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Is "Making Available" Copyright Infringement?

NewYorkCountryLawyer updates us now that the legal issue — is it copyright infringement merely to "make available" a copyrighted work? — has been argued by the attorneys in Elektra v. Barker (on January 26). Whichever way the ruling goes it will have a large impact across the Internet. Appeal seems likely either way. No ruling has issued yet but "a friend" has made the 58-page transcript "available" (PDF here).

320 comments

  1. Slippery Slope by brian.gunderson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Between this, and people being held liable for the actions of their neighbors using their open wi-fi networks, it makes me scared to think what will come next...

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    1. Re:slippery slope by CheeseTroll · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not if you have the properly documented invoice readily available, proving that you paid for the privilege of viewing said copyrighted work. ;-)

      Where it will really get tricky is if consumers begin to copyright our invoice copies, and charge the publisher for the right to view them.

      Heck, I'll just copyright my own face while I'm at it. Stop looking at me!

      --
      A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
    2. Re:slippery slope by Elvis+Parsley · · Score: 1

      Certainly not.



      But you are paid up on your license subscription fee to remember it, aren't you, citizen?

    3. Re:Slippery Slope by Tancred · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah...and I haven't heard a specific definition of "making available" yet. Is an inadvertantly shared Windows folder making its contents available? Is leaving my iPod unattended making available the music on it? Is not patching the latest remote security hole in my system fast enough making available everything on my hard drive?

    4. Re:Slippery Slope by chaoticgeek · · Score: 1

      I leave my CDs out at school in my dorm room and any of my room mates could walk up can take them. Just because they are on my desk does not mean I'm leaving them out for people to copy. Is that making them available. Someone breaking in and stealing my CDs or mp3 player is that making it available?

      --
      hello
    5. Re:Slippery Slope by brian.gunderson · · Score: 1

      ...if your computer gets infected with a SpamBot, are you guilty of 'making available' all the nasty (and possibly illegal) things that your zombie-PC is spewing across the interwebs? Kinda makes you think.

      --
      Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    6. Re:Slippery Slope by CellBlock · · Score: 1

      According to the terms of service of most ISPs, you ARE liable for your neighbors using your network. Your connection is your responsibility, and if someone uses it without your knowledge, then you have been negligent.

    7. Re:slippery slope by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      This of course, leading to 2011's legal dilemma: Is it copyright infringement to "view" a copyrighted work?

      Only if you don't submit to the mandatory memory wipe which will prevent you from telling anyone else about it, or remembering the details of it.

      It also has the benefit that you don't realize you've paid to see Waterworld already 6 times, and that it sucked all of them. Think of the additional revenue stream they will have!! :-P

      "Man, what a crappy movie ... ZAP ... Hey, look, what's this Waterworld thing?" Somewhere in there, is an Eternal Sunshine joke. (But, I bet if they could they would.)

      Cheers
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    8. Re:Slippery Slope by wolfeharte · · Score: 1

      It seems that since they can't find a way to go after these people for theft, they're grasping at straws. Leaving your iPod unattended is a good example of where this could go bad... But why can't we make this go both ways? Are stores going to be held liable for theft by making their wares available and someone shoplifts? What about iTunes? Online stores in general? By making copywrited works available for use digitally, aren't they providing the "pirates" with the stolen goods in the first place? Should, then, we be holding the records company liable for making DRM enabled music available, which in turn creates the need for "stolen" and "pirated" goods in the first place?

      --
      Evolve, damn you!
    9. Re:Slippery Slope by shark72 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Yeah...and I haven't heard a specific definition of "making available" yet. Is an inadvertantly shared Windows folder making its contents available? Is leaving my iPod unattended making available the music on it? Is not patching the latest remote security hole in my system fast enough making available everything on my hard drive?"

      This is slippery sloping, but it's understandable. If I were defending this case, I'd try the same approach. But, to answer your questions: no, no, and no. This case regards making MP3 files available on a P2P network without authorization from the copyright holder. Negligence and intent play a big part here, and I think it will come down to whether it's reasonable that the defendant should have known better when they installed and used their P2P software for its advertised purpose.

      It's often called the slippery slope fallacy because there's often the incorrect inference that A will definitely lead to B. I don't personally think that if the judge rules for the defendant, it automatically means that somebody who misplaces their iPod will be liable... but as I mentioned, if I were defending this case, I'd try to draw that inference.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    10. Re:Slippery Slope by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Yeah...and I haven't heard a specific definition of "making available" yet. Is an inadvertantly shared Windows folder making its contents available? Is leaving my iPod unattended making available the music on it? Is not patching the latest remote security hole in my system fast enough making available everything on my hard drive?

      Sure, whatever works.

      I'm sure I'll butcher this quote, but it goes something like, "Show me a man who's lived 30 years and I'll find a crime for you to hang him by". --- some dead clergy-type guy

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    11. Re:Slippery Slope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think maybe you're trying to describe Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, a common logical fallacy which can be summed up as (from Wikipedia):

      A happened, then B happened, therefore A caused B.

      (It's also the name of a West Wing episode but that's not important here ;)

      -AC

    12. Re:Slippery Slope by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

      I don't think there is anything slippery about it. The people who buy media share it via computers. Computers are connected to other computers. Computers and the lines connecting to the computers are connected to the power grid. The power grid is used by the companies that sell media. The media companies give money to the power company. The money that is given to the power company allows the power company the ability to make power available to the people that own the computers and the lines that connect them. Therefore, the media companies are liable for making media available.

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    13. Re:Slippery Slope by shark72 · · Score: 1

      Not precisely -- lots of folks around here are concerned that if A happens (the judge finds for the plaintiff in the case of the P2P user), then B will happen (it will be illegal to lose your iPod, or libraries will be outlawed, or any number of other silly outcomes). B hasn't happened (and won't happen), so I think slippery slope is more appropriate than PHEPH.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    14. Re:slippery slope by mrbluze · · Score: 1

      This of course, leading to 2011's legal dilemma: Is it copyright infringement to "view" a copyrighted work?


      Which of course, leads to 2021's legal dilemma: Is it an antitrust infringement to "copyright" a work? Since by doing so, the publisher forces some people to break the law, and unfairly competes with those who sell the originals of their work, such as performing musicians, painters, etc?

      --
      Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
    15. Re:Slippery Slope by SillySlashdotName · · Score: 1

      I don't have a definition for you, but here are several analogies (OH NOOOS!)

      If I had a teenage daughter and I kept a bowl of condoms on the coffee table, I would not be distributing them, but I would be making them available. If one of her friends took one home and the police were called (not sure why the police might be called, but just go with it...) I could (theoretically) be charged with 'making available' but not distributing them.

      Given that mindset, then the answer to your questions are Yes.

      If you did not lock down your OS and a shared folder was accessible inadvertently, then you are not making distributing it, but you are making it available - because if you had properly locked your OS down, it would not be available.

      If you leave your iPod unattended, you have made the contents AVAILABLE, even though you did not distribute the contents.

      And if you know that your OS needs patching and you do not do so, then yes, you are making everything on your hard drive available.

      It looks to me like the difference is in intent. If you make available ON PURPOSE, then you may be distributing, but if you have no intent to distribute, then you are only making available.

      On the other hand, if I make available pig crap that no one wants, and I do it on purpose, I may not be distributing, as no one wants what I am offering.

      I think in this specific case and in all cases of file sharing, the people or organization bringing the claim should have to prove that the file is actually a copy of their copyrighted work, not just a screen shot of a listing of files that have names that MIGHT be copies of copyrighted work, and they should have to prove INTENT to contravene copyright. From the transcript, it looks like they are approaching that by claiming if it was in the shared folder, therefore it was intended to be shared, but that does not address someone who puts ALL their ripped songs in one folder - and that folder inadvertently gets shared.

      I find it interesting that there was nothing given showing that ANYTHING was downloaded by the defendant, that there was any evidence that the works were ever downloaded by anyone other than the plaintiff, or that ANY of the files were actually copyrighted work belonging to the plaintiff.

      For what it is worth, IANAL, I don't have a teenage daughter, and I don't have a coffee table.

      --
      Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
    16. Re:Slippery Slope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If "A" is "You have music files on a shared folder of your PC,
      and "B" is "Someone else made a copy of those files".

      I think PHEPH applies since the choice of the infringing party to break copyright is not CAUSED by you having those files available any more than leaving your front door unlocked causes a thief to steal your things. The thief in either case (as the saying goes) must have had larceny in their heart in the first place...

      The weirdness of the argument is that, having left your door unlocked, by RIAA logic, you're just as guilty as the thief who cleaned you out (and since they can't ever CATCH the actual thief, they're just going to prosecute you...)

      -AC

    17. Re:slippery slope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      na na, its illegal to know about it

    18. Re:Slippery Slope by JazzLad · · Score: 1

      I believe you were looking for:
      Give me six lines written by the most honorable of men, and I will find an excuse in them to hang him - Cardinal Richelieu

      --
      "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
    19. Re:Slippery Slope by Tancred · · Score: 1

      Good point about slippery slope arguments often being fallacious. I had in my head, but did not express sufficiently, the idea that it would be difficult to define "making available" in a sensible way. If you get too specific about p2p networks, they might easily evolve into something that isn't covered. If you're too broad, it may cover things you didn't intend. Intent plays a part in our own judgments of hypothetical cases, but it might be difficult to prove in court - certainly more than the minimal evidence collected in the case in question.

    20. Re:Slippery Slope by Venik · · Score: 1

      Let's take this one step further. Say, I install a wireless router and, being a WiFi novice, I went with the default options and did not secure it properly: either left it wide open or running some inadequate encryption scheme. So someone uses my Internet connection to run a P2P app. Maybe even hijack my PC (shouldn't be hard with Solaris 10 and its formidable telnet features :-)

      I guess it will not be easy proving in court, that some mysterious "hackers" were using my wireless connection. I mean, if proving this was easy, everybody would do it and P2P would have RIAA on its knees in no time. Apparently, things are not quite that simple.

    21. Re:slippery slope by yoder · · Score: 1

      You can buy my book, but you damn well better not read it! You can buy my cd, but you damn well better not listen to it! You can buy my movie, but you'd better not watch it!

      --
      "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!" -- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)
    22. Re:Slippery Slope by senatorpjt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hey, if they can say that having more than an ounce of pot is "intent to distribute", then it stands to reason that having more than 10 songs is also, even if they're not shared.

    23. Re:Slippery Slope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you describe is similar to the issues an ISP faces with regard to contributary infringement. ISP, however can register with the copyright office, follow a few basic rules, and have safe harbor from most infringement claims.

    24. Re:Slippery Slope by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Thanks! I've saved the WikiQuote page for future reference.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    25. Re:Slippery Slope by Shatrat · · Score: 1

      I leave my CDs out at school in my dorm room and any of my room mates could walk up can take them. Just because they are on my desk does not mean I'm leaving them out for people to copy. Is that making them available. Someone breaking in and stealing my CDs or mp3 player is that making it available?
      That's theft. The record labels don't care about theft, it just helps them sell more copies of the same albums.
      What does worry them is people not having to buy Cool Hand Luke on a different format every ten years.
      When it comes to the law, nothing is understood.
      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    26. Re:Slippery Slope by Sillygates · · Score: 1

      libraries make books available.

      --
      I fear the Y2038 bug
    27. Re:Slippery Slope by FLEB · · Score: 1

      I don't think we'll ever get into "intent" problems regarding things like accidentally open Windows shares and misplaced iPods, but even taking into account just P2P networks brings up a good point-- there are protocols like BitTorrent, designed in part to have accountability that decentralized networks didn't have (having to have .torrent files hosted from a static location and thus a known vendor), however, nowadays that protocol has become the method-of-choice for illegal video sharing. It'll be difficult to seperate the trade-centric Kazaas from the legitimate-but-co-opted BitTorrents and determine which creators are responsible, even if a common-sense approach is taken.

      It's a shame, because I'd like to see some sort of legislation that would affect the central network operators who flaunt their services as piracy facilitators. They do have responsibility, albeit nothing technical enough to catch on, and going after these bigger fish of piracy would actually yield a result worth the *AA's time in prosecuting, rather than dropping their high-dollar bombs on individual end-pirates.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    28. Re:slippery slope by TheLink · · Score: 1

      No, it's only copyright infringement to remember it ;).

      A penny for your thoughts? The greedy MAFIAA will want more than a penny.

      In the future you may be forced to have DRM in your senses and brains (whether 100% natural or not).

      The current copyright schemes don't scale (with population, better technology), and the direction isn't towards improvement.

      --
    29. Re:Slippery Slope by anagama · · Score: 2, Informative

      In the tradition of slashdot car analogies:

      If you leave your car parked on a hill in neutral without the emergency brake on, and it rolls down the hill and damages another car, are you liable? "Yes" because you negligently maintained your property.

      If you leave a computer unprotected on the internet, and never take steps to protect it, are you acting negligently and thus liable for the damage it causes? I'm not particularly advocating liability, but by the same token, it is hardly a strange concept to hold people responsible for negligently using their property in a manner that damages another's.

      I would note that liability for negligence is different from criminal prosecution (the AZ child-porn case comes to mind), or at least it ought to be in the sense that intent to commit the crime should play a vital role at least in this instance. Of course, bankrupting someone through damages might be just as bad as jail time. Anyway, I wouldn't be shocked if someday someone is held liable for the damage they enabled by negligently maintaining a computer.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    30. Re:Slippery Slope by cibyr · · Score: 3, Funny

      But what if you leave your car unlocked with your malware-0wned but ripped-from-legit-CDs music filled laptop parked outside a public library connected to the free wifi with windows file sharing turned on? What then?

      --
      It's not exactly rocket surgery.
    31. Re:Slippery Slope by slashbob22 · · Score: 1

      I call theft on that too.

      Won't someone please think of the starving authors?

      --
      Proof by very large bribes. QED.
    32. Re:Slippery Slope by anagama · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The way this is answered is to ask whether a reasonable person in similar circumstances would have 1) protected the computer from being "malware-0wned" in the first place, 2) whether that person would have monitored the computer to ensure that if it is p0wned, it is removed from the net, 3) whether a reasonable person would have known the library offered free wifi, 4) whether it is reasonable to allow a computer to access open networks willy nilly.

      Note, whether files were illicitly copied from an shared folder is sort of outside the question I was raising -- specifically, can you be liable for damage to another's property by virtue of computer negligence. Obviously, media content is "property" of the copyright holder yadda yadda yadda. I was thinking more about clogging up the "tubes", DDOS attacks, distribution point for infecting other computers -- stuff like that. As for copyright violation, can you have accidental piracy? I don't really know the copyright law enough to answer that.

      I think if a "computer negligence" case was brought right now, the defense would have a lot of wiggle room because the definition of a "reasonable person" is difficult to pin down. I certainly don't think it would be a slam dunk case for the plaintiff, but by the same token, all media attention relating to exploits and how to protect your self may be raising the bar on what is reasonable behavior with a computer. Ten years from now, it may well be that the average level of awareness has gotten to the point that a person would not be acting like a "reasonable person" if he/she failed to maintain at least an anti-virus and firewall solution.

      I know someone who has a computer that she 100% for certain, positively, definitely knows is p0wned and yet she doesn't disconnect it from the internet. Is that negligent behavior? Is there a foreseeable harm to others in that situation? Maybe. Eventually though, someone is going to get sued. I wonder if a home-owner's policy would cover the costs?

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    33. Re:Slippery Slope by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Thank god ToSes aren't enforceable a lot of the time.

    34. Re:Slippery Slope by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >According to the terms of service of most ISPs, you ARE liable for your neighbors using your network.

      Verus the ISP, yes. Not versus anyone else or by the law. So the ISP can hold you responsible for missues for example and perhaps terminate your service. No one else can hold you responsible for the action of others. Quite a big difference.

    35. Re:Slippery Slope by stupid_is · · Score: 1
      But if the car doesn't even come with an emergency brake as a standard part and you have to go to a 3rd party supplier to obtain one (e.g. AV, Firewall, disabling certain services) - who's liable then? The car manufacturer?

      --
      -- Intelligence is soluble in alcohol
    36. Re:Slippery Slope by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Heck, dive into the seedier side of the Trek universe. Give us a show about the orion syndicate or privateers.

      There's no point in reading further.

      Just say NO to car = copyright analogies.

    37. Re:Slippery Slope by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      Damn. Scrambled the cut and paste.

      Take 2:

      If you leave your car parked on a hill in neutral without the emergency brake on, and it rolls down the hill

      There's no point in reading further.

      Just say NO to car = copyright analogies.

    38. Re:Slippery Slope by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      I think if a "computer negligence" case was brought right now, the defense would have a lot of wiggle room

      Well, consider Julie Amero, a teacher convicted for not stopping porn popups in her classroom. She didn't get much wriggle room.

    39. Re:Slippery Slope by shmlco · · Score: 1

      How about listing 1,000 mp3s as "available" on your home bittorrent server? Why reach for every pie-in=the-sky possibility that ignores the probable intent?

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    40. Re:Slippery Slope by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      If you leave a computer unprotected on the internet, and never take steps to protect it, are you acting negligently and thus liable for the damage it causes?

      I think you could make a very strong argument that this should be the case, within reason.

      The amount of damage done to both individuals and businesses using the 'net by morons who can't be bothered to follow basic security practices is staggering.

      Booting the morons off the net is one possible solution, but given the number of morons involved and the increasing importance of Internet access for daily life, it's a bit draconian.

      However, fining the morons something small but significant if their machine is being repeatedly compromised because they haven't followed basic security procedures would drive home the message that their negligence is harming others. If you want to improve the Internet, pass laws allowing such fines to be made, run a serious public information campaign for three months telling people how to "Get Secure" or something, and then hit a few thousand people with a $50 fine (or whatever your local equivalent is) if they're still ignoring the advice.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    41. Re:Slippery Slope by jwo7777777 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps only if it were illegal to have copies of songs by any means.

    42. Re:Slippery Slope by mrcubehead · · Score: 2, Informative

      The judge says in the notes "To the extent that they [the plaintiffs] allege distribution ... and they're claiming that either distribution includes actual distribution or making available for distribution, the question comes, Well, what does it mean? What does distribution mean?" I think the court will answer that copyright can be violated by making available with the intent to distribute, ie, it's all about the intention, that "making available" isn't enough in and of itself to be counted as distribution.

    43. Re:Slippery Slope by Lockejaw · · Score: 1

      You're talking about a completely different event with your post hoc thing. The GGGP was talking about the suggestion that one event would lead to another in the future, and you are talking about two events in the past.

      --
      (IANAL)
    44. Re:Slippery Slope by Lockejaw · · Score: 1

      I think we should distiguish between "making available" and "offering" something.

      --
      (IANAL)
    45. Re:Slippery Slope by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure that TOS only make you, at most, liable for breech of contract with your service provider, and cannot possibly affect your legal standing with regard to third parties, including the government.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  2. Library? by nairb774 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Did anyone think of a library making copyrighted materials available? (Sure it is likely to be more detailed then that but in the same manner is this where we are going?)

