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Driver's License to be the Next Debit Card
prostoalex writes "Your US driver's license has a magnetic stripe with unique ID in it, and your debit card carries a magnetic stripe with account information on it, so why not link the two together and allow people to use their driver's licenses as debit cards? That's precisely what a young company National Payment Card is doing in select locations, according to Business Week: 'Gas-station owners are pleased with the program too. Because NPC processes the payment as an e-check with the Automated Clearing House (ACH), a network most commonly used for direct deposits, participating retailers bypass credit card companies such as Visa and Mastercard.'"
...your account is frozen. Brilliant!
"It's a reverse vampire...they....they crave the sun!"
It's not for me, but I can see where some people would like this. One less card to carry around and potentially lose.
Well it wont work everywhere, here in Massachusetts the magnetic strip was replaced with a digital barcode a few years ago.
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
So now someone can steal my identity and my credit in one card?
I would like to be the first to say this is a really bad idea.
Get a web developer
A new meaning for identity theft...
"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"
Just what we need. More interconnected national databases...
...without this mess.
1. Give out name and address to complete strangers who work cash registers
2. Get identity stolen
3. Profit (for identity thieves).
Well, at least it fills in that elusive second step.
While we're at it, we might as well socialize the whole entire banking industry, so that all citizens have no choice but to use a government account for their banking services! BRILLIANT!!!
//End Sarcasm
This is an awesome idea!!!!1!one!OMGZponiez Oh wait, no it's not. This is almost as bad as the Real ID.
Geeks strike again 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
As of today, driver's licenses and ID cards are state-specific. Layout, extra features (barcode, magnetic strip), anti-forgery techniques, etc are all decided on a state-by-state basis. If you move to a different state, you need to get a new license from that state within a certain amount of time (usually it's within a few weeks of establishing permanent residence). In order to roll out a nation-wide license-as-debit card program, either states will have to standardize on specific extra features like a magentic strip and what information is stored there, or licensing will have to be handled by the federal government.
As a believer in states' rights, this looks like nothing more than an end-run around opposition to a national ID program. If they can get people hooked on using their license as a debit card, nobody will object when the fed steps in to take control of licensing to make it "more efficient".
I don't know anyone with a "US" driver's license. I have a Virginia driver's license. Hopefully it will stay that way.
One early morning, back in the early days of debit cards, I inserted what I thought was my debit card into the ATM. It asked for, and accepted my PIN, gave me account options, then, after a short delay, said that there was no such account and returned my card to me. As I pulled the card out, I realized that I had inserted my Driver's License into the machine, instead of the debit card. I had always thought that the two should work together, as it appears that such interaction had been pre-built into the ATM software, even back then.
Ever hear the phrase 'Lead me not into temptation?' What with all the people who rack up loads of debt on their credit cards, I wonder what something like this will do, when the key to free stuff now, and debt later, is right in your wallet at all times, and you have to carry it around.
How about no.
Shall we enumerate some of the problems?
Suspended/surrendered license = no money
Hacked debit card = hacked license
numerous swipes = worn card + license. I'd rather not deal with the DMV any more than absolutely required.
What is the benefit for me? Nada.
I refuse to use debit cards at all (as opposed to an ATM card or a credit card), because they draw directly from your account and they don't require an independent piece of verification (like a PIN) to use.
But this? This is even worse. At least a debit card can be cancelled in the event it's stolen, even though by then it may be too late. How are you going to cancel your driver's license when the DMV is only open Monday through Friday 8-5?
It's even worse if it makes use of the RFID chip that's embedded in some driver's licenses these days.
No way in hell will I ever opt in for something like this.
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
What's the difference? For most people that'd mean stealing your wallet - they'll get both pieces of information anyway.
This is exactly right.
Not quite sure why this is an issue.
In Illinois we've got a 3D barcode as well as a 2D barcode. No magstripe at all. Looks the the author didn't research his IDs.
OTOH, if the drivers license were to be linked to actual cash, then the drivers license might be the most valuable item to steal. And because a pin number is likely required, the person is not likely to be allowed to leave. Rather, the person will be taken hostage until the bank account is cleared, thus increasing the risk of serious injury and death.
The upshot of all this is that people who before might be considered not worth attacking, as they had no valuables, would now become a prime target as they might have a drivers license with them. It seems to me that this is just another case of the desire to integrate overcoming the common sense of safety.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
The key to successful reduction of identity theft is the ability for revokation NOT only by grantor (state) or clearinghouse (credit bureaus), but most importantly, the grantee (the end-users).
Without the end-user being able to revoke a stolen card, the whole system is worth squat, security-wise.
And none of that clear-text personalized info on the magstrip, thank you very much, NO!
If Gas stations were so into the idea of using ACH then why don't they just accept personal checks??
Because nobody likes bounced checks. That's why.
Sure, you have to deal with chargebacks, etc. But the credit networks provide resolution procedures, etc. for these things that are much better and efficient than those provided by ACH.
Gas stations should really be promoting pre-paid, private network cards so that they can bypass this altogether. What these guys should be providing is not an ACH transaction tied to a bank account, but a prepaid debit account that runs over their own network.
They would earn their money from float and processing fees charged to the account holder. Heck, they could charge a penny per gallon from the merchant and still make a good sum.
