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Dell's Intel Bias Caused By Under the Table Cash?

swschrad writes "There's a story up on Reuters today saying Dell faces a class-action lawsuit for finagling the books to hide under-table money from Intel. The hidden cash, up to a quarter-billion dollars a quarter, is alleged to have been paid to keep competing CPUs out of Dell PCs. Dell, their accountants at PriceWaterhouse, company founder Michael Dell, and former CEO Kevin Rollins are all avoiding comment on the pending litigation."

256 comments

  1. Only Intel? by Lockejaw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I could have sworn I've seen Dell selling machines with AMD CPUs.

    --
    (IANAL)
    1. Re:Only Intel? by rob1980 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You have. My brother just bought a new Dell with an Athlon 64 in it a couple of weeks ago, in fact.

    2. Re:Only Intel? by BanjoBob · · Score: 1

      Dell just released a statement that they were dropping AMD in favor of Intel again. So, money does buy happiness (for intel).

      --
      Banjo - The more I know about Windoze, the more I love *nix
    3. Re:Only Intel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have evidence for this claim? I can't find it anywhere.

    4. Re:Only Intel? by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      Dell spent years refusing (the then better performing and equally compatible) AMD CPU's for it's various PC's... It is only recently that AMD has gotten a fair chance with Dell. I'm assuming by this article that Intel stopped paying and that's why the finally relented last year and introduced AMD based systems.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    5. Re:Only Intel? by LordNimon · · Score: 1

      That's news to me. Got a source for that information?

      --
      And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
      To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    6. Re:Only Intel? by eriklou · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Before they opened up to AMD, 6+ months ago?, Dell would only sell Intel based systems and Intel only. I think the only reason that they opened up to AMD was the demand (Intel fell behind the tech curve) and that the whole Intel deal was found out.

      Due to their Tech support Script monkeys (I told you I don't have Windows installed five times now...) the over all quality drop (You need a new HD for that Computer you just bought 4 months ago...) and their lackluster cookie cutter builds, (Yay I have to reinstall Windows just to uninstall all this crap that's pre-loaded, wait I don't have a Windows disk...) I have really stopped recommending them to people looking for a new computer. I wish I knew who I could recommend now without the guilty feeling.

    7. Re:Only Intel? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats right he did. It must have been that one he saw.

    8. Re:Only Intel? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I could have sworn I've seen Dell selling machines with AMD CPUs.
      You have. This is historical, not current activity -- and was stopped when AMD started filing complaints under Competition Law in many jurisdictions -- Japan, the EU, etc.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    9. Re:Only Intel? by Chicken04GTO · · Score: 1

      why are people so goddamned myopic?

    10. Re:Only Intel? by matth · · Score: 1

      How about an Apple?

    11. Re:Only Intel? by jason210 · · Score: 2, Funny

      yeah because thats economical and suits everyones computer needs :P

    12. Re:Only Intel? by JungleBoy · · Score: 1

      It's called the PowerEdge 6950, it's a quad dual core AMD (8200 opteron series). There is also an entry level server (SC1435). I think the reason they sell the 6950 is that it runs on standard 110AC. The 4U Quad Xeon (6850) requires 220AC, which I find entertaining. :)

      --
      "You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might be running loose in your pants."
      -Calvin
    13. Re:Only Intel? by MindKata · · Score: 0

      Maybe they can't see the point?

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
    14. Re:Only Intel? by Sylvak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Too bad they waited that long... because in my opinion, amd was superior for a good while when they brought in the 64bit CPUs and dual cores (and before then too). Now that intel has caught up (even surpassed) AMD, Dell now offers AMD.

      It's almost like Intel knew their product wasn't as good as AMD, and they were willing to pay big $$ to Dell in order to prevent the social masses from accepting AMD as the better product. But now, maybe Intel knows they have the better product, so they are not bending over for Dell anymore... someone gets pissed, and the story gets revealed.

      This is too bad for AMD, cause Intel probably made huge $$ when Dell was only offering their product. That money probably got invested in R&D, and facilitated the rise of Intel's next generation product (core duo).

    15. Re:Only Intel? by hdparm · · Score: 1

      That's likely. It could also be the major cause of Dell losing No 1 position in PC market.

    16. Re:Only Intel? by cshark · · Score: 1

      Isn't Dell a private company? I mean, if they prefer to use Intel over AMD, wouldn't a free market dictate that they would be allowed to do so, providing the market is willing to support it? And if Intel wants to pay them for the privilege, why not? If there are accounting irregularities, it's a completely different issue than the chips that are going into your Dell, and should be addressed as such. This article was almost light and fluffy enough to be useless. I would like to know more about the details.

      --

      This signature has Super Cow Powers

    17. Re:Only Intel? by sd.fhasldff · · Score: 1

      Isn't Dell a private company?
      No.
    18. Re:Only Intel? by GuyverDH · · Score: 1

      Actually, in the long run, this is probably good for AMD.

      Reason being? More ammunition for their lawsuit against Intel.

      --
      Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
    19. Re:Only Intel? by HeroreV · · Score: 1

      I haven't really looked into it, but judging just from the articles on /. it would appear that Apple hardware is often problematic, and Apple is just better at covering up and denying problems.

    20. Re:Only Intel? by finiteSet · · Score: 1

      I could have sworn I've seen Dell selling machines with AMD CPUs.

      You have. This is historical, not current activity
      My parents purchased a Dell Dimension E521 on Tuesday with an AMD Athlon(TM) 64 X2 Dual-Core 3800+ processor. (Delivered Thursday!) Seems pretty current to me.
      --
      If we start buying CDs then the terrorists have already won.
    21. Re:Only Intel? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      And if Intel wants to pay them for the privilege, why not?
      Because Intel was using a dominant market position to pay Dell for exclusivity, which is anticompetitive.

      I think you may be confusing free-as-in-liberty with free-as-in-competitive wrt markets. Free markets often need to be protected in order to stay free.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    22. Re:Only Intel? by cshark · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that Dell is owned by the government, and required to present equal time to competing products? That's a weird opinion, don't you think?

      --

      This signature has Super Cow Powers

    23. Re:Only Intel? by cshark · · Score: 1

      If it's illegal, then there's cause for a share holder law suit, which is being filed.

      It hasn't been proven that anything illegal has happened, simply that there is cause to investigate a complaint.

      The current filing is nothing more than an allegation.
      Large companies deal with these things all the time whether or not there is any merit.

      In a world where Microsoft is allowed to flourish unregulated and prosper for it's anti competitive practices, why should Intel be any different?

      I think the distinction is key.
      If Intel is invoking the transaction, it's one thing.
      If Dell is requiring it (assuming it would be the same for AMD), it's quite another.

      It's going to be interesting to watch this and see how it goes down.

      --

      This signature has Super Cow Powers

    24. Re:Only Intel? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      If Dell is requiring it (assuming it would be the same for AMD), it's quite another.
      It doesn't matter who initiated the transaction, what matters is the effect.

      At any rate, a major part of AMD's complaint against Dell is that Dell wasn't requiring the payment; rather, that Intel was making the payment in exchange for exclusivity. The courts of Japan determined that this was, in fact, the situation -- and Dell chose not to contest their ruling.

      The current filing is nothing more than an allegation.

      An allegation in a lawsuit is not a minor thing. For the shareholders to undergo the expense is a big deal.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  2. under the table? by superwiz · · Score: 1

    What is that supposed to mean? They are two companies free to negotiate whatever price they want with each other. It's their business and their right to do so. What the f**k?

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    1. Re:under the table? by MindStalker · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yea but a publicly traded company has to reveal income. If Intel was actually giving them cash instead of just lowering their prices then this income has to be accounted for legally

    2. Re:under the table? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't understand why "under the table" cash is even necessary. Why do that if they can just get a discount? Do public filings even show which company is getting Dell's money? I don't think they are broken down that far.

    3. Re:under the table? by HarbingerKtS · · Score: 1

      Well, aside from the fraud keeping such transactions off the book constitutes for both companies, if both companies are guilty of collusion this could have had much farther reaching effects on CPU prices and pre-built system configurations than you realize.

    4. Re:under the table? by arodland · · Score: 1, Funny

      Come on. They're two companies in the US. It's not like there's any sort of a free market.

    5. Re:under the table? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy: a decision maker can then pocket the cash instead of it going to the profits of the company, and make up some swill about why they should stay loyal to Intel to justify their position.

    6. Re:under the table? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Discounts go to the company (shareholders). Under the table cash goes to the ones who arranged the deal (executives).

    7. Re:under the table? by click2005 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A discount will be shown in finacnial records allowing other companies to see. If HP knows what kind of discount Dell gets, they can try to demand a similar discount.

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    8. Re:under the table? by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1, Interesting

      > If Intel was actually giving them cash

      Rarely do companies give actual cash. Usually this sort of favoritism plays out in a more obfuscated form, on the golf course, along the lines of "Don't tell the guys over at HP or AMD, but we at Intel are planning on pumping a whole buttload of cash into companies A, B, and C. As long as you continue to more favorably market systems with our Intel chips we'll make certain that you're in on the IPO/higher return stock grades/more favorable interest rates on loans to help you short, etc. etc. etc."

      Priveleged information used to maintain social relationships, bias, and control.

      Very similar to the concept of a government security clearance.

      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    9. Re:under the table? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This wouldn't be collusion...since they don't produce competing products.

    10. Re:under the table? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Ahh, nope. I suggest you do some research on anti-monopoly laws, as well as US regulations of publicly traded companies. Companies in a position of market dominance (as Intel was at one time) are not allowed to pay resellers to not use competitor products. The money was likely paid under the table to avoid investigation in re: Intel paying to keep AMD out of Dell products; the other reason for the payments being on the sly was to manipulate stock prices, which is also illegal.

      From AMD's complaint about Intel's unfair business practices, emphasis mine:

      Intel's conduct has unfairly and artificially capped AMD's market share, and constrained it from expanding to reach the minimum efficient levels of scale necessary to compete with Intel as a predominant supplier to major customers. As a result, computer manufacturers continue to buy most of their requirements from Intel, continue to pay monopoly prices, continue to be exposed to Intel's economic coercion, and continue to submit to artificial limits Intel places on their purchases from AMD. With AMD's opportunity to compete thus constrained, the cycle continues, and Intel's monopoly profits continue to flow.

      Consumers ultimately foot this bill, in the form of inflated PC prices and the loss of freedom to purchase computer products that best fit their needs. Society is worse off for lack of innovation that only a truly competitive market can drive. The Japanese Government recognized these competitive harms when on March 8, 2005, its Fair Trade Commission (the "JFTC") recommended that Intel be sanctioned for its exclusionary misconduct directed at AMD. Intel chose not to contest the charges.

      It's pretty likely, IMO, that Intel used these unfair business practices in countries other than Japan.

      Let alone the reporting issues for public companies that other posters have addressed.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    11. Re:under the table? by eriklou · · Score: 1

      It's not that Intel was giving Dell a good deal, it was Intel buying Dell out to block the use of AMD chips.

    12. Re:under the table? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't understand why "under the table" cash is even necessary. Why do that if they can just get a discount? Do public filings even show which company is getting Dell's money? I don't think they are broken down that far.

      Well, while I think such a payment should be used to reduce the cost of the components and as a result widen the profit margin (and hence the taxes paid) Dell may want to account for it differently. They could, for example, be offering copay money to advertise Intel chips; which would be a different accounting treatment.

      In addition, if Intel discounts then they will have to offer the same discount to any other company that they have a "best price" contract in place; so a discount will cost more than just what they give Dell. Therefor, they sell at list and pay cash to lower the price without offering a "discount."

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    13. Re:under the table? by nuzak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, that's naked insider trading. It's more like "we're investing in a new company X, and we could send them your way as their systems vendor, that is, with our cash. So what about that purchasing deal we were talking about before?"

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    14. Re:under the table? by Ucklak · · Score: 1

      Because if Intel gives Dell a lower price, HP will want the same.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    15. Re:under the table? by kimvette · · Score: 1

      They are.

      I'll make an educated guess:

      The monies in question is related to Intel's advertising budget; if you are a system vendor and prominently display the Intel logo in your advertising, Intel will fund a certain percentage of the advertising, based on the prominence of the logo in your advertising. (Microsoft has a similar program).

      Am I right? If so, then the ones suing Dell are complaining about NOTHING. There is absolutely nothing stopping AMD from implementing such policies if they have not already done so.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    16. Re:under the table? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I thought these were called 'co-marketing' dollars and it was all very well known (the Intel doorbell at the end of every Dell commercial).