    1. Re:Library? by WetCat · · Score: 1

      Library usually count as an exception, and cannot be a useful example here...

    2. Re:Library? by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Library usually count as an exception, and cannot be a useful example here...

      Well, except that media/publishing companies have been trying to have libraries removed as an exception. It is, in fact, a perfectly useful example -- because if someone gets a law passed which doesn't grant an exemption to libraries, really bad things (tm) will happen.

      The poster was pointing out how exactly a library could run afoul of such things if the corporations had their way.

      Cheers
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:Library? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is nothing magical about a library. They started as private citizens- not as government entities.

      Hell, I could offer up my collection of PDF's as a library if you want.

      This is about a fundamental extension of copyright law that would have prevented libraries if it had been present when they started.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    4. Re:Library? by taskiss · · Score: 0

      A library is not an appropriate example, but I'd bet that radio and tv are.

      While they are licensed to air their material, they also make it available for people to copy.

      --
      - real hackers don't have sigs -
    5. Re:Library? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I don't think that's the kind of making available the article is talking about. A library still only hands you a physical copy that was created by an authorized copier. What's being argued is whether it's illegal to make a file you aren't authorized to copy available for upload to a P2P application. AFAIK anything in a shared folder is considered public so I'd assume this would fall under either a public performance or a broadcast, both of which require authorization by the copyright holder.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    6. Re:Library? by east+coast · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Libraries lend materials, files on the internet are copied.

      Granted, plenty of people copy works from the libraries outside of fair use standards but that's not the intended use by the library.

      This is probably the same reason the Zune "Squirt" (is that the right term for it?) thing is kinda winked on, it's not a permanent copy but rather a lending of materials.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    7. Re:Library? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Roger that! As soon as people figure out that Libraries can and often do carry movies and music, people will start frequenting their libraries more when they are loading up their iPods.

    8. Re:Library? by xappax · · Score: 1

      Libraries lend materials, files on the internet are copied.

      A lot of university libraries now provide "electronic documents", which are either emailed to you or made available via a URL when requested. These are electronic versions of copyrighted printed documents, and they're copied, or at least "made available" in a highly copyable format (like a web page) to anyone.

      Then again, they may have some special arrangement with certain copyright holders, which would explain why everything isn't available digitally, but I'm not sure...

    9. Re:Library? by anthro398 · · Score: 1

      Well, except that media/publishing companies have been trying to have libraries removed as an exception. That's not really true. While it is true that some companies have, at some point, pushed to remove section 108 of the Copyright Act, many others are well aware that copyright is a blunt instrument and needs clarification. The Library of Congress, through the National Digital Information Infrastructure Preservation Program, has convened a study group composed of experts from all sides of the debate to work to clarify the rights and responsibilities of libraries regarding copyright laws. Though the group has not announced a final resolution, all indications are that the publishers and media providers are being quite cooperative and mostly hold libraries in high regard.
    10. Re:Library? by sharp-bang · · Score: 1

      There is nothing magical about a library. They started as private citizens- not as government entities.

      Maybe, but now public libraries are chartered and have a specific mission. You are right that this would have prevented public libraries from ever forming, but now they are here and that fact can be taken into account in legislation. So in that sense, they are 'magical' in that they can be exempted.

      --
      #!
    11. Re:Library? by SillySlashdotName · · Score: 1

      Didn't read the linked transcript, did you? :-)

      There is a whole bunch of discussion with the udge about a case where a library made copyrighted work available and got into trouble.

      There was more to it than just that, but still...

      --
      Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
    12. Re:Library? by macemoneta · · Score: 1

      My county library makes books available for electronic checkout (essentially, a download). When you are done with the e-book, it's checked back into the library. This appears to be legal fair use in terms of copyright. My library also lends CDs and DVDs, however they have not - yet - made those available for electronic checkout due to the bandwidth considerations.

      Perhaps the solution to P2P is a software system that provides the same serial re-use? Of course people can copy them illegally, just as they can with real books, CDs and DVDs. However, having the basic mechanism be in compliance with copyright laws would take the steam out "piracy" prosecution.

      For example, if 5 million people just kept a CD/DVD in a drive and some new P2P software allowed serial re-use of that content by folks on the Internet, would that be in compliance? We could even make the library the clearance house for the content, by making our content (and bandwidth) available through the local library's online system. I can't see how this would be any less legal than a library is today. The only downside is that you'd have to wait for content to be on CD/DVD/E-Book. The upside is much greater availability of much higher quality material.

      --

      Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.

    13. Re:Library? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      I don't think that's the kind of making available the article is talking about. A library still only hands you a physical copy that was created by an authorized copier. But most libraries do make photocopiers available to their patrons. Even if they don't perform the copy themselves, they provide easy means to do so.

      It's really the same thing with P2P. The actual copy only happens when a downloader does indeed store the works on his own hard disk (rather than listening to it immediately, when it is streamed from the source, and not keep a copy).

      What's being argued is whether it's illegal to make a file you aren't authorized to copy available for upload to a P2P application. AFAIK anything in a shared folder is considered public so I'd assume this would fall under either a public performance or a broadcast, both of which require authorization by the copyright holder. The thing here is that also the "uploader" made the files available, it's not he who decides whether an actual copy happens or not. He only set up his folder such that a third party might initiate a copy, if it so wishes. He doesn't perform the copy himself. It's not even a broadcast, as no data is transferred if nobody is interested in the works.
    14. Re:Library? by Mex · · Score: 1

      So if I download something and then send it back to whoever let me download it and I delete it from my machine, would that be lending and would it be legal?

    15. Re:Library? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still a copy. "Copy" is the word that is going to be hard to overcome. If you want to play devil's advocate be prepared for when they play word lawyer. In this case they would be more correct than you. If you decide to risk it let us know how it turns out, we all need a good chuckle from time to time.

    16. Re:Library? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      It's a lot like religion.

      If your old religion for say, drug use, got under the wire- it's legal.

      If you try to found ANY new religion that says you must use drugs- it's doomed.

      So you really do have religious discrimination. We just pretend we don't. Really a lot of religions are implicitly judged by parameters established by the dominant religion in an area. If a new religion deviates too much, it's suppressed.

      Same for libraries. Any thing like a library "but on the internet" is being killed at birth by these legal restrictions that they don't apply to established libraries.

      As a side note: My friend no longer buys any DVD's since she checks all of them out from her library for free.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    17. Re:Library? by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Libraries lend materials, files on the internet are copied.

      The distinction is significantly less relevant than you seem to think. Accessing a file on a computer makes at least one copy into RAM. Accessing a file across a network probably makes at least four copies: disk cache on sender, recipient RAM, recipient disk cache, recipient disk.

      With computerized data, "making a copy" is just a natural thing that happens. Making it into a big deal is silly - this isn't a printing press where "making a copy" is hard work, with a computer everyone who has ever seen a file naturally has a copy of it. Yes - that means that selling computerized versions of books isn't going to work if libraries lend out computer files. Maybe that's ok - not everything has to be a new revenue source.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    18. Re:Library? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      But most libraries do make photocopiers available to their patrons.

      Of course they expect that you only copy as much as you're allowed under Fair Use.

      It's really the same thing with P2P. The actual copy only happens when a downloader does indeed store the works on his own hard disk (rather than listening to it immediately, when it is streamed from the source, and not keep a copy).

      I'd argue that it's broadcast even though each connection only goes to one user.

      The thing here is that also the "uploader" made the files available, it's not he who decides whether an actual copy happens or not. He only set up his folder such that a third party might initiate a copy, if it so wishes.

      But he did so in the clear intent and knowledge that the files get copied. I'm pretty sure there's a law against helping others with what you know is illegal.

      It's not even a broadcast, as no data is transferred if nobody is interested in the works.

      That would mean you could stream anything, no matter who owns it. Would mean Youtube could upload copies of all popular movies and not pay a cent for them, hell, you could even set up a warez distribution website and just blame it all on the users who should have known better than downloading what you offer. I really don't think that's how it works and I doubt the definition of broadcast requires that the broadcaster is unaware of the number of users listening.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    19. Re:Library? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Granted, plenty of people copy works from the libraries outside of fair use standards but that's not the intended use by the library.

      My local library has Xerox machines in the lobby, yet to my knowledge, they don't get letters or lawsuits from anyone. Yet, obviously, the Xerox machines are designed to photocopy copyrighted material.

      So, I don't really see how you can make a clear, legal distinction between a teacher making a few dozen copies of a book that's been out of print for years to show to her class, and a kid throwing out a few hundred copies of his mp3 collection.

      In fact, the MAFIAA would certainly like there to be no difference -- then they can squeeze even more money out of us. They'd like that teacher to have to buy a copy of that book for every student. They'd like it even better if only that student could read that copy, so the teacher had to buy more copies every year. After all, if they'll sue grandmothers who've never used a computer, dead people, and 13-year-olds, it's obvious the only ethics they have are Ferengi ethics.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    20. Re:Library? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      No, the library makes their copies available for lawful distribution, whereas a fileserver is making their copies available for unlawful distribution (or more techically, unlawful performance or display). The real issue is just that the Copyright Act only makes actual infringements illegal, but doesn't make attempted infringements illegal. Nor does it make the offering of aid in an infringement illegal if there is no completed infringement. The question is whether the court here will go further than the actual language of the Act.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    21. Re:Library? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      For non-public domain materials, it's by a special arrangement, count on it.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    22. Re:Library? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      My county library makes books available for electronic checkout (essentially, a download). When you are done with the e-book, it's checked back into the library. This appears to be legal fair use in terms of copyright.

      It could be, but I'm confident that they aren't relying on fair use; they have paid for a license to be able to do this. (And when the license runs out, they stop being able to do this, which IMO makes it rather wasteful as compared to getting hardcopies)

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    23. Re:Library? by aztektum · · Score: 1

      "Accessing a file across a network probably makes at least four copies: disk cache on sender, recipient RAM, recipient disk cache, recipient disk."

      Sweet Jesus, man, don't tell them that! Once it becomes precedent you can be sued for having that data buffered in RAM/cached they'll start going after us for merely remembering an annoying song we heard before leaving the house or some shit!

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    24. Re:Library? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My local library has Xerox machines in the lobby, yet to my knowledge, they don't get letters or lawsuits from anyone. Yet, obviously, the Xerox machines are designed to photocopy copyrighted material.
      Yes, they are indeed. And the acts of photocopying in these situations tend to fall within fair use. If a copyright holder learned of an actual infringement, he may certainly feel compelled to take action. It's a copyright holder's prerogative.

      So, I don't really see how you can make a clear, legal distinction between a teacher making a few dozen copies of a book that's been out of print for years to show to her class, and a kid throwing out a few hundred copies of his mp3 collection.
      That's because there isn't necessarily "a clear, legal distinction." An aggrieved copyright holder may very well feel compelled to take action against the teacher, or he may not. An aggrieved copyright holder may very well feel compelled to take action against the mp3 distributor, or he may not. It's a copyright holder's prerogative.

      They'd like that teacher to have to buy a copy of that book for every student.
      I imagine there are probably some copyright holders who would indeed like that to be the case. Clearly, however -- as we don't see many copyright holders citing teachers for infringement -- most don't care. It's a copyright holder's prerogative.
    25. Re:Library? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now introducing libraryofmusicfiles.com, please, no copyright infringement allowed.

      (that's a joke son)

    26. Re:Library? by east+coast · · Score: 1

      So, I don't really see how you can make a clear, legal distinction between a teacher making a few dozen copies of a book that's been out of print for years to show to her class, and a kid throwing out a few hundred copies of his mp3 collection.

      You're missing the difference between getting caught and getting away with something. Just because Teacher X isn't getting sued over their action doesn't mean it's legal.

      I'm sure if there was a way for a photocopier to recognize that an article/book/whatever is being made in a manner not within the legal aspects of fair use that there would be lawsuits pending.

      Just as with copying... The RIAA had little to no cases against people making copies of cassettes, CDs or whatever in the 80s aside from outright pirates. Why's that? Because there was no easy way to tell that you made 17 copies of a Flock of Seagulls album and passed it out. It's a practice that is generally winked at because finding and prosecuting the guilty is like finding needles in a haystack. Today it's different. You don't need a legion of investigators or guys in trench coats taking pictures of bootleg vendors on the street. I could identify (by IP only mind you) hundreds of copyright violators from my PC with next to no effort.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    27. Re:Library? by east+coast · · Score: 1

      The distinction is significantly less relevant than you seem to think

      OK, once we hack through your technobabble logic the bottom line is still that libraries lend materials and don't hand out copies.

      Think what you will of copyright and people making a living off of producing this type of material in whatever form but it's still illegal. If you want to change the law to fit your argument go ahead and try. Don't be surprised when a lot of very low quality works are the result of this all.

      Yes - that means that selling computerized versions of books isn't going to work if libraries lend out computer files.

      What if they can only hand out one "copy" at a time? or that it's limited use? Not much unlike the Zune example I gave.

      Making it into a big deal is silly - this isn't a printing press where "making a copy" is hard work

      I don't consider taking just wages away from someone who produces them as silly. The words on those pages and the songs on that CD don't just appear and then someone gets paid to reproduce them. People actually make this stuff and other people make the equipment it takes to produce the works, so on and so forth. You're acting like the only effort and expense in this chain of production is simply the last step. Far from it.

      Maybe that's ok - not everything has to be a new revenue source

      That's true and there is tons of PD works out there. So why steal from those who'd like to make a bit of money off of their efforts?

      There is enough PD stuff out there to keep any human busy for a few lifetimes, there are tons of artists who give away tons of work. If your beef is really with the guy making a buck from the production of these works do the right thing and boycott him. Stealing from him only shows that he's making a valid work and some people are just to cheap to pay for it.

      And frankly, I think they're right. If you feel good enough about listening to/watching/reading something someone produced then payment should be made if that's the artists desire. That doesn't mean I support the 70 years after death copyright style laws (at least not always, some stuff isn't so clear cut). Is there a better way to do this? Sure. Is taking works without payment the answer? Hell no.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    28. Re:Library? by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      OK, once we hack through your technobabble logic the bottom line is still that libraries lend materials and don't hand out copies.

      Which means that sharing copyrighted information is legal, at least in the case of lending physical books. It also means that - as discussed in this thread - "Making Available" copyrighted material is legit. Now, it turns out that "making available" with a computer involves implicit copies. Trying to figure out what step of sharing copies is illegal is quite interesting, because it's not entirely clear.

      What if they can only hand out one "copy" at a time? or that it's limited use? Not much unlike the Zune example I gave.

      Warping and crippling the functionality of computer systems work in order to duplicate the commercial properties of books is absurd.

      If you feel good enough about listening to/watching/reading something someone produced then payment should be made if that's the artists desire.

      Just because I've enjoyed a copyrighted work does not mean that I owe someone money. This fact is generally accepted and not the least bit legally questionable - in the case of borrowing the copyrighted work from a library. I'm definitely against making book-lending libraries illegal.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    29. Re:Library? by east+coast · · Score: 1

      It also means that - as discussed in this thread - "Making Available" copyrighted material is legit. Now, it turns out that "making available" with a computer involves implicit copies. Trying to figure out what step of sharing copies is illegal is quite interesting, because it's not entirely clear.

      You're playing word lawyer here. Making some work available by lending the work is not the same as making it available by giving out copies. If you can't understand this than you can not understand the intent of the copyright law in general. I'm sorry. Or if you just choose to ignore the difference be that as it may, I simply won't bother discussing it with you. Once the "cuffs are on your hands" your willing ignorance of this law won't seem so cute. Again, that doesn't mean I support existing law but it is what it is. Either you can play by the rules or you can work to change the existing law. Breaking it as a form of protest isn't valid, IHMO and in the opinion of many others.

      Warping and crippling the functionality of computer systems work in order to duplicate the commercial properties of books is absurd.

      Don't use it then. That's your option.

      Just because I've enjoyed a copyrighted work does not mean that I owe someone money. This fact is generally accepted and not the least bit legally questionable - in the case of borrowing the copyrighted work from a library. I'm definitely against making book-lending libraries illegal.

      Someone was paid for that none the less. Again, you're trying to be cute by wrangling any little loophole you can find in the words I use. If you really think that you're this clever why don't you simply go to the courts with it?

      As far as libraries? So what? I buy my own books.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    30. Re:Library? by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      You're playing word lawyer here. Making some work available by lending the work is not the same as making it available by giving out copies.

      Someone's playing lawyer here, and it's not me. When a computer is involved, "making available" inherently results in copies being made. It makes a hell of a lot more sense for the law to be changed to reflect reality than to try to warp reality to reflect an outdated law.

      Breaking it as a form of protest isn't valid, IHMO and in the opinion of many others.

      That's absurd. If people were historically unwilling to protest unjust laws by breaking them, the world would be a pretty ugly place.

      As far as libraries? So what? I buy my own books.

      Die in a fire.

      That's not a troll, that's the legitimate and appropriate response to your statement.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    31. Re:Library? by east+coast · · Score: 1

      Someone's playing lawyer here, and it's not me. When a computer is involved, "making available" inherently results in copies being made. It makes a hell of a lot more sense for the law to be changed to reflect reality than to try to warp reality to reflect an outdated law.

      The current law doesn't require it because once you get past the technobabble aspect of the problem it still applies equally. No one has or is going to try to fine users because their PC has to copy a file to memory while being used. You know this and I know this.

      If people were historically unwilling to protest unjust laws by breaking them, the world would be a pretty ugly place.

      Sometime protest can take the form of breaking a law, yes, but these people taking copyright-protected media from the internet are not doing it in a manner that benefits the spirit of protest. If someone was publicly doing this and screaming "watch me break the stupid law" I would grant you that would be a protest. People sitting in their basements and downloading album after album and putting it on their iPods and hoping to not get caught is not a protest. Protests must be public and the objection to the law must be stated. This is not happening here. What if Rosa Parks would have sat in the front seat of an empty bus?

      That's not a troll, that's the legitimate and appropriate response to your statement.

      Whatever. Keep thinking the way you think. It doesn't bother me nor does it bother me when people get arrested/sued for breaking copyright laws. I stand by what I have said.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
  3. Illegal to not report a crime? by biocute · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you intentionally make your assets unprotected, and when stolen, you don't report to the police and just get on with the life, would it be illegal?

    I wonder what would happen if some broke into a house, instead of taking away CDs, he just copied them and left, would the house owner be liable for copyright infringement?

    1. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by denis-The-menace · · Score: 4, Funny

      re: would the house owner be liable for copyright infringement?

      Only if he runs off with the original and leaves you with a copy ;)

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    2. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by Ckwop · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you intentionally make your assets unprotected, and when stolen, you don't report to the police and just get on with the life, would it be illegal?

      No, I would say it's more like this. Suppose I built a device that could duplicate any physical item given to it exactly. Further suppose that people started using this device to duplicate cars so they didn't have to pay buy one from a car dealer.

      The car dealers, facing the total destruction of their business, decide to lobby Congress to pass laws that makes these duplication devices illegal. This, however, doesn't work. People are still making copies in the black-market.

      So again, through the courts and congress they attempt to make putting a car in any public place a crime.

