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RIAA, Safenet Sued For Malicious Prosecution
DaveAtFraud writes "Tanya Anderson, the single mother from Oregon previously sued by the RIAA — which dropped the case just before losing a summary judgement — is now suing the RIAA and their hired snoop Safenet for malicious prosecution. (Safenet was formerly known as MediaSentry.) Anderson is asserting claims under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act. A reader at Groklaw has already picked up that she is seeking to have the RIAA forfeit the copyrights in question as part of the settlement (search the page for '18.6-7')."
Does she seriously expect the courts to award such a devastating judgement against one of the richest IP holding organizations in the country?
What really needs to happen is to get a couple of the hawkish Attourny Generals, like NY's, involved and looking into the RIAA's actions. They, actually, have some power to do something about the RIAA's tactics.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
She's suing Atlantic Records. I guess you didn't RTFA.
Yes,the slashdot summary should have made that clear.
-- Will program for bandwidth
I was wondering how long it would be before someone brought the RICO act into this. It's what finally stopped DirecTV from suing everyone that bought a Smartcard reader.
As in Music Company #1-14 as defendants? John Doe was getting rather old anyways.
The article reads the RIAA would lose the rights, not the copyrights.
Hmmm...I have mod points, but instead of just clicking Troll I'll assume you're serious and respond that way. Read the FA and tell me this isn't about extortion, plain and simple. It is also about deterrence, in the sense of the RIAA trying to deter people from defending themselves against baseless charges. The RIAA have no case whatsoever against this woman. Never did. At this point they're simply protecting their techniques for suing anybody anytime on the flimsiest of evidence. This woman has good lawyers and they recognize that she is not only innocent, she's *so* innocent that her case has good chances for setting precedent. With a good, solid precedent, other lawyers with other clients will have an easier time defending themselves.
Groklaw is irrelevant. The RIAA were dead wrong in this case, and now she wants them to pay for their mistake. She has every right to do so. That's how the legal system works in the US.
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
From what I understand here the RIAA didnt really want to bankrupt this woman. They really just wanted to assert their IP rights, they typically dont want whatever money would be awarded from a trial against some random individual.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but like hell they didn't. It's pretty clear these guys see the "threaten 'em all into paying" strategy as a moneymaker and a way to set an example. Both interests are served by bankrupting average Joes and Janes.
They knew, exactly what they were doing. And IMHO they deserve to pay the price, far more than some kid who innocently downloads a song and gets taken to the cleaners for $4000 neither they nor their parents can afford.
Kythe
Which is why you would never be on the jury, because you have already made up your mind about the outcome.
It is not extortion because extortion is done to make money.
It is, indeed. And threatening people who can't defend themselves unless they pay $4000 sounds to me an awful lot like a moneymaking scheme.
Just because it serves the dual purpose of "deterring" copyright violation doesn't mean it isn't extortion.
Kythe
This post is not flamebait nor troll. It's called a debate. Let's debate it and have a discussion not a "The RIAA sucks" party. This person is not very correct, but let's use it as a chance to educate, not obliviate.
I am not American, nor a lawyer, but my understanding is that they are doing a couple of things which very much violate the spirit of the law.
First, they file John Doe lawsuits, then use the discovery privileges they attain as a result of having those lawsuits filed to gather more information. As soon as the necessary information is gathered, the drop the original lawsuit (and offer settlement or go to court for a real lawsuit etc). The important thing here is that the John Doe lawsuit is never meant to be anything other than an abuse of process to give them wider investigative powers - definitely a violation of the spirit of the law.
Secondly, you get a knock on the door with a lawsuit from a multimillion (billion?) dollar company with the lawyers to match. Whether you've done something wrong or not, the temptation will be to buy the next couple of years of your life back by forking over 2 or 3 grand - the alternative is to fight for a year or 2 in court at great risk and expense... I think we'd all accept that the US litigation system favours he with the deepest pockets - so right or wrong, you still stand a shot of losing.. they know most folks will not take the risk for a couple of grand - that makes it extortion as plain as the hairs on my arse.
