Tunguska Impact Crater Found?

BigBadBus writes in with a claim by an Italian team that they may have found an impact crater resulting from the 1908 Tunguska explosion over Siberia. The BBC story quotes a number of impact experts who doubt the Italians' claim. "A University of Bologna team says a lake near the epicenter of the blast may be occupying a crater hollowed out by a chunk of rock that hit the ground. Lake Cheko — though shallow — fits the proportions of a small, bowl-shaped impact crater, say the Italy-based scientists. Their investigation of the lake bottom's geology reveals a funnel-like shape not seen in neighboring lakes. In addition, a geophysics survey of the lake bed has turned up an unusual feature about 10m down which could either be compacted lake sediments or a buried fragment of space rock."

Comments

Lewis Tully?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dr. Stanz approves.

Re:Lewis Tully?

[eneville]

printable: http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/n ews.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6239334.stm

Re:Lewis Tully?

[jacksonj04]

Why bother? BBC articles are neither ad-filled nor multi-paged.

University of Bologna?

[jollyreaper]

University of Bologna? My crater has a first name, it's T-u-n-g-u-s-k-a...

Re:University of Bologna?

[Kintar1900]

They're just letting you know in advance about the validity of their claims. ;)

Re:University of Bologna?

[Culture20]

I for one welcome our educated processed meat overlords.

Re:University of Bologna?

[sgt_doom]

Now....if only they'd find that Roswell Crater!!!!!

Re:University of Bologna?

[NeoTerra]

I have a BS degree from the University of Bologna and...

Any conversation would stop there, right?

Re:University of Bologna?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russian meteorite crater...Bologna is proof !!!

Re:University of Bologna?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a BS degree from the University of Bologna and...

...it's just down the road from Uttsamatta U.

Re:University of Bologna?

[Joebert]

Tunguska crater seems to me, like B-U-L-S-H-I-T.

Re:University of Bologna?

[Dread_ed]

Conversation? No.

Job interview? Yes.

Re:University of Bologna?

[Old Wolf]

>>I have a BS degree from the University of Bologna and...
>
>Conversation? No.
>Job interview? Yes.

Perhaps he would be an expert in fixing spaghetti code...

Re:University of Bologna?

[Anonymous Coward]

Too poor to afford the second "L" or something?

Re:University of Bologna?

[mnbjhguyt]

funny you mention that, being that bologna university is the oldest western university in the world (founded in 1088)

ciao
davide

Re:University of Bologna?

[dajak]

bologna university is the oldest western university in the world

Forgive the Americans. They know more about food than about world history.

Re:University of Bologna?

[Joebert]

Too poor to afford the second "L" or something?

BOLOGNA
1234567

BULSHIT
1234567


Been punched in the mouth enough times to devolop a habbit of being scared people are going to track you down & do it again ?

Re:University of Bologna?

[ColdWetDog]

Forgive the Americans. They know more about food than about world history.

And very little about either.

And when they found it...

[Anonymous Coward]

They said MAMMA MIA!!!!

Re:And when they found it...

[gyrogeerloose]

Nope, it was "pasta fazul!"

Impact, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tunguska Impact Crater? I think you mean Tesla Death Ray Test Site.

Re:Impact, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

You beat me to it that joke, too, Nik.

T.A. Edison

Re:Impact, eh?

[PoliTech]

You may have been joking AC (Pun Intended), but the "Tesla Death Ray" has been suggested as one of the possible causes of the Tunguska event for many many years.

Here is an About.com article that talks about it more. http://paranormal.about.com/cs/earthmysteries/a/aa 021604.htm

The text below is lifted from this site: http://prometheus.al.ru/english/phisik/onichelson/ tunguska.htm

The Tunguska event took place on the morning of June 30th, 1908. An explosion estimated to be equivalent to 10-15 megatons of TNT flattened 500,000 acres of pine forest near the Stony Tunguska River in central Siberia. Whole herds of reindeer were destroyed. Several nomadic villages were reported to have vanished. The explosion was heard over a radius of 620 miles. When an expedition was made to the area in 1927 to find evidence of the meteorite presumed to have caused the blast, no impact crater was found. When the ground was drilled for pieces of nickel, iron, or stone, the main constituents of meteorites, none were found down to a depth of 118 feet.