Michigan does not use privately assigned numbers for our drivers license numbers. Our drivers license numbers are calculated using a method that's not secret or random or anything.
_ mi
We use a system that combines soundex codes with date of birth. You can find anyones michigan driver's license number if you know:
First name, Middle Name, Last name, Month of Birth, year of birth.
If you're from michigan, get out your driver's license and see for yourself.
http://www.highprogrammer.com/cgi-bin/uniqueid/dl
There are only a few times where it might be a few numbers off. If you happen to share a first name middle name last name month of birth and year of birth, then the last 3 numbers will be off by 1. Besides that, this works really well.
This is great for catching fake ID's. None of the fake ID's bother to calculate the right number. Most bouncers who police doors are familiar enough with the codes to flag fakes quite easily.
Typical USian obeying the law. These bastards snuck into our country (a crime), steal an identity (a crime) to obtain services (crimes), and sit in the parking lots of Houston hospitals to go into labor more to cut in the ER line, after which the citizens of Texas are supposed to pay the bill. If an American citizen (regardless of color) went into that same hospital, the hospital will attempt to get as much money from that person as possible. I know someone who had the only $11 in their wallet taken to cover the bill later on.
You sir, are nothing more than a liberal idiot. Hitler would love to toss you in the gas chamber right now.
Captcha: borders -- HOW APPROPRIATE. Borders are legal boundaries that should be respected by law abiding citizens.
Makes more sense to allow you to drive on your credit card. ( I'd rather trust Visa's or AmEx's opinion of your reliability than the opinion of some govt bureaucrat ). :-)
And if it's overdrawn you shold only be allowed to drive to and from work.
...to go into serious, life crippling debt. We should be working on ways of getting out of debt, not ways to make consumerism even fucking worse than it is now. 50 years ago the average American was saving 10-30% of their income a year as savings. Today it's closer to 2%. To make matters worse banks are tossing out cards like a child molester does candy. Interest only loans are now normal. We're on the verge of a housing collapse because of all the shoddy loans to people over extended as it was.
What possible justification can there be for making it even easier to spend money you don't fucking have? I'm no socialist but I'll be god damned if capitalism means "spend till your ass bleeds"
EOM
--fatboy
I see where this is going: National ID, financial account ... next is it medical data stored on same card?
Heck, this card will be TOO important! What if it is lost! Why, I can't be identified, buy or sell, get health care... you'd better just tattoo the damn number on my arm and forehead.
No, thanks.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I ran a great big magnet over my drivers license a long time ago. The data on it is not legally required (though IANAL). The only purpose it serves is to give your personal data to shops that want to "check" your ID (and add to their database).
In soviet russia... drivers licence debits YOU!
If your credit card is stolen, you are only liable for the first $50 of fraudlent charges.
Debit cards give you NO such protection. If your debit card is stolen and used to drain your bank account, you have no recourse but to eat the losses.
Furthermore, since the credit card companies are responsible for managing fraud, they have incentives to use good security practices. Debit card info carriers take the position of "our system is secure, so it must have been your fault".
Many people have been surprised when their bank/ATM cards (which also function as debit cards) are stolen and used fraudulently to drain their account. This is why it's always a good idea to request that your bank issue you an ATM card which cannot be also used as a debit card.
Giving, in essence, everyone a default debit card is a bad idea. Fraud would become endemic.
I refuse to use debit cards at all (as opposed to an ATM card or a credit card), because they draw directly from your account and they don't require an independent piece of verification (like a PIN) to use.
Now that depends on the debit card, doesn't it?
There's nothing to prevent this company, or one like it, from requiring a PIN to transact business when you identify via driver's license.
At least a debit card can be cancelled in the event it's stolen, even though by then it may be too late. How are you going to cancel your driver's license when the DMV is only open Monday through Friday 8-5?
By calling the "card stolen" hotline of N.P.C. and telling them to disconnect your license from your bank account.
Your driver's license is just being used as a key to a database. It's another way to go from a piece of plastic in your pocket to your name and account number - after that it's E-checks on your account with the E-check processing company.
The only real issue I see with this (besides people reading personal data off the plastic) is if the state doesn't make some distinction in the data on the license between a lost/stolen one and the replacement. Without that, once you've had ONE license lost or stolen you can't turn such a service back on for your new driver's license without re-enabling it for the missing one. (Of course you can change the PIN - presuming a PIN is required to use the service.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I wonder how soon we will be getting the star of david bracelets? I bet the feds like the idea of being able to track EVERYBODY at any time. Oh, wait. That is the plan.
So when your license is suspended...your account is frozen. Brilliant!
Nope.
When your license is suspended it doesn't keep you from using it as ID. It just keeps you from driving legally.
All this system is doing is using your license as an ID to look up your account in the e-check processing service's database. This keeps on working until the service decides to stop accepting that particular license as ID. (Probably when it expires and/or is replaced with a new one.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Err... wouldn't that mean that you could pay a traffic fine immediately? Which translates to:
"Do you really want your state government having easy access to your bank account?"
"How fast will the state legislature pass a law requiring the immediate and direct payment of fines via the license/debit card?"
"A hold has been placed on your account for the amount of the fine. The hold will be removed if you are found innocent. Your court date is in 30 days."
