Congress Considers Forcing Travel Registration

macduffman writes "Congress and the Department of Homeland Security are considering several new visa restrictions, including forcing some foreign travelers to register their travel plans online 48 hours in advance. Business advocacy groups are worried about both foreign relations and the economic impact of such legislation, while privacy concerns see this as another possible 'in' for identity thieves. From the article: 'Along with online registration, the updated program would require new and existing member countries to improve data-sharing; more rigorously report lost and stolen passports (not just blank passports); and guarantee they will repatriate nationals if those people are ordered out of the United States. "It's really a 21st-century model," said James Carafano, a Heritage Foundation analyst who specializes in homeland security. "It'll all be done electronically and biometrically. And it really doesn't compromise your privacy."'"

Comments

"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[HTH NE1]

"It's really a 21st-century model," said James Carafano, a Heritage Foundation analyst who specializes in homeland security.

It's really a 21st-century police state.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[chris_mahan]

Fascism for the 21st century.

My grandfather was in a Nazi labor camp (came back thankfully).

America is not going in the right direction, and I think the next President had better grow some major cojones and disbands the Department of Father\WHomeland Security. The current president is hopelessly lost.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the next President had better grow some major cojones and disbands the Department of Father\WHomeland Security.

I think you mean the Ministry for State Security (google for what the initials would be in Russian).

Posting AC for the obvious reason.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[taoman1]

What else could we expect from a right-wing think tank.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Original Replica]

But it's only being applied to foreigners, so it will be ok with enough short sighted fools to get pushed through before there is any real thought or debate on the issue. Then it will be extended to include Americains who are considered "threats". Then the definition of who consistutes a "threat" will be expanded. Then it will include everyone, but likely be automated, via the purchase of your plane tickets being automatically entered into a Homeland Security tracking database.

I wish this all sounded more paranoid than probable.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[jd]

Model: Idealistic, simplified representation of something that exists. Usually static and non-functional, hence the phrase "working model" to denote a model that works. As applied to people, usually refers to individuals who are unhealthy/near-death and plasticized for the purpose of persuading the extremely rich to buy something other than what is shown.

I think the word apples extremely well to this piece of legislative insanity. Hell, virtually every civilization that has ever existed has rapidly discovered that freedom of movement by others (especially traders) is paramount for survival, with many passing laws prohibiting their governments from ever impeding such travel. It's good to know that the Department of Homeland Security is merely 5,000 years behind the times. It gives us a means of estimating when they will become civilized themselves.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to the 21st century. War is Peace. Slavery is Freedom. Paranoia is Sanity.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[ScrewMaster]

Yes, but fortunately beer and food are still beer and food.

If they try to change that they'll have an instant revolution on their hands.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Chris Burke]

It's really a 21st-century police state.

Yeah, and like most police state tactics, it completely fails to address the actual problem they claim they are solving. Which is ultimately good for them, because the continuation of the problem justifies them taking even more power (that also won't solve the problem).

In case anyone dosen't remember, all of the 9/11 hijackers travelled with valid ID.

So now the hijackers will register their names two days in advance. BFD. They aren't going to use anyone on our known list of terrorists, they aren't going to use anyone who our pointless profiling picks up. They will be completely legal, record-free, and unknown to any law enforcement or intelligence agency. They will walk right through the security checkpoint, grumbling just as loud as the guy behind them about the inconvenience.

This shit is useful for catching Cat Stevens, providing a false sense of security, more power to the police state, and not a damn thing else.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[UdoKeir]

I don't know why they don't just electronically tag everybody.

Then if they see a bunch of people congregating together without permission from the government, they can round them up and send them away for enhanced interrogation. I mean, if you're trying to hide something, and meeting other people, you're probably a terrorist.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[plover]

Here's the real difference.

"Papiere, bitte" has become "Deine Ausweiskarte ablichten, bitte" (thanks, Google Translate!)

Only this time it'll be spoken in English.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[kmac06]

That comment's not insightful at all. Regardless of how poor these watch lists may be implemented, some real terrorist threats will make their way on them. And those people will then be prevented from legally traveling without the government knowing about it. Now of course the privacy issues (not to mention the freedom issues--what if a relative dies/is dying and I need to leave NOW) make this a bad idea, and of course not every potential terrorist will be on the watch list, but that doesn't mean this would be completely ineffective.

This shit is useful for catching Cat Stevens, providing a false sense of security, more power to the police state, and not a damn thing else.

For the most part, I agree with you. Of course this is why treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue is not a good idea.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong, it's a remarkably cunning policy!

See, if you p*ss off foreign tourists and businessmen enough, soon enough the only people wanting to travel to the US will be terrorists and americans coming back from a few weeks of freedom. So all you have to do is round up all the inbounds who don't have a US passport and send them straight to gitmo. Easy! Genius!

More seriously, this wouldn't make a shred of difference to me, as I had already decided to not go to the US for any reason. Just spent 10 grand on a holiday in NZ instead (and made sure I was travelling via Hong Kong, not LAX). Call me back when the wusses who've been in charge since 9/11 and their soviet laws are given the boot.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why everyone needs to vote Ron Paul in the 2008 presidential elections! He WILL NOT tolerate the invasion of innocent peoples' privacy in such a manner.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[mormop]

"It's really a 21st-century police state."

It's really a 21st century way of fucking your own tourist industry. Let's see, I can take a holiday in Spain, Italy wherever or I can submit all my personal information to a foreign government and apply in writing two days before departure risking deportation if the customs guy doesn't like my face. Tough choice......

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Shag]

Regardless of how poor these watch lists may be implemented, some real terrorist threats will make their way on them. Fascinating bit of logic you've got, there. Let me generalize it a bit:

Any sufficiently long random string eventually includes the name of a terrorist.

If you give a bunch of monkeys typewriters, sooner or later they'll type "Osama bin Laden."

Now, maybe you can argue that the methodology being used to create and implement these lists is superior to that of giving typewriters to monkeys... or then again, maybe you can't.

Personally, I don't look forward to what I expect will be the eventual inevitable expansion of this program to include US citizens. I fly to about four continents a year, and go to US-friendly, popular-with-US-tourists places like Indonesia (CIA: the world's largest Muslim population) and Turkey (CIA: Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni)). Thus far I haven't developed much faith in DHS's ability to keep friends and foes straight.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[erpbridge]

Well, hopefully the next President will stop some of this zany antics that have been going on. I really want to know how they would handle things for people who are having family emergencies and their parents/family live abroad in places like London or Israel, and they need to hop a plane fast.... Nope, sorry, gotta wait 48 hours for your registration to go through and be approved.

As far as the next president growing cajones.... One of the front runners right now.... well, need I say if they grew some LITERAL cajones, would be quite the scandal.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

It's really a 21st-century police state.

Yeah, the kind where you get a vote, where many people are strong-willed, and don't like being ignored. The kind that is roughly equivalent with what was formerly known as "democracy".

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[24-bit Voxel]

Actually it's Committee for State Security, if you are talking about the KGB.

"Ministry of _____" is 1984.

I can't imagine why you would be worried enough to post AC because you talked about the ex-USSR. You even got modded Informative and misquoted.

I'll grant that the GP is right about disbanding the DHLS. There is no question that this will end up being a pox on a "free society". You are also correct that the DHLS encompasses some of the powers of the ex-KGB. With with torture camps in foreign countries and Halliburton building internment/containment camps within the continental US, there is no doubt that it's going to get worse before it gets better. The fact that you are too paranoid to talk about it in a public forum already speaks volumes about how far we've come in such a short time if you otherwise would have posted.

I'm not offering up conspiracy theories, I'm just watching what is happening around me. You have to admit, it's very odd.

Posting normally for obvious reasons.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Sancho]

We clearly can't work off of names, as they aren't unique. Every person on the planet ought to be assigned a number. Since terrorists would just refuse to give up their number, we'll just implant a chip containing that number. Then, our watchlists will be perfect.

Digital Angel, here we come!

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Anonymous Coward]

In Saudi,
  Osama Bin Laden is not an uncommon name. I used to work in Riyadh and on at least two occassions, there was a gentleman with than name on the same flight to London that I was travelling on.
This was post 11th Sept 2001 btw.

I used to travel to the USA both on business and for pleasure. Not any more. It is just too much of a pain in the ass.
IMHO, The barriers to legal entry that the US Gov't is building is more akin to the wall that Israel is/had built to keep terrorists out of their country. I think it is more for show than really a really effective defence to illegal entry. Are the borders to the north and south of the 48 states Secure? I think not.

Anyway, this is, I'm sure another step on the way towards declaring that anyone who tries to enter the US illegally declared as a terrorist and sent (without any chance of protest or due legal process) To Guantanamo Bay. No more turning them back at the port of entry.
As a fairly pro US Foreigner, I would not like to see them going into their protectionist shell and giving two fingers to the rest of the world and saying "Sod off. We don't need you. We don't want you to come to our country"
Before I get a lot of the famous /. rants, let me say that aged 18, I witnessed first hand the PLO and the events of Munich 1972. Then not much later, as a Law student, I was in the Old Bailey(London) when the IRA set of a Bomb. I have more experience of terrorist attacks than 99.999% of US Citizens.

Let me ask a question.
How do you combat a ideology that wants to return the world to what it was like 1400 years ago? This is what most fundamental islamists want. They have a (misty eyed)vision of the world as described in the Koran. Nothing that has happened since matters one iota. All they want is to go to heaven and have the experience of a lifetime with all those virgins.
Whatever Bush/Blair/whoever do will not stop this fundamental belief of the future.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[mattcasters]

That's a great idea. Unfortunately it's very hard to pick out the evil foreigners though.
Better make them carry a distinctly visible item to allow you to see them clearly when they are walking on the street.
Unless these people agree to have a non-removeable chip implant of-course.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's really a 21st-century model," said James Carafano, a Heritage Foundation analyst who specializes in homeland security.

It's really a 21st-century police state.

More to the point -- Heritage Foundation -- 'nuff said.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Z00L00K]

But it's only being applied to foreigners

First it's terrorists, then it's foreigners, then it's known criminals, then it's suspected criminals, then it's the general average Joe, and then it's everyone. Starts to look like stepping stones to the Soviet state... Control over all humans, what they think and how they should vote. Upcoming steps will be an amendment that drops the freedom of speech and removal of some amendments like the fifth amendment (which seems to be invalid at Guantanamo Bay anyway).

There is a difference between watching and being intrusive. A lot of people in business that actually make their travel decision on a very short notice. Too few have been reading the dark future books or been watching the dark future films. It seems to be a really dark future around the corner, and maybe it's time to get a hideout ready somewhere. It's too late to get an alternate identity so you will have to keep a low profile with the one you have.

And in the end there will be only one party - and you must vote for it. Only government approved clothes, TV shows and commercials are allowed. Travel is restricted to government approved vehicles on protected routes. Damn any kid that visits a friend unless a travel plan has been filed. Marriages are going to be arranged by the government by genetic profile. Unemployed are sent out to do all dirty work, and prisoners has to do all the worst dirty work. Death penalty will be applied for any crime that is deemed to be "against the state" - which would be most crimes.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[scatters]

So, do virgins stay virgins in heaven? I mean, once you've had sex with them, they're no longer virgins right... Do you get a new set of virgins at that point? I'm presuming there is only a finite number of virgins in heaven, and probably becoming less everyday since all the good muslims who've died have already got their virgins, and let's face it, who dies a virgin these days (ok, apart from most slashdotters, but seriously, I think the muslims are hoping that the virgins are female...) Religion is way too confusing.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[mjwx]

Convert to my religion, where when you die you get 73 virgins. However, we also punish evil women by giving them 73 virgins.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[beaviz]

Convert to my religion, where when you die you get 73 virgins. However, we also punish evil women by giving them 73 virgins.

Is your heaven by any chance the same place as Christian nuns hell?

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[KudyardRipling]

It is within the heart of man to do such things. Human nature has not changed and will not change. Back up to the 1990's, there was all this preaching about the rise of the Antichrist and end-time prophecies by concerned evangelical Christians. Then came Project Megiddo from the FBI. This equated those who propagated end-time events with domestic terrorism. Why? This sort of teaching places government in a negative light and would cultivate distrust in the citizenry. Add 9/11/01 to the mix and anyone who so as farts in the wrong direction gets disappeared. Since 9/11/01, these people have seemed to have shut up. IMHO 'the elect are being deceived (let the reader understand)'. All that needs to happen now is banning cash and chipping people. This won't happen until the public at large forgets what that implies and will be scared into it or something nuclear or biological hits USA territory.

[kerCHUNK] [700Hz+1100Hz] Please deposit 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 cents for the next three minutes...

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[PopeRatzo]

"It's really a 21st-century model," said James Carafano, a Heritage Foundation analyst who specializes in homeland security. "It'll all be done electronically and biometrically. And it really doesn't compromise your privacy."'"

Whew, this gives me the chills. Forget for a moment that anytime I hear someone from the Heritage Foundation say something like "..and it really doesn't compromise your privacy." I want to head for ze hills.

I wonder sometimes that as bad as the attacks on 9/11 were, if they didn't cause some sort of permanent hysteria among the people who consider themselves "in power". I really thought that half a decade later it would calm down some, but I guess not. It seems that they really believed that they were completely safe in their little playhouse of power and watching those twin tower symbols of commerce and influence turned to rubble gave them a whiff of mortality.

Your average working guy could give a goddamn about terrorism. Maybe it's because they can do the basic math, comparing the number of people who died in the WTC with the masses dropping from disease, crime, environmental events like Hurricane Katrina, and they think: "The odds of me getting offed by some islamohitlerfascistliberal badguy just don't add up, so I'll worry a little more about the ARM on my house that just adjusted to the stratosphere and the fact that my kid has some environmentally-caused asthma, and I've gotta work more hours than ever to pay for health insurance and it just cost me $3.90 a gallon to fill my 12 year-old car."

The rate at which people like James Carafano, a Heritage Foundation analyst, are turning our world into some real by-God Orwellian dystopian nightmare is increasing at an amazing rate. If you would have asked me the year I graduated high school if I thought that by 2007 we'd actually be living in such an ugly Right-wing fever dream, I'd have said "no way, man, people are actually becoming MORE aware, not less, and anyway we just threw Nixon out of the White House and ended the War in Viet Nam and I just got my first piece of ass and check out this lid of crazy weed."

But here we are. I'll tell you what, Slashdotters, I'm just desperate about the future that we're leaving to my beloved daughter to think that a bunch of guys eating potato chips for breakfast and reading tech news online might just be part of the last best hope for sticking a spanner in the works of this hungry Moloch that's barreling down the tracks at us. Maybe a few hundred thousand poorly socialized geeks running Linux CAN make a difference. It's why I spend too much time every day hollering at my lcd monitor and typing way too hard. Get enough smart people agitated and we might have a chance, I think, or pray.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[KDR_11k]

Ministry of State Security is the GDR.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[KDR_11k]

Upcoming steps will be an amendment that drops the freedom of speech and removal of some amendments like the fifth amendment (which seems to be invalid at Guantanamo Bay anyway).

Nonsense, open actions like that would be too big of a bump to keep the populace quiet, it would be a large shock that would tell the people who are waiting for an excuse to revolt to do so now. No, quietly circumventing the laws where needed and still keeping the good laws on the books is a better approach. Widen the definition for Treason and keep using stuff like Guantanamo to get the same effect without giving the lazy slobs with guns any excuse to want you out of power.

Only government approved clothes, TV shows and commercials are allowed.

Not happening, the govt may be power hungry but they're too deep in the pockets of the big business to defy them. And hell, why restrict anything when they voluntarily follow you (like those "news" programmes with a strong agenda that just ignore news that don't fit their bias or just distort them).

And in the end there will be only one party - and you must vote for it.

Pfft, why make it obvious that they have no choice when you can have two parties with essentially the same agenda and the same sponsors that they can conveniently group themselves with?

Marriages are going to be arranged by the government by genetic profile.