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    17. Re:under the table? by NewWorldDan · · Score: 1

      Wait, I'm confused. Was Intel bribing Dell, or was Dell extorting Intel?

    18. Re:under the table? by superwiz · · Score: 1

      This is not "insider trading". Publicly traded companies do not have to reveal deals in progress... That would ridiculous. The only way to comply with these kinds of demands would be to have cameras following every business executive of the company and have that broadcast real life. They only have to report on deals after they are completed. Discussing a deal in progress and even making it a part of a larger deal with a 3rd party is not insider trading. It's a legitimate way of doing business.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    19. Re:under the table? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      In terms of the SEC filings, it doesn't matter.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    20. Re:under the table? by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > The only way to comply

      That's the nature of a government which has too many laws. Each law is selectively enforced (abused) only when it serves the convenience of those who write the rules and are in control.

      > It's a legitimate way of doing business

      Only insofar as the people conducting legitimate insider trading are in the good graces of those who hold the authority to order investigation and prosecution.

      That's why Martha Stewart received such a light sentence. She fell out of the good graces of some people but retained the favor of others who kept her from sitting in prison for much longer.

      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    21. Re:under the table? by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      The monies in question is related to Intel's advertising budget; if you are a system vendor and prominently display the Intel logo in your advertising, Intel will fund a certain percentage of the advertising, based on the prominence of the logo in your advertising. (Microsoft has a similar program). Am I right? If so, then the ones suing Dell are complaining about NOTHING. There is absolutely nothing stopping AMD from implementing such policies if they have not already done so.

      Gee Microsoft does it too, well it must be legal then :)

      Seriously, marketing dollars and the like have been channels for illegal kickbacks before. It is usually very discretionary. Say Intel decides it wants to freeze AMD out of most corporate purchasing. So they sell chips at one price to everyone, but give Dell $250,000,000 in marketing dollars for putting an Intel Inside logo on their computers. HP sells both Intel and AMD chips, so Intel gives them 4,000,000. So Dell is making 100 times as much "marketing money" for each PC they put the logo on as HP is. If the courts can show that this was likely contingent on not using AMD chips, that is discriminatory pricing, and Intel is undercharging Dell.

      "So what's the big deal with charging different prices to different customers?" you might ask. Normally, there is nothing wrong with that, however, Intel controls the vast majority of the market which brings with it certain market power and legal responsibility. Intel is under investigation for anti-trust abuse. Discriminatory pricing by monopolies is often a anti-competative act. So whether they claim the money was for marketing and they're just hugely better bargainers than HP, or if they admit to it being a kickback in exchange for taking that action, Intel is opened up to possible criminal convictions.

      Note, the example above was just that. I don't know how much HP was paid by Intel, or that any sort of deal between Intel and Dell was contingent upon freezing out AMD.

    22. Re:under the table? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While avoiding anti-trust laws was probably the motivation, two publicly traded companies are not free to hide deals from the owners of the company (aka shareholders), which is the claim made here.

    23. Re:under the table? by nuzak · · Score: 1

      > Publicly traded companies do not have to reveal deals in progress... That would ridiculous.

      No, but you can't trade stock based on the information of deals in progress if that information is not public. That's why I suggested that the transaction would involve something other than stock. IPO's in particular have a "quiet period" that could sink the whole IPO if that sort of discussion came to light.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    24. Re:under the table? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Discounts go to the company (shareholders). Under the table cash goes to the ones who arranged the deal (executives).

      Which means this was not under the table money because it did go to the shareholders and not the executives. However, the deal is stated as being under the table because it hid a possibly illegal payment from Intel which Dell was perfectly legal to accept into something that Intel paid (legally or illegally) and Dell illegally accepted. However, I do not see who was harmed by it (not the customers, and not the shareholders) except that FTC rules were violated. The apparent cause of this was that Intel wouldn't pay Dell unless Dell helped hide the possibly illegal Intel payment, and Dell broke the law by the hiding, but not by the accepting of the payment.

    25. Re:under the table? by Falladir · · Score: 1

      That would be like the discounts that American railroads offered to large customers in the latter half of the 19th century. I think the supreme court ruled that antitrust laws against this kind of behavior were constitutional.

      If Intel gave a discount to Dell, it would have to give the same discount to newegg and HP and joe-startup.com.

      Is it still illegal to give preferential treatment to companies that deal in great volume?

    26. Re:under the table? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      But that sounds like a good deal for Dell. I mean, if someone from Intel came to my door and said 'here is $500 for not buying or using AMD processors' I would pitch out my wife's crummy Sempron motherboard and use at least part* of the $500 to get her a cheap Pentium-D/mobo combo at Frys.

      How isn't it Intel giving Dell a good deal?

      *the rest of the money I am sure I'd find good uses for.

    27. Re:under the table? by vic-traill · · Score: 1

      Did anyone else first read this title as " Dell's Intel Bios Caused By Under the Table Crash?

      I thought maybe it was a hypervisor problem.

      [/humour]

      --
      [17] Leary, T., White, C., Wood, P. R., Bhabha, W. D., and Wirth, N. Lambda calculus considered harmful. In Proceedings
    28. Re:under the table? by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why "under the table" cash is even necessary. Why do that if they can just get a discount? Do public filings even show which company is getting Dell's money? I don't think they are broken down that far. The cash is to keep Intel from having to answer awkward questions from the FTC. You have to be careful with your anticompetitive practices when you're the largest company in your market.
      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  3. Say it ain't so! by TheJerg · · Score: 5, Funny

    A large technology company trying to make sure the competition stays out of the game by pushing the retailers? Preposterous! Next you'll tell me that Microsoft is trying to rule the world by forcing everyone on the planet to use their products.

    1. Re:Say it ain't so! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe it! Next you'll be telling me that Apple lies in some of its marketing ads!

    2. Re:Say it ain't so! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dogonnit!! Another one of those biased anti-Microsoft, anti-Intel Slashdotters! The place is full of them!

      (sarcasm)

    3. Re:Say it ain't so! by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Next you'll tell me that Microsoft is trying to rule the world by forcing everyone on the planet to use their products.
      Today on my way home from work, some people in a van marked 'Microsoft' forced my truck off the road and pointed a gun at my head. "that_this_is_not_und," they said, "we will shoot you tomorrow if NetBSD is still installed on your home computer by this time tomorrow night."

      No, wait. They didn't.
    4. Re:Say it ain't so! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Always remember, Iraq, Intel, Insider Deals on Chips, Microschoft - it's all a Jew Run World! : ) O Vey! now, pay! Gimme, gimme or I'll sick the press on you!

      --question:
      Is the above statement Anti-semitic or a statement of fact colorized in a humorous way?
      a. AS
      b. FC
      c. Free EZ

      --answer:
      c. and American techies are the last ones to realize it until they are outsourced by a Brown Skinned (B.S.) H-1B smiling at your professional demise and their employment gain. According to Dell and Rollins, they are better and cheaper than you.

      P.S. Never trust a coterie of Jews and LDSs in the same boardroom - Wise White from RR2 or is it RR1?

    5. Re:Say it ain't so! by malsdavis · · Score: 1

      Or that Ipods are capable of lasting for an entire year.

  4. My God... by MidVicious · · Score: 5, Funny

    Under the table money from Intel?

    Wait... is that why the Opinion Center colors are so... I dunno... currency like?

    Reuters gets slashdotted... Slashdot gets Intel'ed!

    I for one welcome our--- AGH! [tackled and beaten to death by slashdotters]

    1. Re:My God... by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I couldn't read your post on my AMD laptop.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  5. Who is filing the suit? Which investors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this is true, I hope Dell pays for it. Since this is a class-action lawsuit, who will be the benefitors of any sort of settlement? Also, is it implying that by "investors," they mean the investors of Dell? If so, you'd think that they'd be near the bottom of the line to bring up anything negative about the company they invest in?

    1. Re:Who is filing the suit? Which investors? by skoaldipper · · Score: 0

      Who's filing the suit? Only two. A bank established for labor unions and a company which handles pension funds. I can connect the italic dots (and this story); Dell's just in the middle of another labor union contract negotiation phase; lawsuits are not an uncommon tactic.

      --
      I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
    2. Re:Who is filing the suit? Which investors? by skoaldipper · · Score: 0

      Also, I believe there are no current contracts with labor unions and Dell currently. Sounds to me like just another attempt by the benefactors of labor unions to pressure Dell into make that concession.

      --
      I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
    3. Re:Who is filing the suit? Which investors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If this is true, I hope Dell pays for it. Since this is a class-action lawsuit, who will be the benefitors of any sort of settlement?

      Lawyers.

  6. Opinion Center by corby · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sounds like a great article for the Intel Opinion Center!

    1. Re:Opinion Center by sjwest · · Score: 1

      huh you must be french right Intel exec trying to deflect a question

      what was funnier was Kevin (ceo of dell) was offering his latest intel powered server on an advert in slashdot - its true and he was smiling. Guity i say

    2. Re:Opinion Center by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      What happened to the AMD special advertising section?
      http://amd.vendors.slashdot.org/

      The link is still live, but the last story posted was Dec 13th 2006

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:Opinion Center by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      On a related note, I'm glad this story made it to the front page. I was worried that while running the Intel ad section they would shy away from stories critical of Intel.

    4. Re:Opinion Center by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hemos is getting cash under the table to hide the AMD page!!!!

  7. So What by TheRecklessWanderer · · Score: 1
    So what?

    Isn't that what lobbying is all about?

    It's called deal making. If Intel offered me cash to use their CPUs only, I would take it.

    It's called a rebate.

    --
    Mean what you say...say what you mean.
    1. Re:So What by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      1) Public company - such payments MUST be accounted for and disclosed.
      2) Did the payments go to Dell or *individuals* within Dell? Those would be kickbacks, which are definitely illegal.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    2. Re:So What by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's called a rebate.

      No, if it was they'd have to submit all of the UPCs and receipts; and then get an email denying the rebate because they forgot to send in the left bottom flap from all of the boxes.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    3. Re:So What by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

      > It's called deal making

      ImClone, Sam Waksell, Martha Stewart, insider trading, what?

      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    4. Re:So What by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      It's called income and they failed to disclose it.

    5. Re:So What by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

      So what?

      So, it just might be illegal. Consider the following scenarios, none of which may be true and all of which are just speculation by me. Again, none of these may be true, but it shows how this kind of thing is more than "no big deal".
      1) If Dell hid this money from the IRS and failed to pay taxes on it, that would certainly be illegal.
      2) If Dell claimed this money under "sales" when in fact it was a gift, that might have caused their stock to be inflated by making their sales look better than they were. That would certainly lead to a class action lawsuit by unhappy shareholders.
      3) Paying someone to keep out another competing product is actually anti-capitalistic you Ayn Rand loving morons! Similar cases have gone before the Federal government in the past and typically they weren't looked upon so favorably. Just because someone pays someone to do something that doesn't mean it's legal. Do you losers really think that if Coke gave millions of dollars in payouts to keep Pepsi out of grocery stores that Pepsi would just shrug it off as "good business by Coke"?

    6. Re:So What by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2) Did the payments go to Dell or *individuals* within Dell? Those would be kickbacks, which are definitely illegal.

      Just like frequent flier miles and the mostly free TV a friend got from Best Buy for all the purchases his business did there. Kickbacks are eveywhere these days and I see little sign the laws against them will be enforced.

    7. Re:So What by geekoid · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Your comment is nothing but a gaping casam of ignorance.
      Do you know how stupid you lok when you say something like that?
      At least I have the good grace to call you 'ignorant'.

      Please never, ever, post anything to do with business or economics again.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:So What by TheRecklessWanderer · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      hahaha why don't you learn how to spell. As for your opinion, it just couldn't matter less. I'll tell you what, lets compare our success in life, and business. If you're doing better than me, I'll concede your point. If not, well, then whatever. Since you obviously have no real point to make, other than insult me, I'll consider the source irrelevent to the discussion at hand.

      --
      Mean what you say...say what you mean.
    9. Re:So What by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May I say in advance, I've been a failure throughout my miserable life (90 venusian years),... first i failed as a son,... then i failed as a daughter,... then, i failed as a houseplant,... i've even failed at making humorous/annoying comments on that geak websight "fleshpot"

      anyway,... because of my unblemished record of failures, i have a strong tendency to revere the rest of my virtual world,... which includes you!