I'd rather have my license forcefully taken from me by the authorities than have a damn ATM eat it when I'm drunk and enter the wrong pin enough times to piss it off.
You can't take the sky from me.
Hillary Clinton is that you?
Aside from the obvious increase in identity thefts risks, I realize that there is a person who thought this up, thinking that one 'all purpose card' would be cool.
I don't think debit cards and driver's licenses should be combined simply because you usually don't carry that many of such cards anyway. What most of us hate is - this problem is applied to women in particular - all the shopping cards people collect. These are the cards that need to be combined into one configurable card, so that people can have only three useful cards. One for shopping discounts, one driver's license and one debit card. But combining them is kind of pointless.
Also, other side effects include situations like not being able to give your husband/wife/daughter/son/xyz your debit card to use at the ATM machine, simply because it is too risky to lend someone a driver's license AND a debit card.
Full Tilt
Save money.
I'm pretty sure, while this used to be the case with more generic debit cards, todays modern Visa and Mastercard debit cards are treated just like credit cards as far as fraud and you can't loose your whole bank account in this manner.
Lets make our drivers licences Debit Cards
Hey lets make our drivers licences national ID Cards
Hey lets make everyone in the World have ID cards that can be used as money which makes a world currency
Hey we're too lazy to carry cards anymore, lets have a microchip imbedded in everyone.
God spoke to me.
This is far beyond any 1984 insanity.
Am I the only one that see's this as a way for Big Brother to have absolute, total power over your buying/spending abilities? The people that worried about bar codes and now RFID are probably shitty fuzzy spiders over this concept.
I'll refuse to accept this bullshit concept, period.
Cash is King.
A person certainly can use their debit cards online, I have.
FalconShould there be a Law?
(Some context: I founded a company that made credit card processing software for Linux (among others) more than ten years ago. My knowledge on the matter might be stale (as of about 2002), but as far as I know nothing about this has changed much.)
This is very bad.
When you use a credit card, you get fantastic levels of consumer protection. By law, you're liable for at most $50 of bad transactions on your credit card, and most of the major payment backbones (Visa, Mastercard, etc) have reduced that to $0 liability over the Internet. There's no burden to reporting the charges as bad - you report the charges and go on with your life and you get a bright shiny new card in the mail in a few days.
On the ACH network, it's very different - it's like you're writing checks (the ACH network is used to settle checks). In other words, you're limited to the laws protecting you from bad checks, which puts the burden on you to prove that the charges did not come from you. Recovery of the money can be a nightmare, which can only be mitigated by the policies of your bank. The law offers you very little protection. Some banks are very good about this, others won't lift a finger to help you unless it's required by law.
Debit cards are bad, but at least their widespread use have made banks familiar with the issues. This is much, much worse.
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
So when an officer stops you for speeding, does handing them your license constitute offering a bribe??
Mastercard or Visa.
I don't know about Mastercards but with VISA cards Visa doesn't require id checks for purchases under $25, or is it $50, but they do require it over this.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I process cards for customers every day that have 'ask for id' in big letters on them. It is the card owner's way of making it harder for a thief to use his card.
My card says "check id", however even when sales clerks look at it, which is rare, they rarely ever ask. I rarely even had my id checked when I wrote checks. And the thing is is where I used to live, even those who knew you still checked your id.
FalconShould there be a Law?
The university that I attended issued student IDs that were usable as ATM cards with a bank that the school had set up to do that with. It worked fine but that was with just one bank that they had worked out some deal with. Its probably more difficult to work it out for multiple banks and allowing fair and equal access to all banks.
And in America we find this creepy.
If someone says "papers, please," I expect them to have a badge, a gun, and probable cause.
I live in the US and it bothers me when I am not asked for my id when I use my credit card or write a check. While I don't like having to show id when I'm out somewhere but not buying something and using a credit card or check, I hate the thought someone can mess up my credit. Someone could steal my card, or could apply for credit using my name and screw my credit reports.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Debit cards suck. If there's a fraudulent or otherwise disputed transaction, the other party has your money. Getting it back is a major pain in the ass. My friends have had issues where it's taken them months to get something resolved and, in the mean time (it bears repeating), they have your money. Credit cards companies are generally much easier to deal with - the money is still in your pocket, so the burden is on the merchant to prove the transaction is valid. If (like me) you want to avoid credit card debt, use American Express charge cards (green, gold, platinum, or black). These basically work kind of like a net-30 account for your purchases. AmEx has always been great to me when there's a problem with a charge.
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
I agree with you that this is a problem, however, I don't think that making someone pull out a drivers license is really the solution.
Drivers licenses aren't that hard to fake, particularly when you only need to get it past a store clerk who isn't really trained to inspect them and probably doesn't care that much anyway. (When's the last time you've ever had your signature questioned? There's a page around where a guy signed CC slips with increasingly ridiculous things, and never got stopped.) Add in a lot of financial incentive for crooks to make up fake DLs, and they'll be turning them out by the bushel-basket. All you'd be doing is creating an arms race between thousands of people with a lot of time on their hands (the forgers), and the government, which is big, slow, and inefficient. Who do you think is going to win? (Ask the AACS -- it's basically the same problem, just in a different medium.)
