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Indonesia Stops Sharing Avian Virus Samples
dankrabach writes "Indonesia has apparently decided to play the IP game, with the world's health at stake. The country, one of the hardest-hit by avian flu, has stopped submitting virus samples to the World Health Organization, and is negotiating to sell them to an American drug company that makes the vaccine. They feel slighted when they give away such samples, but then cannot afford the patented vaccines. Logical to me, given the rules of the game; however, can't we come up with some GPL'ish license to free any product based on this data?"
Forbid any American drug company from buying the samples. Problem solved.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Looks like we're going to have to wait for the pirates to bring a few hundred million copies over through the airports, wide-open borders, by sea, or other means. Couldn't they have put some DRM into this?
Seriously can't wait to get my copies!
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
I live near where a recent 'outbreak' of Avian Flu has occurred in England. Forgive me for perhaps not seeing the bigger picture, but what's the big deal? regular flu kills more people every winter in the UK alone than Avian Flu has the world over - ever. AFAIK anyway.
Maybe make pricing inversely proportional to the number of samples provided?
--- Asking inconvenient questions for over 30 years...
There is a shared cost for having this data and not giving it away for free ensures that they will have money to buy the vaccine that came from their efforts to collect the samples.
This is the right thing for 3rd world countries to do. Charge for the services they provide and compete in the marketplace rather than lining up for the soup kitchen.
This makes sense, though dismal that sense be. Holding human lives as so much merchandise, certainly it's nothing new - but that doesn't make is any less reprehensible.
Fight fire with fire, the old adage goes. Though sometimes I wonder why fire can't be fought with water instead.
My Computer Music Tutorial Videos
Instead of "Indonesia has apparently decided to play the IP game, with the world's health at stake.", you could easily say "American Drug company decided to play the IP game, with Indonesia's health at stake."
I'd be pissed too if i was indonesia.
I didn't think I would ever hear that on slashdot. I think that the drug companies should be forced to negotiate with them, maybe giving patent rights to the providers. Who knows have fun lawyers.
Sorry but the pharmaceutical companies should be sending them the drugs for free.
I agree with them, why give some company everything they need to make record breaking profits just so you cant get the benefit from the help you gave them??
I have an idea! why don't all of you write some great stories for Sc-FI channel to make into movies and they can charge you $29.95 to watch them.
Simple solution. Wait until 75% of earth's population dies when H5N1 mutates into human-spreadable form, and then the rich and all powerful shareholders of major corporations (such as pharmas) will have the backs of no peons on which to step.
My work here is dung.
but it would only be beneficial to put a viral license (as it were) on this information if hobbyists and volunteers had the same drug synthesizing and gene sequencing abilities as major pharma/bio companies. However, after a few more generations of Moore's Law, maybe hobbyists and volunteers could do drug synthesis and gene sequencing completely in a virtual environment? Then, a GPL license would make sense.
Caveat: I hate to sound like a G. W. Republican, but such software would also make it easy to design bioweapons. Something to think about.
Step into a huge movement. Don't Tread In Me.
Considering the amounts of money involved, I suspect the only thing that is going to change is that American drug companies will send their own people into the field in Indonesia to collect their own samples.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
What are you, some kind of commie, pinko, free-market hating anti-American scumbags? This is the free market we're talking about, it's power is Divine and it can do no wrong. Sharing things is bad, we should be charging for everything. I mean, if these Avian Virus samples aren't privately owned, we might be facing the dreaded Tragedy of the Commons here! Sharing of scientific data is socialism, plain and simple, and it goes against everything America stands for: profit at the expense of all else.
Seriously, though, I wonder how long it wil be before some misguided Libertarian offers up a serious excuse as to why this is a good thing. I can't wait, it's been a while since I've seen a good contortionist show.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I think you meant to say "America will [...]".
To be honest, I'd find it hilarious if America got devastated by bird flu because of its own greed.
The only way to win is not to play.
...only outlaws will have viruses.
Hey, I actually like the sound of that.
that they have to resort to this, but I can understand their frustration. On the other hand, should a real outbreak ever occur, they are the ones most likely to rely on major international support, and under current forecasts, an outbreak is most likely to occur in the asian arena anyway. i wonder if they would have tried to "sell" the scientific data on the earthquake/tsunami (not that those weren't detectable from far away, but it's a conceptual exercise) that hit them the hardest...or "sell" the geophysical data on the terrain to those who wish to observe from satellites. of course, then their pride should certainly forbid them from accepting any humanitarian help after the tsunami. if they hold this virus data back, sadly, they made the worse for wear if an outbreak does occur.
