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Linux Systems and the New DST

An anonymous reader writes "The recent changes in the Daylight Saving Time will affect virtually all computer systems in the US one week from now. Microsoft has been busy preparing Windows users for 'Y2DST,' and all the major Linux distributions have also issued patches. How can you be sure your Linux systems are ready, and what can you do to get them ready if they're not? This how-to article at Linux-Watch answers both questions in simple language and with easy-to-follow instructions."

304 comments

  1. Simple by SIGBUS · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Set you system to run on UTC. No daylight savings hassles to worry about.

    --
    Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
    1. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A certain retarded system from a company that starts with the letter "M" can only run on local time...

    2. Re:Simple by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      Linux tries to use the hardware clock as UTC by default, but has the option to use a local-time hardware clock for compatibility with Windows. Linux normally would only uses the DST and timezone settings for the displayed time.

    3. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats what I do. But if you are a local timer and you forget to patch... Oh the horror, the clock will be out by an hour. geeee I think I'll change someone 4K to fix it.

      Come on pople its not a big deal.

    4. Re:Simple by GundamFan · · Score: 2, Informative

      A certain retarded AC has no idea how an OS that starts with a W works.

      You can set a Windows box to GMT...

      --
      I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
      Mark Twain
    5. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? They have linux is Antarctica right? Oh wait, yeah.. the time thing, right. I'll change my linux box tonight or something manually.

    6. Re:Simple by sam0vi · · Score: 1

      Or people could disable daylight time savings and do it manually (with a mouse and a keyboard, i mean). Because what do you think are the computer tasks that would malfuncton because of an erratic time change? After all i dont know if servers can go down just because someone updates the system clock. Is a whole hour time change worse and changing it one second? So many questions, so much weed. cheers

      --
      When my Karma level reaches 0 I feel in piece with the Universe
    7. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And have it properly convert the time to the local time?

    8. Re:Simple by alexhs · · Score: 1

      Can you please let us know ?

      I mean, I want to have the internal clock / BIOS clock set to GMT, but the task bar clock set to whatever timezone I'm in.

      Of course you can always change your clock to show GMT (In fact, that's what I do as I only uses Windows for games at home), but that doesn't count.

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    9. Re:Simple by Teun · · Score: 1

      How can you be sure your Linux systems are ready, and what can you do to get them ready if they're not?

      Move to Antarctica.
      Ah yes, then Tux himself can fix it!

      Though it might be more convenient to get to see him at the local Zoo.
      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    10. Re:Simple by TWX · · Score: 1

      Or move to Arizona, as we don't observe Daylight Savings Time at all... It's nice not having to deal with that BS...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    11. Re:Simple by toleraen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Come on pople its not a big deal.

      Tell that to my Outlook calendar. In two weeks when I host my telecon involving people from several states around the US, how many do you think are going to call on time, an hour early, or an hour late? I'm not looking forward to repeating myself over and over. Besides, 4k is chump change when you're talking about the time wasted when dozens of meetings get screwed up (mainly due to PEBKAC errors, but still.)

    12. Re:Simple by AusIV · · Score: 1

      Or people could disable daylight time savings and do it manually

      That's great, if you're going to be there. I have a MythTV box that records TV shows for me. I'm going to be out of town during the new change over, and if it didn't automatically update properly, I'd miss all of my shows after the time shift. If I tried to do it manually, I'd have to do it before I left, which would mean I'd miss my shows between when I left and DST, unless I set up a cron job to do it for me.

      Fortunately, Ubuntu seems to be on the ball, "sudo zdump -v /etc/localtime |grep 2007" tells me the DST is up to date.

    13. Re:Simple by ewanm89 · · Score: 1

      Or set config file to RTC is in UTC and run ntpdate to update RTC. Then don't boot windows until after you've come back and changed the settings back!!

    14. Re:Simple by Intron · · Score: 1
      Linux does NOT have the option to run the hardware clock on local time, because if you reboot your machine during DST it does not know whether or not the hardware clock has been adjusted. It will come up an hour off. Don't do it. For a simple way to tell if your Linux system is updated, just print a time after the change in both UTC and local and see if the offset is the correct number of hours. EST is 5 hours, but Eastern Daylight will be 4 hours. like so.

      perl -e 'print gmtime(1173808800)."\n";'
      Tue Mar 13 18:00:00 2007
      perl -e 'print localtime(1173808800)."\n";'
      Tue Mar 13 14:00:00 2007
      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    15. Re:Simple by Intron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can use a cron to do this in the spring, but I wouldn't recommend it in the fall.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    16. Re:Simple by obergfellja · · Score: 1

      another win for Linux.

    17. Re:Simple by TheThiefMaster · · Score: 1

      Partially correct there. Linux DOES have the option to run the hardware clock on local time, but you are right in saying that that means it doesn't know whether the clock has been adjusted for DST, instead it always assumes that it's correct. As I said before, this option is only provided for dual-boot compatibility with windows, which uses a local-time hardware clock.

    18. Re:Simple by Ponga · · Score: 1

      or... move to Arizona! http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/ari zona/
      By fortune of our servers being in Arizona, I don't have to update 100's of machines! YEAH!

    19. Re:Simple by AusIV · · Score: 1

      I hadn't thought of that. You'd just have to make sure your cron job checked that it hadn't already run an hour ago.

    20. Re:Simple by mudshark · · Score: 1

      Your timezone may be stable. But you are running out of water.

      Also, about 20 percent of your land area *does* observe DST, but it's sparsely populated. Navajo Nation ring any bells?

      --
      In other news, astrophysicists have announced that they now know what all that dark matter is: it's stupidity.
    21. Re:Simple by lazybeam · · Score: 1

      What's the point of Daylight Savings? My state doesn't have it (referendum some years ago) and there is plenty of "daylight". Just because people are lazy and don't like getting up before "7am" (or whatever) we'll make them get up an hour earlier by lying about the time?

      --
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      no sig for you. come back one year.
    22. Re:Simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because people are lazy and don't like getting up before "7am" (or whatever) we'll make them get up an hour earlier by lying about the time? The problem is that most people get up at the same time every day. DST moves that time an hour earlier in the summer. In your DST-less state, does everyone change their schedule to be earlier in the summer? Or do you just accept that light until 8 PM should be enough for anyone and do gymnastics to keep the daylight out at 6:00 AM so that you can sleep past 7 AM?

      In an ideal world (ideal in the sense that we hand wave at technical difficulty), we'd base the beginning of the day on dawn. At some variable time later, the sun would go down. This would maximize the amount of awake daylight (and minimize sleeping daylight). Of course, it would also result in days with (at least) two different lengths, which would make the clock programming a nightmare (back in the real world where technical problems are relevant).
    23. Re:Simple by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      On the contrary...

      Even if the server is set to UTC or GMT... they don't and cannot produce a patch to fix this issue.

      For those of us servicing the U.S. and the international community every piece of software running on the server has to determine, instance by instance, whether it's servicing an area that's affected by the DST change and update the date for that instance only.

      What a frickin' nightmare!

      All the oil that's supposedly being saved by this change is going to be wasted by programmers having to work late trying to program around this
      stupidity.

      I guess I should have had the foresight to write a library that I could use in all of my software to manually and arbitrarily adjust for DST changes... my bad!

    24. Re:Simple by lazybeam · · Score: 1

      Now that we are heading into winter I know I'm not getting up as early. You say "light until 8pm" well that would be "9pm" in DST. Have you never heard of curtains to keep light out?

      I like the idea of dawn being 00:00, which would mean dusk could be between 12:00 and 16:00 (the further towards the poles the more time in light, but we'll ensure "night" has at least 8 hours for those zones). This idea would require timezones on latitude as well as longitude. And it would require a "gradual DST" which isn't technically impossible, just a lot of ingrained technology would need replacing. It could be possible with GPS receivers. Or even clocks with a date and a "zone" setting (as one state/province should be on the same time system, it would just mean outlying towns will get a few minutes more/less daylight) and it would know on which date the time is UTC+xx:xx.

      This is all assuming keeping 24 hours in a day. Maybe we'll move to metric time at the same time ;-)

      --
      --
      no sig for you. come back one year.
    25. Re:Simple by TWX · · Score: 1

      The Navajo Nation isn't even close to 20%. They're closer to other states' financial spheres of influence and municipalities than they are to much of what's going on in Arizona, so it's not a particularly big deal.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  2. A very simple *nix test by Iphtashu+Fitz · · Score: 5, Informative

    $ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2006"
    $ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2007"

    If the output of both shows the same time (eg. 10:00 EST) then you've got a problem. If they show different times (eg. 10:00 EST and 11:00 EDT) then your system is ok.

    1. Re:A very simple *nix test by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      Hurray for debian:

      [~]:user@debian$ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2006"
      Sat Mar 25 09:00:00 CST 2006
      [~]:user@debian$ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2007"
      Sun Mar 25 10:00:00 CDT 2007

    2. Re:A very simple *nix test by Kyle_Katarn-(ISF) · · Score: 1

      openSUSE 10.1 comes up correctly out-of-the-box.

      Thanks for the tip!

    3. Re:A very simple *nix test by prockcore · · Score: 1

      If the output of both shows the same time (eg. 10:00 EST) then you've got a problem.


      Unless you live in Arizona.. in which case, you don't ever have a problem with DST.
    4. Re:A very simple *nix test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Odds are, if you live in Arizona you still have problems with DST. Everybody else still uses DST so you never know if a time is supposed to be daylight time or standard time. For example, when the TV says a show will be on "10PM Pacific time, 11PM Mountain time", you have to know whether it's PST or PDT. If you're listening to a recording of some company's office hours, they will often say "We're open from 8AM to 5PM Pacific Standard Time", when in fact they really just mean "Pacific Time" (they probably don't know the difference).

      In fact, the problems of staying off DST caused enough problems in Indiana to make them switch over.

      dom

    5. Re:A very simple *nix test by generic · · Score: 2, Informative

      zdump -v US/Eastern |grep 2007

      --
      Microsoft aggravates my tourettes syndrome.
    6. Re:A very simple *nix test by prockcore · · Score: 1

      For example, when the TV says a show will be on "10PM Pacific time, 11PM Mountain time", you have to know whether it's PST or PDT.


      Well, Arizona is Mountain. Most TV stays the same (primetime always starts at 7pm), but some cable shows move by an hour (Daily Show for example). I just let TiVo figure it out.

      It's still a relatively minor problem compared to the problems of actually having to adjust clocks twice a year.

      What happens if you have a cron running at 2:30am every night? Does one night a year it not run at all, while another night it runs twice? I never have to even concern myself with that possibility.
    7. Re:A very simple *nix test by neiljt · · Score: 1

      neil@blix:~> date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2006"
      Sat Mar 25 15:00:00 GMT 2006
      neil@blix:~> date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2007"
      Sun Mar 25 16:00:00 BST 2007

      Hey! I didn't know we were going with the DST changes on this side of the pond.

  3. Win vs Lin by stry_cat · · Score: 4, Informative

    Funny how with Linux there isn't any danger of your entire system breaking. I know we spent every day since the Windows patches were relased, testing and make sure the patches don't break anything. So far our Exchange server had to be restored from backup once already b/c all the calendar entries got screwed up.

    1. Re:Win vs Lin by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you're competent in your Windows adminstration, then there isn't any danger of your entire system breaking.

    2. Re:Win vs Lin by DrXym · · Score: 1, Informative
      Linux apps are not somehow magically immune to breakage from DST patches. The simple fact is that if your computer solution comprises software from multiple vendor / maintainers then you should be extremely concerned about the DST change whether you're using Linux, Unix, OS X or Windows. Not only do you have to patch each system, but somehow verify to your own satisfaction that those patches actually work.

      Especially if proper timestamping is a mission critical requirement, such as for real time systems, financial trading etc. In fact it's even worse for something like trading since you may be talking about literally hundreds, or thousands of distinct subsystems passing timestamps around between each other.

    3. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a pretty shitty admin you have over there. Our Exchange systems were updated without a hitch, and our setup is far from simple.

    4. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      If you're competent in your Windows adminstration, then there isn't any danger of your entire system breaking.


      Exactly. All the competent Windows admins have already switched to Linux.

    5. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're sure that Evolution / whatever other calendaring app you use will reliably keep all meetings at the correct time?

    6. Re:Win vs Lin by fbjon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't tell me you're timestamping with local time? Always use UTC and convert to local time on the fly, it avoids all these problems.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    7. Re:Win vs Lin by EvilRyry · · Score: 1

      If the applications were correctly designed there is no issue when using Linux. Having the system clock on GMT works around a lot of the problems that Windows has with DST.

    8. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do Exchange-alternatives really work all that much better? How do they handle meeting with attendees in Germany?

    9. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Funny how with Linux there isn't any danger of your entire system breaking. I know we spent every day since the Windows patches were relased, testing and make sure the patches don't break anything. So far our Exchange server had to be restored from backup once already b/c all the calendar entries got screwed up.

      As much as I like linux, you are confusing two separate things: operating systems and applications. It is very easy to update windows to use the new DST rules. Frankly, even without patching, windows will not break, the clock will be off by an hour.

      However, since exchange is (amongst other things) a calendaring application, all of the times of your schedule need to be checked if they are between the old DST change date and the new DST change date, and adjusted accordingly, otherwise your schedule will be off by an hour.

      Microsoft has free tools & published procedures tools to update exchange. If you didn't follow them, that is your problem.

    10. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't tell me you're timestamping with local time? Always use UTC and convert to local time on the fly, it avoids all these problems.

      Well, for some applications, that would be wrong.

      If you have a scheduling application, you want your meetings listed in local time. If you stored your meeting times in UTC, you would have incorrect values when you convert to local time. You also need to keep track of the timezone.

      If I create 9 am meetings on march 9, march 13, march 29 and april 3, storing these values in UTC would give the wrong answer if the dates of DST change in the future.

    11. Re:Win vs Lin by DrXym · · Score: 1
      Sometimes you have to timestamp with whatever format the subsytem expects. Sometimes you have to assume the timezone of the timestamp because it doesn't say, or you have to convert because the system makes an assumption. Sometimes the subsystem is made by a 3rd party vendor or is otherwise physically out of your control.

      It would be nice if you could dictate from end to end to use UTC but the real world doesn't always allow for it. And even if it did, you'd *still* need to verify your systems were DST compliant and patched so you're in the same mess either way.