The solution is to force the credit card companies to accept responsibility for bad charges, and keep them from forcing it down on the merchants, so that they have some interest in promoting well-designed, secure systems. A system more like that used in many European countries -- where you swipe your card and then enter a PIN -- would be a big step forward. No, it's not perfect; someone could still hold you up at gun/knifepoint and demand your cards and your PINs, but it does stop a lot of passive theft and snooping of the card number. Smartcards (where the card holds the CC number and only releases it in encrypted form), preferably with a built-in PIN-pad or biometric reader (so that the merchant terminal couldn't snoop on you) would be another big step. But you can't -- just absolutely can't -- have a system that lets you just swipe a piece of plastic (or not even that, with the RFID ones) and walk away, without any verification at all, and also have security against fraud and theft. The public doesn't want to hear that.
Many people far smarter than I have thought about how to make financial transactions secure, and in some cases do it without even breaching anonymity! It's all quite possible, but the banks and CC processors have absolutely no interest in it right now, and people by and large are pretty apathetic. But if we wanted to bring some security to the credit card system, the tools are out there -- just adding a drivers-license swipe to an already broken current system would just be polishing a turd, and giving people a false sense of security (not to mention risking other personal information that they rightly may wish to keep private from the merchant).
I totally hear where you're coming from -- someone in my family lost a few hundred bucks (a non-trivial amount to them, a college student) last year due to fraud, and they're still working on getting it all back. But frankly I think it's better to do nothing, than to take ineffective half-measures. When the public is ready for real security in financial transactions, lots of smart people will be there to show them the way. The public's not there yet.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
One problem I see with this already is that I have multiple accounts at multiple banks. Yes, there is one account that I can claim as my "primary," since may pay check is deposited there, but I don't want that associated with my driver's license.
I can see trying to decrease the number of cards in your wallet as good for individuals*, and bypassing Visa and MasterCard's fees** good for businesses, but is this really a good idea for the average consumer, already prone to identity theft?
Since the focus of this article is on gas stations, I would rather see gas stations go back to the two different prices for cash and credit. I'm usually not in so much of a hurry that I can't take a minute or two out of my day to walk into the gas station to talk to another human being (IRL, LOL) while paying for my gas (with cash). Heck, I might even pick up a drink or snack.
* Do you really need to carry all of your cards all the time? I don't.
** Carry cash! Accepted more places than Visa!
Ramen
The vast majority of brick & mortar customers are local residents, so they could easily reach a critical mass before needing to worry about reading out-of-state licenses.
...I don't have a driver's license. Wait, maybe that's not a good thing.
What sound do people on rollercoasters make? Hint: it's not Xbox 360.
I wouldn't worry about credit cards when worrying about identity theft. What's much more difficult to track is loan applications made in your name,
You wouldn't worry about credit cards when it comes to id theft? Hell, it's easy and getting easier to get a credit card in someone else's name. And when they do, you don't get a bill from the credit card issuer unless whoever got it used your address. However it can and will come back to haunt you.
What's much more difficult to track is loan applications made in your name, because you have to actively retrieve (and usually pay for) your credit report. It's not mailed to you on a monthly basis.
Unless an id thief gets credit cards in your name.
How many cards are you carrying around, anyway? If you have more than two or three, you've got a problem with credit. What you need:
Not neccessarily. Your FICO Score, which partially determines your credit worthiness is in part determined by what your total credit limit and what your balance is, the more credit cards you have the higher your credit limit is.
You may think you need to because of credit limits, but you're better off using a single card with a higher limit (fewer rotating credit accounts allows for a higher limit on the ones you really need).
AH I see you brought up credit limits yourself. However just because you only have one or two credit cards instead a bunch it does not mean your credit limit will be the same, it's possible it will be lower with only two cards than with 4. What matters more is how much balance you keep and how much you pay monthly, do you only pay minimum, do you pay more than that, or do you pay in full every month.
Admittedly I don't know everything about it but I know some and I'm learning more from my brother-in-law who is a Certified Financial Planner, CFP.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Thanks for pointing this out. I'm so sick of being asked for ID when I use my credit card. BTW, here's a PDF of the merchant rules - page 29 also mentions the "See ID" nonsense.
Remember: if you try to buy something with your Visa, but they won't let you because you won't show your ID, you can file a complaint against the merchant by calling (800) VISA-911. So far I've never had to make the call, just had to threaten it.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
Sounds like this is a novel way to combine the crime of identity theft with the crime of robbery and make it portable and convenient too.
And thank God we've solved that problem with counterfeiting. God knows, making money and identification a single uniform item across the entire country will help with that.
Yikes. All your eggs are belong to us.
--
Toro
As far as I can tell, there's little security on the system that handles ACH payments. If someone can get a payment request into the system, it's assumed to be valid by the bank that receives it. There is no PIN or image of a paper check that could be used to check the authenticity of the payment request.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I would much rather have my cell phone be my:
RFID Entry key (With an actual battery it can be truly secure)
Debit/Credit Card (Same deal, different implementation)
Driver's Liscence/ID
Etc. Etc. Etc...
I should have to type in a PIN or something to spend money. You can already deactivate phone immediately if they are lost or stolen, so that's not really an issue. I'm sure this is the way things are headed.