I can really see why they feel slighted - after all, collection of samples for the WHO is not a process without its costs and hazards. It's not like they're collecting bread mold or something.
Perhaps approaching the WHO looking for some form of compensation for sample collection could be attempted. Perhaps it already has been. But anyone who has dealt with a global scale NGO, especially a UN agency, knows that the bureaucracy involved makes even the most overburdened of national government bureaucracies look like a model of efficiency.
Still, though, I have to wonder about the claims that Indonesia cannot afford to purchase the vaccines. Indonesia is one of the most populous countries in the world, and seems more than able to afford many of the trappings of a modern industrialized nation. Their GDP is close to a trillion dollars US. Is it possible that a certain amount of their stand on this issue is posturing? Or to the benefit of one particular agency or department of their government? Follow the money to its destination and more would begin to be clear.
.... While I understand that viruses can mutate, is there anything special or unique about the strains in Indonesia that makes them (potentially) valuable?
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
And in my personal life I stopped giving blood and am not an organ donor for the same reasons - why should any company profit from my DNA?
At least with the RIAA, if I write a song that 'becomes useful' I'll see a payment, unlike the bio-tech firms.
America != Baxter Healthcare
Saying otherwise is just silly...
How about they develop their own damn vaccines?
...the title and blurb make it seem like Indonesia is doing an evil thing (government + IP + $ + big pharma = EVIL!!!!)
But from TFA:
"A Baxter [the pharma company involved] spokeswoman said the company had not asked Indonesia to stop cooperating with the W.H.O. She added that the agreement under negotiation would not give it exclusive access to Indonesian strains."
So there is no dark conspiracy between Indonesia and Baxter. Indonesia would like some compensation for the samples they provide, which is understandable. The W.H.O will not be left out.
Science never settles, never rests.
"Forbid any American drug company from buying the samples. Problem solved."
I guess this is why geeks aren't called to solve world problems. It isn't an "American" problem, but an economic one. As the other poster pointed out vaccines cost money to develop, and test. A GPL license isn't going to solve that problem. A socialist solution were the entire planet pays for the process might. But then "the world" isn't noted for working together for the common good either.
I'm also sick of paying for their coal, oil, diamonds, and other natural resources and cheap labor. Indonesia should just give to the developed world for free. We have earned our empire and their tribute.
For good or for bad, Indonesia is a big producer of new strains of avian flu in humans. Their government wants to turn that into something they can exploit for profit or a lever to get the resultant vaccines for cheap for their poor country.
It seems odd that we're getting a liberal argument for a poor country to give these samples for free to pharmaceutical companies of the developed world to make a buck. I have no problem with the pharmas trying to make a buck or Indonesia exploiting their new industry of incubating new strains of avain flu for us to harvest.
From the summary:
They feel slighted when they give away such samples, but then cannot afford the patented vaccines.
And the Shah of Iran in 1973, just before the oil crisis:
"Of course [the world price of oil] is going to rise," the Shah told the New York Times in 1973. "Certainly! And how...; You [Western nations] increased the price of wheat you sell us by 300%, and the same for sugar and cement...; You buy our crude oil and sell it back to us, redefined as petrochemicals, at a hundred times the price you've paid to us...; It's only fair that, from now on, you should pay more for oil. Let's say ten times more."
No real point. Just found the similarities interesting.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
When the drug companies stop sticking it to the world, they can gripe about having to pay for samples.
"Free market" and "patent" are mutually exclusive.
But just wait till it starts killing off the PENGUINS and it migrates to dark closeted geeks and no one finds them for months. Sort of like the skeleton found in the Texas Aggie library with a medal around its neck with the moniker..."Hide 'n Seek Champ 1948"
What about damage inflicted by "incarnations" of IP that one claims to own?
CC.
TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
A large (such as a forest) fire will vaporize water before it ever gets near the fire, making water useless. A liquid fire (such as oil or gasoline) will simply float on top of the water, resulting in a larger fire - making water worse than useless. I suggest fighting fire with vacuum, or if that isn't feasable fight it with co2.
Man, you really need that seminar!
