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Dell Opens a Poll On Linux Options
narramissic writes "In response to overwhelming user demand for Linux, Dell has posted a survey on a company blog that asks 'PC users to choose between Linux flavors such as Fedora and Ubuntu, and to pick more general choices such as notebooks versus desktops, high-end models versus value models and telephone-based support versus community-based support.' Votes will be collected through March 23, and Dell plans to use the feedback to begin selling Linux-based consumer PCs." The poll is pretty minimal. Wonder how much it will really guide Dell's choices.
No comments and the poll is already down.
Sigh..... isn't always that way?
Three Squirrels
Huh. We slashdotted Dell? Maybe their blade servers aren't up to scratch after all...
Maybe that'll help guide Dell's opinion of whether people want Linux on their PCs.
Registering accounts later than some other chrisb since 1997
I want 'em all.
A choice of several distros (blobs not preferred), on a wide variety of hardware.
If they need to start out with a more limited selection, fine, but expand as they go along, please.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
In response to overwhelming user demand for Linux
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Download my free songs!
HP and others are busy selling Linux systems and making money. Now, I am expecting that Dell will charge extra for Linux, rather than less.
Personally, I choose Debian for my servers and Ubuntu for my desktops. I choose Debian for my servers, so I can have the most stripped system to which I can add things on a platform I know very well. I use Ubuntu for my desktops because it has an enormous support community, frequent releases and the packages are not nearly as out of sync as straight Debian.
Fedora is too tied to RedHat for my tastes and seems to only really be the choice of corporations these days. I'm not even sure what their community is like, compared to that of Debian and Ubuntu.
Anything other than those three is currently too small and obscure. There is a lot of fractioning in the distro world right now, but the majority seem to go to Ubuntu, then Redhat and then Suse and straight Debian.
I am very curious as to how they would pick a Linux and properly provide support for it without preventing you from being able to upgrade your kernel whenever you want or adding any of the bazillion packages out there that you want. It's very easy to hork your linux system, even if you know what you're doing. As much as I love linux I remain very skeptical about the average user implementing it as a desktop solution if they like to play around or have serious needs that cant' allow for plenty of downtime and research to resolve minor problems.
"Dude! You Slashdotted Dell!"
Was Slackware listed?
Should have bought a Dell! ...wait.
I love Linux and all, but what kind of support would be offered compared to Windows support? I have no experience with Windows support (don't use it), but when I call my ISP and other companies, they ask questions like "What version of Windows are you using?" By being a Linux and Mac guy, I find myself self supported much of the time, which is OK most of the time, but when the internet is down or something that is not OS dependant, I have issues from time to time, and its next to impossible to talk with support people sometimes.
Now, I'm not talking about me. I've run Linux on a number of Dells (hundreds), but I don't need Linux support, but for "normal" people or whatever, what kind of support will they get?
I foun the survey here: http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/cor p/linux/
I personally do not want any flavor pre-installed. FreeDos is fine thank you. There are just too many options and partitioning preferences that I would typically reinstall anyways.
I can install Redhat via a USB drive in 10 minutes so the advantages of pre-installation are minimal.
What I really care about is not paying the Microsoft tax!
The problem is that it's impractical for Dell, or any other company, to support every distribution and version of GNU/Linux that's out there. It's also impractical for them to test every hardware configuration with all of those distributions. They've got to pick one. Or two. Or five. Or whatever practical number their support people can handle. (Which I'm guess will end up being one or two at the most.)
Personally, I think they should go with Ubuntu, as it is extremely popular and arguably the most user-friendly distribution. If you want a different distribution, you're free to install it, and it will probably work since you know that the Ubuntu drivers will work on their hardware. But if you get a Dell with Linux, along with their support and guarantee that it will work on their hardware, you'll have to go with the distribution they've actually tested and that they support.
You know everyone has been complaining that Dell doesn't offer Linux. Then they open a poll, they then get flamed for not having enough options. There is no way to make everyone happy, there just aren't enough Linux trained support techs to support everything. On their servers they only support a limited amount of distros and if the customer wants to using something other than those then it's best effort maybe that will be the case with the desktops. I know some people on the support side and, even in the enterprise world you hear some really stupid questions come in and you wonder why they are even running Linux...imagine that in the consumer space.
everybody needs Linux, but they want a survey? ugh. need more action...
This is really part of the problem. It costs Dell a ton of money to install a different default OS, or at least they claim that it does, and I've no basis to argue with them, so as a community, we need to be able to be satisfied with one distribution.
One of the reasons that Dell et al have always used as an argument against installing Linux by default, is that Linux users are too hard to please, and the market is too balkanized. With Windows, you have (well, you did, pre-Vista) Home, and Professional, and you can charge extra for installing Professional. With Linux, you have Ubuntu, Novell, Fedora, and god knows what else, and you really can't charge extra for installing one or the other without alienating users.
I think they need to pick ONE easy-to-use "beginners Linux" distribution, like Ubuntu or Lindows, and then offer a 'bare drive' option for users who want something else. Let's face it; if you are enough of a Linux user to have developed a preference between distributions, you can install the damn thing from an ISO. As long as the hardware is compatible and has Linux drivers available, you ought to be able to put anything you want on there.
The argument for pre-installations is really about novice users who can't be bothered to install an OS onto a fresh machine, and just want something that's going to work with minimal fuss. They need a distribution that's as idiot-proof and "polished" as possible, and that's what the criteria for choosing it should be.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
By offering NONE ... pre-installed ... but offering options on boxes so that they include only 100% Linux-friendly hardware. Which would be tested against the current kernel (and the kernel tested with would be documented).