    12. Re:Win vs Lin by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      If I create 9 am meetings on march 9, march 13, march 29 and april 3, storing these values in UTC would give the wrong answer if the dates of DST change in the future.

      That assumes a rather naive UTC/LocalTime conversion.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    13. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what happens when I schedule a meeting in Germany and California and DST changes? What's the right one to move?

    14. Re:Win vs Lin by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, but UTC systems will still display the correct time. They're 100% accurate, they just have the wrong time zone. They will work perfectly well with and agree with patched systems. This is one reason you can login to a server in Cairo from New York: the systems agree that the time is the same. Windows doesn't much care about time zone changes. You'll be able to log in on March 12th whether you're patched or not.

      The only problem MS made here is by not using UTC for Exchange calendar entries in the first place. Rather, for using timestamp without time zone, which, frankly, is absurd. Did they not expect email to be a global system?

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    15. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I create 9 am meetings on march 9, march 13, march 29 and april 3, storing these values in UTC would give the wrong answer if the dates of DST change in the future.

      That assumes a rather naive UTC/LocalTime conversion.


      Not at all. Lets go back to 2004. You need to schedule meetings in 2007 at 9 am local time on march 9, march 13, march 29 and april 3. Your app converts these dates into UTC and stores the UTC values. For display purposes, your app converts the UTC values into local time. All is well.

      Then, in 2005, in a flash of idiocy, the US congress decides to change the dates of DST. The zoneinfo files on your system get updated. Everything is good, right? Wrong.

      Some of the stored UTC values for your meetings are now wrong. The only way you can tell which are wrong is if you knew the expected DST state in 2007 when the meeting was created back in 2004. If you only stored a single UTC value for the meeting, you don't know the when the meeting was created.

      Simply storing date/time in UTC is not always sufficient.

    16. Re:Win vs Lin by GunFodder · · Score: 1

      I used to agree with you, and storing dates in local time certainly makes it easier when viewing raw DB data. But eventually you run into issues when attempting to compare dates across TZs. In the end you will end up having to do TZ conversions on every date anyway, so you might as well keep everything in UTC to ensure that all stored dates can be easily compared.

    17. Re:Win vs Lin by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

      So what happens when I schedule a meeting in Germany and California and DST changes? What's the right one to move?

      You'll have to coordinate that between the parties involved; a computer can't solve that for you.

      - RG>
      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    18. Re:Win vs Lin by ciggieposeur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So what do YOU do when a single meeting spans two timezones?

    19. Re:Win vs Lin by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      That assumes a rather naive UTC/LocalTime conversion.

      No it assumes the *windows* conversion. Windows really does this.

      Every time DST changes Windows reads the times of the files in explorer differently by one hour.

      So you can't rely on timestamps in Windows. TBH the 'new DST' doesn't make any difference compared to what happens already. It's broken either way.

    20. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what do YOU do when a single meeting spans two timezones?

      Not sure what you mean by spans two timezones.

      My point was that always using UTC to store date/time values that are in the future does not always give the right answer in localtime if timezones change in the future. You need to be careful about it.

      Which is why calendaring apps like exchange need to be updated carefully.

    21. Re:Win vs Lin by GodWasAnAlien · · Score: 1

      "Sometimes you have to timestamp with whatever format the subsystem expects."

      As an alternative, you could include timezone offsets with local time.

      2007-03-06 07:30:00 -0800.

      This is how email is stamped.

      Then you are effectively passing both local time and UTC.
      That way, the "subsystem" can effectually correct the bug and use effective UTC for calculations.

      07:30 - (-08:00) = 15:30:00

      BTW, I wish slashdot would display dates with timezone offsets.

      But slashdot, has yet to fix use of Y99 dates.
      ( http ://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/06/0229 232 )

    22. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only problem MS made here is by not using UTC for Exchange calendar entries in the first place. Rather, for using timestamp without time zone, which, frankly, is absurd. Did they not expect email to be a global system?

      Yes, MS expected email to be global. The problem is MS never expected the dates of DST changeovers to change in the future. Some countries/states have DST, some don't, but when the DST changeover occurs is normally fixed.

      In the USA, the dates for the DST changeover have been constant for 20 years, so it wasn't unreasonable to assume that they wouldn't change.

    23. Re:Win vs Lin by TheSkyIsPurple · · Score: 1

      MS's suggestion is to put the meeting time and timezone in the Subject, so everyone knows when it was intended to happen.

      The organizer of the meeting should, after the servers are patched and after their machine is patched, verify the calendar entries are in the right place, and fix them if not

    24. Re:Win vs Lin by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      And computers have been around for over 30. But Microsoft hasn't. Maybe that's why Unix-like OS's have had such an easy time with this...

    25. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what do YOU do when a single meeting spans two timezones?

      Ahh, now I know what you mean.

      In fact, when you use Microsoft's new tools to update exchange/outlook, once it updates the affected meetings, it can send meeting reminders to everyone if a meeting is affected by this DST switch.

    26. Re:Win vs Lin by metamatic · · Score: 1

      Don't tell me you're timestamping with local time?

      Why not? Linux does. Check syslog.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    27. Re:Win vs Lin by a.d.trick · · Score: 1

      I know that technically this shouldn't be Linux's problem, but from my experience, storing the timestamps in UTC will cause Windows (at least XP) to go nuts and screw up your time. I actually haven't used Windows for months so this wouldn't really affect any more, but for many people it's a big problem.

    28. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Fact is that Linux libraries have supported variable DST rules for about 15 years now, while Windows has introduced it only with this DST patch (available for XP and higher only).
      This means that Linux systems only need a rules update that silently slips into the already existing system that applications were always supposed to use, while in Windows there is functionality change and you could run into problems with applications that do not expect that different rules are present for different years.

      So in Windows, you patch your system and have to re-test everything, while in Linux you just load a TZ rule and everything keeps working.

    29. Re:Win vs Lin by cortana · · Score: 1

      The meeting still happens at the same time (UTC). If you want to 'correct' the meeting time to account for the DST change, then you are actually rescheduling the meeting. :)

    30. Re:Win vs Lin by iabervon · · Score: 1

      Unless you're scheduling meetings a year in advance (or in the UK), neither has to change, because the time zone data was changed by law in 2005 for a difference which affects 2007 and later, so chances are that both sides had had the correct data for March 25, 2007 for a while already when you scheduled the meeting.

      The real issue is that, if you've got a meeting set for this afternoon, and another one set for a week later at the same time, "at the same time" is not consistent.

    31. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Not sure what you mean by spans two timezones.

      Well, he means unless you use proper precautions in the scheduling application (which would fix both cases), the time would change but at least everyone in the different timezones will still have the same time if you use UTC. And it breaks in the timezone where things changed so people should be aware of possible problems.
      Though in this case it might be all pointless, since this is a case where you always need special-casing.

    32. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      for using timestamp without time zone

      Even using a UTC timestamp with a time zone isn't enough if you want it to always work. If you store 18:00 in UTC with a note that this "used to be MST", you might say "well, if it's a date where MST changed to MDT, we can just adjust it", except that in the case of Arizona, you'd be wrong, since they're MST year-round. You would need to store (and transmit) the entire ruleset for whatever timezone you converted from, so you could correctly make the calculation in reverse.

      For dates in the past, or even for synchronization for "now", UTC is a perfectly fine idea, since anyone who suggests retroactively changing the timezones will be shot and/or ignored. However, for dates in the future, storing local time+tz and then converting to whatever time as needed would have handled this perfectly fine, since if the rules change sometime between committing that local time+tz to disk and reading it back, the conversion will use whatever the current rules are.

    33. Re:Win vs Lin by jZnat · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure only the last part of the number (225344 for example) is the important part, and the date is just an added bit that doesn't have to be unique.

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    34. Re:Win vs Lin by fizzup · · Score: 1

      Sure. Using UTC avoids all these problems. This could never, ever happen:

      #date
      Mon Mar 12 08:23:39 PST 2007

      "That's strange, the time's an hour off..."

      #date 03120924
      Mon Mar 12 09:24:00 PST 2007

      "Much better."

    35. Re:Win vs Lin by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1

      Always use UTC and convert to local time on the fly, it avoids all these problems.

      No, it really, really doesn't. Microsoft Exchange Server stores all appointments in UTC internally, and that is what is CAUSING the problem. When DST rules change, the appointment I scheduled for 4 pm local time before the patch is applied is suddently is happening at 5 pm local time.

      We're having tons of problems with other applications, including some Linux-based systems which schedule everything in UTC. Customers keep calling asking why their scheduled events have changed times after the patches, even though the DB still has the same UTC time in it.

      You really need to store a definition of the "source" timezone with a scheduled event (including UTC offsets and start/end dates), along with the time the event you're talking about was actually scheduled. Then you might just have enough information to do on-the-fly conversions, assuming all systems and applications involved use the same tzdata database. This is sort of what Windows Vista & Exchange/Outlook 2007 do, but it isn't exactly space-efficient to do the same thing in a database table with millions of entires. Oh, and of course there isn't a one-to-one mapping between windows time zones and tzdata zones. And Perl, Ruby, Java, etc. all have their own time zone tables (some based on tzdata, updfated at verying intervals through different means).

      Basically, handling time zones properly really sucks. Almost as badly as writing systems that handle local sales tax propely. The rules aren't consistent, and they change frequently.

    36. Re:Win vs Lin by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      Why do you need your clock set to the standard in order to access a server? I've seen that requirement rather often, and I can't fathom a decent reason for it. It messed me up when switching between timezones (can't log in from Seattle unless my computer's on New York time). Really, aren't relative times enough? If not, why can't the server send a packet offering a time to use in mutual dealings?

    37. Re:Win vs Lin by fbjon · · Score: 1

      Like I've said elsewhere, it does solve the problem for timestamps, but not calendering apps, since they need to specify future dates. It seems that the issue with calendering apps is not about actual time at all, however, but instead entirely about local time. I.e. we want the meeting to be at 9:00 am, no matter what that really means in terms of universal time. This creates problems. I suggest that calender apps should make a difference between events that need to stay local, and times that need to be fixed wrt. UTC.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    38. Re:Win vs Lin by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1

      The problem is that almost every application of any size has some form of scheduling that is in some way dependent on local time. CRM systems, warehousing, distribution, manufacturing, medical services, and backup applications all require scheduing. We even have marketing applications for which future campaigns are scheduled and run automatically. I fully expect the new refridgerator I am having delivered next week to show up at the wrong time.

    39. Re:Win vs Lin by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      MS did it right just fine with Active Directory and Windows authentication. The only problem is that *Exchange* doesn't.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    40. Re:Win vs Lin by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      Are you changing the clock or are you changing the time zone? If you change the clock, you're changing the internal UTC-type clock. If you're changing time zone, you're just affecting how time is displayed. Don't tell the computer that the time has changed. Tell it that you're in a different time zone.

      The problem, of course, is that Exchange is not very time-zone aware, particularly with calendar entries.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    41. Re:Win vs Lin by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      UTC timestamps don't have time zones. Rather, they all implicitly use GMT as the time zone. UTC is "the number of seconds since 00:00 Jan 1 1970 GMT" (this is why UTC doesn't technically account for leap seconds). That's an absolute number of seconds no matter where you are in the world. UTC is independent of Earth-based times such as GMT and Universal Time, and, again, this is why UTC doesn't know about leap seconds.

      To fix the "future" problem, all Outlook needs to do is:
      1. Store UTC on the Exchange server.
      2. Allow meeting times to be set with time zone info. So if I'm in Tokyo and I need to set a meeting at 9 am next week New York time, I should get three drop-down boxes: 1: Date, 2: Time, 3: Time zone (with a default of the current locale).

      Alternately, they can force UTC time for meeting creation, but that's just as absurd as the current "what's a timezone?" problem.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    42. Re:Win vs Lin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Store UTC on the Exchange server.

      The "current problem" is that since nobody thinks in UTC, things have to be converted from the local time zone to UTC. So 6 months ago, not realizing my computer didn't know about the change in the conversion process, I set up a doctor's appointment that was converted to UTC using what would turn out to be the wrong conversion, arriving at the wrong number of seconds since 00:00 Jan 1 1970 GMT.

      Without storing the tzdata that explains how the computer arrived at the UTC time, there is no way to reverse this process, or even to know today that the process had been incorrectly followed months ago when the conversion had been done. There is no way to know that a date received from another computer had calculated the UTC correctly. For all of the boneheadedness in Java's timezone data handling, at least I can look into Java's date structure and see if it was using the correct tzdata information or not.

      By storing things in local time and converting them on an as-needed basis, at least you can guarantee that the converted time is correct as long as the system is aware of the current conversion rules, and you can always guarantee that the local time is correct. By storing future dates (subject to whims of government) in UTC, you cannot guarantee either.

    43. Re:Win vs Lin by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      My point is, why should some random webapp care if I want my computer to say it's 4 July 1982, 3:52AM in Tijuana when it's really 8 March 2007, 2:14AM and in London? PeopleSoft requires that, and I can't fathom a reason for that.

    44. Re:Win vs Lin by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      Replay attacks. I capture the data you use to authenticate, and then send it to the server.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    45. Re:Win vs Lin by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      That only works if you're using time as a key, but you couldn't get accuracy beyond about five minutes, so that's almost useless. Not to mention, if the replay attack is possible, you can change the timestamp and replay. Besides which, you can just use Diffie-Hellman key exchange and make replay attacks unreasonable.

    46. Re:Win vs Lin by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      Yes, you can use pseudo-random nonces and pseudo-random session tokens to prevent replay attacks, too, but they have their own caveats. Encryption makes is unreasonable to access data, but authentication makes it unusable.

      The point is, in order for two systems to authenticate they must agree on reality. Why would you trust a system that doesn't agree on what time [meaning UTC or unixtime] it is? Agreeing on UTC time is a trivial request for a system to make of another for authentication.

      It's like complaining that you can't set your resolution to 2,000,000 x 1. The complaint is not reasonable.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    47. Re:Win vs Lin by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      Authentication is not about agreeing on reality. It's about convincing someone else that I am who I say I am. Besides, being in the right timezone is hardly a difficult requirement; the system warns you that your clock is wrong and tells you to change it, so an attacker would correct the error after the first attempt.

      You can make an argument that it's to provide session timeouts more easily, but you'd need to alter one line of code to allow people to log in with any system time, and could get rid of the rest of the time checking code. (Which PeopleSoft seem to have done recently, or maybe they just don't know how to check it in Linux.)