Tsunami Relief.
Maybe next time we should charge them *before* sending any help? That's the kind of price for life they want to pay?
I think not!
- Targetted manipulation to sell (lots of) dubious medicine.
- A way to clean up the fowls (is that the right word?) market.
I'm not at all for quick conspiracy theories. But until now, nothing convinced me that avian flu is a real problem.Roman Kennke
"Seriously, though, I wonder how long it wil be before some misguided Libertarian offers up a serious excuse as to why this is a good thing. I can't wait, it's been a while since I've seen a good contortionist show."
Considering that most here haven't read the article, and everything at this point is pretty much talk. There's really no argument to be made for any position. But that's not going to stop the strawman birgade from being modded informative/insightful.
I doubt it. The GPL works because individual programmers receive some sort of personal, non-monetary benefit from contributing to a GPL project -- the reputation, the joy of coding, etc. No similar incentive exists for drug companies to engage in costly research without the proceeds that come from patents. The GPL also works because for-profit players have an incentive to give back their own coding: so that it can be incorporated into the code tree and not require them to reimplement it every time a new version comes out. Again, there is no analogous market force to compel drug companies to give back changes, or even to make the changes in the first place. Finally, the GPL is largely enforceable because it is usually very straightforward to ascertain whether GPL'ed code is in fact being used in violation of the GPL: the software company cannot destroy the evidence or allow it to decay because they need to keep the source code to continue development. I imagine that it is not so easy to determine whether a particular medical advance was inspired by pseudo-GPL'ed samples.
It seems to me that that country's approach is fair and effective. Alternatively they might consider contractually binding recipients of their samples to offer them the resulting patented medication at cost.
Standard capitalism, right back at you.
This seems completely fair.
Big Businesses (not just american) basically rip off ignorant people and take advantage of them to make outsized profits.
We are under a transition where a lot of third world countries are becoming aware of the way they have been abused and want to charge a fair price based on the fact that they must pay for the vaccine, or pay for the "tires" made from their oil, or pay for the computer made from their copper, etc.
Socialists would say some magical government entity would balance this out but the problem is that
1) the government is not going to correctly allocate the multiple billions of dollars to set up the factories that make the vaccines, make the computer chips (what are these like a hundred billion now?), etc.
2) politics are going to warp the processes horribly.
3) bureaucrats are going to slow the process horribly.
Capitalism is harsh but relatively more efficient than socialist/government run production. It has enormous waste and the executive class is currently looting from us but that will probably be fixed in the next 8 to 12 years.
We do need to realize that the cost for every vaccine will go up because of this- but it's fair as long as we are selling vaccines to people providing the samples.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I'd say the libertarians ought to be the first ones to oppose this, since any artificial monopolies such as copyrights and patents are obstacles to a free market.
No. Drug companies don't play games like this. None will sink money into developing a vaccine based on a virus sample if they cannot be granted exclusive rights to produce that vaccine for a period of time. They'll go spend their R&D dollars on fighting developing some other drug that they can use to rake in big stinking piles of cash instead.
That's the way capitalism works - when people decide what to invest in, they rarely look at putting money behind something that they realize is not likely to give them a large return out of the goodness of their hearts. They figure out what's going to make them the most money. The market is not known for rewarding altruism. As a result, any drug company that wants to continue to exist as a drug company is going to do very little in the way of charity research, and instead do the kind of stuff that attracts capital.
The only way we're going to get drug research without patent protection is to start some sort of government agency whose primary purpose is to do this stuff. But good luck getting that to happen (in the US, anyway) voters don't have a history of being in favor of things like this, and the drug industry would viciously lobby against any sort of government-sponsored competitor.
These guys pulled a Hugo Chavez with their citizen's blood. From a libertarian perspective, this is awful, but this libertarian can understand.
Under the current system, Indonesia gives the WHO samples for free, and all they see in response is patented vaccines that their poor country cannot afford. They see a tragedy of the commons where their people's blood is the commons being exploited by the profit making west. Given that the western world is not about to nationalize pharma and provide yummy treats to the world's poor, they are choosing to monetize a natural resource they have. In response they will get funds that they could choose to use wisely, and most importantly rights to produce cheap vaccines for their own people. This should be something liberals should cheer. Libertarians would probably not like it, but it is a rational response to current market conditions by Indonesia.