AND NOT COSTING MORE THAN AN EQUIVALENT WINDOWS BOX.
Box A
Windows config - $500
Linux config -
- remove modem (save $5)
- replace modem w/Linux compatible (kernel 2.6.18) (add $15)
- remove wireless card (save $10)
- replace wireless card w/Linux compatible (kernel 2.6.20) (add $25)
And so on. Support "Linux", not "Red Hat". Ship the hardware and let the buyer get support from the distribution s/he prefers.
Go here to see the survey http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/cor p/linux/
That's nice to know.
telephone-based support versus community-based support.
Witch one do you think dell likes better?
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
Without the trailing slash
Ohhh reallly!
My vote: not that much.
Dell recommends Windows Vista(TM) Business.
The survey only listed "Fee based Phone support" as a support option. What about with windows where you get free phone support for 1 year or whatever it is nowadays?!
My workplace already gets Precision workstations from Dell with RHEL on them. Although to be honest we swapped vendors for the last round because quad Opterons were the better choice at the time. RHEL isn't a particularly good desktop OS for my needs (low popularity, license/reinstall headache) but Ubuntu works well enough on the same hardware.
What Dell really lacks is laptops with obvious Linux support. It's still a pain in the ass to look through their website and pick up a laptop that you know has working 3D drivers (ATI blows), wireless, and hibernation support. You can go look around for third party reviews and match model numbers but that leaves you looking off site (and evaluating against competitors) and Dell has a huge turnover in model revisions.
"Linux Learnings. We're listening". Especially since it comes right after "Dell Recommends Vista Business". Maybe they're not listening well enough?
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
No, as opposed to you buying a Linux laptop from a company that sells Linux laptops. I don't see what everybody's obsession is with wanting to buy a Dell. Is it a status symbol to have a computer box that says "Dell" on it?
I don't respond to AC's.
What about Emacs?
http://saveie6.com/
How are you leave off Debian GNU/Linux from the distribution list. Are you people just a bunch of idiots or what? It's obvious you Dellosers don't even know the history of GNU/Linux because Debian was the FIRST GNU/Linux distribution and continues to be the best GNU/Linux distribution. You'd have to be a complete moron to make a list of GNU/Linux distributions and leave off Debian GNU/Linux. It's obvious that Dell has no interest in supporting REAL free software, only a bunch of fake anti-freedom distros like Red Hat "Linux" (sic).
Dell you can go to hell, I am never going to buy your products again!!!
Dell should simply burn a KNOPPIX-like image onto the disk and boot into a live linux session just like the current Ubuntu live CD. Have icons on the desktop with labels like "Install RedHat", "Install SUSE", "Install Ubuntu" and so on. Ask each distro to provide the necessary installation program and data! The original live partition can also act as a rescue/disk editing mode.
Or, maybe, DragonFlyBSD. A complete OS targeting i386 platforms, with fewer GNU-licensing issues to worry about.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
It's because once Dell starts offering linux, then the DRIVERS for all the various hardware and games, etc, will follow and *everyone* who runs linux in general will benefit. Dell and HP are the big kahunas with desktops, the entire industry will sit up and take notice that "Linux has arrived" once their linux offerings are common place. The peripheral industry is not impressed enough with the small tier 3 linux -capable computer vendors right now, a lot of them just totally ignore linux or offer some token crappy drivers, etc., but with Dell they will have to take notice and do something about it.
It doesn't exactly take brain of texas to work out it's servers where Linux already dominates, so if they want market share, they go for... desktop PCs. Brain transplant please - the survey is far from credible...
Ian W.
from HP (Compaq). At the specs I wanted, the HP was $50 less than the Dell, but if Dell had offered full linux drivers (not a bcm4318 that with poor reverse engineered drivers or ndiswrapper, and working suspend), I would have bought the Dell.
First vendor to offer competitive laptops with full linux support gets my money in 3-5 years when I'm looking for a replacement.
What's going to happen when Dell releases a flavor that can't play MP3s, or some media files, out of the box? I wonder if the idea of it being Linux is going to be...for lack of a better way of putting it...scary enough to the average user to dissuade them from selecting it as an option even if it saves 'em money.
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." -Albert Einstein
Ubuntu 4 books, Fedora 2, Debian 2. The problem with the Fedora books is that they seemed to be tied to a specific version e.g. 'Fun with FC4'
Linux is scary for the first time user but Ubuntu is surprisingly resilient. I'm running Feisty upgraded from Hoary with no previous debian experience.
I'm sure Canonical would love the extra business if Dell outsourced support to them.
Why can't they bundle books on their on-line store with titles on open office, ubuntu etc?
They need to pick hardware that has open source drivers. For the rest, they ought to get someone to write friendly wizards for hardware hot-plugging. "I notice you've plugged an external monitor into your system. Would you like me to configure xorg.conf for you?"
Working for Dell, I found out you can blast a system with the standard green XP SP2 disk, no matter how old or new it is. I suspect its even the same with the purple Vista Ultimate disk but I could be wrong.
They must be going off the bios of the Dell. Its stupid, but I guess it saves Dell money, though it negates the bare drive option as I am sure Microsoft would be pissed if they offered it.
No Windows eh? Ok, pay the cost difference for not having crapware that subsidizes your cost of the machine. You are just fucking yourselves by requesting Linux/No OS option ... tack on another $30 or so to the cost of the machine.