  4. My Windoz ME system by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    I'm so glad Micro$oft in on top of this. Oh, wait....
    --
    Real daylight savings: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

  5. NTP? by CarpetShark · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How does this work with NTP? Will the system just stay up-to-date from another system that understands the new rules, or does NTP all work on UTC so that it's not aware of this, or something?

    1. Re:NTP? by overshoot · · Score: 4, Informative

      How does this work with NTP? Will the system just stay up-to-date from another system that understands the new rules, or does NTP all work on UTC so that it's not aware of this, or something?
      NTP will keep you system clock (as Heaven intends) coordinated with UTC.

      However, if you're using an old zoneinfo file for local time, the interpretation of that UTC time is something else again, and NTP won't help you at all.

      (Well, assuming you don't live in Arizona or Hawaii. Indiana's timing sucks, doesn't it?)

      --
      Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    2. Re:NTP? by E-Lad · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've seen and heard a lot of people say "I run NTP, I'm immune to this". Sadly, they're just showing that they don't know how NTP works, even on a basic level.

      NTP as a protocol tracks the number of seconds elapsed since 1 January, 1900 UTC. It has absolutely zero knowledge of timezones or what they mean. Your NTP daemon of choise just sits there keeping your system clock reasonably accurate with UTC time and it's the relevant libc C time functions that read that UTC time, then read in the set zoneinfo data, and combine the two to give you and your apps local time.

    3. Re:NTP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... does NTP all work on UTC so that it's not aware of this, or something?


      That is correct, NTP is UTC. Most *nix kernels also keep track of time in UTC internally, it's just in userland where things are translated to the 'local' time. Each user (or even process) can have a different local time by simply setting the TZ environmental variable.

      Personally I think we should get rid of timezones (and DST) all together: the time is the same regardless of where you are on the planet. It would simply mean that 5pm (17:00 UTC) would be breakfast in California, lunch-ish in New York, quitting time in London, bedtime in India. Though psychologically I think it would be very difficult for people to adapt.
  6. Root Cause by overshoot · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Or, of course, you could have dealt with the root cause of the problem: the biannual insanity of running around changing otherwise perfectly good clocks.

    How many of you, after all, have told your State legislatures that this is stupid and it's time to opt out?

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Root Cause by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How many of you, after all, have told your State legislatures that this is stupid and it's time to opt out?

      I like DST. I know how to set what clocks I have that still need to be changed. I enjoy the extra light at the end of the day. I am aware that I could just get up an hour early and try to convince everyone else that I have to deal with to do the same, but DST accomplishes that. Also, I live in a city that spans state lines, so having one state opt out would be a real hassle.

      I would much rather lobby my legislature to allow wine to be shipped directly to my door. For crying out loud, I can get ammo delivered (and left on the doorstep) without even a signature, why can't I buy wine directly.

      So, for all of those who dislike DST, try this: Just get up an hour later.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    2. Re:Root Cause by mdboyd · · Score: 1

      You must want wine.woot too! The Horror! The Horror!

    3. Re:Root Cause by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

      I hated DST till I came to Japan.

      I usually get off work at 5pm. Sometimes 6ish. In the US, I have summer daylight till almost 10pm. I can cut my grass, swim a little, play some frisbee, and still cook burgers and dogs before dark.

      In Japan, the first thing is that the sun comes up at like 4am. It's usually light by 3:30am and full sun my 4:30am. Sleeping in requires blackout devices on the windows.

      Then, when you finally get home, you have, at best, 2 hours of light. Sun's down by 7pm and it's dark by 8pm.

      I'll take the mild irritation of resetting my watch twice a year to have that extra sun in the afternoon.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    4. Re:Root Cause by Phleg · · Score: 1

      So, for all of those who dislike DST, try this: Just get up an hour later.

      I know you're just trying to be snarky, but that doesn't at all solve most people's problem with DST: the unneeded hassle, complication, and complete mess of having to deal with it. Even worse is when we make arbitrary changes to it, like this one.

      --
      No comment.
    5. Re:Root Cause by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      Even without DST, timezone boundaries are still arbitrary political definitions that occasionally get changed. No matter what, it's not a good idea to hard-code timezone information. DST and changes to it are a good thing because they force developers to remember not to hard code time info, thus avoiding much larger problems if timezone changes were very infrequent and everything drifted into being hard coded. This is like a booster shot for a vaccine; it may hurt a little, but in the end it's good for you.

    6. Re:Root Cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So, for all of those who dislike DST, try this: Just get up an hour later.
      I found this quotation in the zoneinfo data file for North America:

      I don't really care how time is reckoned so long as there is some agreement about it, but I object to being told that I am saving daylight when my reason tells me that I am doing nothing of the kind. I even object to the implication that I am wasting something valuable if I stay in bed after the sun has risen. As an admirer of moonlight I resent the bossy insistence of those who want to reduce my time for enjoying it. At the back of the Daylight Saving scheme I detect the bony, blue-fingered hand of Puritanism, eager to push people into bed earlier, and get them up earlier, to make them healthy, wealthy and wise in spite of themselves.
      -- Robertson Davies, The Diary of Samuel Marchbanks, 1947, XIX, Sunday
    7. Re:Root Cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Abolish DST!!

    8. Re:Root Cause by MrShaggy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What if this like that silly-talking-shrub says is somewhat true? If by doing this you save 10% of your energy bill, because you don't need to use your lights in the house as much?? If you leave the blinds open, you might also be helping to heat your house somewhat. All that good stuff. I have a big house, and any saving can help. For everyones griping about how a slight deviation in their routine over a weekend none-the-less. Unlike asking everyone to drive electric cars, this is relatively simple solution. The other huge savings on the commute would be just to put six gears in everyones cars, this would allow the engine to run at a greatly reduced revolutions, putting out less pollution and using less gas over all. But try to say that to the big companies.

      --
      I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them.
    9. Re:Root Cause by freeweed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am aware that I could just get up an hour early and try to convince everyone else that I have to deal with to do the same, but DST accomplishes that.

      Absolutely. Never mind the fact that if we all shifted our schedules by an hour twice a year, then every single store sign displaying their hours would have to be changed twice a year, bus schedules would all have to be re-printed twice a year, hell ANYTHING with times on it would have to be changed twice a year. With DST we retain the same schedules, but you have to change your watch to match. Going to UTC only works if you never ever leave your timezone - or else you'd have to be making on-the-fly calculations every time you tried to remember what time the movie is at, or when the store closes, or what have you. Having a common time reference point means never having to worry about "hmm, when exactly is 5pm now that I'm on the other coast?".

      I've never understood why people think DST is "complicated". Shift your clocks twice a year (takes me all of 10 seconds as the computers take care of the rest). That extra hour of daylight after work is seriously awesome. Everyone, after about a day, adjusts and retains the same 24 hour cycle we run on - office hours are typically 9-5, at midnight odds are it will be pitch black out, that sort of thing.

      Honestly, if getting up an hour earlier for one day in April (now March) messes with your internal clock THAT much, I shudder to think what life would be like when you have children.

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    10. Re:Root Cause by tuffy · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I can pressure my legislature to provide magic fairies who will change my clocks when the need arises.

      The fact is, DST is not going away. Even if it disappears in some territories, it's safe to assume it will not disappear from all of them in our lifetimes. Thus, we're still going to have to deal with it on our computer systems. And so the constant calls of "abolish DST" remain entirely unhelpful.

      --

      Ita erat quando hic adveni.

    11. Re:Root Cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DST's real purpose is so that those of us who don't fly can still experience the joys of jetlag twice a year.

      The Department of Homeland Security is working on the "joys of taking off your shoes, going through metal detectors, and possibly being body-cavity searched" for those of us who don't fly, as well. Give them time.

    12. Re:Root Cause by FrankNputer · · Score: 1

      Still, it causes a lot of hassle for not much benefit. For instance, our radio automation systems are strictly time-based - so twice a year I get to come in to work at 2AM simply to observe that the time change happened OK. Add to that the benefit of having to run around & manually update all these machines (we keep them away from the Internet) because of the mandated change this year - not the biggest job in the world, but still work that causes me to have to put off other pressing issues.

      On a personal note, this time of year is the 19-day Baha'i Fast. We have to rise before sunrise to eat, because we then abstain from all food & drink during the daylight hours. In years past, DST didn't occur until after the Fast. This change means that we get to sleep in a bit later (sort of), but then we also can't have dinner until after about 7:15 PM. (It gets later as time goes on.)

      This is a hassle for Baha'i parents, because small kids should have dinner earlier than this. We usually feed them between 6 & 6:30, so we can get them into bed at a decent hour. This throws a monkey wrench into that whole schedule - even if we feed them early (we feed them during the day anyway), now our dinner falls in the middle of their bath time - so either we delay dinner or baths, both of which are additional difficulties.

      Later in the summer is a pain too. As the days get longer, the sun stays up later & later. Try convincing a toddler that it's night time when the sun is still up, just because you've set the clock an hour ahead.

      I'm with the folks who think that DST is a silly, outdated practice that should be given up. It's the societal equivalent of setting your clock 15 minutes fast so you aren't late to work. Better to be honest with yourself, and take responsibility for your own time management, than to pretend you can leave home later than you should.

    13. Re:Root Cause by CompMD · · Score: 1

      My mystical crystal ball says you live in Kansas City, Kansas. :)

    14. Re:Root Cause by mgblst · · Score: 1

      I like having an excuse to rock up an hour late to work, once a year. Well, a different excuse.

    15. Re:Root Cause by mdsolar · · Score: 1
      Remember, DST came from a guy who lit a candle in his widow before dawn to give the impression he was working hard.

      [...]but Dr. Baird (whom you and I saw many years after at his native place, St. Andrew's in Scotland) gave a contrary opinion: "For the industry of that Franklin," says he, "is superior to any thing I ever saw of the kind; I see him still at work when I go home from club, and he is at work again before his neighbors are out of bed."
      http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/B/bfranklin/franktxt.h tm

      That's how it was for geeks before the invention of Mountain Dew. With the new liquid technology, it is time to scrap DST.
      --
      The Sun: on time delivery every single day: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html
    16. Re:Root Cause by sharkey · · Score: 1

      On the bedtime issue, I definitely agree. I like it being light later, but bedtime is a HUGE chore for my kids during DST.

      The increased energy costs during DST suck too. I'm in Indiana, so I was able to compare last year's (our first drinking the kool-aid) energy bills to prior years. My average monthly electric bill went up by about $5 over the same months in previous years. True, I'm only one data point and I can't comment on other people's energy bills, but my bills being higher is pretty important to me.

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    17. Re:Root Cause by kristopher_d · · Score: 1

      There is no extra light at the end of the day. Want to save some daylight, wake an hour earlier. Those of us who use the whole day all year really find it frustrating to finally start driving to work in the sunshine, only to have darkness thrust back upon us because most of you are too friggin lazy to get out of bed.

    18. Re:Root Cause by Nexx · · Score: 1

      So move to Kyushu, where the sun rises later and sets later.

    19. Re:Root Cause by Christianfreak · · Score: 1

      Its not true. I wish the "silly talking shrub" would stop talking and start listening to some real scientists. This just moves when people use their lights. Instead of using them in the evening now people will turn them on when they get up because in most of the country it will still be dark outside! Heck it doesn't even take a scientist to figure that out.

      On top of that its a moot point anyway. By far the most energy I use comes from air-conditioning and heating, messing with the clock doesn't change the temperature outside.

      And finally all the energy lost by this effort far outweighs any of the tiny gains. Think about all the effort to fix computers, how many programmers had to come in early or stay late to fix this problem, and there by needing to run heating or A/C and lights in their office buildings? And then there's the studies that show the increase in car accidents due to people being tired, which will be worse this year because in Canada and the northern US the sun won't be out to melt ice on roads when people are commuting. All of these add up to far more wasted time and energy than we'll ever save.

      Be sure to thank your congressperson for such a cunning plan.

    20. Re:Root Cause by rantingkitten · · Score: 1

      So, for all of those who dislike DST, try this: Just get up an hour later.

      Sure, I'll just let my boss know I'll be showing up an hour late every day for several months, shall I? Get real.

      I'm not sure if you noticed this, but the daylight hours are already longer in summer than in winter. Screwing with the clocks just means that it's still sunny and hot as hell at 8pm, during what is already the hot season, when all some people want is for the damn sun to go down and cool off a little.

      And you're missing the point for all of that anyway, which is that we should pick one and stick with it. If more people like DST, fine. If more people like standard time, fine. But it is utterly ridiculous to screw with the clocks twice a year. It messes up people's schedules, it causes problems like the one we're facing now, and serves no useful purpose. There are several states in the US which just refuse to bother with it, and gee, somehow they manage.

      --
      mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
    21. Re:Root Cause by hb253 · · Score: 1

      I'm a bit skeptical that DST helps reduce energy use as well. However, in your case can you confirm the cost increase was caused by higher energy usage rather than higher energy cost?

      --
      Self awareness - try it!
    22. Re:Root Cause by xtype2.5 · · Score: 1

      What are these "children" of which you speak? Doesn't that require sex? Remember this is Slashdot!

    23. Re:Root Cause by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 1

      I like DST. I know how to set what clocks I have that still need to be changed. I enjoy the extra light at the end of the day.

      Hear hear! What is with people who don't like DST? Is it really that hard to move the clocks? Yeah, it's an ugly hack, but more daylight == good thing*.

      *Well, sucks for people who have to function early in the morning.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    24. Re:Root Cause by Rick17JJ · · Score: 1

      I live in Arizona and we do not go on daylight savings time. When installing Linux or Windows on a computer, the installation program always asks what time zone I am in and Arizona is listed as a separate time zone. When Arizona is selected the time never changes. My two computers can just continue ignoring the annual time zone changes like they always have.

    25. Re:Root Cause by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      How many of you, after all, have told your State legislatures that this is stupid and it's time to opt out?

      It is stupid, however, I don't need to tell my State legislature this because they already agree. I live in Arizona; we don't do that DST crap (except for some of the tribes up north, I have no idea why they got suckered into that).

    26. Re:Root Cause by overshoot · · Score: 1

      It is stupid, however, I don't need to tell my State legislature this because they already agree. I live in Arizona; we don't do that DST crap (except for some of the tribes up north, I have no idea why they got suckered into that).
      It it isn't obvious, I'm also in Arizona.

      As for the Navajo, it's pretty simple. The Big Res is split between NM and AZ, with more of it in NM and more contact with off-res there. Thus, since the Tribe (reasonably) wanted a single Navajo time, they stayed with NM. Can't really fault them for that.