      I know this is a bat-shit crazy analogy but to some extent that is because what the music industry is doing is bat-shit crazy.

      What really hurts is that Congress and the RIAA have totally missed just how revolutionary the Internet is. You'd expect the RIAA to be blind to this because of their own vested interests but for Congress to so completely miss the point is unforgivable.

      Simon

    3. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by paeanblack · · Score: 1

      I wonder what would happen if some broke into a house, instead of taking away CDs, he just copied them and left, would the house owner be liable for copyright infringement?

      If the owner derives financial benefit from the infringement, then yes, the owner could be held responsible for contributory and vicarious infringement.

      http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise14. html

    4. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you intentionally make your assets unprotected, and when stolen, you don't report to the police and just get on with the life, would it be illegal?

      If a tree falls in the woods, and it hits a mime, does anyone care?

    5. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by Cylix · · Score: 1

      In your scenario...

      I immediately invest everything I have in these magical duplication machines.

      Next, I design a car that is made completely from crack.

      I set the device to loop and I'm a very very rich man.

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    6. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1


      So if the burglar steals copies of your CDs and money falls out of his pockets on the way out, the homeowner is said to have "derives financial benefit from the infringement".

      Now I know I'm being facetious but with the way the music mafia has been able to bend/buy laws to suit them, you never know.

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetious
      (In case a lone Digger visitor gets confused with grammar...)

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    7. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by multisync · · Score: 1

      I know this is a bat-shit crazy analogy


      No car analogy is ever too bat-shit crazy 8^D
      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    8. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by paeanblack · · Score: 1

      So if the burglar steals copies of your CDs and money falls out of his pockets on the way out, the homeowner is said to have "derives financial benefit from the infringement".

      The homeowner is required to transfer possession of the money to the police and await any claim the owner may make upon the property. To not do so is simple theft.

      The money certainly does not belong to the homeowner; it belonged, ostensibly, to the burglar. Just because somebody robs you doesn't give you a right to their property.

    9. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by Intron · · Score: 1

      "Suppose I built a device that could duplicate any physical item given to it exactly."

      Wait a minute...

      This was a Twilight Zone episode.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    10. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by AeroIllini · · Score: 1

      What really hurts is that Congress and the RIAA have totally missed just how revolutionary the Internet is. You'd expect the RIAA to be blind to this because of their own vested interests but for Congress to so completely miss the point is unforgivable. Unforgivable, maybe, but not surprising. The last time a revolution this big happened in American society, we ended up beating the hell out of each other over it.
      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    11. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your analogy is flawed because cars are mostly NOT protected by copyright (only the manual(s) for it). Cars are protected by patents/trademarks.

    12. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is interesting... how about if you made a legal backup copy and the original broke or was stolen, are you then committing copyright infringement?

      Also is downloading a file that you already have the cd for legal, surely the RIAA need to verify that you have actually downloaded a track and also have not purchased the CD?

    13. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      The distinctions aren't really relevant. For the purposes of the replicator discussion, copyrights and patents are basically the same thing, since our ability to cheaply make copies of things will have increased into interesting new territories. And trademarks merely deal with non-useful source identifiers, which could surely be removed from the replicated cars, probably in the process of replication, if it turned out to be a headache at all.

      Of course, the car companies would like replicators for their own use, just not for their customers. They'd be able to fire all of their unionized employees, except for the members of the Allied Replicator Operators, get rid of factories and distribution systems, and just set up replicators at the dealers. Just as with copyright, there has never been a new technology that pirates could use, but publishers couldn't; publishers want a monopoly on the new technologies, is all.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    14. Re:Illegal to not report a crime? by Nurgled · · Score: 1

      Can you use one duplication machine to duplicate a second duplication machine? Can a duplication machine duplicate itself?

  4. Is making available copyright infringement? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know if it is. However, it should not be.

    The unconserved nature of information makes things get really absurd otherwise. The criminalization of reasonable actions across the board combined with making illegal any hardware/software that doesn't refuse to obey you and/or rat you out, and ultimately a huge gulf between what vendors offer and what consumers want.

    The simpler solution is to just allow it and build new business models around the new technological landscape. In the long run it winds up working better for everyone.

  5. Law by edwardpickman · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    No matter your opinion of copyright law transporting illegal goods is illegal, otherwise drug mules wouldn't be prosecuted. Is it the same? Of coarse not it's an extreme example. Say person "A" steals government secrets while person "B" transports information to person "C". By the law they are all at fault. It really doesn't matter how the information is transferred. Service providers aren't at fault because they aren't aware or involved directly in the specific transfer. I'm not going to weigh in on the right or wrong aspect of copyright but so long as the laws are what they are you can't provide copyrighted material without the permission of the copyright holder.

    1. Re:Law by zzsmirkzz · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but I think the point trying to be made here is whether or not you can point or direct someone to copyrighted material that someone else is providing (without the permission of the copyright holder). Is providing someone a link to a copyrighted clip hosted on YouTube or any other server, copyright infringement and I'd say no.

    2. Re:Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No matter your opinion of copyright law transporting illegal goods is illegal, otherwise drug mules wouldn't be prosecuted."

      Yeah, but pointing out the location of illegal goods is not against the law.

    3. Re:Law by Alchemar · · Score: 1

      The problem with your analogy, is that transporting copyrighted goods is not illegal, copying them without permission is. When you buy a book at the book store, they are handing you a copyrighted piece of work. They do not have the right to make copies of that work, but that is not what they are doing, they are transfering ownership of a copy which is perfectly legal under copyright law. To complete your analogy, person 'A' would have to be arrested before person 'B' picked up the material from person 'A' with no evidence that person 'B' was going to have any contact with person 'A' and person 'A' had a legal and legitimate reason to have that information in his possession. Analogies should make a problem easier to understand, your comparison can only be made valid by making the analogy more complex than the original problem.

      Something to consider ... a web page is a copyrighted work. Since you are no longer required to register copyright in order for them to be enforced, then all web pages are copyrighted. If you download a web page then you are making an electronic copy of that web page in your computer memory. Do you have written permission to be viewing this website? The bottom of the page I am typing states that comments are owned by poster and has a copyright notice to OSTG.
       
          Unless there are severe consequences, I think it is a really bad idea to proscecute on the basis of "could have" commited a crime. For the cases where there would be substantial and irreversible harm for someone to commit a crime, then pass a seperate law making it illegal to plan or intend to commit that crime. Attempted murder is illegal, not because murder is illegal and they attempted it, but because "attempt to commit murder" has been put on the books as a crime. There are good reasons for this law. "Attempt to speed" would probably not be a good law for the books. The consequences for speeding can be very severe, but a large majority of the time, there is no reason not to actually wait until the person commits the crime of speeding before writting the ticket. If someone is going to have such a significant loss of income from copyrighting, there should be enough infringment, that they should be able to locate at least one person that it was downloaded to. If you do not have one piece of evidence that the copyright has actually been infringed, then send a C&D letter, if it is ignored, then file to have a court order for the material to be removed and court cost paid. If you still don't have any evidence of actual infringemnent by the time that this takes place, then this was all that was neccessary anyways.

    4. Re:Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a bad analogy.

      There are laws that make the mere possessing of drugs illegal, plus other laws that make trafficking even more severely punishable.

      For secrets, it kind of depends. Government secrets have special additional protections in most countries, but if we consider trade secrets, for the most part the person who was under obligation to keep the secrets but leaks them is at fault. Other participants acting with the original leaker can be charged as accomplices under conspiracy rules. However, once the secret is truly out (leaked sufficiently broadly), it simply no longer is secret. The original leaker and accomplices may be charged, but nobody else.

      For copyright, it's not that the material itself is considered contraband, but the act of anyone other than the copyright holder copying it is copyright infringement.

      That's all copyright is - the copyright holder has, by default, the exclusive right to create copies of the work. Even that exclusivity has exceptions.

  6. Knowingly and unknowingly? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If they rule "making available" some copyrighted work, even if it is done unbenown to the owner of the computer, well, whoever you are who gave a lift to the hitchhiker who was later found to be the serial killer, tremble in your feet. They are going to come after you with "aiding and abetting".

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Knowingly and unknowingly? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  7. slippery slope by User+956 · · Score: 5, Funny

    NewYorkCountryLawyer updates us now that the legal issue -- is it copyright infringement merely to "make available" a copyrighted work?

    This of course, leading to 2011's legal dilemma: Is it copyright infringement to "view" a copyrighted work?

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
  8. Moot by Sigma+7 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If something is "made available", then distribution is only one step away. As you know, items that are "available" are easily obtained - and "evidence" of copyright violation can be done by downloading or obtaining the copies in question.

    This case in question sounds like it's arguing a technicality - which is trivial for any lawyer to work around by showing that copies were made from the site (rather than simply being posted.)

    1. Re:Moot by amRadioHed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd say it's a little more than a technicality. If the RIAA can't be bothered to gather the appropriate evidence before raising allegations against someone then the case should be thrown out. The burden of evidence is on them to prove any wrongdoing was committed.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    2. Re:Moot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank God you're not MY lawyer.

    3. Re:Moot by radarjd · · Score: 1
      If something is "made available", then distribution is only one step away. As you know, items that are "available" are easily obtained - and "evidence" of copyright violation can be done by downloading or obtaining the copies in question.

      This case in question sounds like it's arguing a technicality - which is trivial for any lawyer to work around by showing that copies were made from the site (rather than simply being posted.)

      I think you're exactly right -- the point of this case is really about the evidentiary problem of showing actual distribution. The copyright law makes distribution of a work the exclusive right of the copyright holder 17 USC 106(3). That is clearly an infringment. This case is trying to lower the requirement of showing actual distribution to merely making available. You would think that showing actual distribution would be fairly simple (that is, just download the file yourself), but it appears that in practice it's not so easy.

      In any case, there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason here to classify "making available" as "distribution" as a matter of law. We'll see what the court thinks.

    4. Re:Moot by terrymr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem for the RIAA is that their investigator can't download the song himself and then use that as an example of infringement because it is a legal impossibility to violate your own copyright. So the courts are being asked to find against somebody on the basis that somebody else probably downloaded the song. This is a poor standard of proof.

    5. Re:Moot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA -- They specifically stated that the RIAA cannot prove dissemination even ephemerally and has never even tried to do so.

      They use bullying legal tactics and the appearance of impropriety (as interpretted by them) to extort settlements out of people. By traditional definition, actual copyright infringement doesn't occur until the copyrighted work is either illegally copied or distributed.

      The danger warned of here is that the RIAA is basically trying to expand the definition of copyright into crazily broad terms. From my interpretation, it's roughly equivalent to the criminal code being expanded to say that if you leave your house unlocked, YOU'RE guilty of theft if someone else steals your stuff...

    6. Re:Moot by Phoenix+Rising · · Score: 1

      Except...
      1) It's a third-party investigator, and
      2) Distribution is the violation, not receipt.

      Even if the valid copyright holder downloaded the available content, the person making the content available is the one doing the distribution, and hence the one violating the copyright.

      What remains is proof that the person being sued is in fact responsible for the shared folder in question: was the sharing intentional or willfully negligent, and was the person named the one responsible for maintaining that system and the owner of that folder?

      (PS, before someone posits it: it's also not entrapment; that's limited to government law enforcement...)

      --
      Let us live so that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry -- Mark Twain
    7. Re:Moot by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      (that is, just download the file yourself) But in that case, the copy would happen with your (the copyright holder's) permission, and would no longer be infringing. The copyright holder would still need to show that people other than himself or his agents made a copy. Not so simple...
    8. Re:Moot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's interesting theory, and I'm SURE the RIAA likes the way you think, however I disagree.

      IMHO any so-called "downloader" is using their computer and the internet to make an illegal copy of my data, thus by their action, they're guilty of infringment and are the sole perpetrator of the crime. No law is broken UNTIL the 3rd party decides to copy my files, at which time s/he has chosen to commit a crime.

      This of course is a perspective that the RIAA pays BIG MONEY to keep anyone important from ever espousing (and, co-incidently, why they hate, HATE, HATE Canadian law which codifies exactly what I just described, leaving them little room to insert their own interpretation via the courts)...

    9. Re:Moot by terrymr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Third party or not he's doing this on behalf of the RIAA which means that it's as if the RIAA is doing it. The infringement does not exist because the RIAA can't infringe their own copyrights. Simply sharing the folder isn't infringement, the RIAA needs to provide some level of proof that a non-RIAA individual actually downloaded the file. Otherwise no copy has been made, copyright law deals in the right to copy.

    10. Re:Moot by Score+Whore · · Score: 1
      What planet are you from? Cause, I'd like to avoid it if it's full of idiots like yourself.

      Otherwise no copy has been made, copyright law deals in the right to copy.


      Someone who has a right to make a copy receiving a copy from someone who doesn't have a right to copy does not automatically grant a license to copy. Even if the copyright holder asks for it. If Bob Dylan went down to the area where the people who commit copyright violations hang out and asks them one by one of they have such and such a CD, and they whip out their trusty CD burner to make him a quick dupe, he most certainly would be able to litigate.

      Astonishingly stupid.
    11. Re:Moot by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      Even if the valid copyright holder downloaded the available content, the person making the content available is the one doing the distribution, and hence the one violating the copyright.

      That doesn't seem cut and dry to me. If I take a picture (and thus make a copy) of a poster you have hanging on the wall, have you distributed that poster? Certainly not. What if I hang the poster outside for anyone to come and take a picture of? Still no, though this would constitute a public display.

      Maybe the RIAA could have argued public display or public performance in this case, but that's not what they're doing. And most likely they're not doing that because sound recordings have very limited protections for public performances, and there are statutory licenses available for such transmissions which are protected.

    12. Re:Moot by terrymr · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm not the only stupid one then : http://www.joegratz.net/archives/2005/09/02/p2p-de fendant-riaas-own-downloads-cant-prove-infringemen t/ - lawyers who know more about this than me use the same arguments.

    13. Re:Moot by terrymr · · Score: 1

      Ever sent a CD out for duplication ? If you are the copyright holder you can't sue the duplicator for making copies after you instructed them to do it. Assuming Bob Dylan is the holder of the copyright on his recordings he really can't sue somebody for copying his work after he asks them to. Distributing copies without permission to somebody other than the copyright holder is a violation.

    14. Re:Moot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stfu, noob. Your post is ridiculously naive.

      Go back to "Make shit up and try to pass it off as fact" planet. I'm sure there's a village there that's missing you quite a bit.

  9. How does this affect other sources? by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Software exists for OCR from camera sources such as cell phones. Would the presence of, say, a bookstore which allows patrons to browse the shelves and - presumably - photograph the pages be liable under this expansion? What are the special circumstances for libraries, and could they be considered liable under this distribution interpretation?

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:How does this affect other sources? by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 1

      How about this - the office of the student group I volunteer with has a photocopier that any of us can freely use. Similarly, we've got dozens of copyrighted magazines lying about (mostly Rolling Stone, since we do music stuff). By "making available" copyrighted material and a method of copying it, are we violating the law every time we don't have an advisor monitoring the office (about 12-16 hours a day, and all weekend)?

    2. Re:How does this affect other sources? by garcia · · Score: 1

      Software exists for OCR from camera sources such as cell phones.

      Yeah, it exists but it fucking sucks. Have you ever used the software that does OCR from images? If you haven't try something like gocr for Linux and tell me how it worked out for you. Even if the OCR software available for cell phone images is 100x better, it will still be pointless.

    3. Re:How does this affect other sources? by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Textbridge -- works like a champ.

  10. I think not... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If 'making available' is a violation is it illegal for me to loan a paperback to a friend ?
    Is it a copyright violation to 'make available' if no copy is never actually made ?

  11. depends on the copyright agreement by bug1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Copyright gives the author exclusive rights over copying, they can attach other conditions (like money, only making 1 copy, not making it available) when they grant the rights to copy, but copyright is only supposed to be about copy rights... surprised ?

    If the copyright agreement doesnt mention "making availabile" then copyright cant prohibit it.

    But of course IANAL.

    1. Re:depends on the copyright agreement by Phoenix+Rising · · Score: 1

      This is a really thin line.

      If someone offers for sale (on eBay) an e-Book or PDF of a physical book, that comes perilously close to illegality, IMHO. Whether or not a copy was sent is a matter of timing... No barrier exists in this case to anyone downloading copyrighted material whenever they choose.

      This is, in the end, about a legal technicality and about what the law currently states. Ruling against the RIAA would open up the absurd but possible scenario of an automated book publisher "making available" a book such that an anonymous user could click a button on the Internet, a press would start printing, and a robot would automatically ship the book without anyone knowing that anything had actually happened except the person pushing the button. Does that make the theoretical book publisher a copyright violator for making the book available, or is it only a copyright violation if they can catch a copy being shipped out the door?

      IMHO, willfully offering copyright material is essentially solicitation or intent to commit a civil and/or criminal violation. The question here is: does the law recognize that right now?

      --
      Let us live so that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry -- Mark Twain
    2. Re:depends on the copyright agreement by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      Copyright gives the PUBLISHER whatever rights you are talking about, not that author, as you suggest. Read the notices more closely on the inside cover of a book that is nearby. Does is say "Copyright Joe Johnson" or does is say "Copyright ABC Publishing"?

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    3. Re:depends on the copyright agreement by bug1 · · Score: 1

      Actually, it gives the copyright holder exclusive rights, the author/creator is originally the copyright holder, but ownership of the copyright can be transfered to say a publisher.

    4. Re:depends on the copyright agreement by bug1 · · Score: 1

      "a press would start printing" which requires a licence, as it creating a copy of something that somebody else has been granted exclusive rights over.

      To say its willful implies intent, which is something that cant be hard coded into law, its something a judge/jury need to consider.

    5. Re:depends on the copyright agreement by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      it is a good point that you make. i am 75-80% done writing/editing a novel and want to publish it, though i know if i do this through a conventional publish it is high risk. so I've considered self-publishing. advantage of conventional method? payment up front. advantage of self-publishing? retain rights. both not having rights locked up in a publishing house and being paid are hopes of mine. another consideration that is totally unconventional is to setup a paypal so I can receive micro-payments from a potential audience with the promise of releasing by-sa through the Creative Commons. I think that way, everybody wins.

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    6. Re:depends on the copyright agreement by cei · · Score: 1

      No, no, no... Copyright gives the author exclusive rights over distribution. Ultimately the RIAA doesn't care if you make 100 copies of a CD in the privacy of your bedroom. It's what happens to those CDs when they leave your house that bothers them...

      --
      This sig intentionally left justified.
    7. Re:depends on the copyright agreement by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >Does is say "Copyright Joe Johnson" or does is say "Copyright ABC Publishing"?

      Most books I have at home actually says "Copyright Author". The publisher then has some sort of publishing deal. Sure, most books at my home aren't bought in USA, so it might be completely different there so that the authors don't have the copyright but the publishers. Seems do vary between countries when it comes to copyright.

    8. Re:depends on the copyright agreement by bug1 · · Score: 1

      "No, no, no... Copyright gives the author exclusive rights over distribution."