      I have to agree that he did insult you first? Perhaps, if he knew you better he would have asked some question(s) so as to attempt to better understand your comment. I wonder what it was about your comment that triggered him to react in such an insulting manner? I'd say you're certainly a success at getting folks to respond to you,... you've certainly succeeded with me!

      May you and your enemies (both Foes and Freaks) succeed where your ancestors' enemies and your ancestors failed,...
                    though,... hmmm,... i wunda,...

      Here's to an "arrival of calmunity."

      btw...
      this ain't your "parent" speakin' ,...

                you ever feel like we've entered an episode of South Park?

  8. In Soviet Russia... by R2.0 · · Score: 1

    CPU's buy Computer Maker.

    Apparently in Capitalist US as well.

    --
    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
  9. why under the table? by venicebeach · · Score: 2

    The lawsuit accuses Dell of artificially inflating profits "by secretly receiving approximately $250 million a quarter in likely illegal rebate kickbacks payments" from Intel in return for an exclusive deal to purchase Intel's microprocessors, class-action lawyer William Lerach told Reuters.
    I can see why hiding such a transaction is illegal. But why is the deal itself illegal in the first place? Why do they need to hide that? Why can't Dell make a deal with Intel to use only Intel chips in exchange for a good price if they want to?
    1. Re:why under the table? by Namegduf+Live · · Score: 1

      I can see why hiding such a transaction is illegal. But why is the deal itself illegal in the first place? Why do they need to hide that? Why can't Dell make a deal with Intel to use only Intel chips in exchange for a good price if they want to? Because it's anticompetitive to make deals to lock competition out of the market.
    2. Re:why under the table? by painQuin · · Score: 1

      because then Intel comes under fire for monopolistic practices probably... best guess from a programmer, not a lawyer.

      --
      A guilty conscience means at least you've got one.
    3. Re:why under the table? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is intel your choice, Michael Dell?

      Before this was known:

        - Because it's a better CPU/better price/whatever

      Now that this is known:

        - Because we get paid not to use the other CPUs (hush from crowd... mumbling from crowd... "I wonder if that means the other ones are better and Intel just needs to cover it up?")

    4. Re:why under the table? by Geak · · Score: 0

      Antitrust laws maybe? Perhaps Dell - being the largest computer manufacturer in the world is afraid that they may be considered a monopoly and end up in an anti-trust lawsuit with AMD? Basically for the same thing microsoft did when they increased prices for computer manufacturers that offered other operating systems. Is there really any difference between lowering your price for manufacturers that exclusively use your product and increasing it for manufacturers that don't?

    5. Re:why under the table? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As for your last question, you've got to detach from this suit for a second and look at the larger picture, in this instance. Sitting down and negotiating a price for chips is usually the way to go unless, all of a sudden, the chip manufacturer talks to every major computer manufacturer and makes deals with them to only use their product in the majority of their lines. We call this "interfering with competition."

    6. Re:why under the table? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0, Flamebait


      Are you people this f#cking dense. I guess JD Rockefeller and Standard Oil and JP Morgan and the Railroads were in the right all along and Teddy Rosevelt was smoking dope!!

      Go search Robber Barons, monopolies and anti-competitive business practices.

      Christ you morons are f#cking sick. Not a clue about history. Not a clue about competition. I guess selling tainted food isn't bad as long as it makes a company more profitable. I mean really what did Enron really do wrong??

    7. Re:why under the table? by Ian+McBeth · · Score: 0, Insightful

      "Because it's anticompetitive to make deals to lock competition out of the market."

      Erhm.. Dell isn't a market, its a company that competes in one.

      Dell Competes with HP/Compaq, Sony, Toshiba, Lenovo etc.
      Intel making a deal with Dell, hardly stopped the other more that 3/4 of the market from using AMD.

      Now if intel was making these deals with all of Dells competitors, then AMD would have a legit bitch.

      Most likely, Like Microsoft back during the Clinton era, Intel forgot to pay their DNC bribe money.

    8. Re:why under the table? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Most likely, Like Microsoft back during the Clinton era, Intel forgot to pay their DNC bribe money.
      "I'm sorry that we have to have a Washington presence. We thrived during our first 16 years without any of this." --Bill Gates.
    9. Re:why under the table? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Go search Robber Barons, monopolies and anti-competitive business practices.

      I tried, and couldn't find any links to history that wasn't 19th or very early 20th century history.

      Now you're going to try to tell me that the Political Economists back then were entirely right, too, and that we can shuck off all the 'corrupt new practices' that have evolved over the last century-plus.

  10. Difference between "under the table" and price? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure what the difference between a "bribe" and offering lower cost chips are. Dell's going to do whatever it takes to make more money for themselves, I don't see the difference between taking money upfront in terms of lower chip prices or in one bundle in a payoff.

  11. PWC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you think PriceWaterhouseCoopers will be in the same hot water that Arthur Andersen was a few years back?

    1. Re:PWC by Maxwell · · Score: 1
      No. AA had a stunning record of being involved in every major accounting scandal for something like 10 years. Sunbeam? Check. Xerox? Check. Tyco? Check. Worldcom? Check. Enron? Check. And *then* they shredded the Enron documents...


      You know things are bad when former spin offs (what would become Accenture) pay 1.2B to AA to NOT use the Anderson name :)


      JON

  12. Interesting. by dpaluszek · · Score: 1

    This is very interesting since Dell was not putting AMD processors in any workstations or home PC's until recently. When I talked to my Dell Global Team here at my job, they basically said there was no intention of moving to the home market at that time, only in rackmount servers.

    Nevertheless, Dell and Intel are very shady companies. I wouldn't put it past them at all. I even knew about slush funds for evaluation equipment from each of the main computer builders.

  13. An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 5, Funny

    An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer are all interviewing for a CEO job. As part of their respective interviews, the Board of Directors asks them what 2 + 2 is.
    The Lawyer answers that it generally considered to be 4, but there could be precendants in which that answer may vary.
    The Engineer takes out a slide rule, works for a bit, and answers that it is 4.000000000000000000000000000000000000000
    The Accountant looks at the Board and asks, "What would you like it to be?"

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    1. Re:An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Engineer: 2+2=5, but you better use 8.

    2. Re:An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The Engineer takes out a slide rule, works for a bit, and answers that it is 4.000000000000000000000000000000000000000"

      Joking aside, you can't do addition and subtraction on the old slide rule. And you're limited on the number of significant figures that is valid in your results (something that they don't teach much today).

    3. Re:An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And you're limited on the number of significant figures that is valid in your results (something that they don't teach much today).

      No kidding. I do layout for a biomedical journal and I'm shocked by how often I'm given fully peer-reviewed and copy-edited manuscripts that have mismatched significant figures and improper use of units of measure, etc. Then again, I'm one of those technical people who paid a lot of attention in all of my math and physics classes (decided I'd rather go into publishing). But still, it's scary how often I see errors and am reminded of my professors who would always harp on things like "double check to make sure you have the right number of significant figures" and "always make sure you're using the right units of measure."

    4. Re:An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Joking aside, you can't do addition and subtraction on the old slide rule.

      While the log scale (for multiplication) was the main thing used on a slide rule, many had linear scales (mine do).

    5. Re:An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it tends to go like this:

      *complicated and lengthy calculation ending with:
      X=2+2
      X=4

      Say X=8 (so we don't have to deal with marginal materials and crappy construction)

    6. Re:An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer by PhxBlue · · Score: 4, Funny

      And an Intel Pentium processor answers that it's 3.9999890042516.

      --
      !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
    7. Re:An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 1

      ...and then a priest, a rabbi, and a horse walk in and ask, "What is this, some kind of joke?"

  14. Dell and Intel kickbacks by petralynn · · Score: 1

    Guess we now know why there's a new president.

    1. Re:Dell and Intel kickbacks by demonbug · · Score: 1

      What, he wanted in on the under-the-table-money action?

  15. Huh? by bendodge · · Score: 0, Troll

    What's wrong with paying another company to carry only your products? Is it considered anti-competitive?

    But whatever the case, it shows that Intel doesn't trust their product enough to expose it to the free market.

    --
    The government can't save you.
    1. Re:Huh? by nuzak · · Score: 1

      > What's wrong with paying another company to carry only your products? Is it considered anti-competitive?

      Yes, but not all anti-competitive behavior is unlawful. Dell and Intel are big enough, however, that it probably would be.

      Additionally, this was a secret payment which is a very very big no-no. For all we know, it could have been a direct kickback to executives, which is the "go directly to jail" kind of illegal.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    2. Re:Huh? by gallondr00nk · · Score: 2
      "But whatever the case, it shows that Intel doesn't trust their product enough to expose it to the free market."

      *looks at home built Celeron machine*

      *looks at old home built PIII*

      *looks at dual pentium pro server*

      Oh noes! It cannot be! Would these 3 machines spanning 10 years possibly be.... Intel processors bought from the "free market"? They must be Cyrix M2-300s or Motorola 68000s with Intel stickers on them, because Intel would surely never release their sub standard rubbish onto the open market.

      I hate to inform you, but you can buy Intel components in the open market!

    3. Re:Huh? by zzatz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's wrong with paying another company to carry only your products?

      If you have a dominant position in the market, it may violate antitrust law.

      Selling at a low price is fine, always. But if you have a dominant position in the market, there are things that you aren't allowed to do:

      You can't sell below cost, called dumping. The tactic is to bankrupt the competition and raise prices after they're gone.

      You can't bundle products together so as to create a monopoly in a new area by tying to products from an existing monopoly.

      You can't punish customers for buying from a competitor. Reward them for buying from you, yes. Punish them for buying from the other guy, no.

      If you don't have a dominant position in the market, you can do those things. Sell below cost, buy market share, and the competition will have its chance when you run out of money. Sell unpopular products by bundling them with popular products, and watch your popular products become less popular. Require exclusive contracts, and watch customers switch to vendors willing to satisfy customer needs. You can do these things because market forces will correct attempts to manipulate the market. Under normal conditions, the market will reward efforts to compete and punish efforts to inhibit competition.

      But a company can have a commanding position in a market, such that they aren't hurt much by tactics which reduce, inhibit, or eliminate competition. That's where antitrust laws come in. If you can get away with actions that stifle competition, then you are a monopoly in the legal sense, if not the pedantic sense beloved by shills. That's how the court determine if you are a monopoly. If you can raise prices without losing sales, you may be a monopoly. If you can afford to sell below cost until the competitors are out of business, then you may be a monopoly. If you can force unfavorable contract terms on your customers without losing them, you may be a monopoly.

      Rewarding Dell for buying from Intel is one thing, and rewarding Dell for helping drive AMD out of business is another. The distinction between gaining sales for Intel and punishing sales by AMD can be subtle, and that's what the courts will wrestle with.

    4. Re:Huh? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Just because you're a monopolist doesn't mean you're providing sub-standard stock. Look at Standard Oil. Nothing was wrong with its gas, it just used it's market power to kill off all other competition, and then priced their product with monopoly power during those times there were no competitors.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  16. I am not surprised by aschoeff · · Score: 0, Troll

    Intel is a horrible monopolist that needs to be dismantled. Let's hope this is a step in that direction.

    1. Re:I am not surprised by johnnyringo · · Score: 1

      I thought the IBM/Intel/AMD processor wars have been good for users, no? Wihout Intel, wouldn't AMD just be a "horrible monopolist." I think the last decade has shown some really great swings from IBM to Intel to AMD and now back to Intel in terms of pure performance, and even price/performance. The tech that is coming out of the market is pretty sweet. Intel's chips are now faster and cooler- thanks to AMD- and it looks like AMD will continue to bring the market around to more efficent processors. It's seems all good to me...

    2. Re:I am not surprised by aschoeff · · Score: 1

      Intel was a monopolist loooong before AMD was in the picture. We're talking 8086 on up.

      Monopolists almost by definition do underhanded, unethical, and illegal things like these under-the-counter transactions, because without them the market would never have become theirs in the first place. That's why AMD and Transmeta could never be on a level playing field with Intel, they're just not corrupt enough. The myth that this is just healthy competition between like-minded companies needs to be dispelled over and over until everyone understands just what has gone on and is still going on today.

    3. Re:I am not surprised by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Intel was a monopolist loooong before AMD was in the picture. We're talking 8086 on up. Umm, no. AMD were around from the time IBM decided to buy the 8088 from Intel. They were created and given a license to Intel's design specifically because IBM would not buy a CPU without a second source.