      --
      Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    27. Re:Root Cause by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      Some of us don't dislike DST per se; we just don't see the point of changing the clocks twice a year. I'd be perfectly happy with year-round DST (which was actually tried once back in '72 or '73, not sure which year). But I live about 3 degrees east of my time zone's reference meridian, and things get dark pretty early in winter. Having DST in the summer doesn't help that. So I'd love year-round DST, but for someone living 5 or 10 degrees west of the meridian it might not be so great, as they'd be driving to work in darkness.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    28. Re:Root Cause by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      Most people with such firm opinions/statements about the time of sunset do not realise that this whole thing is very much dependent on your latitude.

      When you live at 30deg north the situation is completely different from here (at 52deg north), which is again very different from 65deg north.

      Here, it is very normal to drive both to and from work in darkness in winter. But, in summer it never gets (astronomically) dark the entire night. We are completely used to that. You would be too, if you lived in such a location.

    29. Re:Root Cause by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      If they have the authority to disregard the rest of the state in this matter, the NM portion could have decided to not use DST. It simply makes more sense than dealing with the silliness that is DST.

      NM, UT, NV, and CO voters, contact your representatives! We need to form a large DST-free region.

    30. Re:Root Cause by linuxrocks123 · · Score: 1

      Here, here!

      I've opted out of DST from now on. Instead of having 10:00 A.M. classes, I'll just know that my classes will start at 9 A.M. now. If others want to run around and screw with what they call the time (because they can't really change it), then that's their problem.

      --
      vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
    31. Re:Root Cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I'm with the folks who think that DST is a silly, outdated practice that should be given up.

      Not that I particularly like DST, but I'm with the folks who think that fasting and having women walk around in burkhas is a silly, outdated practice that should be given up.

    32. Re:Root Cause by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      Yep, I'm familiar with the problems of higher latitudes, too, and I made it clear that what benefits me doesn't benefit everyone. I highlighted longitude as one variable that affects people's viewpoints (the further east you live in a given timezone, the more you benefit from DST), mainly because it seems to me that it's a little less obvious, or less frequently thought of, than latitude.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    33. Re:Root Cause by identity0 · · Score: 1

      That should be every American's solution to DST - Move to Kyushu!

    34. Re:Root Cause by jdavidb · · Score: 1

      I just set my watch and my PC to UTC and opt out on my own. I don't need my state legislature's permission.

    35. Re:Root Cause by prockcore · · Score: 1

      If by doing this you save 10% of your energy bill, because you don't need to use your lights in the house as much?


      If that were the case, then the day of the switchover should show a 10% drop from the day before.
    36. Re:Root Cause by sharkey · · Score: 1

      Afraid not. All I have are the amounts paid, not kW used.

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    37. Re:Root Cause by Shadowlore · · Score: 1
      Also, I live in a city that spans state lines, so having one state opt out would be a real hassle.
      You mean like how Indiana changed it's DST stuff last year, how Arizona (most of it anyway) doesn't participate? It'd be quite the eye opener for many to look at the various time zones. There is at least one city in the US that is split for time-zones, though I don't remember it's name. They've managed for years, decades even.

      So, for all of those who dislike DST, try this: Just get up an hour later.

      And get canned from your job for showing up an hour later. Brilliant. And for those who don't get fired or can get up later w/o affecting their work, they of course deal with all the monetary costs of the switch. Remember, this is a research project. We could be changing back in a year or two. Or changing yet another hour.

      I say to hell with DST. We can save more on energy by much less disruptive changes than to change our clocks twice a year, and all the support calls etc. That result from it each and every year let alone changing the rules. Want to know what kind of propaganda is used? They tell us it "saves daylight and money". yeah, hear is the official word on what energy it "saves":

      Studies done in the 1970s by the U.S. Department of Transportation show that we trim the entire country's electricity usage by about one percent EACH DAY with Daylight Saving Time.


      WOW! ONE PERCENT EACH DAY. That means in 100 days we've cut our electricity consumption by 100%! Yeah, quick-minded people catch that they are playing word games. it may save 1% of that day's use, but that is not the impression given. And judging by the history of DST proponents, that is intentional. When you probe further you'll find admissions that for a significant portion of the DST changes, the changes have no measurable effect do to the simple fact that changing the clock doesn't change the sunlight available.

      California is looking at doing a so-called "year round DST". In plain English it means they want to change their timezone permanently. They concluded that actual energy use would not lower appreciably, but that it would be "cheaper" by shifting the demand into cheaper-hours. Of course, those "cheaper hours" are cheaper because of the lowered demand. So shifting demand there won't have any long term benefits.

      Contrary to popular belief we are not compelled by law to observe DST. We are only required to do so uniformly if we do observe it.

      A study in February of 2007 concluded that this change has a 25% chance to increase net electricity consumption., and is 75% likely to only make a 0, 12, or 1% net reduction. This makes, sense. It's called the point of diminishing returns. Given the assertion that shifting when you use your lights can reduce the time using lights, it stands to reason that there is a point that changing it further will not lead to appreciable, if any, further improvements. This study was done on California, and concluded the percentages it did based on visibility times in the AM. However, further north the effects are slightly more dramatic in both temperatures as well as visibility. It may well be that the more northern latitudes will shift toward less improvement or more increases.

      But hey, if you want extra light at the end of the day, leave work an hour earlier. It's just as justifiable as getting up an hour later and being late to work. ;)
      --
      My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
    38. Re:Root Cause by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      I'm about 10 degrees west of the center of our timezone (that in itself is funny, because timezones are supposed to be center plus or minus 7.5 degrees).
      In winter, our clock time is 40 minutes ahead of solar time. In summer it is one hour and 40 minutes.

      Again, it is a matter of habit. We changed to this system in world war 2 and it never changed back. Most people alive today don't have a reference to "the correct situation".
      Except, when we travel and are astonished how early it gets dark.

      Light conditions vs clock time really does not matter a lot. People adapt to the static offset (40 minutes in our case). The DST just adds to that.

    39. Re:Root Cause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of using them in the evening now people will turn them on when they get up because in most of the country it will still be dark outside! Where I live, even with DST, it's often light out before I get up in the summer. In general, people tend to be up from 7 AM to 11 PM. Meanwhile, sunrise to sunup is 5:11 AM to 9:11 PM on June 21st (the longest day of the year). Now, maybe you get up at 4:11 AM (the sunup time without DST) every day, but many of us don't. Note that getting up at 4:11 AM would mean over three hours of darkness at the end of December when the sun is up 7:55 AM to 4:20 PM.

      It's also worth noting that one is more likely to be outside doing something in the evening than first thing in the morning. A lot of morning prep time is doing things (like dressing or showering) where one blocks off the outside (and any sunlight) for privacy reasons. Thus, it is less harmful to get up in darkness than to spend the evening in it.
    40. Re:Root Cause by onemorechip · · Score: 1
      People adapt to the static offset (40 minutes in our case)

      I'm not sure what you mean by "adapt". If I were 10 degrees west of a time zone's reference meridian (with no change in latitude, though in the Pacific zone I think that would put me somewhere near San Clemente Island), then I'd have about an extra 50 minutes of daylight. It wouldn't be dark when I get home from work in winter (except around solstice). I'd probably use the extra sunlight to go running, or some other outdoor activity. I don't like running after dark; I think it's hazardous. I've "adapted" by curtailing my activities on workdays during winter months (and gained weight as a result). But I see many people who "adapt" by running or bicycling at 5:30 PM or 6 PM, when they get home from work, in spite of the winter darkness. I have to keep an eye out for these well-adapted people on my drive home.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    41. Re:Root Cause by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      What I mean is that when the clock is offset from solar time, people will shift their workday accordingly.

      I don't know what is customary in your country, but here it is normal to have a 7.5 hour working day that one can start and end in a 2-hour interval at the beginning and end of the day. So there is nothing that prevents you from working half an hour earlier when you want to go running after work, or half an hour later when you don't.

    42. Re:Root Cause by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      Ah, I thought by "adapt", you meant a psychological/physiological adjustment. Now I see your meaning.

      I wish it were that flexible here. Not that I couldn't come in at 7, leave at 4 -- in theory. Unfortunately, my bosses are prone to call meetings at any hour between 8 and 5 (and occassionally going past 5). Also, there's not much recognition for coming in early, but if you leave early it's obvious to everybody...

      An official company policy embracing flexible hours would certainly help. Then I'd go 8 to 5 in summer, 7 to 4 in winter, effectively living on year-round DST.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
  7. Simple by isj · · Score: 1

    How can you be sure your Linux systems are ready, and what can you do to get them ready if they're not?

    Move to Antarctica.

  8. Better article by grimwell · · Score: 2, Informative

    Verifying Timezone Settings in Linux lists common distros & needed patches and how-to verify settings. Waaay less wordy than the article linked in the summary.

    --
    If the govt becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites man to become his own law, it invites anarchy
  9. Beware JVM Problems by tritonman · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you have systems running JVM 1.3 that interact with systems using 1.4 or above, beware, there are issues in how they implemented the fix in 1.3. In Java 1.3, the DST change is applied to ALL years, including prior to 2007, so if you have a remote object on 1.3 give a date to an application running in 1.4 (as a binary object, not just text) then it will cause problems, it will set it to 1 hour off, if you don't use timestamps, the default will be midnight, so one hour off will be the previous day. This has caused a bunch of problems where I work.

    1. Re:Beware JVM Problems by GunFodder · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone in their right mind still be using JVM 1.3?

    2. Re:Beware JVM Problems by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2, Informative

      Proxy compatibility. MS Proxy server doesn't work with JVM 1.4 (and believe me there are still a lot of those around).

      Not sure you'd see it in a home situation though.

    3. Re:Beware JVM Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG a bug in the jvm! Who wouldda thunk?

    4. Re:Beware JVM Problems by twivel · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not as simple as that. Not all 1.4 versions are patched for DST, only 1.4.2_11+. Further, there is a patch level for 1.3.1 that has the DST patches as well.

      These are the java versions that natively include fixes for DST in 2007.
      1.3.1_18+
      1.4.2_11+
      1.5.0_06+

      So this means all 1.4.0 and 1.4.1 versions will not recognize DST unless you update them. Most vendors provided an update tool (tzupdater/jtzu) that can patch a variety of java versions. There is a table of available options for all vendors at: www.javasanity.org

    5. Re:Beware JVM Problems by ZOMFF · · Score: 1

      Is upgrading to 1.3.1.18 out of the question in your scenario? Or what about updating your timezone tables? (given the tzupdater utility for JVMs prior to 1.3.1.18 requires a maintenance contract, it's still an option)

      --
      Launch every sig.
    6. Re:Beware JVM Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're running Java to do anything important then the date is the least of your worries.

    7. Re:Beware JVM Problems by ewanm89 · · Score: 1

      Microshit compatibility then!

  10. Let the circus begin by phoenixwade · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the media has been touting this as the next Y2K. Just think, a week from now, we'll be commenting on all the articles documenting the plans falling from the sky, governments folding, stock markets crashing and burning. Toasters and Microwave ovens slaughtering entire familys before they escape to live in cross breed sin near Three mile Island and Chernobyl.

    My only regret was that I didn't milk that last consultant fee from a client before my router ran me over and stole my truck.

    --
    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    1. Re:Let the circus begin by mhall119 · · Score: 1

      Just think, a week from now, we'll be commenting on all the articles documenting the plans falling from the sky, governments folding, stock markets crashing and burning. Toasters and Microwave ovens slaughtering entire familys before they escape to live in cross breed sin near Three mile Island and Chernobyl.

      Or fighter jets losing all navigation and communication systems mid-flight?
      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    2. Re:Let the circus begin by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      It is typical American. When the DST rules changed here in Europe a decade ago, nobody made any fuss about it. Microsoft did not even release a fix that would handle the future rule change, one was forced to apply a patch at the correct time. Linux of course was not affected, it already had a reasonable TZ library back then.

  11. Shouldn't that be... by Glowing+Fish · · Score: 1

    Shouldn't that be the Y2K7DST Bug?
    Or can we come up with an even more involved name?

    --
    Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
    1. Re:Shouldn't that be... by Bob54321 · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't that be the Y2K7DST Bug?
      Or can we come up with an even more involved name?

      Well, actually spelling out the words would be a start...
      --
      :(){ :|:& };:
  12. Late in the game? by XenoPhage · · Score: 1

    Can someone please explain to me why it has taken so long to get these patches out? From an OS level, isn't this simply a tzdata patch? (Not sure what the equivalent on Windows is).. This doesn't seem like such a huge issue to me. If the logic of the higher level programs is hard coded, then it's hardly the fault of the OS to deal with that.

    I've been watching people here at work going crazy as they realize that every router, switch, server, and voice switch in the network needs to be updated by next week. And the patches for most of these devices *JUST* came out last week! That's hardly time to test! I guess we blindly jump into the fray and hope that the vendor got it right the first time, eh?

    *sigh* This was known about a while ago. August 8, 2005 is when the bill was passed. That's a year and a half ago! Long enough that patches should have been out for months now. Apparently we learned nothing from Y2K ...

    *sigh*

    --
    XenoPhage
    Technological Musings
    1. Re:Late in the game? by Iphtashu+Fitz · · Score: 1

      Virtually all the versions of linux my company is using in production already contains the correct tzdata. (Centos 4.2 & later, RHEL 4 & later, etc.) The versions of Java we've also been using for close to a year are also properly updated. Sun has provided a program to test older versions of java and patch them if necessary. It's on their website for download.

      We're not all that concerned about network devices like firewalls, switches, etc. The only time sensitive data they have are logs, and since we use a centralized syslog server that's already up-to-date it's not a major issue for us. Our switch/firewall vendors provide information on setting up custom timezone settings, which means its a fairly simple thing to change. No need to apply patches that could impact performance or behavior.

    2. Re:Late in the game? by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

      Can someone please explain to me why it has taken so long to get these patches out? From an OS level, isn't this simply a tzdata patch? (Not sure what the equivalent on Windows is).. This doesn't seem like such a huge issue to me. If the logic of the higher level programs is hard coded, then it's hardly the fault of the OS to deal with that.

      Forget patches. I wonder why anyone is still building systems that have DST hard-coded into them. DST definitions vary by country and can be changed by government action. Even in the US, DST definitions were changed less than 20 years ago.