      To quote from Open Source Licensing by Lawrence Rosen

      "So too, if you own a copyright, you have have an exclusive right to do certain things with your copyrighted intellectual property that others cannot do without your permission:
        * You have an exclusive right to make copies.
        * You have an exclusive right to prepare derivative works
        * You have an exclusive right to distribute copies of the original or derivative works."

      (an other rights for specific types of works)

      The right to distribute is worthless by itself, you need to be able to copy it to distribute it.

  12. WTF? by umbrellasd · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Is it copyright infringement merely to "make available" a copyrighted work?
    Libraries.
  13. Architecture? by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 0, Redundant

    So if i build a building and someone photographs it, have I "made it available". If I display an artist's copywritten work in a lobby and the same thing happens, am I liable?

    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    1. Re:Architecture? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting point. Did you know that if you have a painting in the lobby of your building and, while filming a promotional video for your company, school, etc., happen to capture that painting in your video then you are infringing.

    2. Re:Architecture? by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      That was sort of my point. The owner of the building who hung the painting should know that he does or does not have copyright permission to film the painting, but if Joe Filmer walks in and without permission from the building owner happens to capture a few frames of the painting has the building owner contributed to the potential infringment? If the film is ruled fair use, is the building owner off the hook?

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
    3. Re:Architecture? by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      If I display an artist's copywritten work in a lobby and the same thing happens, am I liable?

      Maybe for public display, and maybe for contributory copyright infringement, but not for distribution.

    4. Re:Architecture? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      What possible legal basis do you have for saying that? The answer should have been "of course not".

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    5. Re:Architecture? by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      To perform or display a work "publicly" means - (1) to perform or display it at a place open to the public...

      If I display a work in my lobby, and my lobby is open to the public, then I've publicly displayed the work. Doesn't get more cut and dry than that.

      (Yes, I might be allowed to do this, under fair use or under some other exception to copyright law. I never said it was necessarily infringing.)

    6. Re:Architecture? by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

      Artists need their work to be displayed. That's how they go from being starving unknown artists, to well known famous artists that can print 4 colored soup cans and make money.
      Any system that assumes that you must keep an artist's work under wraps unless you have specific permission to show it, is broken. The system *must* be that you have to have a specific license with the artist forbidding display to make displaying it in your semi-public lobby a problem. (of course any artist that forces you to sign such a license is either already wealthy, or crazy, or both)

      --
      All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  14. Probably. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Technically it is not illegal to advertise your services as a hitman or drug dealer. It only becomes illegal either when money changes hands or the act is committed. However, there is usually a lesser charge of "intent" that you can get nailed with. "Making available" would probably fall under that category. I am not a legal expert, but I would imagine there have been "intent to infringe" laws on the books for a while.

    Besides, what is the point of "making available" if not to distribute? You don't make something available if you don't intend to distribute it (though I suppose this depends on exactly how you define "available").

    1. Re:Probably. by Applekid · · Score: 2, Funny

      Besides, what is the point of "making available" if not to distribute? You don't make something available if you don't intend to distribute it

      Exactly. Why'd that hot secretary have to get so mad at me?

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    2. Re:Probably. by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      This may be one of those fine-line cases. Making a work available in meatspace may not cross the line, on the web probably does, and doing so on using P2P software (for which the primary intent is mutual distribution of files) definietly does. Not that I think the law actually says that, just that the practical application suggests it. Sadly, laws are finite in scope and all have loophole between intent and application. Depending on the situation it may work for you or against you. Laws written for physical media don't translate well to digital space where both delivery and reproduction costs are essentially zero.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    3. Re:Probably. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      meatspace? Is that some sort of social networking site? Sign me up!

  15. Interesting idea - definition of a library by Weaselmancer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From Merriam-Webster:

    1 a : a place in which literary, musical, artistic, or reference materials (as books, manuscripts, recordings, or films) are kept for use but not for sale b : a collection of such materials

    Sounds exactly like a share folder to me. I wonder why nobody has used this as a defense before?

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Is it legal to operate a private (as opposed to public, i.e. government-run) library? I know the first libraries in America were private, but I don't think any exist nowadays...

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sounds exactly like a share folder to me. I wonder why nobody has used this as a defense before?

      Because in order to play it on your computer, you must make a copy, whereas the library lends you the copy, depriving them of their sole copy, and they lose if you do not return it. This is what the media companies want, so that libraries keep having to buy content.

      Of course, it's also why they want to prevent you from making your legally protected backup copies for personal use.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by GeckoX · · Score: 1

      Simply because at a library, there is a reasonable guarantee that only one person at a time will ever have access to any given resource. Further, for a resource to actually leave the library, it will be tracked.

      Not saying that could not be done with a share folder, but there are a lot more problems in enforcing this.

      --
      No Comment.
    4. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Is it legal to operate a private (as opposed to public, i.e. government-run) library?

      Hmmm ... I have a "home office" with a lot of bookcases filled with books. I sometimes loan a book to a friend. Am I running a private library?

      For that matter, if someone (perhaps a guest in my home or a burglar) takes a book without my permission, can I be prosecuted for copyright infringement? How about if they don't take the book, but just make copies of a few pages on the Xerox machine in the corner, and take those copies?

      It seems to me that, what with the advent of "telecommuting", this sort of thing can only become more common. Can all be guilty of copyright infringement if we let anyone (even a burglar) have access to our home library?

      And how is this really different from similar sharing (perhaps inadvertently) of the same copyrighted information on our computer's hard disk?

      IANAL, so I'd like to find some coherent (i.e., non-legalese) explanations of all this. Yes, I've read a lot on the topic. What I've read has only made me more nervous about my future liabilities.

      I used to think that helping educate others by sharing information was a Good Thing ...

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    5. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by e4g4 · · Score: 1

      Private schools and universities have their own libraries, and generally only allow access to them to their affiliates.

      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    6. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "Sounds exactly like a share folder to me. I wonder why nobody has used this as a defense before?"

      I don't think it would pass the laugh test in a court. Using a P2P program requires duplication. Libraries do not -- they make copy machines available, but there's usually a sign warning you about copyright violation, and, of course, it's quite easy to use a copy machine for purposes that fall under fair use doctrine. Compare this to a P2P app -- if somebody else on the network has a share directory which includes material that's there without authorization. To get it, you must make a copy and most likely infringe upon the copyright.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    7. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "For that matter, if someone (perhaps a guest in my home or a burglar) takes a book without my permission, can I be prosecuted for copyright infringement? How about if they don't take the book, but just make copies of a few pages on the Xerox machine in the corner, and take those copies?"

      I think you're being tripped up by the "unauthorized lending" you see on some copyright statements. I've never known it to apply to books. In other words, if you lend a book to a friend, or even if somebody takes one of your books, you're not liable.

      In the second example, I think you're getting tripped up by stories you've heard about contributory copyright infringement. In the online world, there typically has to be intent to prosecute, and information providers are covered by the DMCA Safe Harbor -- that is, if the party that holds the copyrights jumps through a proscribed set of hoops to inform you of the violation and you take action, you're in the clear.

      In the old-media world, I'd think the test would have to go way beyond this. Certainly, somebody breaking into your house and copying your stuff without your knowledge or authorization wouldn't come near that, so don't worry -- you're in the clear.

      "I used to think that helping educate others by sharing information was a Good Thing ..."

      Oh, it is. Share the stuff that you have created all you want. Additionally, fair use doctrine has an "educational use" clause that covers a good bit of information sharing. Naturally, downloading Pirates of the Carribean and seeding it is not "helping educate others by sharing information." It's copyright infringement, plain and simple.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    8. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Because a friggin' folder doesn't preclude you from copying. Oh, wait, accessing the contents automatically copies them. Hmm. Not at all like a library. Mayhap that's the reason, it ain't the same.

    9. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by juan2074 · · Score: 1

      Damn it!
      Now I must move my library to the Uruguayan consulate.

    10. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Laur · · Score: 1

      Because in order to play it on your computer, you must make a copy, whereas the library lends you the copy, depriving them of their sole copy, and they lose if you do not return it.
      If I borrow a CD or DVD from the library and play it on my computer, I am also making a copy on my computer.
      --
      When you lose something irreplaceable, you don't mourn for the thing you lost, you mourn for yourself. - Harpo Marx
    11. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by cliffski · · Score: 1

      surely this is totally different. If someone borrows a book from you, you no longer have that book. That's perfectly ok. If the person who borrowed it loves it, they may buy their own copy when they return yours. That's perfectly cool.
      The problem is when they copy the book. Now there are two copies but only one was paid for. That the situation that has got us to this point.(lawyers, DRM etc.)
      I doubt many media companies or software companies are that bothered about people lending each other the odd DVD, book or game. It's when such arguments are used to defend some 'l33t p1r4t3' who shares 6 gigs of mp3s in his p2p shared directory, and leaves his machine on 24/7 on 8 mb broadband.... that's just a silly and indefensible extrapolation of 'fair use'.
      I don't know exactly where the line should be drawn, but I know theres clearly a lot of people who just out and out copyright thieves, and it doesn't help the fair use, anti-drm lobby *at all* to defend their actions in any way.
      On the other hand, the MPAA etc could do their side (and in some ways, mine, as a copyright holder) a great deal of good by showing far better judgement in when and who they prosecute. There are enough people out their to make good examples of, without having to sue people lip-synching on youtube, or making other very minor breaches of copyright.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    12. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1

      Not saying that could not be done with a share folder, but there are a lot more problems in enforcing this. In aMule, you can set the max number of outgoing transfers (3, by default). If you set it to one, it would mean that no 2 people could download at once.

      And netstat shows you who (which IP) is currently downloading (which is the same as many libraries do. Especially for controversial books, they only keep track as long as they are checked out, and destroy the records when they are back in).

    13. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How is you reading/listening/watching something and copying it to YOUR memory that much different copying a file? Some people even "photographic" memories, and could probably duplicate what they read.

    14. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by swilver · · Score: 1

      What if I remove the copy then after it was downloaded? I'm sure I can find some music I don't want anymore that I could delete after it was downloaded :)

    15. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      So those shelves filled with thousands upon thousands of fiction books are educational? If the test is "Is this materials educational" then almost every public library is committing copyright violations daily.

    16. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What percentage of the 25,000 cases are against an 'elite pirate' with 6 gigs of music being shared on an 8mb upload pipe?

      Sorry, but that isn't who they're attacking.

      The industry has every reason to want to scare people away from p2p distribution systems. Zealots have established thousands of times over that the industry does not have a modern business model. There's no need for a middle man. Bands could easily distribute their work themselves. By scaring people away from p2p, making people believe that it's illegal, pushing for DRM and making it illegal to break DRM, they will continue their market dominance.

      The problem is that we're all sitting on our asses bitching about it online. Get 100,000 people to march around outside the white house or a court room and MAKE them fucking listen. But that won't happen, because the general public doesn't give a fuck that they're being treated like little sheep. They're content to purchase corporate music. Britney Spears doesn't have a right to make millions of dollars, people give her that privlege.

      The worst that could happen is that we say, no fuck you, re-write the copyright laws to last for 15 years. Oh they would bitch and fight now, but I guarantee if the people stood up and made it happen, they'd continue to make their movies and albums and music videos, and they'd continue to profit the same as they did before. People would still buy from big name stores because they're safe. They'd still buy from their favorite bands because they'd still be their favorite bands.

    17. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "So those shelves filled with thousands upon thousands of fiction books are educational? If the test is "Is this materials educational" then almost every public library is committing copyright violations daily."

      Not sure if I follow. If you're referring to the normal actions of a library -- that is, lending books -- it's not an infringing action regardless of the book's subject matter. Don't get caught up on the specious "my share directory is just like a library" argument, as using P2P requires making a copy, which is where the potential infringement occurs. The GGP was concerned that the act of lending a book is infringement; he has nothing to worry about. He might have gotten scared by the "no unauthorized lending" clause he's seen in some copyright statements, but if he wants to loan a book to his friend, he's in the clear -- even if the court finds against the defendant in the P2P lawsuit.

      When in doubt, use common sense.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    18. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Then why did you even bother to bring the educational value of material into the argument? You stated that Pirates of the Carribean is not educational, and therefore not protected. I simply stated that thousands of fiction books are not educational either, yet still seem to be loaned out by libraries without being sued by publishers for infringement. If that's not part of your argument, why did you bring it up in the first place?

      As for making a copy, every time you view a page of a book, you've made a copy of that book on the back of your retina. It's only temporary, but it is a copy. If someone only downloaded shared files to a RAM drive, would that be protected? It's as temporary as that copy in your mind is.

    19. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by damium · · Score: 2, Informative

      And that was argued in a copyright case. The claim was that copying a program to the memory on your computer could count as copyright violation. The courts ruled that copying a program to memory or to a hard disk was not copyright infringement when such use was necessary to the operation of the program.

    20. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I borrow a CD or DVD from the library and play it on my computer, I am also making a copy on my computer.

      This, right here, is an absolutely key point. Using any sort of digitally stored data innately involves making copies of it. That means that either listening to CDs should be illegal, or that simply copying a file is something that people are allowed to do.

      I have to say that I favor people being able to copy a file. In fact, the idea that some random "rights holder" who I don't even know can tell me which functions of my electronic devices I am allowed to use seems absurd.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    21. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      downloading Pirates of the Carribean and seeding it is not "helping educate others by sharing information." It's copyright infringement, plain and simple.

      This belief that copyrighted material *has no intellectual value* is absurd. If it has no intellectual value, then obviously there's no reason to restrict copying it. If it has intellectual value, then obviously others benifit if you share it with them.

      Further, just because some act of sharing would be copyright infringement *doesn't* mean that helping others by sharing information isn't a good thing. When your parents taught you that sharing was good they were right... some sharing just happens to be illegal now.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    22. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With a library you can not enforce the users not to make copies of the lent book in their homes. Why do you need to enforce that with an electronic library then? How do you enforce that your library users do not kill each other? Why do you even need to enforce others to follow the laws if you are not a policeman?

    23. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      The problem is when they copy the book.

      This emphasis on number of copies is sort of silly when it comes to computer files. It just doesn't work that way - computers make tons of copies, all the time. Consider buying a song off of iTunes and putting it on your iPod - that's two copies and no-one's upset. Now - if you lend your iPod to a friend and you listen to the song on your iTunes install, is that copyright infringement?

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    24. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      If I borrow a CD from a library and listen to it, that "automatically makes a copy" into the anti-jitter buffer on my CD player. Is that copyright infringement?

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    25. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      I don't think that having a "library" necessarily implies "lending out".
       
      Most of us here have a private library of books and other materials that we use for our own purposes, which may or may not include lending any item to someone else. I may even occasionally give an item from my library to someone else as a gift.
       
      You don't need a sign on the door that says "library" to have one.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    26. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      So those shelves filled with thousands upon thousands of fiction books are educational?
       
      Certainly. Many works of fiction expose the reader to far-off lands and other ages, ideas and philosophies expressed by characters in the books, concepts of science, law, investigative theory, fishing, you-name-it.
       
      Just because it's "fiction" doesn't mean that it is worthless as anything other than fluff. You really don't have to check your mind at the door before sitting down to read a good novel.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    27. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by stupid_is · · Score: 1

      using P2P requires making a copy
      Not according to this guy :-)
      --
      -- Intelligence is soluble in alcohol
    28. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      I happen to agree, but the person arguing with me seems to find Pirates of the Caribbean to have no educational value.

    29. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by cliffski · · Score: 1

      Blame the pirates.
      seriously.
      I cut out the middle man and sell software direct and low prices, with no DRM straight to the customers. you know what happens?
      people pirate the stuff and distruibute it online. Thats the thanks I get. When pirate kiddies dont give a damn whose work they take, and blatantly copy peoples work without thought for the consequences, who can blame people who reach for DRM to protect their hard work?
      I hear a lot of people blaming DRM for piracy. That's not good enough, because even non-DRMed stuff gets pirated, and the kids (and often not kids, but adults who should know better) doing it don't give a shit. I'll start complaining about DRM when the anti-DRM people get their house in order and have the guts to denounce the software and movie pirates for what they are.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    30. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      If I borrow a CD or DVD from the library and play it on my computer, I am also making a copy on my computer.

      Yes, and under those circumstances, making the copy for the purposes of playing it, likely falls under an implied license or fair use. But making a copy to keep, or making a copy from the Internet generally, would be different circumstances. That they're all copies on the computer might make them seem to be the same, but trust me, they're very different, since the law can recognize and deal with things like the differing provenances of bit-for-bit identical copies.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    31. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is legal, but it's not quite as advantageously positioned as a public library. And there are still private libraries. For example, here in Boston, we have the Boston Athenæum.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    32. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by gfreeman · · Score: 1

      ....

      My parents taught me that sharing things that were mine was a good thing. I never tried to share the chocolate bar on the store's shelf that no-one had bought yet, nor did I share next-door's toys.

      If you don't own something, you can't share it, IMO. If IP can be owned, then the owner gets to decide who to share it with.

      Of course, if someone shares their cookies with me, I am free to take one of the cookies I was given and pass it on.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    33. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by gfreeman · · Score: 1

      Hardly random though, is it? You have a CD from Sony (spit ...), you know who the rights holder is. It's not random at all.

      As for the functions argument, there are plenty of laws telling you what functions of many devices you are not allowed to use in certain circumstances. That gun you legally own and shoot? Gosh darn it there are laws telling you how you can use it. Your car also has conditions around it's ownership. Your property/real estate, hell even your money is restricted in how you can use it.

      Just because you own something does not mean there are no laws restricting it's use. It can be absurd in some cases agreed, but when it comes to law that's to be expected.

      The absurdity here I suppose is that it should be perfectly legal for you to copy the file. Just not to play it. Unless of course you live in Canada, in which case copy away, and play all you like. Another absurdity - and it's all down to law again.

      It may be no bad thing to severely shorten the protection period of IP, and that will in turn bring a radical change to the way mass entertainment is produced. For good or bad, we cannot know just yet. Be careful what you wish for.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    34. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If I borrow a CD or DVD from the library and play it on my computer, I am also making a copy on my computer.

      First of all, if you play the CD through analog and not digital audio, you are not making a copy on your computer. Just thought I'd put that out there right now. Some machines don't even have the analog cable any more (most laptops, some desktops) so let me move on to the second point.

      When you play a DVD on your computer, it reads tiny portions of it, interprets them, displays the interpreted result, and flushes both original and interpreted data. It is never stored in a fully playable form. Portions of the video may be cached (and probably are) to prevent stuttering, but you can't just go play the cache. The same is true of playing a CD through digital means.

      So, is that really copying? In the literal sense, of course it is. But in the functional sense, I would argue that it is not.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    35. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by GeckoX · · Score: 1

      Yep, and therein lies the problem. In a library, the resource gets returned. There is a reasonable guarantee that after a borrowed resource is returned that there will remain only 1 copy of said resource.

      Not so with files downloaded from a share.

      --
      No Comment.
    36. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by GeckoX · · Score: 1

      That's just stupid, but whatever, I'll bite.

      There is a very reasonable guarantee that a user that borrows a resource from a library will not in fact make a copy of said resource. Books are not easy to copy. Very few people ever do. It's just not a problem.

      Downloading files from a share however, insta-copy every time. There is a big difference. Feign ignorance if you like, but it is what it is.

      --
      No Comment.
    37. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      If IP can be owned, then the owner gets to decide who to share it with.

      Thinking about "intellectual property" as being similar to real property results only in confusion and absurdities. In fact, thinking about "intellectual property" at all only results in confusion.

      One thing is really clear though: If I have a computer file and my friend asks me for a copy, it is trivially easy for me to give them one. Not sharing with my friend in that case would make me an asshole.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    38. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by gfreeman · · Score: 1

      It is confusing to consider ownership of something that you cannot pick up and cart away. Some older civilisations considered land 'unownable', as we belong to the land and not the other way round.

      Just because something is trivial to do, does not make it right. In your example it would depend on what kind of file you'd like to copy and give to your friend. If I were your friend I wouldn't consider you an asshole for not giving me rips of the CDs you had bought. If I did, that would make me an asshole too.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    39. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Lockejaw · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell, this seems to be handled by treating it like the best analogous non-computer situation. This means there's something "special" about the copy the computer makes in memory as it plays a CD, runs a program, or whatever, since in a non-computer situation (playing a CD on a stereo, following a list of isntructions, etc.) there wouldn't be any copying, and there certainly wouldn't be any distribution of copies. Unfortunately, this kind of system tends to define violations as "you know it when you see it" -- clearly you don't, or there wouldn't be any disagreement over whether or not a given action is a violation.

      --
      (IANAL)
    40. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      If I were your friend I wouldn't consider you an asshole for not giving me rips of the CDs you had bought.

      I don't know why you wouldn't. Refusing to share something that I have an unlimited supply of would absolutely make me an asshole. It's like if you asked me for directions - I could say "Sorry, but that would mean you didn't have to buy a map, thus hurting cartographers", but if I said that I'd be a jerk.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    41. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by gfreeman · · Score: 1

      Not the same thing at all - giving directions infringes no copyright. A better parallel you could have used would be you photocopying your map and giving it to me. Depending on local laws and how much of the map you copied, this may be illegal.

      Or going the other way, similar to giving directions but not the map itself, it would be you humming or whistling the entire CD for me. Depending on how badly you whistle, that could be enough to seal the end of our friendship.

      No cartographers were harmed in the posting of this message.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    42. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      Giving directions infringes no copyright.

      Who cares? If it did infringe copyright that wouldn't make me any less a dick for refusing to give directions for the sake of cartographer profits. If I refuse to help a friend over a foolish law that can't be enforced, that makes me a dick.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    43. Re:Interesting idea - definition of a library by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I'd argue that the important point about sharing is about not being selfish -- putting others' interests above your own, albeit temporarily -- not about duplicating a toy so that someone else can play with it without depriving yourself in the process. In fact, sharing is not really what happens, so it's almost as much of a straw man when discussing IP as "stealing."

      Copyright infringement is immoral. I don't believe it should be a criminal offense unless the offender is profiting. Nonetheless it is, inherently, enjoying the fruits of someone else's labor without compensating them and/or without their permission.

      Remember, copyright is the same thing protecting Linux and other F/OSS.

  16. man copyright is completely stupid by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    IANAL, but i would like a lawyer to tell me something:

    is it possible to create something, and append a disclaimer to the effect of "this work is not bound protected or has anything whatsoever to do with the incredibly insipid copyright laws of the united states"

    would that be legally binding?

    ip law is so out of touch with reality that it seems to me that the only way to move forward is for content creators to explicitly opt out of the antiquated system. they will of course, reap vaster rewards for having unfettered access to their works

    if that doesn't make sense to you as to why vaster rewards await those who jettison retarded copyright, then you just don't get it

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:man copyright is completely stupid by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      IANAL either, but I think that's called releasing your work to the public domain. It used to be quite common for most works to be public domain unless explicitly copyrighted, until copyright was amended to be automatically applied to everything.

    2. Re:man copyright is completely stupid by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Informative

      That is in fact happening. See Creative Commons, FreeCulture, Free Software Foundation, etc.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    3. Re:man copyright is completely stupid by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      IANAL either, but yes. You can release directly into the public domain. Hell, I don't think you don't really need to specify. You can just completely fail to enforce any copyright infringement. That's the whole point of copyright law: to give power over the distribution of the said material to the artist (i.e. you).

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    4. Re:man copyright is completely stupid by Pofy · · Score: 1

      >IANAL either, but I think that's called releasing your work to the public domain.

      How would you do that technically though? What part of copyright law handles it? I have tried to look in various copyright laws but can't seem to find such provisions. Further, who keeps track of such things? Were can one go and find which works has had their copyright "released"?`If there is no place, what prevents the copyright holder later from actually reclaiming it? How would it apply to other countries? And so on... What I think happens in such situations is basically the copyright holder giving anyone a licnese for all the rights of a copyright holder thus anyone can do anything they want. However, the work is still under copyright and the author is still the copyright holder. It would be interesting to know about what different countries' laws actually says about this though, perhaps some has special provisions for "releaseing" the copyright.

  17. Sad, but true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There isn't even one new distribution technology that the media hasn't hated, lobbied against, and eventually tried to control. From VCRs to DAT tape and HD-DVD, they've always kept wanting more.

    So I should hope that they don't believe that "making available" == "making copies" or we really will end up with things the way you describe :( Hopefully, even if they do go this foolish route, they'll *at least* have to require something like actively encouraging people to copy the files. But I wouldn't count on it.

    Oh well. I, for one, have lost all respect for copyright law already. They should just be glad I'm not a little younger and lot more foolish, or I'd be tempted to do something childish, like hack the RIAA's website with a picture of a hand giving them the finger and the words "COPY THIS!" under it :-)

  18. Copyright's real purpose.... by JCOTTON · · Score: 1

    ...is to encourage creation of new things, in literature and so on. It is not, necessarilly to make the creator rich. For example, the original copyright was issued to printers, so that they could print the Bible and be assured of some profit after all the labor was invested (with hand printing presses).

    IMHO, the powers that be should try to BALANCE the so-called rights of the IP creator with the good of the public. The creator of the IP do not have inalienable rights. The creator has rights (that are granted by the powers that be), because it is in the best intrest of the public. The bottom line is that all such rights (copyright and patent) are granted because it is in the general public interest to do so. If a certain copyright or patent would not benefit the public, then it should not be granted.

    Rubber Tires Never Break

  19. Lazy Lawyer by mandelbr0t · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    The first "Ask Slashdot" was somewhat interesting. Now I'm tired of you. Don't you do any real work?

    You know the law better than we do, and I'll bet you already know the answer. Libraries and Video Rental stores are all over the place. I'm guessing they're legal. If you lived in Canada, it's legal to have a "Shared Folder" accessible on the Internet. Does that constitute "making available?" I think you've deliberately asked the question in a vague way to promote pseudo-legal discussion, in much the same way that an artist plays their muse; at some point, something interesting appears. But it's all wrong and needs to be reworked by the "master". I, for one, don't think that's an appropriate way to create art. After all, it's the muse who came up with the original idea and the artist that gets paid for it.

    So please, NewYorkCountyLawyer, don't make me start going through the articles in Firehose again to vote down your incessant questioning. Once should have been enough for you.

    --
    "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
    1. Re:Lazy Lawyer by Stanistani · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sometimes you don't ask a question to find an answer...

      Sometimes you ask a question to make people think about the issue.

    2. Re:Lazy Lawyer by gfim · · Score: 1

      Firstly, this is not an "Ask Slashdot". Secondly, I'm sure that question was purely rhetorical - Mr. Beckerman isn't really interested in Slashdot's collective wisdom!!

      --
      Graham
    3. Re:Lazy Lawyer by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      This wasn't an "Ask Slashdot".

      Judge Kenneth M. Karas is the one that is going to decide this one.

      I was just providing the news that the 58-page transcript of the oral argument on this important issue is now available online.

      If you're interested read it, if not don't read it.

      The thing is, a lot of people are interested in it.

      For one thing about 25,000 people have been sued by the RIAA for "making available", and hundreds more are being sued every month, so they and their lawyers are interested.

      Secondly, the way the Court resolves the issue could have a major effect all across the internet. If "making available" copyrighted works on the internet constitutes a "distribution" under the Copyright Act, even though no copies have been distributed, and there has been no sale, license, or other transfer, it means web sites and blogs can't provide links to each other or to anything else on the internet which is copyrighted, which includes almost everything on the internet.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    4. Re:Lazy Lawyer by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Thank you, Stanistani.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    5. Re:Lazy Lawyer by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Well yes, Graham, you are right that this was a rhetorical question, it's an issue for Judge Karas. And yes, this wasn't an "Ask Slashdot".

      But I am always interested in Slashdot's collective wisdom.

      When I got roasted after my Slashdot interview, I left this comment, 'Twas Brillig:

      Thank you all for the interview, and for the rough and tumble comment period which followed it. I really enjoyed it. It was incredible fun.

      I've even learned an important new legal research method in the process. A lawyer can't just read a bunch of cases and statutes to know what the law is. He also needs to come to Slashdot, because if somebody here says something's the law, and it gets moderated to +5, then it's the law.

      Maybe lawyers don't know it, and Congress doesn't know it, and the judges don't know it, but sooner or later, I'm sure they'll come around.

      :)

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    6. Re:Lazy Lawyer by gfim · · Score: 1

      Hey, take that one step further and it's not a bad idea - moderation of laws. If a new law gets modded to -1, it gets taken off the books. :-)

      Good luck with your case(s).

      --
      Graham
    7. Re:Lazy Lawyer by slcdb · · Score: 1

      it means web sites and blogs can't provide links to each other or to anything else on the internet which is copyrighted
      When and where was this established (that "linking to" is the same as "making available")? IMHO (IANALBTW), they are not equivalent.

      I'd be very interested in knowing if it has been established, as a matter of law, that creating a hyperlink on the World Wide Web is considered "making available".

      In an earlier post (above) I laid out a counter argument against equating the two:

      Example time: Bob places a cracked copy of World of Warcraft on his web server. Google indexes Bob's website. Somebody does a Google search and Google produces a link to Bob's illegal copy of Wow. Google isn't making the illegal copy of WoW available. Bob is making it available on his website. Google merely refers to it.

      Here's an easy way to tell the difference: if Bob takes it off his webserver, it's no longer available even if Google still provides a link to where it was. Google clearly isn't making it available. Conversely, if Google removes their link, does that mean it is no longer available? Of course not, anyone could still get to it directly by typing the URL. Again, Google clearly isn't making it available.

      It doesn't get any simpler than that. Google doesn't control whether or not the linked item is available. Therefore Google isn't making it available.
      If it wouldn't be too much bother, I'd like to hear what is wrong with my line of reasoning. Especially from someone knowledgeable about the topic. If it's true that "linking to" is equal to "making available" in the eyes of the law, then... well, the Web is doomed.
      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    8. Re:Lazy Lawyer by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
      Secondly, the way the Court resolves the issue could have a major effect all across the internet. If "making available" copyrighted works on the internet constitutes a "distribution" under the Copyright Act, even though no copies have been distributed, and there has been no sale, license, or other transfer, it means web sites and blogs can't provide links to each other or to anything else on the internet which is copyrighted, which includes almost everything on the internet.

      Does this judge comprehend the full ramifications of his decision here? Seems to me another judge, in Texas, I believe, did decide he wasn't about to make the entire Internet illegal and ruled accordingly.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    9. Re:Lazy Lawyer by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Yes he does comprehend the full ramifications of his decision. For which I am grateful.

      The judges in Phoenix, Abilene, Waco, Fort Worth, and Brooklyn, simply "punted" -- i.e. they declined to decide the "making available" issue.

      Judge Karas promised he won't punt.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    10. Re:Lazy Lawyer by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Aside from that, someone up above makes an interesting point with respect to libraries, which fundamentally "make stuff available":

      What about when libraries lend *digital* materials, which by their very nature "make copies" as they are used by the library patron??

      And what about when schoolkids share textbooks?? Will we hear cries of "Don't be a book pirate -- buy your own copy!" ..??

      ISTM the question is a lot larger than just its impact on the internet.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    11. Re:Lazy Lawyer by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Libraries are not above the copyright law. They have to follow the rules like everyone else. They have special rules that are applicable to libraries, and to the extent those are inapplicable, the regular rules.

      In the Hotaling case, discussed in the oral argument, the 4th Circuit dispensed with the normal 'physical copy dissemination rule' for a library that deliberately failed to keep circulation records and admitted to having numerous pirated copies throughout its branches.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  20. Collapse? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

    Somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000-25,000 suits have been brought to date, with hundreds of new complaints filed monthly.

    What would happen if those hundreds of new complaints filed monthly decided to fight? Could the RIAA handle the load? Or would they collapse under their own weight?

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:Collapse? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They would collapse.

      In fact I'm not sure they aren't already collapsing, with just a few folks pushing back.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  21. Define "Make Available" by jhfry · · Score: 1

    If my computer is connected to the internet, then I am making copyrighted works available... is there a level of effort required? If so, how do you quantify the level of effort necessary? So I go to court and say, I didn't know I was sharing Britney's new collection of crap, how will they determine if what I did was intentional or not. How do you differentiate intentional and unintentional release of copyrighted works. I could easily prevent others from accessing such works from the average hacker... however my mother doesn't stand a chance... so can she get away with more than I can?

    I think in the world of computing, it is not reasonable to expect a user to have a certain amount of knowledge, and without such knowledge there is a great potential for copyright violations do to simple ignorance. And what counts as irresponsible behavior? Is it irresponsible to download files from a p2p network? Not if your intent is to download free works... but then what happens if your client indexes all of the media on your system and makes it available to the public without your knowledge. I know better, but most users do not.

    --
    Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    1. Re:Define "Make Available" by jhfry · · Score: 1

      I apologize for all of the terrible typos and whatnot in the parent... I was interrupted by my boss and had to send quickly.

      --
      Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    2. Re:Define "Make Available" by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      According to the RIAA it doesn't even matter if you have no idea that it is happening, as long as you're the person that paid for the internet access account.

      (That's not copyright law, that's just a bully trying to write the law of the jungle.)

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  22. Distribution versus "making available" by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    From the article:

    As an example, they argued: "Companies routinely include in their Web pages hyperlinks that enable persons to navigate easily to other sites throughout the Web by use of browser software. Indeed, the Web is a collection of hyperlinks. Even though the use of hyperlinks makes content located elsewhere available to a Web user, it does not constitute a distribution of that content under section 106(3)." This would imply that Google "makes available" all sorts of things via a search engine. If it's illegal to make copyright content available, Google could be held liable for linking to the vast quantities of content available on the web. This could also mean things like reading a book in public where others could see the words, or listening to music in public where others could hear.

    I realize the RIAA is focused on people "making available" copyright works via P2P networks, but the legal implications are pretty profound.
    1. Re:Distribution versus "making available" by redcane · · Score: 1

      Taking the argument "ad absurdium", life makes available all of these things. To prevent these things, we need to kill all life.

    2. Re:Distribution versus "making available" by mazarin5 · · Score: 1

      I read that the other way around; that google isn't liable, but they're removing any ambiguity about it.

      --
      Fnord.
  23. What part of COPY is confusing? by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Let's break the word down. We have "copy" meaning to make a duplicate of and "right" meaning the creator retains some rights regarding who can make and distribute those copies. What could copyright possibly have to do with making a work available? Libraries make works available. Has nothing to do with copyright infringement. Likewise Google makes works available but it just points out where they are. Are we seriously entertaining the notion that a figurative card catalog is copyright infringement?

    I understand people wanting to protect their copyrights. Despite some of the excesses that have arisen, copyright is a good thing. But this sort of lawsuit is just a waste of everyone's time, energy and money in addition to being a blatant power grab. I guess I shouldn't be amazed at how low some people will stoop for a dollar.

    1. Re:What part of COPY is confusing? by thenextpresident · · Score: 1

      Copy, in this context, doesn't mean "to duplicate".

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/copy

      1. an imitation, reproduction, or transcript of an original: a copy of a famous painting.
      2. one of the various examples or specimens of the same book, engraving, or the like.
      3. written matter intended to be reproduced in printed form: The editor sent the copy for the next issue to the printer.
      4. the text of a news story, advertisement, television commercial, etc., as distinguished from related visual material.

      The rights to the copy.

      --
      Jason Lotito
    2. Re:What part of COPY is confusing? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Agreed, the RIAA's theories have no resemblance to anything in copyright law.

      Note that Judge Karas pointed out to them that what they're asking him for appears nowhere in the Copyright Act.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    3. Re:What part of COPY is confusing? by slcdb · · Score: 1

      . What could copyright possibly have to do with making a work available? Libraries make works available. Has nothing to do with copyright infringement.
      The problem with this analogy is that libraries make works available for people to "check out". A work can be checked out from a library without anyone making any illegal copies.

      P2P file sharing software doesn't work that way. When you run Gnutella, or eDonkey (or whatever today's popular P2P copyright-infringing app is) you don't make works available for check out. You make them available for one purpose only: copying. There is no other use for those applications. That doesn't make the apps themselves illegal, since they could legitimately be used for sharing non-copyrighted works, or works for which the sharer has a license for distribution.

      Using those apps for hosting of copyrighted works for which the hoster has no license to distribute is clearly infringement. The hoster is making the works available for the specific and singular purpose of illegal copying. A completely different purpose than that of libraries.

      Go ahead and walk into a library, pick up a random book, and kindly ask the librarian if you may willy-nilly make a complete copy of the book because you would rather not have to pay to buy a copy at the bookstore. See what he/she says.

      Likewise Google makes works available but it just points out where they are. Are we seriously entertaining the notion that a figurative card catalog is copyright infringement?
      No. Nobody on the RIAA's side argued this. This is a red-herring that was raised by someone (can't remember who, but TFA mentions it) arguing on behalf of the defendant. No court has ever equated "linking to" with "making available"*. The linker is simply referring to a work "made available" by someone else.

      If Bob posts a cracked copy of World of Warcraft on his website, and Google indexes Bob's website, Google did not make the copy of WoW available. Bob made it available when he placed it on a web server where it can be accessed from the public Internet. Bob is the infringer, not Google.

      In any case, the RIAA's case doesn't require that "linking to" is the same as "making available" since P2P software doesn't just provide links to where works can be found, but actually hosts the works, and actively contributes to the infringement by transferring a copy of the work upon request.

      * At least, not that I'm aware of. And if any court has ruled this, then it's only a matter of time before X vs. Google goes to the Supreme Court where it would be reversed.
      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    4. Re:What part of COPY is confusing? by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Copy, in this context, doesn't mean "to duplicate".


      Sure it does. Granted I'm tremendously simplifying and there are a lot of details and nuances to the issue. But it really just comes down to who is allowed to copy a work (including derivative forms) and distribute said work. In its simplest form that is all copyright entails. No more, no less.
    5. Re:What part of COPY is confusing? by sjbe · · Score: 1

      A work can be checked out from a library without anyone making any illegal copies.


      Exactly my point. Also a mp3 file can be played from a remote computer without anyone making any illegal copies. I do this from my server all the time. Libraries also provide copy machines if we are going to be pedantic. The point is that there are legal and illegal uses for ALL technologies. Simply utilizing P2P software is not inherently illegal even though it frequently (alright usually) is used for purposes of copyright infringement. P2P software is not logically any different than an FTP site hosting those same files found via Google. More convenient perhaps but it's the same process. Should P2P or ftp sites be illegal? Of course not. Could it be abused for copyright infringement? Already has been. Is "making files available" knowing that they may be used for potential copyright infringement? No more so than a library allowing books to be borrowed. There are only two differences. The first is economic as there is almost no marginal cost to copying a computer file whereas copying a book or CD has significantly higher economic cost. The second is accountability in that a library has your name and address and could provide this to the legal authorities under appropriate circumstances whereas most P2P system have little/no accountability controls. Otherwise the principles at stake are exactly the same in either case.

      The problem as I see it is that copyright law has permitted a relatively small group of companies to control distribution for an entire class of media. These companies have profited and while you can argue the ethics of their behavior, the law generally permits them to do what they do. But the world has changed. Authors, muscicians, book publishers, the RIAA members and the MPAA members made their business models primarily on selling discrete bits of paper and plastic rather than licensing rights. That works ok in a world where distribution has a tangible cost but technology has undercut that business model and copyright hasn't yet adjusted to that new reality. We're still writing the rules for the digital age. Should the new rules be written to favor these industry cartels or some other group? That's what this whole discussion is about. No one should be surprised at their behavior but if you feel strongly about it support those organizations (like the EFF) who are trying to get sensible rules written.
    6. Re:What part of COPY is confusing? by slcdb · · Score: 1

      Also a mp3 file can be played from a remote computer without anyone making any illegal copies.
      Only if there is a system in place to prevent two remote computers from playing the same song at the same time. Otherwise, you've effectively made two (or more) copies. No P2P software does this right now. So, no, using a computer and P2P is not like checking a book out of a library.

      Someone could make P2P software that operates more like a library (where, if a song is checked out, it must be checked back in before someone else can listen) and possibly legally get away with it. But such P2P software would not be useful for piracy, so it wouldn't become popular :)

      Is "making files available" knowing that they may be used for potential copyright infringement? No more so than a library allowing books to be borrowed.
      And since P2P software doesn't operate like a library, liability, as far as infringement is concerned, is different with P2P than it is with a library. Again, the library makes books available for check out. Can they potentially be copied? Sure they can. But most of the time they don't, because it's possible to check out a book, read it, and check it back in without copying it. In the world of P2P, you CAN'T (yet) check out a song, listen to it, and then check it back in, all without making a copy. You MUST make a copy just to use P2P. Therein lies the difference.
      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
  24. Melodrama by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Whichever way the ruling goes it will have a large impact across the Internet."

    Perhaps this should have read,

    "Whichever way the ruling goes it will have a large impact across the Internet - for those people living in the US"

    Last I heard, the Inet is worldwide. Go figure.

  25. What is a room with 1 copy machine and 1 book by jbossvi · · Score: 1

    If the courthouse has a copy machine and there is a copyrighted book next to it. Does that make the courthouse liable under the "Making Availible". After all anyone could start making copies.

    1. Re:What is a room with 1 copy machine and 1 book by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Yes in the RIAA's misguided view of things.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  26. Analogy to Export Restrictions by scruffy · · Score: 1

    As a possibly useful analogy, something you can download from a web site is subject to export restrictions (http://www.bis.doc.gov/licensing/exportingbasics. htm) whether it is actually downloaded or not. The analogy then is that making copies available over the internet is subject to copyright restrictions, whether copies are made or not.

  27. Revolution... or revolutionary? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

    The problem here is we are looking at vast areas of potential massive destruction in the economy. Sure, if you are interested in getting stuff for free, this is a great time to be alive. If you work for any company involved in the distribution - for profit - of materials that can be in digital form, you should be concerned. Concerned to the point of getting a different job.

    Let's say you work for a book publisher. Today it is impractical to redistribute a book that you buy in a book store. And books in digital form aren't generally sold or not sold without some kind of protection. This is likely to change. With today's attitudes about copying and even publishing, the big-name authors are likely to skip the book publishers completely. Unknown authors aren't going to have much of a chance except giving their stuff away on myspace. Better kiss that job at the publisher goodbye.

    Oh, and the ad agency that the book publisher uses is going down the tubes as well. You see, individual authors aren't going to have the money to pay for advertising on the same scale. Any other services for the publisher are going to go down with them - ink, paper, financial services, managing the employee's 401K plan, and so on and so forth. Huge ripple effects.

    Similar things will happen with music and movies. It is almost certainly too late to put the genie back in the bottle. We have almost a generation that believes respecting copyright is just somehow "wrong". And today, copyright is nothing more than a question of respect.

    Yes, we are going to see battles like this, trying to enforce existing laws with stiffer and stiffer penalties. But the Internet is pretty much consequences-free. There might be a few people that get caught, but compare this to the millions or hundreds of millions of people that aren't getting caught. It will become like speeding where enforcement is on alternate Tuesdays for a quota and ignored the rest of the time. People get caught, but everyone speeds no matter what.

    I think with the current trends we are likely to see more and more "enforcement" and less and less revenue. The "music business" is just about ready to throw in the towel - iTunes will still sell stuff to people that think that is the only way to put music in their iPod but the rest will just copy for free.

    The question that needs to be asked is where will all those people work when Sony, EMI, BMG and others close their doors? We're not talking about "artists" but programmers, accountants and secretaries. The guy packing boxes in the shipping department. All of these people are going to be doing something else soon.

    1. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by Applekid · · Score: 1

      All of these people are going to be doing something else soon.

      So, you're admitting that piracy costs people's jobs?

      Not that I'm agreeing, just want to confirm what I took from your post is what you intended to send.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    2. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by CharlesDonHall · · Score: 1

      The question that needs to be asked is where will all those people work when Sony, EMI, BMG and others close their doors? We're not talking about "artists" but programmers, accountants and secretaries. The guy packing boxes in the shipping department. All of these people are going to be doing something else soon.

      The root of the problem is that those companies have a business model that involves charging $12.99 for a dime's worth of music. That's not sustainable, and sooner or later they're going to have to move to a more realistic pricing structure. When that happens, yes, people will lose their jobs.

      But the lost profits don't just flushed down a toilet somewhere. Every time a consumer pays 10 cents to download an album, she has an extra $12.89 to spend on something else...maybe the money gets spent at a restaurant, or saved up for a vacation. So those industries will grow, and they'll have to hire more programmers, accountants, and secretaries to handle the extra business.

    3. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but this sounds a lot like RIAA trolling to me. I notice that you have a history of putting up such posts.

      The purposes of the copyright laws are NOT vindicated by bringing frivolous cases based on junk science and no evidence. See amicus brief of American Civil Liberties Union, Public Citizen, Electronic Frontier Foundation, American Association of Law Libraries, and ACLU Foundation of Oklahoma in Capitol v. Foster.

      If the big 4 record labels are unable to compete, their employees will lose their jobs, and no doubt seek employment among their more successful competitors in the digital music field, who are more adept at listening to -- as opposed to bring lawsuits against -- their customers.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    4. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      There is nothing remotely resembling "copyright piracy" in any of the cases the RIAA has brought against consumers. You are misusing the term.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    5. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by Anonymous+Curmudgeon · · Score: 1

      cdguru wrote:
      Let's say you work for a book publisher. Today it is impractical to redistribute a book that you buy in a book store. And books in digital form aren't generally sold or not sold without some kind of protection.

      Since you mentioned books, if you read sci-fi/fantasy, you might be interested in www.webscriptions.net. They sell electronic copies of books in convenient, DRM-free formats. You can also find the first few chapters or even entire books (with the author's permission) free of charge at the Baen books free library. If you like the author's writing, they likely have other books you can buy (in electronic or paper form). I appreciate being treated like a responsible adult by these authors and publishers, and have spent a fair amount, buying books by authors I normally wouldn't have tried.

      I know some musicians are trying the same thing (They Might Be Giants, IIRC). I think the recording labels could learn a few lessons from them. Most likely, they'll continue sueing their customers, though.

    6. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, you say this "automobile" will make my buggy whip business completely obsolete?

    7. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by Score+Whore · · Score: 1

      There is nothing remotely resembling "copyright piracy" in any of the cases the RIAA has brought against consumers.


      Only because you will disingeniously define consumer as someone who fits your argument and everyone who doesn't fit your argument you will define as a non-consumer. The majority of the people who have been served by the RIAA have uploaded numerous copywritten works. The fact that some people are so ignorant of what goes on in their homes, and on the services (cable/dsl/etc) they subscribe to, that they are truly dumbfounded when they are caught up in the net doesn't validate your argument that consumers are not committing massive numbers of copyright violations.
    8. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by senatorpjt · · Score: 1

      If you work for any company involved in the distribution - for profit - of materials that can be in digital form, you should be concerned. Concerned to the point of getting a different job.

      I wish I had a longer comment, but all I can really come up with is "So what?" and "Tough shit." People get laid off all the time.

    9. Re:Revolution... or revolutionary? by wall0159 · · Score: 1

      You describe "massive destruction in the economy", but I think what you really mean is "massive change to the economy". This is known as a disruptive technology, and this isn't the first time it's occured. Unfortunately, one can't legislate around it.

      Yes, it seems likely that there'll be greater decentralisation of the content production business, but that's not really due to piracy, but is rather the result of lower cost of entry to the market, and greater ease of distribution (facilitated by digital networks).

      Piracy is made the scapegoat because the big content distributers cannot adapt to the new technologies that are arising, because there is no place for them any more - at least not with their present size and power. They're using piracy to justify their last attempts at maintaing their position (lawsuits, legislation, etc), much like a drowning man may stand on his comrades shoulders...

  28. Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by CodeShark · · Score: 1
    Just read the whole darn set of arguments, and as an author I can argue this both ways, but I don't think either set of lawyers did a stellar job addressing the core issue.
    On the plaintiff side, they quote and quote and quote and quote -- but don't deal with the real issue which is that the RIAA et. al seem to say "if I tell you where something is located, I am guilty of copyright infringement because I am making it available". They mention child-pornography as relevant -- but conveniently ignore the fact that to even own child-pornography under any circumstance is illegal, where owning music is legal -- but only if the music was obtained through legal means.


    My take on this is based on the copyright's fair use doctrine -- as a copyrighted author I have the exclusive right to control everything about my work -- up to the point where someone has "fair use rights", such as quoting from my work in another study, etc. etc. [Instead of music, for example, let's assume it was a novel I wrote...] What if the quote was used within the concept of "fair use", but in a hyperlink to an illegal copy of the work, and the linking author didn't know that it wasn't a legal copy? Was the fair user guilty of copyright infringement because they inadvertently made my illegally copied work available?


    On the piracy/law-breaking side though, let's say that someone knowingly "makes available" a copy of my work in a distributable manner that I did not authorize [AKA the Internet]. My belief is that they just infringed my copyright. Suppose however, that someone ten or eleven links down the chain says "hey, there's this great story at ________________ and has no idea (from an indexed title, etc.) whether or not the available copy is legally authorized or not. Sort of like a book buyer who buys a book in good faith from a reputable seller, not knowing that it is a fourth or fifth generation illegal copy, reads it, sells it to another used book store, which is where I find it. Who infringed the copyright? the initial bookstore, the buyer, the buyer when he sold, the second used book store?

    Nope. The person I can sue is the person who originally created the illegal copy, made it available for distribution, and then distributed it, or the person who originally and knowingly "bought" or accepted the illegal copy. But I have to show the point of origin, and with file sharing networks and the multiplicity of perfect copies, that is almost impossible to do. Which is where this whole thing gets muddied. Obviously the copyright has been infringed -- but without a single definable point of origin, a specific instance of illegal copying and publication (AKA making available), etc. there just doesn't seem to be a provable case.


    Any thoughts?

    --
    ...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
    1. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      On the piracy/law-breaking side though, let's say that someone knowingly "makes available" a copy of my work in a distributable manner that I did not authorize [AKA the Internet]. My belief is that they just infringed my copyright.

      Well, as another (wannabe) writer, I would argue that's not entirely correct. If someone makes my work available for download, they don't violate copyright until their software copies my work and sends it to someone else, thus actually performing the act of distribution. Up to that point, it's merely advertisement.

      The problem, in this case, is that the RIAA has no proof of actual distribution. All they have is evidence that the materials were "made available", and so they're stuck trying to prove that such an act constitutes "distribution".

    2. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by slcdb · · Score: 1

      What if the quote was used within the concept of "fair use", but in a hyperlink to an illegal copy of the work, and the linking author didn't know that it wasn't a legal copy? Was the fair user guilty of copyright infringement because they inadvertently made my illegally copied work available?
      No, because linking to the copyrighted work does not constitute "making available". On the Web, something is made available at the point at which the work in question is put onto a web server where it can be accessed from the public Internet. In your example, the person that placed the copyrighted work on the web server that hosts the work is the infringer. The linker isn't making anything available, he/she simply refers to something "made available" by someone else.

      I'm not aware of any ruling that has established that merely "linking to" equates with "making available". And I doubt that it will ever happen (Google et. al. wouldn't survive and the entire usefulness of the web would go down the toilet).
      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    3. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      After reading what you just wrote, I can't believe you think you could have done a better job than I did.

      Even the RIAA's lawyer did a better job than you did, and he's operating under a major disadvantage: a lack of familiarity with copyright law.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    4. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by swilver · · Score: 1

      In your example, the person that placed the copyrighted work on the web server that hosts the work is the infringer.
      Actually, that feels the wrong way around. If I make available some copyrighted material on my web server, then die of some mysterious illness, leaving the web server running, then I think that the one downloading the material is the one infringing -- so neither linking to content or making it available is violating copyright.

      If I hadn't died, I'm still not the one actively making the copy, technically the copy is being "created" slowly on the downloading side (well technically the thing is copied thousands of times locally, and at every hop (calculating CRC's, moving it to buffers, etc etc.., but that's the digital world... copyright just doesn't work there).

    5. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You keep repeating this mantra:

      "I'm not aware of any ruling that has established that merely "linking to" equates with "making available".

      Please listen carefully to what I am about to tell you.

      I have an important announcement to make.

      There is no such thing as "making available" in the Copyright Act.

      So why on earth would there be cases that discuss what is or isn't "making available"?

      Didn't you read the briefs? Didn't you read the argument, especially the part where the Judge points out to the RIAA lawyer that there's no such thing as "making available" in the Copyright Act?

      Don't you know that the only litigant anyone has ever seen that thinks that merely "making available" is a copyright infringement is the RIAA?

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    6. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by slcdb · · Score: 1

      I'm not making an argument that "making available" does constitute copyright infringement. I'm just saying that, assuming the RIAA wins this, hyperlinking doesn't necessarily equate to "making available". In which case, if the RIAA does win, it doesn't automatically mean that Google and everyone else on the Web is infringing just because they link to copyrighted content.

      Whether or not "making available == infringement" has no bearing on the "linking == making available" argument.

      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    7. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by slcdb · · Score: 1

      If I make available some copyrighted material on my web server, then die of some mysterious illness, leaving the web server running, then I think that the one downloading the material is the one infringing -- so neither linking to content or making it available is violating copyright.
      Fair enough, I've been making the assumption that "making available" does in fact amount to infringement. But my main argument is that linking does not equate to "making available", whether or not "making available" is infringement.

      All I'm saying is that Google and the rest of the Intarweb should be safe if the RIAA wins this case. The ability to safely link to copyrighted material on the Web shouldn't hinge on the outcome of this case.
      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    8. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
      No, because linking to the copyrighted work does not constitute "making available".

      Linking to does equate to Making Available, witness the cases against web-sites linking to deCSS.

      However, Making Available does not equate to Copyright Infringement.

      --
      "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    9. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by slcdb · · Score: 1

      Sorry to double reply, but as I read other posts, more thoughts come to my mind.

      I'm not so sure that the "making available" issue is so clear cut that we can simply dismiss the RIAA's argument out of hand, because the Copyright Act never mentions "making available".

      What if I post, word for word, the entire text of the latest Harry Potter book on my website. According to the "actual distribution" infringement theory, J.K Rowling couldn't sue me for infringement unless she can prove that some specific instance of someone (other than herself or an agent of hers) downloading and reading the book has occurred. She can write cease and desist letters all she wants, but I'll keep my website operating because, hey, she can't prove anyone else has actually read my web page.

      That doesn't sound right to me. Clearly, by making the text of the book available on my website, I'm infringing. No reasonable person would question that. Yet, my only act was to make the text available. How can I infringe if "making available" isn't mentioned anywhere in the Copyright Act? It's not that simple, I'm afraid. And making other forms of media available, be it movies, music, or software, should be no different.

      This issue isn't cut and dry, as you claim it is, just because the Copyright Act never mentions "making available". You need a more convincing argument.

      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    10. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by slcdb · · Score: 1

      Linking to DeCSS is a whole different animal. DeCSS wasn't simply a copyrighted work. It was a device that was outright illegal. It's existence alone was illegal. And it was covered by a part of law (the DMCA) distinct from the Copyright Act.

      Asking, "Is it legal to link to DeCSS?" is more like asing, "Is it legal to link to child porn?" than it is like asking, "Is it legal to link to a Britney Spears song?"

      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    11. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Hardly. DeCSS was GPL'd computer software, with the minor provision that the content of the software was a publicly known trade secret, whatever that really means. It wasn't a device, it was an algorithm that would describe how to decrypt the CSS encryption found on the data stream produced by content conforming to the DVD-Video specification.

      This wouldn't even be like a GPL'd MP3 player, where at least there is a patent issue that would potentially prevent you from redistributing the software, although it is certainly in the same realm of IP issue. And the MP3 player comparison is about as close to what happened with DeCSS as you can get otherwise.

      Perhaps another analogy would be is it legal to have a link to top secret military documents that have been previously published in the New York Times that shows England was behind the 9/11 attacks? The NYT would be in hot legal trouble, perhaps, but I don't think the other 2000 media websites that would copy the information and link to the NYT would be guilty of "spilling the beans" about the documents. Yet this is precisely what happened to those who spread knowledge about DeCSS and had the links.

    12. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as "making available" in the Copyright Act.

      No, but there is a such thing as "perform[ing] the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission". If the RIAA had sued for public performance by digital audio transmission, would it have stated a legitimate complaint?

      It seems to me public performance is what the RIAA should have been suing over. Of course in the case of certain public performances of sound recordings there is a statutory license available, so the damages of the lawsuit would be more limited.

    13. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      They wouldn't have any basis for alleging a public performance, either.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    14. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Under the facts you described you made an unauthorized copy which is a flagrant copyright violation.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    15. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      "Mizzone takes a screenshot, downloads a few of the songs and, through another proprietary process, determines the dynamic IP address assigned to the screenshot." So, you seem to agree that the files are being downloaded. Aren't they therefore being "transmit[ted] or otherwise communicate[d]"? Isn't this transmission to the public? Are you saying that the transmission isn't being made by the defendant, even though the defendant instructed his computer to make the transmission?

