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Microsoft Says Free Software Violates 235 Patents

prostoalex writes "Microsoft told Fortune magazine that various free software products violate at least 235 patents, and it's time to expect users of this software to pay up patent licensing royalties: 'Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith and licensing chief Horacio Gutierrez sat down with Fortune recently to map out their strategy for getting FOSS users to pay royalties. Revealing the precise figure for the first time, they state that FOSS infringes on no fewer than 235 Microsoft patents.'"

88 of 1,217 comments (clear)

  1. The big fight LIVE! by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ladies and gentlemen, we have tonight a bout between two of the worlds greatest software idealogists.

    In the Blue corner weighing in at 289 pounds we have Monkey Boy Ballmer, his speciality move: The chair.
    In the Red corner, weighing in at 432 pounds we have the one and only R.M.S, speciality move, being R.M.S.

    Who will win this epic battle?

    --
    liqbase :: faster than paper
    1. Re:The big fight LIVE! by Ritchie70 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's real cute, but to me, the more interesting question is, will IBM wade in? They are heavy supporters of FOSS.

      I would guess that Microsoft probably infringes on some number of IBM patents - but then, pretty much everyone does. The thing I don't know is, does Microsoft already hve some patent license agreement (presumably some sort of blanket agreement) with IBM to cover them?

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    2. Re:The big fight LIVE! by southpolesammy · · Score: 5, Funny

      And in the Big Blue corner, weighing in at 800 lbs and wearing the obligatory monkey suit...

      --
      Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
    3. Re:The big fight LIVE! by Frizzle+Fry · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think IBM is as big a fan of their own patent stash as of linux and they would not do something that seriously jeopardizes their ability to hoard patents in order to help linux.

      --
      I'd rather be lucky than good.
    4. Re:The big fight LIVE! by tomhath · · Score: 4, Informative

      does Microsoft already hve some patent license agreement (presumably some sort of blanket agreement) with IBM to cover them

      Yes and No. When I worked for a big corporation (not IBM) we had an agreement with MS; we could use their patents, they could use ours. But Microsoft made it clear in the agreement that if we used open source software the cross-licensing didn't apply.

  2. Let me be the first to say... by msauve · · Score: 5, Funny

    Microsoft, fuck you!

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:Let me be the first to say... by aichpvee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, this is what happens when you base your economy on the ownership of ideas, and obvious ones at that, and on a ridiculous unlimited growth model that demands a constant push toward monopoly to ensure that unrealistic and otherwise unattainable growth.

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    2. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Tomy · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You must be talking about Microsoft, because the movement I belong to is about not letting others take my intellectual property and restricting others free use of it in the way in which I intended.

      Microsoft patents that Linux infringes on almost certainly include their patent of file system symlinks, which have been in Unix systems since the seventies, as well as a slew of other very obvious inventions, none of which have been tested in court. Getting a patent granted, as denizens of Slashdot are all too well aware, seems to be the easy part. Validating those patents in a court of law may be a little more difficult, especially when one of the supporters of linux, might have a patent portfolio that would push Balmer from chair throwing to crying uncle.

    3. Re:Let me be the first to say... by Jugalator · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, we'd better blame the software patents in the first place.
      It's time for the US to rid themselves of that law.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    4. Re:Let me be the first to say... by DaveG,+the+Quantum+P · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Nope, I refer you to the text base browser called "Lynx". This is a unix program and had tabbed navigating. So once again Microsoft claims a patent on something that it didn't invent.

    5. Re:Let me be the first to say... by dAzED1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      H.R.2795 hasn't been passed. "prior art" is still a viable means of invalidating something. And if MS is going to start leaning on the highly flawed patent "reform" before it even makes it out of committee, they'll likely just be digging the H.R.2795's grave next to their own.

      And even if we switch to "first to file," prior art will still invalidate the patent. Specifically, see section 135 - "Inventor's rights contests"

      Or start at the beginning, and patch it with the ammendments H.R.2795 would make

      Will it be substantially easier for MS to abuse patent law under H.R.2795? Absolutely. Will it make "prior art" invalid? Not at all. And, like I mentioned, it's not even out of committee yet ;)

  3. Software patents by gumbright · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Doesn't this just serve to show how screwed up the idea of software patents are?

    1. Re:Software patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed. If patents are supposed to patent non-obvious ideas, then how do you explain the number of software patent violations when software developers dont look at patents?

    2. Re:Software patents by spykemail · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Absolutely, and ultimately Microsoft is screwed either way. Either they attack FOSS and lose, or they don't attack and FOSS they lose anyway. There's no way they can win this fight - no matter how many lawsuits they file and how many open source projects they try to attack.

      If FOSS were somehow limited to the US, maybe they could hire enough lawyers to mount an offensive. But with the extremely strong chunks of the community around the world they literally have no chance. At best they can just fuck things up and make themselves look even more "evil" than they already do.

    3. Re:Software patents by kanweg · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm a patent agent and when I read the article contribution, the same argument sprang to mind and I looked whether someone had used this argument. I believe it has some validity, but unfortunately I also have a counter argument. A patent doesn't mean that nobody else could think of it, just that the ordinary person skilled in the art wouldn't think of it. And with the big FOSS community, there are surely sufficient people that stand out (i.e. aren't ordinary people skilled in the art), who also could come up with the idea.

      Bert
      Who believes that getting rid of software patents is an uphill battle with the upcoming revision of the European patent law (in particular because of TRIPS, which contains an innocent looking but very nasty clause, that patents must be obtainable in any technical field).

  4. Go ahead, make my day. by The+Monster · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Moglen contends that software is a mathematical algorithm and, as such, not patentable. (The Supreme Court has never expressly ruled on the question.)
    If MS has the cajones to file any patent suits, maybe Moglen or his successor can raise that issue.
    --

    [100% ISO 646 Compliant]
    SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.

  5. since when do users pay royalties? by ecklesweb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If I'm a licensee of a software package, particularly under the GPL, since when do I pay royalties and not the licensor?

    1. Re:since when do users pay royalties? by CRC'99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If I'm a licensee of a software package, particularly under the GPL, since when do I pay royalties and not the licensor?


      And an even more interesting connection, how do they intend to collect these said royalties?
      --
      Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing an editor and a MTA.
    2. Re:since when do users pay royalties? by igotmybfg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the article, it explains why Microsoft chose this route: Since FOSS is (nominally, if not practically) written by a loose band of volunteers, and because they don't really sell the software (with some exceptions, but generally mostly they give the software away and sell the support), it is extremely difficult to track them all down and make them pay royalties. It is much easier to just threaten the major corporate users (who are extremely risk averse). To quote Neal Stephenson, "Microsoft is ten times smarter than your average government, a hundred times more aggressive, and bound by no particular rules."

      In the old days, we called this extortion.

    3. Re:since when do users pay royalties? by The_Sledge · · Score: 5, Funny

      I would expect we all send MS a check for $0.01, really. The administrative headache will be the stuff of legend, and I imagine MS will have to create a whole new department and employ an extra 1,000 people for mail handling and admin processing.