As many have already said this will be very expensive. What if the idea is to start the suit with lots of publicity and then get others to join and gain class action status? The more that the tactics get exposed to the public the better chance of an outcry getting relief for everyone. It really boils down to a publicity fight. If people believe that the RIAA is defending artists they like then the real issues won't matter. Convince them that making a mix tape of any music might get you prosecuted and things change. Education of the masses is the only way to solve the problem.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
Keep in mind that the way the RIAA and the music corporations are setup the RIAA will not make money. They will be operated at a loss. The music companies are the ones awarded the settlements since the hold the copyrights. Besides lawyers are relatively cheap when they are on salary. Consider that once the lawyers are on the books they might as well be suing people so they can bring in some money. So while you are correct that the RIAA is not "making money" that is not their purpose. They are there to make money for the record labels. They even say so on their site "The RIAA is an organization committed to helping the music business thrive." http://www.riaa.com/faq.php
$diff terrorists hippies
$
$rm -rf *terrorists *hippies
If someone intentionally runs you down with their car are you lucky if they run away when the cops arrive? (for the metaphorically impaired: I'm equating the cops arriving with the impending summary judgments that led the MAFIAA to drop their case). Wouldn't you try to sue them for you medical bills? How is that any different from her suing them for the legal bills they caused her to incur to defend herself against their bogus charges?
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
It should also be clear to anyone with a brain that this is what the RIAA means when they say they are going to "educate" the public. I already know a lot of people who won't go near P2P programs because of these tactics.. regardless of the fact that we're in another country and the RIAA don't "service our area". The education program is working.
How we know is more important than what we know.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Hell, old school Mafia protection rackets also serve the purpose of "deterring" people. Deterring them from living their lives in peace without paying money to the Mafia.
"Such a nice shop you've got here. Be a shame if anything were to happen to it, you know what I mean?"
And since the RIAA lawsuit's boil down to:
"Such a nice house you've got there. Be a shame if you were to lose it in, say, a lawsuit by a multinational cartel against your family. Now, how about an out of court settlement for a few thousand, and you never talk to anyone about this, capische?"
it's basically the same thing.
I just read through the filing. The RIAA is in big trouble here.
Most of the facts in the case have already been litigated, and the RIAA lost. The counterclaims arise from facts already on the record. The RIAA's actions are a matter of public record. And they did a whole range of things ranging from really dumb to possibly criminal.
First, their investigation unit, SafeNet/MediaSentry, isn't a licensed private investigator. So they don't have any of the immunities a private investigator does. Normally, law firms use licensed private investigators for their investigations, but the RIAA didn't bother. Bad move.
Second, there's a clear case for fraudulent debt collection. It's already been established in court that the RIAA's claims were false, and that they knew they were false, yet they continued collection efforts.
On the harassment front, the RIAA's representatives apparently attempted to contact a 10 year old child's elementary school under false pretenses, pretending to be a grandparent. The court had to issue a protective order prohibiting the RIAA from contacting the kid. That's going to be tough to explain to a jury.
There's more, but the RIAA is going to have a very tough time in court on this one.
Who predicted, when the RIAA began their lawsuit strategy, predicted that it would backfire in the long run? Please reference your previous slashdot posts as evidence.
All pass beyond reach of medicine. None pass beyond the reach of love.
https://www.fsf.org/associate/support_freedom/dbd_ donate
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
... unless Copyright Abuse was one of the charges, I fail to see how it would be usual to forfeit copyrights.
Given that Count 13 IS "Misuse of Copyright Laws" and, in that count, paragraph 18.6 claims "Such actions constitute a misuse of copyrights, and lead to a forfeiture of the exclusive rights granted to defendants by these laws." I'd say the conditions you ask for are met.
"Who shall watch the watchers?" is a problem posed millennia ago. In the case of police violating the fourth and fifth amendments, the answer the courts found was: "If you cops/prosecutors break the law in collecting evidence for a case, all that evidence - and all evidence collected as a result of it - is thrown out. Keep YOUR act clean or you lose the case."
Similarly congress has said: "Copyright gives you certain exclusive rights for a (long) time. It's hard to play 'whack a mole' with all the infringers, so we're giving you draconian penalties to make an example of those you do catch, to make examples of them and scare off others. If you misuse these rights, you lose them - not just for THAT case, but FOREVER."
If the court rules "You misuse the copyrights, you lose the copyrights" it will, IMHO, be correctly interpreting the law. Setting up a situation where the RIAA and its members get judgments when they go after a real copyright violator but lose the copyright on the songs involved if they maliciously or negligently prosecute an innocent non-violator would create a DANDY incentive for the RIAA to abandon its reign of terror and do their best to be squeaky-clean on any cases they pursue.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I should really take more breaks from looking at the monitor, I read the title as " RIAA, Safenet Sued For Malicious Prostitution"
Your point is well taken.