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
The University of Minnesota already does this with their student ID cards. Not quite the same, but I still don't like it, as it makes the ID itself less useful. Policies then restrict what can be done with the card, and you end up having special cards for other functions (like, say, checking out a music practice room key card) because no one is allowed to keep the student ID because it's an ATM card. So, it really doesn't even result in fewer cards.
How about just leaving things as they are? I don't want to have to walk all the way to the bank when my license gets taken away and there's no way in hell I'd let a bank out of all places be able to revoke my driving privileges. Let's all just get bigger wallets with more card slots instead of looking to assimilate one into another.
I just read Slashdot for the articles.
Lets see. People have multiple bank accounts with multiple bank companies... and only one Drivers License. Yeah, why not merge them all together!!!
Whats that, you want proof that this is my banking card, why turn it around my good friend, yeah thats my face... the one held on with celotape.
so next time you get pulled over for speeding. Do they just swipe your card? No ticket to write , no traffic court.
Authentication and Authorisation methods based on "something you have" can be fooled by stealing or replicating that "something".
MAybe a better approach is "something you know" as seen in almost all debit card systems or, even better, "something you are".
That is never-written passwords or biometrics.
Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
Why not get read of those magnetic stripes which provide absolutely no security and can be cloned in a fraction of second?
Why not use a smart card instead for payment with a secure PIN... so whenever your card is stolen you're not frightened of what would happen to your account.
That'd make a lot more sense that putting moving the strip of your credit card onto your ID.
This idea is old, and it is not done through magnetic cards, It is done through Chip Cards (similar to SIM cards) which has been around for a small number of years. Except that businesses have not put it into use yet. Maybe they are waiting for the market to mature.
You can have your personal info, credit card, debit card, another credit card, driver's lisence, etc. on one card. It is much more secure than a magnetic card, but if you loose it, you will loose all info on it.
The only thing that really remains is to find a way to implant it in the human body.
Maybe we will see that i next 10 years.
In this field no matter how much you know, You still don't know anything.
'Gas-station owners are pleased with the program too. Because NPC processes the payment as an e-check with the Automated Clearing House (ACH), a network most commonly used for direct deposits, participating retailers bypass credit card companies such as Visa and Mastercard.'
I'm not quite sure I get this. I live in Canada, and my debit card is a completly different entity than my credit card. My debit card takes money right from my bank account, and I have to enter my pin number to use said monies. My credit card uses money that isn't technically mine, all I have to do is sign that little piece of paper. I can use my debit card at places that don't accept any credit cards what-so-ever ( the reverse is a rare case. I've certainly never come across such a place ). I've been told by people I know that in the US, a credit card is also someone's debit card. Which confuses me, because my debit card doesn't work in the US.
This could possibly be cleared up with a quick trip through google and/or wikipedia, but it's currently 2:40am in the morning, and I'm also lazy.
God is dead -- Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -- God
Zombie Nietzsche lives! -- Zombie Nietzsche
Just because something is convienent doesn't make it a good idea.
r -everything.html
Trivial security demands that authentication be separate from authorization.
Using the ID as a bank card or a house key, or a car key or a trowel doesn't make sense.
Just carry cash instead of these other items. That's even more convienent, right?
http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/pay-cash-fo
3 words. stupid, stupid, stupid.
RFID has privacy issues. The smart cards with contacts have to be held just right to work -- swiping a magstripe is actually probably faster. I like the secure PIN idea.
-b.
Yep, definitely marks the 'end times' for those that read Revelations and believe it. Sorry, but I just don't need a bar code tattooed on my forehead/neck/butt or any other location just yet. Tag me when I'm dead and gone, otherwise just please please please leave this body alone.
Sorry. We're not trying to keep people IN
The United States: Most immigrated to (legally or illegally) country in the world.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I live in Massachusetts and just renewed my license, there's no magnetic strip on it. There's something that looks, not like a bar code, but something like one. But no magnetic strip.
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
I don't have a US driver's license, I have a Virginia State Driver's License...
No, I'm not being a smart ass. Less Federal Government.
However, the summary did seem like pretty silly phrasing. And on a hard, more technical issue with the subject matter, at least my state does not put magnetic stripes of any sort on the drivers license. When they did implement a machine-readable aspect to licenses in the last decade, they chose a 2D barcode instead of magnetic info. So the statement is not true for the set of licenses that come closest to being described as 'US drivers license'.
Go to the actual website of the company discussed, and you'll note they can only work in less than half the states.
To provide back up from your perspective, from the article and summary, it is clear this is done without coordination with the government at all, merely asking consumers to input the data so the data from readers spit out from happening to swipe a license can be correlated. In fact, the article mentions government officials telling people to be careful with this sort of thing.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Will they include a cell phone in the next driver's license. Built in mp3 player? Install Vista on the magnetic stripe? Camera on the state seal so big brother can check up on us? Why stop there, go ahead and put an alcohol and drug test biometric sensor on the damn thing. Who cares if the lithium battery inside the driver's license blows up or needs to be replaced?
Why not keep the purpose of a license and stop adding things that can go wrong to it. Why do we love to make simple things so complicated and full of flaws?
Just playing devil's advocate, but unless you're with CitiBank I doubt your credit card / debit card has your photo on it, while your driver's license likely does.