Several explanations have been given for the Tunguska event. The officially accepted version is that a 100,000 ton fragment of Encke's Comet, composed mainly of dust and ice, entered the atmosphere at 62,000 mph, heated up, and exploded over the earth's surface creating a fireball and shock wave but no crater. Alternative explanations of the disaster include a renegade mini-black hole or an alien space ship crashing into the earth with the resulting release of energy.

Associating Tesla with the Tunguska event comes close to putting the inventor's power transmission idea in the same speculative category as ancient astronauts. However, historical facts point to the possibility that this event was caused by a test firing of Tesla's energy weapon.

In 1907 and 1908, Tesla wrote about the destructive effects of his energy transmitter. His Wardenclyffe facility was much larger than the Colorado Springs device that destroyed the power station's generator. Then, in 1915, he stated bluntly:

It is perfectly practical to transmit electrical energy without wires and produce destructive effects at a distance. I have already constructed a wireless transmitter which makes this possible. ... But when unavoidable [it] may be used to destroy property and life. The art is already so far developed that the great destructive effects can be produced at any point on the globe, defined beforehand with great accuracy (emphasis added).

He seems to confess to such a test having taken place before 1915, and, though the evidence is circumstantial, Tesla had the motive and the means to cause the Tunguska event. His transmitter could generate energy levels and frequencies capable of releasing the destructive force of 10 megatons, or more, of TNT. And the overlooked genius was desperate.

Tesla was just enough of a mad scientist to make what would otherwise sound kooky, at least somewhat plausible.

Re:Impact, eh?

[Nim82]

As much as I admire Tesla, I think you have to call bullshit on that possibility.

If such a weapon existed (and had been demonstrated) I rather suspect the US wouldn't have gone through the expense of developing nuclear weaponry, stealth bombers and a whole host of other weapons systems. The war against Germany/Japan would have been over before it began. What is the point in having such a system if you don't intend to use it when the heat is on?

Mind you, the conspiracy nutters would prob argue that it was too secret to be used on anything less than Godzilla...

Re:Impact, eh?

[himi]

I call bullshit simply based on the question of where the hell Tesla would have gotten the ~80 petajoules of energy needed for a 20 megaton explosion, regardless of how wonderful his deathray may have been. Even if he was charging some massive bank of capacitors for a year, that would require 2.5GW for the whole year, which is utterly ridiculous for 1908.

himi

Re:Impact, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also to cause such an explosion he would have to somehow discharge the energy from his end to the desired point of destruction. Nothing is perfect...what happens if a loss of as little as 1% occurs at his end? That would still be enough energy to flatten his tower and the surroundings.

eg imagine you built a laser that could deliver 20 megatonnes of energy to the far end in one short discharge. Now imagine that 1% of that is lost in the sending end....

Re:Impact, eh?

[4D6963]

that would require 2.5GW for the whole year

Two point five gigawatts!!

Tunguska

[glwtta]

Black oil... Scully... uh, can some do the whole X-Files reference thing for me? (kinda sleepy after a big lunch...)

Re:Tunguska

[jollyreaper]

Black oil... Scully... uh, can some do the whole X-Files reference thing for me? (kinda sleepy after a big lunch...) Don't feel too bad, that was Chris Carter's approach to the entire series.

Re:Tunguska

[Himring]

Exactly. At some point, the plot has to actually work. X Files rocked, but Carter got caught up in the 'revealing for the sake of revealing' treadmill.... His thematic story shows -- meant to connect and be going some where -- never really went anywhere. I think the stand-alone episodes ended up carrying the series....

Heh, one of my favorite parts is when Skully gives up her baby like she's returning a movie.

Re:Tunguska

[geekoid]

After year 2, it pretty much became a recreation of 'The Night Stalker'. Once I realized that, I enjoyed it much more.

Re:Tunguska

[Himring]

Good point. He even brought back the lead star of that old show in at least one episode (was supposed to be in more but his health was failing; they used his "brother" for those episodes). Kojack I think it was. Can't remember actor's name but was the dad in Christmas Story.