      --
      I am not a crackpot.
    3. Re:Late in the game? by rwhiffen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny thing about the 'act' that was passed is it has a clause about congressional review. So at some point, congress could have said "This is stupid" and undone the DST change. Everyone was waiting for the fall session to start, I suspect, to ensure the DST change was going to stick.

      Further, if your running Solaris it's not just a TZ patch. There's libc changes:

      http://src.opensolaris.org/source/diff/onnv/onnv-g ate/usr/src/lib/libc/port/gen/localtime.c?r1=1138& r2=0

      There's also glibc issues in RHEL 2.1 but they're not quite the same as Solaris.
      http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_41_9949

      Cheers,
      Rich

    4. Re:Late in the game? by operagost · · Score: 1

      HP refused to release the OpenVMS patches until late last year, and even then they put in a bomb to abort the installation if the system date wasn't in 2007. Supposedly, this was to keep people from installing the patch before the 2006 DST-STD time switch. But that doesn't make any sense because two out of the three versions of VMS that were patched use the standard tables, which include historical data so that even if you wanted to party like it's 1999 the date would switch properly.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    5. Re:Late in the game? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another reason to not use solaris. What else do they hardcode in for no reason?

    6. Re:Late in the game? by sg7jimr · · Score: 1

      Virtually all the versions of linux my company is using in production already contains the correct tzdata I originally was under that mistaken impression myself. In fact that is not true, because the Canadian provinces adopted the changes later and not all at once. To be sure you're covered you need to patch pretty much everything earlier then RHEL 5. OK, maybe you don't care about the time zones in Canada. But you were potentially headed for an insensitive clod comment, and many people do need to be concerned with the rest of North America.

    7. Re:Late in the game? by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Long enough that patches should have been out for months now.

      On a Fedora Core 3 machine I manage, /etc/localtime has a November, 2005, timestamp. It displays the correct DST settings for 2007 when parsed with zdump. So I guess somebody was paying attention when the bill was passed. That's sixteen months if I counted correctly.

  13. Stupid saying... by advocate_one · · Score: 1

    "Spring forward, Fall back"... you could just as easily say "Spring back, Fall forward" and get yourself totally confused. The mnemonic is plain daft... it should be something that is memorable and doesn't make sense the other way round...

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    1. Re:Stupid saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when does anybody 'spring back'? Sure, the sentence is grammatically legitimate either way, but it is definitely more plausible to spring forwards than backwards.

    2. Re:Stupid saying... by operagost · · Score: 1
      How often do you hear of someone springing backward or falling forward? But there are many instances where someone falls back (retreats) or springs forward.

      Springing backward seems to have a high risk for injury...

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    3. Re:Stupid saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Spring forward, Fall back"... you could just as easily say "Spring back, Fall forward" and get yourself totally confused.
      You get yourself totally confused a lot, don't you? What was it like riding the short bus to school?
    4. Re:Stupid saying... by Cheapy · · Score: 1

      Last time I checked, one "springs" forward. As in jumps forward. And one "falls" backwards. I'm not quite sure how one would "spring" backwards. Although that would be highly amusing to watch on youtube.

      --
      Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
    5. Re:Stupid saying... by Forseti · · Score: 1

      "Spring forward, Fall back"... you could just as easily say "Spring back, Fall forward"

      The Mnemonic isn't arbitrary, it's based on an old tactic of soldiers on the front. You spring forward to attack, and then fall back to your trenches. A lot of people around the time when DST was invented would have been familiar enough with the concept for the mnemonic to work...

      --
      Delay is preferable to error. (Thomas Jefferson)
    6. Re:Stupid saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you're startled you might spring back. This is my primary language, and I'm not just some unread fool, but the only reason I see that it is more plausible to spring forwards in a given sentence is that I know that's how it works for daylight savings.

    7. Re:Stupid saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a glass falls and shatters in front of you, are you going to stand there and let it lacerate your feet? Or are you going to... wait for it... spring backward? :-P

    8. Re:Stupid saying... by crabpeople · · Score: 1

      You cant spring back thats retarded.

      --
      I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
    9. Re:Stupid saying... by onemorechip · · Score: 1
      Springing backward seems to have a high risk for injury...


      Like arriving at work two hours late?

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    10. Re:Stupid saying... by LibertarianWackJob · · Score: 1

      I fell off a bar stool once. I don't remember if it was forwards or backwards.

      --
      What? ®
    11. Re:Stupid saying... by WK2 · · Score: 1

      I agree that it is not the best saying, and can work both ways.

      You can spring forward, like in jumping forward. When you push down on a spring, it automatically springs back.

      You can fall backward. I've done that. You can also fall forward. I do that way more often.

      Think of beating someone up. You spring forward towards them. You're a nerd, so when they punch you, you fall down backwards. The other guy is big and dumb, so he's not going to use tactics to use your spring against you. But you're a puny nerd so he doesn't have to.

      Hope that either clarifies things or confuses you more.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
  14. DST in Australia by mab · · Score: 1

    Australia went though this last year and as far as I know it went smoothly http://www.sbsusers.org/melbourne/alerts7.htm

    1. Re:DST in Australia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It went terribly.

      The state government involved passed the legislation just a few days before the change was due to take effect. There wasn't a patch for Exchange: things just broke. I don't think RIM released one either, and I doubt they were the only ones. The Australian case is a great example of how NOT to fiddle with DST.

      This changeover should have been a lot easier: the affected market is much larger and the lead time was substantial. I find it incredible that many vendors have only recently released patches. Even worse, one of the most important MS patches seems to contain unrelated code changes (KB926666 can stop your Exchange information store starting - i.e., it can break Exchange, and then requires another patch to get it working again).

    2. Re:DST in Australia by deniable · · Score: 1

      That sounds like last December in Western Australia. Two political has-beens needed to fix their image so they decided we needed DST.

      Consider waking up and having the radio tell you that we'll start doing DST on Sunday and our last "trial" was 15 years ago. I stayed unemployed for that one.

      And as for Exchange, anything can make your IS refuse to restart, and updating it can require good luck and strong nerves.

    3. Re:DST in Australia by Mr_Q_Oz · · Score: 1

      We've had several changes to DST over the last decade or so. It's never been a major issue. It rarely rates a news story (other than to let us know the dates have changed). Don't Panic! :)

      --
      -- Mr Q
  15. Solaris Test (was Re:A very simple *nix test) by jmodule · · Score: 3, Informative

    For Solaris you can still use zdump, just with a timezone entry instead of /etc/localtime:

    zdump -v US/Eastern | grep 2007

    From BigAdmin

    --
    The jModule
    1. Re:Solaris Test (was Re:A very simple *nix test) by hawg2k · · Score: 2, Informative

      In Linux:
      zdump -v /etc/localtime | grep 2007

  16. emerge -u world by garlicbready · · Score: 1

    lets see now...
    emerge -u world
    yep that should do it
    and relax

    1. Re:emerge -u world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a long time to relax before you can use your system again...

    2. Re:emerge -u world by Fez · · Score: 1

      Are you sure that will actually replace /etc/localtime? In FreeBSD, you have to run tzsetup again after building world to copy over a fresh /etc/localtime from the updated zoneinfo files. Being from Indiana, when we switched to using DST last year the updated zoneinfo files already had the 2007 changes in them. I had to do nothing to any of my servers this year. Whee.

      That's what I call relaxing. :)

    3. Re:emerge -u world by garlicbready · · Score: 1

      I think under Gentoo it's just a shortcut to a file in a different location
      but okay then
      emerge -u world
      run the etc-update script (just to be safe)
      and now relax :)

    4. Re:emerge -u world by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Pita@Pita:~$ ls -l /etc/localtime
      lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 31 2006-03-27 11:33 /etc/localtime -> /usr/share/zoneinfo/US/Mountain

      It's a symlink. Makes it a lot easier than dealing with copying over with that tzinfo stuff.

    5. Re:emerge -u world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That will work, but if you don't feel like recompiling glibc and every application that depends on it, just "emerge timezone-data", and depending on your version of glibc...

      2.3.5-r3 or newer (late '05 I believe): You're done.

      Older than 2.3.5-r3: Backup /etc/localtime and then replace it with a symlink to the proper file in /usr/share/zoneinfo

      You can then upgrade glibc at your convenience and not worry about DST.

    6. Re:emerge -u world by corychristison · · Score: 1

      I think you missed something:
      # emerge --sync --quiet
      # emerge -u world
      # etc-update

      Now you relax. :-P

    7. Re:emerge -u world by Fez · · Score: 1

      Ah, that could be handy. Although there are situations where you do not want symlinks to be followed.

      I don't mind it being a separate copy, especially since /etc is in /, which is a different filesystem on 99% of my servers than /usr. I'd hate for anything in /etc to explicitly rely on /usr being available. Although if my /usr volume is gone, I probably have bigger problems than the local clock. :)

      Both ways get the job done, so I suppose it's really a matter of preference. Either way, thanks for clarifying that point.

    8. Re:emerge -u world by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cannot find latest timezone DST patch, Please update portage....

          emerge portage

          Cannot find latest portage package, Please update portage....

  17. How may we help you? by djupedal · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Hello - this is Manny and I will be your corporate level support concierge for this session - how may I help you?"
    "Oh, Hi Manny, this is Stuart and I'm at our corporate IT HQ. We need help with the new DST configuration, please."

    "Ok, Stuart, I'll be happy to provide whatever help I can, if you will just tell me the name of the corporation you're with, along with the contract ID and your callback number, you can hang up and I'll call you back so we can get things started."
    "Ummm...Manny...excuse me, but I've never quite understood why you people always ask for the name of the corporation right off...what's up with that, if I may ask?"

    "Well, Stuart, in our effort to provide the best quality service, we need to know upfront which company we are serving so we can insure that our responses fit with such things as non-disclosures, corporate culture, etc. As an example, since this incident deals with DST, if you are with Siemens, we're instructed to use twenty-four hour time, such as the time now being sixteen-forty-two hundred hours. If you are with Hertz Car Rental, the time is four forty-two pm."

    "Oh, I see. Well, I'm with Microsoft, Manny, so what does the system say you should tell me?"
    "Microsoft - I see. Well, Stuart, the big hand is on the four and the little hand is......."

    1. Re:How may we help you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      "Microsoft - I see. Well, Stuart, the big hand is on the four and the little hand is......."

      If it's 4:42, wouldn't the big hand be closer to the 8?

    2. Re:How may we help you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's actually 4:20, but the operator is now too stoned to know what time it is.

    3. Re:How may we help you? by djupedal · · Score: 1

      Manny's script says that Stuart requires a subtle sobriety test each time he calls in...if Stuart responds with anything but a genuine sounding "huh?" at this point in the conversation, the call is escalated and put on hold while a local representative goes out to Stuart's location so that blood and urine samples can be obtained and put on file in the event of legal proceedings.

      Tune in next time when Stuart calls Manny for help while attempting to program speed dialing on new corporate VIP mobile phones... "Stuart??? How'd you get my home phone number...???"

  18. How to verify whether your system is up to date by E-Lad · · Score: 3, Informative
    Use the zdump command:

    zdump -v [timezone] | grep 2007
    If your systems's zoneinfo files are up to date, you'll get output showing DST changes on March 11 and November 4, eg:

    $ zdump -v EST5EDT | grep 2007
    EST5EDT Tue Mar 6 13:59:24 2007 UTC = Tue Mar 6 08:59:24 2007 EST isdst=0
    EST5EDT Sun Mar 11 06:59:59 2007 UTC = Sun Mar 11 01:59:59 2007 EST isdst=0
    EST5EDT Sun Mar 11 07:00:00 2007 UTC = Sun Mar 11 03:00:00 2007 EDT isdst=1
    EST5EDT Sun Nov 4 05:59:59 2007 UTC = Sun Nov 4 01:59:59 2007 EDT isdst=1
    EST5EDT Sun Nov 4 06:00:00 2007 UTC = Sun Nov 4 01:00:00 2007 EST isdst=0
    That same command has worked for me on Solaris, Linux systems, and MacOS X.
    1. Re:How to verify whether your system is up to date by noc007 · · Score: 1

      The command works on our FreeBSD systems as well.

    2. Re:How to verify whether your system is up to date by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I figured I'd chime in and add that this may not work. You'll want to make sure your /etc/localtime is either an up-to-date copy of your zone file, or a link to your /usr/share/zoneinfo file.

      I thought I was OK on my Slackware systems until I realized my /etc/localtime was an old copy.

      A better command would be: zdump -v /etc/localtime | grep 2007

    3. Re:How to verify whether your system is up to date by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using the original command (EST5EDT) I received the correct dates and times. However, if I substitute CST5CDT or MST5MDT, or PST5PDT, I get the old DST dates. By using parent poster's command (/etc/localtime) I received the correct dates and times.

    4. Re:How to verify whether your system is up to date by stickyc · · Score: 1
      If I do

      $ zdump -v /etc/localtime | grep 2007

      I still get the old format, even though

      $ zdump -v US/Pacific | grep 2007

      shows the new March dates. Does that mean my machine is not updated? What do I still need do?
  19. A problem with DST in general by Bigmilt8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Actually this isn't a problem with any OS or the computer industry. It is a problem with Daylight Savings Time. Man has been telling time for centuries and it wasn't until the DST mess that we started having issues. This is on the same lines as the US not using the metric system.

    1. Re:A problem with DST in general by westlake · · Score: 3, Informative
      Man has been telling time for centuries and it wasn't until the DST mess that we started having issues.

      For most of human history, time meant local solar time, or time by the moon and stars. It isn't until the mid 18th C. that the "longitude problem" is solved by the invention of precision marine chronometers. It isn't until the mid 19th C. that the "standard time" demanded by the telegraph, the railroad, trade and industry, intrudes on the lives of ordinary people.

  20. Looks like I'm screwed then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2006"
    date: illegal option -- -
    usage: date [-jnu] [-d dst] [-r seconds] [-t west] [-v[+|-]val[ymwdHMS]] ...
                            [-f fmt date | [[[[[cc]yy]mm]dd]HH]MM[.ss]] [+format]
    $ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2007"
    date: illegal option -- -
    usage: date [-jnu] [-d dst] [-r seconds] [-t west] [-v[+|-]val[ymwdHMS]] ...
                            [-f fmt date | [[[[[cc]yy]mm]dd]HH]MM[.ss]] [+format]

    1. Re:Looks like I'm screwed then by forrestt · · Score: 5, Funny

      You're posting to Slashdot about a problem with a date? And you think you're gonna get screwed? I'm not sure if this is redundant or wishful thinking. :)

    2. Re:Looks like I'm screwed then by fimbulvetr · · Score: 1

      He's gonna get screwed by being scewed!