And you can't steal someone's identity with their driver's license. It is one of the more difficult things to get a copy of when stealing someone's identity, because the photo is intrinsically tied to it. You can't go into the DMV and get someone else's license reprinted, no matter how much other supporting docs you have, because if the photo doesn't match you're SOL - unless you can convince them you got plastic surgery or some other nonsense.
Why not fuse RealID, RFID, Bluetooth and Wireless capability ont it? AT&T could then supply Cellular service for it. You could talk on the phone, while a cop is writing you a ticket remotely, while the RIAA is emailing you a subpoena for transferring mp3s to the car in front of you, all of it being recorded by Experian for data-mining purposes under the guise of the Patriot Act. It's perfect.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
Your US driver's license has a magnetic stripe with unique ID in it
Not in Illinois. There is no stripe. I haven't read TFA, since it's obviously bullshit. Apparently it ignores the backlash against the "real ID act".
And as I'm sure someone else has already pointed out (no I didn't read the comments either- what, do you think I'm new here?), when you get a ticket in Illinois they take your license as bond and you drive on the ticket itself.
What dumbass came up with this stupid idea anyway? He should be fired - out of a cannon.
-mcgrew
(mind-reading capcha is fitting; "dunces")
People are up in arms about the databases being merged and whatnot.. but I've often heard of banks being able to use the stripe of any card as is in order to identify your account. The hash of the card is like the database key it looks up and pulls up the accounts tied to the card. I've seen people around here use other cards in the ATM (student ID's for one). I don't think that using your drivers license necessarily means altering any of the information on the card (having the DMV need to know your unique identifier at your bank (they don't have account numbers on the ATM cards ever anyway).. The bank swipes your card once and the hash is setup as the primary key in a db table that says what accounts that card can access. This most likely isn't the big brother thing people think.
WRONG.
I work at a financial institution. Debit Mastercard holders have ZERO LIABILITY. If there is fraud, the financial institution can charge it back to the merchants, what they refuse, the FI eats. Quit spreading FUD.
Really, its not that much trouble to carry an ID _and_ bank card. Seriously, what is wrong with cash and why cannot people use it? A bank card is still just spending your available cash. I especially enjoy pissing off clerks with the Dollar Coins. I'm had several roll their eyes and mumble something indistinct when handed Sacagawea coins. I had one guy actually complain "no one every wants these fucking things".
That's funny. How many people actually type their drivers license into an online demo like that? I'd try it if they provided a description of the algorithm and some simple source code.
Visa and Mastercard control about 80 percent of the credit card industry. This would be great for retailers and gas station owners who get socked with ridiculous interchange fees when consumers use the credit option instead of debit. I'm working with the Merchants Payment Coalition and this is an example of a great move toward increased competition in the credit card industry. More information is available at http://www.unfaircreditcardfees.com./
The smart card have contacts that work just right when you put the card in a slot.. I mean I never experienced any problem with it in France or Germany. On the other hand in the US, I had my credit card strip demagnitized or damaged somehow a few times.
Swiping is always faster because you dont have to dial your pin, wait for the terminal to connect to a bank and check that your card works etc... But it does not mean it takes ages. It's more like a completely insecure 2secs process compared to a reaonsably secure one which takes 30sec. I'd rather choose the secure system. It's also more secure for the store.
I want all PC's and laptops to come bundled with a mag stripe reader - one that will also work with smart cards. This should at least be a standard available option. It would add another important level of security to our computing infrastructure. It would also help remove e-commerce from the dominion of expensive proprietary vendors.
Right hand? Who's foolish here?
:p
Get it right - it's the forehead. And it's the mark of the beast!
disclaimer: the above was for recreational purposes only and in no way reflects the views or values or beliefs of the author
Then bars could actually prove that you're 21! They could require a signature and only charge your driver's license. If it's fake, you get screwed. If it's someone else's, you go to jail for fraud!
Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
They'll need to tear my grandfathered green Vermont license from my dead clenched fists. It has no barcode, no mag stripe, no photo and an eight digit ID number. http://www.symetrix.net/gallery/albums/BarBook/58_ 59.jpg I love the face on PFY rental car agents who stare at it in disbelief, then stammer something about, "something with a photo?"
They still do but now give you the option of using a unique number. Can you image that? Your SSN printed right on your drivers license and your associated to it at the state level.
PS OP is the worst idea since that jackass drove through the brand new [big dig] tunnel with an overloaded truck full of bananas.
Swiping can be combined with a PIN. And, AFAIK, if you swipe a card, it still takes the numbers and verifies them with the bank before approving (you can even hear it dialling in some cases). We're not talking about the old machines that just take a stamped imprint of the card here, though I've still seen those in use in a few places recently!
-b.
The legal protections on your checking account are significantly weaker than the legal protections on your credit card. The amount of headaches a lost/stolen/counterfeited card could cause you are much much worse on the ACH system than with Visa/MC. This would be great for merchants - so you shouldn't use it, you're the customer, and it's bad for you.
is competition good, or is duplication of effort bad?
I don't even like debit cards. I like using a credit card as a buffer between (unknown) vendors and my bank account -- plus I get float (you don't HAVE to carry a balance on a credit card). My bank keeps pushing me to get a debit card, and I keep telling them that if they force it on me, I'm taking my money somewhere else.