      If only they'd had the same foresight with the OS they chose...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:I am not surprised by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      AMD existed even back then. For the rest - see the "Wintel" discussions, which you provided an adequate synopsis for.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    5. Re:I am not surprised by aschoeff · · Score: 1

      I knew they were around, but I was under the possibly mistaken impression that they were not directly competing until around the 486 days. I may be thinking of how it turned out as a situation rather than how it was formally constructed. Thanks for letting me know this, I'll check this out.

    6. Re:I am not surprised by aschoeff · · Score: 1

      Yeah I knew they were around, and I should have stated that, my implication by saying that they "weren't in the picture" was that they weren't in direct competition at that point, which I remembered as starting around the 486 days. Someone else just commented that this was a mistaken assumption, and I stand corrected.

      My question to address this then is, if indeed AMD was a second source for the 8088 way from the beginning, how did the situation evolve such that Intel didn't suffer any competition until relatively recently? Why wasn't AMD doing the same thing back then?

    7. Re:I am not surprised by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      AMD == Germany -> Europe.

      Intel == US, where it just happened to be in the center of the computer revolution.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    8. Re:I am not surprised by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      They did, there was IBM PC DOS, MS DOS, and DRDOS (came later). In addition, there were several other systems that ran on the 8088, including CPM.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    9. Re:I am not surprised by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      It depends on what you mean by competing. AMD had a license to use Intel's designs for x86 chips up to (as I recall) the 80386. With the i486, they could not just fab their own parts from Intel's designs, so they had to create their own 486-clone. AMD 486 chips were not very good, although by the end of the generation they were going up to around 125MHz, while Intel were only shipping 100MHz parts (to encourage people to move to Pentium systems), so some people used AMD chips as a quick upgrade. Their early Pentium competitors weren't great. The K5 was not much better than a 486. The K6 was a bit better, but still weak in floating point. The K6-2 and K6-3 were strong competitors against the Pentium, but didn't quite stand up against the Pentium Pro or Pentium II. The K7 (Opteron), finally gave AMD the performance edge, as well as the price:performance crown. They pretty much held on to it all through the NetBurst debacle, before losing it to the Core 2 (and the Pentium M / Core in some market segments earlier).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    10. Re:I am not surprised by aschoeff · · Score: 1

      right right. Then how did competition between the two during the days =386 play out? Was AMD just a physical supplier more for Europe?

    11. Re:I am not surprised by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Wasn't it the floating point bits that they couldn't directly use from Intel? Intel held close hold on the 8087/80287/80387 IP and it wasn't until the '387 generation that spotty and ill-performing clone chips came on the market to compete with Intel. With the 486 generation (integrated floating point coprocessor) AMD couldn't just sling out licensed exact copies anymore.

    12. Re:I am not surprised by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      AMD was one of the 'second source vendors.' Without a second source vendor, many design outfits won't put your chip in the design. In particular, for critical military stuff there HAS to be a second source.

      Intel licensed AMD to produce parts. They had to.

  17. for that much money? Duh! by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'd put cantaloupes as the processors on my computers for a quarter billion dollars per quarter!

    --
    stuff |
  18. Anti-dumping laws by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

    I suspect that there are some anti-dumping laws here that are being circumvented. It's the only thing I can think of that makes it illegal to lower prices below a certain level (which is what the end-result of that transaction is).

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    1. Re:Anti-dumping laws by udderly · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's called predatory pricing. Mainly it's when a larger company with more marketshare prices their products below profitability in order to bankrupt their competitor.

      It's one of the main reasons that straight free markets don't work.

    2. Re:Anti-dumping laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      What about those that swing both ways?

    3. Re:Anti-dumping laws by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Well, predatory pricing is a ridiculous concept and Supreme Court has made it difficult (or next to impossible) to prove for a good reason. If it's YOUR product in a free country you should be able to sell it for any amount of money YOU deem appropriate. Well, try to sell... whether you actually do sell it at that price depends on whether you'll find a buyer who agrees.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    4. Re:Anti-dumping laws by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      It's called predatory pricing ... It's one of the main reasons that straight free markets don't work.

      That's a pretty sweeping generalization. On paper, predatory pricing may sound like an unstoppable weapon. But in real-world economies, where there's still real money at stake, it's not as if anybody can just decide to use predatory pricing anytime they feel like and get away with it. Pricing your own products below profitability always introduces short-term risk. Usually companies that employ this tactic back it up with a plan to jack the prices back up again, down the road, to make up for profits lost during the price war. If something unforeseen happens -- like the cost of raw materials goes up due to some catastrophe -- the period of predatory pricing can backfire. The longer a company has to raise its prices to offset losses, the more the barrier to entry for competition is lowered, diminishing the advantage given by the earlier, predatory pricing.

      In other words, like most things in real-world economics, pricing is complicated. The reason predatory pricing is illegal in countries like the United States is not because it would bring the entire economy to a grinding halt and end society as we know it. It does, however, tend to have side effects that are unpleasant for more people than the number who would normally benefit from the practice.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    5. Re:Anti-dumping laws by udderly · · Score: 1

      Right.

    6. Re:Anti-dumping laws by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

      Well, predatory pricing is a ridiculous concept and Supreme Court has made it difficult (or next to impossible) to prove for a good reason. If it's YOUR product in a free country you should be able to sell it for any amount of money YOU deem appropriate. Well, try to sell... whether you actually do sell it at that price depends on whether you'll find a buyer who agrees.

      Here's the not ridiculous concept: Say three small companies X, Y, and Z make comparable widgets that cost them about $100 to make and then sell for about $120. It's a healthy market. Now here comes big company W that doesn't sell widgets but they decide to start doing so. It costs them $105 to make the widgets, but they sell them for $50.

      Now, why does company W do this? To be charitable? Hell no! They take a loss selling widgets for $50 until X, Y, and Z go out of business, then jack the price up to $200. That's predatory pricing, it's definitely anti-competitive, and it's definitely anti-consumer. That's bad, m'kay?

    7. Re:Anti-dumping laws by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Well, no, it's not bad. Because as soon as they jack up the price to $200, someone will come to the market and sell this product for $120 again. Anti-competitive behavior cannot be called that unless it is practiced by an established monopolist. While multiple players are competing for a dominant place without a single one of them being clearly dominant, any pricing practice is just excercising of free will... it's called freedom. Government that supresses that... well, supresses free markets and gives a relative advantage ALL other countries. Even the countries with less free markets get an advantage because the said country becomes less competivive in relation to them.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    8. Re:Anti-dumping laws by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Well, no, it's not bad. Because as soon as they jack up the price to $200, someone will come to the market and sell this product for $120 again.

      That's simply false. Why? Because who would enter a market knowing that they'd be out of business in 6 months? Anyone entering would be fully aware that the price will drop to $50 until they go out of business. So, if it takes you $100 to make a widget, why would you enter a market you know the price has been $50 and could be again? You'd be stupid to, and that's one reason monopolies work so well. Not to mention, once there is only one company making the widgets, any parts that are widget-specific will be $10 for them and $80 for everyone else because of the monopoly pressure they will exert. Now, you'll have to spend $250 to make a widget that you'll have to sell for $50. But then, that's the free market.

    9. Re:Anti-dumping laws by istewart · · Score: 1

      The flip-side of that argument: How long can the supposed monopolist keep selling at a loss to sustain control of the widget market? They'd have to have one hell of a huge war-chest to keep it up every time somebody showed up to compete. Eventually, somebody with a war-chest just as big is going to show up and price their product profitably, then wait for the fools selling at a loss to bleed dry. That's why you'd enter the market: if you can stick it out long enough, somebody at your competitor is going to come to their senses and realize that control of the market is not worth the mounting losses.

    10. Re:Anti-dumping laws by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Eventually, somebody with a war-chest just as big is going to show up and price their product profitably, then wait for the fools selling at a loss to bleed dry. That's why you'd enter the market: if you can stick it out long enough, somebody at your competitor is going to come to their senses and realize that control of the market is not worth the mounting losses.

      Yes, and that's why it will be a battle of the billion dollar companies, and the complete exclusion of medium companies. Small companies will be small enough that no one will notice or care, super-mega corporations can compete, middle ones will be snuffed out before they can really challenge the big ones. That's the natural state of a free market. The middle gets the squeeze, whether it's middle class or middle-size companies.

    11. Re:Anti-dumping laws by superwiz · · Score: 1

      Sorry, first of all (even if it's true) the squizeeing of the middle-class does not in any way follow from your argument. You are just taking the word middle and trasfering it from one context to another while borrowing the implications in the old context to make your point in the new one. It does not, however, follow.

      To address your main point, however, so what? The alternative to a market where non-monopolists are free to compete however rough they want is a market that is government regulated. That is the market in which beuracrats rather than interpreneurs make decisions. That creates a less efficient market than any anti-competive behavior by non-monopolists. If you have to choose from two evils, why would you not choose freedom instead of a totalitarian system? Both governments and monopolies are totalitarian systems.

      Further, this market is naturally limited to million dollar companies since the nature of the product is too complicated to be attempted by players with lesser capital. The only question, then, that reamains is fair to punish a company for attempting to increase its customer base with incentives. No doubt, one company increasing its customer base will mean another company loosing its customer base, but that is the nature of competition. This is HOW a free market establishes the most efficient price. It's A GOOD THING (TM).

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    12. Re:Anti-dumping laws by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      To address your main point, however, so what?

      It hurts the customers. It hurts the competition. That's what.

    13. Re:Anti-dumping laws by superwiz · · Score: 1

      I still don't buy the claim that it hurts the customers. I am pretty sure I addressed that point. And you don't have an obligation to be nice to your competition when you are in business. One could argue that the only ethical think in any competing situation is ruthlessness moderated by honesty.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    14. Re:Anti-dumping laws by Specter · · Score: 1

      Your argument relies on the assumption that price is the only discriminating factor. This is clearly false. Two examples: bottled water and Starbucks coffee. (My point being that these are two products that you'd assume couldn't command a price premium and yet still do.)

      In the real world there are supplier contracts, relationships, reputations, switching costs, and personal preferences, just to name a few, which all affect purchasing decisions.

      As other posters have already indicated dumping requires a significant war chest. On top of that proving the other guy's actual "cost" of production is often difficult. When you hear accusations of someone dumping, in my experience you can freely translate that to: "I don't know how to make it that cheaply, therefore they must be cheating!"

      In general, my opinion is that our (US) anti-trust laws are poorly conceived and even more poorly (and unevenly) implemented. While in theory anti-trust is supposed to be about protecting consumers, in reality anti-trust is more often leveraged by companies to protect themselves with little or no real benefit to the consumer.

    15. Re:Anti-dumping laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then I would say that the one arguing that has very low ethic standards. Or a strange sense of honesty.
      Do you think that lowering the price to kill the competition, then jacking it up as much as you can and use that threat to maintain that status quo, is a show of honesty? And do you believe that it is an advantage to the consumers?

    16. Re:Anti-dumping laws by superwiz · · Score: 1

      You assume that the end-effect of any process is absolute. Which is not the case. The show goes on. One company gets a temporary advantage and then another medium-sized player comes in. But by the nature of the fact that they keep fighting an honest (market-efficient) price emerges. I don't think killing competition is honest or dishonest. I certainly think it is the only ethical thing to try to do from the business stand-point. Dishonesty is would be launchin of a false-advertisement and such. The direct sense of the word.... rather than the sense that everyone wants to attach to it when they want to describe someone who is not playing "nice". Those who play "nice" are acting unethical. If both competitors play "nice", they are, in effect, colluding. If one of the competitors plays "nice" in the hopes that the others will, he is counting on some deranged idea of altruism in the hopes to encourage collusion. This is how mafia is ran. Mafia emerges to suppress ruthless behavior by competitors. As long as you don't steal (in the traditional sense of the word -- take something that doesn't already belong to you and that the owner hasn't given to you), don't cheat (again, in the traditional sense of the word -- promise one thing and deliver another), and don't lie, you are being honest. I'll repeat again, the only ethical thing to do during a competition is to ruthlessly do what is self-serving except when doing what is self-serving requires dishonesty.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    17. Re:Anti-dumping laws by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      In the real world, when you are 'hurt' you say 'ouch' and get on with life. And you edge away from whomever is hurting you, or you hurt them back.

      The notion that 'something hurt the customers' is time for Big Government to step in isn't that sound.

      I know this all just transitions into 19th century horror stories that everybody cites about why "monopolies are bad, m'kay" just like 19th century history of the "horrors of patent medicine" are cited any time the overreaching powers of the FDA to make drug and medical device costs 5-50 times what they should due to regulation is challanged.