      --
      HEX offender mugshot ID: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    4. Re:since when do users pay royalties? by Dunkirk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is really key. The fight shouldn't be against me, using the software at home, or even a distributor of a collection of compiled programs. It should be -- if we accept that software patents as an idea is even valid -- against the people who wrote it. They are the ones that are infringing Microsoft's patents.

      Microsoft wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want to sue "Linux" for violating 235 patents, when in actuality, they should undertake roughly 235 SEPARATE lawsuits against the individual programmers whose code infringes. IT'S NOT LIKE THAT'S A SECRET. Code is always attributed in the free software world.

      And what's with not being specific as to the patents? More SCO-like nonsense. They're afraid of giving people time to "open source" the defense using something like Groklaw to rally around.

      --
      Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
    5. Re:since when do users pay royalties? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No one pays for Microsofts products now how do they expect anyone to pay M$ for the products that aren't theirs in the first place?

      Uh, not sure what planet you're from, but I don't think many companies run pirated and cracked versions of Windows and Office. Whether you bother to shell out a few bucks for a legit copy, or just Bittorrent it, hardly matters. Your retail-box purchase, or lack thereof, is a piddly little nothing compared to the real money, which is in the corporate userbase, and OEM pre-installs.

      You pay for Microsoft every time you go to a store that uses Windows-based POS terminals. You pay for it every time you go to a doctor's office with Windows PCs for running their scheduling. When you order something from a web site that ships goods from a warehouse that uses Windows on the pickers' terminals. Microsoft has insinuated itself into the "cost of doing business," and you pay for it, in fractions of a cent, every time you do anything.

      Oh, and you also pay for them when you pay your taxes (or when your employer pays your taxes for you, because you're not trusted to actually do it), because the U.S. Federal government, like most other countries, is essentially a Microsoft shop through and through.

      You only think that you're not paying for Microsoft's products, and that's exactly how they like it.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  6. no patents by Spy+Handler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    free software violates 235 MS patents?

    Ok just get rid of software patents. Software should've never been permitted to be patented in the first place.

  7. Microsoft is silly by Shados · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course, it was fairly obvious that free software would infridge on some MS patents: there's so much code from so many people, including people who have no clue what they're doing (don't get me wrong, also a lot from totally brilliant people!), and I doubt maintainers check the source at every checkin to be sure no patent is being messed with...

    However, I always saw it as a way for Microsoft to loosen its illegal monopoly status: by letting free software use some of its patents, its leveling the playing field.

    And now they screwed it up. Countdown before more anti-thrust lawsuits start, 5...4...3...2....

  8. Deja Vu? by earthforce_1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tell Mr. Balmer he is welcome to a portion of the $699 Linux IP license I paid SCO. I hear they sold lots and lots of them.

    --
    My rights don't need management.
  9. where is the list of patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Here's what the interview should have been:

    Microsoft: It's a fact that Linux and free software infringe hundreds of our patents.

    Journalist: Which ones?

    Microsoft: Well, the kernel violates 60, the GUI violates...

    Journalist (interrupting): which 60? Where is the list?

    Microsoft: I'm not prepared to disclose that at this time.

    Journalist: Well this is a big fucking waste of my time, isn't it?

    Journalist: I went through this same dance with Darl McBride. Call me when you have something to say, bye

    1. Re:where is the list of patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      He couldn't list them because IBM owns the patent on listing patents.

  10. So then by The+Analog+Kid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Start litigating Microsoft, you're not working in the shareholder's favor by sitting idle and letting these blatant IP violations go unpunished.

    1. Re:So then by visualight · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seriously, I hope that someone of note DARES microsoft to file a suit against some project. If they had any intention of doing so, they would have, and they wouldn't be giving people this "heads up". Clearly a bluff.

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
  11. Show it. by christurkel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you have evidence, show it. If it's infringing, it'll be removed. But you don't want to. You want to spread FUD to generate $$$.

    --

    CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
    1. Re:Show it. by Error27 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Microsoft has between 15 and 20 patents on moving the cursor around (look it up). Please remove all your cursors.

      The point about software patents is that the only way to protect yourself is to counter sue or to move to Europe.

  12. Too late by Jimmy_B · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Supreme Court recently ruled that the courts don't get to pretend that patents on obvious things are valid. It is unlikely that /any/ of these 235 patents will hold up in court. Microsoft is just using them to create FUD; they know they won't get any judgements.

    1. Re:Too late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Seeing as you don't know what any of the 235 patents are, or what any of the free software that allegedly violates them is, it looks like you're just posting to create FUD. You have no idea whether or not these patents are obvious, invalid, or will not hold up in court. You may have like open source software better than Microsoft, but your baseless opinion doesn't magically invalidate all of Microsoft's patents in the eyes of the law.

  13. Shows you the fear by microsoft_hater · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This shows how fearful Microsoft is really starting to get paranoid about the linux desktop revolution. 2007 is *the* year, I don't care what anyone else thinks--I know this to be true because this is the first year I've actually got friends to honestly convert over to free software/OSS software. And they're even talking shit about MS now that they've seen the light! With all the linux populatization going on these days--microsoft is shaking in its boots... The days are quickly approaching when microsoft is bound to become an even more dreary version of GM. A question for those more knowledgeable than me on this subject--was microsoft not behind the whole SCO debacle? Perhaps they've now taken their proxy war public. They're pathetic.

  14. cAjones != cOjones by mangu · · Score: 5, Funny
    If MS has the cajones to file any patent suits


    A cajón is a big box (the aumentative of caja). A cojón is a testicle. Maybe that's the word you were looking for?

    1. Re:cAjones != cOjones by The+Monster · · Score: 4, Funny

      I had seen the spelling 'cajones' on furniture, and had imputed that it meant 'drawers'. Gracias por la explicación. So the question is not whether one has cajones, but whether there are cojones in the cajones.

      --

      [100% ISO 646 Compliant]
      SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.

    2. Re:cAjones != cOjones by swillden · · Score: 5, Informative

      I had seen the spelling 'cajones' on furniture, and had imputed that it meant 'drawers'.

      Both are right. "Cajón" is the augmented form of "caja", which is box, so it literally means "large box". However, spanish speakers don't really use it that way, if they want to describe a large box they'd say "caja grande", the word "cajón" is really only used for medium to large drawers. Small drawers, like those on a jewelry box or some such, are called by the diminutive form "cajita".

      The various modifier suffixes that can be placed on nouns is one of the coolest features of spanish, IMO. -ón (big), -ote (even bigger), -ito (small, cute, precise), -ejo (big and ugly) ... and others that I can't think of at the moment. You can make nice words like "cojoncitos" and "cojonejos", and there are thousands of really awful puns that can be constructed by noting that one word with a suffix sounds the same (or close to the same) as another word. Spanish is a great language.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  15. I'm willing to bet by zappepcs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    that most of these 'patents' that MS owns are general in scope and probably would make all other OS's infringing on their patents anyway, not just free software. I believe it's time to work on making process/software patents unacceptable, especially when they are so broad that no other company could work in the same space. Patents on things like "integrating email client functionality into office apps" is just too broad, and as such can only serve to hamper innovation and business in general.