  21. Y2K7DSTOMGWTFBBQApocalypse!!!!!1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    There. That should do it.

  22. To see if you're patched... by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 1

    To see if you're all set, do this:

    $ zdump -v America/New_York | grep 2007
    America/New_York Sun Mar 11 06:59:59 2007 UTC = Sun Mar 11 01:59:59 2007 EST isdst=0 gmtoff=-18000
    America/New_York Sun Mar 11 07:00:00 2007 UTC = Sun Mar 11 03:00:00 2007 EDT isdst=1 gmtoff=-14400
    America/New_York Sun Nov 4 05:59:59 2007 UTC = Sun Nov 4 01:59:59 2007 EDT isdst=1 gmtoff=-14400
    America/New_York Sun Nov 4 06:00:00 2007 UTC = Sun Nov 4 01:00:00 2007 EST isdst=0 gmtoff=-18000

    Substitute your timezone name as appropriate. Look for March 11 and November 4 in the output.

    --
    Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
  23. Setting DST on older RedHat systems by yuna49 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have some servers running RH 7.3 for which there are no rpm-based updates that I could find (fedoralegacy having closed down). I followed the instructions in the article to update /usr/share/zoneinfo, but that alone doesn't do the trick. The file /etc/localtime on these systems is a static binary, not a link to /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/New_York or whatever's appropriate for your timezone. The fix is simply to delete /etc/localtime and create a symlink with the same name to the correct zone data in /usr/share/zoneinfo.

    1. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by kilgortrout · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tip. Older versions of mandrake/mandriva have the same problem. I was wondering why the method described in the article didn't work. Deleting /etc/localtime and creating a new /etc/localtime link per your post fixed the problem.

    2. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's also a good idea to download the tzcode*.tar.gz file from the FTP server in the article, and re-compile that and use the zic it produces rather than using your system's zic. I had this issue, and it didn't update properly with my system's zic, but it was fine when I compiled and used the one in tzcode*.tar.gz.

    3. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by jimjohnson · · Score: 1

      I ran into the same problem with FC2. I fixed it by using 'system-config-date' to change to a different timezone, exit, and then rerun 'system-config-date' to switch back to your correct timezone. I think that the same fix would work for old RH as well.

    4. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by opkool · · Score: 1

      I have some RH 7.3 too and they all are fine.

      Just use the FedoraLegacy rpm package ( http://fedoralegacy.org/download/fedoralegacy-mirr ors.php)
      glibc-2.2.5-44.legacy.8

      Do it quick, as Fedora Legacy Project ( http://fedoralegacy.org/ )is closing shop.

      Peace!

    5. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I think that this procedure is the same as the one the installer uses where it copies the designated binary timezone data to /etc/localtime.

      I honestly don't understand why the configuration scripts don't just create a symlink for /etc/localtime as I described. Creating a static version of /etc/localtime doesn't make much sense if timezone data is dependent on changing political whims. Why not just use a link and update the data in /usr/share/zoneinfo as needed?

    6. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by jimjohnson · · Score: 1

      You're right, I just diffed my localtime and the zoneinfo files and they're identical. Your symlink solution does sound like a more flexible/elegant solution.

    7. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by kindbud · · Score: 1

      The file /etc/localtime on these systems is a static binary, not a link to /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/New_York or whatever's appropriate for your timezone.

      It's actually a copy of the zoneinfo file for the time zone you specified at install time. It should have been a link, but RH's installer is, well, a work in progress, shall we say. That's why the instructions you see tell you to use "ln -sf" to replace /etc/localtime with the link, in case it already exists.

      --
      Edith Keeler Must Die
    8. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by RuneB · · Score: 1

      /etc/localtime isn't a symlink because /usr doesn't have to be on the root filesystem, and thus a symlink to /usr/share/zoneinfo wouldn't work too well when /usr isn't mounted.

      --
      dtach - A tiny program that emulates the detach feat
    9. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by cortana · · Score: 1

      Many distros to copy the chozen zoneinfo file over to /etc/localtime rather than creating a symbolic link. /etc/localtime being a symlink causes problems if the filesystem containing the target of the link is not mounted.

      For example, during boot up, before /usr is mounted, /etc/localtime can not be read if it is a symlink to somewhere under /usr/share/zoneinfo.

    10. Re:Setting DST on older RedHat systems by yuna49 · · Score: 1

      Ah, of course. If I could use my mod points in this discussion, I'd have modded you up.

      It does appear that the timezone is set in /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit before /usr is mounted. Well the symlink seemed like a good idea, but that's clearly bad advice on systems that mount /usr separately. Nowadays most distros I've used like Fedora seem just to create a single / partition by default. But I certainly have other machines with a separate /usr partition; guess I'd better copy a few timezone files.

  24. I alwasy thought that too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never made sense.

  25. The short answer... by pla · · Score: 3, Informative

    Skipping all the crap and presuming you have an older distro that doesn't to automatic updates, I'll summarize the steps needed (Do this at your own risk, but it should work on any even remotely standard distro, even very old ones):

    cd /tmp
    wget --passive-ftp ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/tzdata2007c.tar.gz
    tar -xzvf tzdata2007c.tar.gz
    zic northamerica
    ln -sf /usr/share/zoneinfo/EST5EDT /etc/localtime

    If you live outside the civilized world, insert the appropriate time zone in place of EST5EDT. ;-)

    And finally, verify it with:
    zdump -v /etc/localtime | grep 2007
    Which should say "Mar 11" and "Nov 4"

  26. DST has its place. by lstellar · · Score: 0

    The theory behind the new DST is, in fact, intelligent and a positive sign in this otherwise bleak administration.

    As for the affect on the IT industry, here where I work as a developer at a large international Fortune 500 company (think: German) it was a simple three step fix that retrofitted all Outlook appointments (or any other applicable piece of software) with the new timing, and patched the computer for the future. The process was easy (even the sales reps figured it out) and the energy payout in the long run (years and years of saving daylight) more than warrant the *slight* hassle.

    --
    art is science made clear. -cocteau
  27. It probably should by Kludge · · Score: 1

    NTP does not keep track of time zones, though it would be useful if it did. Having all this time zone information stored on every computer going out of date is pretty dumb. It would be more intelligent to have only the name of the current time zone stored on each computer and all the time zone info stored on a central NIST time server. Then one person maintaining that database would be all the world would need.

    1. Re:It probably should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you suggest to have a server that clients can check for changes to time zones that is stored in a standard format.

      So we could use HTTP, POSIX tz files...

      Wait, that's a package management system! We've got tons of those.

    2. Re:It probably should by TheSkyIsPurple · · Score: 1

      And hopefully avoid confusion like wehave now...

      The time zones "(GMT-8)Pacific; Tijuana" and "(GMT-8)Tijuana" are now different. (or will be in a week)

      I wasted about 6 hours of testing, frustrated that the patches weren't working on a Windows test environment before noticing that I had teh wrong timezone. (And I'm only a short drive from Tijuana...)

    3. Re:It probably should by Viol8 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And what happens if someone if one country/state wants to connect to an NTP server in another? If that NTP server only gives its local time then that computer will get the wrong time and if it gives all timezone times then not only will it send FAR more data but you'll STILL have to set the timezone in your machine anyway so it can select the correct one from NTP.

      So I'm afraid your idea is a non starter.

    4. Re:It probably should by Kludge · · Score: 1

      Wait, that's a package management system! We've got tons of those.

      Yeah, that's a simple cross-platform solution.

      I'm talking about a system where you give it your location, and it gives you the standard time at that location. It's not really that complicated. There are lots of web pages that do that for you. The advantage of NTP is that it runs in the background and is much more accurate than http.

    5. Re:It probably should by pe1chl · · Score: 1

      Timezone borders are not simple lines (meridians) but follow local state borders. So there is no simple formula to convert position to timezone.

      An NTP server (or client) does not know its position so it cannot do this easily. It could be done in a GPS receiver server like gpsd.
      However, for a practical implementation that does not cause more problems than it solves, it would have to contact an external server on Internet to perform the actual lookup.

  28. Just hire a few brazilians by pazu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's pretty funny all this fuss about DST changes. Here in Brazil we had to cope with DST changes almost every year for the last 20 years, and by now we pretty much got used to it, on our daily lives and when developing or maintaining computer systems. Every system administration knows that he'll have to update the tz database year, or update the Windows registry accordingly.

    I guess that's proof that in adversity, we thrive. Thanks to the screwed up economy we had a few decades ago, we know have one of the most advanced banking systems in the world. Thanks to retarded DST policies, we learned how to adapt from that :)

    --
    Close the world, open the NeXT
    1. Re:Just hire a few brazilians by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Wow. What's the reasoning behind changing the DST so often?

      --
  29. For Slackware 11 users... by Noryungi · · Score: 1

    This change is covered in the glibc-zoneinfo-2.3.6-noarch-7_slack11.0.tgz package, which you can fetch from most Slackware mirrors.

    Just thought I'd drop that tidbit of information if there is another Slackware user around here...

    --
    The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    1. Re:For Slackware 11 users... by Skater · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, we're here, but we already installed the update without fanfare and are now chuckling at the angst in some of the posts in this article. :)

      In fact, my server is still running 10.2 and Patrick has released a patch for that version as well, and probably a few others.

    2. Re:For Slackware 11 users... by Noryungi · · Score: 1

      Yeah, we're here, but we already installed the update without fanfare and are now chuckling at the angst in some of the posts in this article. :)

      I should have guessed... :-)

      In fact, my server is still running 10.2 and Patrick has released a patch for that version as well, and probably a few others.

      Yep, The Man is still on top of things.
      --
      The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
    3. Re:For Slackware 11 users... by tjw · · Score: 1

      In fact, my server is still running 10.2 and Patrick has released a patch for that version as well, and probably a few others.

      Pat is currently putting out security/maintenance patches for all releases 8.1 through 11.0. I still have one 9.0 server so I'm very thankful for the timely security updates it gets.

      File: ANNOUNCE.8_1 9 KB 06/19/2002 12:00:00 AM

      It's also nice to get the descriptive email notification of each patch from the slackware-security email list

      --

      XJS*C4JDBQADN1.NSBN3*2IDNEN*GTUBE-STANDARD-ANTI-UB E-TEST-EMAIL*C.34X
  30. I don't even have that many options. by oyenstikker · · Score: 1

    $ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2007"
    date: illegal option -- -
    date: illegal option -- d
    date: invalid argument -- te=Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2007
    usage: date [-u] mmddHHMM[[cc]yy][.SS]
                    date [-u] [+format]
                    date -a [-]sss[.fff]

    --
    The masses are the crack whores of religion.
    1. Re:I don't even have that many options. by sarathmenon · · Score: 1

      I dont think you are running this on linux that uses gnu coreutils - chances are

      1. *BSD/Solaris/whatever
      2. ulibc based embedded system.

      --
      Microsoft: "You've got questions. We've got dancing paperclips."
  31. Think of Canada, eh by RabidMonkey · · Score: 1

    We've run into this situation with three of our vendors (HP, Novell and Redhat) where they released patches for DST a while ago (last fall and before), but didn't include the Canadian timezone fixes. Novell has finally released a patch that updates Canadian timezones, and we've got it going on a Redhat box as well, but I heard our HP-UX people are still waiting.

    So, if you're Canadian, or have boxes in Canadia, make sure the patch you applied will handle the Canadian timezone rules.

    "zdump -v Canada/Eastern | grep 2007" and "zic -l Canada/Eastern" is now forever stuck in my brain from all the testing.

    Todd.

    --
    We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
    1. Re:Think of Canada, eh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even though I am an atheist, I thank god every day that I live in Saskatchewan.
      By the time the assholes who want to golf 'til all hours get their way here
      I'm sure the DST transition problem will be fixed. Then I can feel sorry for
      all the parents who can't get their kids to bed in the summer 'cause it's still
      light at 10:30 and have to send them off to school in the pitch dark in the Spring
      and Fall. :(

    2. Re:Think of Canada, eh by sg7jimr · · Score: 1
      Part of the reason the patches didn't include the changes was that at the time they were created the provinces hadn't decided to go along yet.

      Would be a lot simpler if they'd just pass a law saying they'll follow any changes the US makes to DST no matter how stupid (and this one is very stupid), because it seems like a foregone conclusion that they'll follow along for "business reasons".

      No offense intended to Canadians and no implication that Canada should not function as a sovereign nation...it just my life would have been a lot easier if this had been decided earlier. I had to patch so many more systems because of how late some Canadian areas were added.

  32. I'm worried... by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I have an international flight on Monday the 12th.

    I'm coming four hours early.

    --
    It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
    1. Re:I'm worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm coming four hours early. Don't the commercials warn you to seek medical treatment for that?
    2. Re:I'm worried... by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      I have an international flight on Monday the 12th.
      I'm coming four hours early.
      You're adding an extra two hours? At worst wouldn't it be off by one hour?
      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    3. Re:I'm worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have an international flight on Monday the 12th.
      I'm coming four hours early.


      That would be dumb. Aircraft departures & arrivals are always listed in local time.

    4. Re:I'm worried... by Valar · · Score: 1

      *sigh* Look, for my peer posts that don't get this at all, he isn't saying he's showing up way early because he's afraid his plane might leave (OMG, I forgot it is daylights savings time! OMG!). He's probably concerned that with all of the software that needs to be updated, airports are likely to be a cluster fuck. Imagine, for instance, trying to check in at the front desk while the computer there thinks it is a different time than it actually is. Your flight isn't on the list of flights that are in the next couple of hours. Instead, the staffperson has to manually search for the flight by keying in destination, time, etc. Multiply this by the number of people in line, and you can easily see cascading delays.

  33. Recent? It was two years ago... by binaryspiral · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It was two years ago that this was signed into affect... this shouldn't be the rush that Microsoft, Cisco, and all the rest are making it. Slackers wasted one and a half years doing almost nothing... and now we get this.

  34. wrong by Reality+Master+201 · · Score: 1

    If you're writing a scheduling system, you want everything in UTC. Cause it's independent of locale.

    For display purposes, you display a time that's appropriate to the user's locale. If you're concerned about historical
    data, you have your display be intelligent enough to know that the DST switch happened in 2007.