    18. Re:Anti-dumping laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the not ridiculous concept: Say three small companies X, Y, and Z make comparable widgets that cost them about $100 to make and then sell for about $120. It's a healthy market. Now here comes big company W that doesn't sell widgets but they decide to start doing so. It costs them $105 to make the widgets, but they sell them for $50.

      Now, why does company W do this? To be charitable? Hell no! They take a loss selling widgets for $50 until X, Y, and Z go out of business, then jack the price up to $200. That's predatory pricing, it's definitely anti-competitive, and it's definitely anti-consumer. That's bad, m'kay? So companies X, Y, and Z buy widgets from company W through front companies and sell them for $49. So every time company W loses $55 per widget, companies X, Y, and Z lose only $1 each. Sounds like a good way to bankrupt the predator.
    19. Re:Anti-dumping laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're misusing the term free market. It does not mean free from controls, legislative or otherwise. It means free from factors that distort the interaction of supply and demand.
      Such as the distorting effects of monopoly or collusion!

      The greatest tragedy in capitalism is that the rich successfully perverted the meaning of the term free market into meaning "unregulated" instead of "fair". All of the classics of economics praising the effect of a free market are then held out almost religiously as supporting their position that the best thing is for government to lay off, when in fact they support the opposite!

      In a truly free market, the producers that succeed are the ones that minimize cost while maximizing quality.

      Bribery such as this causes market decisions that are NOT based on the quality and price of the product, but on a secondary benefit to the decision makers, and hence, are NOT a free market at all! The "free" in free market means free of crap like this!

  19. Big deals sometimes have provisions by alexhmit01 · · Score: 5, Informative

    One way in which a monopolist controls the market is with public price matching. For example, if Intel publishes all their pricing, and guarantees that anyone going exclusively Intel will not pay more than say, Dell, then if Intel drops the price to Dell, they have to refund money to other all-Intel shops... perhaps Apple or other players that agreed to go all Intel to get price breaks.

    If Intel gives Dell a 250m rebate, then they are actually charging below the price, and would have to match it elsewhere. However, by hiding the rebate, they can keep charging Dell a book value and collecting the premium elsewhere.

    When big players negotiate big contracts, they often put in protections to not be worse off than the competition. I would expect the deal to be illegal because by not disclosing it, they MAY be in material breach to other companies. Further, Intel has signed consent decrees with the Feds over alleged anti-trust violations, and non-disclosed payments to keep competition out may violate those agreements.

    This isn't a local computer shop contracting with a wholesaler, these are two Fortune 50 companies, sometimes they have arrangements covering them.

    Also, what if a state government agreed to a deal where Dell was the exclusive provider in exchange for cost-plus accounting. Dell would bill on the reported cost, plus profit margin, and then collect the rebate.

    There are a bunch of reasons why this might be illegal because it is potentially defrauding other companies IF their deals are dependent on Intel or Dell's pricing structure.

    1. Re:Big deals sometimes have provisions by qaqa · · Score: 3, Informative

      When big players negotiate big contracts, they often put in protections to not be worse off than the competition. I would expect the deal to be illegal because by not disclosing it, they MAY be in material breach to other companies. Further, Intel has signed consent decrees with the Feds over alleged anti-trust violations, and non-disclosed payments to keep competition out may violate those agreements.
      In my experience as an accountant, I have seen several such contracts too.

      1) Even if Intel had entered into such contracts,Intel would only be guilty of breach of contract and would be liable for damages. It would still not be an illegal act

      2) Even if Intel has violated anti-trust laws, Intel would be liable and not Dell.

      3) Rebates are sometimes given in the form of cash instead of lowering prices because they are dependant upon reaching target volumes which can be determined only at the period end.

      4) GAAP does not require rebates to be separately disclosed. It is perfectly correct accounting to account for such rebates as a reduction from purchase cost. In fact, if they didnt do so, they would be overvaluing their inventory, thus inflating profits!

      From the limited information available from the Reuters article, I fail to see the justification for the class action lawsuit.
    2. Re:Big deals sometimes have provisions by alexhmit01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1) Even if Intel had entered into such contracts,Intel would only be guilty of breach of contract and would be liable for damages. It would still not be an illegal act.
      To clarify, I meant illegal as in violating a legal agreement, subject to legal action, not criminal behavior.

      4) GAAP does not require rebates to be separately disclosed. It is perfectly correct accounting to account for such rebates as a reduction from purchase cost. In fact, if they didnt do so, they would be overvaluing their inventory, thus inflating profits!
      The biggest thing that I could see is if the behavior was dishonest, and either materially mistated the company's financials, or mistated costs for something like a cost-based contract, would be the only justification that I could see for the class action lawsuit. However, it only needs enough justifcation to not be thrown out to have an opportunity to blackmail management into a settlement.
    3. Re:Big deals sometimes have provisions by evilviper · · Score: 1

      2) Even if Intel has violated anti-trust laws, Intel would be liable and not Dell.
      Dell is still responsible for their stock-price manipulation and insider trading scheme.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  20. A question by rewt66 · · Score: 1

    As un-/. as it seems, I actually read the article, and I don't get it.

    OK, this is probably illegal. But defrauding the shareholders by artificially increasing profits? Huh? If a company finds a way to make an extra billion and change each year, don't shareholders usually consider that a good thing?

    1. Re:A question by geoffspear · · Score: 1

      I'm wondering if the people suing sold their Dell stock based on their reported income, and are now upset that Dell has "artificially inflated the stock price" through, umm, having that extra money?

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    2. Re:A question by BeBoxer · · Score: 1

      But defrauding the shareholders by artificially increasing profits?

      You point it out yourself. Artificially. Now that Dell is shipping AMD processors they are probably not getting the rebate from Intel anymore. Their profits are going to take a big hit for reasons which were not disclosed to investors. Had Dell been putting something in their FTC filings saying "$1 billion dollars of revenue are dependent upon exclusive marketing deals with Intel which we may not be able to maintain in the face of increasing customer demand for alternatives" or some such they would have been in the clear. But by hiding it, they set themselves up for trouble.

  21. Intel/AMD (yeah, it's a little off-topic) by writermike · · Score: 1

    I've seen the Vista ads in which Microsoft compares Vista to the fall of the Berlin wall and the man-moon shot (ooookay) and in this end instead of an Intel logo, we get an AMD logo. Kinda interesting. But off-topic...

    --
    If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
  22. Dellintel AMD by demonbug · · Score: 1

    I found it sort of funny that Dell finally started offering computers with AMD chips around the time that Intel finally caught back up to AMD performance-wise. There were a good 2-3 years (at least) when AMD was the clear leader in terms of both price and performance when you couldn't get AMD from Dell. Now that Intel is back on top (at least in terms of performance), Dell has finally gotten around to offering AMD.

    I'm not at all surprised to hear about the lawsuit - it seemed to me that the only reason Dell would be so slow to adopt the clear performance leader is if they were getting some special kickbacks from Intel (though I'd guessed it would just be in the form of really, really good discounts for Dell as opposed to actual cash payments from Intel).

    1. Re:Dellintel AMD by adam.dorsey · · Score: 1

      It's the "momentum" of big business, so to speak. Something as big as Dell can't just turn on a dime. They'll probably start switching back to Intel because of Core 2, and in 3 years when they actually do it, AMD will be back on top.

      --
      You are still innocent until proven guilty. What's changed is what they do to innocent people. - notnAP, #26891325
    2. Re:Dellintel AMD by maxume · · Score: 1

      Dell's whole business is built around being more efficient than their competitors -- supply chain management, anything that decreases overhead. If they aren't maintaining engineering and deployment plans and evaluating new technology for how it fits into those plans, they are crazy. They should be able to turn around new technology inside of a year, if not six months(especially since much of it fits into old stuff on purpose).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  23. Financial records are private by donutello · · Score: 4, Informative

    Financial statements are public and they never include per-unit prices for raw materials and parts. They include a lump sum "Cost of Goods Sold" which includes the total price for all raw materials and parts consumed per business (if it's broken down that way). If Dell is worried that other companies can read their financial records they have more serious problems to worry about.

    --
    Mmmm.. Donuts
    1. Re:Financial records are private by dan828 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Come on, we're talking about HP here. Of course they read Dell's financial records.

  24. Movie In The Works... by Friar_MJK · · Score: 1

    The feature length film starring Burt Reynolds as Kevin Rollins will be out next Friday.

  25. Odd by pr0nbot · · Score: 1

    Seems a bizarre way to bribe them.

    Why not just have an agreement, and then heavily discount the price of CPUs?

    I don't know whether having such an agreement would be illegal, but I doubt selling CPUs cheap is.

    1. Re:Odd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As has been said before, the reason for doing it this way is that doing so with an agreement means they would have to publicly publish this price, and thus Intel's other partners could then demand the same deal.

  26. Revenues v/s Cost of Goods Sold by donutello · · Score: 1

    The article is vague on details but it sounds like they are alleging that Dell recorded the Intel money as part of their revenue instead of discounting it from the COGS as they are supposed to do. I still don't see how it could inflate their profits as the suit alleges.

    --
    Mmmm.. Donuts
    1. Re:Revenues v/s Cost of Goods Sold by Targon · · Score: 1

      If Intel had been paying money under the table, that money could be showing up anywhere in Dell's accounting. As a result, Dell sales could have gone negative for quite a while, but this "under the table" money could have been spent to make it LOOK like Dell sales were higher than they really were, or the money could have shown up anywhere to make the books look better.

      Since Intel could not legally give Dell the money(due to the anti-trust legal issues AMD has brought up) to keep AMD out of the picture, they needed to keep this whole thing quiet.

      What looks better, buying something for half price and selling something at normal prices, or buying something at normal prices and selling for normal prices? It's not an acceptable accounting practice to take in money that SHOULD be under the cost of goods purchased and then apply that money in other places. Dell could have been losing money for a long time in different areas, but was able to cover it up due to the "under the table" deal.

  27. Bribes are not sustainable, see by hirschma · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It is the same thing as if Dell was selling cocaine, and claiming that the proceeds from that were due to their super-fine computer business. People would be investing in them because they had such great metrics in the sustainable, legal business of selling computers. This is apparently not the case.

    It also means that they will likely perform poorly compared to previous quarters. Stock value is about looking forward, not back - the price rises on what people think will happen next. In other words, speculation. Lots of folks will lose money because of these secret, and likely, illegal dealings. Hence the lawsuit.

    Moreover, this behavior may open Dell to substantial unrelated lawsuits - which means that the folks in charge of Dell were neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. Again, a perfectly valid reason for shareholders to sue.

    I hope that Dell is gutted for this.

    1. Re:Bribes are not sustainable, see by qaqa · · Score: 1

      Your entire logic is correct if the deal was actually illegal. But with the limited info TFA had, it appears to be highly unlikely that the deal was actually illegal.

      The crux of the matter is determining if the deal was illegal and even if it was, determining if Dell was guilty of wrong doing.

    2. Re:Bribes are not sustainable, see by hirschma · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, the deal was almost certainly illegal. It is just a matter of who is guilty, and what the actual transgression was. Take your pick:

      * Dell is nailed for cooking the books - it appeared to everyone that they were doing great SELLING COMPUTERS. It isn't just about doing well.

      * Intel and Dell are nailed on uncompetitive practices.

      * Intel is nailed for monopolistic practices, with Dell as an accomplice. Might be the same thing as the previous bullet, IANAL.

      No matter what, someone is going to hang. Publicly traded companies are about transparency, and this was about as opaque as it comes. The point is that they could not have accounted for this properly - and that's a red flag that something stinky was going on.

      I'm sure that HP is just thrilled about this. I think that you'll see more AMD and less Itanium over there right quick.

    3. Re:Bribes are not sustainable, see by init100 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that HP is just thrilled about this.

      I'm sure they are. This might get them out of the spotlight for some time, making people with only short-term memories forget about the HP spying on the board case.

    4. Re:Bribes are not sustainable, see by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      But with the limited info TFA had, it appears to be highly unlikely that the deal was actually illegal.

      It appears that the deal is legal for Dell, but that the filings with the FTC and accounting enteries were illegally done. It also appears that the deal was illegal for Intel, and Dell did the deal as is in order to hide illegal dealings of Intel. Whether that's illegal on the part of Dell, I do not know. Given that they purposefully tried to hide income and lied about where it came from, you'd have to think they had some reason (like that they believed it to be illegal).