There shall now be a Linux Tax. Oh, you linux users didn't know how business works? Should have taken some business courses in school instead.
As a Linux user, there's really only two things I would like to see from Dell (or any PC manufacturer). One is the option of buying a computer with either a free OS or no OS (some more casual users (the type that Linux needs to be attracting if it wants to grow its user base) might prefer their favorite distro pre-installed, but I'm more likely to want to set everything up myself). Second, I want to know if the hardware will work well with open source drivers.
The first is tricky for PC manufacturers from a political standpoint; they don't want to offend Microsoft. (I am curious if anyone has a good answer to this: supposing Microsoft were to raise their per-OS lisencing fees as retaliation against a PC manufacturer for selling a non-Microsoft OS, would they get sued for anticompetitive practices, or would they get away with it? Could they retaliate in other, more subtle ways?)
The second is also tricky because many of the better graphics cards don't have open source drivers. (At least, not drivers that support 3d accelleration, which is usually why people buy high-end graphics cards in the first place.) If Dell were to say "sure, we support Linux, just use the binary-only Nvidia driver", that approach isn't going to make a lot of Linux users happy.
Bundle it with Ubuntu. Something easy for people to pick up and play with. It's not like all the fans of other linux distros don't know how to reformat and partition a hard drive. If the hardware works with Ubuntu chances are it'll work with any other flavor of linux, so who cares which one they officially support?
Pretty much the same way they provide "support" for Windows.
Take your installer disk and re-install the system and it will be back to the same way you received it. Too bad about your data.
Come on. The distributions can do better than that without even trying. Dell doesn't provide any support beyond returning your system to the configuration you received.
As for upgrading your kernel and breaking things
Almost every Linux distribution out there has a package management system that means that the problems Windows users have will be non-existent on Linux.
You've claimed to use Debian and Ubuntu. How easy is it to remove an application? That's how easy tech support is for Linux. On known hardware.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Reason being as easy as I think linux distros are, I'm sure there are people who wouldn't be able to makes heads or tails of them. So to support them I'm guessing some videos would have to be placed right on the desktop that demonstrates basic usage. Have some more advanced documents packaged in there that are EASY to read. I think there really truly is a market for this, but I'm not sure if as great as the current distros are, if any of them are really targeted the truly new user?
The real benefit to the community however is going to be the backing of DELL to try and get some of these drivers made. The whole community benefits. Like most users are going to comment, it really doesn't matter what distro, as long as the devices work. However from Dell's point of view, it comes down to how many more support calls are there going to be because of this? They realize the market is there for Linux, they're just trying to test the waters before they jump in. I hope this works out well for everyone.
I will actually consider getting a Dell for my next computer if they include Linux. Not because I want to avoid the hassle of installing a Linux distribution, but because they have to have better support for the hardware in their machines. Maybe less problems with winmodem drivers?
On a side note, why wasn't there an option for gentoo? I hope the haven't been reading slashdot lately.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
My guess is, Dell is doing this to push/force Microsoft into according it better pricing bonuses. The half-hearted way they are doing this just smells too fishy for me. Customers have requested No-OS computers for years and Dell has always ignored them.
Here's a summary of the computers they list:
Inspiron
consumer laptop
Dimension
consumer desktop
XPS
high-end consumer systems. Also good systems for serious artists.
support is thin
Latitude business notebooks
just what the name says
OptiPlex business desktops
just what the name says
The survey falls under the Dell small business marketing category
I see a lot of complaining here, but I believe this is a great move. Dell is a huge, millionaire company and is showing real attention to Linux users. Just remember that a while ago Dell wasn't considering Linux anymore and you'll see the value of this recent attitude from them.
Nice one for Dell. Hope we really see this becoming a reality.
Er Galvão Abbott - IT Consultant and Developer
Correction: medium & large business category.
Am I missing something or isn't Canonical an official company behind Ubuntu? Are they just calling them commercial because they actually charge money for the operating system, or commercial because the guiding company behind it offers commercial support?
I can count to 1023 on my hands. Ask me about #132.
I see this going nowhere. Really. Why? Because different Linux fans wil want different things. Some want Debian. Some want Gentoo. Some want Ubuntu. Some want Kubuntu. Some want KDE. Some want Gnome. Some want Fedora. Some want 2.4* kernels. (The EDA software at work isonly qualified for 2.4, not for 2.6) Some want 2.6* kernels. Some want Enterprise. Some want something else.
That's an awful lot of permutations, and Dell isn't going to support everything. Will Linux fans be happy with the one distro/configuration Dell chooses to ship? What percentage will be unhapy with Dell's choice and decide not to buy the preinstalled systems that way? Will that happy percentage of Linux fans be worth the trouble compared to leaving us to do it ourselves the way we choose to have it done? I doubt it.
I know what you mean about calling Tech Support. Even companies like Linksys is guilty since configuring their routers has nothing to do with your OS. The fact of the matter is that tech support will adapt or lose customers. If an ISP starts getting calls for Linux support and they just say, "whoops we don't support linux," customers will respond with, "whoops my credit card doesn't support your monthly bills anymore..."
1, 2, 3, 4, 5... That's the combination on my luggage!
Honestly.
The average user will still leave the default options selected with OEM versions of Vista Home and Office.
Anyone selecting Linux as an option knows it's 'for nerds' and fraught with danger. Caveat emptor!