    When MS can claim to have 235 patents that are violated by F/OSS we need to look closely at why they have that many that can be infringed upon by people so easily... perhaps they are not unobvious at all or too broadly stated to be of use other than to be an offensive tool to use against competitors.

  16. And the strategy comes through by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems that this is going to be the final "slow bleed" for Microsoft. People aren't buying Vista (in fact, Dell is reoffering XP on systems just to shut up annoyed users). But hey - they have the lawsuits, and they'll be more than happy to pull a SCO and threaten to sue the pants off of people who don't pay off their protection racket.

    Odds are, they'll be smarter about it than SCO - rather then go right for IBM (with tons of dollars to pay lawyers), they'll make "deals" with places like Novell and others so insure that PC tax continues no matter whom the likes of Dell and Gateway and others finally go through.

    The sad thing is, there still isn't a great competitor to Windows. Linux is nice and Ubuntu and other distros have come far, but it seems they lack that final step (like "How do I change my screen resolution?" or other bits that only techies would know). OS X is my preferred OS as a security analyst, but it only runs on one system (I know - Apple sells hardware, blah, blah, blah, but damn - if they make Leopard for *all* X86 systems, they might take over the desktops - I've met plenty of CIO's who want that).

    Either way, Microsoft's plan is to continue to be the "gasoline" of computers: they don't make the computers, but they get paid for every one that's made. Through their threats and strategic lawsuits/threatening of lawsuit, they'll ensure their money for a long time to come.

    Unless, of course, there's enough people who stand up and say "No" and pool together *their* money to help companies fight back....

  17. Users file suit against Microsoft for .... by BrentRJones · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...infringment on 1) use of numbers 2) use of words, punctuation, sentences... 3) use of algebra sum(A1:A22) 4) excessive problems with operating systems and applications -- I can prove my mental condition is much worse having used MS products and so on...

    And our lawyers will work pro bono because so many of them hate MS too.

    --
    Help end the use of Sigs. Tomorrow
  18. Real hardball by wytcld · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We've been joking about world domination and the evil empire for years here. But despite the kidding around, despite our biases, we've never been motivated to go all-out. We can ruin Microsoft. In the terrain of the Internet we hold much of the high ground - the servers, as well as not a few firewall-routers and other essential equipment. Microsoft for years has had no qualms about breaking competitors' functionality. We can cripple Microsoft's functionality in a wide variety of real-time environments - and stay a hair's breath within the law just as they've (almost) done.

    Building stuff that can replace Microsoft's products is one thing - honest competition really. But we've never stooped to Microsoft's own favored methods of dishonest competition. Is Redmond really stupid enough to motivate us to take that step?

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  19. It won't only be the little people by tqft · · Score: 4, Informative


    Last paragraph
    "
    If push comes to shove, would Microsoft sue its customers for royalties, the way the record industry has?

    "That's not a bridge we've crossed," says CEO Ballmer, "and not a bridge I want to cross today on the phone with you."
    "

    Tech company sue it's own customers?

    --
    The Singularity is closer than you think
    Quant
  20. WTF? by mormop · · Score: 4, Insightful

    FTA:

    "Microsoft counters that it is a matter of principle. "We live in a world where we honor, and support the honoring of, intellectual property," says Ballmer in an interview. FOSS patrons are going to have to "play by the same rules as the rest of the business," he insists. "What's fair is fair."

    Since when? Of all the corporations that have trampled small businesses IP rights Microsoft have to be the biggest shower of shits in existence. Most of their product range is based on other people's ideas and much of that, e.g. IE was ripped from small business with minimal reward to the innovator.

    Basically, name them. Yep, name the infringements. Don't hide behind lawyers and withhold information, BE SPECIFIC!! Many of the IP claims that Microsoft put forward to the EU were minor extensions to existing Open Source software and are no "innovative" enough to justify the high fees requested, equivalent to making an add on to a car and claiming IP over the entire car. If accidental infringment has occured then it's reasonable to allow the FOSS authors the chance to remedy the situation by rewriting code but it's also reasonable to give them access to the information required to perform the task.

    It's a constant embarrassment to me that the toadying twat that runs my country saw fit to give a convicted monopolist and proven unfair player like Gates a knighthood and until Microsoft starts behaving in a reasonable and honest manner Gates, Ballmer and Co. can stick their royalties up their arses where their heads have been for the last twenty years.

    To reiterate, STATE YOUR CLAIMS IN FULL. Stop hiding behind misinformation, partial information and the pathetic, sad bullshit that has for so long been a trademark for Microsoft business practice.

      There, I feel a bit better now.

    --
    Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
  21. The big problem is that... by Svartalf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    MS violates a goodly portion of the Open Innovation Network patent pool. Sue Linux or a batch of participating FOSS projects and get a goodly portion of their server and other products shut down but good. They flatly don't want to do this. In all honesty they really don't want to be doing this sabre rattling either, but they're being stupid because Vista's NOT doing well for them and costing them dearly.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    1. Re:The big problem is that... by rbanffy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The question is who has more money for a long legal war.

    2. Re:The big problem is that... by KTheorem · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The question is who has more money for a long legal war.

      Nope, that's not the question. The real question is who has more customers that can be sued for patent infringement.

      Being a consumer in no way protects you against patent infringement lawsuits. So, even if no one has enough money to challenge MicrSoft on the patent issue, many groups have enough money to bully MicroSoft customers until it decides to stop with the patent threats/suits.

    3. Re:The big problem is that... by Gerzel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No. The big problem is not a legal fight between MS and any OSS or other parties over patents. At least if MS is smart.

      The way I see them going it far more insidious. This is publicity. They are hinting that OSS is infringing on their patents and are openly saying that "free software" should pay for the privilege of using said patents. The idea is to get this out into the public sphere, and to make people start to get nervous thinking about "free software" as possible patent infringement or as they would likely put it if this works, pirating.

      The idea is to make people worry about a legal technicality as if they are breaking the law by association. In order to do this MS has to put out several complaints over a period of time, and probably sponsor "education campaigns" to teach kids about copyright and patent infringement.

      They don't need to stop those who are educated in getting OSS, all they have to do is add another worry for people who are non-tech savey who might adopt OSS.

    4. Re:The big problem is that... by ozmanjusri · · Score: 5, Insightful
      they're being stupid because Vista's NOT doing well for them and costing them dearly.

      Yeah, you get the feel there's some sort of end-game being played out here, but it all started well before it became clear Vista was going to be a dog.

      The thing is, if Microsoft divulges what the FOSS patent breaches actually are, the community will respond promptly, and that particular bullet will have been fired. Until Microsoft's list is actually available, we don't know how much harm they'll be able to do, but there's not much chance they'll be able to inflict fatal damage to FOSS.