In 2005, I netflicked the entire series over the whole year. I thoroughly enjoyed it all over again. One of the best series ever. The last year with Duchovny held some of the best stand-alone episodes I felt. The chemistry between Duchovny and Anderson was well polished and they were like an old dance couple. I think Anderson really had a thing for Duchovny. She was literally giddy in the one episode where he pulled her into his lap. When he left and Robert Patrick came in, those first few episodes, you could see on her face the utter bitterness at Duchovny leaving and her now having to work with Patrick.

Patrick was ok, but that replacement for Skully chick (R-something), sheesh can't remember her name, was horrible. One of the worst actors I've ever seen. Wtf were the try-outs like for that role? Can't act a requirement?

One of my all-time favorite episodes was the genie story where the two dolts found her, one working at a storage warehouse. The writing was incredible and the comedy became black as the one guy dies wishing to be invisible, taking off his clothes and getting hit by a truck chasing some girls....

Re:Tunguska

[jollyreaper]

Heh, one of my favorite parts is when Skully gives up her baby like she's returning a movie. I totally agree with you on the stand-alones, that was some good spook stuff. I'm usually the opposite with shows, liking arc episodes more. My personal favs: Jose Chung's "From Outer Space" and his appearance on Millennium where he took a swipe at Scientology. My other favorite Millennium ep was the one with the four devils. Shit, that's gotta be on bittorrent these days, I need to get them again.

Re:Tunguska

[Himring]

Oh yea. The Jose Chung episode rocked. I also thought the Burt Reynolds episode was stellar, all the internet crowd disagrees with me. In the director's voice over, Carter reveals his brother is a scientist at MIT I believe, and the whole numbers, life-is-math stuff came from that influence. I always dig theology.

Re:Tunguska

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. At some point, the plot has to actually work. X Files rocked, but Carter got caught up in the 'revealing for the sake of revealing' treadmill.... His thematic story shows -- meant to connect and be going some where -- never really went anywhere. I think the stand-alone episodes ended up carrying the series.... We've digressed here but I'd like to address this ot mini-thread.

The problem with X-Files was that it went on too long. You see, Chris Carter had a beginning, a middle and an end to the story. Basically, the show should have had an end date set (3-4 seasons) and stuck to it, thus preserving the story arc. Unfortunately, tv networks being what they are, FOX wanted to milk the show for all it was worth and Chris Carter was in a bit of a spot. Do you kill off your own money maker (it's not often artists succeed in making a hit show) or hold true to artistic principle? Basically, it came down to the fact that ...the show went on for too long.

This is evidenced by the creators of Lost and their desire to set and end date for the show. In fact, they have even referenced X-Files and Chris Carter when talking about their show. If they aren't sure when the show will end, it is hard to write the story into an unstable timeline. This is why season two of Lost sucked so badly. They weren't sure when it would end and therefore had to stall the reveals during season two (just in case the network wanted to drag it out forever). Once they had an idea that the network *might* allow an end date to be set, season three really started to pick up. Now that a sure end date has been set, you can bet that from season four on there will be a much more coherent storyline/timeline that moves along at a certain pace and fits much more closely with the artists original idea(s).

To save you some googling

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's two views of Checko Lake from Google Earth and Google Maps

Homer Simpson Says

[everphilski]

Mmmm.... University of Bologna

Re:Homer Simpson Says

[nospam007]

Mmmm.... University of Bologna ...
As I foreigner who doesn't get the joke, anybody explain this for us dummies? Some commercial we missed?
--
From Wiki:
The University of Bologna (Italian: Alma Mater Studiorum Università di Bologna, UNIBO) is the oldest continually operating degree-granting university in the world, and the second largest university in Italy. It is located in the city of Bologna. The University of Bologna was the first university founded in the western world (AD 1088) and since 2000, its motto has been Alma mater studiorum (Latin for "fostering mother of studies"; cf. Alma mater). The university received a charter from Frederick I Barbarossa in 1158, but in the 19th century, a committee of historians led by Giosuè Carducci traced the birth of the University back to 1088. The University celebrated its 900th anniversary in 1988, making it arguably the longest-lived occidental university.