ANOTHER license. I'm so sick of hearing about licensing.
I know everyone is going to side with Indonesia...in fact, I think they should do what they need to do in order to secure their own access to medicines derived from the samples they give. However, if it were the U.S holding virus samples hostage for its own benefit, people would be calling for blood.
Another perfect example of hypocrisy. People want everything equal until someone or something they don't like gets to exercise the same equality.
If drug companies cannot patent a sell a cure for hundreds a dose (see for example the current controversial HPV vaccine) they will not develop the cure. They are far too busy working on penis pills to work about something that will kill 60% of the world population anyway.
That's the rule, that's what corporations do, that's America! If they don't they very quickly get thrown out by the shareholders and replaced by those that understand this rule. Why are people shocked?
Nobody in their right mind expects Indonesians will be able to afford the vaccine, they will die en mass. This is why we have universities and the WHO, where scientists who haven't crossed over to the dark side develop cures for things.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
Nice try, but what we have in the US (let alone anywhere else in the world today) can hardly be called "free market". FYI, free market economics is founded on the principle of voluntary association, which requires a lack of political power (coercion) and influence over what would otherwise be voluntary trade.
The more government, the less free the market is.
Look around: the US government is now the most expensive, most powerful government that has ever existed in the history of organized coercion. Trying to label it a "free market" is bordering on laughable, and only demonstrates your misunderstanding of the concept of free market economics.
A better term for what we have in the US would be "corporatism" (rather than capitalism, which implies actual free trade).
If Windows or Suse or Ubuntu has an error and causes me a problem, I have no financial recourse.
In America if a drug causes a problem, the lawyers are ready to collect.
Can you imagine a GPLd vaccine that sells for $5 cost of production that causes 1 death per 5,000 doses. This may not get picked up in testing, but it might cause 1000 deaths before it gets recalled. If Merck sold the vaccine for $50, each family would get $1,000,000 and Merck would be out $1Billion. If it was a GPL $5 vaccine.......
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Playing devil's advocate, I think a bird flu pandemic is exactly what this planet needs right now. We've added a billion people and welcomed two billion+ populated nations to the industrialized world and we're destroying most of our natural resources. I think a pandemic that could potentially reduce this burden, especially in SE Asia where those countries seem hell bent on destroying the environment in just about every way. Call me sick, but I don't have faith in humanity to reel itself in when it comes to development and consuming more and more in the future. The only solution is fewer consumers.
Just as I would find it hilarious if your entire family except you were wiped by bird flu because you're an asshole.
Sounds kinda stupid huh? Think before you post.
I'd get pretty tired of that, too. This isn't "playing the IP game, with the world's health at stake". This is fighting back against the IP trolls, who are holding the world's health hostage.
The Indonesians are pissed off with the Australians *not* the Americans. Read this article from The Jakarta Post: http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp? fileid=20070208.A03&irec=2
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
"Damn people's lives, there's a profit to be made!" or "That sure is a nice group of citizens you've got there, it'd be a shame if something happened to them..."
I guess indonesia didn't realize that "we'll give you these samples if we get a good discount on the vaccines" sounds a ton better PR-wise...
Try Sweden, Soviet, Cuba, Norway, France, Belorussia and so on and so forth. There are lots of countries with larger governments.
If you meant that the current government in the US is larger than it has ever been before then you are correct.
The market is not known for rewarding altruism.
Exactly. In fact, it's exactly the opposite: capitalism rewards those who are the most greedy, who are willing to fuck others over for their own gain, and those who are able to manipulate the environment in which things are produced, purchased, and sold.
Just because it appears to be the fairest workable economic system at this time doesn't mean it's good, or even really fair. And it doesn't mean that others can't game the system to their advantage (which is true of every known economic system).
When lives are at stake due to lighted panels flipping you off as hard as they can, an entire city shuts down for a day. When lives are at stake because of evil, greedy fucks who run big corporations, people yawn, and say that's the way it should be.
Call me a cynic, but I really don't like people. We deserve a pandemic. We deserve ecological devastation (drought, famine, pestilence, that sort of thing). As long as our own greed allows us to fuck over other people, we deserve what we get.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
A vaccine is hard to make.
A vaccine is expensive to make.
If there's no profit, there's no incentive.
If there's no funding, there's no resources.
Tragic, but you don't want to do the work - no matter how helpful - if it doesn't put food on your table and a movie on your TV.