Who's not to say that Dell wouldn't license MP3 codecs, anyway?
How about something a bit more obvious...
How about you guys (Dell) just worry about making sure that your hardware works under Linux. If necessary, distribute patches or drivers as tar.gz files. Don't worry about the OS - leave that to us, the community.
Why tar.gz files?? Because they are universally compatible with all distributions. They may not have all the nice extras like dependency tracking and all that, but name a distribution that can't deal with a tar.gz file. Besides, I would argue that Dell should only be distributing device drivers - things that would rarely have much in the way of dependencies external to themself (other than the kernel, obviously).
I say: just support your hardware - all of it - under Linux and we'll take it from there...
Typed on my Dell Latitude D610 laptop running Slackware 11 - only...
Ron Gage - Westland, MI
The ones who care about those kinds of things will be able to install Linux themselves.
The ones who don't know how to do it themselves will either know somebody who DOES know... or they'll not care.
All I care about is:
- the hardware have drivers
- no Windows tax (and if it costs more than the equivalent Windows box, they don't get my business)
Would it not be a better idea to just allow no operating systems? I'm sure they could handle installing it themselves, and it would be up to them to decide which flavour, and all Dell really has to do is make a few standard drivers I'm assuming. Even if some flavours are ruled out, it would probably add more options than having them pre-installed. So they can ship it without an OS, not have to have anything other than very basic support.
I wouldn't imagine the less technically inclined to jump at the chance of having linux, and those that do would more than likely have an outer influence that can help. Also if they are worried about people just buying it to escape the MS tax and install a pirated version, well thats almost a non-existant issue, you can easily wipe the linux partition (through the windows setup) and install your pirated Windows.
Not sure if anyone else mentioned any of these points but I think they're pretty valid, what do you guys think?
Hard to take seriously a poll from a company that cannot even implement the submit button correctly on their poll page, using proper HTML, and without the ultimate stupidity of making their submit button tied to Javascript.
Why UNIX?
But important, at least for businesses. They test and confirm that all the hardware has drivers that works and that it all works together, they provide a disc (or utility to make a disc) that will rebuild the system to a working state, and they have techs that know how to walk you through that.
The big one is hardware compatibility testing. All the time you hear of people with Linux hardware problems and the often smarmy response is "Well check to make sure you have compatible hardware first!" as though it were so easy. Well, it becomes much easier to do that if there's a vendor with a solution. You buy their hardware and use the OS that came with it, you know it all works (or at least it'd better).
They have this message. pay attention to the last paragraph.. rofl
Your feedback on Dell IdeaStorm has been astounding. Thank you! We hear your requests for desktops and notebooks with Linux. We're crafting product offerings in response, but we'd like a little more direct feedback from you: your preferences, your desires. We recognize some people prefer notebooks over desktops, high-end models over value models, your favorite Linux distribution, telephone-based support over community-based support, and so on. We can't offer everything (all systems, all distributions, all support options), so we've crafted a survey (www.dell.com/linuxsurvey) to let you help us prioritize what we should deliver for you.
Taking a few minutes to complete this survey will help us define our forthcoming Linux-based system offerings. We will close the survey on Friday, March 23. From there, we'll take some time to analyze your feedback and work to provide the platforms and options you choose.
Thanks in advance for your participation. More details soon.
Update: We're overwhelmed by your responses, and we know the survey server is overloaded too. We're working on it, and the survey will remain open until March 23, so you'll have plenty of time to make your vote count.
If they release drivers for their hardware as Free Software, (GPL 2 or later compatible) then every GNU/Linux distribution will work like a charm.
If you get RHEL, RedHat can support it
If you get SUSE, Novell can support it
That's what they do. That's what you pay for.
All Dell has to do is make sure the install runs well and all the hardware is working and tested.
Just because Microsoft pawns the responsibility off on the hardware vendors doesn't mean that they all have to do it that way.
Is that though they may have gotten slammed, it wasn't with genuine user demand, but rather Linux zealots stuffing the ballot box. Just because there are a bunch of responses to an un-scientific survey doesn't mean there's genuine user demand. Given what I've seen on forums and such I believe there was a large number of Linux users that have no intention of buying a Dell that were voting to try and support Linux.
Dell's servers being overwhelmed doesn't mean there's an actual overwhelming demand for Linux, just that there's a lot of Linux users with time on their hands who wish to try and give that impression, at least until they lose interest and move on to something else.
They need to mark all of their hardware with 3 labels for Linux and the same 3 labels for BSD:
1) broken - one or more features does not work under Linux, or the system flat out won't boot
2) unsupported - drivers exist for all hardware but you are on your own. Maybe a vendor will support you.
3) supported - a specific distro and release is supported by us on this box as shipped.
I don't expect a lot of #3 but with the exception of a few "non-critical" subsystems with no Linux vendor support and no published specs, you shouldn't see any #1. For example, your video or sound card might not run all its features. Critical systems include i/o, storage, networking/modems, etc.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Dell needs to go full bore and create a true alternative to Windows that is marketed as such. Perhaps it should be a brand all its own so it doesn't interfere with the Dell brand. Kind of like Toyota has Scion and Lexus. The Dell "Scion" line of systems would be designed from the ground up to be open systems. Using only open source hardware and drivers. They would be packaged with a special Dell distribution, provided by RedHat/Novell/Shuttleworth or something rolled inhouse. The line of systems would be marketed and sold much as Mac OSX is today. An alternative. It would serve a niche market initially and expand from there (you can't expect doubledigit market penetration from the get go). The systems would be premium in nature, as evidenced by many on Slashdot and other forums people will pay premium for OSX tied to a premium hardware solution. The same would be expected of Dell's new Linux offering.