Oh, well. I suppose a little sandpaper to the magnetic strip will do a good job of dedebitcardifying my REAL ID compliant license....
Pick One: http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~stremler/sigs/sigs.html (Note - disable Javascript first!)
I agree with you. This is a very bad idea. The next logical steps in this direction are toward a national ID card linked to your ability to buy things. From a tracking and marketing perspective, you are what you buy. If one goes down this road, we can then expect cash to be phased out completely.
One can only assume at that point that the next step will then be that your eligibility to vote will be determined by your credit score, which will itself be determined by the size of your political contribution. No doubt Karl Rove's ultimate wet dream.
That's my point... the PIN on the magnetic stripe is snakeoil security. The bottom line is that you do NOT need the PIN to use the card.
I was living in SC up to 2005 and I never ever ever used a PIN except in an ATM.
So the fact that it calls the bank may make the store safer, but it defintively does not change anything for the user. Whoever checks those signed tickets anyway? Anyone can use YOUR card....
The bottom line is. Steal a credit card that is not visa or mastercard compatible in France or Germany (Smart card) and you have no choice than to throw it away. It's totally useless. Of course some vulnerabilities were discovered in the past but they were promptly patched up... Do the same thing with a vanila american VISA or Mastercard and you can put the credit of the legitimate user in jeopardy if he/she does not realize it soon enough.
And final argument. YOU CANNOT CLONE A SMART CARD. Or at least not as easily as a magnetic stripe and no one bothered... Cloning is the worst thing that can happen. On the French riviera where i used to live, the Italian mafia was hijacking ATMs to add a device which was cloning cards inserted into ATMs by tourist. Basically you do not realize that something is wrong unless you check your credit daily or get your card refused somewhere because your credit limit is reached.
I always make it a point to erase that stupid mag stripe. I'm not gonna make a cop's job any easier.
just remember, the no fly list is also (legally) a no work list and a no buy list. the law is already on the books that all transactions must be checked against this list before being allowed.
at present, it is only applied to big cash transactions, but it could easily be everywhere.
sorry sir, you can't buy food, you are on the no buy list, next!
works very nicely with your national ID.
it's all part of the same system, just another brick in the wall, as it were.
-.no
And yes, debit cards combine the worst aspects of checks with the worst aspects of credit cards.
The worst aspect of checks is they take forever to fill out and the payment information isn't captured digitally. The worst aspect of credit cards is you have to track your checking account balance to make sure you have enough money in the payment account on the day the balance is due to be paid.
Debit cards eliminate these two hassles, but have a bad dispute system.
As usual, it's an engineering problem with no right answer divorced from a set of requirements.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The whole point of an id in transactions is to prevent fraud. If the debit and ID are one, then you have essentially eliminated the ID.
Convenience and technology usually lead to greater and riskier problems. Just look at electronic voting.
NPC's method of conducting transactions is basically the same as PayPal's - they do the relatively difficult task of gathering a valid ACH routing number and account number once, then tie this information to some other form of identification (in PayPal's case, your email address and password; in NPC's case, your license number and PIN) so that transactions can be processed on the relatively inexpensive ACH network rather than the relatively expensive VISA/MC/Amex/Discover network.
The advantages to the merchant are (1) reduced transaction fees, and (2) reduced exposure to liability for stolen cards and other fraud. If someone steals your Visa card information and uses it to buy a bunch of stuff at a retailer, that retailer is left holding the bag when you dispute the transactions; the retailer has basically no recourse. If someone steals your checkbook or ACH information, the playing field is much more level. In the case of NPC, they are willing to eat all but $50 of any fraudulent charges that occur. This will make retailers happy.
From these two examples, PayPal and NPC, we can see how a number of new payment systems could work: You just get the customer's ACH info, tie it to some form of ID (retina, RFID, celphone, fingerprint, voiceprint, barcode tattoo, Number of the Beast, or whatever) and start raking in 1% of sales (which is preferable to the 3% merchants have to pay now for credit card services.) Note that PayPal charges 3% for their services, which they are able to get away with due to their status as an EBay property, and the ease of setting up a "merchant account." More and more companies are going to start moving into this market, just because the business model is so obvious. There has long been a pent-up demand for an alternative to the aging and clunky credit card system, and this might just be the crack in the dike that leads to a revolution in payment systems.
My truck is like a series of tubes.
When I got my license (a long time ago) it came with a bunch of available points. When I wanted to use a higher speed limit I spent some points. If I didn't need the higher speed limit for a while the points were added back. If I used up all my points I wasn't allowed to drive anymore. This is just a logical extension :)
I haven't rad every response, but one reason I can see them wanting this is to be able to issue tickets/fines on the spot.
"You were speeding... That'll be $80. Have a nice day..."
I can see many police departments salivating over this.
This company is doing part of what I proposed ANSI submit a standard to allow: http://taoist.wordpress.com/2007/02/14/a-better-wa y/
Abstract IDs to the point where you can use one card for every single ID you need -- including credit and debit cards.
Despite the paranoia of many of the posters above, if you made it a commercial standard you could guarantee the security for everyone, including the companies and the ID holders, at a much higher level than we have currently.
Unfortunately my proposal has been tabled indefinitely.