Consider that the way that the US is set up, the President of the United States will not make money, e.g., when you only consider the salary, the office operates at a loss because it takes hundreds, if not thousands of times as much money to get elected.
The positions are all about power and influence. For as long as the music industry survives in its present configuration, having the RIAA on one's resume makes for excellent connections, and not only in the actual part of the American music industry that produces and distributes music. It's an excellent springboard to lobbying and other high-paying gigs.
Further, I'm pretty sure that the positions in the RIAA map pretty well to positions in the Federal Government: the higher-ups are already wealthy, and the grunts are the ones who actually take risks. If this woman's case makes a difference, it's not the RIAA executives who'll pay the price. It'd be the people who'd be looking for a job who would be inconvenienced.
Something tells me that the hedge that the RIAA's power and influence will win out include lucrative speaking fees for the potential winners, and book deals in case the whole thing falls apart. Kind of like the way that the loser of a professional boxing match still comes out of it with millions of dollars--unless he misbehaves and is fined and/or sued.
I think they didn't seriously consider the risk of countersuits; they almost certainly thought they'd be greeted as liberators.
"Press to test."
(click)
"Release to detonate."
where 12 of you're pears
Mmmmm, jurylicious.
Easy solution: sneaker net. Sneaker net may have been floppies in the old day.. but now people have CDs, DVDs, usb keys that can hold up to 10GB, external harddrives, and even freaking laptops. Sneaker net, it's the only way to share things.
So you would have modded it troll/overrated just because you disagree with it and think the RIAA "doesn't have a lot of good karma"? Dont you see anything fundamentally wrong with that? Arent peer moderated discussions supposed to foster intelligent debate, not just modding down anything that the majority disagrees with?
Let's see... Dia- is a prefix meaning through or across. These lawsuits go through or across the RIAA. Sounds like DiaRIAA should be the term used to describe their attacks on people. :P
Your statement shows me the sad state of the educational system when they do not teach basic law or (apparently) how to research and read. This woman is one of many that has to deal with the RIAA in this way. She is the first to actually fight back. She was wrongfully accused, and therefore had the right in the US legal system to get compensation for that. As for the RIAA doing something illegal, how is knocking at your door demanding $4000 or you'll be sued and might have to spent two to four times that defending yourself not extortion? Its just like a mobster demanding $1000 for "protection" or you might loose $10000 repairing the damage.
Windows is as solid as quicksand.
This got modded to +5 Insightful? I knew it was a problem (see my sig), but seriously, this guy called us moderates "corporo-fascist trolls" for crying out loud. And here's me thinking that trolls were people who deliberately blocked discussion, or expressed their opinions in an inflammatory way (e.g. the parent post), not people who legitimately disagree with the person's viewpoint.
For shame, Slashdot, for shame.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Hang the jury? It's civil court.
Actually, The Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and and RICO are both criminal, not civil. In fact, they'll be facing felony charges.
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
I was under the impression that most spherical, homo-sapien anatomy, did indeed, come in pairs. Two, not twelve. Unless you're jiggling down multiple sets into a single lump sum, which is interesting because I was also under the impression that when referring to one's "pears" most people only have a single set, and the type of "pears" we're referring to, and their respective locations differ between the male and female anatomies. I think maybe however my take on your writing style is bulging out of proportion.
This thread, is officially a lemon.
Good. Cheap. Fast. Pick Two.
Well...
The bad news for the record companies is that the first three items in that list can't really be disputed -- a court has already issued a finding as to their truth. Proving the final item is all that's needed to inflict ruinous damages on the RIAA and its member companies, and there's quite a lot of evidence to back that one up.
The complaint seeks forfeiture of the record companies' sound recording copyrights in the recordings alleged to have been infringed. If Ms. Andersen wins, the record companies will lose the actual copyrights themselves.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
There are differences of opinion, but there are also posts that are inflammatory.
Now, given that someone was dragged to court, despite the evidence saying that said person was innocent of all wrongdoing, and the case was pushed, in the hope that they'd run out of money and fold..
Given also that rather than face a judgement against them that would set a precedent that they were dead in the wrong, the RIAA just drop the case, and walk away with the premise that there's no comeback at all.
The GP poster just says effectively "She got away lightly", despite having to fork out legal fees.
