorten their lifespan. This is a common trait with short-lived, fast-breeding creatures - if it doesn't kill them *right away*, the species survival is often improved by eating something rather than not eating it. A meal that kills it in six months is one that gives it enough time to breed again, which is a net win.

Re:Cure?

[asuffield]

i personally put a lot of faith in my immune system. i reckon i've already encountered this alleged terrifying flu, and many of its relatives.

It can only be contracted from handling the guts of dead infected birds. There are no other known infection vectors to date (and an infected human cannot transmit it).

Yeah, the media don't usually mention that part. There is no current bird flu threat, only a bunch of fuss about the possibility of one in the future.

Re:Cure?

[Paradise Pete]

but it'll leave you hollow inside

Seems to me that "inside" is the only place that anything can be hollow.

Re:Cure?

[The_mad_linguist]

Well, apparently it doesn't hurt the cod any.

Re:Cure?

[Tony Hoyle]

There is no current bird flu threat, only a bunch of fuss about the possibility of one in the future.

And of course if it does mutate we'll be back to square one.. because then it'll be a new kind of virus not the one we have now.

I'd laugh my ass off if the millions spent by governments stockpiling 'bird flu vaccine' turned out to be completely wasted.

Re:Cure?

[cryptoguy]

The virus has to mutate in order to be transmitted from human to human. What makes us think that a remedy against the current virus will be effective against the mutated one?

Re:Cure?

[R2.0]

Apples and oranges. Neither smallox nor polio was "cured", in the manner implied in the original post. Smallpox and polio have been (nearly) eradicated via removing their ability to infect new hosts, by means of vaccines protecting tose potential hosts. And the vaccines activated our own immune systems, and didn't have a direct effect on the smallpox and polio viruses.

This enzyme is being toutes as a "cure" in the sense that it can eliminate bird flue in those already infected by it by acting directly on the virus. That is how antibiotics work, and the GP has a point - if the stuff only kills 90%, there is a risk of resistant strains developing. For that matter, it's already happening - researchers are finding Tamiflu resistant strains of bird flu already.

Re:Cure?

[Tony Hoyle]

If so, is there anything that kills 100% of any virus, guaranteed?

A 20 megaton warhead should do the trick.

Heck, even plain bleach if you can't afford the uranium.

Re:Cure?

[Tony Hoyle]

says something to the effect of "everything you need I have given to you"

Cool. That means I already own a Wii and a PS3 and all the games for it.

I just need to work out where God has hidden it.

Re:Cure?

[deevnil]

Check these out, they work locally too. I don't see how you would stop a flu with either unless you could irradiate the whole body and selectively kill the bad parts.

Re:Cure?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Heck, I just want to know if fish guts make good sausage casings. You could immunize an entire population with just Jimmy Dean's Fish Guts Breakfast Sausage. If the enzyme kills 99% in such a small amount, why not jut make sure it's pumping through the blood veins of 10 million overweight Sweeds?

Re:Cure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would it be possible to treat domesticated livestock with this substance to limit the possibilities of it spreading through them?

Re:Cure?

[compro01]

rattlesnake venom appearently doesn't hurt the rattlesnakes any either.

Re:Cure?

[tzanger]

There's both factors of scale

heh. Fish... scale... good one!

Re:Cure?

[malsdavis]

Sorry, you are quite correct. Thankfully it is no longer afflicts the majority of countries around the world however.

Re:Cure?

[ultranova]

If it kills 99.9999% of the virus, would the same conclusion apply? If so, is there anything that kills 100% of any virus, guaranteed?

Yes, many things. A common candle flame, for example, will kill all carbon-based lifeforms that are immersed in it for long enough. The problem is that you are a carbon-based lifeform.

As lucrative as this might turn out to be

[zappepcs]

I'm sure that it would be much more lucrative if it also cured foot in mouth disease in politicians!

Today is a good day, cured bird flu and cancer all in one day. Alzhiemer's is near a cure, and there are more discoveries every day it seems. I think we need a cure for religion, or rather for militant religious zealotry.

No, my comment is not off topic or troll, militant religious zealotry is quickly becoming the last disease to cure!

Re:As lucrative as this might turn out to be

[Anonymous Coward]

MRZS: Militant Religious Zealotry Syndrome

Act of Cod?

[halovaa]

What God giveth, Cod taketh away

Re:Act of Cod?

[Short Circuit]

Can He break a single vaccine dose into thousands? :)

Re:Act of Cod?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Cod We Trust

OB Old North Korean joke

[Anonymous Coward]

Only Old North Korean Chicken Farmers need cod enzymes.

Re:OB Old North Korean joke

[JonathanR]

The new North Korean rabbit farmers will then need something calicivirus.

Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Bjarnason also believes that penzim might prove a cure for common flu and cold, eczema in children and arthritis."

That's all great, but I've been using Dr. Wurster's Miracle Decoction for 70 years. I'll be darned if I'll switch unless it also cures migraines and decapitation, at least.

Re:Yes, but...

[Nutria]

That's all great, but I've been using Dr. Wurster's Miracle Decoction for 70 years.

I'm sure that low-dose cocaine would make anyone feel well for a little while.

But since you've been using it for 70 years, it must not be that effective at curing the problem...

oh good

[ILuvRamen]

"the isolated fish enzyme killed 99 percent of H5N1 viruses"
yay, it left the ones that are immune so they can spread instead. Just give em some zinc and echinacea and chicken soup lol.

Re:oh good

[CastrTroy]

indicates that in five minutes, the isolated fish enzyme killed 99 percent of H5N1 viruses

You missed part of the sentence there, which completely changes the meaning. 99 percent was killed of within 5 minutes, it doesn't really state how much more was killed off after that, but it seems to me that if 99% of it was killed off in 5 minutes, that the rest of it could be pretty easily killed off.

Re:oh good

[Joebert]

I get the feeling bird flu is like a server uptime guarentee, best you're going to get is two digits before the dot.

Re:oh good

[Anonymous Coward]

"best you're going to get is two digits before the dot."

I hope some after that too... on average one whole day down for each 99 up is pretty frigging bad.

Re:oh good

[Joebert]

one whole day down for each 99 up is pretty frigging bad

What are you retarded ?
99/100 is great !

Re:oh good

[CastrTroy]

That depends on whether it's one whole day continuously, or one day total, but spread out over the 99 days evenly. I guess that still ends up being 14 minutes a day, which isn't great, but not unheard of for many systems that are still in use. I've seen systems that aren't accessible for an entire day every week. I'm not really sure who designs these systems, but when you see stuff like that, it makes you happy to see systems that are up 99% of the time. However, is it worse to have a system that has a known downtime 1 day out of 7 or a system that is up 99 days out of 100, but you don't know which day will be the day it's down. Granted even the systems i've seen with 1 day of scheduled maintenance every week have their down time, so I guess 99 out of 100 is pretty good.