What for? The people in power like their underlings dumb and lazy since that makes them easy to control and right now only those people really have the time to make many children because all the smart ones are too busy with their jobs to have any kids.

Re:"It's really a 21st-centry model."

[Anonymous Coward]

If you give a bunch of monkeys typewriters, sooner or later they'll type "Osama bin Laden."

You give WAY too much credit to the Department of Homeland Security.

My Prediction

[SRA8]

Just watch, I predict:
TSA: "no sir, we cannot allow you back into the US -- we have no record of you leaving."
You: "but i did register, here is the printout of the confirmation page"
TSA: "sorry sir, its not in the computer."

Other predictions: such predicaments happen more often to Arabs, Muslims, minorities, and members of the ACLU

Re:My Prediction

[Kabuthunk]

Without a doubt it'll happen more to any minority. No matter how unbiased the border crossing between for example Canada and the USA is supposed to be, if I (random white guy) am crossing it either alone, or with other random white people... I have never ONCE been stopped. Ever. Should I be travelling with a black and/or chinese friend... not a SINGLE time have we been let through without being stopped.

Now... coincidences can happen... but once you start flipping a coin a hundred times and every single flip is 'heads'... you're going to start to think something's not quite right about that coin.

Re:My Prediction

[Snowtide]

I wouldn't bet against that at all. Look at the current no fly list. Who was the one fderal US politician on it an darred from flying? :)

Re:My Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Other predictions: such predicaments happen more often to Arabs, Muslims, minorities, and members of the ACLU

It does sound too utopian doesn't it.

Re:My Prediction

[RealSurreal]

And mothers of young kids of course : http://www.boingboing.net/2007/06/14/tsa_detains_w oman_ov.html

Re:My Prediction

[larry bagina]

Other predictions: such predicaments happen more often to Arabs, Muslims, minorities, and members of the ACLU

Bullshit. DHS goes out of it's way to not do profiling. Not just ethnic profiling, but common sense profiling (like an old woman in a walker probably doesn't need a strip search). Israel doesn't have problems with airplane hijackers because their TSA counterparts check based on instinct/gut feelings/profiling rather than every 20th person.

Re:My Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

It already happens, and it's followed by a 24 hours interrogatory, then your visa is canceled, and you are added to the criminal registry of some agencies. it happened to a friend of my family, because the computer said he didn't leave. Now he really hates the U.S. for the humilliation he suffered.

Re:My Prediction

[SRA8]

"Bullshit. DHS goes out of it's way to not do profiling. "
Apparently you were in a coma for the last seven years. Please check the news.

Re:My Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

I refer you to the post immediately before your own...

Re:My Prediction

[TechnicalFool]

Something like this?

Re:My Prediction

[my $anity 0]

Israel doesn't have problems with airplane hijackers because their TSA counterparts check based on instinct/gut feelings/profiling rather than every 20th person.

I'm pretty sure they profile every 1th person.

Re:My Prediction

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel doesn't have problems with airplane hijackers because their TSA counterparts check based on instinct/gut feelings/profiling rather than every 20th person.

I'm pretty sure they profile every 1th person.

Well that and they have several armed guards plus randomly placed armed undercover agents. You don't take over a plane like that with a carpet knife.

Re:My Prediction

[krist0]

I had exactly that happen to me.

Background: I'm an Australian living in the Netherlands (Amsterdam actually) and I was in San Francisco for work for the second time. Turns out the first time I was there, the little green ticket they staple onto your passport that the airline takes out when you fly back got lost.

So the custom guy at the arrivals counter scans my passport. Red text on his screen. He checks me out, tells me to wait, goes off. Two cops come, take me to a side area, I get fingerprinted, photo'd and told to wait to be dealt with. 3 hours later or so, someone comes to help with my case.

I says, look, I am here for work, I am an Australian citizen, let me go please. He says there is no record of my leaving the US so I could have overstayed my last visa. I says, well look, my wife and my boss can vouch for my wareabouts or you can look in my passport and see I have travelled more than just your country. So he asks for my home number and my bosses (no shit) and calls them both. My wife freaks out cause she told me later she thought something bad happened to me (I mean, come on, "Hello, this is the United States Government, are you the wife of ...." ) and they called my boss. Finally after 5 hours, I'm out.

When leaving, I almost force the green thing in my passport onto the airline girl and vow never to return.

Seriously, american airports are the asshole of that country and as far as traveling goes, I will never set foot in America again.

Fuck that.

won't compromise your privacy?

[Anonymous Coward]

"...won't compromise your privacy."

Really? and i suppose the new passports won't, either.

Re:won't compromise your privacy?

[HTH NE1]

"...won't compromise your privacy."

Really? and i suppose the new passports won't, either.

What privacy? Hard to compromise something we no longer have by any meaningful measure, be ye foreign or domestic.

HALT!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your papers sir! Show me your papers!

captcha: register ?!?!

And it really doesn't compromise your privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

Famous last words.

An old dupe,

[the_kanzure]

"When will we grant ourselves the right to travel?" - And it looks like we need it ASAP.

Like Predicting the Sun Rising in the East

[sehlat]

Sooner or later, this will be applied to ordinary citizens, as well.

"I'm sorry, sir, but you didn't register your travel plans to go from Oakland to San Francisco."

"But my wife's having a baby and that's the nearest hospital!"

"Then where is the BABY's travel registration."

Re:Like Predicting the Sun Rising in the East

[MillionthMonkey]

Heh, that reminds me of the breastfeeding mother who bottled her own milk in advance and was forced by TSA to drink it.

Re:Like Predicting the Sun Rising in the East

[maxume]

You realize that people from countries other than the United States generally are ordinary citizens right? Just not of the U.S.

Re:Like Predicting the Sun Rising in the East

[sehlat]

You realize that people from countries other than the United States generally are ordinary citizens right? Just not of the U.S.

True. This proposal may end up passing because, like any other pack animal, humans regard "not us" (i.e. not a member of our pack) as fair game. Then it will end up being applied to U.S. citizens because the "TSA pack" regards citizens as "not us."

ObFloyd

[Anonymous Coward]

All in all it's just another brick in the wall.

Godwin

[MadUndergrad]

Vhere are your papers?

Re:Godwin

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean: Ausweis bitte!

Re:Godwin

[pafrusurewa]

That's right. The US is the only country I've been to where I've been asked for my passport by police while travelling inside the country. Repeatedly. And I've been to dozens of countries on every continent, even a to a couple of supposedly 'evil' communist countries.

Re:Godwin

[SpacePunk]

No, don't even joke about it.

Newspeak and Doublethink

[Anonymous Coward]

> It's really a 21st-century model", said James Carafano, a Heritage Foundation analyst who specializes in homeland security. "It'll all be done electronically and biometrically. And it really doesn't compromise your privacy."'

Spectacular. In the 20th century, of course, that sort of thing was the opposite of "not compromising your privacy", and the sort of thing we used to think of as the domain of the Soviet Union.

But in Newspeak, we have the advantages of doublethink and duckspeak, and it no longer feels as weird. Thus: "20thinkers unbellyfeel Amsoc. 21thinkers bellyfell Amsoc! Carafano doubleplusgood HomeSec doublethinking duckspeaker!"

Speaking of the Soviet Union, from TFA:

> Applicant countries say U.S. officials are living in the past if they are worried about a flood of East Europeans entering - and not leaving.
>
> "Many people in the U.S. seem to believe it is a natural instinct of every Pole, Hungarian or Slovak to want to stay in the U.S.," Reiter said. "This is totally wrong today."

No Newspeak translation available:
"In Soviet Russia, people fleeing from tyranny wanted to stay in America!"

Out of Hand

[Anonymous Coward]

This is getting out of hand. Airlines are complaining about already low numbers of people traveling like it already isn't a pain in the ass to fly anyways. Besides who in their right mind would register a legit name and travel to do something 'evil'. Just another way to have to control and power.

"If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve." -Jello Biafra

And once more....

[Anonymous Coward]

...freedom loses and Osama Bin Laden wins. Who hates freedom again?

Umm, RTFA?

[Penguinisto]

It mentions foreign travelers inbound to the US, not US citizens outbound elsewhere. US Citizens travelling abroad (or internally, or etc) are obviously not affected by this. Also, it's not as if we'd be the first to implement such a plan in either case.

So, err, maybe before you pick up more tomatoes to throw at the administration for this plan (which incidentally is not a member of Congress, as the TFA states as being the branch o' government pushing this change), maybe you folks would actually care to read what it is you're ranting against?

Just a thought...

/P

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[chris_mahan]

Ah, I forgot, the sub-human foreign travelers. Nice. My Japanese citizen wife and mother of my son will really appreciate your point.

from TFA: Paragraph 2:

The requirement, proposed by the Homeland Security Department...

Pass the tomatoes.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[HTH NE1]

It mentions foreign travelers inbound to the US, not US citizens outbound elsewhere.

Beware shifting definitions. A foreign traveler can be read two ways: a foreigner that travels here or anyone that travels to foreign places.

Be sure they note when citizens travel to unfriendly places and seek to return. Declaration of someone as an "enemy combatant" is effectively the same as revoking someone's citizenship, even a natural-born citizen.

Yakov Smirnov should update his act: "American Express: Don't Leave Home."

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[grcumb]

It mentions foreign travelers inbound to the US, not US citizens outbound elsewhere. US Citizens travelling abroad (or internally, or etc) are obviously not affected by this. Also, it's not as if we'd be the first to implement such a plan in either case.

Oh! Foreigners! Well, that's all right, then!

I guess we won't be needing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, then. Silly thing says all humans are created equal. And Article 13, the part about freedom of movement, is clearly a quaint antique, a relic of a bygone era when Americans actually cared about others.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Dionysus]

It mentions foreign travelers inbound to the US, not US citizens outbound elsewhere. US Citizens travelling abroad (or internally, or etc) are obviously not affected by this. Also, it's not as if we'd be the first to implement such a plan in either case. What makes you think other countries won't retaliate by implementing the same rules for US citizens? And what makes you think the information collected won't be shared by the different intelligence agencies?

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems to me they read what they're ranting against. from TFA: "The requirement, proposed by the Homeland Security Department..."

Also, you're missing a fundamental concept: that DHS, just like the other 14 departments in the president's cabinet, works in conjunction with the oval office to implement the administration's policies (or in the current case, to foist the administration's ideology on the people) and as such is considered an integral part of tossed-rotten-tomato-worthy administration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cabinet

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Penguinisto]

* Non-US Citizens have never (as in, "ever") enjoyed the full protection of US law (save for illegal immigrants, but that's a whole other argument, as we're talking only ostensibly here).

BTW: No mention of other nations' citizenry and/or their humanity was made, so appeals to emotion based on a strawman argument doesn't wash. Deal.

* Proposed? Great - so what branch of government is DHS again, and when did they get to create/codify law?

/P

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Penguinisto]

What makes you think other countries won't retaliate by implementing the same rules for US citizens?

Some already do. *shrug*

/P

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Lemmy Caution]

Something I've always admired about Brazil: they have a policy of reciprocity that makes it just as big a pain in the ass for Americans to go to Brazil as it is for Brazilians to go to America.

Some international academic organizations that I'm involved with, which move their conferences from one country to another, have begun skipping the US and choosing to host their North American conferences in Canada instead. I expect this trend to continue: I'm going to encourage conferences in Brazil.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[cdrguru]

Japan requires payment of an exit fee. And they are very watchful over foreigners that overstay their visas.

Australia charges for a visa as well.

Just because the US has been unbelievably lax does not mean it should continue.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[chris_mahan]

Nice trolling I must admit.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[lahvak]

Also, it's not as if we'd be the first to implement such a plan in either case.

You are right! All those nice communist countries used to have very similar system in place.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Penguinisto]

I'm just stating basics. It may seem uncomfortable to some (esp. those who may love to show their ideological credentials), but there it is :)

/P

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[amuro98]

It mentions foreign travelers inbound to the US, not US citizens outbound elsewhere. US Citizens travelling abroad (or internally, or etc) are obviously not affected by this.

And so, you said nothing.

Also, it's not as if we'd be the first to implement such a plan in either case.

So OBVIOUSLY it's a good idea...

Martin Niemöller wrote about a similar program in his country.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[theshowmecanuck]

And some people in America wonder why so many people in other countries don't like America. Get a clue. You think treating people from other countries like shit doesn't affect Americans. There are many other countries as free as America... and now-a-days, certainly many are more free. So this B.S. that terrorists attack America because they don't like freedom is just that, bullshit. Why not practice some of that Christian philosophy that President Wanker professes to espouse: do onto other as you would have them do unto you. The practice of screw everyone for the money sure hasn't worked for your safety has it? And if you are going to say how safe the country has been with the new stasi... there were more Americans killed by American terrorists against Americans (Oklahoma City) than by foreign terrorists in the ten years before 9/11. Meanwhile there have been more than 3000 killed since. And those were killed by the actions of another American: the president. I happen to know that there are many Americans who don't share your view. It is why I think there is still hope for the country.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Great - so what branch of government is DHS again, and when did they get to create/codify law?

The executive branch, which is permitted to create legally binding "regulations" at whim, often without public knowledge or input.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[timmarhy]

exit taxes have nothing to do with this fuckwit. it's the part where you need to register your movments with them like your some kind of convict out on bail.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Checkmait]

And some people in America wonder why so many people in other countries don't like America. Get a clue. You think treating people from other countries like shit doesn't affect Americans. There are many other countries as free as America... and now-a-days, certainly many are more free. And what makes you think that so many Americans are clueless as the the worldwide resentment which has built up against them because of the actions of a certain executive in the White House? Why else is Mr. Bush's approval rating hovering around 30%? And while I would argue that there are really not any other nations more free than America (at least for citizens), I would certainly agree that the American government is acting very hypocritically on the subject of freedom, especially (as seen in TFA) towards foreign visitors.

Why not practice some of that Christian philosophy that President Wanker professes to espouse: do onto other as you would have them do unto you. The practice of screw everyone for the money sure hasn't worked for your safety has it? And may I ask, how many people in America practice "screw everyone for the money?" If you answer only the top corporate executives and maybe a few politicians accepting bribes, then you would be right. And there aren't many of those. Unfortunately, they have a disproportionate amount of influence in this nation, but they form a very small minority nonetheless.

And if you are going to say how safe the country has been with the new stasi... I will be blunt here, for I feel very strongly on this point. There is no secret police in America. The closest that we have come is with a bunch of telcoms either too chicken or too stupid to not comply with the FBI/CIA's illegal requests. However, there is no secret police in the United States.

there were more Americans killed by American terrorists against Americans (Oklahoma City) than by foreign terrorists in the ten years before 9/11. Meanwhile there have been more than 3000 killed since. And those were killed by the actions of another American: the president. Very true. I don't deny it and no one else does. However, what you missed is that 9/11--which killed more than Oklahoma City, Pearl Harbor, and Iraq (to date) combined--was the trigger for Bush's fanatical delusions (which in turn led to the 3000+ soldiers dying in Iraq).

There are several reasonable attitudes to take on America's actions--from supporting it wholeheartedly to severely doubting it--but to entirely disparage the nation and denounce it for several entirely different, scattered reasons with little outside evidence is a little too much. However, having said that, I will also say that I am totally disgusted by the Bush administration and its policies and ideas, which I believe have severely damaged the United States, most notably in the field of foreign policy.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[fredklein]

It mentions foreign travelers inbound to the US, not US citizens outbound elsewhere. US Citizens travelling abroad (or internally, or etc) are obviously not affected by this.

YEah... because the government never expands it's powers, including groups later that were'nt included before....

And they have the perfect excuse- 9/11. "Well, you know, we already track furriners... but the 9/11 turrists had USA identification, so we need to expand this to Everyone in the USA...."

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[sasdrtx]

I am a US citizen, and I'm fairly enraged every time I return from abroad. In Europe or Japan, security, passport checks, and customs are typically quick and painless.

When returning to the US, you're typically screwing around for at least an hour. If you're a US citizen. Processing of foreigners takes longer, and is very similar to in-processing at a county jail. I wonder how many visitors think they've been arrested when they get here? I wonder whether entering the Soviet Union was ever so ridiculous.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's so basic, could you please show me the part of the Constitution where it says that all this stuff only applies to citizens? It would clear up a great deal of confusion and I would be much obliged.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[djrok212]

You don't think other countries will put similar policies in place? This WILL make travel for US citizens more difficult.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[ignavus]

I travelled around the world in April. The US was the only country I passed through (and I was only transiting through - I never went outside the airports) that wanted to photograph and fingerprint me, and my wife and *children*. And I am an Australian of British ancestry - a more WASP-ish Australian family you could not find. Not a group of people given to terrorist attacks on America.

Many of the countries I visited didn't even look at my passport (*cough* *cough* Europe) - I just drove straight over the borders quite legally and kept going (rather like an American crossing state borders). We even flew in and out of a one-party police state that treated us better as transit passengers than the Americans did. And as for New Zealand, which we visited in January 2006, they practically invited us to stay, get a house, a job and live there - no forms, applications or visas required. We had an automatic right to stay as long as we liked, and even settle there. Most hospitable and friendly and welcoming.

America is the only place I have visited that treated me like a person being charged with an offence (that is what I would have to do in Australia to be fingerprinted).

So about these other countries that you reckon behave like America: they are obviously not Europe or the UK or Australia, are they? China? North Korea? Iran? Is that who you are emulating?

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[rtb61]

More to the point how do you 'prove' you are a citizen with out access to the courts ie. you are a foreign terrorist suspect for as long as they say you are and you can not legally 'prove' you are not as you are legally denied access to a court to do so.

Ironically once you are in this situation the only way out is to be deported to a country with a proper rule of law so that you can gain access to the courts to prove that you are a citizen and then legally return, with 48 hours notice of course ;).

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[QRDeNameland]

However, what you missed is that 9/11--which killed more than Oklahoma City, Pearl Harbor, and Iraq (to date) combined--was the trigger for Bush's fanatical delusions (which in turn led to the 3000+ soldiers dying in Iraq).

Better check your math....

9/11 official death toll: 2,793

vs.

Pearl Harbor death toll: 2,403

OKC death toll: 168

Iraq death toll to date: 3,466 (US military), 276 (other coalition military), 917 (contractors), 102 (journalists), 39 (media support workers), 88 (aid workers)

Even without counting Iraqi deaths (estimates run from 68,000 up to 655,000), you are off by more than half.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[germanbirdman]

And if you are going to say how safe the country has been with the new stasi...
I will be blunt here, for I feel very strongly on this point. There is no secret police in America. The closest that we have come is with a bunch of telcoms either too chicken or too stupid to not comply with the FBI/CIA's illegal requests. However, there is no secret police in the United States.

Stasi != Gestapo.

Stasi; short for Ministerium fuer Staatssicherheit; translated: Department of State/Homeland Security. Existed in the former communist East Germany and encouraged spying on all the individuals by individuals.
Gestapo = acronymn for 'GEheime STAats POlizei' - Secret State Police. This was under the Third Reich.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[2short]

"so what branch of government is DHS again"

It's part of the Executive branch.

"and when did they get to create/codify law?"

DHS has extensive rule-making authority. These rules have the force of law. You seem to be implying that these rules won't become legal requirements without action by Congress. In this, you are incorrect.

As far as who deserves to have their rights protected, everyone vs. just citizens, I think Jefferson addressed that better than I could.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes you think other countries won't retaliate by implementing the same rules for US citizens?

Simple -- the fucking US calls the shots. Remember when the EU had strict laws limiting "sharing" personal data? The law was that they could not exchange it with countries not providing equally strict protections and it went into effect some five years ago. So the US got them to hold off on implementation while we "negotiated" with them.

Not only did we basically tell them they could piss off, we ended up with the ludicrous situation last year where a plane was turned back on a flight from Europe due to the presence of someone we didn't want in the US. The insane part was that the plane going to Canada and only flying over US territory, not even landing here. I guess some Washington pissant was afraid the plane would crash during the overflight and "the undesirable" would survive.

To paraphrase the old "Treasure of Sierra Madre" line -- "We don't gotta show you no steenking reasons".

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

* Proposed? Great - so what branch of government is DHS again, and when did they get to create/codify law?

They may as well be in the same branch as the secret cabal of energy executives which the bastard Cheney convened to write the nation's energy policy.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[nicklott]

TA planes are turned back every month now, it just doesn't get reported anymore. Normally it's because the passenger list includes a "Mohammed".

The US may think it can call the shots, but if you had to permanently live in a room with a sociopath you'd probably opt for the quiet life too (or cut off his oil supply).

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[janrinok]

I'm glad that you pointed this error out. I was about to do the same.

I thought at one point that, in keeping with much of this story, he only meant 'Americans' and not those other nasty 'foreigners' such as myself. But, even so, his calculation was badly in error.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[dlanod]

I had the exact same experience. I was stunned when I got to the US Customs and they fingerprinted and photographed me. It's a great start to be made to feel like a criminal before even getting into the country. I'm yet to find any other country like that, even visiting China, Vietnam, etc.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[vtcodger]

I take it that you won't be back soon. Can't say that I blame you.

I wonder what the hell our department of Homeland Stupidity is doing with all those photographs and fingerprints. Nothing sensible, I'll wager. These are the same guys whose secret No-Fly list has been revealed to be pretty much of a joke.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Checkmait]

Oops! Sorry, you're right!

I accidentally added 300 not 3000 for the soldiers killed in Iraq. Thank you for pointing that out!

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Checkmait]

encouraged spying on all the individuals by individuals Well, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi, the Stasi was also a secret police force. Also, even if the Stasi were not, the DHS dos not encourage Americans to spy on each other. Instead, it is involved in other shady operations, such as illegal, warrantless wiretapping, and so on.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

What a jerk you are "ignavus". You think you should be treated differently because of your so called WASP-ish ness. Well-come to the world that rest of us live in. People like you never have problem when same treatment is given to some one from "third" world countries, but how dare they fingerprint some one who is a WASP right?

As much as I hate the restrictions on travel within US after 9-11, I am glad that by and large us is leveling the field and removing special treatments for jerks like you.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[jkro]

We have to defend ourselves from not only foreigners but also alians! Aliens! (These legal and illigal)

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[vic-traill]

there is no secret police in the United States.

Er, you know that's why they're called the *secret* police, right?

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[glesga_kiss]

So about these other countries that you reckon behave like America: they are obviously not Europe or the UK or Australia, are they? China? North Korea? Iran? Is that who you are emulating?

When I visited China 10 years ago it was friendlier that the US and this is before the recent financial and cultural changes that have made it more open. You did need to get a visa posted from the Chinese embassy first, but once I had that I went to passport control in Beijing, handed over my visa and passport, the guy smiled and waved me through after stamping my passport.

I visited the US the same year. No visa required IIRC but we did have to fill out forms on the aircraft and wait for two hours at the two of ten desks that we processing non-american passengers. Wait time for Americans was ten minutes and there was much discussion of this in the queue. Welcome to America.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[10101001 10101001]

DHS has extensive rule-making authority. These rules have the force of law.

"All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives." -- Article I, Section I, US Constitituion

It seems pretty clear to me that the DHS, being not part of Congress, can't make rules having the force of law legally, anymore than the President can (executive orders being equally unconstitutional, unless they're merely orders to carry out the law). Of course, the modern judicial, legislative and executive branches seem to think otherwise. But, it's pretty clearly spelled out in the Constitution, regardless. But then, I guess that's more a point of nitpicking given the many ways in which the Constitution is regularly ignored and hence how many things are "legal".

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a US citizen, I will not fly within the US either.. between "having" to show up at the airport 1-2 hours early, frequent flight delays, the high likelihood of some DHS heavies hassling me, it's hardly worth it. You know, a few years back, I drove my parents to Harrisburg airport (where they had a flight back to Iowa.) I took off from the airport and drove back to Iowa (~1000 miles, and I live in the same town as my parents so it's a fair comparison..) Between them having to show up at Harrisburg an hour before flight time, the usual layover in O'Hare plus flight delays in O'Hare, I actually got home over 4 hours earlier than they did. And, since I sat in a comfy car seat instead of stiff airport and airplane seats, I didn't have a sore ass the next day either.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[SvnLyrBrto]

> Well, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi, the Stasi was also a secret
> police force. Also, even if the Stasi were not, the DHS dos not encourage Americans
> to spy on each other. Instead, it is involved in other shady operations, such as
> illegal, warrantless wiretapping, and so on.

You're right. The DHS leaves the effort to turn citizens against each other into an auxiliary secret police to a separate agency: the FBI. So since the FBI falls under the "Justice" Department, instead of fatherland security, technically, you're right.

Myself, I don't care about the specifics of the org chart. The government trying to turn the citizens into spies against each other is QUITE Stasi-esque in my book. And they all fall under the umbrella of the executive branch, (As Harry Truman once said about the presidency: "The buck stops here.".) anyway.

cya,
john

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[2short]

The Constitution, and legality in general, are sometimes ignored by government, and I entirely approve of outrage on such occasions. But the mere fact of Executive branch agencies having rule-making authority is not such an occasion.

Congress passes laws, and authorizes or establishes agencies of the executive branch to carry them out. These agencies are granted, by Congress, the authority to make rules and regulations which enforce the laws.

So, for example, Congress passes a law saying you can't dump toxic waste in the ocean, but the EPA makes rules spelling out the details of how you need to measure how toxic your stuff is, and how often you need to report the results or whatever. Obviously, these rules must have legal force, and they do, because the authority goes back to Congress, who granted EPA the authority to make such rules as would be necessary to carry out whatever the law was.

There must of course be safe-guards to prevent the agency in question just doing whatever they want. Ultimately, they can be sued if it seems clear their rules are not actually designed to carry out the law in question. Frequently they must propose new rules some amount of time before they take effect, and give the public a chance to comment, or to call their legislators, or for the legislators to pass a bill specifically forbidding the proposed rule, or whatever.

This is such an instance. So if you find the proposed rules outrageous, please don't just complain that the system doesn't work in a slashdot post. In this instance, the system is working fine so far, and the next step is for you to express your outrage to someone with some ability to do anything about it.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[realkiwi]

We love America! It is just the little bit that calls itself "United States" that sucks somewhat. We hope that it will fix itself someday soon.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[10101001 10101001]

Congress passes laws, and authorizes or establishes agencies of the executive branch to carry them out. These agencies are granted, by Congress, the authority to make rules and regulations which enforce the laws.

Again, "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives." (emphasis mine) -- Article I, Section I, US Constitituion. In short, Congress doesn't have the power to deligate law-making to other bodies. If Congress wants that power, they'll have to do what anyone else would have to when what is wanted is currently unconstitutional: change the Constitution. Trying to shortcut the law by naming deligations "rules" and "with the force of law" are clear attempts to usurp the Constitution. Would it suddenly become reasonable for the Judiciary to form an army "with the force of law" to release Jose Padilla and arrest Congressmen for which the Executive branch has the legal power to do so because the executive branch "authorized" it? Of course not.

The simple fact is, by bluring the lines of power between the different branches, each branch is less inclined to police other branches, as they feel united instead of divided. Even worse, the blurred lines make it even more difficult to assign credit or blame for actions commited, making it even more difficult to select a representative in the right position to do the right job. Finally, such creates the situation that we have today, where wide latitudes and "trust" allow for wholesale distortion of existing law depending solely on who is in the White House. The point of the Presidency is to carry out existing law while trying to lobby for change, not to twist existing laws as one pleases while pushing to stagnate the legislative process. Why else do you think the Presidency is given the power to push the legislative agenda, if he/she can simply write "rules" to circumvent it?

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[2short]

You want Congress to design every IRS form? To write every FBI procedure for cataloging evidence?

If the Congress specifies requirements for immigration, can the Border patrol designate the places one can cross the border? If a border crossing has two lanes open, and the Border patrol wants to close one while some guys take a lunch break, does it take an Act of Congress? That's rule-making. It was legal to cross the border in the left lane of the highway, and now it's not: rule-making backed by the force of law.

This is essential to ever get anything done. It doesn't mean the border patrol can suddenly make a rule that everyone entering the country must give the agent there all their money. They can make rules necessary to carry out those acts of congress they are charged with carrying out. The law authorizing them to make these rules also requires following the rules.

I'm confident your interpretation of the Constitution is incorrect, and not only because it must be to have a functioning government. Simply because most of the same people who wrote and signed it were elected to the first congress, where they immediately passed laws granting rule-making authority to executive branch agencies. practically every law grants such authorities.

Rule making is perfectly constitutional. It's still illegal to make rules that exceed the authority you've been granted, or which go against the will of congress as expressed in the laws granting that authority.

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[10101001 10101001]

It's still illegal to make rules that exceed the authority you've been granted, or which go against the will of congress as expressed in the laws granting that authority.

Which is the main problem. Congress *doesn't* end up expressing clearly laws granting authority. Instead, the wording is so incredibly vague that the Executive branch ends up effectively defining their own laws. When you start having committees and boards formed to define what "infectious disease" and "drug with no medical value", you're making law. The fact that Congress wants to delegate this responsibility to the Executive branch because they don't see how they'd find the time to do it doesn't justify their actions. It only highlights why the Constitution might need changed to include such boards under the legislative branch, the place where laws are supposed to be made.

To maker another analogy, imagine if the Constitution hadn't included provisions for subordinate federal courts under the supreme court. Would you suggest that because subordinate courts are necessary--given the staggering work load that would otherwise saturate a single supreme court--that we shouldn't even *try* to change the Constitution but merely accept that these hypothetical unconstitutional federal courts exist? Even if they're put under the Executive branch's realm of influence? As much as I hate the idea of a flag burning Constitutional amendment, I at least respect that the people with such an idea realize that an Act of Congress just won't suffice. Perhaps there should be more thought into making things legal instead of merely trying to justify illegal activity under the banner of "but we'd never function without it".

Re:Umm, RTFA?

[2short]

A border patrol agent who wants to close one lane of a border crossing for lunch time does not need to be part of the legislative branch. He changes legal requirements (which lane you can legally use), but he does not make law (you must cross at places designated by the border patrol). I mentioned the fact that we would never get by without this distinction as an aside, not a justification.

Your interpretation appears to be that the border patrol agent closing a lane at lunch time must be the legislative branch. You said "under the legislative branch", but actually, the Congress only has power in the aggregate. A single congressperson couldn't make a law closing that lane, congress would have to pass a law closing it. And even then, if you used the wrong lane, could you be arrested? Would the cop have the authority to tell you to get in the back of his patrol car, or would congress need to pass a bill dictating that you must? At some point, it has to be possible to delegate the authority to carry out laws, and to require cooperation.

Luckily, your interpretation does not appear to be (or to have been) shared by anyone; most relevantly, it does not appear to have been shared by the people who wrote and signed the Constitution.

You seem to be upset by abuses of rule-making authority. It is perfectly reasonable to be upset by this. But your conclusion that the authority doesn't exist is not reasonable.

Oh, and on flag burning:
"I at least respect that the people with such an idea realize that an Act of Congress just won't suffice."
They realized that only after they passed the law and the Supreme Court struck it down, which makes it a bit too obvious to generate any respect from me.

Checks and balances

[Anonymous Coward]

The system works:
DHS(-friendly think tank): ... it really doesn't compromise your privacy.
Congress: Really?
DHS(-friendly think tank): Really, really.
Congress: Excellent. Keep up the good work.

if the USA wants real security

[partowel]

first...no one has any rights. period.

2. you have to tell the gov't everything you do, eat, buy, etc. etc.

3. Give up any idea that it is your life. it isn't. The gov't owns you. You are nothing but gov't property.

4. If anyone thinks this is a good thing....they are insane. But it is secure.

5. welcome to hell.

No, Really. For Serious.

[lmnfrs]

"And it really doesn't compromise your privacy."

"And we really are aware of what the hell is going on and why this is a good idea. Also, we're not lying this time."

Re:No, Really. For Serious.

[Anonymous Coward]

Al Gore believes Saddam is colluding with terrorists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JE48XHKG64

There are lies. Then there are damn lies.

Tourism revenues

[A beautiful mind]

There are figures that your economy is losing out in the magnitude of tens of billion dollars due to decreased tourism to the USA because of stupid procedures. I know that I'm not willing to go to the USA as long as I'm treated as a criminal and I'm not alone with that sentiment.

These new plans are just bound to make it worse.

Re:Tourism revenues

[robably]

I know that I'm not willing to go to the USA as long as I'm treated as a criminal and I'm not alone with that sentiment.

Amen. I feel the same way about the USA now as I do about Stonehenge - I'm glad I visited it years ago before it was spoiled by the barriers they put up.

Re:Tourism revenues

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't, don't, DON'T visit the United States as long as the United States does extraordinary renditions on innocent Canadian citizens passing through the United States. I'm serious. Stay away. Don't even pass through.

Re:Tourism revenues

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not just tourism. As the original article points out businesses are affected in the same way. People are less interested in investing money in places they can't travel to. Smart people are less interested in moving to hostile locations. And lastly the copyright regime is also to blame. In their zeal to lock everything up to extract more rent from their intellectual properties they are inadvertently killing US cultural exports to the world. Fortress America indeed.

Re:Tourism revenues

[JimBobJoe]

I know that I'm not willing to go to the USA as long as I'm treated as a criminal and I'm not alone with that sentiment.

And as an American, I ask that you encourage as many people to do the same. I would not travel to any country that photographed and fingerprinted me as a condition of entry, and I would not expect anyone else to do the same. My fear is that if Homeland Security doesn't feel the pain of their decisions now, who knows what other things they'll come up with.

Re:Tourism revenues

[chadruva]

I live in the frontier of USA and Mexico, I used to cross to USA and buy things from american stores, things like clothes, electronics, etc.

We need a special visa card in order to get to USA, your passport is not enough, after 9/11 things got just wrong, is more difficult to cross the border to shop, prices are getting higher, gasoline for example used to be cheaper on USA and many crossed the border just to load, now nobody really goes to USA unless is to buy electronics or random stuff from the "dollar" shops on the border which are property of chinese people selling chinese merchandise.

On the city from the USA side there is a Walmart, Keymart and many big stores, but there is really low population, Mexico side has a high population level (and high density) and now that we got many big stores of our own there is little or no reason to cross to USA to shop.

USA is shooting themselves on the foot with this crap, they will realize when the money from the War is over, they wont get a penny from me and many people that used to cross to USA just to do their shopping.

Re:Tourism revenues

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you actually been to the US recently? I'd swear they're becoming more and more like a third world country.

Seriously, the country is a dump. Trash isn't picked up, roads are allowed to go to shit (potholes the width of the road were the norm), and then there's the US authorities.

This crap isn't helping the US, but honestly, save your money, visit anywhere else. Chances are it'll be in better shape and the people will be friendly.

Re:Tourism revenues

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here. It's just yet another reason not to go to USA. I'd rather spend my money elsewhere.

Re:Tourism revenues

[/dev/trash]

Bah. What's to see in the USA anyway?

For such a secretive administration

[javiercero]

This current caval sure likes to keep information from the public, and for such a secretive bunch they surely don't like to extend the same courtesy to their citizens. Mind you, we pay the administration's salaries so at the end of the day they are our employees... and I would surely love to know what my employees are up to.

Re:For such a secretive administration

[Anonymous Coward]

So don't pay your taxes.

Won't affect me ...

[Alain Williams]

I decided a couple of years ago that the USA was not a country that I wanted to visit: too much invasion of privacy; the country that has sponsored more terrorism than any other over the last 50 years; ignores any responsibility under Kyoto/global-warming; attempts to export its own laws to other countries; abuses power of trade for its own ends - doesn't play by the rules ...

Unfortunately: the UK seems to be following the USA; maybe a new prime minister will have more of a mind of his own - but I suspect that we need a new government to get that.

Re:Won't affect me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a shame choices for an alternative are so poor in the UK... encouraging the emergence of more interesting, and politically distinguishable, parties might be one of the best legacies of increased independence of the constituent countries.

Re:Won't affect me ...

[Tatisimo]

And eventually, the rest of the world follows, because "all the cool kids were doing it" and "it's the civilized thing to do."

Re:Won't affect me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

We already have the Lib Dems, who actually support election reform. If you want more political diversity, you desperately need election reform, so vote for the Lib Dems this election!

Re:Won't affect me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Completely agree with you.
As a brit living in the US, I'm leaving as soon as I can.

Re:Won't affect me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh. Enjoy your 4.2 million CCTV cameras in the UK, and the lack of ability to legally defend yourself.

America is certainly screwed up, and I hate a lot of the recent political developments here, especially 9/11. However, I'm afraid that in many ways the UK is leading the charge on terrible laws and policies by comparison. Of course, I'm sure your airports are much less of a cluster fuck than ours currently are.

Not trying to be irritating, I think both countries, and indeed much of the world, have tons of... umm... "room for improvement" with regard to politics.

Re:Won't affect me ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Good riddance.

Re:Won't affect me ...

[janrinok]

I agree, so I left the UK. I now live in Europe. The standard of living is better, the quality of life is much, much better, my pension goes further, I managed to buy my home for less than half of what I would have to pay in the UK and I and my family are made welcome. I tried voting for a change - apparently I was in the minority of those that bothered to vote - and so I left. It isn't difficult, even for those who have to change job.

Re:Won't affect me ...

[janrinok]

Don't believe the soundbites. I can still defend myself legally - but I cannot shoot someone. That, in my mind, is no bad thing. We don't have widespread use of weapons by criminals yet - the reason that you see it reported in the press is that it is still very much in the minority, although that doesn't lessen the impact and devastation by whole families of people when weapons are used against their loved ones. But I can still use reasonable force - reasonable dependent upon however the criminal is harmed - to protect myself and my family. The cameras do improve security in many areas which, in my mind, far outweighs any 'intrusion'. They are only located in public places and they do NOT conduct the widespread tracking that individuals who only learn from the media seem to believe. I promise not to judge the US based on what I see watching the many TV programs that seem to originate there. You would also be wise not to accept at face value the statements that you see and hear in our media. Many are written to sell newspapers and to earn air time. If they weren't sensationalist, they wouldn't even be considered. I still consider that there is more freedom in Europe than there is currently in the US but I don't expect any American to agree with me.

Re:Won't affect me ...

[janrinok]

s/harmed/armed - but it still makes sense. I can only inflict harm that is appropriate to the threat being posed.

Local Travel Next?

[nurb432]

So, we can assume that next local citizens have to register if they want to travel, lets say more then 50 miles from home, or across a state line? Or how about have to sign in if you enter any public building...

Re:Local Travel Next?

[arashi no garou]

Or how about have to sign in if you enter any public building...


Which pretty much destroys the entire concept of it being a public building. Further down this path, we sign in to the museum, then the public park. Finally, we must provide our thumbprint or retinal scan to leave our own front door.

And I'm not even the paranoid type.

Re:Local Travel Next?

[nurb432]

I wont mention where, but in a large town near me, the previously 'open' state-house now has a check-in process for the public. Part of that is showing ID. They arent currently recording it, but that idea *was* floated.

Re:Local Travel Next?

[chris_mahan]

Your front door? You mean the Government's front door. Attached to the Government's house you happen to be allowed to live in as long as you "behave".

As a european....

[sjwest]

Visiting the usa again got less desire-able. No i don't think i will be doing that conference in the US this year again.

While i respect the feeling that getting blown up by saudi arabian (bin g. w. bush relative) is a valid fud for the american public i don't like the aspect that all 'aliens' go to America to cause trouble.

I'm not of middle eastern origin etc but I'd still rather not visit. A thing in a national newspaper in england recently from a Journalist said that even stopping in america to jump on another plane (two hour stop-over) at Miami was the pits.

Republicans seeking tax cuts might like to know that the tourist promotions e.g. 'visit usa' might be got rid of on the basis that america it seems does not really like the concept of 'short term visitors*'

* a month or less.

Re:As a european....

[feepness]

Visiting the usa again got less desire-able.

Given your apparent opinion of us I don't think you'll be missed. You sound like the Euoropean equivalent of the "ugly american". I've had stopovers in LAX returning from international travel. The only irritating thing was the line at the food court.

Re:As a european....

[Compholio]

No i don't think i will be doing that conference in the US this year again.

Eh, we won't go to your conferences either - but that's because our government won't let us anymore :( Man, we're just screwed backwards and forwards.

Re:As a european....

[imsabbel]

Basically, i agree.

But i have to go there for my job, so i cant help it.

At least when i am there, in berkeley the facist police state isnt visible yet :)

Re:As a european....

[cdrguru]

While it would be nice to block all Muslim travelers to the US, it isn't going to fly with the more PC folks. "Racial profiling" would be shouted out everywhere, even if it is far closer to "religious profiling".

If you were Jewish and ran into a neo-Nazi, would you invite them to your house? Do KKK members regularly visit Black churches in the South? So what would be wrong with telling Muslim's they aren't wanted? Especially when we have mosques in the US that preach how it is the duty of every Muslim to kill infidels - like the other people outside the mosque that live in the US.

Muslim? Go visit somewhere else. You see, we can't tell the "radical fundamentalists" apart from the "moderate Muslims" that supposedly are in the majority. It's like the old rule of treating every gun as if it is loaded.

Re:As a european....

[isaac]

I've had stopovers in LAX returning from international travel. The only irritating thing was the line at the food court.

You are either a liar, or you haven't flown through LAX in a long time. Nobody who's ever transited the TBIT would ever write this.

LAX is a ridculously dysfunctional airport - easily the worst on the west coast.

-Isaac

Re:As a european....

[imsabbel]

Thats a strange way to read that post.

But if you define "us" as "bigot assholes", then i sincerely share the oppinion you claim the GP-poster had.

Re:As a european....

[feepness]

You are either a liar, or you haven't flown through LAX in a long time. Nobody who's ever transited the TBIT would ever write this.

LAX is a ridculously dysfunctional airport - easily the worst on the west coast

Just went through there last month. It took me 30 minutes to retrieve my luggage, get through customs, and grab a seat in the gate are for my connection.

I've been through a lot... maybe I'm just good at it now.

Re:As a european....

[feepness]

But if you define "us" as "bigot assholes", then i sincerely share the oppinion you claim the GP-poster had.

Not entirely sure what that means. You can replace "your opinion of us" with "your opinion of the US".

I'm just tired of the posts that start "As a European..." or "As a Canadian..." and then go on to say how crap the US is. Especially when they are going to quote a damn article and not even their own experience!

It's crap in the US? Good for you. Go somewhere else where you do like it.

Re:As a european....

[mattmarlowe]

Why should we care if you're going to travel to the US? Slashdot is tiring enough w/ all the anti-usa drivel articles to have to read more "as a european, bush sucks, usa go to hell" comments all the time. All this stuff does is make americans not want to have anything to do with europe.

Re:As a european....

[sjwest]

Lets just say I'm glad you don't work for hotel/restaurant/car hire/airline or theme park company in a FO, or BO role. - Do PLEASE read the comment with the New Zealand Herald post here.

Since when was 'disent' anti american ?

Re:As a european....

[Anonymous Coward]

You, Sir, are a fuckwit.

Re:As a european....

[JanneM]

Visiting the usa again got less desire-able. No i don't think i will be doing that conference in the US this year again.

My sentiments, exactly. Nowadays, if I can avoid a conference or symposium in the US in favor of one somewhere else I take it - and with the academic world so big, there's no shortage of high-level conferences to choose from either. There seems to be more widespread understanding of this problem lately; "roving" conferences are increasingly avoiding US venues.

Re:As a european....

[kinglink]

Sorry we can't accommodate your white Anglo-Saxon European ass. Unfortunately in our country we can't discriminate, which means we can't approve people from countries that have well established security.

We're forced to tighten the northern borders of our country which we have friendly relationships with, but the southern border needs to be an open gate, because nothing wrong ever goes down there. No one would try smuggling in anything or anyone from Mexico, right? We have to allow any cuban refugee residency in America if they get here, but hard working immigrants from other countries have to go through a million steps to get even a working visa. We will ignore the fact a black man kills a white man and claims self defense, but a white police officer, someone who has sworn to protect our people who even acts rudely to a black man, or even tries to defend himself is a racist bigoted animal that needs to be put down.

As you see we are a country that is so involved in not appearing biased that we fuck ourselves over. But at the same time I have one question. Why if we are so bad do we still have a thriving tourism industry, do people still want to come to america? We barely produce anything worthwhile, we import almost everything, so what's the point? The point is even if we suck, we're still number one, which makes me ask what's wrong with your corner of the world?

Besides with the real question is if you know about your little convention already, it's more than 2 days away, is it that you can't even be hassled enough with planning a trip more than 48 hours in advance? If that's the case we don't need your negative political ideology/hatred and contempt for our people/lazy ways. We have enough of those already here. Hell we have enough of them in our government on both sides of the isle already. Personally I say good riddens if a little inconvenience for you means you don't want to come back.

Re:As a european....

[Anonymous Coward]

Is england all that free. I think in england things are far more dangerous, as in lack of freedom, than in the US. long live your queens and princes.

Re:As a european....

[dbcad7]

Not doubting you, but if you were returning then you would have a different experience than entering as a foreigner.

The other thing which you left out is where you were coming from.

I recently took my first airline trip since 911, including travelling to Germany with a layover in Amsterdam both ways. The airport experiences including my short US domestic hop were horrible in the US compared to Amsterdam and Frankfurt. It's not bad enough to stop me from doing it again next year though.

I would think that you might take a little criticism of how we treat visitors better, considering that you have been a visitor yourself.

Re:As a european....

[geminidomino]

Since Redneck Nero gave these fuckwits the "If you're not with us, you're against us" mantra.

HTH

Re:As a european....

[Das Modell]

As is standard for Slashdot, any opinion not conforming to leftist groupthink is either a flamebait or a troll (but everyone still whines about freedom of speech).

You make a good point about being equally suspicious of everyone because "discrimination" and profiling are always wrong. I more or less agree with the rest too.

Re:As a european....

[Das Modell]

Why was this modded flamebait? You may not agree with it but that doesn't mean that it was an intentional flamebait troll. As shocking as this may sound, you are not the sole guardians of the Truth.

Besides, what the parent says is true. The Western world is littered with mosques that preach Jihad againts the infidels and the supremacy of Islam, and telling the difference between "radicals" and "moderates" is either difficult or impossible, until it's too late. And nobody wants to make the distinction, because it's much more pleasant to keep dreaming that everyone is a moderate.

Many Arab countries won't allow you to enter if you've been to Israel, but do the tolerant, enlightened guardians of the Truth ever complain about that? Well, of course not.

Re:As a european....

[monsterlemon]

Hah. Probably because the rest of us have had enough of it, lessening the queues for you. I'd never have thought the time would come when I'd prefer to travel via China than the US. But it has.

Seriously, I've been a semi-regular traveller through LAX over the past few years, and it's been a uniformly hateful experience. Outside of the immigration hall, most of the people there are great, helpful etc. -- it's the "system" that screws it up, along with the fact that LAX appears to have pretty much no way of dealing with transit passengers that doesn't involve passing outside the airport building (in the process partly justifying/explaining the immigration nonsense).

Re:As a european....

[janrinok]

"Slashdot is tiring enough w/ all the anti-usa drivel"

There is often criticism of somewhere outside of the US on this forum. Why is having the same 'tiring anti-usa drivel' any different? Ah, because you don't like it. Now do you perhaps begin to understand why the USA is no longer seen in the same light as it once was? We don't hate or dislike Americans, but we aren't too keen on what your country currently represents around the world. Since the end of the Cold War you have become a bit of a bully, and the fear that you now show for terrorists hardly fits your own belief in being 'the brave'. By all means fight terrorism, but locking yourself up and not letting anyone in isn't very sensible.

Of course you don't agree. Don't bother telling me that, but any sensible discussion would be welcome.

Re:As a european....

[feepness]

I would think that you might take a little criticism of how we treat visitors better, considering that you have been a visitor yourself.

Oh, I get it.

If an American goes somewhere and makes any criticisms, he is a ugly arrogant American.

If a European comes here and makes a criticism and the American doesn't listen to him, he is an ugly arrogant American.

That's the double standard I'm tired of.

And yeah, 90% of the crap they make you go through is pointless. Especially the liquids thing... when we fly I just slip the bottles into my pockets. They aren't metal so nothing happens. It would be ridiculously easy to get a gallon or two through strapped to your body. So I do agree... but perhaps the OP could have presented that with a little tact.

Re:As a european....

[dbcad7]

Well, I haven't heard anyone objecting to your criticisms of your experiences entering another country, because you haven't given any yet.

I perhaps have a different attitude toward visiting other countries than you... but that's ok.. I remember the trip prior to this last one, we had just got off the plane in Frankfurt, and in the airport was a smoking section, a man from the plane deliberately walked into the smoking section waving his hand in front of his face in that way the holier than thou non-smokers do.. Now I have to emphasise that he went out of his way to walk into this section.. and all I could think of was .. what is a butt head like this doing here ?.. What kind experience of culture is he going to have ? He obviously would be happier staying at home.

The US IS a great country, but having done some travelling I don't think "were all that", ok ?.. I hope you have better experiences in the future.

Re:As a european....

[feepness]

The US IS a great country, but having done some travelling I don't think "were all that", ok ?.. I hope you have better experiences in the future.

Oh, of course it's not all that here, there or anywhere. I've traveled and enjoyed it greatly. In fact, I hope to retire outside the US. There's good and bad in all places. I'm just tired of people acting like this is some inbred cesspool and their home country is god's gift. I'd feel the same way if an American said it about another country. Though for the most part I generaly don't see Americans with that attitude.

They don't understand what data security is

[MonGuSE]

"It'll all be done electronically and biometrically. And it really doesn't compromise your privacy."

Someone should shoot these people that come up with these concoctions for security solutions. Need to fly last minute to Toronto or vice versa sorry you didn't schedule it 48 hours in advance so you must be a terrorist. Give me a damn break. Then don't get me started on his convoluted assertion that it doesn't open people up to invasions of privacy or identity theft. Every additional time you have to transmit your information, every additional database with your information, every additional set of eyes that gets to look at your information is just another spot in the chain at which point information can be stolen and/or misused. We should send this guy through dressed as an Arab with a head scarf a few times and see how he feels after getting a few rectal exams for foreign objects and the verbal abuse at every stage along the way that 'suspicious' people take.

Contrary to what Bush thinks the terrorist did succeed in setting into motion the process of destroying our freedoms that this country used to stand for. After that we should put his personal information up on the bulletin board at the post office for everyone to see and ask him how he feels after someone empties out his bank accounts and owes thousands of dollars in back taxes.

Re:They don't understand what data security is

[MonGuSE]

They also don't know how biometric data works. If it can be stored, verified, compared then it can be generated, hacked, spoofed and stolen. Its all a bunch of ones and zeroes once it is stored in the computer.

Its not like they create a genetic duplicate of your thumb that they pull out and compare and even if we were that advanced and they could and did do that there is nothing keeping criminals from creating artificial limbs to replicate the limb in storage and replacing their own with it. These are people that are going to die anyways so whats the difference to them.

Re:They don't understand what data security is

[HTTP Error 403 403.9]

[T]here is nothing keeping criminals from creating artificial limbs to replicate the limb in storage and replacing their own with it.

The cost of artificial limbs might be a problem - I bet it would cost at least $6 million.

Re:They don't understand what data security is

[rio]

Someone should shoot these people that come up with these concoctions for security solutions. Public flogging perhaps. This sort of thing is already in the process of being implemented for our livestock. And while a person might think this is a great idea for cattle, the USDA is also pushing for the same type of deal for horses, fish, chickens (and at one time dogs, cats etc.)

      http://www.usda.gov/nais/[National Animal Identification System]

Geeks gone wild just following what does and doesn't work so far just from the technical/hardware aspects.Go look up the field tests of the equipment and such, you'll have a field day.

The fight over the NAIS implementation is especially a big deal in Washington state, I understand, as proponents there are pushing it hard. Those who will be affected by it are pushing equally hard.

The problems are more than just controlling/documenting movement of animals, its also about where and how this information will be stored and who will have access.... where does the money and personnel come from to deal with all this?

As a horse owner, it's starting to look like ultimately I won't be able to feed them without reporting it, and horses aren't even part of the typical US food supply. So while a person might find this a "necessary" thing for our food safety, the fact they're wanting to track and regulate the movement of species that are for all intents and purposes pets at this point... should give anyone cause to ponder what may be coming next. In the interest of "safety" and "anti-terrorism" of course.

So funny...

[FatSean]

Growing up, I graduated highschool in 1992. I was fed a whole bunch of crap about how the 'bad soviets spy on their people' and the 'bad soviets imprison people with no chance of trial' and 'bad soviets take their peoples' rights and tell them it's for security'/

How ironic that those adults who were so frothy about the USSR==bad and USA==good based on those claims, are now supporting the use of those tactics in the USA!

I asked a few of them to explain the contradiction. They said that it's better to be safe than sorry! How funny!

Re:So funny...

[Chris Burke]

Growing up, I graduated highschool in 1992. I was fed a whole bunch of crap about how the 'bad soviets spy on their people' and the 'bad soviets imprison people with no chance of trial' and 'bad soviets take their peoples' rights and tell them it's for security'/

Exactly. When I was a kid the USSR was bad because of all those things they did, and the USA was great because we didn't do any of those things.

At some point, I'm not sure when, it no longer became about what we did The USA was just magically the best no matter what simply because it's the USA. I think maybe it happened around the same time you started seeing those bumper stickers with the flag and "The Power of Pride". Because apparently if you just believe that your country is super-awesome, it will do great things. Via magic.

How are pride and wishful thinking working out for us in Iraq? Maybe if I just have more pride we'll win...

BTW, someone needs to mod the OP up some more, because that was hilarious.

Re:So funny...

[Lemmy Caution]

What's important is that the excuses are the same: the USSR had nothing against the hard-working fellow comrade, it was the enemies of socialism that were the problem. And, there really were enemies of socialism, very well-organized, funded and armed ones supported by the West, from the very earliest days of the Russian revolution. Just as in the US, the excuse happened to be based on a truth.

Re:So funny...

[rthille]

Yep, the "common patriot":
    'Sure, we reviled "them" when they did it, but "they" aren't "us", so when we do it, it's great!'

I fucking hate those flag waving morons.

I love the US because of the Constitution and the feeling that _all_ men (meaning people) are created equal, and should be given equal opportunities, not because I was born here.

I hate what we we've become in the last 6.5 years.

Re:So funny...

[scsirob]

And since you show so clearly the repetition of history, check out how the USSR is doing these day and think about how that would translate into the USA situation a couple of years down the road..

Either the next establishment will radically deal with the stupidity of the Bush administration and clean it up, or at some point the people will revolt and the USA will become a lot less United..

Re:So funny...

[LittleGuy]

Hmmmm.... so, can we see, in the near future, a ragtag group of Russian college students upsetting a group of American professionals in a sports event?

Disappointed but not surprised

[claes]

I am honestly disappointed, although not surprised. But I wonder if the direction ever will change..? It might be that I will go to the US for business if it is required, but for pleasure, very, very unlikely as long as this continues... I am seriously wondering if things will turn around during my lifetime, I hope so because I would like to go to the US again, just not under these circumstances.

USSA

[dogsbestfriend]

Yeah, this was a requirement for visiting the old communist countries, wasn't it? And that was the differentiating factor between the 'free' countries and the rest of the world. Whats next? Secret police and wiretaps without warrants? Prison sentences without trial? Gulags? oh wait..

Try visiting Australia

[cdrguru]

You need an "electronic visa" to get in.

Try leaving Japan sometime. They charge to leave.

The US so far hasn't been doing much in this area and it certainly high time we start. $1 entrance fee would easily pay for lots and lots of border inspectors.

Re:Try visiting Australia

[Brobock]

Try leaving Japan sometime. They charge to leave.

I just left Japan about a week ago, I was not charged. I do this annually and never been charged to leave. I am also a US citizen however.

Re:Try visiting Australia

[amuro98]

*sigh* that's an AIRPORT TAX. Other places have them too. Even the locals/citizens have to pay it. It has nothing to do with your visa, your travelplans, you being a foreigner (or a citizen) or your privacy.

Now if you want something identical here, why not attack the "gaijin card" ID they make all longterm foreigners get, now with mandatory fingerprinting. Even then, you weren't required to tell the government that you wanted to go visit Kyoto over the weekend... Sheesh.

Re:Try visiting Australia

[maztuhblastah]

Try leaving Japan sometime. They charge to leave.

I call shenanigans. Either they've changed the policy since I last visited (2005), or you got screwed by immigration....

Re:Try visiting Australia

[bruguiea]

You have to pay to enter the United States too. Whether you are entering with a visa or without (Tourist from Visa Waiver Country), you have to fill in an I-94 or I-94W form.

See for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_visas
"TN-1 applicants at land ports-of-entry must also pay a modest I-94 fee."

and http://www.oiss.msu.edu/depts_visasTN.php
"the $6 fee for each I-94 card"

This fee is already included in the ticket, but if you enter by land, you probably have to pay it.

Re:Try visiting Australia

[caranha]

Oh, but you do charge to get in the USA.

100$ upfront for a visa interview. Even if it's a transit visa. Even if you end up not getting the visa afterall.

So you already have an entrance fee.

Re:Try visiting Australia

[Acer500]

The US so far hasn't been doing much in this area and it certainly high time we start. $1 entrance fee would easily pay for lots and lots of border inspectors. Oh, I see... you don't know that the fee for a US Visa (at least in Uruguay) is a hundred freaking dollars? And that you need a visa for a plane IN TRANSIT in the US? (That is, if like me, you don't have a particular interest in visiting the US but want to go to Canada for example and the plane stops in Chicago or wherever).

Air Canada got my custom this year, I'll sadly probably skip an event in New York later; I couldn't visit the US side of the Niagara Falls with a valid Canadian visa... I hope I'm not the only one and that they're losing billions in tourism. The sad thing is, I like the US and would like to visit.

Re:Try visiting Australia

[quacking duck]

I have visited Australia, thanks. I arrived there less than a week before the US started invading Iraq in 2003. You make the "electronic visa" sound like some nefarious scheme, as if it excuses what that US is planning to do. Nonsense.

An electronic visa is simply a convenient way of applying for a visa online, without visiting your local Aussie embassy or consulate. I didn't even need to provide printed proof that my visa application had been approved; when I arrived their computers had it linked to my passport number.

Your complaint against Japan seems like an airport improvement charge--such costs are often included ("hidden") in ticket prices, but can be collected separately (New Zealand springs to mind). Think of it this way--tax added to the sticker price at the cashier's (as done in Canada and the US), or already included in the labelled cost (like the VAT in UK, or GST in Australia).

Feel free to implement your $1 entrance fee--it will NOT offset the costs associated with collecting the new fee, the longer lineups, and pissing off visitors more (resulting in yet fewer visitor dollars). Note that both Australia and Japan see the vast majority of incoming travellers arrive by plane, so then don't even need the numbers of border inspectors that the US does (bordering Canada and Mexico).

Re:Try visiting Australia

[Anonymous Coward]

I was flying within Canada (I am Canadian) from Ottawa to Vancouver and had a stop over in Edmonton. Before I was allowed to go through the security check point (WTF in country flight transfer) I had to pay $50 for the extra security costs.

Re:Try visiting Australia

[vertinox]

Try leaving Japan sometime. They charge to leave.

Hey... Um... That is the "Air port tax" scam that most Japanese travel agencies have standard. Since most Japanese have a hard time disagreeing, the fee is usually unquestioned. If you simply tell them "no" then they'll usually drop it since they will often try to put the "tax" onto your fees labeled "Los Angeles Airport Tax" when you know good and well that California has no taxes for travel through their airports.

Re:Try visiting Australia

[Xyrus]

From the US:

"All you people are belong to you."

~X~

Ha yeah right

[ufpdom]

As a frequent business traveller who gets 24-48 hour notices for work in other states this will not fly and all us business travellers could be flagged.

Re:Ha yeah right

[mr_exit]

That's heaps of notice. I was put on a plane from New Zealand to San Fran with 6 hours notice for a business trip last year, then my travel plans changed as I was in the air, and twice while I was there.

This kind of proposal scares the crap out of me.

I call Bullsh*t

[Etherwalk]

> "And it really doesn't compromise your privacy."

I don't know if the man should be charged with high treason or criminal stupidity.

Re:I call Bullsh*t

[SpecBear]

"Shun the tyranny of the or and embrace the genius of the and."

I don't know who first said that, but he's brilliant.

Smoke Screen

[Joebert]

When the system indicates that 1/4 of the population has registered to travel impossible schedules, I'm not going to be flying that day.

Ah the wonders of a Democratic congress...

[samwh]

It is good know that the 2006 elections changed the policy of Congress so much.

Re:Ah the wonders of a Democratic congress...

[Kopiok]

Actually, Congress is split pretty evenly. The Senate is basically split perfectly between Democrats and Republicans, and there's only 31 more Democrats in the House than there are Republicans. (Out of 433)

Bold Face Lies

[Domo-Sun]

I'm getting tired of people telling us they're going to invade our privacy but it's not privacy invading.

Re:Bold Face Lies

[KillerCow]

I'm getting tired of people telling us they're going to invade our privacy but it's not privacy invading.

I did not blockquote you, and this is not a reply.

Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[adnonsense]

... but the way things are going, in a few years time the only foreigners visiting the US will be crawling up over the southern border, or brought in on CIA charter flights.

Me, last year I had an invite to go to the US - I've never been but would truly like to go - but was in two minds because it overlapped with something else - and after taking a look at what it might involve in terms of proving I'm not a terrorist (I have an old-fashioned paper passport) I gave it a miss.

And purleease, when I fly long-haul I like to take a big bottle of water to stop me dehydrating. A effing bottle of HO for chrissake. Whaddy think I'm gonna do with it, split out the hydrogen and ignite it? Yet I can buy a bottle of whisky at the duty free.

(sorry about the rant, feel free to mod me down, but I have to get it out of my system before I go on a rampage on my next flight).

Re:Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[purple_cobra]

Land of the Free, they call it? Yeah, right.
A friend of mine emigrated to the USA a few years back and has offered me floorspace for as long as I'd like to visit, but shortly after he left the 'security' applied to air-travellers went bananas; as such it looks like I'll be unable to take him up on this generous offer as I could happily live my whole life without subjecting myself to minute observation by people who, before this whole US 'terrorism' debacle (one event! We lived with the threat of IRA bombings for *decades*!), would have been sweeping floors and flipping burgers, but are now given actual *power*. Utter madness. The lunatics have truly taken over the asylum.

Re:Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[Eli Gottlieb]

(one event! We lived with the threat of IRA bombings for *decades*!) If the United States really cared about protecting itself from terrorism, it would ask the three 'I-Countries': Ireland, India, and Israel. They've done nothing of the sort. That says something, doesn't it?

Re:Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[ptbarnett]

And purleease, when I fly long-haul I like to take a big bottle of water to stop me dehydrating. A effing bottle of HO for chrissake. Whaddy think I'm gonna do with it, split out the hydrogen and ignite it? Yet I can buy a bottle of whisky at the duty free.

It only took a month or so of this stupidity for TSA to realize how dumb it was. But of course, they can't completely roll it back -- that would be admitting they were wrong.

The "compromise" is really profitable for the airport vendors: you can buy a bottle of water (or anything else you want to drink) once you are inside the secured area. In many airports, there are vending machines stocked with bottled water for just this reason. They aren't cheap ($2.00 apiece), but it beats the choices once you are on the plane.

Another alternative: take an empty bottle past security and fill it at a water fountain inside the secured area. Yes, really. Just show the empty bottle at the checkpoint, so you don't hold things up when they see the bottle in your bag and have to search it.

Re:Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[Petrushka]

after taking a look at what it might involve in terms of proving I'm not a terrorist (I have an old-fashioned paper passport) I gave it a miss.

Out of interest, I've been warned by an immigration official in my own country to avoid travelling to the US because of the type of passport I have. That startled me.

And purleease, when I fly long-haul I like to take a big bottle of water to stop me dehydrating. A effing bottle of HO for chrissake.

Be fair, now, it was the Brits that started the business of prohibiting water on aeroplanes, not the Americans. And it was they that forced it on the rest of the world (as the Americans so often do). Though, not that it matters where the paranoia originated, really. I just miss being able to go on domestic flights in my own country without having to go through any security checks whatsoever, other than the flight staff checking that I have a valid ticket, which was the case just two years ago. Alas, no more.

Re:Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[janrinok]

I applaud you. But I'm not sure that such a sensible suggestion will be welcome here on /. :-)

Re:Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[Anonymous Coward]

we are doing it the Israeli way - building walls burning down villages, targeted assassinations, et cetera. I'm sure that Mossad is helping the CIA, FBI and NSA daily (if only to get a chance to spy on us - all three of those agencies list Hebrew and Yiddish as "languages critical to the national security." Swedes aren't spying on us, it seems...). Oh, don't forget their track record of killing Americans who have sympathies with the Palestinians and are there doing aid work. Caring about the plight of the Palestinians makes you a Nazi anyway.

how about the British way of dealing with things in Northern Ireland? raid houses and lock people up on spurious charges for months or years? Interrogate them by holding them out the side of helecopters? blind fold them in said helicopter and toss them out, though you're only a few feet from the ground? hold unloaded pistols to their heads telling them you're going to kill them, then dry firing in order to cause nervous breakdowns?

I'm not familiar with India's methods, but I'm sure they're not any better.

Re:Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[Ardipithecus]

I have takes a HO on a plane w no problem

Re:Sorry if this sounds like a troll...

[adnonsense]

I have takes a HO on a plane w no problem

Penetrate her airspace, did you? Never mind, stupid Slashdot software swallowed my raised "2" (as in "H2O").

Totally speechless

[Shadowruni]

I'm terrified of this as it's not a small change. This is a fundamental change in American society and I have to say it this actually comes to pass I can see things going downhill in a bad and FAST way. The worst part is that there is ample proof of this in our society right now. I can get a letter, this letter says I must do what they ask of me and can't tell anyone that I've got the letter or what I've been told to do. Merely the remote possibility of being labeled a terrorist despite not having the expertise, resources, funding, or simple smarts is enough to have you "removed" from the system and shuttled to illegal prisons where you WISH it was Jack Bauer interrogating you.
I'm an American and at one point served in uniform. Loved it... would do it again if I could...
The scary thing is about this that anyone in Congress who speaks out against it is SOOOOO unlikely to be re-elected. None seem to have the testicualar or ovarian fortitude to say, "Damn the torpedos! Let's make this right!"
In 1984 (yes you knew it was coming) MiniLove was truely scary since they had watched Winston for seven years... before the book even started. I worry when I see things like this as I know it means that the State is taking rights away... I've yet to see taken rights given back. I'm not preaching the overthrow of the government, merely a reminder of it's purpose. I think that's been forgotten since they've learned the best mind control methods.
Watch a spoiled brat become famous for no real reason at all. Watch same spoiled brat get banged in grainy green NV. Watch her cry like the little spoiled cow she is in the back of a police car. The people were so focused on this crap, that we missed multiple bombing and atrocities worldwide. We missed the chance to fight this sort of thing.
Before anyone says I'm too high and mighty... I was in the mass I just wrote about. I cheered when she cried. Does that make me bad? No. Just part of the flock as we all are.

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have just one thing to say:

"Papers, please."

Re:Well...

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Ausweis bitte! in the original German.

Re:Well...

[Lord_Breetai]

I have just one thing to say:

"Papers, please."

That's the first thing that came to mind when I read the subject.

Re:Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

Good lord, this is scary. Happened to me once in Germany (out of 21 people with me they managed to ask for ausweis ONLY to the foreigners) and once in Switzerland (a friend of mine said a ridiculously wrong sentence in german. They heard, surrounded us and said "ausweis bitte"). Fortunately, we are all legal residents here :)

Dear Congress.

[crhylove]

If you are really planning on continuing the police state that we already are increasingly living in, I plan to travel. THE FUCK OUT OF HERE.

PS. Good luck ruling the world with a country full of illegal immigrants, mindless corporate automatons and military personnel. I think that's all you'll have left after the rest of us leave.

Re:Dear Congress.

[WCLPeter]

If you are really planning on continuing the police state that we already are increasingly living in, I plan to travel. THE FUCK OUT OF HERE.

Just where are you planning on going? Really?

It's not 1498 anymore. You can't just hop on a boat with a group of disgruntled people with views similar to yours, find (or conquer) some land and set up a country.

On today's Earth, there is not one single piece of land left that isn't claimed by some government or another. Well okay, maybe perhaps the polar regions but I seriously doubt you'll get too many people (except perhaps some polar biologists) who'd want to hang out with the penguins or polar bears.

That means you're emigrating to another country. Question is, which one? Unless you speak a language other than English, your choices are going to be very limited. I don't know if you've noticed this but there's been an unsettling trend in recent years for English speaking countries, hell even the non-English speaking ones, to be on the fast track to curtail or limit the freedoms and liberties our parents and grandparents once enjoyed.

Sure, some of the countries on this track are moving slower than others, so you might have a comfortable enough life for a while. Chances are though, you'd be looking to move again in a few years.

Now you could stay in your country and try to fix things. Of course, unless your very rich, or very well connected (or even better, both) you probably won't have much luck doing anything other than making token changes that don't mean much.

Now assuming you aren't *very* rich and *very* well connected, if you do go to the trouble of trying to make life better for your fellow citizens you're going to get yourself on a lot of "no *insert activity here*" listings and probably some extra harassment from the agents of your elected officials. Perhaps a bit of extra scrutiny at tax time; audit candidates are all chosen at random right. Or maybe you'll have some deep dark secret you'd really rather not have exposed to the world suddenly be the major headline on CNN.

Still, who knows, you might just be the person who can convince the American "gun nuts" to actually uphold that whole 2nd Amendment thing they keep harping on and on about. You know, the part they always seem to forget when talking about their "rights". The part where they are entitled to keep their guns so long as when the government tries to take away everyones freedom like this, they would forcibly stop them.

But I digress, that's all off topic. Now, where was I?

Oh yes, just where do you plan on going? Really?

Pete...

Re:Dear Congress.

[crhylove]

I don't know. Excellent Question. There are some countries in Europe though that at least pay slightly more window dressing homage to personal liberty. I agree though, it's only a stop gap measure, and I don't really WANT to learn Swedish, or Spanish or something.

rhY

Russia's Old Fashioned

[slarrg]

In Russia's old-fashioned system, as an American I have to register my travel in Russia as I travel. But in the USSA they're going to require 48 hours advance notice. What an improvement.

Re:Russia's Old Fashioned

[munpfazy]

That was my thought exactly. Got to hand it to the US, bravely trying our best not to let Russia beat us to the title of "industrialized nation most annoying to foreign travelers."

I'd wager that we're not quite as frustrating as Russia yet, at least from the point of view of EU citizens, but we're making good time.

Re:Russia's Old Fashioned

[Cyberax]

Actually, you don't need to register your travel. I'm Russian and I've moved to another country without registering my travel plans. It was also true in USSR - you could travel everywhere inside USSR borders (and outside secret military facilities) without any trouble.

Re:Russia's Old Fashioned

[slarrg]

You don't need to register your travel but foreigners who travel into Russia must register their travel in each city when they arrive there.

Where to travel?

[freedumb2000]

This would be even more restrictive than it used to be travelling to East Germany, which was not really fun either. I feel less and less a free human who can move around this world, that i was born into, freely. Just when you thought it couldn't get much worse (so soon!)...

Say good bye to 24 Hour service

[thief_inc]

I am a Field Service Engineer for a major Biomedical company. Basically if one of our machines break, I will be there within 24 hours to fix it. We have many instruments nation wide. It is impossible for us to register 48 hours in advance. These machines are used at Blood Banks, and in cross matching. They would seriously jeapordize the lives of people by passing this.

Re:Say good bye to 24 Hour service

[Fuji Kitakyusho]

Just wanted to chime in with a similar sentiment. Though perhaps not as life-threatening as yours, I am a professional who often travels to the US on short notice to respond to machinery failures in the energy sector (oil, mining, etc.) Theoretically, such heavy industries (and by extension, the US economy) stand to lose significantly by restricting business travel in such a manner.

Re:Say good bye to 24 Hour service

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense. Places like that will have to buy redundant equipment and adjust their contingency plans to reflect that service personnel won't be arriving for at least 48 hours.

It's a pretty weak plan to start with if it depends on flying in a service tech on such short notice.

It's another case of the loss of personal privacy being a benefit to the corporations - in this case, the companies that make a few extra bucks selling extra equipment to provide for contingencies.

Re:Say good bye to 24 Hour service

[Ash-Fox]

I guess they'll just have to employ more people.

Speaking of which, isn't that a good thing?

Soooo... how is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does complaining about the evil Chinese goverment still help in distracting yourself from the problems in your own country?

It does? ... Good for you! :)

I am confused...

[Karem Lore]

I thought the whole point of the US/UK invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was to provide the freedoms that the West enjoyed to those people. At least that was the delusion imposed on the citizens as far as I am concerned.

The irony of trying to stop a clerical regime with iron grip is so absurd it is almost funny. These clerics didn't just rise straight to the top, then chipped at freedoms until the point where there was none, and then govern in a way that prevents people having their own ideas...Is this where we are heading in the West? Maybe Middle-East style life is our Future, not our past...

This nonsense is costing us jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

People don't want to travel to the US of A anymore because they're more afraid of the customs goons than the terrorists.

Scientists don't want to come to conferences. Families don't want to go to Disney World.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id =2&objectid=10436518

In a recent poll of international travellers, commissioned by Discover America Partnership, a coalition of US tourist organisations, 70 per cent of respondents said they feared US officials more than terrorists or criminals. Another 66 per cent worried they would be detained for some minor blunder, such as wrongly filling out an official form or being mistaken for a terrorist, while 55 per cent say officials are "rude."

Are we safer? There's no data to prove it. Are innocent people suffering? Yes. Even Senator Kennedy got on the no-fly list.

It's stupid. It's costing us jobs. It's costing us the liberty our fathers died to preserve.

Re:This nonsense is costing us jobs

[commodoresloat]

Are innocent people suffering? Yes. Even Senator Kennedy got on the no-fly list. Jeez, you could have picked a better example of an "innocent" person...

Re:This nonsense is costing us jobs

[D'Arque Bishop]

People don't want to travel to the US of A anymore because they're more afraid of the customs goons than the terrorists.

It's interesting that you mention that... this morning I was actually coming back to the US from a business trip to Mexico (which I had 24 hours notice of beforehand, but that's been discussed elsewhere by others). As I was waiting in line to have my passport checked, I noticed these LCD screens were showing one of those "informative" videos showing what to do when going through Immigrations/Customs, with "light-hearted" commentary from the hosts. The thing that stood out in my mind was when they showed an example of an older gentleman meeting an agent and showing his passport, while the video said, "Answer all of the officer's questions." The expression on the man's face was not an expression of bland calm one normally sees in these videos. The expression he had was more a quiet fear than anything else.

After seeing that, somehow I'm not surprised by the results of that poll you cited. I'm sure it was unintended, but still...

Re:This nonsense is costing us jobs

[CoolGopher]

Personally, as a non-US citizen, I would feel safer about travelling to say, Iran, than the US as things are right now.
I think I'd have a good chance of both entering AND leaving Iran. With the US I consider both doubtful. And I haven't even done anything that would "flag" me.

I pray you keep this madness confined to your own country!

Re:This nonsense is costing us jobs

[jon287]

I remember once long ago passing thru the iron curtain to visit east germany before the fall of the wall. It was a very peculiar sense of unease. That something might just happen. That you might not make it back somehow; that you were just out of the protective reach of civilization and into something a bit terrifying.
  I celebrated with the rest of Germany when that nonsense ended and thought that this would now be a thing reserved for strange little bannana republics and whacked theocracies.

Now I see this same fear creeping into my european friends!? About my own homeland!? What in all hell is going on here!?!?!

Re:This nonsense is costing us jobs

[Raisey-raison]

I think that post 9/11 there is an obsession with security that has gone way over the top and is now endangering US economic interests itself. There was a recent survey in which the US was rated the most unfriendly country to visitors. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1121-02.ht m I have met many visitors who love the USA and have been vacationing here every year or two saying that the process to visit has become miserable and that now they are reconsidering coming here. People don't like being treated like criminals - we so often forget that. Now even the old grandmother is treated like a criminal. We suspect all visitors of perhaps wanting to permanently stay in the US even if they come very rich countries themselves and even if they have great jobs. I met some rich lawyers who were treated as possible future illegals - needless to say they are thinking of new countries to spend their cash in.

The discussion on further limiting visits to the USA by visa waiver countries further makes a bad situation worse. US economic growth will suffer. It will no longer be seen as a great place to do business. Again I have seen this first hand. Not long ago the US was considered the place to be for a high tech business. Now people aren't sure its worth the hassle. If we turn the USA into a fortress, it may end up being a poor one. Ironically economic weakness in the long term will make the US much more vulnerable to attack than a lack of short term security measures. This thing also reminds me how other countries like the UK and Australia are poaching the best international students. Those students are a big reason for the economic and cultural vibrancy of the US. We are in danger of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs because we are so fixated on protecting the goose.

Re:This nonsense is costing us jobs

[ScrewMaster]

I pray you keep this madness confined to your own country!

It's way too late for that, I'm afraid.

And when other countries do the same...

[wbean]

We're going to love it when other countries start applying the same rules to US citizens who want to visit. Right now when you go to Chile you have to buy a visa at the airport for $100, payable in cash, before you can enter the country. How was the price set? Well, it's the same amount we charge Chileans visiting the US.

Want to go across the border to see Niagra Falls from the Canadian side. I can see it now, the highway will be lined with booths with computers to allow you to 'register' your itinerary before you can cross the bridge.

When will we wake up and realize that this serves no purpose.

Re:And when other countries do the same...

[Anonymous Coward]

In the Philippines, you have to pay $100 before you can be even eligible to apply for a visa. Whether you're approved or denied, you can no longer get your $100 back. Considering we're supposed to be allies and lot's of Filipinos fought alongside the American soldiers during World War 2. Not only that, only Filipino World War 2 Veterans are the single group who are not eligible for veteran compensation.

...but does it compromise my privacy?

[Anonymous Coward]

And it really doesn't compromise your privacy.

Wow, I'm convinced. Sign me up.

WTF happened to the Shining City?

[lelitsch]

But in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it and see it still.

Ronald Reagan
Farewell Address to the Nation
Oval Office
January 11, 1989

Amazing how far the Republican Party has moved in 18 years.

Re:WTF happened to the Shining City?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same old story, same old song and dance. The current Republicans want the walls Reagan spoke of and a $5,000 donation that proves a man's will to get into the city. In this age of terrorism you think they want to take a man's word? I mean, it's not like a terrorist could come up with $5k.

THis is why HSA should be disbanded

[geekoid]

immediately. they are nothing more then another layer of bureaucracy that does nothing to stop terrorism.

That money need to go to the CIA/NSA/FBI and to coming up with a good foreign policy.

HSA was created to create some confusion and allow an agency to get around pesky rules established to protect our rights.

Re:THis is why HSA should be disbanded

[Hatta]

HSA was created to create some confusion and allow an agency to get around pesky rules established to protect our rights.

HSA? Do you mean DHS?

Yes, posting AC ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when did /. change its' subtitle to: News for nerds. Stuff about the USA. ..?

Yes, I do know that /. sits in the USA, but for a long time the actual geek/scientific/technical news are just vanishing ... US politics (more or less indirectly) dominate the news. Tbh, this is just boring/annoying. If we got a slow news day, why don't just post less stories?

That's easy to fix

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll just cross out all my business in the USA from now on. There's money elsewhere. Bye, thanks for all the unnecessary frisks at the airport.

Reply to previous posters

[deblau]

This is for those who say that soon US citizens will have domestic travel restrictions. You'll be happy to know that the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment,* while long the laughing stock of the other Clauses for being largely read out of the Constitution entirely, was resurrected in 1999 by the Supreme Court for the very narrow purpose of, you guessed it, guaranteeing the right to travel. Any law passed by Congress that infringes this right would likely be found unconstitutional.**

* Not to be confused with the Privileges and Immunities Clause from Article IV.
** For those of you paying very close attention, the doctrine was revived in obiter dicta, at least insofar as it applies to travel between the States. Still, even under the rationale of the Slaughterhouse Cases, I think it likely that the Court would find this a fundamental right. Of course, we won't know for sure until and unless the law is passed and a case tried...

Re:Reply to previous posters

[element-o.p.]

Be that as it may, our current president seems intent upon trampling all over the Bill of Rights and the articles of the Constitution itself. Maybe I'm just cynical, but somehow I don't think that a government that:

1) allowed the NSA monitoring program to continue in spite of the fourth amendment, and
2) determined that since the Constitution only prohibits suspending a writ of habeas corpus rather than explicitly granting a writ of habeas corpus, then a writ of habeas corpus is not guaranteed by the Constitution

...is going to get all worked up over a (relatively) obscure interpretation of the 14th amendment.

I hope I'm wrong, but the evidence so far suggests otherwise.

Re:Reply to previous posters

[quenda]

You'll be happy to know that the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment,...

Is this the same toothless constitution that supposedly guarantees the right to a speedy trial?

Re:Reply to previous posters

[Anonymous Coward]

The US government already dodged this. Leaving or entering isn't illegal, but doing anything in another country is. For example, suppose you rent a hotel room in another country. Oops those are US dollars you're spending (whether directly or by buying foreign currency with them), in support of another nation's economy. That's within the Federal government's jurisdiction, and they can decide it's illegal. OK, so you go to stay with a friend instead? Oops. Any alien (ie, non American) could be an "unauthorised person" for the purposes of existing enacted (and never found unconstitutional) law. You are already forbidden from talking to them, or hanging out with them.

A written constitution is worthless. No-one cares what it says on the piece of paper. The piece of paper won't rescue you, can't shield you, and has no influence over the actual day-to-day workings of your government. If you want a good government you must be prepared to /rise up/ against tyranny. If you say "Well, we're guaranteed not to have tyranny, it says so on this piece of paper - this must just be a minor temporary inconvenience" then your fate is already sealed.

How does one?

[Anonymous Coward]

how does one become specialised in homeland security? they have schools for this?

lol

No travel plans in China

[spooje]

I'd just like to point out as an American living in China I've never been required to tell the government where I plan to travel other than to tell them where I work, but that was only to get my visa. When I want to go on trips I just take off. I've never had a waiting period to buy plane or train tickets.

Re:No travel plans in China

[timmarhy]

china, land of the free.

Re:No travel plans in China

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure that China's political prisoners share your views on Chinese freedoms. As long as your serving China's communist party they'll never bother you. Try crossing the line, just a bit, and see what happens.

Re:No travel plans in China

[dbIII]

china, land of the free.

Comparitively speaking that is true. A friend is about to visit a part of China not far from North Korea - how is that for an obvious comparison? They haven't held any Australians without without charge or trial for long periods either, although they certainly do hold political prisoners like the USA does. As for state sanctioned torture and the use of the death penalty they are not far ahead of the USA. There are a lot of similarities between the current attitudes in China and those of the USA in 2000.

Re:No travel plans in China

[glesga_kiss]

I'm sure that China's political prisoners share your views on Chinese freedoms.

What about America's political prisoners? The hundreds of people who have different views on church and state as well as morality and are being flown about by the CIA? Many of them haven't done anything but are held without trial because their beliefs are deemed a threat.

You guys really haven't noticed the changes over the past 40 years, have you?

This is great idea for stopping terrorists.

[Morky]

If we just ask the terrorists where they will be staying and what their plans are, we will have no difficulties thwarting their plans. These are pious folk - they wouldn't lie.

Re:This is great idea for stopping terrorists.

[PhrankW]

Yeah, remember the two 9/11 highjackers who were staying with an FBI informant, I'm sure this new plan would have stopped them. Once again, these half-assed facists have come up with a "plan" to cut our liberties. And, once again they are so quanitatively challenged as to not realize it would be unenforceable. PhrankW

This is Side Five...

[jefu]

Obligatory obscure quote:

This is Side Five. Follow in your book and repeat after me as we learn three new words in Turkish: Towel, Bath, Border.... May I see your passport, Please.

"And it really doesn't compromise your privacy"

[cwaters]

Anytime you see the word "really" in a statment like that, I find it generally to be false. "I really didn't think it tasted that bad.", "I really wanted to help that homeless person but all I had was a 5.", or "I really didn't mean to be rude but I was just really pissed off." You get the point.

Oooh, that makes it sooo much better...

[Anonymous Coward]

* Non-US Citizens have never (as in, "ever") enjoyed the full protection of US law (save for illegal immigrants, but that's a whole other argument, as we're talking only ostensibly here).

Right, mostly because we made forced internment camps and whatnot as knee-jerk reactions in times of war. While true, that doesn't mean it's a good idea, or even that it was legal.

I mean, if you were talking about, say, welfare rights or something, I could understand why foreigners don't get those. When we're talking about human rights (freedom of association, a 1st amendment right), or habeas corpus and due process, I get a lot less agreeable about denying them to anyone. Even denying them to the damn terrorists, who I'd like to gut with a rusty spoon for having caused all this crap.

I really, really am not going to agree with anyone who wants to create a class of 2nd class people in our legal justice system.

* Proposed? Great - so what branch of government is DHS again, and when did they get to create/codify law?

It's usually better to object before a bill gets voted on than after. As for when they got to create law, I don't know, but they seem to have a great record of ignoring it when convenient. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the courts constantly trying to coerce the DoJ into following silly anachronisms like the due process clause of the US Constitution.

Re:Oooh, that makes it sooo much better...

[Original Replica]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, "

hmmm I don't see any mention of citizenship there. The GP must not have read the writings that inspried our becoming "the US" or he would understand that those rights and protections under the law are granted to every one. Of course it took our country a long time to recogize that those rights (naturally) belong to blacks and women and gays. Maybe someday they will belong to foreigners too.

Re:Oooh, that makes it sooo much better...

[Anonymous Coward]

"The GP must not have read the writings that inspried our becoming "the US" or he would understand that those rights and protections under the law are granted to every one."

That is OK if you *are* one of the "US", for the rest who fall into the "THEM" category obviously no such rights exist... besides, this is just the icing on the cake.. I decided never to travel to the "US" once fingerprints and photographs became compulsory...

Aren't they 23 years late with this?

[rrohbeck]

Orwell wasn't all that far off.

Re:Aren't they 23 years late with this?

[tomstdenis]

Shut up you unoriginal flake of a human being. OMG it's orwell, no it's some other cliche end of the world despair. You voted for those people. Here's a tip, take responsibility for your nation. Organize educational debates, don't put up with the riff-raff of cheap shots and empty sentiment. Get the population to actually weigh the issues on more than "which one appeals to my righteous ignorant sense of direction best."

Frankly, you all deserve the shit that happens there. So do us Canadians. Where I have the advantage [in particular] is that I don't care about the future. So as long as the fourth Reich doesn't come after me it's a-ok in my books.

Tom

Re:Aren't they 23 years late with this?

[russotto]

_I_ didn't vote for these people. And I will not take responsibility for that which is not under my control.

Get the population to actually weigh the issues on more than "which one appeals to my righteous ignorant sense of direction best."

Sure, just as soon as I'm finished squaring the circle and holding back the tide.

Thank you, America!

[DF5JT]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity of seeing your country many times between 1992 and 1998, travelling all over the country, seeing Lake Michigan, walking on Broadway, seeing the Capitol, admiring broads in Santa Monica, falling in love in San Francisco, gambling in Vegas and being stranded in Kansas. Meeting online friends from usenet, from business and family.

The only thing I filed online back then was a confirmation of my meeting with some broad from San Francisco I met in alt.drunken.bastards

I pity young people, wanting to see the Land of the Free, the country of opportunity and having to see what the USA stands for these days. Thank $DEITY America has the amazing capability of reinventing herself and I hope she makes proper use of that capability very soon.

The obligation of registering for travel is the summary of everything that I would never have associated with the US.

What's wrong with you these days, America?

Re:Thank you, America!

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with you these days, America?

Damn foreigners.

But it appears we are on the road towards fixing that problem.

Re:Thank you, America!

[badzilla]

Amen to that... certainly it's a great place to visit, top of my list in fact. I've had such great times in America and I suspect I still would. But now the process of actually entering the country is just too much effort and unpleasantness so I don't go there any more. Why not just flat-out admit you're finished with foreigners taking their vacations in America, save everyone the trouble.

Confudle me silly

[Hucko]

"Deine Ausweiskarte ablichten, bitte

Your badge make a blueprint, please (thanks, Google Translate!) is this just a grammatical problem?

Doesn't compromise privacy?

[necro2607]

"And it really doesn't compromise your privacy."

Registering my personal trip plans with the government doesn't compromise my privacy? Fuck off. What a bloody joke.

Show me your papers

[Anonymous Coward]

"Show me your travel papers! And your travel plans and hotel vouchers!"

In Soviet Russia.... awe shucks. It's not even funny anymore.

shagging the foreigners yet again

[Anonymous Coward]

Fools, i say if Americans agree to this !
The 21 century way is to check on the spot if required...

At some point, this will hit the pocket books; just like the stupid
dragonian rules for student visas are hitting american unviversities now in the pocket book.
Afterall, the U.S.A is not the only country to vacation, study and do business.
Say 2 to 5 years and they'll extend this to Americans.
Next people who attend protest or who oppose some government policies would
be gaged from speaking and banned from travelling; or simply discouraged in extremis.

Wrong approach

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they could try and solve the terrorism problem in a different aproach:

Instead of making it harder for them to try and attack USA they could change USA image towards them so that they don`t feel angry anymore.

Fight the terrorist, not the means to achieve terrorism.

BTW, I`m posting this as AC because I`m gonna try to get a work visa to USA in a few weeks.

Another reason I invest in foreign stocks

[AK Marc]

I traveled to China last year. I talked to people there that tried to buy things from companies in the US but were unable to go to the US. They bought from Europe instead. One of the largest makers of networking gear got that way because the prices on US produced gear was high, and the import/export restrictions pretty much made it illegal to sell many versions of the products in foreign countries (encryption and such). The business travelers can't get in. The US sets up artificial barriers to prevent foreigners from buying US made gear. The end result is that money just flows out of the US, increasing the trade deficit and harming domestic companies. It just seems like such moves are economic suicide. I can't understand why we continue hurt ourselves with our immigration policies.

Re:Another reason I invest in foreign stocks

[qzulla]

The end result is that money just flows out of the US, increasing the trade deficit and harming domestic companies.

That's ok. We'll just make new laws to deal with it.

qz

Re:Another reason I invest in foreign stocks

[SoulRider]

This is what Reagonomics (a.k.a. Trickle Down Economics) is, its a spend, spend, spend policy. All with the hope that who you give the money to will be charitible enough with it to put it back into the economy. This sort of "Free Money" policy is ok except that it seems to attract bottom feeders who only want to exploit this naive policy. There also seems to be no guarantee that the money will be put back into the economy via investments into new production, education or venture capital (this may be the smaller government part of the policy, I sure hope not). This sort of policy can create a situation where money can be funneled to small groups of people very quickly, I would like to think this was not the reason this policy was drafted. In theory trickle down economics looks good, but there really is a lot of room for abuse in this policy. There really needs to be specific checks written into the policy to ensure that the money the government is giving away is being re-invested back into the ecomony. Otherwise you create a very dangerous situation.

What about time travels?

[ifchairscouldtalk]

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this kind of travels?

My brain hurts

[Anonymous Coward]

This is insane and totally lame. OMG PONIES.

LOL dood that sucks.

I just recommend reading Bruce Schneier's opinion.

[chiraz90210]

Rare risk and overreactions. A great article on human psychology and our "failures" inside our own brain: http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0706.html

Two words - Las Vegas

[Anonymous Coward]

The big wigs in Vegas will make sure this goes nowhere.

Just think of when they get the system perfected..

[hawleyg]

Just think of when they get the system perfected - They'll use it on all Americans. :)

Slashdot Overeacts... Again

[m_evanchik]

People really need to RTFA before commenting. These restrictions would apply to countries whose citizens can alreadyenter the country without a visa, and would still be able to enter without a visa with the new requirements. So the new requirement would require that they tell us they are planning on coming into the country before they do. Still a lot less hassle than getting a travel visa.

Don't you call ahead when you are visiting friends in another country? That's all this requirement essentially says:
Call us before you come by.

Re:Slashdot Overeacts... Again

[wzzzzrd]

Don't you call ahead when you are visiting friends in another country? That's all this requirement essentially says: Call us before you come by.

and that's a stupid requirement. no friend of mine wouldn't let me in just because i did not call ahead, that's why i call them FRIENDS. sorry, your analogy got you selfowned.

Re:Slashdot Overeacts... Again

[Anonymous Coward]

STFU. is there any good reason to defend this? do we need another law limiting our freedom to move? do you think this would make you any safer? seriously, just shut the fuck up

Re:Slashdot Overeacts... Again

[badzilla]

It's not just a question of having travel plans and making them available. It's a question of yet one more thing on top of everything else that was already pissing people off (unbelievably rude treatment, pointlessly intrusive "security" processes, fingerprints, yadda yadda etc.) If I ever can't avoid visiting you for business then I'll show up, but I've decided not to take my family's vacations there any more.

Re:Slashdot Overeacts... Again

[m_evanchik]

I'll agree that there is some question of inconvenience, but hardly the apocalyptic implications found so far in this discussion.

And if you get flagged on any list

[Anonymous Coward]

you will magically become unemployable

"ze papers"

[Chas]

You vill show zem to us!

Now off to the concentration camps with you!

Obligitory Cheech Marin quote:

[rts008]

'Honest, man...I was born in East L.A.!'

Just watched that movie again two nights ago. :-)

Colin Powell

[Anonymous Coward]

Colin Powell tells a fairly funny story about the first time he had to travel commercial after years of military and State Dept. flights.

He got booked to speak at a conference the next day and didn't know where he would be going afterwards so ... he bought a one-way ticket, less than 24 hours in-advance and paid cash.

Oh yeah, he got all the extra-special personal "attention" that "suspicious" persons do from the TSA screeners at the airport even though they recognized him. Surely everybody knows the next terrorist will be an ex-Secretary of State.

THIS IS NOT SECURITY.

Re:Safe/Sorry

[symbolic]

They said that it's better to be safe than sorry! How funny!

Are you sure you heard correctly? Maybe they said that it was better to be safe and sorry.

Sounds very much like ...

[dadman]

the old time China than the moden, 21st century America to me.