    1. Re:wrong by tuffy · · Score: 1

      That depends on what you're scheduling, though. If you're scheduling an event "30 days from right now", storing the time as UTC is appropriate. But if you're scheduling a meeting at "3PM, March 20, 2007", UTC is not the way to go. You should be adding the local time zone to that date/time (e.g. "US/Central") which avoids hard-coding whether it's DST or not and allows smooth conversion to other time zones.

      --

      Ita erat quando hic adveni.

  35. Impeach Bush! by Black-Man · · Score: 1

    WTF was he thinking? This has been a big cluster and has sucked IT resources for the past month.

  36. Try this by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    date -d "Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2006"
    date -d "Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2007"

    Paste it to a gnome terminal.

  37. You can blame reagan for that nightmare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The 60's and 70's education prepared america to cut over to metric. Carter signed the bill in 1982, we were to move America over to it. Then reagan said it would cause too many issues. Gads, that guy was a PISS POOR leader who has caused this country trillions of dollars. I thank god that in another 50 years, historians will be able to look over his crap and will almost certainly decide that he was one of the worse pres. that America had. I only wish that the republicans would get over their demigod status of the man.

    1. Re:You can blame reagan for that nightmare by profplump · · Score: 1

      Did Regan stop Canada and the UK from converting to metric too? Last time I checked there's still common use of imperial units in both places. Canada has at least embraced the change governmentally, so you could argue that they've done all they can, but those MPH speed limits in the UK don't seem terribly metric to me, and they aren't the only example.

    2. Re:You can blame reagan for that nightmare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Carter signed the bill in 1982, we were to move America over to it.
      Carter had no authority to sign bills in 1982 as he stopped being president at the time of noon on Jan 20, 1981 as per the 20th Amendment.

      Or were you talking about 1982, Greenwich Mean Year? :)
    3. Re:You can blame reagan for that nightmare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, yes he did. The majority of Canadian uses of imperial units are meant for interoperability with our largest trading partner, the United States (including in the media), albeit sometimes indirectly (you buy something in inches not because you specifically want the American product, but because they also bulk-sell to Americans that need imperial units, and they are the larger market). Aside from that, some people who grew up on the imperial system are also still very used to it, which is to be expected in any country in the world.

      I can't say why Britain is weird about it.

    4. Re:You can blame reagan for that nightmare by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I thank god that in another 50 years, historians will be able to look over his crap and will almost certainly decide that he was one of the worse pres. that America had.

      You're kidding, right? In 50 years, if western civilization even still exists, any problems caused by Reagan will be so overshadowed by Bush II's reign of terror that they'll be "lost in the noise".

    5. Re:You can blame reagan for that nightmare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, yes he did. The majority of Canadian uses of imperial units are meant for interoperability with our largest trading partner, the United States (including in the media),


      That's like blaming my choice to use Verizon Wireless on my friends and family.

      albeit sometimes indirectly (you buy something in inches not because you specifically want the American product, but because they also bulk-sell to Americans that need imperial units, and they are the larger market).


      Ah. So not only is 33 million Canadians too small of a market to benefit from economies of scale, but apparently as an American I've never bought any metric or dual-system tools or measures!

      Aside from that, some people who grew up on the imperial system are also still very used to it, which is to be expected in any country in the world.


      So you're saying it is not Reagan's fault?

  38. How to make sure your linux systems are ready: by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

    $packagemanager $updaterepository && $packagemanager $installupdates

    Or a real-world example for gentoo, which takes approx. 15 minutes:
    emerge --sync && emerge -u tzcode tzdata

    1. Re:How to make sure your linux systems are ready: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      emerge -u tzcode tzdata You obviously don't know what you're talking about. If you knew anything about Gentoo, you'd realize that no such packages exist in Portage. The February 12, 2007 Gentoo Weekly Newsletter already mentioned what package needs to be updated regarding this matter:

      The United States passed a bill to extend Daylight Savings Time. Due to this change, some users need to ensure they have the new time zone information to keep their computer's clocks accurate. For our users in the United States, please make sure you have updated to at least version 2006p of sys-libs/timezone-data on or before 11 March. Do the world a favor and be quiet.
    2. Re:How to make sure your linux systems are ready: by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      You know you could have just corrected me without the bile and rhetoric, Mr. Coward.

    3. Re:How to make sure your linux systems are ready: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do the world (and your processor) a favor and stop using gentoo :P

  39. intelliadmin - free DST tool for windows systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For those of you who do not wish to click your self to death, Intelliadmin.com has a free graphical tool ( up to 3 workstations at a time, 4+ more will cost you. )

    I do not work for, own or otherwise benefit from mentioning this product. I just used it and was happy with it.

  40. Twelve is even better by overshoot · · Score: 2

    That extra hour of daylight after work is seriously awesome.
    That extra hour working late, waiting for the temperature to come down to the point where you can get into your car without risking second-degree burns?
    That extra hour of hiding in your air-conditioned house waiting for the temperature to come down to the point where cooking dinner won't run up the bill for the whole month?
    That extra hour of waiting for it to cool off enough that you can get some chores done without risking heatstroke?

    And don't forget:
    The one less hour before work at the only time of day when you can actually go outside for more than a brief dash?
    The one less hour before work when you can do chores without risking heatstroke?
    The one less hour before work when you might even (briefly) enjoy being outside during the early spring and early fall?

    Yeah, great idea. Keep people inside with the AC cranked up. That sure saves the country energy.

    --
    Lacking <sarcasm> tags, /. substitutes moderation as "Troll."
    1. Re:Twelve is even better by hansamurai · · Score: 1

      I live in Minnesota you insensitive clod!

  41. RealTimeIsUniversal by GodWasAnAlien · · Score: 1


    Search for RealTimeIsUniversal.

    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/mswish/ut-rtc.html

    Though, the registry setting is still not officially supported.

    1. Re:RealTimeIsUniversal by livewire98801 · · Score: 1

      I use that on my notebook (tryboot WinXP, MacOSx86, FC6), and it's pretty unreliable. My system clock is correct at boot, but after a couple of hours it resets. I've started ignoring it (only use Win for casual games and verifying formatting in word documents), because it will correct itself after a while or on next boot.

      --
      "He may be mad, but there's method in his madness. [...] It's what drives men mad, being methodical." G.K.Chesterton
    2. Re:RealTimeIsUniversal by xsbellx · · Score: 1

      Though, the registry setting is still not officially supported.
      Did you even read the link you mentioned in your post? The entry WAS officially supported for RISC architecture systems way back. From your link:

      2001-07-09: I got a reply from someone in Microsoft's Base Kernel Team who got interested in RealTimeIsUniversal and they had a look at the relevant parts of the NT kernel source code. The RealTimeIsUniversal flag is there (a leftover from the days when NT still ran on RISC machines with UTC RTCs), but its implementation seems now incomplete and it is currently not covered by Microsoft's documentation and regression test suite, therefore using it is not recommended at this time. You may also want to try the following link and check out the results:
      http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Amicros oft.com+RealTimeIsUniversal
      --
      If VISTA is the answer, you didn't understand the question
  42. F-22 Raptor by AndyST · · Score: 1

    They better not have any F-22 Raptor flying until those patches have been rolled out...

    1. Re:F-22 Raptor by WK2 · · Score: 1

      For the last time (yeah right), jets are not affected by local time. They use UTC. The F-22 probably had a problem with jumping onto the other side of the planet in a split second where the screen folds.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
  43. Don't forget Java by twivel · · Score: 1

    Due to the widespread use of Java with enterprise applications, there is a huge issue with Java and DST as well. This article provides good info on how you can fix DST for Java as well. Pretty much every version of Java installed before December of 06 is vulnerable, as the whole java community seems to have been behind on fixing this problem.

    The following link provides good information for patching Java from the 4 major java providers.

    http://www.javasanity.org/article/3/dst-and-java-d ont-panic-it-can-be-fixed

  44. Even better by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

    Just program clocks to adjust the time so that the sun rises at the exact same time every morning.

  45. Re:A very simple *nix test - Ubuntu Shines (Again) by awpoopy · · Score: 0

    Thank You Debian and Ubuntu mybox:~$ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2006" Sat Mar 25 07:00:00 PST 2006 mybox:~$ date --date="Mar 25 15:00:00 UTC 2007" Sun Mar 25 08:00:00 PDT 2007

    --
    I say things which affects my Karma negatively. (and I don't care) For instance; All religion is false.
  46. Windows-only "Y2DST" bugs by GodWasAnAlien · · Score: 3, Informative

    If events are scheduled using UTC, then timezone and dst make no difference.

    But if Outlook has "Y2DST" bugs, it stores or assumes that date/time is in local time, so events may be wrong if DST or the timezone of your server changes.

    Note that these bugs if they exist could be reproduced otherwise by changing the timezone while programs are running. Events should happen at the same time, independent of timezone. (A real situation would be flying a live system/laptop to a new timezone).

    But the bug in Windows is at a low level. Windows, for backward compatibility to DOS, assumes the hardware clock is local time. Any program that depends directly on the local time here, needs more than trivial algorithms to handle timezone and DST algorithms. These algorithms will fail, obviously if DST unexpectedly changes, and are probably in general not really expecting timezone to change. ( These algorithms could be compared with Y99-Y2K algorithms that tried to convert from a two digit year).
    And obviously any programs that have such low level DST/Timezone handling code would fail if someone set the not often used RealTimeIsUniversal=1 in Windows.

    In general no program should rely on local time, internally. Local time should only be used to convey information to the user. "You appointment is at XXX in your timezone", or "What time in your timezone would you like to schedule your meeting alarm?".

    1. Re:Windows-only "Y2DST" bugs by VertigoAce · · Score: 1

      That's a fine solution, except that most people schedule appointments with respect to local time. I want a meeting at 4pm here and whatever time that is for people who are calling in (scheduled for some day in the extended DST period). Outlook/Exchange convert 4pm to the appropriate UTC time. After I send that out to everyone, some people's machines get patched, including mine. It now displays that meeting as occuring at 5pm since it stored the time as UTC. Since most people at that meeting are in my timezone and leave work around 5pm, I have to move the meeting time (ie I need to adjust the UTC time for the meeting).

      To add to the confusion, people who already patched their machine always saw the meeting at 5pm local time. Without knowing if my machine was patched or not when I scheduled the meeting, they can't be sure if I meant 5pm or if it might actually be 4pm. So there is definitely room for confusion, despite the fact that I do exactly as you suggest and store everything in UTC, only using localtime for input and output.

      Most odd time problems can be solved by using UTC internally, but this is not one of them (and storing in local time creates a similar problem with meetings that are intended to occur at some specific time in UTC). The problem here is that the relationship between UTC and local time changed. An unpatched machine does a different conversion than a patched machine.

    2. Re:Windows-only "Y2DST" bugs by onemorechip · · Score: 2, Informative

      UTC doesn't solve it.

      I have a recurring meeting. It is at 11 AM Pacific Time every Tuesday, all year round.

      Do I just set it up for 1900 UTC then? No, because when DST takes over, it will be off by one hour. Instead, I set it to 11 AM local time. MS Exchange performs the adjustment and schedules this meeting (and the conference room) for 1900 UTC for the winter months, shifting it to 1800 UTC when the software thinks DST takes effect. It doesn't calculate the times on the fly; it sets up the recurrences when the original scheduling is done. If the meeting was scheduled before Exchange is updated with the new DST, then, for each occurrence between March 11 and April 1, the meeting appears in my Outlook calendar *one hour later than it should*. This is because the updated software knows that 1900 UTC (the scheduled time) is actually noon local time.

      What's more, the conference room is now available between 11 AM and noon on Tuesdays, for someone else to schedule a meeting. When IT corrects my meeting schedule for the time change (which they will, as they have advised everyone in the company not to try to do this manually), there's gonna be trouble...

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    3. Re:Windows-only "Y2DST" bugs by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Informative

      If events are scheduled using UTC, then timezone and dst make no difference.

      Given that events (such as periodic meetings) are normally scheduled in local time, that's bogus.

      In fact, having the calendaring tool store them in UTC breaks things even more. It means that the tool will convert them to UTC to store them and alarm them, then back to local time to display them. So when DST starts (even if at the EXPECTED time) a periodic meeting moves by an hour.

      DST is an unmitigated disaster for programmers who write scheduling software (as I once did for a client). Changing it compounds the problem.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    4. Re:Windows-only "Y2DST" bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Local time is fine, as long as the time zone is stored as well. Then effectively you have UTC available as well.

      So, for a recurring event you could store:
        local time
        local time zone
        local time zone standard offset
        local time zone daylight offset.

      Then, to get the actual event for a day, depending on DST, the standard or daylight offset would be subtracted from the local time to get UTC (an then converted to whatever timezone/dst the clients have).

      Of course, the offsets could just be computed dynamically, but storing them would act as a sanity check, (for situation like the current one).
      There could be an alert telling you that the time zone no longer matches the event offsets (because DST changed). Would you like to recompute these offsets?

      But you could just as well store:
        UTC time of standard time event.
        local time zone
        relative dst offset for daylight offset. (that applies during DST)

      The math will always be easier when in UTC. Think of that odd meeting that starts at 11:30PM on the eve of a DST change.

      Software engineers should notice that DST changes have been happening around the world more several times over the last 100 years. It probably wise to assume that DST and timezone could be changed in the future, by legislation or by the company moving across the state line.

    5. Re:Windows-only "Y2DST" bugs by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't the method of storing times, even at the hardware level (that is, if the CMOS clock uses localtime, UTC, a nonstandard epoch, or whatever). It's that Microsoft released a patch for the new DST rules very shortly before they came into effect. If the patch were in place a year ago, the effects would be minimal at worst.

    6. Re:Windows-only "Y2DST" bugs by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      So, I'm writing a scheduler app, and I want to schedule a recurring meeting for 11am localtime. My OS gives the local time via a library call, localtime(3). So I:
        - get the time for the event, currently, in localtime from the user
        - find whether DST is in effect for that date and time and convert the date accordingly
        - add an event entry every k * 84600 seconds, checking each time to see whether that date's DST settings have changed
        - whenever the user accesses the event, convert back from UTC to localtime, paying attention to DST

      Or I:
        - get the time for the event, currently, in localtime from the user
        - store the localtime time for the event and its recurrences, ignoring DST completely except for the marginal cases such as missing or repeated hours which I can probably ignore
        - display exactly what the user gave me when the user accesses the event

    7. Re:Windows-only "Y2DST" bugs by onemorechip · · Score: 1

      That's right. Meetings created after the patch should be fine. But in a large corporation, there are bound to be some meetings created before the patch and recurring over many months or even years, so the potential for resource conflicts is there no matter how soon the patch is available.