Sure you can volunteer a bit, but only if it doesn't harm your personal bottom line.
What are YOU doing to prepare the Avian Flu vaccine? Thought so.
In the long-shot chance you _are_ working on an Avian Flu vaccine, are you doing it for free? Thought so.
Yes, it makes sense for drug companies to charge a fortune for the Avian Flu vaccine - it will cost them a fortune to create it.
Yes, it makes sense for Indonesia to make arrangements to assure they get the vaccine (either thru barter or billing).
Yes, it sounds perverse to sell the disease to buy the cure.
Welcome to the real world.
You don't cure a pandemic for free.
You got a better idea?
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
Because of my initial interpretation of "collect their own samples", I thought it should be "Funny" :-)
What the hell are you talking about? I don't think you or any of your mods even read the article.
Indonesia is selling the samples to an American company under a NON-EXCLUSIVE agreement, and INDONESIA is choosing to not release samples to the WTO, probably because that guarantees their selling price remains high because of scarcity.
Margaret tells the strangest jokes...
A penguin walks into an auto repair shop and says there's something wrong with her car. The mechanic says it will be about an hour to do the diagnostic. The penguin decides to go get an ice cream cone, since it's pretty warm out and she's an Antarctic penguin, not an African penguin.
It's warm out indeed, and the ice cream drips down her chest. She goes back to the mechanic to see what went wrong with her car and what it will cost.
"Looks like you blew a seal," the mechanic says wiping the grease off his hands.
The penguin looks at her chest and says "no, I just spilled some ice cream."
any artificial monopolies such as copyrights and patents are obstacles to a free market.
And ownership of real property isn't an artificial monopoly?
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Indonesia refuses to supply h5n1 samples
mutated strain develops in Indonesia and is not available for vaccine
US with a health care system loses , oh, 10 % of their population
Indonesia, with no health care system loses, oh, 50 %
Those greedy bustards who run Indonesia [Google tommy suharto]
showed those greedy bustards who rule the US [Google, well, Exxon], eh.
This is exactly the scenario for which I'm paying taxes. I'm already gainfully employed, and there are a good chunk of people who are a lot better than me at creating vaccines. Taxes are supposed to be transferred from me (who is offering a service that is in immediate demand) to someone who is offering a service with delayed demand. Instead, what are we paying taxes for? Some dumb ass bridge to nowhere. Statues of politicians who ought to be in prison. Pork that reaches hundreds of billions of dollars in total.
Here's my idea: make every politician pay for pork out of his own pocket. I'm sure that suddenly there'll be a couple of billion dollars left over from my (and yours and everybody elses) taxes to fund some serious research into a bird-flu vaccine. I'm also not opposed to shooting politicians who dole out pork, but some might consider that animal-cruelty.
See, the free-market has known limitations, and we have solutions to the problems that a free-market economy has. The problem is neither the free market (nor your implied accusation that people want to have their cake and eat it too), but the fact that our current political system is unable to deal with any crisis, due to the corruption of its actors (politicians) and the overall greed, lazyness and stupidity of its stakeholders (the voters). I fully expect that if a crisis hits, we'll be run by a dictator in a heartbeat. Sort of like now, except all out and fully accepted by everyone.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Not going to happen. The last pandemic which everyone is comparing this one two only knocked off a few percentage points of the population at best. Twenty percent of the world came down with it which is a large number but not as many as those killed.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
I think the difference here is that the U.S. isn't 'growing' the next generation of virus as a cash crop. Not that Indonesia is doing it purposely, but it IS now charging us for the privilege. The other alternative, should the price be too high, would be to blockade the country.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Won't the drug companies just buy samples directly from the infected people? Surely a sick Indonesian kid has a lower price point than the government of Indonesia. This won't last long.
That's funny in the olden days we called this war profiteering... (watch the movie The Third Man)
I read the headline as "Indonesia Stops Sharing Alien Virus Samples"...
[i]Sorry but the pharmaceutical companies should be sending them the drugs for free.[/i]
[i]can't we come up with some GPL'ish license to free any product based on this data?[/i]
To misquote Henny Penny...
"who will help me identify this virus?"
Indonesia provides the virus samples, sure.
"who will help do the research on the vaccine?"
Indonesia would if it had the expertise. They'd probably do it "in house" if they could.
"who will help me manufacture and distribute the vaccine?"
Does Indonesia have the facilities? I do not know. But if it costs X per unit, simply giving the vaccine 'recipe' back to Indonesia for free doesn't magically enable them to make it.
The pharmaceutical companies can't (as a general rule) afford to simply give vaccine recipes away completely free, as they'd be out the R&D costs. Same way Sourceforge projects die due to lack of funding - the engineers have to eat and pay rent, same as the rest of us.
However, if Indonesia "outsourced" the research, making the vaccine "work for hire" as it were, it COULD do as it wished with it, including free distribution. Assuming they could afford to make and distribute it.
Or the pharma companies could write it all off as promotional/charitable expense. Or the UN could sponsor it.
I'm just sayin', y'know, that there ARE ways around paying ruinous (profitable) prices, but that there ARE expenses involved that you can't simply wave the "I hate IP laws" stick at and make disappear.
"What you miss is that frequently Rules exist to protect the public interest. Society has an interest in there being vaccines for diseases. Society has an interest in companies not dumping toxic waste in the water supply. Society has an interest in maintaining competition in the marketplace. All of these things run counter to the interests of Corporations, but I would argue that the interests of society at large trump those of Corporations."
Unfortunately for your argument, companies would have to be completely isolated from their environment in order for the above to be true to the degree slashdot usually potrays it. Remember the world is interconnecting circles of cause and effect. If Exxon was free to dump like everyone syas they want to, then it would also affect individuals (employees and citizens) both their own and other companies who likewise (according to slashdot) are doing the same thing. Sometimes the best things happen, not because of "rules", but it is in one's own best interest to do so.
Imagine if all poor countries start to bargain their resources and make real money from them! How can Bill Gates continue to look good by providing charity? He'll die and be remembered as the greedy monopolist instead of the nice charitable man! /., there had to be some kind of Microsoft or Bill Gates reference somewhere ;)
Sorry, this is
"Then, since all of the fruits of the academic's labours are in the public domain, private enterprises proceed to do what they are best at, that is fiercely competing at manufacturing, distribution, sales and what not."
A thousand companies aren't going to "fiercely" fight for a dollar's profit. And you still end up charging the taxpaying sick for their medicine.
"Or in the case of Indonesia, a local government-owned manufacturer providing vaccines as required in that society, at a cost locally affordable to be funded by taxation."
That's fine for a socialist/communist country. However we're talking about a country (supposedly) denying the source material to the rest of the world. Not Indonesia not being able to do all the work themselves.
One thing people do not consider is surge capacity.
.001% of the population is sick. If 10% of the population is sick (and doctors and nurses are dying at 20% rates and so some are refusing to come to work and the ones that want to can't get gasoline for their cars) then that 10% is basically going to get 18th century standard health care if not completely ignored.
We live in a society with instant food, instant gasoline, etc.
When an event like a hurricane, blizzard, or flu epidemic comes along, you see the side effects of this VERY thin inventory.
My point is that hospitals can give very good care. But ONLY when
It's like New Orleans and Katrina. 1,500 policemen were fine until everything fell apart. Then they were so over manned as to be worthless.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
+5 Funny.
Something important with national and international importance obviously cannot be left to "the market" and commercial interests. It is long overdue to nationalize all drug companies and let the government(s) decide what research is done and what not (viagra etc.).
Excellent idea.
.
In Russia Avian Virus Sells YOU Sorry, I beg for forgiveness. I'm new here and had to be indoctrinated. Seriously though, how is Indonesia selling a flu strain this any different from patents on drugs found in Amazonian plants or patents on strains of rice? At first pharma just took the plants and patented the chemicals they found, so eventually the locals got enough clout to sell what was already being taken without reimbursment. Why is it an issue for Indonesia to profit form a potential public health disaster when big pharma does so everyday? If public health concerns or medical science superceded the need for profit, then Gardisil would be give away since it benefits the public health to do so.
What's artificial about it? I think you'll find it to be fairly difficult to use your neighbor's shovel at the same time he is! Physical things can't be copied, but if we applied the same rules of supply and demand to copyrights and patents, then their price would be zero, thanks to the practically infinite supply.
Every time someone suggests something like this, it reminds me of how lazy people can be. Instead of thinking up real solutions, you hope that the problem goes away.