      If this doesn't constitute copying, distribution, or public performance, then haven't you basically nullified copyright law for the purposes of the Internet? There's no way in the world the courts are going to go for that.

    16. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by CodeShark · · Score: 1
      That's the exact issue. Think about it in the paper world, using my theoretical novel as an example, and assume I "self published" it, e.g. paid for the printing, etc. and that it automagically going to be so popular that I don't need to spend another dime promoting it.

      The act of printing it, making it available for distribution, and authorizing the bookstore to collect revenues and send a percentage to me are all part of my rights as the copyright holder. If anyone else copies the book (printing it) places it in a store for distribution, etc. without my authorization -- or getting my permission and sending me my percentage -- [which is what the RIAA is after anyway....] can be sued for violating the copyright act.

      Analagously, on the web, I am the only one authorized to place copies available for distribution, and the intentional placement for availability of an unauthorized paper copy of information in a library has been determined by the courts to be infringing, even if the paper copy is never checked out.

      My problem with this court case is that the plaintiff's argument seems to be "well, there are these copies (which could be legal for me if I bought the CDs, etc.) that file sharing networks "make available", ergo the defendant has violated the law. That's like saying that if I put up a great big boom box on a playground and start playing music that I like to listen to -- with my own CDs, and am not getting paid for it -- and all of the kids start to dance without paying for a copy themselves, I'm infringing.

      But this is also where the 'Net muddies things, because in the real world, an object has to change hands for an exchange (and therefore a two-person transaction) to be valid, where in the 'net, nothing "real" has to change hands -- just a bunch of 1's and 0's that can be selectively rebroadcast to create music, DVD video, etc. -- so making the collection of 1's and 0's available in a copyable format does facilitate illegal activity. And knowingly contributing to an illegal activity is in fact grounds for civil and criminal actions here in the US. Odd stuff, this.

      --
      ...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
    17. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Not really, if you're familiar with copyright law. There are SIX rights described in Sec. 106. The "distribution" right is only one of them. It is very specifically defined. And the courts have repeatedly held, through a long line of cases, that there must be a PHYSICAL DISSEMINATION OF ACTUAL COPIES before the DISTRIBUTION right is implicated (along with other requirements such as sale, license, transfer, etc., and dissemination of the copies to the public).

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    18. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Good info -- secondary question as a sanity check...


      Once somebody copies the "made available" information (i.e. the music file, novel, or whatever), once a copy is made (saved to another computer) both the person who did the copying and the person who made the copy available are both infringing, correct? If so, what would that mean about the Google cache system, which grabs the whole page and not just indexed little bits (which presumably would be governed by fair use)? Presumably if I copy the cahced web page to my computer both myself and google would be liable at that point?

    19. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by slcdb · · Score: 1

      Hold on there. Why is making an electronic copy of a book a flagrant violation, yet making an electronic copy of a song not?

      It sounds like you are saying this:

      Book Scenario:
          1) I make a copy of the book (scanned with OCR) <-- infringement
          2) I "make available" the copy of the book on the Web <-- not infringement

      Song Scenario:
          1) I make a copy of a song (ripped from CD) <-- not infringement (fair use?)
          2) I "make available" the copy of the song on the web <-- not infringement

      Why is making the copy of the song not infringement, but the making of the copy of the book is? Are you saying that ripping the CD in order to transfer it to a different medium is fair use, but that copying the book to transfer it to electronic form is not fair use? It sounds like that is what you are implying. Where in copyright law are books excluded from this type of fair use?

      I think you are only trying to fool yourself. If I made the copy of the book available on a private web server, where only I could read it, then that would likely be considered fair use. Perhaps I would do such a thing so that I can read my book from anywhere without having to tote it around (I like to travel light).

      It seems pretty clear that the infringement occurs when the book is made available for public viewing. Same goes for music.

      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    20. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by slcdb · · Score: 1

      That's like saying that if I put up a great big boom box on a playground and start playing music that I like to listen to -- with my own CDs, and am not getting paid for it -- and all of the kids start to dance without paying for a copy themselves, I'm infringing.
      No, it's not like that at all, because when you play your boombox for everyone to hear, no copies of the music have been made for which the RIAA hasn't been paid. If the kids, instead of just dancing, used audio recording equipment to make a copy of the music as it's being played from your boombox, then a copy has been made and the kids doing the recording have infringed.

      In the world of P2P music file sharing, there is no way for anyone to listen to your virtual "boombox" without them making a copy first. Hence, sharing copyrighted music through P2P MUST involve infringement.

      When playing music through a boombox, there doesn't HAVE to be infringement. People can just listen without making a copy.
      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    21. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by slcdb · · Score: 1

      Whatever your opinion of DeCSS is, is irrelevant. The judges in the 2600 case ruled that DeCSS was a "circumvention device" as defined under the DMCA. This is not my opinion, but a court's ruling. We can all disagree about their decision, but that doesn't change the implications of that decision.

      Based upon the decision that DeCSS was a circumvention device, the judge's went a step further to say that making a link to DeCSS was trafficking in something illegal, because they are helping others to access an illegal device. Their finding hinged on the fact that DeCSS is intrinsically illegal.

      Your newspaper analogy is not the same thing. Sensitive military secrets are not intrinsically illegal. The divulging of military secrets is illegal. Ergo, whoever "spilled the beans" is guilty of leaking military secrets. They are not, however, guilty of trafficking in illegal materials as the secrets themselves are not an illegal item.

      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    22. Re:Interesting stuff... from an author's view. by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I would have to say that the concept of a trade secret also applies here, where the act of divulging a trade secret is illegal, and the rest is merely trying to stuff the genie back into the bottle.

      The problem here was that the prosecution couldn't prove that the defendant had knowledge of the trade secret (in this case the CSS algorithm) that came from anybody in the "DVD Consortium" that created the algorithm in the first place. Instead it was a pure reverse engineering effort from the openly (and publicly) available binary executables.

      Keep in mind this happened pre-DCMA as well.

      One of the ways that the "genie" was "stuffed back into the bottle" was to describe the software as a device, just as you have mentioned. In that manner, certain laws that specified sealed devices could help protect these trade secrets.

      Normally a trade secret is a manufacturing process or something that helps give you a distinct competitive advantage over a competitor, and is known only by employees or contractors working for the company. The analogy to a military secret is almost identical here, and indeed the attitude within larger corporations is to classify things as "confidental" or even "eyes-only" or other similar comparable terms that also involve document security and even criminal background checks to see if an employee is leaking documents of this nature.

      The reason why the DVD Consortium (now DVD Forum) decided to use the trade secret defense instead of simply patenting the CSS algorithm is because they would have been required to publish the algorithm as a part of the patent application. It turned out that it was an embarrassingly simply algorithm to reverse in terms of actually protecting optical disc content from "unauthorized access". In hindsight they would have been much better off had it been patented, as they would have been able to stop the massive distribution of the algorithm in actual software (and revoked the GPL at the same time). Instead, the software is still widely available, published in newspapers, billboards, radio commercials, and other places as proof that it is hardly a secret. Having people wear T-shirts with the software into the various hearings about it made it very difficult to prove that it really was a secret as well.

      As far as I know, only the 2600 magazine was blocked from using the link to the DeCSS software, and I don't know of a single other court that has used this ruling as preceedence, showing the legal holes in this judge's opinion.

  29. Making available in the Internet age by MassEnergySpaceTime · · Score: 1

    If they find that "making available" violates the distribution rights of copyright laws, then we could be in big trouble, because ANYONE connected to the Internet can easily become a distributor simply by making a shared folder and dropping a few files in there. That means there could easily be millions and millions of people breaking the law for being illegal distributors.

    That's somewhat like setting the freeway speed limit to 45mph when every driver on the freeway safely and easily drives at 65mph. Such a strict speed limit automatically classifies everyone as breaking the law.

    --
    Respect the laws of physics, for the laws of physics have no respect for you.
  30. Is it? by Spazmania · · Score: 1

    Is it shoplifting if you merely conceal that expensive jewelry in your purse and head for the exit or do you have to walk all the way out of the store first?

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you try it out in an store you will notice that the security guards will only jump on you the moment you leave the store.

  31. Wrong was of drawing the line.... by cfulmer · · Score: 1

    So, let's say I make 100 copies of a CD (ignoring the fact that doing this is already infringement), put them on a table outside the local grocery store and then walk away. Is this distribution? Or, do I need to actually go through the step of physically handing them to people?

    The answer is to the question posed in the OP is "Sometimes, making available is distribution." And, sometimes it's not. It turns on the specific facts of the case.

    If I had to make a call, I'd say that making it available through bittorrent is distribution, but just putting it on a shared folder is not (unless I expect others to copy from there.) At one level, they're both just ways of sharing files. But, a lot more people will see your bittorrent site than will see your shared folder.

    1. Re:Wrong was of drawing the line.... by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      So, let's say I make 100 copies of a CD (ignoring the fact that doing this is already infringement), put them on a table outside the local grocery store and then walk away. Is this distribution? Or, do I need to actually go through the step of physically handing them to people?

      This isn't a good analogy though, because the person making the copies is the downloader. A closer analogy would be if you just left your one copy of a CD on a table outside the local grocery store, with a sign saying "make free copies here", and then the RIAA hired someone to take the CD, make a copy, and then put it back.

  32. Appealable orders by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

    While it is true that an appeal by the RIAA is likely if Ms. Barker's motion is granted, and the case is dismissed, the converse is not also true. If the dismissal motion is denied, the order denying it would not be an appealable order in federal practice, so Ms. Barker would be stuck with it until the case is finally concluded.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  33. Well... by mark-t · · Score: 1
    If it's the original work that you are making available, then no... of course not.

    If what one is making available is a copy of the original work, then it's not copyright infringement to make it available if you had permission from the copyright holder to make copies for non-personal use, and if there were any constraints imposed on the number and form of copies permitted, then those constraints must be adhered to as well. Note that in some cases, infringement may be considered to have occurred as soon as you make the copy, before you even make it available (ie, recording a movie with your camcorder or cell phone while in a theatre).

    Now that said, bear in mind that computer files are almost always copies of something.

    Draw your own conclusions.

  34. Limewire by Darth+Cider · · Score: 1

    When Limewire is installed, sharing of one's iTunes library is active by default. This can't be turned off without starting up the program and thereby "making available" any copyrighted music in the iTunes library. I didn't notice this until an upload of my music had begun, making me culpable as a copyright infringer. Rather than being a problem just with Limewire, this illustrates how dangerous the "making available" extension of copyright would be. Simply showing one's files to the world by means of software that could also share them would make one a criminal.

  35. Libraries by mschuyler · · Score: 1

    Several people posting here have made the point that libraries are proof that "making available" does not infringe on copyright. Many here might not know that libraries and publishers have historically had an uneasy relationship, but let's leave that for next. Libraries do not (by and large) "copy" material. They buy a legal copy and distribute it more than once. It's the same copy read by many readers. That's not quite the same thing as making a full copy and winding up with two copies instead of one.
        In meat-space, this is not cost effective. Even though you have a copy machine right there, to copy each page of a 300 page book at a dime a copy leaves you with 300 unbound pages which exceed 'fair use' guidelines. It's messy and slow, plus the "copy" is not of the same quality as the original. With digital copies, of course, everything changes.
        With periodical articles, the issue is different because a typical article is easily copied for a few cents. In these cases libraries (are supposed to) go through the Copyright Clearance Center which collects a fee to be paid to the publisher for the use of that article. This is part of the Interlibrary Loan process, particularly in academic libraries. In the case of online articles that fee is incorporated into the annual fee libraries pay to aggregators such as Infotrac and Proquest. My library, for example, pays over $100,000 per year in annual access fees to online content. This content is then licensed to the residents of my county for their use. In this model, publishers get paid. Most publishers allow online access, but some of them license their work for "in library use only." Example: Some genealogy material that is also sold directly to the consumer, and car repair manuals.
        Now, as to the uneasy relationship, publishers and authors have ALWAYS resented that libraries ae institutionalized enough to avoid royalties on "checking out" material more than once. Every once in awhile someone publishes the circulation statistics to shock authors when they do the math and figure they are owed a royalty for every check out. However, libraries are also responsible for so many sales to publishers that it doesn't make sense for publishers to push the issue. When large libraries buy "a" title, they buy several hundred copies. Libraries alone could put Harry Potter on the bestseller lists just on the copies they buy. Also, it is mostly libraries which are responsible for backlist sales for publishers after the public has forgotten they published the book. (And, incidentally, libraries do get bookstore discounts for most purchases, which hovers near 45% for trade books, maybe 10% at best for academic titles.)
        The point has also been made that this copyright stuff is just for the USA. Right, and some places it gets even more interesting. As I understand it, Australia has a scheme known as the "public lending right" (Any Australians who know about this please jump in and clarify if I get it wrong!) There they figure out how many copies of books published in Australia are in libraries, perform some sort of calculation, and the government pays the publishers.

    --
    How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
  36. Magical "Right of First Sale" by VidEdit · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is something magical in libraries. It is called the "right of first sale" or "first purchase." This is the one and only thing that allows the libraries, used bookstores and used record stores. This basic tenet of American copyright law says that when you buy a physical copy of a copyrighted work you can do what you want with that copy without needing authorization from the copyright holder, including re-sell it.

    Without "first purchase," all libraries, used bookstores, used record stores, video rental stores, etc. would have to separately negotiate the right to lend, resell or rent each and every copyrighted work and pay royalties--and that's assuming they could even find the rights holders. There would be no libraries. The copyright industry doesn't like the secondary market that "first purchase" allows because it means that multiple people can enjoy a copy of a book or video. "First purchase" also interferes with their ability to create scarcity in the market which lets them raise prices. Currently the copyright industry is working on making your "first purchase" rights null by using DRM to make exercising your rights technologically impossible. For instance, legally you may have a right to re-sell a song you have purchased on iTunes (Apple has even admitted it to CNet) but they will not make it possible to transfer a song technologically.

    --
    1. Re:Magical "Right of First Sale" by WrongDecision · · Score: 1

      So can I start my own library? Does the Distributed Library Project qualify as a "public library" under the copyright laws?

    2. Re:Magical "Right of First Sale" by VidEdit · · Score: 1

      I don't know if there is much codification of "public library" in the copyright code. INAL. But I believe you are completely free to start your own library and even charge money for book renta. You would have to buy legitimate physical copies of the books. That and projects like the Distributed Library Project would seem to clearly fall under your rights of ownership of a physical copy. However, right of first sale doesn't apply in the same way to computer software or musical works as it does to books.

      --
    3. Re:Magical "Right of First Sale" by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      However, right of first sale doesn't apply in the same way to computer software or musical works as it does to books. Then how is my local public library able to offer computer software and musical works?
      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    4. Re:Magical "Right of First Sale" by VidEdit · · Score: 1

      "Then how is my local public library able to offer computer software and musical works?"

      I'm not sure if they are legally allowed to offer software except for devices with embedded software and video game cartridges.. However, non-profit libraries and educational institutions do have a specific exemption to the exemption of first sale when it comes to phonorecordings.

      http://www2.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/usc_sec_17_0 0000109----000-.html

      "Nothing in the preceding sentence shall apply to the rental, lease, or lending of a phonorecord for nonprofit purposes by a nonprofit library or nonprofit educational institution. The transfer of possession of a lawfully made copy of a computer program by a nonprofit educational institution to another nonprofit educational institution or to faculty, staff, and students does not constitute rental, lease, or lending for direct or indirect commercial purposes under this subsection."

      INAL

      --
  37. links by tsoldrin · · Score: 1

    Isn't linking to something 'making available' ? It seems like it would be, by definition. How the hell is that going to work? On the news section of here: http://documentaries.ws/ I import headlines from various rss feeds - I can understand how a wholesale copy and paste of an entire article might infringe copyright, but now will it be just linking too!? Is there no fair use?

    1. Re:links by slcdb · · Score: 1

      Isn't linking to something 'making available' ? It seems like it would be, by definition.
      Why? I just don't see that connection, and would like to hear a clear line of reasoning that leads to that conclusion.

      I've said it in other posts already, but I'll say it again. The linker isn't making anything available. The linker is simply referring to something made available by someone else.

      Example time: Bob places a cracked copy of World of Warcraft on his web server. Google indexes Bob's website. Somebody does a Google search and Google produces a link to Bob's illegal copy of Wow. Google isn't making the illegal copy of WoW available. Bob is making it available on his website. Google merely refers to it.

      Here's an easy way to tell the difference: if Bob takes it off his webserver, it's no longer available even if Google still provides a link to where it was. Google clearly isn't making it available. Conversely, if Google removes their link, does that mean it is no longer available? Of course not, anyone could still get to it directly by typing the URL. Again, Google clearly isn't making it available.

      It doesn't get any simpler than that. Google doesn't control whether or not the linked item is available. Therefore Google isn't making it available.
      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
  38. compare to real world by dirk · · Score: 1

    IF I were to take porn and alcohol and leave it sitting in a high school every day, would I be arrested for contributing to the delinquency of minors? I don't know who picked up the stuff (if anyone), all I know is I leave it someplace and the next day it is gone. I think I would get busted in a heartbeat for that. So why should this be different. Assuming they are referring to people who make files available on purpose (and this is a big distinction), the intent is clearly to distribute files they don't have the rights to distribute. IF you purposely share something on the internet and allow users access to it, you are trying to distribute it. Just because you picked a crappy file no one wants doesn't mean you weren't distributing it. It just means no one took you up on your distribution. If I try and hand out flyers and no one takes one from me, I am still distributing flyers.

    --

    "Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
  39. Re:Lazy Lawyer - DeCSS by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
    I'd be very interested in knowing if it has been established, as a matter of law, that creating a hyperlink on the World Wide Web is considered "making available".

    It was certainly decided is "making available" in the case of DeCSS, the DVD Content Scrambling System defeating program. Direct hyperlinks -- i.e. clickable links -- were ruled as part of distributing an illegal program, and web-site owners with such links on them were facing court action. Only non-clickable links -- here's your link in text, now type it in yourself -- were considered acceptable by this court. So yes, it has been established.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  40. Re:Copyright's real purpose....EXCUSE ME? by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
    the original copyright was issued to printers, so that they could print the Bible and be assured of some profit after all the labor was invested (with hand printing presses).

    Excuse me, but are you claiming that the Bible was able to be copyrighted?

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  41. Re:Limewire - TOTALLY WORTHLESS by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
    When Limewire is installed, sharing of one's iTunes library is active by default.

    Sharing one's iTunes library is TOTALLY WORTHLESS. iTunes songs are encrypted with the FairPlay DRM system which has not been cracked. Having iTunes files on a machine not authorized for that particular song will not allow that song to be played. For more on how iTunes actually works, read this link.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  42. What about MGM vs. Grokster? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > There is no such thing as "making available" in the Copyright Act.
    > So why on earth would there be cases that discuss what is or isn't "making available"?

    You're right insofar as they're trotting this out as an extension of existing law (i.e. it's not illegal, but they think it should be), but I could've sworn that they tried something similar in Grokster or another case against a P2P software maker? Although it may not have been decided on those grounds, I had thought that the Supreme Court felt that such things constituted some kind of indirect liability. In other words, that they were guilty not for actually making copies, but for helping someone else do it. I forget the legal term, though, and I'm no lawyer, so you might well know why it's not really the same argument.

    That said, I *sincerely* hope they never manage to go anywhere with this. Once upon a time, there was this guy who did early hypertext experiments in Project Xanadu. Unfortunately, he thought that authors should have all sorts of crazy powers to retract things they'd said and control how other people could cite them. In other words, he was trying to make some kind of secure DRM system from the get-go (never mind that "secure DRM" is a complete oxymoron--you CANNOT give someone access and deny someone access at the same time, period). As might be expected, by trying to do the impossible, he totally, utterly failed (see rules 3, 9, 11 & 15 in particular for ridiculous bits). Don't misunderstand--he's still working on the project last I knew, but hardly anyone knows or cares about it any more.

    The sad point of that is that, had he had sense enough to know that such controls are inherently impossible, we might have seen the web born sooner, and our technological development might have been faster. Oh, and he still has some good ideas, but the DRM-ish parts should've been abandoned long ago, as well as the royalties nonsense.

  43. Re:Lazy Lawyer - DeCSS by slcdb · · Score: 1

    Linking to something that is in and of itself illegal, is not the same as linking to something legal, but protected by copyright.

    The question of whether 2600 could link to DeCSS was not about copyright. It was about linking to something illegal.

    We're talking about the legality of linking to, say, a Britney Spears song. Is a Britney Spears song illegal? No. Is child porn? Yes. Is linking to child porn illegal? You betcha. Is linking to Britney Spears? I'm sure you can guess the answer. What about DeCSS?

    Do you see the difference?

    --
    Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
  44. insane by Yaur · · Score: 1
    This would basicaly make it illegal to have non-DRMed content on your windows machine unless you have disabled the administrative shares (e.g \\127.0.0.1\c$).

    Since most windows users are not tech-savy enough to do this it makes it a defacto crime to posses music which is not protected by DRM.

  45. Here's an interesting analogy to shoot down RIAA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I've got an Ipod. Unfortunately, my car radio doesn't have any way to hook it into the stereo system. So I got one of those Ipod accessories, which will broadcast the current song on an FM channel.

    Granted, this is a low-power broadcast. And perfectly legal according to the FCC. The problem is that according to the RIAA's legal arguments, I'm guilty of making the tune available. Goodness knows that someone else could come along, and listen to it on their radio. Or even record it.

    It doesn't seem the FCC shares the RIAA's viewpoint, as they granted the manufacturer a license for doing such broadcasting. There is absolutely no way in the world that the FCC would grant a license to use the airwaves in order to facilitate piracy.

    So, Mr. NewYorkCountryLawyer, you've apparently got the FCC on your side. This is a government sanctioned fair-use device.

  46. Copyleft. by babbling · · Score: 1

    Copyleft is a better idea. Not only will your work be free for others to share, but anyone who makes a derivative work must also allow others to share alike.

  47. MS marketspeak by Anomalyst · · Score: 1

    Zune "Squirt" (is that the right term for it?)
    Hmmm, "dribble" or possibly "drybble" (precedent of nibble/nybble) seems a far more accurate desrciption and inspires a far more amusing (though still disturbing) mental picture of the actual performance level of a chair throwing monkey boy. If you insist on a single syllable, "dryp" might fit the byll (or ballmer, as the case my be).
    --
    There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
  48. Re:Copyright's real purpose....EXCUSE ME? by JCOTTON · · Score: 1

    No, but the "right" to print the Bible was granted by the government. see this

  49. So the music issue is going to be worst by ghostbar38 · · Score: 1

    Because if I'm in my car and I put all the volume to my sound sytem then I'm making avaible the music to everyone!

    So, everyone go and buy headphones... Oh wait, but you could share your headphones, ok then kill yourself ;-)

    --
    ghostbar page.
  50. There's No Such Thing as "Making Available" by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

    One user is trolling around trying to generate threads of discussion on what is "making available".

    Please believe me that this is a nonsensical discussion. There are no cases on what is "making available" because there is no such thing as "making available" in the Copyright Act.

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    1. Re:There's No Such Thing as "Making Available" by slcdb · · Score: 1

      I can only assume that you're talking about me. I also noticed that you made me a foe. That's unfortunate because I'm not trying to pick on you. I suppose I shouldn't have said that I think you are only trying to fool yourself, and for that I'm sorry. You can take my apology or leave it.

      I'm only trying to discuss this issue to get to the bottom of whether "making available" is infringement or not. After all, that is the whole subject of the article, isn't it? So why tell everybody to not listen to my "nonsensical discussion" when this alleged nonsense is at the core of TFA.

      I would love it if you could convince me that "making available" isn't infringement using a more concrete argument than simply waving your hands about and telling me that it's nonsense. I hate the RIAA just as much as anybody else (maybe even more than most). But your, mine ... our disdain for the RIAA isn't going to win court cases. Only logical reasoning and persuasive arguments will (well, maybe bribes will too, but let's hope that's not how it goes).

      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    2. Re:There's No Such Thing as "Making Available" by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      I'm really starting to wonder about you because this is the favorite line of RIAA trolls: "I hate the RIAA just as much as anybody else". I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and removed the "foe" designation.... provisionally.

      Now listen to me one more time.

      Copyright Law in the United States is governed by something we call the Copyright Act.

      There is no such thing as "making available" in the Copyright Act.

      If you will bother to read the transcript you will see that Judge Karas made that exact same point, and that the RIAA's lawyer did not have an answer to it.

      Now when you keep saying that you're not aware of a body of case law that says what is or isn't "making available", can't you see how misleading and illogical that is? Why would the cases define something no one ever heard of before.

      So please stop saying things that are misleading, and I won't designate you as a foe.

      But if you make another misleading comment the foe designation goes up and stays up, which means to me that I won't be reading your stuff any more.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    3. Re:There's No Such Thing as "Making Available" by slcdb · · Score: 1
      I understand your point that "making available" isn't in the Copyright Act. I'm not arguing that. I'm also not arguing that "making available" is infringement. However, there has been much speculation as to what the ramifications would be if, in the end, it is decided that "making available" is in fact infringement.

      Even some of the amici that filed briefs in support of your case mentioned this. See for example this quote from the CCIA:

      "Companies routinely include in their Web pages hyperlinks that enable persons to navigate easily to other sites throughout the Web by use of browser software. Indeed, the Web is a collection of hyperlinks. Even though the use of hyperlinks makes content located elsewhere available to a Web user, it does not constitute a distribution of that content under section 106(3)."
      Here, the CCIA is equating "linking to" with "making available". Many others here on Slashdot made the same connection, leading to a lot of discussion about the ramifications of this. But where is the basis for this logic? The fact is that there is none. This idea that creating a hyperlink to some content somehow makes that content available is a fallacy. The content's availability is totally independent of any hyperlinks to that content.

      Note that this discussion about "linking to" versus "making available" is independent of whether or not "making available" is considered infringement. Of course, it becomes a more interesting discussion if "making available" is infringement, but that has not yet been officially decided, correct?

      The only thing I'm getting at here is that there's no need to panic that the whole Internet will fall apart if you lose this case.
      --
      Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
    4. Re:There's No Such Thing as "Making Available" by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Thanks for your assurances, which are based on guesswork and speculation on your part.

      Law is not based on guesswork and speculation.

      Under the rule of law we are supposed to know what we can and can't do, not have to guess at what will happen after someone sues us and we spend a couple of hundred thousand dollars or more to find out.

      As the Computer & Communications Industry Association and U.S. Internet Industy Association said in their brief, the RIAA's attempt to expand the distribution right to "making available" would "both ignore the plain language and structure of the Copyright Act and distort copyright law in a way that would threaten varied interests across the American economy and society" (Amicus Brief at page 2), "sweep into the reach of copyright law many activities not now covered by copyright law" (Amicus Brief at page 10), and would render "the boundaries of the [distribution] right ... indeterminate and unpredictable, creating chilling effects on members of Amici [companies in the computer and internet industries] and virtually every other participant on the Internet" (Amicus Brief at page 11).

      The fact that you're able to imagine an argument that might or might not defeat the applicability of this new infringement theory to hyperlinks is wonderful. I'm very happy for you. But in the real world having some vague argument that might or might not ultimately carry the day in a litigation is not much comfort to anyone, nor would it be to you if you were sued.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  51. Re:Limewire - TOTALLY WORTHLESS by senatorpjt · · Score: 1

    Unless you're among the majority of people who don't use the iTunes store and copy their songs off a CD.

  52. Re:Copyright's real purpose....EXCUSE ME? by blacklint · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure in relation to that context, but in modern day translations sure are.

    From the New American Bible:

    All rights reserved. No portion of this Bible, including all supplementary material, may be reproduced without written permission of the copyright holder.
    Copyright, 1876 and 1871, by Devore & Sons, Inc. Whichita, Kansas 67201
    Copyright, 1876 and 1871, by Catholic Bible Publishers Whichita, Kansas 67201

    ...so yes, it is.

  53. Lazy Decision. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Secondly, the way the Court resolves the issue could have a major effect all across the internet. If "making available" copyrighted works on the internet constitutes a "distribution" under the Copyright Act, even though no copies have been distributed, and there has been no sale, license, or other transfer, it means web sites and blogs can't provide links to each other or to anything else on the internet which is copyrighted, which includes almost everything on the internet."

    I've been reading on the law, and the way most courts work is that they rule under the narrowest of scope when given a choice. One saw this in the issue of "theft" of intellectual property. This case and the judges ruling may only apply to a smaller subset. Also I think that "intent" may play an important role in this "making available" issue as well.

    In the examples you give. e.g. blogs, websites at least one if not both (via logs) knows and approves of linking (making available). The issue as far as copyright is concerned is; is there a violation of copyright by one, or both. And was it willful?

    Now I'm off to read the paper, but the issue of "making available", but "no copies distributed" has an issue. How did the RIAA know that the material in question was available in the first place? And if they were capable of knowing, was anyone else able. e.g. the public? In other words, how can one say that no copies were made to a resource that accessable to the public? Now if you're talking about being the middleman and intentionally linking to copyrighted material? I believe that has already been decided. e.g accessory to.

  54. Limewire-Ignorance of the law. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To all the people replying to this story. Your defense basically is; is ignorance a valid defense? Simple as that. Second even if one *assumes* you're a crimminal. That's only valid in the punishment phase. And that can range from "don't do that again" all the way to serious fines, and jail.

  55. Have to disagree here by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

    Whichever way the ruling goes it will have a large impact across the Internet.

    I doubt it. The RIAA has made it clear in their "Opposition to Motion to Dismiss Complaint" that they are alleging "downloading" and "distribution" in addition to "making available". It's therefore quite easy for the court to punt on the issue of "making available", and that's probably what they'll do. This will cause no impact across the Internet whatsoever.

    I got fooled by the sensational story and headline, but this whole incident is really much ado about nothing.

    1. Re:Have to disagree here by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They are alleging "downloading", which they admit they can't prove. They are alleging "distribution", which they admit they can't prove. They can prove "making available", which the judge pointed out isn't against anything in the copyright law. Seems like this does mean something...

    2. Re:Have to disagree here by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Seems to me you have a much better grasp of copyright law than the RIAA lawyers do.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    3. Re:Have to disagree here by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      They are alleging "downloading", which they admit they can't prove. They are alleging "distribution", which they admit they can't prove.

      They have admitted no such thing. They haven't proven these things yet, because the case hasn't reached the fact-finding stage yet.

    4. Re:Have to disagree here by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 1

      And yet, three judges already rejected this argument, and another one is going to reject it again. What will be your excuse then? I guess these judges are all incompetent too.

      All these judges, all these RIAA lawyers, all the MPAA lawyers, everyone in the US attorney's office, they're all idiots. But not you. After all, you have a blog!

  56. Re:Here's an interesting analogy to shoot down RIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    How about those f%$#kers who blast their stereos out their car windows? or my neighbors downstairs? If anyone's making music freely-available *with intent*, it's these assholes.

  57. It is not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What they want to do is prosecute people who post links that lead to places where you can download content.

    In the analog world, this would be the equivalent of prosecuting someone for copywrite infringement who had written down on a notecard the street address of a black market bookstore where pirated editions of books were available.

    While you may indeed wish to make such activity illegal, but it is by no means copyright infringement. You would need to make a new law outlawing what you actually did, not fudge the truth and say that you unlawfully copied something. If you valued truth over expediency.

  58. "Making Available" = Publishing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fact that the law is not clear on the term "making available" is irrelevant, since "making available" is semantically identical to "publishing" and there is a lot more clarity about when publishing is allowed or not.

  59. When we can copy cars, cars will be copyrighted by FreeUser · · Score: 1

    Your analogy is flawed because cars are mostly NOT protected by copyright (only the manual(s) for it). Cars are protected by patents/trademarks.

    His analogy is perfectly correct. The only reason cars are not copyrighted is that we don't currently have the technology to copy them (except, of course, to build an identical production line, for which patents and trademarks are sufficient protection).

    Once we have inexpensive replication technology (whether it is nano+recipe or something a little more esoteric) and the ability to copy physical objects, copyright will be used to artificially maintain the scarcity our current economic models rely on. Whether that copyright is applied to the object (people do copyright buildings, making commercial photography of them without paying royalties for a license illegal. C.f the Eiffel tower in Paris as an example) or on the recipe will be immaterial, the end result will be artificial scarcity and deliberate as well as unnecessary impoverishment of the masses to support outdated business models and, perhaps, even outdated economic systems. Much like the entertainment industry is doing today.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  60. Re:Wrong way of drawing the line.... by cfulmer · · Score: 1

    There are two right involved here, the distribution right and the copy right -- a copyright owner has, among other rights, the right to copy his work and the right to distribute his work. If somebody else does either of these things, that person has infringed the copyright. You do not need to copy a work to infringe it.

    In any case, who "does the copying" is not as clear as you make it out to be. Your computer is certainly taking part in the copying process. Sure, it's only because somebody else told it to, but "he told me to do it" has never been a valid defense. Plus, in doing the transmission, your computer is making internal copies in memory and in buffers -- these might be enough of a copy to withstand the copyright act. (Personally, I don't think so, but it remains an open issue in copyright law.)

  61. Re: a better job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF? I don't think the original poster wasn't trying to a better job than the lawyers or you or anybody else. Seems to me like as an author he/she was saying that from an author's view the 'Net makes it bloody difficult to figure out when "making available" becomes "infringement" specifically because of the fair use doctrine in US copyright law.

  62. burglary by fuliginous · · Score: 1

    Yes of course it is just like if I go out and leave my house unlocked and the door open I'm burgling myself even if it happens to be some other git who comes along and takes my entire CD collection and 77" TV

  63. Could be an interesting headline... by Wolfger · · Score: 1

    "Making available" deemed illegal; Government closes all libraries and universities.

  64. My take on it: court will reject the motion by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

    I think the court will sidestep the whole "making available" issue by looking deep enough into the cases cited to rule that, while "making available" may be infringement, it may also not be and the result depends on the facts of the particular case. Since it's a fact-based decision, the court can't decide it at this point and thus must refuse the request for summary judgment. That lets the court dispose of the motion without actually ruling in either direction.

    If you want to get a ruling that "making available" isn't infringement, you're going to need a squeaky-clean defendant. It's going to seem to the court like letting the defendant get away on a technicality with something that seems like it shouldn't be allowed. The only way that's going to fly is if the defendant can prove they never downloaded anything they weren't authorized to and either that they never made anything available to others they weren't authorized to or that they had a reasonable belief that they weren't making anything available at all. And the only way you're going to get that kind of defendant into a position to request summary judgment on this point is if the *AA screw up by the numbers (which, sadly, is actually pretty likely given their track record).

  65. libraries evil? by DriveDog · · Score: 1

    So, for example, my local public library might not be allowed to lend music CDs, because that would be "making available" material for copying. Actually, I could xerox paper books, too, so those are obviously out as well.

  66. Maybe the dumbest question asked all day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is an MP3 or OGG copy of a song a derived work?

  67. Thoughtcrime? by olego · · Score: 1

    Sounds like thoughtcrime to me.

    "Yes, we know you didn't distribute the copyrighted material, but you were thinking about doing it!"

  68. Car analogy by jetmarc · · Score: 1

    > If you leave your car parked on a hill in neutral without
    > the emergency brake on, and it rolls down the hill and
    > damages another car, are you liable?

    What if you leave it parked in a flat street, without the emergency brake on. Someone else bumps into your car, pushing it into another parked car. Are you liable?

    > If you leave a computer unprotected on the internet, and
    > never take steps to protect it, are you acting negligently
    > and thus liable for the damage it causes?

    What if you copy your own CDs for the car stereo, under fair use rights. You leave the copies in your car and leave the car unlocked - ie do not take the steps to protect the copied CDs. Someone passes by, opens your car and takes away the CDs. This transfer of the CDs is not covered by fair use rights. Are you thus liable for the damage (against the copyright holder)?

    Think about it a moment.

    Regards,
    Marc

  69. Selling Creative Ouput by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1
    Creative output has always been problematic to sell.

    Commodities are easier. If you grow a pound of wheat, your potential customer knows what you have. You just have to advertise that you have it and then haggle for price with the customer. With creative stuff, you can't just put up a sign and say, 1 pound mental output from unknown thinker for sale to the highest bidder. No-one would ever pay for the output from an unknown.

    That means that creative people have to give away their first creations (or sell very cheaply) Some even pay money in order to give them away. People pay for school where they create for free. Internships are often unpaid, and the intern has to pay their own room and board in order to take the unpaid job. A side effect of this can be that people from the lower socio-economic classes are effectively barred from these entry level positions, keeping them from attaining the next levels. (but that's another thesis)

    Since creative people *must* give away their initial work, that means that there is a ton of free crap out there. Enter the music/ movie executives. Their contribution to society is to filter the crap and find the good stuff. It's easy to argue that they leave a lot of good stuff behind and let a lot of the crap through, but in theory, they're suppose to be filtering for the good stuff. The record/movie business makes a lot of money, and after any period of explosive growth, it starts to look inward and says "Hey, we're not growing as much anymore; let's apply more control to what we have." Never mind that the very business that they are in, creative output, started without control and can be killed by too much control, once there is enough money, the natural inclination of an executive is to control. Even though the execs swear up and down they are necessary to "promote' new acts, the very control they apply can stop the career of a relatively unknown artist, by not giving away enough of the artist's stuff to achieve critical mass in the marketplace. Once an artist has hit critical mass and beyond and everyone wants their stuff, that's when the execs really want the control, and they start saying to themselves, "Why didn't we control the artist's stuff from the very beginning?" and thus they start trying extreme controls on even the unknown artists that they are promoting, even though that same control might drive sales down.

    To sum up:
    1. Creative People must give away uncontrolled free samples to get to the point where they can make money.
    2. Executives will naturally turn up the controls once there is money.
    3. Controls hurt new artists more than established ones.
    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)