That is a highly inflammatory remark to make. The defendant did NOT get away lightly. She was harassed, threatened, and abused. By all measures, it is quite possible that the RIAA will be found guilty of extortion in this case (not all, by any means, but a strong possibility in this, as discovery has already uncovered a lot of illegal processes performed by the RIAA and their agents).
Modding the GP poster as a 'Troll' in this case would probably be better served by a 'Flamebait'. Whether by lack of understanding of the issues, or a deliberately crafted attempt, it serves the purpose of largely being both wrong in the detail (though there are mitigating parts, such as mentioning that not all cases are wrongly brought; the GP just doesn't follow through the logical progression and admit that this case WAS wrongly brought and prosecuted, thus bringing it into the realms of extortion. They merely say that some cases were correctly brought, thus all cases are warranted, which is NOT correct) and in the conclusion.
Now, modding up says that a post is insightful, informative, or similar. Given that the post uses spurious logic (taking a false premise, and building a logical chain of sorts on top of a false premise; in this case that given one case is valid, all cases are therefore valid) AND presents the resulting conclusion in a manner that can be deemed inflammatory (an innocent person harassed and hauled through the courts with the aim of wrongfully obtaining money is deemed to have got off lightly when charges are dropped), modding the post up as insightful OR informative is just plain wrong; it is plainly neither.
I'm all for debate; There are posts on here that I vehemently disagree with, but as they're presented with a rationale that fits facts, I concede they have a point, and have to re-think my own opinion. Sometimes the facts support many opinions. And that's ok.
However, when the opinion does not fit the facts, it is wrong (and thus can't be either informative, or insightful).
Presenting the falsehood in an offhanded, condescending fashion is, like it or not, either flamebait, or plain trolling (attempting to derail incisive discussion by presenting falsehood likely to produce a vehemently emotional response rather than an educated an well thought out one).
I believe that you will need to get someone from the Department of Justice (either Oregon or Federal) to press charges, you can't turn a civil case into a criminal one. I doubt either of them will, but this does look like it is gift-wrapped for them. If you believe the case should be prosecuted, you should contact the local DoJ offices in Oregon.
1. It comes from caselaw.
2. It would mean those particular sound recordings are no longer copyrighted. It would have no bearing on the copyrights in the underlying song.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
I would just like to extend a genuine THANK YOU to you, NewYorkCountryLawyer, for being here on Slashdot and keeping the record straight. You're just the sort of person this site needs more of. Please keep up the good work.
Page 23, Section 10.3 of the action filed says that "Ms. Andersen was never observed downloading any mucis". A defense like that is nothing to sneeze at! The RIAA needs to be exposed for being the flim-phlegm men they are.
It is the 21st century and the time for Klax has passed.
OK, since you and a few others are claiming that I am factually incorrect I will respond and ask how. They had her IP address didnt they? Thats an honest question, I cant imagine they went after her without an IP address. And please dont respond with some discussion about dynamic IP addresses and so forth, I mean the IP address that was assigned to her at the time they found shared files. If they didnt have an IP address or some other way to identify her how on earth did they find her?
Jorghis, they lost. They sued Andersen knowing their process was error-prone, and they lost on the merits. This has already been litigated.
They supposedly had an IP address, gathered by an unlicensed private investigative company. One of the problems is that they didn't know whether or not it belonged to her, and they knew of that flaw. What's more, they were presented evidence that their claims were in error, and they sued anyway.
Just because nothing was found on the computer doesnt mean she is innocent, it isnt hard to completely remove some files from a computer. Logically, their presence may prove guilt but their absence proves nothing.
It's a lot harder than you seem to think. Anyone who has ever analyzed a hard drive knows that the wiping of specific evidence can be pretty glaring.
Of course, in this case we're talking about the absence of ALL evidence. There was no evidence she had done this. None. No pattern or history of filesharing; no connection of the unique Kazaa name to her (actually, identifying the likely culprit was pretty simple with a Google search), no similarity between Andersen's obvious music taste and the files that were shared. Simply an IP address, which may or may not have been hers at the time. History indicates that the matching of IP addresses after the fact to individuals is actually a rather flawed process.
And the RIAA knew all of this, and even admitted as much. Did you read the filing?
So perhaps you still wish to condemn her because she didn't "prove" her innocence. Of course, that's not the way our justice system works. But you'd have to be pretty hard up to see her as suspect to insist that she could be guilty, regardless.
Logically, their presence may prove guilt but their absence proves nothing. As long as they found her IP address sharing copyrighted material I dont see what the problem is.