      This patent grab is essentially a one-shot hit, and until now, was always more valuable as a FUD threat than an actual tool of coercion. That Microsoft is choosing to use it now is indicative that they believe it's value as FUD has waned, and I suspect that has more to do with the outcome of their their patent proxy SCO's efforts than with Vista's failure.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    5. Re:The big problem is that... by cHiphead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Perhaps you forgot how MS padded their early numbers with XP as well? Its smoke and mirrors, if Vista is doing so damn well, why did Dell feel it was necessary to start offering XP again on their business systems? Vista is a no-go for 99% of the larger business clients I work with, the other 1% is 'just in case' someone goes nuts tomorrow morning and decides to do it.

      100% of the small business clients I work with are not adopting Vista. The only place I have seen it show up is in new laptops someone ordered from Dell (with Vista Home Premium, and 512mb-1gb, no less), that were ordered without consulting the IT consultants or in-house team. A handful of clients asked about adopting it simply because it was the 'new' Microsoft 'thing', not aware of the hardware upgrades that would come with it (2k to XP was a matter of getting everyone to 512mb from 128-256 to run good, now its a matter of going from 512mb to 2gb for good performance).

      I wish Vista was just XP SP3, but its not, its XP SP2.6 Smoking Crack. It changes the look and feel of Windows, mainly system settings drastically, even experienced end users have a learning curve and in corporate environments this is a bad thing. Don't even get me started on the replacement of add/remove programs. The bottom line is, if we need a more Mac-like interface, we'd buy Macs and improve centralized management for corporate environments.

      If Microsoft actually pursues any of the claims againts OSS, they are going to get hammered, HARD. IBM notwithstanding, what do you think keeps Google running? OSS has a large field of successful companies that make good money with OSS and will stand up to them, its simply too late to leverage against them.

      The SCO Group is a very sad case, primarily because everything Caldera purchased in regards to legacy Unix was intended to free up a lot of potential patent/etc. issues in Linux for all users/vendors/coders. They reneged on that intention when Ransom Love and anyone that was playing the OSS game at Caldera was kicked to the curb.

      Bring on the comments and criticisms, I fully expect to start moving companies to Vista within a year, but anyone with minimal reasoning ability is hesitant to perform a major rollout to inconsistent underperforming hardware so early in the adoption phase.

      Cheers.

      --

      This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    6. Re:The big problem is that... by eric76 · · Score: 5, Informative

      35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent.

      (a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.

      Note the word "uses". That means that if you use a device that is in violation of a patent, you could be found liable for that use.

      The patent owner can go after the manufacturer of a device infringing his patent, those selling or offering the device for sale, and the end users.

      As I understand it, they couldn't generally collect from everyone involved because that would be double or triple dipping. For example, if the manufacturer settles, then that makes the patent owner whole and absolves the others.

    7. Re:The big problem is that... by AJWM · · Score: 5, Informative

      they couldn't generally collect from everyone involved because that would be double or triple dipping. For example, if the manufacturer settles, then that makes the patent owner whole and absolves the others.

      That depends entirely on the nature of the settlement. There was a case few years ago where Timeline settled with Microsoft (some database technology issue), then announced that the deal with Microsoft did not cover end users -- and the courts agreed.

      --
      -- Alastair
    8. Re:The big problem is that... by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know my school suddenly became a member of the Microsoft Developer Network Academic Alliance because they were almost giving the memberships away. Which meant all the CS majors downloaded free copies of MS Vista Business. Which meant that we went through an eCommerce site where we filled our carts and ran through "checkouts" that stated we owed $0.00, which seemed funny at the time. Now I know several hundred copies of Vista showed up as "sold" when they weren't really.

    9. Re:The big problem is that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More simply from another angle, a corporation is generally viewed under the law as a individual entity, aka an individual. Suing a corp is no different than suing an individual in these matters, and since it's obviously clear corps sue the hell out of each other, I don't see why you couldn't go after actual meat/flesh/human/real individuals in the same manner.

      But what I really wanted to get to--note how wonderfully this really might work out for Linux. We should be SALIVATING at this opportunity. See, it's irrelevant at present who can or can't be sued. Why? Because in both scenarios, MS shoots their legs off (no, not just their foot). It's that bad for them because they have both more customers AND deeper pockets--the result is actually more than additive:

      First, if MS's talk isn't FUD and they actually implement this stupid plan of theirs, new case law will come up to quickly clarify the extent which tier can be sued or both (customer or manufacturer or both).

      If one can sue customers, then (1) MS has the largest customer base presently and worse, (2), just opened up their customer base to counter lawsuits from IBM, Redhat, etc.--and (3) it won't just be open season on Linux, but whoever wants a piece of MS, companies using MS (think Fortune 500 companies and their accumulated wealth).

      (4) In turn, their customers may very well then have a case against MS in civil court (and if limited there, may be protected by certain consumer protection laws), since it was their product that caused you, the consumer/customer, to be sued. IANAL, but usually a EULA is enforced by contract law, and I recall parts of a contracted can be voided and a party held responsible if something in it is found to violate a law (iow, law overrides contracts). (5) Even consumer protection laws may kick in (as well as potentially interesting local laws).

      OTOH, if the case law turns out to be such that you cannot sue customers or must sue a higher tier, well, MS's plan/threats/FUD about suing customers just went down the drain. Customers are safe. MS starts suing larger companies at their own risk in the typical legal battle.

    10. Re:The big problem is that... by Ravnen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most of microsoft's money is on paper in the value of their stock and furture business.
      No, this is not true. When people speak of Microsoft's $30 bn in cash, this is exactly what it is: cash, cash equivalents and short-term investments that can be directly converted into cash. It has absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft's share price, or with future business.

      Perhaps you're thinking of Bill Gates's wealth of $50 bn or whatever it is. I would expect much of that is made up of Microsoft shares, so a change in the share price would change his net worth, but that's completely separate from Microsoft's enormous cash hoard.

    11. Re:The big problem is that... by Don+Negro · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If Microsoft starts sueing IBMs customers, then IBM will go to war, just like they did against SCO. IBM Legal aren't know as The Nazgul for no reason.

      If this comes to blows, IBM will have to a) provide non-infringing replacements, or b) indemnify their customers and go to the mattresses with their unparalleled patent arsenal. My guess is the MS just bit off more than they can chew. There are some rules you never break, and getting into a patent battle with IBM is right up there with starting a land war in Asia.

      --

      Don Negro
      Perl 6 will give you the big knob. -- Larry Wall

    12. Re:The big problem is that... by Jesus_666 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It was already stated that Microsoft uses a good number of IBM-patented things. Currently they seem to have some sort of agreement (such as a blanket license), but if Microsoft really starts bullying IBM customers IBM might pull out the blanket agreement (if they can) and start bullying Microsoft (or its customers, depending on what's possible). IBM might be able to undo "Noboy Ever Got Fired For Buying Microsoft" and that's bad PR on a scale even Microsoft should fear.

      I'd like to see IBM lean on Microsoft and point out that patent warfare is a multiplayer game. If Microsoft isn't out to raise the bar on corporate stupidity that should silence them quite fast.


      By the way, notice something? Who just entered a patent agreement with Microsoft and thus can't participate in this fight? Right, Novell. For some reason I like that corp less and less...