Re:Homer Simpson Says

[terrymr]

Wikipedia:

Bologna sausage is an American version of the Italian mortadella (a finely hashed/ground pork sausage with lard pieces, which originated in the Italian city of Bologna). The American version can alternatively be made out of chicken, turkey, beef, pork, or soybeans. It is commonly called bologna and often pronounced (by hypercorrection) and/or spelled baloney. The "baloney" pronunciation can be used to mean "lies" and/or to express disbelief (see below).

Re:Homer Simpson Says

[GeckoX]

This should help:

Bologna Sausage

Re:Homer Simpson Says

[Stormwatch]

As I foreigner who doesn't get the joke, anybody explain this for us dummies? Some commercial we missed?

Well, Homer Simpson was probably thinking of Bologna spaghetti sauce, or maybe Bologna sausage (mortadella Bologna).

Re:Homer Simpson Says

[rts008]

Homer Simpson has this reaction when confronted with ANYTHING that he thinks may be edible-whether it actually is or not.

Homer: "Hmmm! !"
On one episode he discovered a jar of petroleum jelly (vaseline) and it turned into:

Homer:'Hmmm! JELLY! " and he starts eating it, licks clean the now empty jar, and starts looking for more.

Hope this helps.

Re:Homer Simpson Says

[Torvaun]

Including my favorite one, when Bart gets emancipated. The judge tells Homer that he's going to garnish his wages. Mmm, garnish.

Google Maps

[eldavojohn]

Areal view of what was believed to be the original impact site and Lake Cheko.

I'm no geologist so I can't comment on whether or not this lake looks typical but I will say that, judging by the coloration of the foliage around it, this is probable the same land as the river/stream that winds to the west of it. Interesting is that if you follow it northwest for miles it looks smooth cut. Once it passes Lake Cheko, it seems to become more speckled and pock marked. Doesn't seem 'natural' to me for an inlet and outlet to be positioned so close together on a lake--though the topography could indeed make that make sense if I could see a map of it.

I would guess this is quite feasible indeed to be part of whatever happened nearly 100 years ago. Check out the last page of this PDF which seems to show the comet/asteroid approaching at an angle (thus the strange blast pattern). At that trajectory, you'd think there'd be a chance for whatever hit to break apart and skip. Maybe the other abnormal marks in the stream are from other pieces/debris?

Probably fueled by the sci-fi stories written about the same topic (like the 1946 one by Alexander Kazantsev), I find it interesting to read about things like the Tunguska Genetic Anomaly whether they be true or not. Maybe these are the scientist's tabloids? :)

Re:Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm no geologist so I can't comment

Clearly not true, unfortunately.

Re:Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

There are similar lakes, albeit much smaller, just to the northwest and to the east along the same river. They look like flooded meander cutoffs to me. The outer edge of the lake opposite the river entry and exit (i.e. the N, E, and S sides) would fit the shape of a former stream channel with the same kind of sinuosity as the rest of the river.

The mundane explanation looks far more likely than the exotic one, and where's the crater rim?? It's entirely absent. Why is the lake elliptical? As the article mentions, it takes a very low angle impact to yield an elliptical crater.

Also from the article:

"Intriguingly, Lake Cheko does not appear on any maps before 1929, though the researchers admit the region was poorly charted before this time."

It's on a river floodplain (although the river doesn't look especially active). If it is a meander cutoff, it might have formed subsequent to the maps. More interesting would be to sample sediment cores from local lakes that *are* on pre-1929 maps, and see if there is a meteoritic dust layer from the 1929 event.

This "crater" looks completely unconvincing. I can't believe they managed to get this claim published in Terra Nova or any other journal.

Re:Google Maps

[OverlordQ]

Doesn't seem 'natural' to me for an inlet and outlet to be positioned so close together on a lake--though the topography could indeed make that make sense if I could see a map of it.

Go take a basic geography course. Easiest conclusion is that there was a sharp bend in the river there that eroded away and the stream filled in the low-lying areas.

And using Google for comparing foliage is like using a rubber band to measure distances. Pictures could have been taken at different days, times, seasons, etc.

Re:Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm no geologist so I can't comment

Clearly not true, unfortunately.

+2 Insightful, eh? Well, just another reason for me to stop posting on this site full of assholes ... not surprising that's on the here but modded up? Heh, I guess this site isn't about discussing ideas just about telling people they're stupid.