Or, when you say "brain of texas", are you talking about George Bush?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Maybe a good option for Dell here would be to go the Apple route and make its own OS. For example, what if Dell made a "Dell Linux" by forking form (K)Ubuntu. This strategy provides Dell with a number of advantages. First and foremost is that they would only have to officially support a single Linux distro, making official company support easier as well as encouraging an enthusiastic and helpful user base to grow, much like has happened with other F/OSS projects. Also, Dell would naturally choose hardware for which fully functional F/OSS drivers already exist, or they could encourage a company to make Dell Linux-specific binary blobs with the promise of a mass equipment order. This would allow Dell computers running Dell Linux to "just work" in the same way as Macs, and for the same reasons. Also, since Dell Linux would be a fork from a popular distro, it would also allow most of the originator's software to run without modificaton (Hello Synaptic!) Now, when do I get paid?
But it helps solve the chicken-before-the-egg issues that linux tends to run into. Big manufacturer starts supporting linux, starts using hardware that works in linux (even if it's a particular version of linux). Hardware vendors start getting orders for linux-compatible hardware. Other venders start supporting linux more in their hardware. More drivers, more compatible hardware, and the situation improves overall as the visibility and marketability of the OS increases.
Is it just me, or doesn't anyone else thing that MS must be rather worried about the fact that a large manufacturer is looking hard at selling a non-MS operating system?
So I got to take the poll only to be rewarded by a "Dell recommends Vista for Business" ad when I was done. Great!
I think the IdeaStorm website is causing more chairs to be broken at Microsoft. And, by proxy, a few glass picture windows. Ballmer called open source a cancer. Well, if it is a cancer, it seems to have an affinity for M$.
There's no option for FreeBSD, those insensitive clods!
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
What I am most interested in is hardware support. If it works with Fedora, or better yet Debian, then it'll work with just about any distro I need or care about.
Honestly, I just don't think Dell 'gets' F/OSS. I'm not sure that running a Linux survey is the right way to make business decisions. If none of their big customers are asking for Linux support it is likely due to strong competition. I also don't think they understand that the amount of systems they sell will have no affect on a community project. They are symbiotic with Intel and Microsoft. If Dell needs something, Wintel will take notice and try to help. If Dell needs a better windows driver from a chip-maker, they usually get it. Will they get it for Linux too?
If Dell needs something from Fedora, they are going to be told to RTFM and send in a patch. They are on equal ground with the guy down the street in his mommas' basement. I'm not sure they can handle that.
I run Linux on my Dell D620 Latitude, oddly enough. Wish it had better driver support, and that is all I am asking for. Dell, use your sway to get these chip makers to write open drivers that can be sent upstream to Linus please. Mmmkay? Do that first and magically all the Linux guys will shut up because they'll be happy.
In my opinion a chip isn't "Linux Supported" until there is a driver in upstream the community can mantain.
I would like to open the box and see a shiny new laptop with WUXGA graphics and wireless ready to work out of the box. I would like to unwrap the plastic to check out the accessories and the adapter that came with it. And finally, I would like to peel off the shrinkwrap from a book entitled 'The F***ing Manual'.
Cmon, you KNOW it would come down to this.
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
Dell assumes that customers 1) know the difference between an Inspiron, a Latitude, and and an XPS, and 2) care. Even GM gave up on that nonsense and discontinued the Oldsmobile nameplate.
By offering NONE ... pre-installed ... but offering options on boxes so that they include only 100% Linux-friendly hardware.
IMHO the winning strategy for Dell is to provide one pre-installed distro with open drivers that supports all the hardware. And to provide a live-CD with any diagnostic software needed for company hardware support.
Then a user can buy the hardware with the confidence that all of it will work with linux drivers - and either stick with the stock distribution or switch to any other of his choice.
- Switching distros means you are committing to community support for the software.
- Dell can make available Dell software support for their particular "starter" distro as an option.
- Users not buying software support would get only hardware support. (So Dell might install their stock distro as the last step of the disk test - even for "bare disk" purchasers - if it simplifies their operations.)
- Dell can support the hardware without ANY reference to what distro (or even OS) is on it.
That last would let them share production with a Windows preinstalled model for improved economy of scale. (Though they might want one difference: a "shipped with/without windows" flag in the BIOS, readable by the OS. That way their stock Windows recovery disk could ask for an extra-cost "bought a license" authorization code before installing. This would be to head off claims from Microsoft that the "real" purpose of the product was to pirate Windows.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Probably I (well my boss), will be ordering a new laptop from Dell in the next 1-3 months. The first thing the IT people downstairs will have to do is whipe the Windows of and install Novell SuSE Linux 10.1, as we have standardized on that at work. So I could answer these questions pretty well.
Next to that I wanted to point out that since Apple switched to Intel, a lot of my co-workers have been switching from Dells-running-Linux to Macbook Pros as those run most of our tools too. Getting better Dells-running-Linux would certainly have Dell keep a significant portion of our business (we're not very big though, I'm talking maybe 10 laptops/year)
One thing that I would love if Dell (or anybody) did, was sell a box with Linux, where I can legally watch my DVDs. There are already legal linux DVD players out there. Some googling points me towards Linspire, so maybe they should go with that, I have no experience with them. Pity Novell/SuSE isn't offering this as at work that's our standard.
RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
some of you forget that once linspire opens up it's CnR repository for Ubuntu (and other distros) they will have access to proprietary codecs such as win32 codecs (and others) and will be free from legal attacks.
...that that was an effort at sarcasm or satire. (If so, PLEASE watch "The Mary Whitehouse Experience" and "Spitting Image" before attempting either of these forms of humour again. "Yes, Prime Minister" would also be helpful. There are some helpful hints on "The Goodies" and "The Morcambe and Wise Show" which are worthy of study. Angry Man humour is frankly rather dated and was never that good anyway.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The support that I want Dell to do is to: help the kernel developers to support their devices/hardware.
Everything else can be done through normal channels.
There was no option to install Cowboy Neal. How can they claim to be geek savvy?
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
The poll is up now.
I voted "other" = Slackware for the distribution choice. ONCE.
So let the Fedora vs Ubuntu spam war begin. I predict much spamming for those two.
My immediate thought on this is that maybe they're not learning enough lessons. In basic english grammar, for example.
For f**ks sake, learning is a verb. You cannot pluralise a verb, or even if it can be done for a few verbs, learning is definitely not one of them. The word is f**king lessons idiots! LESSONS!!! Saying "learnings" when you mean "lessons" will not, contrary to the theory of management speak, succeed in making me stupid. It does make you look stupid for believing it will and I don't trust stupid people to build f**cking PCs for me!!! F**KING F**CK F**CKS!!!!
Whew.. sorry for that outburst people, management speak makes my brain itch.
I don't therefore I'm not.
With the many distributions out there and the only ones really knowing about linux generically, even as a newbee, they probably already have enough info to do it themselves, given some of todays distros.
It seems the main support issue is getting a newbee aware of what support is already out there and how to productively use it.
And then there are such distros like the dynebolic distro. With this type of approach Dell or whoever selling hardware can safely lock down or narrow their scope of support (as a trade off they might better support the dev side). And they can as well make available software upgrades for free, a matter of download and perhaps CD (a trade off cost of limited support savings)
"We support the system as it is presented to you, and have as fully tested it on our hardware as is reasonable." Should you alter beyond our supported add in modules, we will not be able to provide the level of support you might expect from us. However you are of course free to communicate with distro and other available support channels outside of our support limits"
All in all, I however have had enough frustration with the computer industry in general and given to the upgrading of the masses for the next best system, there is plenty of free hardware to pick up from toss out and help the environment. I only now just make minor purchases of computer related hardware.
So sorry Dell, I won't be buying from you and I do understand the problem you face with such questionairs. As the most likely ones to respond are also the ones who are fully capable of simply getting a no-os system from you and installing whatever operating system it that they want.
So its really just a "software support" issue of pre installed software, and hey, does any hardware manufacture and system builder actually support software made by others? Ir do they just refer you to the "other"?
Let's substitute XY for Ubuntu...
Your argument still holds very well for most people!
But still the zealot/academic/(completely impractical) people will need to substitute ZA for your XY, arbitrarily.
While its popular to carp about Microsoft Windows, Linux as an OS is suffering due to lack of standardization, focus and no clear leadership. A dozen different ways to accomplish the same thing is not always a plus!
As long as the default distribution is free, then there is no point in offering a bare drive. Only fdisk lies between the two, and any user installing their own OS will have no problem removing the old partition table. :)
So, IMO they should just offer Ubuntu and leave it at that. Anyone who has a more specific preference can install whatever they want when they get the machine. Like I do when I find a windows box in my possession, but without the microsoft tax.
Though I agree with you on 'not paying the Microsoft Tax', I'm not so sure about bundling 'no OS' (or FreeDos).
/. can install Linux on a dead badger, but thats not the point. Its giving Linux a chance to be known outside of /.
Dell is giving Linux a chance to shine to Joe Average. He doesnt know about partitioning or different flavors, or what each do. Dell has to allow Mr. Average to use Linux and know nothing of it.
Most of
Check out Unsealed: Whispers of Wisdom! http://unsealed.k3rnel.net It's an action-RPG about Open Sourcerers.
In Finland: The hobbyists buy parts and "build" their own PeeSeas. The firms buy HP. Dell? Non-entity really. Dell? I think even Acer does better here ;-)
'Once scientists, even the dim-witted social scientists, get muzzled, the Western Civilization is finished.' - oldhack
I know that this flies in the open source/free software philosophy, but Dell should choose one distribution and stick with it. That way, they can set up specific Dell support groups. They can have a bunch of consumers who have bought the machines as free support in the groups. It will work.
Why? Because unlike say Apple who could have this work, the system will be much more open. Apple's system should work because people are locked into hardware and software, but everything is closed so it's tough if, for example, iTunes 7.1 keeps the hardware mounted volume controls from working, to get a fix. Everyone just has to wait for Apple to put out 7.1.1. With Dell and (my choice) Ubuntu, the system is open.
It could work. It could work very well.
Yeah, I'm as old as my UID would suggest.
if i ever so remember correctly, from a dell comercial that is, they made and customized a dell the moment your ordered it, now i'm not sure but doesn't asking people what they want preinstalled (by vote, no choice of others), whatever, whatever, make them liars?