--
Sig? No sig.

we don't know what to do, so we'll spend a lot

[hxnwix]

Great.

You forgot to say...

[bratwiz]

Sieg Heil, and Heil Hitler.

"And it really doesn't compromise your privacy"

[posterlogo]

Read: "And it really doesn't f*ck you in the *ss. Heh heh. Heh heh."

Beer and Food?

[Savage650]

Yes, but fortunately beer and food are still beer and food.

Ever heard of Victory Gin?

Re:Beer and Food?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but fortunately beer and food are still beer and food.

Ever heard of Victory Gin? No, but I've heard about freedom fries.

"it really doesn't compromise your privacy"

[popo]

That's because this issue really isn't about privacy. It's about "freedom". And yes, it unquestionably *does* compromise our freedoms.

The United States of Fear

[TheeBlueRoom]

I travel a great for work, I have been working in Europe for since August of last year. The US is becoming more and more of a police state/Big Brother. Reading the papers from non US sources has really opened my eyes to how bad things are getting in the US. I love the US but the desire to live some other place grows a little every day when I read the new about how the US government is willing to toss aside freedom, real freedom in the name safety. I feel safer in Bonn Germany that in the US. I feel safer in the streets of Belo Horizonte Brazil than in my own home in the US. Fear and ignorance are growing uncheck every day by the terror mongering news outlets and government. The government breeds fear so they can protect use from the those fears.

Global warming

[caraco]

I believe this is the Bush administrations first step to combat global warming by decreasing the number of people that fly to the US.

Its pretty frightening

[fantomas]

Your expression "just out of the protective reach of civilization and into something a bit terrifying" might be a bit apt indeed... .. speaking as a white 40 year old university researcher, a British guy whose lifetime criminal record is one parking ticket I guess I should have nothing to fear about your customs officers. Nevertheless your procedures and government rhetoric conspire to make the whole process slightly nerve wracking and cumbersome enough that I tend not to apply to attend conferences in the USA, and psychologically feel the idea of coming to visit my friend in Boston to be a much bigger deal than seeing my friends in Cambodia.

You guys have told the world you maintain the right to disappear anybody you want, keep them out of contact with anybody else as long as you want, and if you really want to turn the screws on them, you are happy to ghost them off to a third country where you'll torture them. This is a bit frightening. It does put me on edge that I am visiting a country that considers this activity legitimate and is in 'siege mentality'. You just never know if the authorities might just lash out and do something scary and irrational to you too. And as you note, there is the sense of entering a country which believes itself to be answerable to nobody but itself and can do what it wants when it wants and get away with it. Umm, easier just to give it a miss, go somewhere safer instead.

Re:Its pretty frightening

[ScrewMaster]

Not really arguing with you, but I will say that it's not the country that considers this activity legitimate: just the power-hungry types at the top. Of course, honestly that can be said of any nation. My only complaint is that people from other countries frequently make this blanket assumption that all Americans think the same way, and that all Americans support the actions of our current Administration, that all Americans believe that mistreating foreign nationals without cause is justifiable. Wrong on all counts. People from other countries have to realize that Americans are a fractious bunch, divisive as hell in many ways, and really can't agree on much of anything. We do generally agree that hurting people for no reason is wrong, which is why our Imperious Leader isn't too popular right about now. Plus which he lies a lot.

Let's just hope that somebody with some critical-thinking skills ends up in the Oval Office this time around. What concerns me is that the entire Department of Homeland Security, the Transport Safety Administration, and the rest of the massive bureaucracy created because of 9/11 has become too entrenched to ever eliminate. That's what happens when you give a lot of people a lot of money to accomplish something that can't be done. War on Terrorism, War on Drugs, War on Poverty ... whenever our government gets a new "War on" you can bet that the organizations charged with prosecuting said "War" will a. never win it, b. cost a lot of money and c. fight tooth and nail to stay relevant long after they've served their purpose. If every terrorist on the planet disappeared tomorrow, you can bet your bottom dollar (or pound, or whatever) that the DHS people will find some reason to hang on to their jobs.

Re:Its pretty frightening

[Anonymous Coward]

What you need is a War on Everything, especially a "vodcast" of such war.

This, I gotta see

[Gorshkov]

It's going to be really interesting to see just how many hotel chains declare bankruptcy with a year after this passes.

I don't know the numbers for the contribution of foreign tourism to the US economy .... but something like this will kill it overnight.

In Cold war USA...

[Anspen]

Capt. Vasili Borodin: I will live in Montana. [..]And I will have a pickup truck... maybe even a "recreational vehicle." And drive from state to state. Do they let you do that?
Captain Ramius: I suppose.
Capt. Vasili Borodin: No papers?
Captain Ramius: No papers, state to state.
Capt. Vasili Borodin: Well then, in winter I will live in... Arizona. Actually, I think I will need two wives.
Captain Ramius: Oh, at least.

interstate travel papers

[blaine61]

sounds like george orwell to me..what a visionary!

That's just lovely.

[mandie]

How many Americans have a spouse or partner who happens to be a non-US citizen who likes living in or visiting the US just fine, but does not want to give up his/her current citizenship?

My boyfriend is German. We live in Germany. I'm trying to convince him to come meet my family and friends back home. He got a masters in the US in the late 90's and had a good time, but is unenthusiastic about dealing with our new security stuff. However, he was starting to come around, since it would mean so much to me.

This will absolutely thrill him. What if something happens back in Germany while he's visiting the US, and he had to wait two days instead of taking the next flight back?

If Germany was half as stupid to visiting Americans as we are to visiting Germans, I'd discourage my family and friends from visiting me here. As it is, they're amazed at how nice the German border and customs police are, and how quickly everything moves. A scan of your passport, a few quick questions about what you're planning on doing here and when you plan to leave, a discreet look at the screen (probably to make sure that matches up), and off you go to hit the Biergarten.

fear...

[l3v1]

Fear and ignorance are the real enemy. First, you have fear from someone, so you start taking measures, hard ones, but you can explain them with the fear you have. Than, you go on, realize that these measures are good for you, make your life easier, so make a few steps further, and after a while you're not even surprised that you still can blame all on the "enemy" you feared before and nobody really protests. Then, after a longer while, you just don't even have to blame it on anyone, just keep on doing what you wish and the people will just swallow everything. Why shouldn't they, it's in _their_ best interest, as they became to believe. After making some regulation that have bad effects even on outsiders and foreigners, you can all justify them by saying hey, it's all for your best interest and it's just foreigners that get hassled, you won't. When foreigners start disliking you, that's even great, since you'll be able to say hey, I'll told you they dislike us and we have to protect you people. And the circle just goes on. This is a nice game actually, it's just not so entertaining when it's being played on our doorsteps.
 

I'm all for it

[theolein]

I'm all for it, but I want Americans to be required to offer proof of fluency in the language of the country they are visiting before we let them into the EU.

Americans OUT!

[theolein]

For a nice inflammatory post, that would be a good start. It certainly is how I feel at the moment. I certainly will never again visit the USA. It's really a pity. There's a lot of good in your country, but it is drowning beneath a wave of religiously paranoid, fearful and backward shit.

If I were a tourist...

[redblue]

... it might even be good for me to declare my itinerary ahead of time to a single g'ment entity. With all this information I can be informed of potential problems in a target location (riots, epidemics, terrorism, etc) that I might not know of ahead of time. Come to think of it, this program does not go far enough! If tourists were to declare all the people they will visit and the nature of their visit, the g'ment can even inform me of any potential problems in advance. Who knows what weapons/diseases/insurance/liabilities/* my potential hosts carry? The only way to fix this situation is if they had a single database of all citizens and their medical/legal/personal/* information. So for non-citizens, this a pretty good start, but it doesn't go far enough.

lies and damned lies

[thoughtlover]

Heritage Foundation = Conservative Think-tank

From their website:

"Our Mission
Founded in 1973, The Heritage Foundation is a research and educational institute - a think tank - whose mission is to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense."

Yup. Sounds just like a Republican candidate/incumbent's rhetoric. Or a Democrat, for that matter. Jello Biafra called them Rebublicrats.

Re:I just recommend reading Bruce Schneier's opini

[DerPflanz]

Thank you for the link. I knew Bruce Schneier already as somebody that actually has a clue, but this article made me join his crypto-gram mailing list. The article in particular really makes you wonder why the People In Charge don't know or act correctly on this. How can they overreact as somebody that doesn't have all the information or time to make a good decision? Stuff that is happening in the USA (of course, as somebody from the Netherlands I can only judge these things from what I get from the media) actually make me worry a little about the future. I sure hope that some people that have a open mind will come to power one time.

Yes, New Zealand is nice

[Anonymous Coward]

You can actually JOKE with the officials there. They're not humorless pricks with pickles up their asses. They have a job to do - they're some of the strictest in the world about agricultural pests - but they're not being assholes about it. In fact, they're downright nice.

For an example of using LOGIC to address a situation, if you're carrying something they don't want to let in the country, they will keep it for you - for free! - until you leave. They just ask you to sign a form allowing them to dispose of it if not claimed in 30 days. They can even transport it between airports for you if you're flying out a different one. And I expect there's a way to stretch the 30 day limit if necessary.

I was traveling with live vaccines, which aren't really a major concern, but fall in the category of "potential disease vector." I'm quite convinced I could have argued them through (they're as close to sterile as can be managed without killing them, and I wasn't opening them in any case), but when they said that they could keep them refrigerated for me, why the hell was I going to struggle keeping a cold chain in a hotel?

This is a case of "we're damn serious about keeping unwanted stuff out, so we'll work to eliminate every possible disincentive to declaring it." The U.S. would give you the option of turning around or having the stuff destroyed. So of course I'll hide it in my spare socks and hope nobody looks!

And yes, Canada's Perimiter Institute really won from the U.S.'s 2001 backlash. They were flooded with resumes of faculty who didn't want to work in the U.S. any more, and like the rest of Canada, they've become a popular site for physics conferences where Americans and others can meet without fighting with U.S. government paranoia.

Re:Yes, New Zealand is nice

[Anonymous Coward]

You can actually JOKE with the officials there. They're not humorless pricks with pickles up their asses. They have a job to do - they're some of the strictest in the world about agricultural pests - but they're not being assholes about it. In fact, they're downright nice.

You want to try telling that to my brother. He left New Zealand, travelling to Australia on work related business (he used to work for a library here). Each time he was in the airport he was "randomly" stopped and searched. In the last 4 years, he was stopped 8 times. He went to Australia and said of their officials exactly what you said of ours. When he came back to New Zealand, he commented on how humourless and arrogant they were.

He recently went to Australia to get married. On his return, he was holding a video tape he didn't want run through the x-ray machine. The woman behind the counter said "What's that?" Then snatched it off him, and hurled it through the machine. When he told her it was a tape and he had wanted it inspected visually, she told him that she didn't care and it wasn't her problem.

New Zealand Customs have proved themselves to be a pack of wankers.

Re:Yes, New Zealand is nice

[Kalriath]

Sure. To us. The government's proved time and time again it values Australians more than us locals.

The Heritage Foundation

[randolph]

May this make all of us more suspicious of this deeply authoritarian radical-right organization.

It's a pity

[theolein]

It really is sad you stupid, ignorant dumbass fucking yanks are even allowed out of your own coutry. It's a miracle that you can even find your way to a shit house overseas considering how you can't even read articles in English, you dumb cunt.

Re:It's a pity

[feepness]

It really is sad you stupid, ignorant dumbass fucking yanks are even allowed out of your own coutry. It's a miracle that you can even find your way to a shit house overseas considering how you can't even read articles in English, you dumb cunt.
I rest my case.

Re:It's a pity

[dbcad7]

Wow

And I thought HE was being overly defensive of the US...

I'm sure you know that not all yanks are ignorant dumb asses.. (although considering the last presidential election there are a fair bit). Just as I know that not all Swiss are either.

US short term visa cost to the economy

[Builder]

Since the USA started their silly abuses of foreign visitors, I have personally been responsible for a loss of $20,000 per year to the US economy. So far, at three years, I've taken $20,000 that I would have normally spent in the US and redistributed to Spain, France and South Africa.

The remaining $40,000 was business travel and input, and that has just been diverted to other business funds.

A lot of that money was spent with big nameless corporations (airlines for the most part) but a significant sum was spent in less well off towns with locally owned businesses. These are the real people suffering for your immigration policies - small restaurants, bed and breakfast accommodation, niche hardware and service suppliers.

<borat> Niiiiice </borat>

And ofr those travelling in a hurry ... ?

[RockDoctor]

"Congress and the Department of Homeland Security are considering several new visa restrictions, including forcing some foreign travelers to register their travel plans online 48 hours in advance. Business advocacy groups are worried about both foreign relations and the economic impact of such legislation,

As one of the numerous people who'd only travel to America if someone paid me, and knowing the way my business works (the oil business - quite popular in Texas, and with the Bush family, I hear) then it's perfectly likely that I'd need to be travelling to the States with less than 48 hours notice.
I can see the DHS (Direct Home Shopping?) being really popular when they start to get the bills for down time on equipment and other personnel because of their interference.

Oh well, another reason to not go to America. Not that I felt the need for any more.

No, you deal.

[jotaeleemeese]

It is a shameful indictment of people like you that foreigners know and understand better the letter and spirit of your own Constitution. Citizenry has nothing to do with the rule of law, save very special circumstances, but for 99% of cases, the law applies the same to all.

Many people in oppressed lands used to look at you as a beacon of freedom since they took what they knew aobut your country at face value. Guantanamo, the first election win of Mr Bush showed the world the reality hidden behind the nice empty rethoric.

When so many USians sprout so much nonsense as you did (in two sentences, for bunnies sakes) you do a tremendous deservice to your own country and its values.

No tourist dollars from me.

[jotaeleemeese]

As anyone with enough idle time can check, I make no bones about my chances to travel regularly abroad.

I have been to many countries, and the only one that ever demanded to know my whereabouts was, tan-tara-ran, the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. And they did not finger print me I think (or maybe they did, but hey, it is a totalitarian regime still). Nevertheless I just had to give a Hotel address and I was pretty much free to come and go as I pleased.

The more advanced and democratic a country is, the less impediments it puts to travel. Canada does not demand visas for us Mexicans. EU countries gives us visas for 6 months on arrival. No fingerprinting.

Now again, give me a good reason why I should go to the US?

I have plenty of disposable income but it will be spent where I am welcomed. I am going as far as to avoid US based airlines, even if they are cheaper. The US wants to finger print me and take a mug shot just for the privilege of spending 2 hours in a transit area of an airport. No fucking way.

Which is a real pity, because I want to see more of the US than what I have seen so far, I have not been to NY for crying out loud!

US's loss as far as I am concerned.

Lucky you.

[jotaeleemeese]

I have seen how US authorities treat Chinese people in LAX. People that were actually in transit to Mexico City.

And as for us Mexicans, well, appalling just starts to describe the way we were treated.

They tried to pull the same one on me to which I replied that it was none of their business what I was doing in Mexico, since it is my country.

A very risk way of doing things, even pre 9-11, but there is a point when enough is enough frankly, so consider yourself lucky, many other people do not have it that easy on that airport.

All very nice words.

[jotaeleemeese]

The matter of fact is that all this regulations are still in place and keep being proposed or put in place, progressive and sane people in the US are not doing enough to denounce the irrational climate of fear in your country.

Where are the massive demonstrations denouncing this?

Where are the massive political backslashes against the fear mongers?

My Canadians friends do not ask for that.

[jotaeleemeese]

Neither do the Germans, Brits, Spanish. Italians. Austrians. Poles.

Or even Thais, Malaysian or Singaporean. Or Turks (which request a visa from us dirty Mexicans, but they do not care where you go, except close to the border with the country the us is helping to destroy).

Namibians do, but they are a bit looney.

Vietnamese did, but hey, they are a Socialist Republic.

So no, there is no excuse for what you are doing, in any case it is your country, it is my tourist money.