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    13. Re:The big problem is that... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not quite the clear cut. In the US you are (now) not allowed to claim damages that occurred between first discovering that the patent was being infringed, and taking action. This was introduced to prevent people from waiting until the defendant had more money before suing, rather than letting them know.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  22. Not relevent by rumblin'rabbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First, free here means free as in freedom, not free as in beer. Many companies have made money from "free software" (e.g., Red Hat), and it's considered perfectly kosher to do so provided you keep to the terms of the licenses.

    Second, patents apply to almost all use, not just to things that are bought and sold - you can't undercut someone else's patents by giving away their inventions for free.

    Third, every company that uses free software (and who doesn't?) does so presumably for commercial advantage.

  23. Wow by Dirtside · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Not that it's at all unexpected, coming from Fortune--a bastion of support for giant corporations--but man, is that article biased. I love the photos on the right: A picture of Steve Ballmer, wearing a suit, looking harmless, and captioned "The patent owner", followed by a picture of Richard Stallman, looking like an Al Qaeda member, captioned "The patent hater". Maybe this is just a coincidence but I like how they refer to RMS specifically as "Richard Matthew Stallman," which makes him sound like a presidential assassin or serial killer. Like there's another Richard Stallman we might get him confused with if they didn't use his middle name? :)

    Later the article manages to imply that there's only one license that all FOSS projects use. You get three guesses which license it is, and the first two don't count.

    Does anyone know where we can find out the 235 patents that MS claims are infringed? TFA didn't give any examples.

    --
    "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    1. Re:Wow by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Funny

      Did you read the whole article? Or did you get bored after looking at the pictures?

      It presents both sides of the argument fairly to me. It has plenty of praise for RMS on page 2. It clearly states that Microsoft's actions are unsound and likely to result in harm to the software industry on page 3.

      All in all, I think the article is pretty balanced.

      A picture of Steve Ballmer, wearing a suit, looking harmless,

      Oh, and your idea of harmless and mine are clearly different. He looks ready to explode in that picture.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
  24. Which ones? by swillden · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Come on Microsoft, don't pull a SCO. If you think there's a problem, point it out so we can fix it. Tell us what patents, exactly, are infringed and what software, exactly, is infringing.

    Sure, it's a bit risky. Any patents you point out are going to be put under a microscope and the collective knowledge of a very large and lore-rich community will be brought to bear in an exhaustive search for prior art, but if you really think the patents are truly valuable, novel inventions, and that you are really being damaged by their infringement, tell us so we can find a way to avoid infringing.

    If we can't find prior art, and can't find a way to show that the software isn't actually infringing, and can't find a FOSS-friendly company to use its patent portfolio to negotiate a deal, then we'll get busy finding a way to change the software so it doesn't infringe. Actually, given the nature of the community, we'll probably change the software so it doesn't infringe even if we can address the issue another way. We don't like software patents, but we feel quite strongly about making sure that our software is free from any legal encumbrance. Tell us what the problem is and we'll try to fix it.

    But, please, the biggest software company in the world should have at least a *little* dignity. Don't pull a SCO.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  25. Re:I am sure they are right... by White+Shade · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It doesn't matter if the patent is "worth" anything, the fact of the matter right now is, if something IS infringing on that patent, it's breaking the law, and until the patent gets revoked or the laws change, that's the way it is. Even if all 235 get struck down, that's still a hell of a lot of judgments, court cases, and legal work to be involved.

    We can't just ignore it because "software patents are wrong". Until the courts agree, we have to live with it.

    --
    ìì!
  26. Microsoft's new mantra for 2007 by hacker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is part of Microsoft's new Vista campaign for 2007 and 2008:

    "If you can't innovate... LITIGATE!"

    I RTFA, and I don't see an itemized list of the FOSS packages which they claim infringe, and the relevant patent numbers that are apparently infringed-upon. Until I see an itemized list, I can't properly audit my collection of FOSS to replace or rewrite those referenced packages.

    Until I see an itemized list of FOSS packages and relevant patent numbers, this is all just smoke.

  27. I suppose the article was 3 pages long.. by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    but if you go read it, you'll see how.

    Ahh, who am I kiddin'? Here's the skinny:

    Microsoft has been approaching Fortune 500's for years now and offering to sell "patent licenses" on any of the software that the companies might be using without one. Basically, it's extortion. "We think you might be running software which utilizes our patented technology without a license, but don't worry, we're not going to sue you, so long as you buy this license from us."

    That takes care of all the big fish.. last year they went after the little fish too, by approaching Novell and making that patent deal you might have heard of. When Redhat crumbles (assuming they haven't already) we'll all be paying a Microsoft tax.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:I suppose the article was 3 pages long.. by VENONA · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "When Redhat crumbles (assuming they haven't already) we'll all be paying a Microsoft tax."

      Ever seen Red Hat crumble before? No. So why assume they already have? A generic Red Hat hater? One reason that Slashdotters don't like them is media players. They stay away from murky situations, because they are in a largely corporate market. Now you're seeing *why* they stay away from murky situations. TFA mentions that they've spoken with MS. You'll notice they didn't do a Novell-style deal.

      Did you see them freaking out when Oracle went after them? Nope. The stock tumbled, then recovered once people realized the world wasn't ending.

      Red Hat spends a lot of money on Linux, paying kernel and gcc devs, etc. Perhaps you're angry with them for not shipping codecs. Or for bagging the Red Hat desktop when they were losing money on it. I, personally don't have any such issues--and I was a RH desktop user when they dumped it. I could see where they were coming from.

      Assume they've already buckled? I'd give long odds that you are dead wrong. I suspect that more than a few people are going to discover how tough, and principled, Red Hat is. This is the basis of their business, and unlike Novell, they don't have fools at the helm.

      The silver lining is that I get to buy more stock, cheap. Just like after the Oracle attack. I made a few thousand then, and expect to make a few thousand over this SCO-like insanity, as well. Perhaps I'm wrong. But I'll be putting my money up.

      --
      What you do with a computer does not constitute the whole of computing.
  28. Re:Dell? by Psychor · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Lets keep things in perspective here. The fact is that no matter how many OSS fans on Slashdot claim Microsoft is up against the ropes, it doesn't make it the true, and in fact their earnings are well up on this period last year. I'm sure Microsoft's motives for claiming they may have patents on Linux are entirely political, and that if they were actually going to bring lawsuits against major players, they'd have done it before making threats about it (which could harm their legal position in any case).

    However, Microsoft is leagues ahead of Linux in the desktop market, and people claiming that Dell selling XP boxes instead of Vista marks the death knell for the company and suchlike is clear Linux fanboyism and propaganda. Whichever of their OSes they're selling, they're still paying Microsoft hefty licensing fees, and that is unlikely to change as long as their OS and office suite is ubiquitous in the corporate world. Microsoft may be deceitful and manipulative, but anyone comparing this to a dying company making a last ditch grab for cash in SCO style is clearly stupid or ill-informed, however much we might wish that to be the case.

  29. Re: reasoning me-self. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I take none of those products was a spell checker.

  30. This kind of PR stuff is a double edged sword by DrYak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Their problem is that they can't just keep braging that there are "238 patent violations in various OSS". The SCO case has proven how much staying vague about the actual violations is useful.

    Microsoft, for credibility will have to produce a detailled list of said patent violations (and eventually a list of specific OSS application that they think are infringing).

    And this, my friends, is a double edged sword.
    On one hand, it will show that Microsoft HAS tangible proof that OSS are inferior because no company can be held responsible for patents infringement, and that patent lawyers will go after the users. ...BUT...
    On another hand, such a list, and maybe a couple of days of work distributed across the whole community is everything needed to circumvent said patent and implement it either with a slightly different approach (see marching cubes vs. tetrahedron in 3D), using more generalised version (arithmetic coding vs. range coding in compression), or simply recycle some very old code in place - code who's age is a proof of prior art.

    And suddenly, all this MS PR stunt is moot.
    Just imagine :
    This week press titles "Microsoft says OSS dangerous because patent mine field", "New microsoft sponsored studies proves TCO to by higher for OSS because of patent fees", "Microsoft to go after individual users MAFIAA style".
    Next week press titles "238 patches and upgrades on Debian and Ubuntu repositories", "OSDL sponsored study proves that OSS has the highest reaction time in terms of patch release", "RMS & Linus to give speech about strengths of OSS development ; Ballmer responds throwing chairs".

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:This kind of PR stuff is a double edged sword by _KiTA_ · · Score: 4, Funny

      Next week press titles "238 patches and upgrades on Debian and Ubuntu repositories", "OSDL sponsored study proves that OSS has the highest reaction time in terms of patch release", "RMS & Linus to give speech about strengths of OSS development ; Ballmer responds throwing chairs".

      You're forgetting some other important ones:

      "Linus Torvals demands to see proof of Linux patent violations." "All of Europe calls for a ban on Software Patents, again." "IBM claims Windows violates 15,302 IBM Patents, demands reasonable fee of $1 per patent per copy of Windows sold."

    2. Re:This kind of PR stuff is a double edged sword by aussie_a · · Score: 4, Insightful
      No patents do NOT protect ideas. They protect implementations of ideas (i.e. inventions). It is definitely possible to implement an old idea (or a patented idea) in a new (and even innovative way) that isn't under patent. Having said that....

      It would be very difficult to create an alternative to an established idea such as this. This is true. Some of these patents will be valid (under US law) and as such will require those that wish to distribute and develop them in the US to remove these infringements and won't be able to implement the ideas without infringing on the patent. Hopefully this will spur OSS projects to develop new and innovative solutions to the problems the patents solve and it will spur creativity and be of benefit to everyone. Hopefully it will encourage OSS developers to stop playing catch up and innovate instead (as some already do).
  31. Re:If they're slam-dunks... by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Problem: the language of patents is interpretable only by lawyers.
    Problem: most FOSS projects don't have the resources to make sure they don't violate patents.

    No, those are not the problems you're looking for.

    There are roughly 1,400 (Patent Storm Search) Microsoft patents covering OS kernels. Microsoft says Linux is infringing 45 of them. A quick look through those patents will bring up gems like Patent 6711625, found on the first page of results;

    "The method of the invention enables a procedure to handle a large data file, wherein the procedure has a fixed, limited allocation of memory that is less than the size of the data file. The method segments the large data file into one or more subfiles, wherein each subfile is of a datasize that does not exceed the limited allocation. Thereafter, the method sequentially activates the procedure to operate upon each subfile, until all subfiles have been processed.
    Microsoft currently has about 24,000 Patent Storm patents in its portfolio, a significant proportion of which should never have been granted. Microsoft is using those dodgy patents to generate FUD, and make businesses less likely to use software which competes with its own products. That's the real problem.
    --
    "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  32. Microsoft is the new SCO. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The idea is to ... make people start to get nervous..."

    So, Microsoft is the new SCO. The result will eventually be the same.

    Adversarial behavior eventually destroys those who engage in it.

    If you want a very good indication of the effect this new rotten behavior by Microsoft will have, just look at the Slashdot comments. People are ready for this after years of considering SCO. The parent comment is an example of this; the parent comment shows complete understanding. The SCO case has prepared us.

    Microsoft has always depended on ignorance. That ignorance is disappearing.

  33. Software patent games are the new McCarthyism. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This Slashdot story about "235 patents in free software" reminds me of 205 communists in the State Department: "... in February 1950, an undistinguished, first-term Republican senator from Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy, burst into national prominence when, in a speech in Wheeling, West Virginia, he held up a piece of paper that he claimed was a list of 205 known communists currently working in the State Department. McCarthy never produced documentation for a single one of his charges, but for the next four years he exploited an issue that he realized had touched a nerve in the American public."

    Microsoft is to software what McCarthy was to politics?

    1. Re:Software patent games are the new McCarthyism. by gwait · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, this is a great way to fight back,
      start referring to Balmer as the new McCarthy, paint them with that nasty brush, it's a PR nightmare if it catches hold.
      Emphasize the chair tossing, all the nasty things MS has done to the competitors over the years, what politician/lawmaker would want to be identified with the new McCarthy?

      Say, Apple OSX has BSD unix under the hood, but I bet they don't go after apple with this smear campaign.
      Much easier scare small businesses out of using linux.

      Oh, and Hah!, to the novell people who claim they didn't sell out.

      --
      Bavarian Purity Law of Rice Krispie Squares: Rice Krispies, Marshmallows, Butter, Vanilla.
  34. Re: reasoning me-self. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Windows Vista costs US$ 300. I'm dividing and conquering it.

    US$ 50 for many lawyers + US$ 50 for the judgement coasts + US$ 50 for the tons of papers + US$ 50 for the fueling + US$ 50 for the food diets + US$ 50 for SCOX's NASDAQ + US$ 200 for my pockets = US$ 500!!

    US$ 300 - US$ 500 = US$ -200!!! And no money to pay to the M$ developers!!!

    Conclusion: the M$'s software is bad software for the users.

  35. Microsoft flunks global test by scoove · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What a serious strategic error this is, even if its only a PR trial balloon. Not only has Microsoft ignored a significant shift in national intellectual property law (per recent Supreme court decisions) and pretended the collapse of SCO litigation was irrelevant, but Microsoft once again presumes all commerce is predicated on U.S. intellectual property law.

    Faced with serious issues in Australia, China, nearly every emerging market and even much of the EU, Microsoft wants to play "us vs. them" with open source? Even much of the Fortune 500 has been investing significantly into Linux (such as the corporation I work for, which is one of the larger global financial companies). Our company didn't take previous patent trolls lightly, and Microsoft's reliability issues don't give it a reliable foundation on which to make life any more difficult for us.

    In an era of unprecedented foreign confiscation of pharmaceutical intellectual property, can Microsoft be this utterly ignorant and stupid? Does Microsoft not realize it has zero leverage outside the U.S., facing serious penalties in the EU for its disregard for their law and even worse conditions elsewhere? Does it really believe it can force Brazil, China, Mexico, India, Malaysia, emerging Eastern Europe, Russia and countless other markets to pay excessive royalties for a bunch of questionable patents it had its attorneys sneak through? The only certain outcome is that U.S. intellectual property law will be even further ignored and real issues like drug patent confiscations more common.

    Apparently SCO was only the warm-up act. This certainly is going to be an interesting train wreck for us to watch if they venture down this path.

    *scoove*

    1. Re:Microsoft flunks global test by dilby · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't know what issues your talking about in Australia. Our current government motto when it comes to U.S. intellectual property law (in fact any law that a US entity wishes to impose on Australian citizens) is "We swallow"

      --
      This post patent pending.
    2. Re:Microsoft flunks global test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      And THAT is why I love aussie girls.

  36. Silver lining by jonniesmokes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The thing I see good about this is as follows:

    1. We knew this was going to happen sooner or later.
    2. Its better it happens sooner, Linus was getting impatient with the FSF folks
    and rightly seeing them as paranoid. If it had been a year or so more, the kernel
    might've been forked with some GPL v3 and GPL v2... This forces the FOSS community
    to circle their wagons and get along.
    3. I welcome this challenge, because what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
    MS executives are doing it now to appear like they're working hard because the
    great Redmond machine is running out of steam and they need to keep that stock
    price propped up for a few more years while they sell:

    When was the last time you saw an insider trade of 'buy' MSFT? They have a
    good margin and great revenue, but so did Kodak and Palaroid just a short while back.

    Ideas can last forever, companies don't.

    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

  37. Re:Begun, the troll wars have by eric76 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My pet conjecture is that they are in the process of setting themselves up to switch to something completely different for their next OS.

    I don't believe it will be Linux. It is more likely they will fork their own copy of one of the BSD's, probably FreeBSD, and then port all their own proprietary stuff on top of that.

    In other words, once again, Apple will show them the way.

  38. What if destroying Linux weren't the goal? by Myria · · Score: 4, Interesting

    (This is completely bogus, but is an interesting thought experiment.)

    What if Microsoft's direct goal were not harming Linux, but rather destroying the software patent system? Obviously, Microsoft would love for Linux to disappear, but they could be thinking much deeper. Microsoft has argued for patent reform before when they lost $521000000 to Eolas. Clearly appeal to Congress and the courts has not worked.

    By creating complete chaos in the software industry, these legal threats could force changes to the laws to avoid a breakdown.

    --
    "Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
  39. Re: U-235. by VagaStorm · · Score: 4, Funny

    LAMO, that is not just in Soviet Russia!

  40. Screensaver : patent could be circumvented. by DrYak · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It would be very difficult to create an alternative to an established idea such as this.

    This is true. Some of these patents will be valid (under US law)


    If such a trivial patent is valid, then the US patent system is realy b0rked.
    But even, in such a case, the patent can be circumvented.

    See, given the era when screensavers started to appear (i.e.: when CRT was the main method of displaying image for computers), so there a very high chance that such a patent will be formulated as the GP poster said : method in which the display shows random or non-random patterns in order to avoid screen burn-in.

    See, the main point is that, as pointed-out by the Wikipedia, nowadays screensavers are primarily used for entertainment or security purposes, because LCD panels are a lot less susceptible to burn-ins than CRTs.

    So the whole idea is to do exactly the same result, using slightly differently stated method. Call it a "screen protector". Define it as a piece of software that :
    - Monitors user (in)activity.
    - After a given time, turns the LCD panel of for power saving
    - After a given time, switches from the user desktop to a different environment for security reasons (protect both the access to the desktop and the data displayed on the desktop from undesired intruders/eavesdroper)
    - Switching back from protected mode to desktop mode requires that the user enters his log-in credential again.
    - Password prompt conditions may be optionnal : one may decide to use auto-logon and only protect data visually (can't eavesdrop through window, but anyone could unlock)
    - The protected mode may be just blank screen. As an added bonus, the protected mode may also display some sort of audio-visual entertainment.

    It does exactly the same thing, but it is defined as a different product.
    It's not just a flying toaster on the screen to avoid burnins,
    it's a "screen protector" with "power saving and protection of privacy, with audio-visual entertainment option activated".

    It's the same way the Arithmetic coding can be circumvented by substituing it with the closely related Range encoding.
    Or substituing the patented Marching cubes algorithme for producing a surface from a volume, with the simplier but functionnaly equivalent patent-free Marching tetrahedron.

    The only limitation is for a couple of things where, to achieve it's goal (interoperability with formats or network communication between microsoft and linux softwares), the software has to follow one specific implementation (ffmpeg may infringe on some of microsoft patent on VC-1 video) but the implementation can't be changed because compatibility will be lost (using alternative non-patented algorithms for video compression/decompression will result in incompatible data).
    That hapened during the GIF and MP3 patent controversies. (Although in GIF's case the patent could be circumvented to produce legal GIF although not compressed).
    But in the specific case of those 235 patents, some juridiction - mostly EU - will back the open source community as patents are used in ways to explicitely stop interoperation from concurrence. (See what happened with Samba)

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  41. GPLv3 by BACbKA · · Score: 4, Insightful

    RMS has proven himself a visionary once more where some thought he was going too far. The whole GPLv3 thing might seem a bit paranoid in the beginning, not just for Linus, with all this talk about forking off a lot of commercially-backed development --- people took SCO's failure as a governing example and thought that other big players would abide by the status quo, with the patent stockpiling by both sides to be an assurance of mutual peace... Following this new development, however, GPLv3 WILL mature and get adopted much quicker and on a larger scale. You're right on the money saying that now the forks will not likely happen.

    --

    VKh

  42. Re:McCarthy underestimated the number by gig · · Score: 4, Interesting

    > Ironically, McCarthy underestimated the number of Communists working in the state department - the 'true' number
    > derived from Venona intercepts was even higher.

    That is completely irrelevant. McCarthy pulled his number out of his ass. In fact, he pulled it out of his ass a few times and it was a different number each time.

    Then he named names, which he also pulled out of his ass.

    I can tell you for certain that there are murderers and rapists living in your city, out on the loose. I don't even need to know what city you live in. There are murderers and rapists loose in every city. However if I say there are 122 murderers loose in Philadelphia and I don't have a list of names and I start picking people randomly out of the Philly phone book then it really doesn't matter if later down the line a study finds that there are actually 375 murders loose in Philadelphia. McCarthy was not at all involved in the actual enumeration of communists in the US gov't. He was completely and totally involved in his own self-aggrandization.

    > A few years later a Senator from Massachusetts (initials were JFK) claimed that the Soviet Union had close to 200 missiles
    > ready to launch against the US - the truth was that the Soviets had 6 ICBM's ready by mid-1960. So maybe it is safe to say
    > that Microsoft is to software what Kennedy was to politics?

    Also irrelevant. That is not at all what Kennedy is remembered for, while McCarthy is CHIEFLY remembered for pulling a "number of communists" out of his ass and then witch-hunting around all the while refusing to provide any documentation to back up his claims. McCarthy is not the only political figure ever to exaggerate or be wrong ... he is famous for making it up as he went along and for getting very publicly caught at it.

    If Ballmer can't back up his number of patent claims with actual documentation of same then the original analogy of McCarthy and Ballmer is apt and valid. If Ballmer says "238 patent infringements" and then he can't give you a 238 page memo to go with that then he will have "pulled a McCarthy."

    If somebody shoots Ballmer in the back of the head over this, then he will have "pulled a Kennedy."

  43. Re:McCarthy underestimated the number by squiggleslash · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think you're trying to score political points rather than objectively analyze the situation both in the 1950s and today.

    Here's the reality. Balmer is probably correct. He may well have pulled the figure out of his ass, but the likelihood is that free software probably contains technologies covered by hundreds, if not thousands, of Microsoft patents. This is not because free software is doing anything wrong, it's simply the reality of programming computers in 2007, and the nature of patents. Patents are routinely granted that, to people in the field, are obvious, or are covering techniques that are inevitably going to be re-invented multiple times by independent entities. The reality of getting a patent these days is that you don't need to be farsighted and smart when it comes to finding the solution to a problem, you just have to be farsighted and smart in identifying the types of problem people will need to solve.

    Did it really matter how many "communists" were in the State department? If McCarthy had been attacking the government for its employment of soviet agents, then there may have been some moral legitimacy in his complaint (notwithstanding the fact that he almost certainly made up his figures and made up his list.) But the mere ideological viewpoints, protected by the First Amendment, of the people doing their jobs in the government, loyally to the US, is immaterial and that's what McCarthy concentrated upon. It was a "problem" in the 1950s because people genuinely were paranoid enough to conflate the two and legal and extra-legal hot-water was entered by anyone who had been unfortunate enough to believe there was a serious problem with Capitalism ten years before and had joined one of the groups that said this.

    Today legal problems enter the fray for any programmer who encounters a problem that Microsoft, or some other group, has encountered before they did and deemed solutions patent-worthy, and who chooses the most obvious solution to that problem. That's the reality of patents. And most people have problems understanding the concepts, that patent infringement is not copying, that patents themselves are increasingly immoral, unjustified, and unsustainable in a society that requires constant progress.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  44. Well ... perhaps in part. by golodh · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Now that I've caught my breath and read your response, and that of PJ on Groklaw (see http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200705132 34519615) I think you may have a point. At least as far as the "corporate" Linux distributions go.

    Now ... all Microsoft needs to do (and is doing) is to demand license fees for the use of their patents. This won't affect Linux'es availability for anyone who's willing to pay for a license. How much opposition do you think this will engender in corporate America? How outworldish is it to try to monetise your patents? I have this sinking feeling that most of the industry will shrug it off with "Well ... we knew they're bastards, but that's why they make such a lot of money.", and simply make sure that their Linux distributions are covered by patent license agreements.

    Google
    Will Google suddenly litigate 150-odd patents (they won't be using the gui or Open Office, just the kernel), or will it consent to pay, say 15$ a copy in licensing fees? Eh? What would you advise Google's CEO if you were in charge of Legal Affairs?

    Novell
    Novell has signed this patent-agreement, so wouldn't automatically be required to oppose Microsoft when MS asserts its patents. And what about Red-Hat? Will they charge the windmills?

    IBM
    And IBM? Will they even be a party in the initial legal battles? I mean ... will Microsoft see it as a winning strategy to get into a court battle with IBM about anything they can sue other much smaller companies for first? I'd be surprised.

    SUN
    And yes, SUN will not take allegations that it's Open Office infringes on Microsoft's patents lying down. But will it take up the cudgels to protect the Linux kernel when it's trying to make a go of Open Solaris? Really?

    The little guys
    Although I will readily admit that "corporate" use of Linux has helped it along enormously, there are still the "purist" and "hobbyist" distributions. I'm guessing that there are hundreds of small specialised tweaked Linux distributions (ranging from Knoppix to firewalls) brought out by individuals and tiny little companies. That's where Linux shines. And that's where you see the oddball experiments and many of the interesting new developments.

    So what are those small guys going to do when they receive a pay-license-fees-or-cease-and-desist nastygram? Their entire assets might just be enough to have a lawyer read the letter and explain to them what it means. My guess is that they will be unable to defend themselves and will quickly fold and withdraw their distros. That alone would be a blow.

    The Kernel repositories
    And then the Kernel repositories. What are the chances that those will have to take down the infringing portions of their code, if asked? Of course I can't say how likely this might be, as I'm not a lawyer. But Denis Crouch is and his response here ( http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/2007/05/microsoft_ foss_.html) doesn't completely reassure me that Microsoft won't get anywhere.

    What does Microsoft have to loose really?
    And about other companies giving Micorsoft a hard time ... who likes buying Microsoft? A show of hands please! ... And now, who of you buy Microsoft because it happens to come with the hardware, and it works after a fashion, and you're locked-in anyway?

    Really ... what does Microsoft have to loose from some bad publicity when trying to collect licenses on their patents? Somehow I can't even imagine that it would spark off an anti-trust suit, because all the "corporate" Linux distros aren't affected. Microsoft isn't (formally) trying to siderail an opponent, it's trying to get money for patents they own. Well yes, it's lethal to free-as

  45. Nothing to see here by TekPolitik · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...(Microsoft SVP and general counsel) Smith was having Microsoft's lawyers figure out how many of its patents were being infringed by free and open-source software. Gutierrez refuses to identify specific patents or explain how they're being infringed, lest FOSS advocates start filing challenges to them... But he does break down the total number allegedly violated - 235 - into categories. He says that the Linux kernel - the deepest layer of the free operating system, which interacts most directly with the computer hardware - violates 42 Microsoft patents. The Linux graphical user interfaces - essentially, the way design elements like menus and toolbars are set up - run afoul of another 65, he claims. The Open Office suite of programs, which is analogous to Microsoft Office, infringes 45 more. E-mail programs infringe 15, while other assorted FOSS programs allegedly transgress 68.

    Apparently Smith didn't pay much attention in his equity classes in law school (not surprising since most people find equity boring and difficult - I on the other hand topped my year so :-P to Smith). This behaviour is going to give rise to a proprietary estoppel against Microsoft, and he has now publicly stated the hardest things a defendant would have to prove to get the estoppel. This is just about rule #1 of equity - if you know somebody is violating your property rights, and you let them expend time, effort and resources building something in violation of those rights without them having knowledge of the breach of your rights, the courts will not let you enforce your rights against those people or anybody who claims through them.

    It would be a different matter if Microsoft had no knowledge of the breach, but having investigated it and found the breach, if they don't tell the projects affected what the alleged breach is in fairly short order, they are not going to be able to enforce their rights at all.

    Even if he did not pay a lot of attention in his equity classes it seems unlikely Smith would not have some awareness of this. This suggests to me that Microsoft have no intention whatsoever of using the patents to pursue open source projects or even users who are building businesses based around open source products. If they did intend to do this, they would give specific notice. This leaves them with only intimidation as a strategy for exploiting their patents against open source.

    It is a shame we have no examples of another company that turned to using unspecified intellectual property violations as an intimidation strategy against open source. Such an example might give us an indication of the ultimate result.