I want linux. I've tried to get it working thrice; once redhat I was young and failed. Twice Ubuntu once my hard drive was dying so it didn't want to install I bought a new drive got it installed but the printer (lexmark) wouldn't work. I'm an above average user but have simple needs Internet, Email (on the internet), Word processing, a few spreadsheets, some graphics and some Publisher style documents, type form, burn a few audio and data CD's, listen to streaming media and MP3s. That being said, windows doesn't do it all out of the box. When I buy a new computer I have to run updates, get firefox, get realplayer updated, get WMP updated on many of my dells I've needed to install a DVD driver and useful burning software.
The success will come in making a true out of box experience. This would require a user interview of sorts. Companies should ask the Linux customer what the intend to use it for and not just recommend hardware but get that software pre-installed. I should click a few radio buttons then have a computer shipped with the software I need.
Dell does not know their customers. I'm not participating in any Linux poll that does not have a CowboyNeal option.
-R
Dell's survey server is dead.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Actually the esiest way to do it, would be to have a second drive. You could use existing Windows drives, put in a second drive.. install Ubuntu (if that's the way they go) on that, and grub (or lilo .. are there still lilo distros ?) will handle the dual boot.
waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
The question of support is a relatively minor one, since several Linux distros offer paid support. Just to pick one, Canonical offers paid support for Ubuntu. All Dell needs to do is reroute the more difficult support issues to Canonical - i.e. - the ones its own staff can't handle, include a "Paid Support" option when one buys a computer from Dell, take a cut of the payment (or tack on a bit more to it), and the problem is solved. Dell makes money, Canonical makes money, and the customer is happy with his/her Officially Supported Linux Dell Computer (apart from the reaming s/he took in the purchase process, of course).
I am not an animal! I am something worse!
1) Dell rep calls Suse, says they will pre-install Suse (and charge the going rate for it) if Suse will make the image and handle support (for the fee, of course).
2) Dell rep calls Red Hat. Cuts the same deal.
3) Dell makes images for 5-10 other distributions. Cost, perhaps a man month each, tops. So maybe $10-$15k of personel time. Charges 50% of the Suse/RedHat costs to pre-install the "community supported" option, includes huge disclaimer that they offer no support.
Dell gives you the option of any of the above on your new system. They modify their imaging solution ever so slightly to have 15 options (10 linux and 5 windows, rather than just 5 windows) and order entry system to allow the orders to pick.
Total cost to Dell? A few 10's of thousands to update all their imaging stations with 500 gig drives rather than 160 gig drives to store the images. Another $50k to update the order entry system. Plus costs per OS image developed.
Being generous, $500k of investment. Now, a half million is no chump change. But let's say they charge $25 for a Linux install (vrs $50-$70 to MS, for Windows et all). They only have to sell 20,000 boxes to recoup the investment. Given the number of computers Dell moves, if they can't sell 20,000 Linux boxes in a quarter or so (hey, an ROI of 3 months should be good enough) than their truely is no market for Linux.
Of course, the reality is it's probably such a broken large company that it will cost them $500k just to run the survey on their web site; and it's that level of mismanagement that will keep them from offering Linux.
Is this something Dell over looked?
Canonical offer commercial support for Ubuntu including Phone and Email support.
For those of you wondering why the survey server fell over: It is a 5 year old Dell 2450 2x1Ghz processors, 1GB RAM, 1x100Mbit LAN connection. Give it a break. We dont exactly have a huge budget over in the Linux group, if you haven't noticed. And the survey is a CGI. We aren't exactly running linux.dell.com on the hundred's of nodes cluster we use for our main dell.com page.
/proc/cpuinfo, but the lameness filter seems to object.
BTW, tried to post uname -a and
The choice of distribution should be decided by comparing the various methods the distributors use to update their distributions and picking the one which works best. Not the ease of the initial install, because Mr. Dell and his minions have done that for you already.
I can't comment about which one should be chosen because I have little experience apart from the single source code distribution I have been using for the last few years. However I'd like to point out that they have all had disasters of one kind or another.
They should also look at FreeBSD or a derivative thereof. PC-BSD worked very well indeed for me when I installed it. Is Darwin still offered under the BSD licence?
The choice of the underlying o/s, BSD or Linux, is imho technically irrelevant, it's governed by more by licencing considerations and whether the emotional preference is for "Intelligent Design" or for "Evolution".
I'm sure many potential users would prefer to have a very basic install which can be customised and built on by installing applications off a DVD, or by download from a server. FreeBSD does this superbly, as do most Linux distributions.
Finally, the one thing which we all need is a video card which is properly supported by an Open driver. If you do not need the high-speed 3D required by gamers, then the Matrox cards satisfy this requirement admirably.
Owners of Nvidia listening? No, I didn't think so. Miss out on a superb commercial opportunity then. So sorry shareholders.
E.g:
For support, I said that I wanted support from whoever produces the operating system. Basically, along with the purchase of the computer I would then get 3 years of support directly from RedHat or Novell or whoever, and Dell wouldn't have to increase their customer support head-count much, if at all.
Another example:
Which operating system?
Naturally, I chose ones that cost money rather than community-supported ones. Why? Because it provides more incentive for Dell, while still ensuring that they provide hardware that is fully compatible with Linux.
When dealing with gigantic companies such as Dell, it's about making compromises. Not everyone can have it exactly how they want it, and that's just how it goes for business in general.
- Sound automatically configured during installation.
- Wired broad-band connection easy to configure (PPP much more difficult).
- CUPS connection to USB Epson C80 printer super-easy to configure.
- DVD/RW configured automatically upon installation
- USB Flash just plain works. Simply plug the thing in.
- ATI 9600XT graphics card automatically configured.