Re:oh good

[cno3]

If someone has contracted the bird flu, a bowl of chicken soup is probably the last thing you should be giving them.

WTF???

[cosmicaug]

WTF? Bleach also kills H5N1 viruses. That does not make bleach a cure for the bird flu.

Re:WTF???

[Socks of Doom]

Bleach will also kill you. This enzyme, seeing as it was already in development for medicine and beauty products, hopefully won't.

Though I wouldn't go out and wolf down covergirl if you get the sniffles.

Re:WTF???

[HermanAB]

Even simpler than bleach, I'm sure heat will also kill them. Just strike match and burn the city down to kill all viruses...

The amazing Cod

[Giant Ape Skeleton]

Cod...is there anything they can't do?

Re:The amazing Cod

[cosmicaug]

Cod works in mysterious ways.

Re:The amazing Cod

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep itself from being driven close to extinction by overfishing?

Re:The amazing Cod

[Joebert]

Sparky still refuses to let me know when he needs to go out & poops in his tank, he can roll over & play dead really well though, he's been playing dead for two days now.

Re:The amazing Cod

[Jugalator]

Yes, you need a herring to cut down a tree. :-)

Re:The amazing Cod

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me more about this 'cod' you speak so fondly of!

Spurious results when not in live subjects

[Anonymous Coward]

I am guessing that adding purified water to H5N1 virus kills it too. But please, let's trust a short article published on the Icelandic Review about Icelandic cod and bird flu!?!

A few interesting things about the bird flu

[gd23ka]

and why I am sick and tired of the subject...

There are at least a dozen _known_ diseases that will just as gleefully sicken or even kill the human animal.
Why we're so upset about the bird flu and what makes it special, I don't know, except of course that the entire
subject is pushed into our faces and through our ears nonstop through the media. (Just to forestall some
comments: The rabies virus could mutate too and become airborne for all we know. Gnade uns Gott should that ever
happen).

One thing that is however noteworthy about the bird flu (wohoo!) is that "Tamiflu" the experimental drug that is
supposed to alleviate its symptoms was developed by Gilead Sciences, the company Donald Rumsfeld was Chairman
of the Board of during 1997 until being sworn in as Secretary of Defense in 2001. Another noteworthy thing is
that the United States Government has purchased and stockpiled large amounts of this largely unproven medication
and guess who still owns stock in Gilead? (La Rouche pharmaceuticals produces the drug but it pays royalties to
Gilead).

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Anonymous Coward]

So your saying bird flu isn't a real threat but Donald Rumsfeld is? Put the weed away - forgive your parents - get a life.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[cosmicaug]

There are at least a dozen _known_ diseases that will just as gleefully sicken or even kill the human animal.
Why we're so upset about the bird flu and what makes it special, I don't know, except of course that the entire
subject is pushed into our faces and through our ears nonstop through the media. (Just to forestall some
comments: The rabies virus could mutate too and become airborne for all we know. Gnade uns Gott should that ever
happen).

That's a pretty fucking awful example to pick.

It is bloody unlikely that rabies will mutate into an airborne virus anytime soon. It would essentially have to become a completely different virus.

Influenza, on the other hand, is known for it's amazing mutational and recombinational "ability".

Rabies is not known for causing great pandemics associated producing very substantial mortality.

Influenza, on the other hand, is known for causing great pandemics producing very substantial mortality.

Rabies does not truly have the potential to create massive epidemics in livestock animals which may serve as a reservoirs from whence a human disease outbreak may start.

Avian influenza, on the other hand, does.

Rabies does not truly have the potential to create massive epidemics in wild animals which may serve as widespread infectious sources for domestic animals and as a reservoir from whence a human disease outbreak may start.

Avian influenza, on the other hand, does.

Animal infected by rabies are very rarely (if ever) the types to engage in the sorts of great migrations which may sometimes literally span the globe.

Animals infected by avian influenza, on the other hand, sometimes are.

I could probably go on (or maybe not --but I'm not about to try).

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[gd23ka]

I picked rabies for the "Shock and Awe" effect (remember that slogan from somewhere?). I suppose
Ebola virus or the lesser known Marburg virus would be better candidates. But then you might
also note that Rabies has claimed to our knowledge more human lives than the bird flu.

Another fact is, virii and other pathogens have been out and about for a Very-Long-Time and the bird
flu didn't just appear yesterday. In other words, it had plenty of opportunity for
thousands of years to kill us - just like the thousands of virii we don't even know about and
that could cull the human herd any day.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Courageous]

Influenza variations concern the CDC more than any other disease vector.

FYI.

C//

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Waffle Iron]

Nevertheless, in contrast to most every other disease, an influenza pandemic *did* suddenly kill ~50 million people less than a century ago. This proves that it can happen, and nothing fundamental has changed that would prevent it from happening again. None of your hemming and hawing changes that.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[BeaverCleaver]

IIRC, part of the reason we're so worried about influenza is because the virus has no proofreading of its RNA when the virus replicates. Therefore the frequency of mutation is much higher than for other types of viruses, incresing the probability of something nasty appearing.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[gd23ka]

Nothing fundamental has changed that it will be the bird flu that will kill any sizeable
portion of the world's population and still it is getting watts of media attention.

An asteroid impact by the way is just as likely and will prove probably far deadlier to
all species on the planet.

A little less likely than the asteroid scenario but still a possibility would be a
gamma ray burst caused by some calamity of sorts like a supernova in our nearer
interstellar neighborhood. Mighty bird flu might survive that, though it would be a
phyric victory without a host.

I'm sure that between us and the rest of slashdot we can come up with a couple of
hundred likely doomsday scenarios before the discussion goes overboard with say "DRM enforcing
land mines". As it stands, the flu issue is getting too much attention and I for one
refuse to participate in what I perceive to be a Fear Uncertainty and Doubt campaign.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I thought all this attention was because of how quickly it spreads in birds. If it somehow "jumped", then by the time it is noticed, it could be too late to stop it.

I really have not seen much attention given to this disease since last year, so I don't know what your trouble is in saying it's being pushed "nonstop".

I didn't know that about Tamiflu, but I thought that many governments were stockpiling it, not that it would make any difference.

There are plenty of diseases out there though.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Otter]

Besides, if Donald Rumsfeld really managed to convince the whole world to buy Tamiflu for no reason, that'd be a diplomatic triumph rather out of character for the Bush administration. Maybe he should get Rice's job.

Anyway I'm reluctant to trust inside pharmaceutical news from someone who thinks the drug is made by "La Rouche pharmaceuticals" -- that's like referring to "McDonaldsoft Windows".

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[blueskies]

You are still missing the point that influenza has already caused a pandemic! Research around 1918. My great-grandmother died in the pandemic. The worst part is that it killed the young and then strong. So millions of young healthy people were killed by it and it would be asinine to ignore conditions that might come together to create another pandemic. If it takes a number of factors to co-join before becoming a pandemic, isn't it a good idea to try and prevent them from happening?

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Waffle Iron]

An asteroid impact by the way is just as likely and will prove probably far deadlier to all species on the planet.

That's complete bunk. Please at least do some rudimentary analysis before spouting off.

An asteroid like the one that killed off the dinosaurs might hit every 50,000,000 years, so your lifetime risk of being killed by that is around 2 in 1 million. Far more likely is a smallish asteroid that hits an ocean and causes a tsunami that wipes out several coastal cities, maybe killing 1% of the world's population, but that's still not likely to happen more than every 10,000 years. So that's about a 1 in 1 million lifetime risk averaged over the whole population. If you add in intermediate cases, you probably get several more 1 in 1 million chances; let's say 1 in 100,000.

By contrast, a single pandemic within the past lifetime killed about 3% of the population. Just that event indicates a lifetime risk somewhere in the ballpark of 1 in 30. Even if that was an anomaly, there's no doubt that the pandemic risk is orders of magnitude greater than the risks from asteroids. If anything, there's currently too much hype about asteroid impacts and not enough on disease outbreaks.

The risk of gamma ray bursts is totally negligible because there are no stars within a lethal range that are at risk of going supernova.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[jezmund]

There are at least a dozen _known_ diseases that will just as gleefully sicken or even kill the human animal. Why we're so upset about the bird flu and what makes it special, I don't know, except of course that the entire subject is pushed into our faces and through our ears nonstop through the media. (Just to forestall some comments: The rabies virus could mutate too and become airborne for all we know. Gnade uns Gott should that ever happen).

I'm not sure why this is "interesting". The reason there is such an interest in the bird flu is due to the danger it poses. It's quite simple, actually. Due to a couple factors I won't get into here, the flu mutates very quickly. The obvious consequence of this is that it is constantly evading the human immune system. It also means that it can quickly mutate to forms that are far more deadly and far more transmissible than the flu normally is. Currently, the bird flu already has the "far more deadly" aspect. It kills roughly 50% of the people infected with it. As of right now, it still has trouble being transmitted, so it is not killing many people. However, due to the ease with which the flu mutates it is very simple for the bird flu to become highly infectious. So, we're a chance encounter away from a virus that could quickly kill millions of people in a single season. Moreover, there is a precedent for this: the 1918 flu. And that flu had a lower mortality rate than H5N1 currently has. Will H5N1 mutate to quickly spread among humans? We don't know. What we do know is that it most certainly will mutate, and that it has the ability to mutate into a pandemic form.

As for Tamiflu, your point only makes sense if Donald Rumsfeld controls the entire scientific and medical communities, as well as the worldwide press. I suggest that instead of reading conspiracy theory bulletin boards, you check out the Flu Wiki to find out more about the subject.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[finity]

I hear this type of argument used very frequently these days. "It's possible that any virus could kill us, and the bird flu hasn't been a really serious problem yet, why should we waste so much energy on it?" "It's possible that terrorists could attack us in all sorts of ways some of which we haven't even thought of yet, and nobody has attacked us with airplanes in a few years, why should there still be so many airport restrictions?"

I don't mean to imply that the Government (or the media) is right or wrong to use it's power in the way it currently does, I just want to point out that this type of argument isn't helpful or correct. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared for it. People have presented valid reasons why the bird flu is important to pay attention to, and it's the job of the folks in charge to figure out how to prepare for a problem before one occurs. I wouldn't be happy if a hurricane suddenly hit New Orleans and destroyed the levees, and the Government wasn't able to respond correctly and quickly, because it's their job to be ready for the sort of crazy stuff that hasn't happened (or hasn't happened recently).

Instead of focusing on how we shouldn't be thinking about something, lets focus on _how_ we should be thinking about something, or at worst _how much_ we should be thinking about something. That'll make discussions more useful.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Animal infected by rabies are very rarely (if ever) the types to engage in the sorts of great migrations which may sometimes literally span the globe.

Oh yeah? How about flying monkeys with rabies?

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[misanthrope101]

You're hearing about it because during WWI the flu killed more people than said World War. The flu can be amazingly deadly if you get the right strain. While it's true that any disease could mutate and kill us all (staph and e. coli are good candidates) the flu has already shown itself to be a particularly nasty critter. They'd rather panic about it when there is still time to try to avert the catastrophe.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[AArmadillo]

The bird flu of 1918 was probably the most deadly pandemic since the black death. Possibly AIDS has been more deadly, though not over as short a time. Not only was it incredibly deadly, but it killed off young, healthy people just as much as it killed off old, sickly people. That is why doctors and the media worry about the bird flu.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[TheLink]

The difference between bird flu and the asteroid/gamma ray stuff, is we are currently more likely to be able to do something about bird flu AND there appears to be popular willingness to try.

I would personally be happier if people _also_ came up with something workable vs the asteroid/comet problem, but most people don't seem interested anyway.

There's nothing much we can do about the gamma ray problem.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Kokuyo]

The More interesting thing to note is that Hoffmann LaRoche itself stated that they didn't know whether Tamiflu could do squat against bird flu. And still the Swiss government ordered like tons of the stuff. You have to ask yourself what's really behind all this crap.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Anonymous Coward]

H5N1 has evolved into a flu virus strain that infects more species than any previously known flu virus strain, is deadlier than any previously known flu virus strain, and continues to evolve becoming both more widespread and more deadly causing the world's number one expert on avian flu to publish an article titled "The world is teetering on the edge of a pandemic that could kill a large fraction of the human population" in American Scientist. He called for adequate resources to fight what he sees as a major world threat to possibly billions of lives. Since the article was written, the world community has spent billions of dollars fighting this threat with limited success. It is a race between an exceptionally fast mutating virus and modern scientific research capabilities, with the winner of the race still in doubt. Sources for evidence of the reality of the threat posed by H5N1 can be found at the Wikipedia SERIES of articles on H5N1 covering its genetics, the human clinical trials underway, its global spread, its transmission and infection, and the consequences it has already caused in devestating the world wide poultry farming industry causing suicides among some poor farmers and refusal to assist in fighting H5N1 among other poor poultry farmers which further increases the risks of mutation to a pandemic strain.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[lukesl]

I'm not defending Rumsfeld, but Tamiflu is not an experimental drug, and it has been shown to work against the H5N1 virus in humans. I think the real questions surrounding the efficacy of Tamiflu will not be related to the drug itself, but the question of whether it can be distributed quickly enough, etc.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[compro01]

Why we're so upset about the bird flu and what makes it special, I don't know,

because something very similar happened back in 1918. the "spanish flu" epidemic was actually an avian flu that came from china which mutated into a human-to-human transmissable form.

combine a similarly deadly virus with modern transportation and our higher population density, and we would have one hell of a mess on our hands.

it has happened before, so it is completely probable that it can happen again.

while i do think the tamiflu thing is a possible conflict-of-interest situation in the government, i also think that we shouldn't just stick our heads in the sand and ignore the danger, and that the money spent on tamiflu should have been put into research.

Re:A few interesting things about the bird flu

[Anonymous Coward]

I would just like to take this opportunity to say that you sir, are a fucking imbecile. Thank you.

Smells fishy...

[Wdi]

Seriously.

It is highly unlikely that any enzyme can be developed into any useful cure for a virus infection, for pharmacokinetics, transport and stability issues alone.

It is not difficult to kill anything. The same amount of bleach would kill reliably 100% of the virus in the test tube.

The problem is to develop a substance which is selective, has acceptable side-effects and actually reaches the target when the virus has embedded itself in the cells, which is not easy.

Re:Smells fishy...

[chromozone]

I am not a biologist and get confused when people talk about things that "kill" a virus when I have always been told a virus is not alive. "It has been argued extensively whether viruses are living organisms. Most virologists consider them non-living, as they do not meet all the criteria of the generally accepted definition of life. They are similar to obligate intracellular parasites as they lack the means for self-reproduction outside a host cell, but unlike parasites, viruses are generally not considered to be true living organisms. A definitive answer is still elusive because some organisms considered to be living exhibit characteristics of both living and non-living particles, as viruses do" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus

Re:Smells fishy...

[Anonymous Coward]

They render it unable to function, incapable of causing further infection, and otherwise inert.

Re:Smells fishy...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's still kinda debated whether or not a virus is alive. True, they don't exhibit ALL of the classical signs of life, but they essentially parasitize other organisms to accomplish those functions. Hint: no complex organism can function without other organisms around, whether it is a predator/prey relationship, grazer, decomposer, nitrogen fixer... the list can go on. A virus represents a gray area between living and non-living, which are just human made terms. Human made groups to describe natural systems almost universally have some fuzziness around the edge where something does not definitively fit into one group or another. But that's more of a philosophical discussion.

To cover the bases of a linguistic pedant, kill has a secondary semantic meaning which is something along the lines of "to render inoperable." When somebody says "Kill the music" it is generally accepted that it means turn the volume down or off. The phrase "I killed the engine trying to get my car out of the snowbank" does not imply that the engine was once a living organism. When people talk about disinfection, the meaning of "killing X% of viruses" is generally well understood.

Re:Smells fishy...

[GeffDE]

Most plants do not require other organisms. While some plants use nitrogen fixers (like legumes, peanuts and clover), there are others, like cotton, which do not rely on nitrogen fixers and will just suck all the nitrogen out of the soil. This is why George Washington Carver advocated rotating cotton with peanuts. The same goes for trees. Granted, plants would eventually all perish if there were no decomposers, but if they were fed artifical fertilizers, they do not depend on other organisms the way viruses depend on others.

That's not the point I want to make though. Although multicellular organisms are much more complex than a bacteria, bacteria are many many many times more complex than viruses. Viruses are basically a protective capsule around genetic information, similar to, but stil less complex than the nucleus in a eukaryotic cell. Bacteria have many different structures and functions, including many pathways (generally more than even eukaryotic cells) for generating energy, as well as structures for regulating both the environment inside and outside their cellular membrane. All these bacteria are completely independent. The debate over whether viruses are alive or dead is not about whether something depends on something else, or how complex it is. It really boils down to this: 1) Biologists claim that there are 7 indications of life that must be met for something to be alive, and viruses do not meet all these criteria; 2) biologists also say that the central point of life, its meaning if you will, is to reproduce, and viruses certainly do do this. If viruses replicate and adapt like living things even though they do not exhibit all the signs of life, are they alive? That is the question...

Re:Smells fishy...

[janneH]

Yeah - it reminds me of what we used to call the Sigma Experiment. Go to the Sigma Chemical Company catalog - pick 100 compounds at random - dump them on your cells and see what happens. Some will die, some will grow more, express more or less of one protein or the other. Lots of stuff will happen. Take the results from the compound(s) that kill cells and write a paper entitled "Cytotoxic effects of compound A on human Z (preferably a common cancer) cells" - ending with the sentence - "....these results suggest that compound A is a potential therapuetic agent for [the cancer in question]". That is so far from making a drug as to be irrelevant - and even damaging (loss of trees). This may indeed lead to a drug - but more than 99.99% of reports like this do not.

Re:Smells fishy...

[Assassin bug]

To add to your comment... Viruses can't reproduce, they can only replicate. Complexity aside, this key characteristic separates viruses from eukaryotes and prokaryotes. Maybe it seems like an arbitrary line to draw for living or non-living, but it's convenient enough for me at the moment. It also avoids a chain of "is this alive" questions to roll through prions and viroids and the like.

Re:Smells fishy...

[aXis100]

I think you're being a bit pedantic in this case. Everyone understands what it meaans to "kill" a virus, even though a virus may or may not be defined as alive.

Re:Smells fishy...

[WPL510]

You left out a big problem with other peptides that demonstrate a broad spectrum of antimicrobial activity with decent selectivity: Cost. If you want to market it seriously, it better not run a few thousand dollars per treatment.

This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[Soloact]

This might bring back the old use of Cod Liver Oil. Our Grandmothers weren't stupid, they knew its health benefits.

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[Anonymous Coward]

...or they fell for all the marketing hype. christ they used to make you drink crap like castor oil. yeah loads of benefits there, thats why nobody uses it any more.

detox solutions anybody?

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[toetagger1]

I didn't know they had bird flue back then.

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[Colin Smith]

Actually, there are good reasons to take cod liver oil anyway.

1. Helps with joints. Rich in Omega3 oils.
2. Helps with memory and other brain function, including mental illness. another feature of Omega3 oils
3. Helps with cardiovascular health. yet another feature of Omega3 oils
3. Contains vitamin D, helps with bones.

Either that or eat fish 2-3 times per week. I'm not a big fish fan myself but look at the Japanese or Mediterranean diets, high in fish. The longest lived people are the Okinawans, lots of fish, and seaweed as well.

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that this comes from the intestines, not the liver.

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[Jeff DeMaagd]

This was discussed on Science Friday. The problem with cod liver oil is that it doesn't keep well and usually loses its potency before the buyer consumes it. If it tastes bad, then the omega 3 oils are lost. The Japanese eat fresh fish very shortly after catch, not fish that's been stored a while or oils that have been extracted and sitting on store shelves for too long. One thing I thought was odd is that the fish are getting those oils from the plant life, so that's probably how kelp figures in.

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF is all this "flue" garbage I'm seeing in these threads? A flue is a is a duct, pipe, or chimney. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flue The proper shortening of the word "influenza" is "flu". Stop infecting words with useless vowel bloat.

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[eluusive]

Or you could use flax seed oil instead and stop eating so many omega-6's instead of consuming oil from a practically endangered species.

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[PCM2]

I didn't know they had bird flu back then.

EXACTLY!!

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[Colin Smith]

The body has to convert flax seed oil into into omega 3s. You need to consume 10 times as much for the same beneficial effects.

Re:This May Bring Back The Old Cure-All

[eluusive]

ALA is an Omega-3 fat. It doesn't get converted to one. Good luck finding a vegetarian source of ALA metabolites. Oh, but go head, destroy all the Cod so you don't have to use Canola oil. And, for your information ANY Omega-3 supplement you use is not going to provide enough to balance out your Omega-6 laden diet. What, you get about 1 gram of omega 3 from your supplement? How much Omega-6 are you consuming? You're better off switching to cooking at home w/ Canola oil rather than take those ridiculous supplements.

As pie in the sky as this might turn out to be

[Anonymous Coward]

"No, my comment is not off topic or troll, militant religious zealotry is quickly becoming the last disease to cure!"

Since we're asking for things. I would like global peace and happiness. Plenty of food, water, and shelter for everyone. Oh, and I would like a pony.

Tremendous efficiency...

[Anonymous Coward]

...as it kills a high percentage of virii. What about the other living tissue? -jl

ineed!

[RelliK]

Kill Bird flu with Fish!

Beautiful

[digitalhermit]

Many species of cod are endangered or near-endangered. A while ago some politician (don't remember who) made a statement to the effect that, "who cares about insect." Would be funny if human survival ended up being dependent on some obscure snail.

Re:Beautiful

[dbcad7]

I remember reading that Cod were getting smaller, because the smaller fish escaping the nets, were breeding with smaller fish escaping the nets.. Looked for a link and can't find the story... maybe I dreamed it.. Never mind.

Re:Beautiful

[Anonymous Coward]

A snail is not an insect, it's a mollusc.

Re:Beautiful

[schnikies79]

As long as you can isolate and determine the structure, you can usually synthesize it. No need to have actual cod.

Re:Beautiful

[digitalhermit]

And a cod is not an insect, it's a fish.

Re:Beautiful

[VTMarik]

And if you can't synthesize it, you can manipulate the genes that produce the enzyme to produce it in greater qualities in other animals or even fruit. Hooray for science!

Sweet hype

[Kohath]

This is great. A story hyping a cure for an ultra-hyped disease. This will be handy if bird flu actually becomes a real problem rather than a drive-by media hype-fest.

I hope they also cure SARS, maybe with some kind of halibut mucus.

finally, a panacea!

[JeyKottalam]

YAY, finally those damn scientists got off their ass and found a cure-all! We've been waiting ages for this!

</sarcasm>

Birds/Fish

[Nux'd]

Nice one nature..

Give the ability to fight off bird flu to an animal most unlikely to encounter a bird.

Lucky fishes..

Re:Birds/Fish

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Fishmeal is often used as chicken food.

Re:Birds/Fish

[Nux'd]

Are you suggesting that the fish meal needs to defend itself?

cure

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean we finally have a cure from the common cod?

Well that explains it

[mgabrys_sf]

Probably why I've never seen a Cod sneeze before.

Re:Well that explains it

[Anonymous Coward]

That's awesome. Best post I've seen all week.

Stop the presses!

[overtly_demure]

Wow! An enzyme destroys bird flu viruses under carefully controlled lab conditions in saline buffer, therefore it will also kill them in a greasy and presumably protein-denaturing cosmetic preparation! Not only is this horrible non-disease that has so far been a miniscule threat to humans now defeated, albeit only in principle and under conditions completely different than those being proposed, but it can be done by simply wearing makeup! Don't fear the bird flu, get all decadent and wear lots of makeup! While you're at it, drink! Do drugs! Have sex with abandon! Buy lots of cool stuff! Get totally wild! Buy an iPhone! Run around in the street screaming and singing while flailing your arms around and lolling your tongue! Take cell phone videos of yourself and friends doing it all! We are saved!

Yet another example of shameless self-promotion by a scientist who should know better. Much better.

Re:Stop the presses!

[crazyjimmy]

Wow! An enzyme destroys bird flu viruses under carefully controlled lab conditions in saline buffer, therefore it will also kill them in a greasy and presumably protein-denaturing cosmetic preparation! Not only is this horrible non-disease that has so far been a miniscule threat to humans now defeated, albeit only in principle and under conditions completely different than those being proposed, but it can be done by simply wearing makeup! Don't fear the bird flu, get all decadent and wear lots of makeup! While you're at it, drink! Do drugs! Have sex with abandon! Buy lots of cool stuff! Get totally wild! Buy an iPhone! Run around in the street screaming and singing while flailing your arms around and lolling your tongue! Take cell phone videos of yourself and friends doing it all! We are saved! Yet another example of shameless self-promotion by a scientist who should know better. Much better.
Hey!

Leave the iPhone outta this!

Lilly the Pink

[HermanAB]

A cure for everything likely doesn't cure anything...

Let's drink, a drink, a drink,
to Lilly the Pink, the pink, the pink,
The saviour of the human race.
For she invented,
Medicinal compound,
which saved the world of misery.

yummy

[FudRucker]

fish guts, its whats for dinner :)

I wonder if...

[__aaclcg7560]

If cod enzyme is the same as a cod liver oil, then I should be safe since I take that with my vitamins.

where do you get ideas like this

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean do you just wake up one day and think "hmmm who would win between fish extract and bird flu. there's only one way to find out.... FIGHT!"

or is it "I have isolated this stuff and now I'm gonna check it against everything in existance just in case it is good for it and I will have discovered something"

its just too random.

Ok. I'll bite.

[BillGatesLoveChild]

Do Seagulls get bird flu?

Extinction

[Anonymous Coward]

Just one more GOOD reason why overfishing, or hunting a species to extinction is a bad thing (obvious moral issues aside...).

Same goes for cutting and burning down the rain forest... kinda interesting that after that clear cutting and burning the giant air purifier thingy called the Amazon jungle we have global warming... ummm, PLANTS soak up CO2 so it follows that less plants to do that = more CO2 and less O2...

Just because we're the dominant species on the planet doesn't mean we get to exterminate everything else... Indeed, it puts a great burden upon us to not do so and to get along with the other residents on this grand ball in space...

Sadly enough, this will likely NOT serve as a wakeup call to the schmucks that like to slash and burn everything in sight in the pursuit of $$$, but will likely have the opposite effect... It's a bad day to be an icelandic cod - if this thing pans out, they're likely gone...

Re:Cure? Consider the source

[vajrabum]

Am I really the first person to google up "penzim" from the referenced article? This is an over the counter health food store remedy made and presumably sold in Iceland with all sorts of claims being made for it. The story doesn't say whether the "research results" were in vivo or in vitro or give any other relevant details that would allow you to even begin to evaluate the claim. Doesn't anyone else think this most likely overblown hype? It'd be great if it weren't hype, but c'mon....

How wonderful!

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Soon, we will be safe from the most dangerous disease of all! So many people have been killed by Bird Fl... wait a minute... that's not right at all.

Re:How wonderful!

[NSIM]

Soon, we will be safe from the most dangerous disease of all! So many people have been killed by Bird Fl... wait a minute... that's not right at all.

Sigh..., what we know about Bird Flu includes: 1. When it does infect humans it has a very high mortality rate (about 80% IIRC) 2. It's an influenza virus with a well documented history of mutating and causing massive epidemics So far (2) hasn't happened, but what the risk is very real, feel free to stick your head in the sand and ignore the risk if you like. Don't expect responsible governments to do so. Just consider a flu virus hitting the US with on a 10% mortality rate and infecting millions, you would at best get hundreds of thousands of dead in relatively short period of time, and if it followed the pattern of the 1918 pandemic, then those dead would be heavily skewed towards young, fit, adults.

No doubt it will be held back

[iminplaya]

until it's patented. Money comes first, you know.

Re:No doubt it will be held back

[Anonymous Coward]

It's already patented.

Re:No doubt it will be held back

[iminplaya]

We're saved! The system works.

Here ya go

[iminplaya]

If it's ok to torture "terrorists" if what they know will save thousands of lives, why can't we torture scientists and corporate presidents for the same thing? Hmmm?

Careful

[Dunbal]

This is a complete load of crap. Penzim/Penzyme is one of these homeopathic claims that has NO support in the scientific community. The claims are bogus, there is no real research to back this up. Someone is hoping to be the new "shark cartilage" fad. Of course a slashvert helps a lot. Buyer beware!

That explains why Cod don't get bird flu.....

[Whiteox]

Clever aren't I :-)

Flu is newsworthy because it's killed before

[derdesh]

One reason epidemiologists are especially concerned about avian flu because flu pandemics have killed tens of millions of people before. This was in 1918 when the public health system was less developed, but population densities and the mobility of the human population are much greater today.

Another respondent has already detailed the other reasons why an avian flu is logistically more threatening. Your political/conspiracy theory may be completely true and valid, but the fact remains that people are concerned about the flu rather than ebola or airborne rabies because it's the disease that has been observed to kill in great numbers in the recent, documented past.

The fact that Donald Rumsfeld might be profiteering from the hype does not mean that avian flu is not a real threat.

Killing Ourselves to Death

[Doc Ruby]

Good thing there's enough cod to go around!

Oh, wait, we've overfished cod into near extinction already, before we've even started grinding them up for birdflu shots.

Can it cure E.D. too?

[pestilence669]

You know what else kills bird flu (in much less than 5 minutes)? Ajax (the cleaner), bleach, fire, sulfuric acid, and I'm sure rat poison will do *something*

I'd like to see what this ass-grease (I mean, intestinal enzyme) does when it's actually injected into someone. Until then, I refuse to get excited about something that's less effective than Clorox.

Re:Can it cure E.D. too?

[Chrondeath]

As opposed to Ajax (the archer), who's probably a bit macroscopic for virus-killing.

Re:Can it cure E.D. too?

[Kehvarl]

He -is- one of the best archers to ever live, and with a little magical oomf from Skeeve, I bet Ajax could do something about bird flu viruses.

Most efficacious in every case.

[Anonymous Coward]

We'll drink a drink a drink To Lily the Pink the Pink the Pink
The saviour of the human race For she invented medicinal compound
Most efficacious in every case.

Mr. Frears had sticky-out ears
and it made him awful shy and so they gave him medicinal compound
and now he's learning how to fly.

Brother Tony Was notably bony
He would never eat his meals And so they gave him medicinal compound
Now they move him round on wheels.

We'll drink a drink a drink To Lily the Pink the Pink the Pink
The saviour of the human race For she invented medicinal compound
Most efficacious in every case.

Old Ebeneezer Thought he was Julius Caesar
And so they put him in a Home where they gave him medicinal compound
and now he's Emperor of Rome.

Johnny Hammer Had a terrible stammer
He could hardly say a word And so they gave him medicinal compound
Now he's seen (but never heard)!

We'll drink a drink a drink To Lily the Pink the Pink the Pink
The saviour of the human race For she invented medicinal compound
Most efficacious in every case.

Auntie Millie
Ran willy-nilly
When her legs, they did recede
And so they rubbed on medicinal compound
And now they call her Millipede.

Jennifer Eccles
had terrible freckles
and the boys all called her names
but she changed with medicinal compound
and now he joins in all their games.

We'll drink a drink a drink
To Lily the Pink the Pink the Pink
The saviour of the human race
For she invented medicinal compound
Most efficacious in every case.

Lily the Pink, she
Turned to drink, she
Filled up with paraffin inside
and despite her medicinal compound
Sadly Picca-Lily died.

Up to Heaven
Her soul ascended
All the church bells they did ring
She took with her medicinal compound
Hark the herald angels sing.

Oooooooooooooooo Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'll drink a drink a drink
To Lily the Pink the Pink the Pink
The saviour of the human race
For she invented medicinal compound
Most efficacious in every case.

http://www.thebards.net/mp3/BrobdingnagianBards-Li ly_the_Pink.mp3

You're confusing a virus with a bacteria

[WhackingDay]

If I recall my virology class, a virus usually randomly mutates, causing it's receptors to take on a different biochemical arrangement, which is what leads to resistance to antibodies. Most inoculations against flu are a weakened version of a virus, which causes an immune response. Using an enzymatic agent against a virus seems a novel approach.

Bacteria are constantly going through many generations and exposure to various drugs can cause many mutations as a response. Newly mutated bacteria that can survive the drug are selected out of the others, leading to a resistant version.

Not an issue.

[jd]

Cod in that part of the world is virtually extinct, due to overfishing. It's at 5% of the pre-1960s stock and at 1% of the pre-1900s size (based on assorted studies on decline in fish populations and variation that the BBC has linked to from time to time). On that basis, there simply aren't enough fish to satisfy the Icelandic medical industry and the demand for fresh cod, particularly by Britain and Spain.

The governments across Europe will do what any normal person would do when faced with the choice of a potentially life-saving cure for foreigners they will never know and a nice, fat check they can cash the same day. They'll make life hard on the researchers to stop them putting the country over-quota. They have to. If they don't and cod proves a useful source for new treatments, they risk losing out on the bribes they're taking. They won't make money off the new treatments, only the American drug companies will. They have zero incentive to allow this R&D and many reasons to prevent it.

(I might sound cynical, but that's only an illusion. This is text, so there's really no sound at all.)

Re:Not an issue.

[BrokenHalo]

On that basis, there simply aren't enough fish to satisfy the Icelandic medical industry and the demand for fresh cod.

This is true. However, if (and as far as I'm concerned, that's a very big "if") the enzyme checks out as the hype suggests, it might be a comparatively small step to synthesise it in a tank. I haven't checked any of the databases (http://ca.expasy.org is one I use a lot) to look for sequences, but it is no longer beyond the bounds of possibility to sequence the cod genome sufficiently to isolate the code for the enzyme. From there, a simple cut&paste into a bacterial or convenient fungal chromosome might fit the bill. However, all bets are off if the enzyme needs any post-translational modification or chaperoning to fold it the right way.

I need to patent this quick...

[CPE1704TKS]

Quite possibly enzymes extracted from chicken intestines will probably kill the dreaded Cod Flu virus. And maybe eczema in adults as well.

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Waterfront property

[WobindWonderdog]

Bjarnason also believes that penzim might prove a cure for common flu and cold, eczema in children and arthritis." Sounds a bit snake liver oilish to me... Reminds me of a scene in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather...

Recent Runes: "Spold's Unstirring Divisor would do it. Very simply, too. You'd end up with a large beaker full of all the nastiness. Not difficult at all, if you don't mind the side effects."
Susan: "Tell me about the side effects."
Recent Runes: "The main one is that the rest of him would end up in a somewhat larger beaker."
Susan: "Alive?"
Recent Runes: "Broadly, yes. Living tissue, certainly. And definitely sober."

snake oil? no, cod oil!

[nobody/incognito]

dontcha know, this drug is also used for treating pain, inflammation, acute or chronic inflammation, arthritis, inflamed joints, bursitis, osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, septic arthritis, fibromyalgia, systemic lupus erythematosus, phlebitis, eczema, rash, psoriasis, acne, wounds and candidiasis.

not to mention viral infections such as herpes outbreaks, fungal, bacterial or parasitic infections, including colitis, ulcers, hemorrhoids, corneal scarring, dental plaque and immune disorders including autoimmune disease.

and let's not forget treating or prophylactically preventing an indication selected from the group consisting of pain, inflammation, acute or chronic inflammation, arthritis, inflamed joints, bursitis, osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, septic arthritis, fibromyalgia, systemic lupus erythematosus and phlebitis.

but why stop there? it is also used for treating or prophylactically preventing dermatological conditions such as e.g. acne, rash, psoriasis or eczema, including facial seborrheic eczema or eczema of the hands, face, scalp or neck, hemorrhoids and the like.

furthermore, treating or prophylactically preventing wound infection and debriding wounds (by applying to the wound a microbial infection-preventing effective amount of the enzyme or by enhancing the healing of wounds by administering a microbe inhibiting effective amount of the enzyme), when treated the wound can be substantially free of necrotic tissue; removing dead or peeling skin from otherwise healthy skin to improve the skin's appearance, where preferably the amount of the enzyme administered is a dead skin removing effective amount.

hold on to your hat, they are treating or prophylactically preventing cystic fibrosis, cancer, e.g. by administering a tumor treating effective amount or a tumor metastasis preventing or inhibiting amount of enzyme, atherosclerosis, asthma, septic shock, toxic shock syndrome, tissue adhesions such as tendon-sheath, abdominal post-surgical or joint adhesions, reperfusion injury, malaria, immune disorder such as an autoimmune disease, apoptosis, colitis and enteritis, such as Crohn's disease.

can't stop now, they're treating or prophylactically preventing a microbial infection, e.g. a viral infection such as a herpes virus infection (e.g. HSV-1, HSV-2, herpes zoster or genital herpes infection), HIV, hepatitis, influenza, coronavirus, cytomegalovirus, rhinovirus or papilloma virus infection; an infection causing a gastrointestinal disease such as ulcer or diarrhoea; a fungal infection such as systemic, skin, oral, vaginal or esophageal fungal infection, including e.g. yeast infection, including a fungal nail infection and candida infections; microbial infections of the eye, preferably treated with ocular administrations; bacterial infections including infection by Staphylococcus spp., Streptococcus spp., Klebsiella spp., Pseudomonas spp., Neisseria gonorrheae, Haemophilus spp., Chlamydia spp., syphilis and E. coli infections and bacterial infections causing chancroid; opportunistic microbial infections in immunocompromised patients.

and, holy mother god, removing dental plaque, where preferably the amount of the enzyme administered is a dental plaque removing effective amount; and lysing blood clots, where preferably the amount of the enzyme is a clot lysing effective amount.

i'm talking a miracle drug here: the technology also provides (a) methods for treating or prophylactically preventing a cell-cell or cell-virus adhesion related syndrome, comprising administering an anti-adhesion effective amount of the cod trypsins or chymotrypsins or related peptidases effective to remove or inactivate a cellular or viral acceptor or receptor adhesion component that is involved in the cell-cell or cell-virus adhesion, (b) compositions or substances for use in such methods, (c) pharmaceutical compositions containing effective amounts of enzyme for use in such methods, and (d) uses of the en

Cure Discovery Procedure

[MBHkewl]

I'd like to see a documentary showing how these scientists discovered that cod intestines can cure bird flue...

*imagining the following: Scientists beating patients silly, with cod fish, shouting: "HEAL! HEEAAALL!"*

*Raising a finger*
Can we please see pictures of both the patient(s) & the fish? Yes, before AND after... Thank You!

What about...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wondering if scientists are working to figure out if any humans have the cod gene.

Heh

[Windwraith]

This is good news for the birds. Now instead of throwing them into a pit we can save them too.
Oh? No? Just for us? Heck, my pet chicken is not going to be happy about this...

re: smaller cod

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this what you're thinking of?

"With big, older fish selectively culled from a stock, only fish with the genes to mature early have a chance to reproduce, Heino explains. This carries important implications for the fishing industry because, he notes, "this change in maturation age means that fish begin [prematurely] allocating energy into reproduction - instead of growth." The result, he says, are more slowly growing adults, which translate into lower fishing yields."
http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/artic les/empty_nets.html

The article also states that the average age at which codfish mature has dropped from 9-10 years to 6-7 years as a result of overfishing. It's too bad cod aren't as cute as baby seals ...

Viruses

[dexter riley]

Viruses. The plural of virus is viruses.

Re:Viruses

[Max Littlemore]

And the singular for of wii wus.

What?

[SinGunner]

It's not snake oil, you insensitive cod!

Isn't cod already overfished?

[wikinerd]

Poor cod. It's already overfished by the fishing industry, and if the pharmaceuticals decide to start catching it too, it will get extinct as quick as you can count 1, 2, 3.

We need more aquacultures in the short term and better biogenetic technology in the long term. Some day we may eat cloned food we grow in the laboratory, and let nature alone to recover.

Re:Isn't cod already overfished?

[DragonTHC]

yes, but that's why they would farm them.

the next test is to see if farmed cod would do the same thing.

Re:Isn't cod already overfished?

[jonhaug]

There is cod and there is cod. The cod fished outside the northern part of Norway is not overfished due to heavy regulation, but it is threatened, not at all by (legal) overfishing, but by illegal fishing, by (potential) oil spills, by other pollution and by global warming. There is a long time tradition to produce cod liver oil in this country, and there are products that extract the good part and remove any heavy metals that inevitable are a part of the cod's liver. Here are some refs:

There are also a lot of studies that confirm the health aspects of this substance. Of course, most of the studies must be read carefully, but I do find this interesting anyway. Other refs:

Jon (from Norway AND with a relative in the business).

Re:Isn't cod already overfished?

[jonhaug]

My refs were just Google searchs: http://www.google.no/search?q=cod+liver+oil+norway http://www.google.no/search?q=cod+liver+oil+health +benefits - Jon

Read the Wikipedia article

[gd23ka]

Go and check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamiflu

"It was developed by Gilead Sciences and is currently marketed by Hoffmann-La Roche (Roche) under the trade name Tamiflu. It is generally available by prescription only."

Then you can go back watching the "O'Reilly Factor" or listen to Rush Limbaugh while you color in the pages in your
"War on Terror" crayon book.

The bad news is...

[Anonymous Coward]

...the drug companies have determined there won't be any profit in curing bird flu, so they are going to ignore the discovery and keep working on new, more effective boner and hair-grow pills for the people who survive the bird flu pandemic.

Codpiece a cure for other "viruses"

[Anonymous Coward]

Hypothetical question of no scientific merit: Much like this cod ennzyme, could a codpiece be used to cure or prevent certain viruses being transmitted during "recreational activities"?

It is my belief that wearing a codpiece would just scare away my primary entertainee (I asked and she doesn't like the look of them). The entertainee, nor I, are the subjects of any viral investigation.

I won't regret posting anonymously (even if moded quite a bit) if only because its too silly of a question to leave on my /. handle.

Already patented?

[Anonymous Coward]

I will mount a legal challenge to the patent on grounds of obviousness.

Anyone looking for a bird flu cure would go, "Duh! Icelandic Cod intestinal enzyme, penzim!"

I mean, it's not like he had to think of using the mold on bread or orange peels.

Intefrikkinlectual Property my eye.

3:16

[Anonymous Coward]

For Cod so loved the world, He gave his only begotten enzyme, that whosoever recieveth Him shall not perish...

flapdoodle...

[Anonymous Coward]

A fish curing a bird's flu? Codswallop.

Huh, too bad...

[spankey51]

Too bad There won't be any fish left by the time the virus mutates!

Sounded great until ....

[KidSock]

Bjarnason also believes that penzim might prove a cure for common flu and cold, eczema in children and arthritis

Admittedly I was sold because I would think charlatins would not have access to H5N1. But once it started into the elixir cure-all pitch my bull shit bell went off.

Also it killed young healthy people

[DerangedAlchemist]

The 1918 flu was also noteworthy because people with the healthiest immune systems died fastest. The old, young and immune compromised people did not tend to die from it, unlike the typical flu.

Parent is on crack

[2bitcomputers]

I don't even know where to start so I am just going with a blanket:

WRONG

Cod works in mysterious ways?

[Savage-Rabbit]

It does indeed.... behold ye unbelievers.

Well that's great but...

[Ellidi T]

This company doesn't see a potential cure for an epidemic. It sees green in their own pockets.

In Cod we Trust

Cure all?

[arikol]

Penzim is already used here to treat eczema, sores that wont heal and more (thats just as as a cream, not in its purest form) As for arthritis, fish byproducts have been known to help for a while as well, I have no idea if one of the reasons for that is the penzim, but wouldnt rule it out. And take your cod oil, everybody :)

You are an irresponsible idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

Trying to compare the flu's mutation to a chance of mutating rabies, asteroids is ridiculous. Saying that they are even close in chance is downright stupid and irresonsible. Over time, Influenza has been the number one killer of mankind. The problem is that the flu has the right incubation period (as opposed to Marburg or Ebola which kill so quickly that they ID themselves) of sheding before showing showing symptoms. In addition, it mutates fast, whereas the others mentioned do not. Finally, almost always flu picks up genes from other flu strains when combined in a host. Once a person has a normal flu AND picks up the avian, it is near 100% that it becomes a human spread flu. Problem is that the longer that this exists in birds, the higher the likelyhood that somebody will pick it up.

Want some real action? watch what happens when somebody in AL Qaeda figures all that out. They will simply use themselves for an incubator and create the perfect killing weapon on the west. Then simply send a number of their members to inject self on set day and walk in the airports, zoos, business centers, etc in every major city in the west. By the time that it gets back to their cities, we will have created an inoculation. But not before it has killed literally millions. It would be far easier to catch and stop Ebola than this.

Too bad we will have fished them all out by 2050

[StonyUK]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6108414.stm/

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Too bad there aren't any frigging cod left

[spammacus]

Not that I'm bitter.

Suggested New Title

[Twixter]

Fish Guts Trump Bird Flu. - Film @ 11:00

Not surprising

[Black Art]

Nothing can live in Lutefisk.

From Cod?

[Hoi Polloi]

Cod? I really wish they had isloated this from doughnuts instead.

A Real Time Saver

[airship]

As someone with a cold, zits, and arthritis, all I can say is that this medicine will be a real time saver for me!

Take the short cut...

[natural1]

...and just teach the cod to eat the birds!

COD KILLS BIRDS

[Lotharjade]

"COD KILLS BIRDS!!! News at eleven"

"Ya gotta apply the cod in a baseball bat motion straight to the breast plate," Said the truck driver "and those birds feathers go everywhere."