Currently, our Authorities (DMV included) has to get a supena to obtain our bank records and other personal information not in the DMV or police databases. If we make our licenses same as Debit card, then we will hand this information over to the DMV or police, and at anytime they can get it.
Very very BAD Idea... whoever thought of this must be totally NUTZ.
I've been pulled over a couple of times (random license checks at roadblocks,) and I didn't have my license on me. I told the officer I was licensed to drive, rattled off my TNDL number from memory, the officer validated it from his car, no problems. I was let thru without issue.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
My fellow Earthicans, we enjoy so much freedom it's almost sickening. We're free to choose which hand our sex monitoring chip is implanted in. And if we don't want to pay our taxes, why, we're free to spend a weekend with the pain monster."
Consider that, if you could have a 4% APY account, every $900 that you have in Cash or a non-interest Checking account is effectively $3/mo you're missing out on right there. That's the opportunity cost of cash, and it's as real a cost as any other.
My money - just over $1k right now, until I start my job in a week or two - is presently sitting in ING Direct, where it's earning 4% in a checking account. A checking account! (No paper checks, but I have a debit card and can have them send paper checks to people via the mail for free, and they have enough free ATMs to meet my needs.)
Banks should be your friends, not your foes. Admittedly, using paper money can help you self-regulate spending impulses - it seems more real to be handing over a big wad of bills than swiping a little card - but this isn't some sort of travesty that I would fault the banks or credit system for, it's a matter of self control! If you want to criticize Consumerism and reckless wanton hedonism and spending and such, blame the spenders. And consider that even if you have a bank account, there's certainly no reason why you can't restrict yourself to paying with cash anyway if you've got a convenient enough ATM. Hey, the inconvenience of the ATM could convince you not-to-make even more foolish purchases. Such things are tools! They are their for your benefit as well as the banks'! Use them wisely, but use them!
* Given the present state of interest rates in this country. My Wachovia checking account earns what, 0.2%? I forget.
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Wow the Conspiracy theory nonsense is running amok. Stand Down gents and put your bayonets away. My name is Randall Shake. I am CEO of ACH PAY LLC in Dallas Texas. We have an executed 10 year Marketing agreement with National Paymentcard. The Card Associations charge Merchants Interchange. These fees impact the costs of all goods and services sold in the US. Interchange is less than half in Canada as what we are paying in the US. See www.waytoohigh.com or www.unfaircreditcardfees.com. Most of Visa's and MasterCard's business is from Check Cards or offline Debit. That is over 60% of US Card Association transactions. And with Banks now issuing Amex cards Interchange will climb to 3% to Mirror AMEX rates. The Convenience Stores have 8.3% of their Total Operating Costs tied up in Card Association fees. It is 52% of their Total Transactions. According to the National Association of Convenience Stores see www.nacsonline.com. We are attempting to mitigate these increasing fees that increased 22% last year, and increased again this April. This is a voluntary program, where Merchants can fund a loyalty or rewards program to their customers from the elimination of Card Association Fees. We charge 0% discount rate for our service. A transaction fee only. My company in Dallas Texas will be marketing the service nationwide. We currently have an IP enabled Credit Card terminal under development with an interface to connect to the NPC switch. This is not a Government mandated program. Instead it is an attempt to allow the Free Market to change the consumer paradigm, and give Merchants more control over their Cash Flow which Visa and MasterCard now owns. Randall Shake Chief Executive Officer ACH PAY LLC www.achpayllc.com
This is why I plan on voting for US Rep Dr. Ron Paul in the upcoming primary. He has absolutely stated he is against the Real ID, and any other form of national ID scheme. His voting record shows it too:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
Libertas in infinitum
The book addresses the overconsumption myth quite handily in chapter 2. The primary differences between the finances of a single-provider family from the 70s and a two income family of today is that housing prices have more than doubled. Just between 1983 and 1998, the price of house than an average family with children bought rose from $98K to $175K, adjusted for inflation.
The problem with consumer debt is a combination of a bidding war for housing close to good schools and the deregulation of the debt industry thanks to a Supreme Court decision that allowed for financial institutions to ignore the usury laws of other states when lending to people there. This led to a profusion of easily available credit at ludicrous interest rates. As a result, instead of shutting out families from mortgages that couldn't afford the good rates, financially unstable families are now being targetted with sub-prime mortgages and cheap credit cards.
Naturally, when all these financially risky people started getting in trouble, the response was not to put the financial industry back under control with new efforts against predatory lending but to ram through an anti-bankruptcy bill that actually put paying off credit card debt before making child support payments. What we really need is a federal anti-usury law to clamp down on out-of-control debt offerings.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
If you are using your debit card at an ATM and you type in the PIN number wrong 3 or more times, the machine keeps your card. Even if you are successful in remembering your PIN, you might forget to retrieve your card at the end of your session (I did once). I can just see going to the bank the next day to retrieve your drivers license....
Nothing in that statement prevents a merchant from accepting a card that contains a signature and also demands that the merchant further verify the user with an id card. From what I read in that passage, if you sign the card, and accompany your signature with "ask for ID", they can accept the card.
This is what I do.
-JoeBoy
Your ... license has a magnetic stripe
Um... no. My driver's license (along with every other Washington State license) has no such thing.