    5. Re:Bribes are not sustainable, see by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      I was at Borders last night, and on one of the tables there was a splashy attractive business biography with frickin' Carly's face on the cover. By all appearances it was a favorable book about her time at H-P!?!

      Who would publish such a tome?!?!? Further, who would BUY and READ a book like that?!!??!?

  28. Axis of tech evil by udderly · · Score: 1
    • Microsoft
    • Intel
    • Dell

    Relax, it's just a little joke.

    1. Re:Axis of tech evil by frosty_tsm · · Score: 1

      Does this make Linux, AMD, and Mac the "Allies"?

    2. Re:Axis of tech evil by imikem · · Score: 1

      Rearranging these, we get a nice acronym: DIM

      --
      Perscriptio in manibus tabellariorum est.
    3. Re:Axis of tech evil by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Relax, it's just a little joke.

      Yeah, as in, HA HA ONLY SERIOUS

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Axis of tech evil by init100 · · Score: 1

      Does this make Linux, AMD, and Mac the "Allies"?

      No, it makes them the Coalition of the willing. :)

  29. What's artificial about the profits? by qaqa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    From TFA "The lawsuit accuses Dell of artificially inflating profits "by secretly receiving approximately $250 million a quarter..."

    1) Well, if the USD250 mn received was accounted for (thus "inflating profits") how can it be secret? If the rebate was illegally pocketed by execs, that would be "under the table".

    2) Last time I checked, it was not "illegal" to offer quantity discounts/rebates to large customers. Hell, according to the law firm's logic, buying at CostCo is illegal because they offer quantity based rebates!

    3) All criterea for revenue recognition were fulfilled - the amount was a revenue receipt and was actually received. How can then it amount to "artificial inflation of profits"?

    The law firm is just out to get some free publicity and slashdot's editors are too willing to help.

    1. Re:What's artificial about the profits? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, if the USD250 mn received was accounted for (thus "inflating profits") how can it be secret?
      Because it wasn't tied in to the product it applied to (as reduced COGS, as rebates should be applied). Instead, it was classed as revenue, which then overstates both their gross income and their COGS. While the net is the same, key ratios are thrown off, thus changing the valuation analysts give to the stock.

      Last time I checked, it was not "illegal" to offer quantity discounts/rebates to large customers. Hell, according to the law firm's logic, buying at CostCo is illegal because they offer quantity based rebates!
      That depends on your market position. In Intel's position (they dominated the market at the time) predatory pricing is what those rebates would be considered.

      All criterea for revenue recognition were fulfilled - the amount was a revenue receipt and was actually received. How can then it amount to "artificial inflation of profits"?

      The amount was not a revenue receipt, it was a reduction of costs. This allows them to overstate profits by stating the revenue 100% in the period it was received, instead of subtracting the value from inventory, where it should have been included in any calculations of depreciation, or the writing off of unsold goods, before being included in the COGS. Fundamentally, this means that Dell overstated revenues during the periods the rebates were included on the P&L, but understated them afterwards. This is instrinsic to the claim of stock price manipulation, and inspection of Michael Dell's disclosures show that he sold 32 million shares in 2004 for $1.12 billion. I'd like to see when those rebates occurred, and how they compare to when MD sold those shares.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    2. Re:What's artificial about the profits? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Well, did *you* know about this deal? If not, then yeah, it was secret.

      2) The problem isn't that they had the discount, its that they did the deal secretly so that they did not have to report it. If they had, then Intel's other partners could have demanded the same price and purchase incentives.
      br. 3) It is artificially inflating profits in that an under-the-table rebate is not a direct sales-related intake, it was merely how they filed the extra money away, making it look as advantageous for themselves as they could.

    3. Re:What's artificial about the profits? by qaqa · · Score: 2, Informative

      I certainly agree with your point that if the "kickbacks" were classed as revenue, it would amount to incorrect accounting.This is a very basic and common inventory valuation issue. If inventory was actually valued gross of rebates, the entire accounting team along with the auditors ought to be fired.

      However, there are certainly some practical problems. Problems arise when the rebate is based on full-year purchases and during the early quarters there is no way to know with any certainty whether the rebates will actually be realised. Accountants would then have to use judgement and the "principle of prudence" when accounting for the rebate. In effect, this would lead to rebates being spread unevenly across quarters depending upon the likelihood of receipt of the same.

      I do have one query though. How did you determine that the "kickbacks" were classed as revenue and not as a deduction from COGS? Is there a separate line-item in the financials under the head revenue?

      Just to clarify, I used to words "revenue receipt" to distinguish it from a non-income statement "capital receipt". I did not actually mean that it must be classified as revenue.

    4. Re:What's artificial about the profits? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      How did you determine that the "kickbacks" were classed as revenue and not as a deduction from COGS? Is there a separate line-item in the financials under the head revenue?

      Inference, based upon the wording of the complaint. How else would one hide the reduction of expense in order to manipulate stock price, while still accounting for all the cash in*? Your options are COGS, operating costs, below-the-line rev/exp, or gross income. If they included it in COGS, it wouldn't be a problem (and wouldn't be hidden, as the complaint alleges). Below-the-line would be way too obvious, and would likely not affect stock value enough to be worthwhile. Reduction of operating costs? Again, too obvious. It would be way too easy to spot a variance that large. It's the impact on gross income that would lead to a class-action suit of price manipulation.

      * Of course, I'm assuming that they accounted for all the cash in. If PWC was complicit, this isn't necessarily what happened.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  30. vague definition of "illegal" by yskel · · Score: 1

    The article itself is using "illegal" in the vaguest terms. It may be illegal to have offered and accepted the kickbacks - I think US law allows what amounts to bribes in those industries where they are a common and widespread part of doing business (and as long as the bride taker is not a government entitity or certain healthcare providers). For Dell, it most certainly is illegal to conceal the source of revenues from shareholders, and also from the IRS. From Intel's standpoint, it would be illegal to have offered kickbacks, and then not account for and declare them as such to shareholders and the IRS. Overall, though, it sounds like the article put that line about illegality in just to grab readers attention.

  31. quarter billion? by theodicey · · Score: 1

    What a waste. Intel should steal a page from Exxon's book.

    For the meager sum of $10,000, this computer professional will gladly write a paper about the awesomeness of Intel CPUs.

    1. Re:quarter billion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you really John C. Dvorak?

  32. If this is true.. by zyl0x · · Score: 1

    I wonder which of those guys looks worse; Intel for offering the bribes, or Dell for taking them? This also shines a new light on the Apple+Intel situation. Who knows what happened with them.. maybe the same kind of behavior got Intel into the new Macs??

    --
    Blerg.
    1. Re:If this is true.. by MrRuslan · · Score: 1

      I thing they did it because it is cheaper, Intel CPU's are faster (Core 2), more compatible with the rest of the industry (Run xp on it natively or in a VM without recompilation of instructions) thats my favorite, and more energy efficient,motherboards/chipsets are cheaper list goes on. Makes sense thats all.

  33. dig for that Microsoft marketing cash too by Locutus · · Score: 1

    I'd like to see if this digs up anything along the lines of Microsoft marketing kickbacks and how it tied Windows to the OEM like thumb and index fingers on a child playing with superglue( or white on rice, stink on shit, etc ).

    I've heard that over 20% of Dells profits come directly from marketing Windows. you know, 'we recommend Microsoft Windows XP' on ever page on it's website, the 12 MS windows stickers on keyboards, mice, monitor, case with ever new Dell PC. Oh, and don't forget the 'there are too many Linux distributions so we'll just wait on that' from Dell.

    Then, must maybe people will understand why HP, Dell, etc don't ship Linux. After all, those 'marketing dollars' were not part of the DOJ vs MSFT settlement and pulling any of that back because of interest in Linux would not be breaking the settlement rules. What this means is that it would take a whole new case, a long drawn out case as opposed to the instant sanctions possible from settlement infractions.

    Still, it's too bad Dell had to resort to accepting this instead of promoting competition in the CPU market. I guess it was easier for them to stick with one vendor as long as they kept kicking back $$$ at ever rumor of Dell going with AMD. This might not look good for Dell.

    LoB

    --
    "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
  34. Wait a Minute! by mpapet · · Score: 1

    The lawsuit accuses Dell of artificially inflating profits "by secretly receiving approximately $250 million a quarter in likely illegal rebate kickbacks payments" from Intel in return for an exclusive deal to purchase Intel's microprocessors, class-action lawyer William Lerach told Reuters.

    There's some smoke here and probably a fire below it given how corrupt the decision making process is in a corporation. But it's not really actionable by a money trawling lawyer. The SEC certainly doesn't care. Otherwise they could make Elliot Spitzer's recent accomplishments look like a drop in the bucket.

    The plaintiffs also contend that the company and its executives participated in a "widespread, long-running scheme to defraud" shareholders and inflate Dell's stock price, said Lerach, head of law firm Lerach Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins LLP in San Diego.

    Bingo! This is how the lawyer gets his and the only reason we would ever hear anything about it. I don't see shareholders benefitting in any way shape or form.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:Wait a Minute! by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      But it's not really actionable by a money trawling lawyer. The SEC certainly doesn't care. Would you care to elaborate on that? This suit may well be the first that the SEC has heard of the alleged deception. Furthermore, it is being actioned on. I suppose it follows that plantiff's lawyers aren't money trawling...

      Bingo! This is how the lawyer gets his and the only reason we would ever hear anything about it. I don't see shareholders benefitting in any way shape or form. Well, it is a shareholder lawsuit leveled against alleged corporate malfeasance. The shareholders didn't give up their shares when they chose to be represented by a legal firm - and they will certainly benefit if they win.
    2. Re:Wait a Minute! by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      I don't know of any shareholder lawsuit that ever benefited the shareholders in general. Maybe one or two specifically made out, but usually the stock price falls and everyone loses money. Except the lawyer that started the whole mess.

      This is unlikely to be anything the SEC takes an interest in, or anyone else for that matter. The specifics are almost certainly legal even if the outward appearance is shakey. Dell and Intel are unlikely to risk as much as 20% of their annual revenue on some scheme the lawyers didn't say was just fine. Now, it may not have been something that could proudly shout from the rooftops, which is why it was hidden away.

      I see this turning into a lose-lose situation for everyone, except the lawyer.

  35. Big money by rewt66 · · Score: 1

    A quick look shows Intel's profit as being $5 billion a year, and Dell's as being $3 billion. A payment of $1 billion a year from Intel to Dell is a pretty significant financial event for both companies...

  36. Consider the source by John+Jorsett · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The plaintiffs also contend that the company and its executives participated in a "widespread, long-running scheme to defraud" shareholders and inflate Dell's stock price, said Lerach, head of law firm Lerach Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins LLP in San Diego.

    This is the firm that's made a tidy living sueing the hell out of public companies whose stock drops suddenly. Guess the stock market is doing so well that they've decided to sue for prices going in the upward direction as well. Usually the target settles out of court because winning the legal battle would cost them more. A few years back they sued a company whose stock I own. In that case the company fought them off, but it cost me and the other stockholders (in whose names Lerach was sueing, thank you so much) several million. May Lerach and his ilk rot in hell.

    1. Re:Consider the source by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
      A few years back they sued a company whose stock I own. In that case the company fought them off, but it cost me and the other stockholders (in whose names Lerach was sueing, thank you so much) several million. May Lerach and his ilk rot in hell.

      Can you sue them for including you in a lawsuit you did not wish to participate in, and the losses you suffered because of their reckless behavior?

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    2. Re:Consider the source by John+Jorsett · · Score: 1
      Can you sue them for including you in a lawsuit you did not wish to participate in, and the losses you suffered because of their reckless behavior?

      Unfortunately, no. I've long wanted a "loser pays" provision in US tort law, but the plaintiff's bar always manages to head off such a measure.

  37. Different than a discount? by noidentity · · Score: 1

    How is this different than Intel simply giving Dell a lower price on their CPUs, or a "rebate" of sorts? In the end, the net flow of money is from Dell to Intel. Would it be perfectly fine if Intel sold Dell CPUs at $1 each, in order to make it silly for them to use AMD?

    1. Re:Different than a discount? by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      Because you can inflate both companies revenues.

      Suppose I pay you 1 billion dollars a year and you pay me 1 billion dollars a year. Nothing changes, but both our companies look better because our revenues are 1 billion dollars higher. Looking better means stock price goes up, stock price goes up means the scammers, aka CEOs and board, get to cash out.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    2. Re:Different than a discount? by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      If Intel just sold their processors to Dell for $1 each, then Apple could force the price they pay for processors down; the Intel-Apple contract likely spells out that Apple will pay no more per processor than Dell.