Then you haven't read the filing, and aren't familiar with this case.
If they couldnt get enough evidence on top of that to get a guilty verdict that doesnt necessarily mean that suit was motivated by malicous reasons.
Then you haven't read the filing, and aren't familiar with this case.
I mean come on, it costs WAY more than 4000 dollars to go through with a lawsuit like this, if she was innocent they would have no logical reason to pursue it.
Oh, really? How about their explicitly-stated rationale that they didn't want to encourage others to defend themselves? How about the fact that they still hoped she would settle, and they could chalk up another "win" on their record?
Do you really believe that they were sueing her just to be dicks? It makes no sense.
Partially, yes. Partially because they know their "threaten-em-all" PR campaign is a house of cards into which they're totally invested.
I have a very cynical reaction to cries of "person XYZ was sued by the RIAA and is innocent". I mean, its so easy to find people who are guilty that it just seems ridiculous that they would go after someone who has done nothing in spite of all the costs involved.
Then you haven't read the filing, and aren't familiar with this case. The RIAA's actions weren't what you seem to think they were.
All that being said, if she actually is innocent I hope she wins, but I doubt that is the case and if it is she is a very small minority among the people getting sued.
As I said above, for all intents and purposes the RIAA lost on the merits, and there's absolutely, positively no evidence Andersen did anything wrong. By contrast, there's significant evidence the RIAA knowingly pursued baseless allegations in furtherance of a PR campaign.
Kythe
Much appreciated.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
Fraud, abuse of legal process, and malicious prosecution
Extortion, fraud, abuse of legal process, and malicious prosecution
Invasion of privacy, fraud, abuse of legal process, and malicious prosecution.
Deceptive business practice, racketeeering (Oregon and federal).
Is that illegal enough for you? One item not mentioned: They publicly declared that she was a "thief" and listed all the songs that supposedly she stolen which made her out to be racist while knowing that they did not really have any evidence against her. That would fall under libel and slander.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
True story:
In the early days of OCR, one of our attorneys wanted to see if he could scan a ton of his old hard copy docs into the computer and said he'd heard how wonderful scanners were. In spite of my repeated explanations of how immature the tech was (think 1.0), he insisted, so I had him send down a couple of docs for a test.
Needless to say, the resulting OCR scan was a ridiculous mess. The "old fashioned" font used for "United States District Court for the Northern District of Georgia" came out as:
But the funniest side effect was seeing "witness for the prosecution" converted to "witness to the prostitution".
I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.
Citizens are prefectly capable of filing criminal charges against another entity. The DA can, of course, decline to take it to court, but on an issue like this, with enough press, they can be backed into a corner and effectively forced to do so.
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Evidence, please. I have actually been working on experimental measures of the impact of erroneous or irrelevant information, and no singly study I am aware of has shown general education level to factor in at any significant degree. In fact, most of those that have conclusively shown irelevant information to have an effect have been performed on undergraduate and graduate college students (say, Zillman, D., Gibson, R., Sundar, S. S., & Perkins, J. W. Jr. (1996). Effects of exemplification in news reports on the perception of social issues. Journalism and Mass Communication Quarterly, 73, 427-444).
This is not to say that eventual studies may find an effect for educational level, but on the absence of such evidence nor any adequate conceptual ground, your statement is just an expression of prejudice. In other words: what you say makes you a snob, and I don't care for what you say that you're saying.
And, BTW: I have no sympathy for trial by jury. I prefer a professional judge to deal with the inevitable subtleties, but that is because having people serve in jury duty requires society to train them each time in the specifics, not because they are mentally or emotionally inferior for lacing a degree in Law.
Jesus saves. Real gods just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the deities mirror it
-all the cases are based on FastTrack, which technically sophisticated file sharers apparently haven't been using for years
--no technically sophisticated person bent on copyright infringement would be using his own computer, his own internet access account, his own wireless signal, etc.
--any technically sophisticated person engaged in 'copyright piracy' would probably be using dummies, zombies, slaves, whatever... and would not be using his or her own computer.
In other words, the RIAA's campaign is not geared towards catching serious copyright infringers; it is geared towards disrupting people's lives and making a lot of noise and causing a lot of pain. The RIAA itself has termed it a "driftnet" strategy. See ACLU brief in Capitol v. Foster. But if it's a driftnet, it's a pretty strange driftnet.... because the one thing it is NOT designed to catch is the 'copyright pirate' the RIAA professes to be 'angling' for.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful