Dell Plans to Sell PCs at Wal-Mart

DJAdapt writes "In a departure from Dell's approach of selling machines only directly to customers, a Dell spokesman said Thursday that the computer maker will begin selling two of its Dimension desktop computers in about 3,000 Wal-Marts beginning June 10. Dell spokesman Dwayne Cox said the Wal-Mart deal 'represents our first step' into global retail. 'Customers want more and new ways to buy our products, and we plan on meeting their needs on a global level,' Cox said. 'Offering Dell Dimensions in Wal-Mart is a great example of this approach.'"

Comments

Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[traindirector]

This screams "We want to be the #1 North American computer seller again and we'll just have to deal with the negative effects of that on margins and brand perception".

I'm sure they'll sell a ton of these because of the nature of Wal-Mart, but this seems like a horrible move in terms of the perception it will create about the Dell brand. I can see those who know little about computers who are looking for quality rather than bargain basement pricing steering away from Dell because they will be the new "cheap Wal-Mart computers". Dell will surely be offering low-end models and will make even less on them because a portion of the purchase price goes to Wal-Mart.

I imagine they're going with Wal-Mart because

• Wal-Mart takes less of their profit margin than a Best Buy or Circuit City
• it's a quick way to sell a lot of computers
• pushing up sheer quantity of computer sales to achieve the highest number is their primary goal at the moment.

Either I'm missing something or this is a short-sighted move.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[untaken_name]

Perhaps they'll be seen as the alternative to the 'crappy wal-mart computer'. I am not saying they will, but it's possible. Not everything sold at wal-mart is crap, even though wal-mart IS a crappy company and many wal-mart employees are treated like crap. I'm sad to see it happen, but maybe the experiment will fail.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[SEAL]

Either I'm missing something or this is a short-sighted move.

You're missing the minor point that HP is killing Dell lately, and HP sells most of their computers through traditional brick&mortar channels. Dell is trying to get back in the game.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[amcquay]

Some people were already moving away from Dell when worried about quality and not bargain basement pricing, this move only strengthens that logic in my opinion.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[y86]

Walmart is trying to bring their image up from where it now sits. They are adding wood flooring to stores in my area (fake wood..) and are trying to compete with the higher end competitor, Target. This is a good move for Walmart to try to bring their own brand up...probably not a good move for Dell. Dell would do less damage to it's brand if it chose Target in my eyes. We also need to remember that the Dell brand has lost it's quality in the eyes of those who have used the brand for 10 years. Older Dell computers where never made like the 500$ crap wagons of today... Dell was know for quality and those chose to computer on price which brought down the brand name and the quality.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[traindirector]

You're missing the minor point that HP is killing Dell lately, and HP sells most of their computers through traditional brick&mortar channels. Dell is trying to get back in the game.

No, that was the point of my post, which I stated pretty clearly:

This screams "We want to be the #1 North American computer seller again and we'll just have to deal with the negative effects of that on margins and brand perception"

What puzzles me is that it seems like a bad move in the long run. While selling through Wal-Mart will probably accomplish their sales goals, the damage to their brand could easily hurt worse than the lost sales.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[elrous0]

Wouldn't you just LOVE to be the poor Indian Dell phone support worker suddenly facing a deluge of calls from hillbillies asking "Where's my Tab?"

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[MMC Monster]

My local Walmart sells iPods.

'nuff said.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Red Flayer]

While selling through Wal-Mart will probably accomplish their sales goals, the damage to their brand could easily hurt worse than the lost sales.

Dell's already lost a lot of brand reputation. This isn't going to drag them down much further.

As for using retailers other than Walmart, most B&M eletronics shops already have agreements with HP or another manufacturer. It doesn't make sense for Best Buy, for example, to add another brand to its PC section.

Also, it's important to note that Walmart is in way more markets than any B&M electronics store. Using another retailer would limit Dell's sales.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[LWATCDR]

The real problem I see is simply does WalMart sell a lot of computers?
Yea back in the Commodore-64 days maybe but these days I would think that most people buy computers at Best Buy, CompUSA, or Circus City or any of the other Big Box electronics stores.
Could be wrong but that is they way I see it.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't you just LOVE to be the poor hillbilly who has to talk to some dumbass CS guy in India who barely speaks english?

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[SEAL]

It really depends on the presentation. HP has been cashing in on their higher end PCs, as opposed to the bargain-basement stuff you'd expect in those retailers. The "media PCs" are the ones that catch eyeballs of people walking by in the stores.

If Dell can make a competitive offering like that then I it's not only smart, but necessary to stop the bleeding they've endured recently.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Arterion]

Come down from tower, Mary. You can shop at Wal-Mart like the rest of us "cheap" worthless plebeians.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[maxume]

There's 40,000 people in the county where my hometown is. There is a Walmart and a Staples. Anything else is an hour drive or more. There are 100s of Walmart stores in locations like that.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Captain Splendid]

It doesn't make sense for Best Buy, for example, to add another brand to its PC section.

I (kinda) understand what you're saying here, but how the hell did we get to the point where it's better for a major retailer to have less diversity in the products he's selling than more?

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Anonymous Coward]

Will these Dells have the NASCAR logo on them?

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[SatanicPuppy]

You're talking educated consumers. As far as Joe Sixpack is concerned, Dell is still a quality brand...Hell, you buy a computer from Dell, and it actually has a NAME on the front, as opposed to most of the computers you buy from Best Buy, Staples, and Walmart now.

I dislike Dell, and when people ask me why I say, "I find their tier two and three support to be unbearable, and I hate their proprietary hardware, and their tendency to skimp on things like montherboards." It makes people's eyes glaze over, and in their minds, they file it away under "Nerd crap that doesn't apply to me."

The bottom line is, for the average Walmart buyer, Dell will seem like a sexy, high-end brand, even if they're just dumping their low end stock on Walmart.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[div_2n]

Either I'm missing something or this is a short-sighted move.

No offense, but you are missing something quite subtle yet extremely profound. It is no big secret that the prices of computers have plummeted over the last ten years or so. From the consumer's perspective, this is a great thing. However, this has the interesting side effect of making computer repair less economically attractive. In the age of the disposable society, people just dispose of their computer and buy a new one rather than spend money on repair.

This is where Wal-Mart comes in. They have thrived and to some degree promoted (even if unintentionally) the disposable society. Many things are so cheap that people just go buy a new one if their old one breaks. Selling computers at Wal-Mart is a natural fit for this mentality. While you don't want to sell lemons, you don't have to sell the top of the line $5000 desktop there (in fact, you wouldn't want to). Rather, just sell your low end and low margin PCs there and watch as every couple of years, a consumer buys a new one.

It is this kind of approach to selling low cost goods that led Snapper lawn mowers to refuse to do business with Wal-Mart. Quality is one of their core values. Quantity isn't if it affects quality.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Peyna]

Like almost every other product sold at Wal-Mart, I'm sure the Dell computers sold there will be of a much lower quality than the Dells sold everywhere else.

Just like everything else at Wal-Mart. Yeah, it's sold for less, but it's also a special model sold only at Wal-Mart made with the cheapest possible parts you can buy. So, when people buy your product at Wal-Mart, they are indeed getting an inferior product.

I remember a great story I read about some lawn mower/tractor company that refused to do business with Wal-Mart where a lot of these things were disclosed. Found it: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/102/open_snapp er.html.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[astrashe]

Lots of top brands are sold through wal-mart now -- coca-cola and apple ipods come to mind. Dell's brand will rise and fall on the quality of their products.

I think this is a good move because it addresses a couple of the weaknesses in dell's model. First of all, there are times when you need a computer *now* -- maybe an old machine has died, or whatever. You can't wait 10 days. Now you can go to wal-mart at 2am and buy a new dell. You'll get a good machine at a good price, so you won't be penalized because you're in a hurry. That's cool.

Second of all, a lot of people (non-geeks, mostly) are squeamish about buying machines they can't play with first. It's a big purchase, they don't feel confident that they know what they're doing, and they're nervous. They want to thump the melon before they buy it. These people all buy HP's now -- that's why so many non-geeks you know have HPs. Getting Dells into retail stores will give them a crack at this market.

Wal-Mart conducts its business in ways that have a lot of negative side effects -- they kill off main streets, they pay their workers very little and treat them in ways that I would never want to be treated. All of that is real, and it's important, and people are right to be mad about all of it.

But they do pass it all back to customers -- it's all part of an all consuming push to get the prices on the shelves as low as possible. I think it's hard to make an argument that for customers -- not suppliers, not employees, but customers -- wal-mart is a bad company to do business with when compared to outfits like best buy or circuit city.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[SaDan]

Will these Dells have the NASCAR logo on them?

The HP desktops and laptops they currently sell don't seem to have any NASCAR affiliations, so I doubt the Dell systems will either.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[CastrTroy]

I don't understand why every company wants to be the biggest company in the world. So what if someone ships more units than you, or has a bigger revenue. The PS2 outsold the GC by a huge margin, but I don't think Nintendo cared, because they were still making lots of profit. I don't understand the logic behind companies who only want to be the biggest, and don't want to be the best.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[tugnutt831]

So what if they want to the the #1 North American computer seller again, shouldn't a business strive to be #1? Dell's business model is no longer the competitive advantage it used to be now that many other computer manufacturers offer the same build-your own strategy that has worked for Dell in the past. Also, like other posters have mentioned, not everything Wal-Mart sells has the "cheap" connotation; HP sells computers and their peripherals at Wal-Mart just the same as Best Buy and Circuit City. So I don't think Dell deserves criticism, they're doing what they can to stay competitive and not choosing to stick with a business model that has lost its advantage.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Red Flayer]

It's always been true for retailers with limited space. No reason to waste shelf space on more than two products that fulfill the same demand in purchasers.

Marketing studies have shown that giving customers too much choice is as bad as giving them too little choice in terms of maximizing sales. At a given price level, you want to give your customer no more than two choices for the same product.

This doesn't always work out, since Sony, for example, might require that you carry their entire line of digital cameras if you want to carry any of it -- so you might end up with Sony + Nikon + Canon all at one price level, just so you can have Sony + Fuji at another price level.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Captain Splendid]

It's always been true for retailers with limited space.

Again, I see what you're saying, but I can't help chuckle when I think about these enormous boxes the BBs and CCs live in. Hell, the last time I was in Circuit City, I was struck by how much dead space there was in there. I'm not even talking about the ridiculously high ceiling, either (seriously, there's room for a whole freaking second floor there), but how "loosely packed" the store was with merchandise. BB seems to be better at store layouts, but these places have always struck me as having been designed by kindergarteners.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Khaed]

Same here.

Not everything Wal-Mart sells is cheaply made. They don't sell cheaper Wal-Mart versions of the Wii/PS3/X-Box 360, or the iPod, or the Sansa, or Sanyo/Sony/whatever TVs and electronics. No one thinks Brand X of TV is crap because Wal-Mart sells them.

This isn't to say Wal-Mart doesn't sell their own crappy brands of stuff, but to assume everything sold their is cheap crap is ignorance.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[SEAL]

It's always been true for retailers with limited space. No reason to waste shelf space on more than two products that fulfill the same demand in purchasers.

That, and competing suppliers like to ink contracts that exclude their competitors. How often do you find both Coca-Cola and Pepsi for sale in the same restaurant?

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[uncoveror]

The help desk can refer them to this article if they need help finding the "any" key.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[foxtrot]

Either I'm missing something or this is a short-sighted move.

I think this is great. Two Dell stories today:

1) Dell sells in Wal-Mart.
2) Dell sells pre-loaded with Ubuntu.

All we need to do is convince Dell to convince the two and people will actually start buying Linux PCs!

Hm, or maybe they'll go over just as well as the Linspire ones. Ok, you win.

-F

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Chris Mattern]

I don't understand why every company wants to be the biggest company in the world. So what if someone ships more units than you, or has a bigger revenue.

Because it has become the received wisdom that a company should be number one or number two in a given business, or it should get out of that business. Jack Welch championed this notion during his immensely successful tenure at GE, and most management now subscribes to it. Whether or not it's *true* may be another matter, but most CEOs these days run their company on this principle.

Chris Mattern

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[ePhil_One]

I'm sad to see it happen, but maybe the experiment will fail.

I suspect it will fail because Dell is not set up to do returns, yet Walmart store policy typically requires it (I know there are exceptions, like CD's and software). Dell will see a flood of returns when people take the computer home, pull out the hard drive and Ram, then return it as not functioning (how many times I saw this at Computer City...). Dell officially takes returns, but generally fixes by repair rather than exchange on the consumer side. Wlamart like to fix by exchange and force the costs back on teh manufacturer becasue they can.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Market share is an irrelevant game, there's no point in fighting over Walmart customers when the margins may very well be less than 1% and is likely to undercut the rest of their business.

Dell may not have the most unit sales, but it seems like they still make more net profits from personal computers than HP does, and I see no reason to throw it away to get market share through low margin computers. I'm still deciphering the numbers from their quarterly reports though. I wish there was an easier way to do this.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[jt418-93]

circuit city is already dieing because of wal marts descision to sell big screen flat panels for under 1k. the fall out from that has caused major closedowns in the electronics sector. the big screens were everyone's major profit generator, now they are a margin item.

this is just a continuation of the war on other stores by satan mart. and they will sell a metric butt load of pc's, maybe even some of those dellinux boxes we keep hearing about.

hell, i might get one just to replace that old k6/200 that i use for a linux gateway :) but it's been working since 97....

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Random Destruction]

I dislike Dell, and when people ask me why I say, "I find their tier two and three support to be unbearable, and I hate their proprietary hardware, and their tendency to skimp on things like montherboards." It makes people's eyes glaze over, and in their minds, they file it away under "Nerd crap that doesn't apply to me."

Then let me help. Try this: "I find their phone support to be unbearable, and the parts are cheaply made." That has a lot more real-life solidity to it.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[icepick72]

More than likely it will be purchased because it is the new Walmart basement bargain. If users turn out to like their Dells they may very well stick with the brand. It's brand building. There should be no hesitation to calling Dell the new basement bargain. Call a spade a spade. It can go many ways.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[SEAL]

I'm not Michael Dell of course, but my guess is that Dell sees higher unit sales as an opportunity for higher sell-through numbers on their preinstalled trial software. They _already_ have a low margin on hardware sales; it's the preinstalled crapware, accessories, and subscription services / warranty that provide the majority of their profit.

Reaching more customers is rarely a bad thing.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[rapidweather]

Walmart sales will only be a small percentage of total Dell sales. They will "stack and sell" what Dell sends them, and there is no "added value reseller" to it. You'll pick the box up, put it on your shopping cart, go to "self checkout", and out the door with your new Dell PC.
From USA Today's story just out:

Wal-Mart is expected to account for only a tiny part of Dell's business. Stephen Baker, a tech analyst with researcher NPD, expects Dell to sell between 30,000 and 50,000 PCs there initially. Dell sold nearly 9 million PCs in the first three months of the year, mainly though catalogs and the Internet.

I bought a Dell Inspiron on line, and it was delivered Tuesday, 05-22-07. Paid about $1,700 for it, Dell took $500 off the $2,200 beginning price. It has Vista on it (cringe).
They are a good Company, and do look after the customers. I wonder how the Walmart setup will figure in to that. Normally, Walmart is very easy to deal with on any returns, no questions asked. Probably the purchaser will deal directly with Dell on any problems on a Walmart-purchased computer, I can't imagine Dell leaving the buyer high and dry just because they bought the PC at Walmart.
Dell does have excellent online support, they have a complete driver download site that you need if you have to reinstall the OS, to get rid of all of the preloaded "crapware" on the PC. I did that recently on another Inspiron, with XP. I found that the "restoration cd" does not access all of the drivers you need on a particular PC, not even 40% of them. They have a hidden partition with the restoration, and another one for the Media Direct setup, that bypasses the main OS. This is unlike the days when Toshiba's restoration CD could put everything back like it was when the PC was new. So, you do need Dell's online support and drivers, even if you have to get some drivers downloaded on another PC, and move them to your machine with a USB flash drive.
To get all of the hardware information and to see the hidden partitions, I booted the machine with my Knoppix remaster, and used KDE's system information application, and wrote everything down, then when looking for needed drivers from Dell.
No, I can't imagine the average Walmart purchaser doing something like that, but it would result in a smoother running PC, without all the unnecessary Dell additional software. I don't recommend anyone trying this, but I was sucessful, with XP, anyway. You may re-partition the hard drive, as long as the restoration partition is not touched.

--Rapidweather

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work for AST computers. In 1996 they were starting the decline that lead their end. In 1996 they became the first retailer to sell a sub $1000 dollar computer. They did this with WalMart. WalMart is still here, AST is all gone.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[LWATCDR]

Most people only buy a computer every two or three years so an hours drive for a better selection seems like a good trade off. My family used to drive about two hours to the nearest Mall twice a year. In the Fall for school cloths and in December for Christmas shopping. Not like getting a loaf of bread and a carton of milk.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[xerxesVII]

Maybe I'm just too big of a geek, but his statement really piques my curiosity.

I have to know: What on earth is a montherboard?

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Random Destruction]

Yeah I noticed too, but let it go. Its probably the piece of hardware that accelerates software based calenders.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[MoxFulder]

You know, it's funny... the last 3 PCs I'd bought were from brick-and-mortar stores, and 2 were HPs (the other was an Acer). I like the look-and-feel of HP laptops, and my mom liked their slim desktop cases. Until recently, I had felt that HP had better prices than Dell as well.

But today I just ordered a new Dell laptop. The reason? It's *so freakin' cheap* ... I got an Athlon 64 X2 TL-60, 1gb DDR2, SATA 80gb, 15.4" glossy screen, DVD/CDRW, 9-cell battery, yadda... for $595 with taxes (http://www.fatwallet.com/t/18/733198). The closest thing from HP/Compaq was this Pavilion from CompUSA for about $560 after taxes and rebates, but it has half the RAM and a slower TL-50 processor, as well as being heavier, although it does have DVD+-RW and S-Video. And I loathe mail in rebates.

When did Dell stop being the "premium" brand and switch places with HP?? I haven't bought a laptop in a while, and I'm quite surprised to see Dell competing agressively on price!

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[twistedcubic]

Not only that, but in many small southern towns, Wal-Mart is the cultural and commercial center (not an exaggeration). They could probably sell as many computers as a Best Buy store in one of those cities.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor guy, it might take all the energy he was saving to fuck his daughter.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[sensei moreh]

Attention non-Walmart Shoppers - Walmart already sells HP computers

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[mabhatter654]

the #1 world PC maker would be the Taiwanese company Dell buys computers from!!!! Probably a company like Asus or Quanta that sells to rebranders in the US but "out the door" to retailers in Asia.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[adona1]

You got that right. I have one, but you have to be careful. I overclocked it and ended up losing six weeks ;)

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[The One and Only]

I can see those who know little about computers who are looking for quality rather than bargain basement pricing steering away from Dell because they will be the new "cheap Wal-Mart computers".

As opposed to those who know more about computers steering away from Dell because they were cheap Wal-Mart-esque computers already, and have been for years?/p?

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[vuffi_raa]

this is what I see as a very good thing- both the selling of linux machines and the move by dell not to force vista down ppl's throats- I have been a windows guy the majority of my adult life (when I was younger though I was a die hard commodore fan- I loved me an amiga) I want linux to go mainstream because I want app support for what I do to be in in linux so that I can move to it. If it goes mainstream then developers for apps that I use (audio mainly- but also 3d and video) will support linux. As it stands right now for me linux is a toy, but I can't do any real work with it at home (I use it at work because I handle databases at work).

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[vuffi_raa]

it is funny but the version of XP that I am using right now is from a dell desktop (my machine is self built)- I had a bunch of bloatware on my original XP install disc so I got this one from work and used my license on it- there was 1 folder on C: called dell support and the rest of this install had absolutely no extra crap on it at all. I noticed when reformatting a bunch of machines at work that the large OEM versions of pro that came with our palettes were totally clean. As for my laptop that I purchased recently(lenovo) it had the drivers in the root of C: in a folder called "drivers for reinstall"- pretty cool- before I ever used it I went through it and cleaned extraneous crap from it- tested it out and imaged the c: and created a bootable restore for it so that I can do like the toshiba restore.

Re:Increase sales volume, destroy the brand

[feedmetrolls]

Look closer.

"No wait, it's a J-pod! It's so hard to tell those two letters apart."

This represents our first step into...

[Datamonstar]

... global dominatio... I mean retail...

Re:This represents our first step into...

[Anonymous Coward]

Rachel Carson's Genocide
by Keith Lockitch (May 23, 2007)

On May 27, environmentalists will celebrate what would have been the 100th birthday of Rachel Carson, the founding mother of their movement.

But Carson's centenary is no cause for celebration. Her legacy includes more than a million deaths a year from the mosquito-borne disease malaria. Though nearly eradicated decades ago, malaria has resurged with a vengeance because DDT, the most effective agent of mosquito control, has been essentially discarded--discarded based not on scientific concerns about its safety, but on environmental dogma advanced by Carson.

The crusade against DDT began with Carson's antipesticide diatribe "Silent Spring," published in 1962 at the height of the worldwide antimalaria campaign. The widespread spraying of DDT had caused a spectacular drop in malaria incidence--Sri Lanka, for example, reported 2.8 million malaria victims in 1948, but by 1963 it had only 17. Yet Carson's book made no mention of this. It said nothing of DDT's crucial role in eradicating malaria in industrialized countries, or of the tens of millions of lives saved by its use.

Instead, Carson filled her book with misinformation--alleging, among other claims, that DDT causes cancer. Her unsubstantiated assertion that continued DDT use would unleash a cancer epidemic generated a panicked fear of the pesticide that endures as public opinion to this day.

But the scientific case against DDT was, and still is, nonexistent. Almost 60 years have passed since the malaria-spraying campaigns began--with hundreds of millions of people exposed to large concentrations of DDT--yet, according to international health scholar Amir Attaran, the scientific literature "has not even one peer reviewed, independently replicated study linking exposure to DDT with any adverse health outcome." Indeed, in a 1956 study, human volunteers ate DDT every day for over two years with no ill effects then or since.

Abundant scientific evidence supporting the safety and importance of DDT was presented during seven months of testimony before the newly formed EPA in 1971. The presiding judge ruled unequivocally against a ban. But the public furor against DDT--fueled by "Silent Spring" and the growing environmental movement--was so great that a ban was imposed anyway. The EPA administrator, who hadn't even bothered to attend the hearings, overruled his own judge and imposed the ban in defiance of the facts and evidence. And the 1972 ban in the United States led to an effective worldwide ban, as countries dependent on U.S.-funded aid agencies curtailed their DDT use to comply with those agencies' demands.

So if scientific facts are not what has driven the furor against DDT, what has? Estimates put today's malaria incidence worldwide at around 300 million cases, with a million deaths every year. If this enormous toll of human suffering and death is preventable, why do environmentalists--who profess to be the defenders of life--continue to oppose the use of DDT?

The answer is that environmental ideology values an untouched environment above human life. The root of the opposition to DDT is not science but the environmentalist moral premise that it is wrong for man to "tamper" with nature.

The large-scale eradication of disease-carrying insects epitomizes the control of nature by man. This is DDT's sin. To Carson and the environmentalists she inspired, "the 'control of nature' is a phrase conceived in arrogance, born of the Neanderthal age of biology and philosophy." Nature, they hold, is intrinsically valuable and must be kept free from human interference.

On this environmentalist premise the proper attitude to nature is not to seek to improve it for human benefit, but to show "humility" before its "vast forces" and leave it alone. We should seek, Carson wrote, not to eliminate malarial mosquitoes with pesticides, but to find instead "a reasonable accommodation between the insect hordes and ourselves." If the untouched, "natural" state is one

Re:This represents our first step into...

[dascandy]

That slipup actually half went through. Wal-mart has nothing to do with global anything, it's America-only (probably even USA only).

Re:This represents our first step into...

[Random Destruction]

According to the Wal-Mart Stores-International Operations page,

Wal-Mart International:

Argentina
Brazil
Canada
China
Costa Rica
El Salvador
Germany
Guatemala
Honduras
Japan
Mexico
Nicaragua
Puerto Rico
United Kingdom

Re:This represents our first step into...

[nickspoon]

Wal-Mart owns various different stores in various different countries under various different names. For example, ASDA, a large chain of discount supermarkets in the UK, are a division of Wal-Mart (it says so on the bag). And as far as I am aware, ASDA sell electronics, though I don't know about PCs. Now the question here is, will Dell be pushing for international retail at Wal-Mart's various international divisions, or just within America? Only time or a Dell representative will tell.

Direct

[DotNM]

I guess they're not so "Direct" anymore.

Re:Direct

[_KiTA_]

Nah, Dell's still just as direct.

Want to buy from us directly? Sure, give us a call at 1-800-999-3355 (WWW-DELL).
Wanna peek at our machines, be wowed at how nice they look, then call us from home when you're ready to buy? Head into Walmart (and Costco, and eventually, K-Mart, Fred Meyer, Target and Fry's...).
Wanna buy a machine straight from Walmart? Sure, grab that little tag and bring it to the counter.

So Dell's listening to their customers who are saying "I'm not comfortable calling in an order for something as complex as a PC." How is this a bad thing?

Re:Direct

[MyLongNickName]

Because, instead of going into a rant, you could have read his post. He is simply indicating that they are not solely "direct" anymore. He did not say there was anything wrong with it. Dell has, for years, maintained that direct was the only way to provide the lowest costs. This was their credo. Now that are going against what they have preached for years.

Nothing wrong with this. Just a change.

Union business...

[TripMaster Monkey]

I wonder how this will affect Dell's business is pursues with the unions, given Wal-mart's rather extreme anti-union track record.

Re:Union business...

[tthomas48]

I thought Dell had a pretty anti-union track record. They're a Texas based business (right to work state). Am I wrong?

Re:Union business...

[TripMaster Monkey]

All I know is that several union establishments use Dell systems, and these same establishments avoid Wal-Mart like the plague, due to their aggressive anti-unionism. When push comes to shove, I wonder if the unions will have the courage of their convictions to seek another vendor.

Re:Union business...

[Anonymous Coward]

TMM Welcome back :)
Do not forget you are speaker for the speaker for the council of the elders.
Please rectify your absence upon the next (dupe of a) Martian story.

Re:Union business...

[tthomas48]

Ahh... I wonder if this is a case where there are no union shops. And considering the other major vendors are already firmly ensconced at walmart... it will be interesting to watch.

Ubuntu

[Anonymous Coward]

Will at least one of the models have ubuntu pre-installed? that'd be awesome

Re:Ubuntu

[Applekid]

I doubt they'd have Ubuntu pre-installed. This reeks of a scam.

Walmart is huge, and putting cheap windows machines there will mean they will get bought by many. Then Dell can come back to sales figures and go, "See? We told you! Consumers just don't want Linux on their computers," and then discontinue the line. Microsoft leaves happy, Dell leaves happy, and the average customer doesn't even know what hit them.

I was WONDERING why Dell was getting so cozy with the idea of selling Linux machines without a lot of hoop-jumping.

Re:Ubuntu

[Mockylock]

Well, if you checked out the prices of the linux pc's, you'd find that the price didn't change much, if any. When I looked at them, they were almost the same price (if not exactly the same) as the rest of the pc's that were available with Vista or XP.

My guess is, they did it for 2 reasons.

1. Microsoft relations.
2. Profit.

So, it wasn't as glorious and cheap as everyone thought they would be.

Re:Ubuntu

[phildawg]

Yea I really think all the Linux freaks lost out on the Dell deal. They wanted to get away with not paying for an operating system and therefore getting an even cheaper deal that dell already is. Now, since it costs the same, nobody will buy them and it will just prove even further how futile linux is outside of the server and workstation environment... as if it's usage rates didn't already show that =)

Re:Ubuntu

[Mockylock]

I don't think it's a bad OS, but I also don't think that any *nix user is going to buy a Dell.

But, you're right about "since it costs the same", for one. Now that they're the same price, I see people actually grabbing a windows version, saving the license and installing the "free" OS as they do already.

Where's the point and laugh button?

Re:Ubuntu

[seandiggity]

"get away without paying for an operating system"? More like "not being forced to pay for a specific operating system". If Ubuntu started to cost something, I'd pay it as long as it wasn't astronomical.

Anyway, Dell could sell a cheaper product with a free (as in freedom and price) operating system but its deals with Microsoft would go down the shitter. But don't you think those "outside the server and workstation environment" would buy the Ubuntu machine if it were cheaper (if not because they heard of the other benefits also)? Isn't it obvious that Microsoft is basically running an extortion racket?

Those "usage rates" don't exist in a vacuum or some sort of free market.

Re:Ubuntu

[Applekid]

It's going to wind up with a big black cloud over any other big integrator (HP, eMachines, etc.) ever releasing an appropriately priced Linux OS machine... and therefore mainstream acceptance.

"It's not a viable plan, it didn't work with Dell." and the discussion will end there. Not only will the monoculture not be split, but this might completely eliminate the acceptance of preinstalled-linux as a method to give people a choice.

Re:Ubuntu

[_KiTA_]

I doubt they'd have Ubuntu pre-installed. This reeks of a scam.

Walmart is huge, and putting cheap windows machines there will mean they will get bought by many. Then Dell can come back to sales figures and go, "See? We told you! Consumers just don't want Linux on their computers," and then discontinue the line. Microsoft leaves happy, Dell leaves happy, and the average customer doesn't even know what hit them.

I was WONDERING why Dell was getting so cozy with the idea of selling Linux machines without a lot of hoop-jumping.


What the heck. I heard this EXACT same argument, word for word, when HP announced Linux machines.

Yes, I'm sure Microsoft just has soooooo much pull with Dell that they could force Dell to make Linux machines, then partner with Walmart (changing their entire corporate strategy), just so they could intentionally fail just so Microsoft can create some new FUD.

My head hurts.

Re:Ubuntu

[Mockylock]

At least it won't fade out quickly, it's not like they have a ton of money into it. The option will still be there.

Re:Ubuntu

[statusbar]

No, that is incorrect. It is not about price, it is about choice. When Dell officially supports linux then they are saying that the computer is guaranteed to work with it and all the drivers required are installed and work.

It is always tough to make a laptop work for primary use with Linux, besides intel based Apple's, unless the manufacturer specifically supports all the combinations of hardware for linux.

--jeffk++

Re:Ubuntu

[Applekid]

All it takes is the right person in power.

Remember those articles about Intel in bed with Dell with under-the-table payoffs? How about HP's high moral standard as evidenced by the last snafu that had the SEC on their tail (for which they got but a slap on the wrist, something else that smells bad).

I'm all for the simplest explanation usually being the right one, but, it's an awful lot of coincidence that Linux Dells are available in such close proximity to this announcement, don't you think?

Will they offer Ubuntu machines at Walmart ?

[the_rajah]

I suspect the answer will be no, but a geek can always hope.

Re:Will they offer Ubuntu machines at Walmart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course ubuntu will be loaded, cos geeks are well known for going to wallmart for the latest in computer hardware

Re:Will they offer Ubuntu machines at Walmart ?

[GweeDo]

Walmart sold Linspire machines for a while, so Linux from Walmart isn't completely out of the question.

Re:Will they offer Ubuntu machines at Walmart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were a real geek, you'd be too embarrassed to buy a computer at Wal-Mart.

Re:Will they offer Ubuntu machines at Walmart ?

[lukisi]

Perhaps we could suggest it in Ideastorm.

Re:Will they offer Ubuntu machines at Walmart ?

[Anonymous Coward]

my mom buys my underware at Walmart she can pick up my new Ubuntu just as easy.

Wal*Mart Bob

[Anonymous Coward]

I sure hope they bring back an elderly Microsoft Bob as a greeter for my computer when it boots up.

Re:Wal*Mart Bob

[SQLGuru]

I still have an MS-BOB CD (turned it into a clock face). In about 25....err...75...err...1,000 years when the copyright expires, I'll send you an ISO image.

Or maybe you can start an off-site back-up service similar to Iron Mountain. Then, I can make a personal back-up that I store at your "facility" in case my CD ever becomes unusable (and by unusable, I'm not referring to the actual lack of use of the software, but the inability to read the disk).

Layne

Re:Wal*Mart Bob

[LunaticTippy]

Sorry to crap on your parade, but MS-BOB is abandonware and is freely available here (German page, but ms-bob is in english)

Re:Wal*Mart Bob

[dctoastman]

Sorry to disillusion you, but "abandonware" doesn't mean copyright has expired. MS could still sue for distribution of MS Bob.

But then they would have to bring it back to the public eye themselves. So I think sheer humiliation will keep them from suing.

Re:Wal*Mart Bob

[LunaticTippy]

I'd like to see some legal rulings on abandonware. Right now copyright is still in effect even if the company is gone and hasn't assigned the rights. In the meantime, a good rule of thumb might be if the software is available on a prominent website and it isn't c&d within several years the rights owners probably don't care. Filesharing is a whole different case since there is no effective way to stamp out every copy on the entire planet. Hm, I wonder if there are any MS-BOB torrents around?

In any case, the OP could have just posted a link. I would have guessed anyone with a MS-BOB CD clock would know about the availability of the code. It's been there in the top few search results for years.

Another thought: I actually owned a copy of MS-BOB when it was current, and I don't think the licensing was as draconian as is fashionable these days. It might be completely legal for me to use.