      Even if Intel clears with the feds and shrugs off the shareholders, they'll be in hot water will all their other major customers.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  38. Line Em All Up ... by burdicda · · Score: 0, Troll

    We are all waiting for the same story to break out about

    Quicken, Adobe Photoshop, and Autocad

    What possible reason could these companies have for holding back
    on recompiling versions for Linux ?

    1. Re:Line Em All Up ... by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      What possible reason could these companies have for holding back
      on recompiling versions for Linux ? OT, but I'll bite.

      I guess you've never tried to port a piece of Windows-specific code to Linux or some other open platform.
      It is simply impossible if it is written to the Windows API and the message system. A complete rewrite is easier. Yes, you can pillage the original code, but the UI code is usually much bigger than the part that does the actual processing.
    2. Re:Line Em All Up ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Photoshop is multiplatform and works on Mac too so there must be a certain amount of abstraction inside the code. I don't know about Quicken and Autocad, boring stuff.

    3. Re:Line Em All Up ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bentley's Microstation WAS available for Linux some time ago, but I suppose M$ convinced them otherwise??

  39. Just don't get it. by thousandinone · · Score: 1

    I'm just not seeing exactly where the gain lies in this kind of action.

    Intel pays Dell to carry only Intel's products, rather than AMD's as well.

    In order to make this worthwhile to Dell, the payment has to be significant enough to not only outweigh the potential loss from NOT carrying AMD's project, but to also outweigh the legal risks that have suddenly become quite apparent. We're probably looking at quite a chunk of change here.

    On the other hand, Intel still needs to make a profit, so they have to stand to gain from the deal, meaning that they have to make more money extra than they lose with the bribe, and preferably outweigh those legal risks at the same time.

    These numbers are all arbitrary for the purpose of example. Don't criticize the exact values please.
    Lets say the average Processor goes for 300, and the final product averages 1k, and Dell ships half Intel and half AMD, and is pushing a margin of 1k units, so 1mil cash coming into Dell, 700k after cost for the processors. Lets assume 80% of Dells customers dont care about the processor, 10% will NOT buy AMD, and 10% will NOT buy Intel. In this scenario, Dell loses 100 sales, or 100k out of 1mil, reducing their gross to 900k. Assuming they don't prebuy each processor, That drops them to 630k after processors- a loss of 70k per 1000 units that would have sold previously.

    For Dell to break even with that loss of sales, Intel would have to pay 70k to Dell per 1000 units, or 70 per unit (nearly a quarter of their per processor rate in this model). To break even as far as gross sales go, Intel would have to sell 153 more units. This, however, would still be at a reduced percent profit. In reality, Intel would be selling 400 more units with this model, at roughly 75% of their former profit margin. 243k vs. 150k gross.

    Of course, breaking even wouldn't be enough, given that there needs to be incentive for Dell to do this, and that there are potential legal issues involved. In this scenario, Intels bribe is 70k per 1000 units for Dell to break even, with Intel getting just under 100k extra in gross sales, not factoring in the lost profit margin per unit. Rounding it up to 100k, and giving all that to Dell for the sake of argument: Dell gets an extra 100k above and beyond what they would have gotten otherwise- a 10% increase in profits. Expanded over a larger volume, I'd say that that is just incentive enough to risk the legal issue in and of itself- but consider that by doing this, Intel actually grosses less than in the original model, and at a lower profit margin per each item as well. Obviously, the numbers wouldn't be anywhere near those, but the idea is the same. In this model, how does ANY side benefit?

    1. Re:Just don't get it. by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
      In this model, how does ANY side benefit?

      Dell can gain in other ways. Some possible ones would include:

      1: Being the first to receive new processor releases in quantity. Dell can advertise fastest machines available now.

      2: Receiving full shipments while other manufacturer's are on "allocation". Dell can ship more units when they can't.

      3: Receiving "inside" info of new releases, so they better know when not to stock-up on processors soon to be worth much less.

      4: Receiving processors at a discount, based on a volume that no one else can match, so that Dellcan undercut the competition -- or boost margins -- while others can't break even at those prices.

      There are many ways to play this game to your advantage. But I think Intel lost a lot of leverage when they became enamored with gaining Apple's business, and may have rather neglected Dell.

      Also, some serious legal heat (perhaps from AMD) caused Intel to finally start selling processors at the same price for everyone last September. This is when Dell finally made the major move to AMD, leading one to speculate that they had been receiving a much better deal from Intel up to that point.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    2. Re:Just don't get it. by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      >Obviously, the numbers wouldn't be anywhere near those, but the idea is the same. In this model, how does ANY side benefit?

      You didn't account for trips, dinners and entertainment for Dell execs paid by Intel.

    3. Re:Just don't get it. by thousandinone · · Score: 1

      Which makes it benefit Intel even less, I would presume, even if it benefited the Dell execs more

  40. Re:Keep AMD out of Dells! by bladesjester · · Score: 1

    Also try installing XP or Vista without the CD/DVD that was shipped with you.

    First thing I did when I got my dell laptop was to wipe the hard drive, partition it for dual boot, and install XP Pro (for which I had a license) instead of XP home that the laptop shipped with.

    No problems at all.

    --
    Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
  41. Let's Analyze This by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
    1: The main culprit being given these days by many pundunts for Dell's current woes was their failure to switch to AMD processors earlier to remain competitive. CEO Rollins (now departed) said their customers weren't demanding it. Well I'm a customer, and I was demanding it over a year ago, in an actual letter printed on paper and USPS mailed directly to his office. IMHO Rollins couldn't listen, couldn't read, or both!

    2: Dell is alleged to have received $1 Gigabucks kickback/payoff from Intel last year alone, and not accounted for it properly to its shareholders.

    3: Dell is in deep $hit.

    Analysis: Sticking with Intel so long was a bad move all around, and one that money alone cannot fully make up for.

    Further Analysis: Michael Dell was very smart to have Rollins available to be the fall guy for the past 2.5 years of terrible results, and is now well rid of him just in time for a Dell resurgence that he will take credit for.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Let's Analyze This by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      I am surprised that I had to read this far down the thread (second page!) to find a shrill unrepantant AMD fanboy comment.

  42. In other news by gosand · · Score: 3, Funny

    Michael Dell has handed the CEO reins back to Kevin Rollins.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

  43. I must have gone to the wrong golf course. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was with you up until:
    Very similar to the concept of a government security clearance.

    How do you mean? Speaking as someone who had a security clearance, it doesn't entitle you to free stock tips on the golf course, or really anything else particularly interesting. It's more just a prerequisite for employment; the biggest benefit is that it makes you look like a more attractive employee when certain companies are looking for staff.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:I must have gone to the wrong golf course. by TubeSteak · · Score: 1
      The original quote was:

      Priveleged information used to maintain social relationships, bias, and control.

      Very similar to the concept of a government security clearance.
      Depending on what classified information you have access to, you get to know things before the rest of the marketplace.

      Sometimes seemingly innocuous information can give you a tip as to which way the market is going to move for certain companies...

      IIRC, there was a study done that showed Senators consistently outperformed the avg market gains, with the suggestion that they're doing it because of their better access to information.

      For a market to truly be free, there must be perfect information for everyone.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:I must have gone to the wrong golf course. by HUADPE · · Score: 1

      For a market to truly be free, there must be perfect information for everyone.

      You are confusing the perfect competition model with freedom. In economics, the perfect competition model, among other assumptions perfect information. There are however many economic models, particularly game theoretic ones, in which perfect information is NOT required.

      A small example. Say I market sunscreen, and I find that advertising in surfer magazines is far more effective per dollar than advertising in Cosmopolitan (the cosmo readers apparently want tans and cancer). I have used my own staff to conduct this research and now am able to advertise more effectively. I now have an information advantage over my competitors, who place ads in Cosmo every month. Everyone is acting completely freely in this situation and it is a "free market." It isn't perfectly competitive (no real market is), but it is free.

      --
      This sig has not been evaluated by the FDA. It is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any disease.
    3. Re:I must have gone to the wrong golf course. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spooks use that intercept traffic to conduct business on the side, been going on ..well, forever. In fact, the whole idea of government intelligence agencies came about from private corporation intelligence way way way back in the olden days. Not all "military intelligence" relates to alleged "terrorism". And all the big nations do it, too, for that matter. Every nation has their pet bigboy companies (who also run their own espionage actions) that more or less exist to supply the military/industrial complex. If intel finds out some juicy stuff, the big favored companies find out about it.

      And to get to that point you need a clearance and some decent rank, civil or dot mil. You just need a little more than first rung on the ladder clearance to profit from it.

      Put it this way, by far the largest volume of encrypted traffic on normal public channels is *economic business traffic*.

    4. Re:I must have gone to the wrong golf course. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that doesn't describe perfect information.
      doing your own market research is fine.

      perfect information means everyone can do that same research,
      because they have the same access to information.

      If [surfer magazine] only let your staff look at their demographic information (or whatever you used to come to your conclusion) then that would be an imperfect situation.

  44. Huh by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

    This was public knowledge when I worked there. I wonder why it's taken so long to come to light.

  45. I'm SHOCKED. SHOCKED, I tell you... by EXMSFT · · Score: 1

    Okay, not really. The presence or non-presence of any CPU vendor's technology inside of any device is generally a net factor of the money which must change hands to put it there (think of it more as a rebate and less as a kickback, and perhaps it won't sound so dirty). Likely the same reason why the original Xbox, which originally was going to have an AMD CPU, ended up with an Intel CPU.

    Anyone who thinks that AMD got in and Intel got back in due simply just to processor technology or speed is kidding themselves. It's all about money.

    1. Re:I'm SHOCKED. SHOCKED, I tell you... by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Indeed. This is just like the situation with retail shelf space in big-box stores and chain supermarkets. If Hostess wants shelf space for their Twinkies, they have to pay Kroeger for the privledge. I mean, the soda pop companies take it even further, paying for shelf space, and then even pushing unpopular 'experimental' flavor varieties, just to make sure the shelf space is 'owned' and there's no room for competitors without deep pockets (the small cooler brands).

  46. How is this class action? by sottitron · · Score: 1

    Did AMD and Via come together and get class action status?

  47. Re:Huh? Just pay more than Dell! :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You obviously missed the point, but you may have wanted to on purpose.

  48. Re:What about their Microsoft bias? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That part is coming later.

  49. Lerach is a noted scum-sucking bottom feeder by Thagg · · Score: 0, Troll

    He is noted for his legal extortion. Few of his lawsuits go to trial, but it's often cheaper to pay him off than to fight the suit.

    --
    I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
    1. Re:Lerach is a noted scum-sucking bottom feeder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Er, most lawsuits don't go to trial, because it's often much cheaper to settle than to go to court. The courts are structured so as to encourage parties to settle. That's not legal extortion, it's good business sense for both sides.

  50. I blame the Jews! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course Mel was right! Michael Dell and Andy Grove are both Jewish, right? Nuff said.

  51. Dell was sued, not Intel & Intel's response. by Technician · · Score: 1

    The lawsuit accuses Dell of artificially inflating profits "by secretly receiving approximately $250 million a quarter in likely illegal rebate kickbacks payments" from Intel in return for an exclusive deal to purchase Intel's microprocessors, class-action lawyer William Lerach told Reuters.

    Intel denied the accusations and said that some of the claims appear to "rehash" similar complaints against the chip maker by smaller rival Advanced Micro Devices Inc.. A Dell spokesman would not comment on the lawsuit.


    Gleaned from;

    http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/070202/dell_lawsuit.html?. v=8

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  52. I don't get it. by ear1grey · · Score: 1

    Presumably Intel paid different amounts for different types of CPU endorsement, so given that I have a dual Xeon under the table, should I be looking for my share inside the case or...

  53. I don't get it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is Dell held to a different standard than say... Apple? Apple was all PowerPC. Now they are all Intel. Further, they had been delinquent in their filings too, now they are compliant. The SEC is interviewing Steve Jobs for options backdating. Which has caused more CEOs heads to roll in Silicon Valley than the .com bomb. Isn't the /. community out for a little too much blood here? Give time for the facts of the matter to be settled. Also, I don't see what is entirely wrong with an Intel/Dell partenership to begin with. If it was such a formidable monopoly, and competitors were locked out of the market... then why is AMD where it is at today? Lawyers have their motives and need to be paid too. If they want to go into obscure, arcane minutae to make it.. it's sickening to me. Let businesses be businesses. Also, what about the allegations of HP spying on Dell? I think Dell is the cleanest whistle in tech. JMO.

  54. I Just Wanna Know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are we blaming Bu$h for this?

    God, I hope so.

  55. Dude, where have you been? ! by ciaohound · · Score: 1

    Kerry LOST! We're stuck with W for FOUR MORE years, and TWO of them have gone by already. (Does that make the glass half full or half empty?) Iraq is now a total fiasco, the Taliban are resurgent in Afghanistan, Iran and North Korea are pretty much rubbing our noses in it... geeze, is there any GOOD news? Well, I don't know, W kind of acknowledges global "climate change," but he's still an oil man and always will be. Damn.

    Oh, you meant president of DELL.

    --
    Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
    1. Re:Dude, where have you been? ! by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      The only good news is that now, without all organs of elected government controlled by one part, perhaps we can get back to the business of government being about all those people in the swamp circle-jerking and getting nothing accomplised (nothing is better for freedom than government gridlock.) The all-Republican operation was as bad as all-Democrat operations have been.

      Personally, I'm glad that Kerry lost, though it would be better if it hadn't required Bush being relected for that to be so.

  56. So Intel bribes MS to make bloatware by gelfling · · Score: 1

    That requires ever bigger CPU's and then pays off Dell to purchase the CPU's. Seems like reasonable free market capitalism to me. I can't imagine why the Libertarians here would object to that. They're just competing differently.

    1. Re:So Intel bribes MS to make bloatware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That requires ever bigger CPU's and then pays off Dell to purchase the CPU's. Seems like reasonable free market capitalism to me. I can't imagine why the Libertarians here would object to that. They're just competing differently.

      Sorry, no. It is in Microsoft's interest to produce Bloatware. Few people are willing to shell out $250.00 for "Vista Ultimate" off the shelf, so the only way to ensure adoption is to ensure people get it with their NEXT computer.

      Guarantee you there will be "Vista Only" applications, which will push people into new machines, and hence, pay the Microsoft tax.

  57. Of Course Dell Is In Bed With Intel..... by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 1

    When a major computer manufacturer crams their PC systems with proprietary hardware and software, and only offers Intel processors despite ther obvious drawbacks (high cost, underperformance), it is obvious that they are getting some kind of deal from their processor supplier. Honestly, the majority of Dell products are below par for anything more that minor gaming.

    Being a system builder, I am deeply skeptical of the prodducts that Dell offers. When I needed to build a new system, my father suggested that I give Dell a call, since his company has a contract with them as a supplier and he could get a steep discount. So I gave them a try.

    One afternoon, I called them and told them that I wanted to order a custom system. I told them that I wanted a systems that could be used as a server as well as a high-end gaming rig (I was anticipating using it as a server in the future and wanted to use it initially as a gaming and rendering rig). Right off the bat, the salesperson said that they don't specify what kind/brand of parts they put in your computer. THAT was the first indicator of generic parts. Second, they would not allow me to specify what parts I wanted in my 'custom PC (custom being relative to what THEY wat to put in it, not what I want). The only processor they would install was an Intel (I wanted dual AMD Opteron 242's), generic sound and video cards, generic motherboard, generic 350W psu, and generic HDD.

    Checking out Dell's 'custom' website, I noticed a few things:

    "Dell Roccomends Windows Vista Home Premium" ---Obvious Contract Promotion

    AMD processors are now being offered alongside Intel CPUs, but the graph they provide shows an obvious bias toward Intel, seeing as how the processors are hideously overpriced. Must be because gamers (the people most likely to be picky when ordering a custom system) kept asking for AMD processors, and then left when they were told that they would only get Intel.

    ONE THING TO REMEMBER: When you buy custom computers from anybody, but most definitely DELL:

    YOU ARE GETTING A BUNCH OF PROPRIETARY JUNK THAT WILL BE EXPENSIVE TO UPGRADE.

    --
    Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
    1. Re:Of Course Dell Is In Bed With Intel..... by Locke+DieDrake · · Score: 1

      I get tired of seeing this repeated here on slashdot. So I'm going to use your rant to make a point. I worked for Dell from '99 to '01. Granted, things may have changed there... Dell hardware is generally not "PROPRIETARY" in the normal sense. When I worked for dell, only 1 thing was PROPRIETARY, that was the power supply connections for the 20pin. Thats it. And any reasonably competent twit with a pair of pliers can make it "standard" again in about 5 minutes. HOWEVER- it is common that they use stripped down hardware. Motherboards with onboard video, sound and no AGP or PCI-X slots at all. This is what most people complain about, but calling it proprietary is bullshit. It's not proprietary, it's just crap. Feel free to call it crap, but lets not redefine a perfectly good word like proprietary. As for TFA. When I worked for Dell. I asked Mr Micheal Dell once why we didn't carry AMD. His answer was very simple. They don't pay enough. AMD wasn't offering the kick backs that intel was, and intel would only offer them while DELL sold only INTEL. Shockingly, this has the affect of stopping Dell from offering AMD beacuse it would actually cost them more than any sales could make up. (it would have also caused intel to renegotiate the per unit price dell was paying) And if you are wondering why it's "under the table", thats easy. As part of their contract to supply different OEMs, INTEL is required by most of them to disclose unit pricing. So Intel can't just offer Dell 50% off wholesale prices, because then HP and Gateway would be asking for the same thing. By offering it as a kick back INTEL can hide the true price per unit from other people. Shareholders, cometitors and other OEMS. THAT is the singular reason it's done this way. The odd bit is that all the OEMs with exclusive deals do this, and they all know they all do it. Apperently the only people that didn't know about this was the lawyers. Oh, and it's against anti-trust laws. But I'm not sure I've ever seen those laws enforced, so I'm not sure thats a major motivating factor.

    2. Re:Of Course Dell Is In Bed With Intel..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah so what...what Chinese Engineer do you want to hire today?

  58. Accounting - Fair Value - Space Trip by dunc78 · · Score: 1

    So last week there was a story about a man getting a free trip into space, but having to pay tax on the prize. Some people floated the suggestion to sell the trip for $1.00 or something like that to lower the tax burden, but it was discussed that this wouldn't work because you have to pay taxes on the fair value of the property/prize/service received. This brings up the questions, that if a company like Intel is giving Dell processors below fair value, to try to convince them to only sell Intel based products, should this discount have to be accounted for as income.

    1. Re:Accounting - Fair Value - Space Trip by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      From a tax perspective, it doesn't matter whereabouts you put it on your income statement. It still increases your profits, and you pay more tax on your increased profit.

      Of course, if they didn't put the money on their income statement, there would be problems in that department.

  59. Maybe this is why the CEO of Dell was fired by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    .. and Michael Dell returned. I guess its to avoid liablity with the rest of the company so the former CEO can be sued instead.

  60. None of this is surprising by Dr.+Cody · · Score: 4, Funny

    Bias-free semiconductors never really took off.

    1. Re:None of this is surprising by billcopc · · Score: 1

      I wish I had mod points right now. +1 funny to you, -999 ignorant everyone else :)

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  61. Lies are the problem, not the actions by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    With all the hubbub about backdated stock options, one might think they are illegal. They are not (yet) and never have been. However, they must be properly documented. Sneaking them in so the shareholders don't notice as easily is the fraud that makes them illegal. The same is true for any under-the-table cash. Dell is not, nor has ever been high enough up to worry about antitrust violations. If they took the cash and put it under the proper line on their financial forms, there would be no problem. Intel might have some issues to work out, but Dell would be blameless. However, if they hid it by fraudulent means (reporting it as something it was not) then they are in trouble.

    For some reason, companies like to lie about where cash came from and went, even when it went from legal places to other legal places. Transparency is the most critical thing, and they are sacrificing it for appearances, and ending up in court. If they lied on a financial statement submitted to the FTC, they should be punished. Though I can't imagine what harm came to the customers from this, as Dell is not a monopoly and there were many other competitive choices for the consumers.

  62. Alienware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ummm.... Dell owns Alienware. Alienware DEFINATELY sells AMD processors. Lawsuit = bogus.

  63. So let me get this straight by adsl · · Score: 1

    Intel and DELL discuss the forward CPU buasiness between them. Dells says we ae going to sell approx X + or - 5% PCs nect year. Intel says well we will sell youour CPUs are $y per unit cost, however if we approach X in volume we will repay you $250mm. DELL says well that seems good to us, it's a done deal. Now what has DELL done wrong? They have negotiated the best possible NET unit cost for a supply of CPUs which advanatges them to sell more PCs and which advantages SHareholders who will see a growing and hopefully as profitable busines as possible? Under such circum,stances I see any shareholder suit of DELL as entirely without merit as both DELL's customers and shareholder have benefited.... Now over at Intel I have no idea whether they have broken any other side agreements with other OEMs. I also do not think that there was a person alive in the industry who did not know that DELL was getting superb pricing from Intel.

  64. Whoooosh! by tjwhaynes · · Score: 2, Funny

    Bias-free semiconductors never really took off. That whooshing sound was the noise of this joke whizzing over the heads of the moderators... Clearly, they are without potential.

    Cheers,
    Toby Haynes

    --
    Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
  65. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  66. Trump card for AMD vs Intel anti-trust case? by JPriest · · Score: 1
    I wonder what this new development will do for AMD's claim against Intel that they have been strong arming OEM's into not using AMD products?


    It looks like Dell is not the only company that will need to answer for these actions.

    --
    Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
    1. Re:Trump card for AMD vs Intel anti-trust case? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      Does AMD still make TTL logic gates? It would be sweet for Michael Dell to smile nicely and say 'but how can you act like this? We're using AMD 74HCT245 chips in each and every motherboard!'

      AMD made pretty decent logic gates, back in the day.

      The K5 and K6 sucked. Badly.

  67. Cash or not... by NerveGas · · Score: 1


        I've worked with distributors who simply *will not* carry an AMD processor, because they would lose their special pricing from Intel if they did. Whether Intel is handing out kickbacks or just giving lower prices up front, I don't see much of a difference apart from semantics. Either way, they're using a market pressure to keep AMD out of as many shops as they can.

        Whether that is *bad* or not is an entirely different matter, and one that will never be agreed upon by the various parties.

    --
    Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
  68. Duh. no shit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I quizzed the hell out of some dell reps about why they dont even bother with AMD and what was keeping me away was AMD (really it wasnt, but I was having some fun here :) ) and they spoonfeed me bullshit about how AMD cannot compete with the quality of intel, have hotter unreliable processors, and intel has a name for itself why AMD is largely unproven and a cheap rip-off.

    I almost couldnt stop myself from laughing.

    I asked him what HE thought and he got uncomfortable quick.

    They also seem to favor ATI as well. They put weak, outdated nvidia systems out while the ATI counterpart is the newest and best thing with the best framerates,

    Dell used to be great in the late 90's when they built some of the best pc's out there, my Dell optiplex GX1 at least was one of the best Dell's I have ever used, and that might be an accident, I dont know. All I know is you can upgrade one of those to 1.3 ghz thanks to a bios bug.

  69. Re:Keep AMD out of Dells! by JAB+Creations · · Score: 0

    I have had numerous issues with installing both retail and OEM versions of XP on Dell computers including their own copies from similar models! You simply were lucky not to deal with the aggravation I had to deal with in the past.

  70. why it class action rather than AMD suit? by 2ms · · Score: 1

    Can anyone tell me why Intel is being sued by these investors rather than the most salient victim -- AMD? I don't know anything about this kind of stuff. Does AMD stand to be directly compensated in the case that Intel loses this suit, or is AMD going to merely be screwed less in the future by the cessation of Intel's illegal activity? or what?

    1. Re:why it class action rather than AMD suit? by bbbl67 · · Score: 1

      The investors are suing because they believe that this unreported money served to inflate Dell's profits and revenues for each quarter, thus making their stock more valuable than it should've been.

  71. Don't forget the intangibles by woolio · · Score: 1

    . In this model, how does ANY side benefit

    Well what is "market share"?

    Were you using AMD processors when Intel had 90% of the market? Were you anxious to go out and get a Cyrix CPU? If none of the top 10 computer vendors were selling anything non-intel, would you have gotten one?

    This scenario would have two advantages:

    1) Increased sales
    2) "Comptetitors" wouldn't get much sales, thus it would be more difficult for them to develop a superior product... Paving the way for continued future domination...

    If you think Intel is breaking even on the "bribe" to Dell , it is only that Intel is really ahead.