In terms of installation ease, Ubuntu is practically OS X! As for Dell's true motivation for its Linux poll: all I can say is these corporate people have all proven themselves to be a slippery bunch of weasels. Who knows!The savvies know that Vista is will be a big flop. That's why, this time, Dell isn't afraid of going pro-linux. Vista is like the Iraq war: most people will be duped into buying it but every one of them will want out before it is over.
Why reinvent the wheel?
+ compatibility+list
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Linux+laptop
The truth shall set you free!
here is a quick summary of Dell printer Linux support. Notice all of the All In One printers are listed as paperweights. Novice Linux user has nothing to do with wanting hardware to work and having trouble doing it.
l
http://openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Del
These are listed under the paperweight catagory;
3010CN*
Photo 924*
Photo AIO Printer 920*
Photo AIO Printer 922*
Photo AIO Printer 944*
Photo AIO Printer 962*
Photo AIO Printer 964
The truth shall set you free!
With you 100%. I think Ubuntu would be a logical choice also, but ultimately it doesn't really matter, as long as they make the hardware compatible or distribute the drivers in such a way so that they can be migrated upstream into other distros. The beauty of OSS is that (in theory), if you can get a totally clean OSS system running on one set of hardware, you ought to be able to get another OSS distro running on it as well, with enough effort.
I'll point out that I have a "Linux certified" desktop (an HPaq, not a Dell) that I purchased for exactly that reason. I didn't really care about using RHEL, which is what it was 'certified' for, but the seal of approval on the hardware let me know that there probably wouldn't be any showstoppers in the box to cause issues later. (FWIW I run Xubuntu, and like it; I used to use Kubuntu but honestly I found its quasi-approximation of Windows almost as obnoxious as Windows itself, while Xfce seems a little less laden with Windows-philosophy in its design. But I digress.)
One minor addition -- that "No OS" option would never be put out there without a big, fat warning that it's not EVER to be used with Windows, particularly a Volume License Key version! This is a common misconception, but you CAN NOT legally install volume-licensed copies of Windows onto no-OS or white-box (or DIY) hardware. Period. The "site licenses" or VLKs that MS sells are "upgrade" licenses. They let you upgrade from the XP Home (or whatever) license that the hardware comes with, as indicated by a sticker somewhere on the chassis/case, to whatever version the VLK is good for. It is not a 'bare metal' license. A lot of people seem to not understand this, and in some cases I've heard stories of Microsoft sales reps perhaps even bending the truth when describing the VLK license. But if you actually read it, it's pretty clear that it's only an upgrade license (and frankly, kind of a ripoff). People who have Windows installed on un-stickered systems, and are hoping that their VLK will save them from the BSA gestapo, are sadly misinformed: in order to put Windows on a no-OS machine that wasn't purchased with an OEM license, you need to purchase a retail box of Windows that's not an upgrade.
I suppose if you were a big enterprise customer who was just going to drop your own custom image onto all your machines, it might be possible to buy PCs that had OEM Windows licenses, but didn't have anything actually on the drive, so you didn't have to format them on receipt, but I've never seen this.
References:
http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/resources/vol/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/08/27/ms_plays_
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
1) Why not release just the drivers for custom / non-kernel hardware. Nvidia and ATI have proven that customers will accept binary drivers if they work better than the open versions. They can be tested / "supported" on 1 or 2 distros only. Even better, that obsolves Dell of the tech-support nightmare they'll face when new users start having problems (as they do...) that are unrelated to the Dell customisation.
;-D
2) X is software, not hardware.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
How is a Joe user supposed to reach the poll page? I mean starting from www.dell.com
All we really need is solid, supported drivers for all peripherals. You can then change distros at will. This is especially a problem with laptops.
My rights don't need management.
But kaboom!
Most of these people will be just as happy with FreeBSD — and without the "Windows tax". Sadly, FreeBSD is still viewed by many as just "another distro".
Because I already use (and contribute to) the FreeBSD project. I mentioned the license differences as an incentive to Dell. Almost every appeal to a vendor to do something (open the source, adapt Linux, etc.) is accompanied by how lucrative and/or otherwise useful the step would be for the vendor (they'll sell more stuff, etc.). I did not want my appeal (which started this thread) to seem purely self-serving either :-)
Well, I misspoke. DRM is just means of enforcement. I should've said: "only a pirate would object to anti-filesharing efforts". But you got it:
Just as someone, who objects to GPL's limitations, should not pick GPL-ed software, someone else, who objects to the music copyright holder's whims, should not buy the holder's muzak.
Very simple and square. One's right to license their software any way they want (and enforce that license) is really no different from another's right license their music and other art as they please.
It is just that /. is a forum of software authors (and wannabees), rather than that of musicians or photographers. BTW, I'm sure, the latter are not above justifying use of cracked music-, video-, or photo-editing software either...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Get a grip buddy. Appraciate Dell's doing a survey. Rreport HTML bugs and patches like you would with any other site and don't take cheap shots.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Should they support every bundled package ?
- Hello, Dell customer support ? I have this problem when doing a cartoon using Blender...
...unfortunatly for the rest of the world it's still all Microsoft
Call me weird, but I think that if they test the hardware against a vanilla kernel from kernel.org, then I'd say you can be pretty sure it'll work with any distro.
This has come up many times since the 1990's. The distro that Dell or any other hardware vendor chooses is not so important. What is important would be to choose hardware that Linux can run on. Take it in small steps.