I'd like for copyright to revert to public domain if the work is not available for purchase for some number of years. We're going to lose a lot of works forever if this issue isn't addressed.

But will they run Linux?

[solevita]

Wow, a genuine reason to ask the question, you don't get one of those everyday!

Re:But will they run Linux?

[andrewd18]

Of course they will run Linux. Whether or not they ship with Linux is the real question.

Re:But will they run Linux?

[solevita]

True, but I'm never one to let the truth get in the way of a good(?) joke.

Re:But will they run Linux?

[mhall119]

Actually whether or not they ship with Linux is a very important question. Giving Joe Sixpack the ability to walk up to a computer running Ubuntu (especially with Compiz/Beryl runnnig) and play around with, realize that it's not as complicated as people keep saying, would be HUGE! That would be even better than television commercials.

Re:But will they run Linux?

[laffer1]

True. Look how the apple stores have helped Apple. My favorite thing is when there is a Dell booth near an Apple store. Around back to school season, you can seen 20 customers compare Dell boxes to Macs and walk out with a new MacBook or iMac. With the right linux distro and proper marketing, its possible some people might buy linux machines. It would be an interesting experiment to setup shop in a mall and see what consumers pick. Apple's increase in market share shows some people don't care if they run Windows.

Re:But will they run Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it comes with Linux, Joe Sixpack will be pissed when it doesn't play the bass fishing simulation game he bought for his "pc", the next aisle over...

Dell won't want a bunch of open-box returns to deal with. What do you think this is, Fry's?

Re:But will they run Linux?

[drharris]

So Joe is sufficiently impressed by the flashy eye candy.. Then he goes to the salesperson and say "ok.. now that I have a computer - I need Quicken ( or QuickBooks ) and... something so I can make my home movies into DVDs. Oh, and I want to play DVD movies on it too... and.. my Son wants this cool video game on the shelf here.. and my wife wants Greetings Workshop to make her own cards ( actually this one is a MUST for my wife even )"

I don't want to be the Linuxfan salesperson who has to explain that they can't do those things and instead has to steer them about 3 feet to their left and point out a flashy Windows Vista machine that can do all of those things. "oh.. and this is $60 cheaper too? Why would anyone want that Linux thing if it costs more and I can't do anything with it?"

People who are told "oh.. yeah its cool but you can't run XYZ on it (without WINE or a VM or something else that Joe would *NEVER* install)" are going to be even more turned off by GNU/Linux than if they had never heard of it to begin with.

Commercial software MUST exist before Joe Sixpack is going to buy a Linux preloaded machine. This is a chicken and egg scenario somewhat, but it's an uncrackable egg until more ISVs wake up to the cross platform revolution.

Re:But will they run Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

At Walmart, linux runs you!

Re:But will they run Linux?

[mhall119]

The thing is, with Ubuntu Joe Sixpack doesn't need to buy Quicken, a DVD creator, a DVD player or Greetings Workshop, because their equivalents all available for free through the Ubuntu repositories! Commercial software doesn't have to exist for every need, just for the ones where there isn't an open source equivalent.

So (in bizzaro world, where Walmart employees know anything about Linux) the salesperson would explain to Joe that if he gets the $60 more expensive Ubuntu system, he doesn't need to spend $100 on all those other programs. Plus he gets a full office suite installed by default, so he doesn't have to spend multiple $100s on MS Office. Oh, and he doesn't need to buy those virus scanners and spyware removal tools, saving even more money. Then the saleperson will tell Joe that if he buys the Ubuntu system, he will get free upgrades for life, for all of the products it comes with. Sounds a bit more compelling when you put it that way, doesn't it?

The only thing you would have trouble with is games, which is a known problem for Linux as it used to be for Mac. Since Mac doesn't have DirectX, I would guess that they use OpenGL for 3D games, so it wouldn't take much of a Linux market to make it worthwhile for the games companies to port their Mac version to run on Linux too.

Finally they figured it out

[Anonymous Coward]

Somehow those who were purchasing their first computer were unable to buy it online.

Re:Finally they figured it out

[tepples]

Somehow those who were purchasing their first computer were unable to buy it online. Public library?

Re:Finally they figured it out

[aegisalpha]

I guess they didn't have telephones either?

Re:Finally they figured it out

[prelelat]

OOooo I'm going to add one, Dell has these things in malls called Kiosks you can buy them their too. They have a bunch of stuff on display and they have I think at least one computer connected to the net where you can order one. I think thats how it works but I know you can order one there. :)

Re:Finally they figured it out

[colesw]

Yes who doesn't want to use their credit card at a public library?

hmm...

[Mockylock]

I guess anything is better than HP.

I wonder where they'll stuff them in their already cluttered electronics department?

Or, will they just have them on crates in the middle of the isles?

"Well, I'm going to go pick up some diapers, I'll meet you between the Dell and snack isles."

Re:hmm...

[HikingStick]

You're spot on with your thinking here. Unless Dell is bulldoggish with Wal-Mart, their products will just replace the other PCs that are not on display at Wal-Mart. I'll admit I've seen a couple machines on display in recent years, and there are usually three laptop models under acryllic, but Wal-Mart's model with PCs is to stack them on a pallet in the middle of the isle and to slap their smiley-face price sign on the pallet. If you know what you want and it's in your price range, you'll buy them, but I doubt Wal-Mart will become a destination to shop Dell.

Actually, about 14 years ago, Wal-Marts actually had a lot of PCs on display. I bought my first home computer, an IBM PS/2 (x486, 16 Mb RAM, 200 Mb HDD if memory serves correctly) on clearance there for under $1,000 USD (when sub-$1k PCs were a dream). There were at least 5 models from which to choose. If anyone has the economies of scope to challenge Best Buy, it is Wal-Mart. I just wonder if this partnership will really benefit Dell, or if building negative consumer sentiment toward Wal-Mart will eventually impact Dell's image.

Re:hmm...

[aditi]

It's AISLE! Not isle - that's a landmass surrounded on all sides by water. Aisle. [shudders]

Re:hmm...

[Mockylock]

fuck.

I should have spent more time writing about grocery stores.

About time.

[kabocox]

About time! Dell loses out on those that purchase those instore HP/Compaq machines. It shouldn't take much for Dell to actually compete in that market space, which would be good all round. Web sites + Shipping is good for some people, but for the crowd that travels to Walmart twice a week; it's just easier to buy something from a store that you are always in. Plus think of the builtin marketing of just having the machines in the stores.

Re:About time.

[CastrTroy]

The problem with the computers that are sold for retail is that the specs are often out of whack with the price, and there are not options for configuration. The strong point of Dell is that you can configure a bunch of things with your computer, and also that they can upsell you by offering you speakers, keyboards, mice, and routers as you go through the checkout process. Most of the advantage of Dell is lost once you try to bring it into the retail market. The time between creating the specs for the machine and getting it into the customer's hands is too long to maintain an optimal price. I don't see how they'll be able to offer computers at wal-mart for comparable prices of what they offer online.

Re:About time.

[kabocox]

The time between creating the specs for the machine and getting it into the customer's hands is too long to maintain an optimal price. I don't see how they'll be able to offer computers at wal-mart for comparable prices of what they offer online.

HP/Compaq seems to be doing a pretty good job of keeping their instore stock current. If the current HP/Compaq can do it, I'd think that Dell could as well.

Re:About time.

[CastrTroy]

It depends what you consider current. I've seen lots of HP/Compaq computers at Radio Shack and other stores keep the same model at the same price for months on end. That may be alright for some people, but I know that prices change on a weekly basis, and you don't get the best deal with this kind of business model.

Oblig new slogan

[Degrees]

Dude! You're going to WalMart!

Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[tepples]

I can see those who know little about computers who are looking for quality rather than bargain basement pricing steering away from Dell because they will be the new "cheap Wal-Mart computers". Any more than a PLAYSTATION 3 video game console is perceived as the "cheap Wal-Mart console"?

Dell [...] will make even less on them because a portion of the purchase price goes to Wal-Mart. As opposed to a portion of the purchase price going to DHL (or whatever shipping company Dell uses)?

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[traindirector]

Any more than a PLAYSTATION 3 video game console is perceived as the "cheap Wal-Mart console"?

A PlayStation 3 is a single item with a single manufacturer that doesn't vary in price or quality depending on where you get it. No matter where you buy, you get the same PS3. Do you really think the same is true with computers for someone who doesn't know much about them? I'm going to leave the burden of proof with you, as this doesn't seem worth writing an argument for.

As opposed to a portion of the purchase price going to DHL (or whatever shipping company Dell uses)?

It's clearly cheaper for Dell to pay their super cut-rate DHL shipping than to give Wal-Mart a portion of the profit and to ship to their DCs. If it weren't, how would Dell be saving money by only selling direct for so long?

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[edizzles]

Your missing the point a ps3 = ps3, but all computers arte not created equal. People know that unlike you, and therfore will probly asume that its the bardgain brand, but then i;d have to see what wally mart will be selling them for. All in all probly not the best move on dells part, i would have stuck with the drirect to consumer sales.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Chabil Ha']

As opposed to a portion of the purchase price going to DHL (or whatever shipping company Dell uses)? What I think he's aluding to, is not that Dell hands them a check to do business with them, but Wal-Mart is notorius for being cut-throat on getting the absolute best deal possible. Having visited their HQ in Bentonville, Arkansas, and speaking with all the dozens of corporate lackies that lick Wal-Mart's boots there, they all tell the same story: Wal-Mart drives a very hard bargain. What they get in larger distribution and volumes, Wal-Mart takes out by driving down their margins. That said, they all consistantly say that 'Wal-Mart is hard, but fair'.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[BakaHoushi]

At the same time, I've seen instances, quite a few, where a company produces two varieties of the same item:
One for a "normal" store
The other for Wal*Mart.
The difference being that the Walmart version is always inferior at some level.

Personally, this does not surprise me, but it worries me. People have a hard enough time dealing with computers now. How well with the average Joe deal with them when Wal*Mart sells them a cardboard box full of rocks and calls it a PC?

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're missing something here. I have to side with the grandparent poster on this.

Dell has been a good company because they have been known for having good quality machines, have been highly configurable and made to order and were once known for their stellar support. WalMart does not assist in any of those qualities.

What WalMart is famous for is driving prices of their suppliers so low that they invariably end up skimping on the quality. Dimension series machines aren't known for being heavy performers to begin with but I am rather afraid of what may happen.

Playstation consoles are items in a box. Each one is the same. The way they are used is the same. The software they run is the same, on and on and on. General purpose PCs are a different animal and I genuinely fear how badly WalMart can mess this up for Dell. I can see Gateway doing this... I have never held Gateway with high regards.

Damnit, if Dell would ask its customers what they should do to bring themselves back to their previous glory, the answer is staring right back at them. PUT BACK EVERYTHING they took away. Bring service and support back to the US. (Really, that's the biggest thing) Bring back the quality hardware. They need to go back to doing what they did before. They had an excellent long-term thing going on. And every time some short-sighted Get-Rich-Quick investor/shareholder demands instant returns and to do more of what the competitors are doing, IGNORE their dumb asses. Let the stock value go down a little and remain true to what really works for the company. The stock market is a VERY bad measure of a company's success. The market is too emotional to truly judge value for anything at all...and they are always short-term.

I have yet to hear anything positive about ROI or anything good coming from moving their support centers overseas. The initial drop in operating costs might look good to shareholders, but the long-term effects are plain for everyone to see, and obvious for their customers to have predicted.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Manaknight1980]

Actually Wal-mart is really upgrading their electronics section. The store I work at will soon be carrying Sony Bravias along with better lines from Sharp than they've carried in the past as well as some nice looking Phillips TV's. Mind you this may have something to do with the Futureshop opening next door...

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Brad1138]

It's clearly cheaper for Dell to pay their super cut-rate DHL shipping than to give Wal-Mart a portion of the profit and to ship to their DCs

You are probably correct that it will cost them more paying Wal-marts cut and shipping, but the shipping isn't a direct comparison. Even with their high volume shipping discount it is still cheaper for them to ship 1000's of PCs on pallets to a Wal-mart distribution center then to 1000's of individual homes.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[macdaddy357]

Manufactured garbage and the redneck mall go together like a hand and glove. Dell will be right at home.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[lhbtubajon]

PUT BACK EVERYTHING they took away. This is a great idea, except that Dell no longer competes in the market they used to when all this stuff was great. That was an era when a PC was still a specialty item and commanded high margins. Now, if we have to pay more than $400 for one, we get pissy and want to look at Acer, or whatever other crap brand wants to sell us some parts in a box. Dell can't afford to build quality any more, because not enough people are willing to pay for it.

The PC industry (excluding Apple) has largely become a low-margin, high-volume commodity affair where low cost is king.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[value_added]

What I think he's aluding to, is not that Dell hands them a check to do business with them, but Wal-Mart is notorius for being cut-throat on getting the absolute best deal possible.

This deserves to be modded up. Not because it's particularly insightful, but because 9 out 10 Walmart shoppers have no frigging idea of how Walmart does business. Or how the manner in which they do business affects other businesses.

Put another way, Dell's margins will be very thin, but they should expect to make up for the losses in volume. Until, of course, Walmart renegotiates the deal. Lather, rinse, repeat. Why renegotiate if you stand to have your margins shaved even more? Because your company (Dell, in this case) now relies on the increased evenues from the huge increases in volumes to stay afloat. That, and Walmart will beat them down until they submit or go away.

Whether the approach works is another matter. Personally, I've always felt that Dell's consumer offerings belong in a Walmart.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[SCHecklerX]

Some companies have a different opinion

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[innocent_white_lamb]

I'm pretty sure I saw something on just exactly this point not too long ago regarding electric drills. Makita, perhaps? A pretty good brand of tool, anyway. The Walmart version looked identical to the hardware store version in every way, but it had plastic gears instead of the metal gears in the hardware store version.
 
Memo to self: Never buy tools at Walmart.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[nigelo]

Parent is Insightful? Is "box full of rocks" what HP/Compaq delivered?
They've been selling computers through WalMart for years...

Can you quote some sources for any of the "quite a few" times you've seen this two-level-of-quality happen, please?

It seems to me that Dell sells consumer products at a competitive price already, and this opens up more channels for them, with risk of dealing with more product returns, as other posters have noted, which is not their preferred way of doing warranty support.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Gospodin]

Put another way, Dell's margins will be very thin, but they should expect to make up for the losses in volume. Until, of course, Walmart renegotiates the deal. Lather, rinse, repeat. Why renegotiate if you stand to have your margins shaved even more? Because your company (Dell, in this case) now relies on the increased evenues from the huge increases in volumes to stay afloat.

First of all, you can't "make up for losses in volume". If you're losing money on each sale, selling in volume just means you're losing lots of money. You seem to recognize this since you do mention that Dell's margins will be "thin", not negative. If you're losing money on a sale, then your margin is negative, by definition.

Second of all, increased revenue is worthless if it's tied to an even greater increase in cost. The widgets that Mike's Widgets sells at Wal-Mart may be at a lower margin than the ones they sell at your local Mommenpop Shoppe, but they are positive margins or else Mike is going out of business soon. All Wal-Mart is doing is price discrimination, which is good for the consumer. It's often bad for the Mommenpop Shoppe, but let's not get into that right now since we're talking about how Wal-Mart's tactics affect producers, not rival retailers.

Now, there may be other reasons why selling widgets at Wal-Mart may be bad for Mike's Widgets - perceived quality, customer support, knowledgeable sales assistance, etc. But they aren't directly losing Mike money or else Mike would quite freely stop selling there. Some small companies have stopped selling through Wal-Mart and have thrived, so this is certainly possible and potentially profitable. Selling there is not a one-way ticket to bankruptcy, or even serfdom in Wal-Mart feudalism.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[cmacb]

"The Walmart version looked identical to the hardware store version in every way, but it had plastic gears instead of the metal gears in the hardware store version."

If you saw it on the Internet, I'm sure it's true but...

It's also "well known" for companies to sell large stores like Walmart, Frys, Compu USA (RIP), Circuit City, etc. unique model numbered items so that those stores can "price match" one another. You know: "Bring us the ad from a competing store with the same product and we will match their price." Followed by "Oh, I'm sorry sir, that ad is for the HP 37509Q783RT7 laptop computer, the one you are looking at here is the much better 37509Q783RT8." With computers instead of swapping out the metal gears for plastic ones, you get lower end graphics cards 8X instead of 24X burners etc.

Well, anyway, that's my apocryphal consumerism story, and I'm sticking to it.

Missing from the discussion above is the fact that in many rural areas the only store in town is a Walmart. I haven't had any particular quality problems with the one here. For business products they often have lower prices and more selection than the nearby Staples (but Staples does have a better selection of laptops). I can drive 30 miles to a Best Buy (the smallest in the country they tell me) and do even better as far as selection. But if the close-by Walmart has what I'm looking for I have no hesitation buying it there.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[teslatug]

That's true and the reason for that is not that those companies want to sell the cheaper products, it's that Wal-mart quotes them a price and won't sell at any higher price.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Red Flayer]

The difference being that the Walmart version is always inferior at some level.

This is because Walmart demands a lower price every year. Sometimes this can be met via economies of scale, but not after a few years. See Snapper mowers for an example of a business owner who said no.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[bladesjester]

I believe you misunderstood him. What he was saying is that, compared to the profit they were making per machine before, they have lost money even though they're still making a profit (say, for example, making only $1 on each unit instead of $2). However, they make up for the smaller profits per unit by the sheer number of sales.

By the way, Huffy (bicycle maker) went bankrupt because they kept trying to meet walmart's demands for constantly lower product cost.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Gospodin]

Hmm, maybe, although that's "losing money" in the same way that increasing the federal budget by only 3% instead of 5% is "cutting spending". You'd be making more money and more profits, in fact. As to Huffy, I certainly agree that one can go bankrupt by cutting prices to serve Wal-Mart; only that you have to be complicit in it (i.e., it may be a road to bankruptcy, just not a one-way road).

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Xabraxas]

Oh it's true that Wal-Mart forces companies to use inferior parts, at least indirectly by forcing companies to sell them product at a lower price than competitors. For computers that could mean cheap capacitors, cheap memory, and cheap power supplies, and that is just a recipe for disaster. The fact that Dell already sells cheap components makes me wonder just how bad these computers are going to be.

Re:Sold at Wal-Mart != low quality

[Xabraxas]

By the way Circuit City, Best Buy, and CompUSA all sell the T series Emachine computers, while WalMart sells the W series. That means that all the major electronic retailers, except WalMart can match prices on Emachine computers. The different model number on WalMart computers ensures that no one can beat their price. It seems the only one really playing the model number game is WalMart because they have a lot more leverage than any other retailer.

Super Walmart Today

[WED Fan]

Went to a Super Walmart today. Loved it. It reminded me of Itoyokado in Japan.

Their PC section is o.k., I'd like to see them expand it and actually compete with Best Buy for the market share of "department store" PC retailers.

So, while there I bought:

• A ladder
• Blank DVD-R spindle
• A new garden hose
• Sausages for the BBQ tonight
• The latest Linkin Park
• Socks
• Toothpaste
• and eyeglasses

Next, I'll be able to replace my aging desktop. Coolness, where else but in America and in a Walmart?

Re:Super Walmart Today

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm... the super Target (Target Greatland), and the super K-Marts, and well, pretty much any other extremely large department store.

Re:Super Walmart Today

[geekoid]

Kmart/Sears, Dozens of 'all in one stores' across the nation. I mean, I would need to pass 10 other all in one places to get to wal-mart. Very often Wal-mart has less value then the other places.

Lower cost doesn't equal better value. Since Wal-mart has said they want throw away items bought year after year, I will gladly pay 25% more for something I will be using for 5+ years.

Re:Super Walmart Today

[corbettw]

Went to a Super Walmart today. Loved it. It reminded me of Itoyokado in Japan.

...

Coolness, where else but in America and in a Walmart?

I dunno, Japan in an Itoyokado?

Re:Super Walmart Today

[lena_10326]

Super Walmart is a good store, however I've found that going to both Costco and ALDI are cheaper than Walmart especially if you wait for the Costco coupons and buy like 2 or 3 boxes of stuff. I have the executive Costco card ($100) and I've come out positive on the 2% rebate every year (usually $140 to $200) so throw in an effective free membership for me.

Re:Super Walmart Today

[dj_tla]

I'm curious about a few things... I'm from Canada, where I'm told our Walmarts are generally inferior; is there a difference between a Super Walmart and a normal Walmart?

Also, I used to frequent an Itoyokado for my weekly groceries, so I'll join in you in praising their variety of goods. But it seems to me like it exists for a different purpose than Walmart. Itoyokado offers convenience by being a one-stop-shop, but you pay for it (250 yen for an apple!?), Walmart endeavours to have the best price on pretty much everything they sell. It's like Itoyokado and a 100yen store in one! That's my opinion anyway. Plus, Itoyokado expands up while Walmart just widens ;)

Re:Super Walmart Today

[steveo777]

What Wal-Mart did you go to? Around here I'm won't venture into a Wal-Mart without extreme need. Even the brand new stores in the area look disgusting and dumpy a week after they open. I've been waiting for them to put up signs in front of the stores for employees and customers alike that say, "ABANDON HOPE ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE"

Re:Super Walmart Today

[HikingStick]

Wal-Mart will only be able to compete with Best Buy if the take more control of their product mix (especially in software) and not rely on third-parties to do it for them.

[I'll acknowledge that my knowledge of the underside of the Wally-beast is a few years old--they may have changed things today.]

Not that all staff at big box electronics stores are wizards, but even the least initiated there seem to know more than the typical associate at Wal-Mart. Then, watch their product cycles. Outdated products will sit on the shelf forever. When they try to sell them on clearance, their prices are so high that you can often buy newer technologies for the same price. Who wants to pay $140 for an 40 Gb external USB hard disk? That's something I saw just a few weeks ago--the same item, in the same store, at the same price, for almost a year. They seem to carry only one set of PC models until those are sold out. What you might buy new at Wal-Mart today might be technology 6-9 months past its production or introduction date. Plus, unless Wal-Mart is willing to segment its computer electronics from its other consumer electronics, the associates are going to end up spending their time with the people who can't operate the photo kiosks, opening the glass cases for MP3 players and game systems, and helping customers find the latest movie release in widescreen format.

Re:Super Walmart Today

[DocSavage64109]

Seconded, except I don't happen to like ALDI.

I like Costco above and beyond any other chain, as they have very high-quality foods, high-quality merchandise, and they even treat their employees well.

Their electronics department doesn't usually have the best prices, but I have had them give me full credit on a 1-year old off-brand plasma (which would flicker for 1-2 mins until warmed up) that I then used to get a 52" panasonic that has been flawless. I doubt I'd have had the same results anywhere else.

Also, that 2% off is kinda nice when buying gas lately...

Re:Super Walmart Today

[deanoaz]

I agree that the associates at other stores typically know more about the electronics and computer equipment they sell than the ones at WalMart.

Strangely, I have found that this becomes a point in favor of shopping at WalMart!

If I go to a chain electronics store and ask any question about something I am thinking about buying, the associate tries to talk me into buying something more expensive and gives me bullshit reasons why the item I selected isn't any good. I assume there must be some kind of incentive program for them to do this, combined with a class in buzzwords and sales-pychology.

At WalMart they know where the stuff is and they'll show it to you. Whatever you want to buy is fine with them. If you bring it back they'll take it back without any guff either.

Re:Super Walmart Today

[WED Fan]

(250 yen for an apple!?)

This, in the land of 600 yen Big Mac.

Super Walmart is like Itoyokado in that it has a grocery center, clothing, electronics, garden, banking, and other services.

I spent 6 years in Japan, some of it as the Far East Training Manager for a semicondutor equipment company, some as a student, some as a missionary. The only ones who have the shopping center perfected above the Japanese are the Koreans, with America falling to 3rd (including the Canadians, I did that on purpose ;)).

Walmart isn't inferior, its just that it sells the same name brands for less. Service does suffer, but I don't always need a fawning ever-present salesperson to annoy the holy-living-sh...excuse me, I was in an electronics store earlier and couldn't shake the salesman. Just give me an old retiree with a smile to say, "Welcome to Walmart" as I walk through the door. I'll find my own underwear, thank you.

Irrashai Mase

Re:Super Walmart Today

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude don't buy DVD-Rs. Buy a TVIX Box, you'll save lots of time & money.
tvixbox.com

Re:Super Walmart Today

[schwaang]

I think maybe you meant "Arbeit Macht Frei". At least that's how I felt about the only two times I've entered a Wal-Mart.

That said, I don't think it will hurt Dell's brand to sell there -- at any rate the injury will be less than that to Starbucks' brand for putting outlets inside Target stores.

Re:Super Walmart Today

[aslate]

Next, I'll be able to replace my aging desktop. Coolness, where else but in America and in a Walmart?

Tesco and the UK. The larger stores sell those things you're going on about, and Tesco have sold desktop PCs in the past, but they're more of a short-term offer based thing, they don't sell PCs in general though.

Re:Super Walmart Today

[steveo777]

Right, but I like going to Target. Even the 'ghetto' Targets in the area aren't bad. They're consistently clean and they hire competent workers. Starbucks is a chain, so I'm don't think their image is harmed by having a presence in Target stores. Dell used to be known for a quality product, and now I think that image will significantly diminish. It's obvious that Dell is going with Wal-Mart retailers due to the massive exposure. But if they went with a retail presence in Target, or even Sears, they would preserve some of that image. There's already web kiosks in every mall around town...

Re:Super Walmart Today

[schwaang]

Exactly, that's why Target ate K-mart's lunch and Wal-mart is worried about them too. It's not just the cleanliness, it's bringing a little design and pizazz into the cheap crap from China. Cheap but also kinda nice is Target's successful MO.

But Starbucks is meant to be more of a premium experience rather than a McDonalds experience. Espresso coffee houses have always had elite-ish associations, either the wealthy travelled-in-Europe kind or the over-educated hippy kind. Target, or any big-box chain, will always represent the opposite of that.

Whereas Dell has always covered the whole spectrum, selling plenty of $500 systems and flooding TV with those "Dude" ads. Selling their low-end stuff in Wal-Mart is totally consistent with that approach, to my sensibility. When I see a Panasonic TV in a store like Wal-Mart it doesn't change my opinion of Panasonic.

A major change in emphasis

[mcrbids]

Dell got its name by selling direct. Dell == Direct. After spending 20 years proving to everybody that "direct is better and cheaper", them selling direct thru a major distributor like Wally World is a major, major change in their product placement and emphasis.

They must be REALLY HURTING to go for a deal like this! For premium brands, it seems like selling thru Wal-Mart is the kiss of death. You could almost say it's like a TV show "jumping the shark" - either your company just sells cruddy products thru Wal-Mart or you have a flagging premium brand and you just want to cash in on what's left of your good name.

And, in case you have no idea what I'm talking about, take a look at The Wal-Mart You Don't Know...

Re:A major change in emphasis

[tcopeland]

> Dell got its name by selling direct. Dell == Direct.
> After spending 20 years proving to everybody that "direct is better and cheaper",
> them selling direct thru a major distributor like Wally World is a
> major, major change in their product placement and emphasis.

Yup, but in this CBC article they say they know that most of their customers will still buy direct. Note that the Ubuntu thing is mentioned in the same article, but I don't see a mention of any overlap there.

Re:A major change in emphasis

[_KiTA_]

Except that Dell has sold through 3rd parties before. They're just adding one more. Yes, this is a bit of a shift in strategy. But I seriously doubt that even Walmart is big enough to bring down Dell's direct business model.

Will Dell sell a lot of machines through Walmart? Who can say? Will Dell get their name out there right next to HP, bringing their online and phone stores business that they might not have gotten before? You bet.

I think that's the ultimate goal here. If the individual units sell at Walmart is irrelevant -- this is one giant free advertising campaign.

Re:A major change in emphasis

[HikingStick]

If they're not really hurting now, they may soon be...

Wal-Mart is known for brutally squeezing its suppliers for every possible reduction--year after year. Dell may only see a very small portion of its business through Wal-Mart, but it will become increasingly less profitable as they years go by.

While I understand the appeal of selling through Wal-Marts network of stores, I wonder if Dell ever considered that consumers who are just plain tired of Wal-Mart (I'm one of them--I think the whole place started to fail after Sam Walton died) and have a negative perception of the store will somehow carry over that opinion to their products. "It is a Dell, but Wal-Mart is selling it.--Ah, no thanks, I think I'll go to Best Buy..."

Re:A major change in emphasis

[businessnerd]

Wal-Mart is known for brutally squeezing its suppliers for every possible reduction--year after year.

This is all too true, and I despise Wal-Mart for it, but this is also Dell we're talking about. Dell has done just as much for lean production and supply networks as Wal-Mart. The reason Dell can sell so cheaply is not just because of their direct model, it's because they also have the clout to put demands on their suppliers. For instance, Dell requires that suppliers have a warehouse within a certain radius of their assembly plant. I have no doubts that if anyone can meet Wal-Mart's demands it's Dell. Also, keep in mind that this is the computer/electronics industry, so price drops are a given, even without Wal-Mart's influence. As the article linked in the grandparent's post, one way to stay alive when dealing with Wal-Mart is to constantly have fresh products so that Wal-Mart doesn't have historical data or competitor retail pricing to dictate what the price should be. Everything Dell makes is obsolete by the time it gets to the customer anyway, so no problem in keeping the product fresh. HP and Dell may end up priced identically on the Wal-Mart shelves, but that's ok, they can compete on quality and features instead.

Daddy likes...

[phildawg]

Yea, I'm glad somebody will have the opportunity of taking on Best Buy. I mean outside of Best Buy, are there really any PC retailers worth mentioning? It almost seems like you either buy your PC over the internet or from Best Buy... Now you can buy it from Wal-mart or Sam's Club. And if this works out well, you can probably seem some configure to order kiosks placed into these stores as well to add a better variety. Maybe some of you guys like Best Buy more than Wal-mart... But I don't think you understand just how evil Best Buy is on the actual level... Have you ever received Best Buy coupon's in the mail? Have you received them lately? If you haven't received them lately or you find your Best Buy credit account closed and told it's because you haven't purchased anything in a while.... realize these are all roadblocks used to slow move you away from using Best Buy because they have data mined you and determined you are not at the profit level they desire, no coupons for you!

Re:Daddy likes...

[Jerry Rivers]

"I mean outside of Best Buy, are there really any PC retailers worth mentioning?"

Apple?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Store_(retail)

Re:Daddy likes...

[Sciros]

Best Buy is so evil they stopped sending me coupons! How on earth is lack of "3-day window" coupons a "roadblock to move me away" from Best Buy? That makes NO SENSE :-| No company is going to try and lure customers away, haha.

Re:Daddy likes...

[interval1066]

CompUSA? On the west coast: Fry's Electronics? I think Radio Shack still sells pcs of one type or another. Probably missing a chain or two. Then there's the plethora of independents who are willing to put together a rig with off the shelf parts for you. Lastly there's me; the it guy who does the same, but I build 'em and get exactly what I want in a rig. So I could care less how many retail outlets are out there selling consumer pcs.

Re:Daddy likes...

[phildawg]

A good friend of mine own's an Apple store... An avg Best Buy stores does approximately 25-30k revenue per day in their PC department. During Christmas and drive times this number jumps up to 125k-200k per day. I know it sounds ridiculous, but those who aren't in the know... just don't know... Oh and my friends Apple Store avg's about 2-5k per day, and close 15k during Christmas and drive times. That's what I mean... when all PC retailers in a general area don't even equal up to the BBY's sales, they just isn't competition.

Re:Daddy likes...

[phildawg]

As I said, you don't get the coupon's =) If you like this is well-documented by the Wall Street Journal. I don't have the link handy, but Best Buy is the first and only major retailer to actively push for a particular customer base and has many tactics to discourage a certain segment of their base. Like did you know how they knew to not send you the coupons? Because of two things. They data mine your BBY credit card account and the reward zone. Reward zone is the most awesome thing to come along for Best Buy and it completely throws customers for a loop. You would think it's to encourage you to shop there more... but it's entire purpose (you would have to be on the manager level or higher to know this) was to data mine customers and actively target customers who are NOT profitable. With the Best Buy database, if you have shopped there a few times, I could probably tell you everywhere you have lived for the past 10-15 years plus I can also show you a lot of things regarding your lifestyle. The Best Buy database is designed to link and relink customers as much as possible. People move, get new addresses and stuff, but we data mine so many outside sources, that we are able to link you as the John Doe piss ass customer from Denver to the John Doe who just moved to Salt Lake City. I guess I shouldn't be disclosing this sort of information... but I love to secretly tell people how bad we are fookin them in the @$$ =) It's one of our thrills. Have a nice day!

Re:Daddy likes...

[Sciros]

Well, I actually get the coupons and yeah I know they data mine and all that... but I don't understand why anyone would want to *discourage* ANY customers. Isn't that just essentially throwing away some sales?

Re:Daddy likes...

[phildawg]

Well to be frank with you, the point is to have the cream of the crop customers. On a more basic level we could maybe look at a luxury car dealership. If you don't come in dressed to the nine's, their not going to help you because they don't want to waste their time, in their opinion. But what this really gets as is Best Buy has 2 very high rankings when they look at their business, both are equal in their eyes, Revenue and Profit Margin. Having a high revenue is of no desire if you have a low profit margin. What the ideal goal for any business is to make the most profit they can on the least investment. The only time you will see really big doorbuster type savings are going to be Black Friday (day after thanksgiving sales) and that is ONLY because that metric is very important. Wall Street views the retailer who grabs the highest revenue amount while controlling their loses (mean it's okay to lose a little bit of money on Black Friday) will generally win the holiday season... So they have killer Black Friday Ads to draw in the people which sell out in the first few hours but they will go on to generate another 60-70% of the day's revenues beyond those huge lose leaders. Anyways, this gets long and complicated as you can see. Let me try and find the wall street article: http://www.pandecta.com/fire-bad-customers.html http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_arc hive/2006/04/03/8373034/ The problem with finding data on the centricity push now is that it worked. We have elminated a lot of the bad customers and Best Buy has become more profitable. Basically it's been spinned as a good thing because it is for them as a company =)

Re:Daddy likes...

[MoxFulder]

I like CompUSA much better than BB. In my hometown of East Lansing, MI, there are Best Buy, Circuit City, and CompUSA.

Best Buy is huge and flashy, often crowded, always overpriced for small things like cables and flash drives and blank CDs. And its employees are annoying and ignorant. Product selection at Circuit City isn't as good as Best Buy, but they had very good prices on music CDs, so sometimes I would go there.

By comparison, CompUSA is *much* more focused on computers as opposed to all other digital electronics. They have a great selection and very good prices. They carry store brands of blank CDs and jump drives, and they have a lot of sales to get you in the door.

Re:Daddy likes...

[Sciros]

Ok, I see. I read those articles and now get what you mean. Well, hey, as long as it's been working there's not much to say :-)

Re:Daddy likes...

[phildawg]

It would be foolish for me to say that sales figures in my region represent your own, but I do agree with you. But my point is that in my region, our CompUSA has a daily budget of around 15-20k... where as the budget for Best Buy is more around 100-125k for the store and 25k-35k for the PC department. Also I should note that CompUSA also has a wide variety of items too, so that dilutes their actual PC revenue, more in line with 8-14k for a day... so in my area, all other retailers add up to about what Best Buy generates, which is why, and even Best Buy discounts their competition as no serious threat and we compete against other Best Buy stores for a challenge.

Re:Daddy likes...

[Anonymous Coward]

Your Enter key appears to be broken.

I believe you might be able to buy a new keyboard at Best Buy.

Bye dell

[YrWrstNtmr]

There goes the last shred of any goodness Dell had left.

1. They will have to compete (on price) with the Walmart eMachines
2. Corporate sales will suffer. "We use the same equipment you can get at Walmart!"
3. The clueless will badmouth Dell & walmart for selling them a broken PC. We all know it was THEM that couldn't use it, but that's what the perception will be.

Maybe they can make it work. I don't see it as an up for them, though.

Better idea than what Gateway tried.

[Shivetya]

I mean, who could have thought that having retail stores without immediate delivery was a good idea?

I disagree with what will happen to the perception of Dell's brand, they are big enough to withstand any ills that people might associate with Wal-Mart. Hell I am many others shop at Wal-Mart simply because of price. If low price is the story their selling its not something to be ashamed of. Plus Dell could be looking long term, get them into a lower end system through Wal-Mart and upsell them at a later date.

If Apple can go into Best Buy and survive the perception that many people of Best Buy sure Dell can handle anything from being associated with Wal-Mart

"more and new ways to buy our products"

[semiotec]

I always wanted to buy a computer from the back of a stolen van in a dark alley, but I've been a bit worried about getting robbed in such situations. Do you think Dell can cater to my needs here?

Because...

[DriveDog]

...we all love shopping at Wal-Mart so much. New Dell-Mart product lines to include the Double-Wide (2.67:1 screen aspect ratio), the RFD (includes special modem suitable for use on party lines and terminals for jumper cable power connections), Distressed (case already has buckshot pellet holes), and of course the American Traditions (deep woods camo case with storage for ammo and lures).

SIS working with Dell

[Brit_in_the_USA]

This announcement seems to go hand in hand with this story: "Dell pulls SIS into cheapo PC deal " http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39 807

For those who don't follow links here is an extract:

TAIWANESE CHIPSET FIRM, SIS said it was working with big US shop Dell, to build a low-cost PC. SIS said its SiSM661GX chip set would form the heart of Dell's EC280 which is aimed at first-time PC buyers.

Re:SIS working with Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they coming also, perhaps, with the ODPC (One Dell per Child)? Now that would move the market down to cheap computers (Although wouldn't make Negroponte very happy).

Re:SIS working with Dell

[compro01]

SiS really isn't that bad anymore.

i remember the days when they were the bane of computing, but they seem to have mended their ways now and are as stable as anything else around, though not quite as good in the performance department, and integrated graphics suck as always, but since they're still shooting for budget work, that isn't a huge issue.

Re:SIS working with Dell

[evilviper]

That's a great link...

SIS said the machine is estimated consume 65Watts per minute.

GOOD GOD! 65W per minute! That can only mean 3,900 watts per hour.

Eh?

[niceone]

selling two of its Dimension desktop computers in in about 3,000 Wal-Marts

Who the hell is going to want to buy 1/1500th of a computer?

Re: Eh?

[Aqua_boy17]

Well, that's what I feel like I have now with Vista installed.

Mostly agree, but:

[RealProgrammer]

Wal-Mart is ubiquitous. The other places are chumps by comparison. Wal-Mart has more upside. If the deal works, as you say, Dell could sell a lot of PCs.

Dell doesn't need the retailer to add value with service and support, since they do that themselves.

Dell has traditionally tailored their manufacturing to order. Now they get to see how many identical computers they can assemble and ship, by filling up a Wal-Mart warehouse or three.

That being the case, there may not be the kind of quality issues you hint at. Wal-Mart customers won't say, "Hey, I ordered four gigs of RAM, and all I got was one!" They'll just be buying what's in the box. So a whole class of initial quality problems is eliminated.

Re:Mostly agree, but:

[Captain Splendid]

Now they get to see how many identical computers they can assemble and ship, by filling up a Wal-Mart warehouse or three.

Somebody please mod parent up, it's the first interesting speculation I've read in this thread as to why Dell is doing this. Mind you, they probably already know exactly what that number is (what? another vanilla order? Why doesn't anybody want a custom box, whaaa!).

Fast

[Anonymous Coward]

I must say that I'm impressed with the relatively short time span from announcements to implementations at Dell. Of course, it's very likely that lots of work had been done before someone was told to inform the press, but it's interesting nonetheless, compared to the constant procrastinating going on in other computer businesses. :)

(Please correct any grammar mistakes there may be, if you have the time.)

Heeding the tale of Snapper

[kherr]

Interesting article about Snapper leaving Wal-Mart, because the company saw Wal-Mart pushing them to continually lower prices and supplying Wal-Mart also meant issues with huge inventory. Dell seems to be making a crazy (or desperate) decision here, since one of their strengths was always their low inventory overhead. It's like a complete about-face for the company.

Re:Heeding the tale of Snapper

[maxume]

Snapper left because they sold high quality lawnmowers and Walmart was pushing them to put out a cheaper line. Dell doesn't sell particularly high quality computers, so the comparison breaks down pretty quickly.

Re:Heeding the tale of Snapper

[Jason Earl]

And the power and allure of Wal-Mart is such that even Jim Wier, the man who said no to Wal-Mart, a man who knows all the reasons why that was the right decision, has slivers of doubt.

"I could go to my grave, and my tombstone could say, 'Here lies the dumbest CEO ever to live. He chose not to sell to Wal-Mart.' "

It is a little early to declare victory for Snapper. Lawn mowers are not luxury automobiles no matter how fiery red they may be painted. Currently Snapper's plan hinge on the viability of thousands of independent dealerships all of which face the same pressure that have killed small independent hardware and toy stores. These days when people go to buy a lawnmower they don't go to the "lawnmower store" they go to Lowe's or Home Depot or Walmart.

I'm with you.

[PHAEDRU5]

In my Atlanta neighborhood, we've got a new Wal Mart where Chamblee-Tucker T's at Peachtree Industrial. It's a true one-stop for just about anything you could want, from food to building supplies. I sometimes go just to walk the aisles, see all teh stuff, and marvel at the prices.

Hell Freezes Over

[WED Fan]

Wow, I posted this today and got modded up. I figured writing something positive about shopping at Walmart would get all sorts of negative mods on /.

Next you know, praising Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer will boost your karma.

Give Ben Curtis His Old Job Back...

[LEX LETHAL]

...and cue the new Dell catchphrase:

"Dude, you're getting our Everyday Low Price."

First they offshored the help desk,

[oDDmON oUT]

then the QC went to hell in a hand basket, now they are partnering with the single most malefic retail entity on the planet.

So the next commercial should say "Dude! Why the hell get a Dell?"

Parent is not a Troll

[HikingStick]

BTW--the parent post is not a troll. I think it's a valid point that should have been left alone or flagged "interesting" or "insightful." My first thoughts were of "Dell==direct" too.

Great insight

[traindirector]

No offense, but you are missing something quite subtle yet extremely profound.

Your response was exactly what I was asking for - of course no offense.

Dell is embracing what it sees as the shape of things to come for computers, which is that most people will buy cheap ones that are disposable. As this is becoming more and more the norm, selling these low-level products direct isn't the best way to go. Who's going to mail order a $150 TV? People in the market for something like this go to Wal-Mart.

Like you said, it's also a very telling statement about Dell's continuing philosophy concerning the (low) quality level PC makers should target to stay in the market.

NASCAR + Linux + Dell + Wal-Mart

[dorath]

So there is going to be a NASCAR sporting Linux, Dell is shipping Linux, and Wal-Mart is selling Dells [this.article].

There are NASCAR fans who base their purchasing decisions soley on what logos are sported by their favorite NASCAR driver. If they see that penguin on the car, then see that penguin on a Dell at Wal-Mart, they'll take that penguin over the Dell with Windows.

Good? Bad? I dunno.

Re:NASCAR + Linux + Dell + Wal-Mart

[Astadar]

Tux500 is for the Indianapolis 500, an Indy Racing League event, not NASCAR. The Allstate 400 is the NASCAR event at the Brickyard.

I can see it now

[Dachannien]

Customer: How much memory comes with this model, and can I upgrade that?
Assistant Manager: Uhhh... we have chocolate, strawberry, and vanilla.

linux

[zenray]

If Dell really supported Linux they should sell them at Wal-Mart also. I've yet to see any advertising from Dell about the new Linux systems for sale. Check out http://linux.dell.com/

That does it. I'm through with Dell

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't buy one unless I can get a "3" dell. I might settle for an "8" if I have to.

I wonder how bad Wal-Mart bent them over?

[tacokill]

Wal-mart = crap.

It is well known fact that Wal-mart consistently asks manufacturer's to create product lines specifically for Wal-mart. Usually, these lines are of lesser quality (due to price) than the manufacturer's original lines. Think re-badged or OEM product sold primarily on price alone. Over time, the brand dilutes and eventually, many manufacturer's find themselves in a worse position than if they had never done business with Wal-mart in the first place.

Snapper mowers said no. That's just one example of many.

I wonder how bad Wal-mart bent Dell over on this one?

Re:I wonder how bad Wal-Mart bent them over?

[Avatar8]

Exactly right, and how badly is Dell going to compromise their already suffering quality to meet the price structure forced onto them by Wal-Mart?

I realized Wal-Mart is crap when someone pointed out the ballpoint pens. You know why pens are cheaper at Wal-Mart than they are at an office supply? Look at the clear ones and check how much ink is in them. Last I checked, pens sold at Wal-Mart have about half as much ink as those sold elsewhere. Extrapolate this to any other product. Clothes at Wal-Mart are typically one-offs that did not meet quality standards to be sold in quality retail outlets most often because the size is off. ALWAYS try on any piece of clothing at Wal-Mart before you buy it; do not trust the size label. Bottled water sold at Wal-mart uses cheaper plastic bottles which can easily crush as soon as you remove the cap resulting in a gush of water all over yourself or someone else.

I've had enough difficulty with Dell in the past. Their method of getting your money, waiting a week or two until component prices drop then buying bulk, sometimes inferior brands while your purchase steadily decreases in value irks me to no end. Who knows how low they'll stoop to meet the minimum requirements of Wal-mart?

Both companies treat their employees poorly and treat their customers only slightly better.

When I want to buy something for the least amount of money knowing that I have no expectations of the product lasting or providing me with 100% satisfaction, I shop at Wal-mart. When I recommend someone buy a computer knowing they'll throw it out in 18 months due to failure and poor customer service, I'll send them to Dell... I mean Wal-mart.

That man & his kid at the auction house in Jid

[Anonymous Coward]

> Who the hell is going to want to buy 1/1500th of a computer?

The same guy who buys 1/1200th of an airship, the imp robot, and that damn chocobo every single time his kid gets excited?

At least the bastard didn't take my Golem or Zoneseek magicite by bidding 1 million gold.

Surprise Surprise

[DrewfusMaximus]

Nothing new, I've known about this for two weeks. Maybe I should find some contact somewhere and start leaking market information.

Done Before

[kiwimade]

Dell have sold PCs in our (NZ) Walmart-esqe chain "The Warehouse" before, at least 4 years ago.

Re:Done Before

[grolschie]

Exactly. I was going to say the same thing. However, because we don't live in the USA, this is meaningless. :-)

Re: Here's hoping...

[Clockworkalien]

I just hope they have the Big Gulp drink holder built into the monitor.

It wont hurt the brand

[Timmy D Programmer]

Do you think your "Duracel" battery won't last as long of Wal-Mart sells it? Do Hershey bars bought at a discount taste any different? Nope.

Show me the attack model so I can shoot it down

[tepples]

Yes who doesn't want to use their credit card at a public library? Allen County Public Library takes cards for overdue fine payments. In the case of someone who uses a public library computer to access Dell's SSL site to buy a computer, are you concerned that an attacker might intercept the credit card number? If so, what approaches would the attacker use?

Re:Show me the attack model so I can shoot it down

[KWTm]

In the case of someone who uses a public library computer to access Dell's SSL site to buy a computer, are you concerned that an attacker might intercept the credit card number? If so, what approaches would the attacker use?

I'll give it a try.

Key logger?

Re:Show me the attack model so I can shoot it down

[tepples]

[Shopping for a computer by visiting an online store using a public library computer is unsafe because of a possible] Key logger?

It should be possible to confuse a key logger. Type a bunch of garbage digits mixed in with the credit card number, use the mouse to click after the garbage digits, and press backspace. For further obfuscation, use the mouse to click back and forth among fields likely to contain a lot of digits, such as the credit card number, expiration date, and signature panel number.

Besides, how did the attacker even get a key logger onto a computer owned by a library? Let's analyze that part of the attack model too.

Re:Show me the attack model so I can shoot it down

[KWTm]

Oooh, this is fun!

[Shopping for a computer by visiting an online store using a public library computer is unsafe because of a possible] Key logger?

It should be possible to confuse a key logger. Type a bunch of garbage digits mixed in with the credit card number, use the mouse to click after the garbage digits, and press backspace. For further obfuscation, use the mouse to click back and forth among fields likely to contain a lot of digits, such as the credit card number, expiration date, and signature panel number.

While what you say is true, remember that we were referring to someone ordering his/her first computer online. Such a person would not be familiar with such obfuscation techniques. Even for someone familiar with computers, if s/he knows enough to use these keylogger-confusion schemes, s/he would likely just skip the hassle and order from home.

Your argument would be valid for a geek who, for whatever reason, couldn't do it from home (e.g. computer broke down, needs to order new one). Even then, wouldn't it be faster to order it over the phone?

Besides, how did the attacker even get a key logger onto a computer owned by a library? Let's analyze that part of the attack model too.

I did my homework on this one, so here's your answer:

The librarian.

Unfettered access to the computer after hours, trusted by the staff --hey, for someone unscrupulous, it would be pretty profitable to download some keylogger off the net and install it.

If the librarian is not computer savvy, then maybe it's someone the librarian trusts. Maybe the librarian's nephew, who says, "Hey, Auntie, I can help you fix up the computer to make it more organized and easier to use." And then after half an hour of installing a keylogger (while the librarian busies herself reshelving books), the nephew turns on the Bigger Fonts option and says, "Look, now your elderly library patrons can read more easily." The librarian says, "Such a smart boy!" and the nephew starts harvesting passwords and social security numbers.

Or it could even be just some guy who can install a keylogger given enough time, say two hours. But the library only allows patrons to use the computers for fifteen minutes. But this really pitiable young fellow, who shows up to volunteer at the library and really helps out, says, "I need the computer for two hours to compose my resume and look for a job. Please please please??" and the librarian makes an exception. You know computers are defenseless against someone with physical access to the machine. If the chassis is locked down and there's no bootable CD-ROM drive in the computer, the evil hacker reboots into BIOS and sets the computer to boot first from the USB port, then unplugs the USB mouse and plugs in his USB flash drive with STD-Knoppix or something, installs the MS Windows rootkit, puts all the hardware back the way it was, and then reboots the computer, and everything looks fine, except that suddenly files starting with $SYS$ are suddenly invisible.

Way too many points of attack. While you're right that a skilled geek could form a Tunnel of Pretty Good Security against this, I'd rather just use my own computer.

Like that Dellbuntu notebook that I'm drooling over.

Walmart not new to Dell

[CharlieHedlin]

In the early 90's they sold through Sam's Club. Those who worked tech support back then and the years shortly after will be able to attest to the difference in customer profiles.

Dell narrowed their target customer at that time and didn't do any TV advertising or retail sales. They have obviously widened that target a lot in recent years.

It's official

[webheaded]

Dell has finally hit rock bottom. I thought they were already there when their PCs were some of the worst PCs on the market and their tech support was attrocious, but now they are going to sell PCs at Walmart.

They had such promise when they first started out and now look where they are. Walmart. Oh well, I build all my own computers anyway. I'll just start telling people to buy Compaq, HP, or like...Alienware or something. Hell, if they want to, I'd build computers for my friends. :p

Re:It's official

[Mizled]

I'll just start telling people to buy Compaq, HP, or like...Alienware or something.

You do realize that Dell owns Alienware right? Alienware = Overpriced Dell
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1941376,00.as p

Just tell them to get a Commodore...you can't really beat two Nvidia 8800GTX cards in SLI mode. :)
http://www.commodoregaming.com/pcshop/Home.aspx

Dell sold thru Wally before and failed

[radicimo]

I worked in tech support for Dell in 1994. At that time they were digging themselves out of the hole that they dug by selling PCs through Wal-Mart. The strategy, AFAIK, was a complete failure. It deluged their technical support organization with the most basic computer questions. Everybody that I spoke with at the company proclaimed it an unmitigated disaster. Dell couldn't get out of the arrangment fast enough. Not sure why this is new or news. Perhaps their Indian tech support will be better equipped to handle the calls this go-round, but I doubt it.

June 7, 1993

Re: Here's hoping...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, it's built into the CPU enclosure, right above the 3 1/4" drive bay.

I see one MAJOR need this does meet - ZERO wait

[Anonymous Coward]

I see this all the time as a consultant , business X will not spend money to have a machine or two sitting around for when one breaks - a simple "internet/word" workstation blows and their choices at that time are (if its old and out of warranty)

A - Wait 3-5 days minimum for a new Dell or

B - But another brand from CompUSA or BB

This allows a business to go down the street and within an hour have an old dimension/Optiplex replaced immediately - much less downtime

Arrogant

[DerekLyons]

I dislike Dell, and when people ask me why I say, "I find their tier two and three support to be unbearable, and I hate their proprietary hardware, and their tendency to skimp on things like montherboards." It makes people's eyes glaze over, and in their minds, they file it away under "Nerd crap that doesn't apply to me."

Of course they think it's nerd crap - because you talk down to them in a language they don't understand. Would it be so hard to say "their support sucks, parts are hard to get and expensive, and the parts are cheap crap to start with"?

Nothing to see here-move along.

[aurispector]

Dell sold PC's through Staples back in the mid 90's. I still have a Dell 486 gathering dust in my basement-got it at Staples (at a massive discount as I worked there at the time). AFAIK dealing with the backwash of returned & unsold products killed the deal. Dunno if they learned anything from the experience; selling through Staples took control of the customer's experience away from Dell.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Re:Nothing to see here-move along.

[wiredlogic]

Dell also sold briefly through Wal-mart and Sam's Club in the mid-90's. Back then they were still primarily geared toward their build-to-order production line and couldn't make the mass production fit with Wal-mart's demand for razor edge margins.

Ever been to Europe?

[Anonymous Coward]

France in particular has amazing stores, especially for food and alcohol. Kills anything I've seen in North America. As for Asia I couldn't tell I've been on every continent except that one. Long live the French hypermarché!

How is this news?

[BlackSmithNZ]

Dell have been selling low-end desktops and laptops at 'The Warehouse' (New Zealand's version of Walmart) big box stores for years. Maybe just a trial run for Dell boxes through Walmart, but makes sense when you look at the grandmother market - they want to see the box & put one in the trolley to buy; ringing up a customer support person asking talking to there geek grandson and then trying to put in an order for a "Black Modem thingy with 80 mega whatits of floppys and 1 pentiums of RAM" must be scary for some.

Sold by Dell == Low Quality, too.

[Futurepower(R)]

You say Walmart is selling low quality versions of products, and hiding that fact.

The problem I have with that is that Dell is a very low-quality supplier, too. It isn't just Walmart that may lower the value of the Dell trademark, Dell has done that itself.

My experience with Dell is that technical support is extremely abusive. See, for example: May 10, 2007, College Kid Learns Lesson About Dell's Warranty.

My experience with Dell is that if you give Dell an email address you will get spammed forever. There is a link to unsubscribe, but it doesn't work.

What happened to Ed Foster's Gripelog? It's been offline for perhaps a week. ("Phone in your tech gripes toll-free: 888-875-7916.")

Re:hmm

[HeroreV]

Wal-Mart Dells with a user-friendly Linux distro, of course. If every Wal-Mart was selling decent cheap PCs with Ubuntu pre-installed, Linux usage would rise immensely. It would definitely be by far the biggest boost to Linux the world has ever seen.

If such a deal were to happen, it could easily be the tipping point that leads to Linux overtaking Windows.