Instead of starving mankind, we should be pushing for new solutions. More nuclear power, breeder reactors, renewable power sources, fusion power, genetic engineering to increase crop yields, recycling, CO2 sequestration, asteroid mining, space habitation etc. These are all necessary if we want to survive as a species, and these are all time-consuming, expensive and hard things. But no, some people would rather lie on their couch and hope that a couple of billion people die off so they don't need to do anything.
Sigh.
Real property, not personal property. Real estate. It is maintained by coercive force. Fencing off land anyone could use to support themselves and saying, "This is mine. I know you used to eat these apples, but they're my apples now. If you want apples you are going to have to pay me. You don't have any money? Well, I happen to have a job available, picking apples! If you pick enough apples, I will pay you enough that you can afford to buy back a few of the apples you picked. Sounds fair, right?"
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Instead of the usual situation where virus samples go to Big Pharma, who make patented vaccine, and get rich saving the developed world and wealthy people in the developing world, while Indonesian proles get neither vaccine nor money, we'll have the situation where virus samples go to one part of Big Pharma, who will (hopefully) make vaccine, and get rich saving the developed world and rich people in the developing world, and send royalties back to already rich Indonesians. Again, Indonesian proles will get neither vaccine nor money.
This is just a cynical money grab by the Indonesian elite, and, worse, by restricting who gets access to virus samples they just might be delaying the development of a vaccine that will save millions of lives.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Nope. Not good enough. Medicine, food, and law belong in the public domain. Anything less is a fraud, a farce, a charade to keep the IP gravy train afloat.
What?
Lots of companies profit from organs. The only one left out is the donor -- via their estate of course, for the suffering family.
The organs are "not sold" of course. Selling them would be illegal! No, they just charge really high handling fees. Somehow this is considered legal despite the $0 price cap.
I suppose the proper response from potential donors is this: charge a "handling fee" for the "work" of signing the donor card. Another way would be to have some sort of a futures market against the handling fees; anybody signing up to be a donor gets a share (purchased for $1 perhaps) in the futures related to handling the organs.
Why is it inevitable that bird flu will mutate into a form capable of this sort of transmission? Would it be safe to say that if in the entire kingdom of viruses that if all were inevitably mutating to forms that transmit via air that 'Bird Flu' would be one of the least of our problems?
Does modern genetics have a solid grasp on this process? Is there any indication that Bird Flu's Transmission capabilities are evolving to this end?
You may think i'm coming down on this point rather hard, but terms such as "eventual mutation" in relation to air transmission make me wonder where you, and it seems the larger population, are getting this idea from.
I feel like spending all this money and time and mindshare on the 'Threat of the week' is going to seem foolish in light of any real threat. Which it seems will without a doubt come from the last place humanity expects it.
Not always a win. who would have thunk.
Apples don't usually grow in the wild, so someone had to plant them first. But assuming they grew in the wild, then the 'freedom to roam' would allow people to still pick the apples, at least here in Finland. I actually agree with you, limiting access to renewable natural (i.e. not man-made, planted) resources is an artificial monopoly.
If that happens drug companies will avoid it. They want money, that is all they care about. It make perfect sense that companies pay india for the samples. But the more cheaper route is probably just to set up their own clinics in other countries to get samples. It could written off as charity.
You test properly to start with, and you pay any compensation from the massive profits Merck get from their other drugs.
Who the fuck needs $1m compensation when someone dies anyway? Sounds excessive to me.
As a long-time Jakarta resident I have but one comment to make on this sorry state of affairs - whatever money changes hands, it will only go to enrich certain members of the greedy ruling elite in this corruption-riddled country. The poor will see neither monetary relief nor cheap vaccine.
Why is everyone acting like this is (a) just some 'America meets the third world' issue, and (b) all to do with money and big pharmaceutical companies and how, oh, but they need that money to develop it?
Okay, yes, on the one hand this is Slashdot, most of you are American. But on the other hand, this is Slashdot, most of you are aware of the world beyond your borders, or so it usually seems.
Here's a story a week earlier from the (Australian) ABC on Indonesia criticising an Australian pharmaceutical company for developing a vaccine with "their" IP. The company says that they won't and in fact can't profiteer out of this vaccine, that it's been developed for a fixed sum. This is of course only what the company themselves say about themselves, but in context I'm more likely to take them at their word, given the Indonesian government's position.