      I suspect that 2007 won't the end of this story. The change made by Congress was not permanent, and they could either make it permanent, revert to the old dates, or extend DST even longer. When that is decided, I hope the lesson will have been learned and patching will be done earlier, and an automatic rescheduling utility should be released concurrently with the patch. In fact, the latter is the only sure-fire way to avoid problems; just getting it done early is not.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
  47. why glibc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can someone explain why a glibc change is needed ?

    1. Re:why glibc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The RedHat KB explains it:
      http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_41_9949

      The old glibc included the timezone tables. Newer releases have broken timezone into its own package.

  48. Cron Jobs by jwhyche · · Score: 0

    Come on people, this really is a simple thing to patch your system to take care of this. Baring that, if you are to lazy to do so just set up a couple of cron jobs to take care of the problem. One to set the correct time on March 11, and one to correct the problem again on April 1st, I think. You'll need two more to correct the time again when we fall back in the fall sometimes.

    Best fucking way to deal with this issue would be just to get rid of daylight savings time all together.

    --
    I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
  49. Re:Win vs Lin (Idiot) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > Don't tell me you're timestamping with local time? Always use UTC and convert to local time on the fly, it avoids all these problems.

    Naive, ignorant, or purposefuly misleading...
    If you store all time in UTC and convert to local time on the fly, YOU STILL HAVE A PROBLEM. You have a problem because the timezone definitions changed. Someone wanted a meeting at 9am March 25th EST, and scheduled it before you put the new timezone files in place. Your system would translate that to UTC. Timezone files change, and now there meeting is displayed as 8am March 25th EST.

    Converting everything to UTC on the backend is good, but if the timezone definitions change, anything marked with a future date, that was marked prior to the updated files being installed, will be broken, regardless of system.

    Storing dates in localtime would have actually been better in this case, because 9am is just 9am. Your totally screwed during the 2 days a year that DST changes occur (because one hour happens twice, or one hour never happens), but 9am is always 9am.

  50. No "hooray" for Stable by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Humm, not having such luck here. On Debian Stable (aka "Sarge") I'm still getting the old DST settings even with the allegedly up-to-date versions of libc6.

    Running an "apt-get update", followed by "apt-get install libc6", yields an "already the installed version" message, and "dpkg -l libc6" says that I have 2.3.5-13 installed. But the date and zdump commands still give the old DST settings.

    And this is with all the official Sarge repos, including stable and stable/updates on mirrors.kernel.org and security.debian.org.

    Did they not push the timezone update out to Debian Stable, or what?

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:No "hooray" for Stable by commonchaos · · Score: 1

      Did you run "apt-get install tzdata"?

  51. FreeBSD howto by jefp · · Score: 2, Informative

    I did my old FreeBSD systems yesterday. The procedure was as follows:

    1) Fetch the new rules file. I got it from:
              http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/s rc/share/zoneinfo/northamerica?rev=1.31

    2) Save it as /usr/src/share/zoneinfo/northamerica

    3) In /usr/src/share/zoneinfo do a 'make install' - this compiles the rules into /usr/share/zoneinfo/.

    4) Run tzsetup - this copies the proper file from /usr/share/zoneinfo/ to /etc/localtime.

    5) Do a 'locate localtime' to see if you have any copies of /etc/localtime in chroot trees, e.g. /etc/bind/. If so, copy the new one there too.

    If you have multiple identical systems you can do this on one and then copy the new /etc/localtime to the rest.

  52. Automate this silly thing by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    DST definitions vary by country and can be changed by government action.

    Seems like they ought to take up some of the slack then - NIST could host timezone files on a server that OS and application vendors could code against - clients would do a basic query for the most recent version, once a month or so, and an XML schema would define the timezones and when they are in effect, and... hmmm, can't think of any more 'and's.

    There we go - Congress can fight Democrat vs. Republican on changing the date by one day each way each year (thereby minimizing the time they have to do real damage) and NIST can update the timezone files. If the analysts are to be believed each time there's a change we save $4.7B.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Automate this silly thing by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      "If the analysts are to be believed each time there's a change we save $4.7B."

      And we spend $5B making sure the changes work.

    2. Re:Automate this silly thing by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      "If the analysts are to be believed each time there's a change we save $4.7B."

      And we spend $5B making sure the changes work.


      I'm not sure you took my meaning - if you systematize and automate this you don't have to QA it every time. If NIST screwed up, all hell might break loose, but the same can be said for the atomic clocks, etc.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  53. I wonder by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wonder why we don't just keep GMT (or whatever your local time zone is in Winter, when midday occurs about 12:00) all year around, but have businesses open from 19:00 to 17:00 in the Winter and 08:00 to 16:00 in the Summer? That way, there is no need for messing about with clocks or anything (except the alarm). After all, the hours of daylight (which increase steadily from Yule until Midsummer) are always split evenly around midday, whether you call it 12:00, 13:00 or even 14:00. But 12:00 is just a nice figure to use when it's midday.

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  54. Multiple timezone meetings by farnz · · Score: 4, Informative
    To give you an example of a meeting that spans several timezones; we needed to hold a teleconference with people in the UK, Australia and the US. Within the US, a company with offices in New York and San Francisco faces the same issue; you have people in different timezones, who need to agree on a time.

    It's not possible to get a perfect solution to the problem. The best design I've seen stores times in UTC, together with a description of the entry timezone and the offset. Each user has a current local timezone (and it's assumed that users who travel will track these problems for themselves). When a change to DST comes along, the administrator can do some or all of the following:

    • Adjust meetings such that meetings entered in the timezone that's changing are at the same local time (but a different UTC time).
    • Adjust meetings such that meetings entered in the timezone that's changing are at the same UTC time (but a different local time).
    • Alert everyone who's involved with a meeting where one or more participants are in a timezone that's changing to check that the time is still valid.

    The system also allows users to override the entry timezone on a per-entry basis. This means that I can enter a meeting in the UK marked as 9am Atlanta time, and be confident that it'll not only appear properly, but that if Atlanta's timezone changes on me, it'll be updated properly.

  55. The patches have been out for months now. by wsanders · · Score: 1

    The Redhat/Fedora tzinfo, since May or June 2006.

    Solaris patches, since about March 2006.

    Don't know about others.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    1. Re:The patches have been out for months now. by XenoPhage · · Score: 1

      Cisco patches are more recent, and Nortel only just released patches a couple weeks ago.. So there are companies waiting till the bitter end to make the changes...

      --
      XenoPhage
      Technological Musings
  56. boring... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    we've being doing this for ages in Brazil. You're such whiners!

  57. I can imagine Microsoft patching systems by guruevi · · Score: 1

    and charging a lot for it too! I heard it was somewhere between $500-$2000 for a patch depending how old your M$-software is (I'm talking WinNT3&4, and yes I know big credit card systems that are still running these). Yeah, all Unix servers just updated zoneinfo, now you see what you get for being locked into a system you can't change yourself.

    By the way: good luck with stuff like SharePoint, if you didn't configure your timezones for each site, it automatically references PST (yes, Pacific), no matter what the rest of your computer configuration says.

    And good Windows admins or not, one of the companies I work for has Microsoft themselves updating their Exchange since it already failed twice, screwing up their times and they haven't been successful so far

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    1. Re:I can imagine Microsoft patching systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Try $4000.

  58. Fedora Core x by kmassare · · Score: 1

    I use Fedora Core 3, 4, 5 and 6 at my office. I found that yum updated the files in /usr/share/zoneinfo, but did nothing to /etc/localtime (the zone data that the system actually uses). Actually Core 3 added file /etc/localtime.rpm which was fine if I was located in the US Eastern time zone (I'm not). The manual update was easy, however. To check the current settings:

    zdump -v /etc/localtime | grep 2007

    If the DST start date shown is not March 11 then check the file in /usr/share/zoneinfo. I am in the US Pacific time zone so I verified that my zone file had been updated by:

    zdump -v /usr/share/zoneinfo/US/Pacific | grep 2007

    Then I activated the updated file by copying it into /etc:

    cp /usr/share/zoneinfo/US/Pacific /etc/localtime

  59. Mangement's view of DST issues.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can't figure why they were an hour late for your exit interview...On March 12th.

  60. Probably should leave well enough alone. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    There's no tzdata available for stable; I think that's a testing and unstable creation.

    After some poking around, I realized that my version of libc6 is somehow newer than what's available in stable, but older than unstable and testing, and I have no idea how it got there. This makes me think that it's probably something that's depended on by other things, meaning that it's probably better left alone.

    Rather than poke at anything, I think I may just switch it over to UTC and forget about this timezone business. Rewriting some crontabs seems vastly easier than the Bad Things that might happen if I either upgrade libc6 to what's included in testing or unstable, or force a downgrade to what's packaged in stable.

    It's a backup server; it shouldn't care what the local time is, anyway. If I'd been thinking when I set it up, I should have just kept it set to Zulu time and wrote my crontabs accordingly.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:Probably should leave well enough alone. by cortana · · Score: 1

      It is possible that /etc/localtime is a copy of the timezone info, rather than a symlink to it. If this is the case then you would have to copy the new timezone info over /etc/localtime (or re-run tzsetup and have it do it for you).

      You can check /usr/share/doc/libc6/changelog.Debian.gz to see exactly what version you have, where it came from, and how old it is.

    2. Re:Probably should leave well enough alone. by gravyface · · Score: 1

      I added deb unstable to my sources.list, ran apt-get install tzdata, re-ran tzconfig, chose my TZ, and voila! it worked.

      --
      body massage!
  61. Much ado about nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    This histeria reminds me alot of Y2K, everyone screaming that it's the end of civilization.

    Just change the damm time people, takes about ten seconds, and then get a life.

    The only ones that might have a ligitimate complaint would be those administering more than fifty machines (and those people usually have some kind of remote access with scripting capability).

  62. Easy Solution by YetAnotherBob · · Score: 1

    As I live in Arizona, where we don't do Daylight Savings Time, the solution is easy. Ignore it, it'll still be the same time next week as it is today. For everywhere else, the conversion routines will be sticky, giving incorrect answers for a lot of before/after conversions, but it's only acocuntants that'll mess up. So, hope you enjoy the conversion.

    --
    Everybody knows 3 people with my name.
  63. Y2DST??? by Wolfger · · Score: 1

    What marketing moron came up with that clueless catch phrase?

  64. Why is this such an issue? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Ooh! Ahh! Help! The world is going to end!

    Get over it.

    In Australia, DST was extended for a month last year for the Commonwealth Games. Microsoft issued an update for Windows, and NOTHING BAD HAPPENED.

    But, this all happened outside of the United States, so it doesn't really matter now, does it?

  65. If DST is so damned great... by WebCowboy · · Score: 1

    ...then shouldn't the whole continent shift their schedules 1 hour ahead and keep them there?

    I like DST. I know how to set what clocks I have that still need to be changed. I enjoy the extra light at the end of the day.

    Well then we should have that hour all year 'round then. DST is totally perverted up here in Canada--we "fall back" in the fall and so the sun sets earlier...just in time so that the short days of winter are even shorter! DST is totally backwards..if anything we should "fall ahead" and "spring back".

    I HATE the extra hour of daylight in the summer...where I live that means I have to close all the blinds in my house to go to sleep because it stays light outside until after 10 PM! I HATE early evenings in the winter--it means that by the time I can leave work it's been dark for an hour already!

    Also, I live in a city that spans state lines, so having one state opt out would be a real hassle.

    No it wouldn't. The city of Lloydminster, Canada not only spans a provincial border (Alberta and Saskatchewan) it also straddles time zones (Mountain and Central)...AND one province does DST (Alberta) and the other does not (Saskatchewan). Solution? The city officially does all business on Alberta time (IIRC--that being the physical location of city all..or perhaps because more of the population resides on the Alberta side).

    All in all though, is one stupid our of daylight really worth the trouble? If it is so great, lets forget about "saving" our daylight and spend it all now by turning ahead an hour and STAYING there. I've already learned to live with closing all the blinds in my house so I can fall asleep at 10PM so I'll live with that...and furthermore though it'll be dusk, at least it won't be PITCH BLACK at 5 or 5:30 PM when I leave the office in December.

    Any other Albertans (especially those in and around Lloyminster) care to start up a petition to send to Mr. Stelmach to universally adopt Saskatchewan time in Alberta? I'm sure there has to be a "green" argument for that.

  66. JAVA by Slashdot+Parent · · Score: 1

    Biggest problem is Java. For whatever reason, Sun decided to code its own DST routines instead of relying on the native OS routines. Stupid stupid stupid stupid Java.

    Upgrading the JVM for production apps means full regression retesting. Sometimes upgrading appservers because they are incompatible with certain JVMs (stupid stupid stupid BEA).

    Stupid stupid stupid stupid Java.

    --
    They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
  67. FYI, Red Hat's Patch is Incorrect! by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just a head's up to anyone running Red Hat that their DST patch is incorrect. It's switching to Daylight Saving Time two hours earlier than it's supposed to.

    CST6DST Sun Mar 11 05:59:59 2007 UTC = Sat Mar 10 23:59:59 2007 CST
    isdst=0 gmtoff=-21600
    CST6DST Sun Mar 11 06:00:00 2007 UTC = Sun Mar 11 01:00:00 2007 DST
    isdst=1 gmtoff=-18000
    CST6DST Sun Nov 4 04:59:59 2007 UTC = Sat Nov 3 23:59:59 2007 DST
    isdst=1 gmtoff=-18000
    CST6DST Sun Nov 4 05:00:00 2007 UTC = Sat Nov 3 23:00:00 2007 CST
    isdst=0 gmtoff=-21600

    Clock's are supposed to roll forward an hour at 1:59 A.M. not midnight.

    We're having some fun with these patches. We've got about 400 machines to update (with three people) and are running about two dozen different releases of FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Red Hat Linux, Debian Linux, SCO, Solaris and Windows operating systems. And those are just the production servers; I can't wait until we do desktops.

  68. gentoo updated by at least September 2006 by zojas · · Score: 1

    I haven't updated quite a while, that's when my glibc version I'm running was created, and my system passes the test!

  69. MAC OSX/BSD/etc by inKubus · · Score: 1

    date 032515002006
    date 032515002007

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
  70. Quick test online by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    See

    • http://dst.umn.edu/

    for a quick, Javascript-based test.