Re:Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

This from the guy with no formal training or any qualifications speculating the researchers are right after you looked at a 2D bird's-eye-view map? From the guy who goes on about how the lake's formation doesn't seem natural and how the fauna's the same color here as over here, post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Your post is a well researched piece of unfounded speculation and it detracts from the conversation because it doesn't answer any questions or provide any insight--speculation is not insightful. You're a self-professed non-expert doing armchair science. Here's a tip: if what you have to say starts with "It seems to me...," then you're wrong.

The next time you have nothing to say, keep it to yourself.

Re:Google Maps

[Gilmoure]

Are there any Google images from the '20s or '30s?

Re:Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, some of us enjoy reading speculations from people who don't have a closet full of degrees on a topic. The GP was kind enough to inform us right at the beginning of the post that he was just giving his opinion.

Re:Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

How to act like a true scientist:

• Reject outsider speculation. Anyone who hasn't devoted their life to studying something is always wrong. Don't even listen to them.
• Hold your degree up and chant in ancient high Egyptian. Laugh when no one understands your jargon.
• Profess how stupid others are.
• Ridicule those with opposite views.
• Name something after yourself.

Did I miss anything? What a bunch of fucking snobs.

Re:Google Maps

[gEvil (beta)]

You just need to wait for gTimeMachine (beta). We're working on it.

Re:Google Maps

[isny]

Personally, this one looks like an impact crater. http://maps.google.com/maps?t=k&ie=UTF8&ll=60.9023 96,101.929779&spn=0.044828,0.10746&z=13&om=1

Re:Google Maps

[MichaelSmith]

Doesn't seem 'natural' to me for an inlet and outlet to be positioned so close together on a lake

It looks like a billabong. Very common here in Australia.

Imagine that the river used to go around the edge of the lake, then a channel opened between the entry and exit point. Over time the inside of the old loop of water filled up to make a lake.

Re:Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

eldavojohn is a know troll and shill.

Re:Google Maps

[The_mad_linguist]

Don't bother. The funding gets cut in three years to make way for gStarGate.

Re:Google Maps

[DerekLyons]

I would guess this is quite feasible indeed to be part of whatever happened nearly 100 years ago. Check out the last page of this PDF which seems to show the comet/asteroid approaching at an angle (thus the strange blast pattern). At that trajectory, you'd think there'd be a chance for whatever hit to break apart and skip. Maybe the other abnormal marks in the stream are from other pieces/debris?

You might want to read the paper rather than just look at the pretty pictures. (In fact, I'm not even sure you looked at the pretty pictures - as it plainly shows the object to have fragmented.) The odd blast pattern is a result of the object fragmenting - not it's approach angle. Once you have multiple blasts - the resulting pattern will always be 'odd', regardless of approach angle.

Re:Google Maps

[Anonymous Coward]

If you move that map a bit south, it looks like a map of western europe!

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/images/maps/wester n_europe.jpg

Coincidence? Da? Nyet? Vodka? Korbashorezckiburginskgradikov?

Da!

Re:Google Maps

[NotmyNick]

I'm no geologist so I can't comment on whether or not this lake looks typical but I will say that, judging by the coloration of the foliage around it, this is probable the same land as the river/stream that winds to the west of it. Interesting is that if you follow it northwest for miles it looks smooth cut. Once it passes Lake Cheko, it seems to become more speckled and pock marked. Doesn't seem 'natural' to me for an inlet and outlet to be positioned so close together on a lake--though the topography could indeed make that make sense if I could see a map of it.

Here's your topo from the journal article. It's an unusual shape, but it looks much like an oxbow lake.

Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[pclminion]

If this is in fact the real impact site, shouldn't there be elevated iridium levels in the lake sediments, as is usually found at other impact sites? I guess "prove" is too strong a term, but I'd challenge anyone to find an alternate explanation for elevated iridium, if found.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[drinkypoo]

If this is in fact the real impact site, shouldn't there be elevated iridium levels in the lake sediments, as is usually found at other impact sites? I guess "prove" is too strong a term, but I'd challenge anyone to find an alternate explanation for elevated iridium, if found.

It's impossible to be scientific based on the material in the article, but a few things jumped out at me. The most telling are that there's no upside-down layer of material around the supposed crater, and then there's the following passage:

"We have no positive proof this is an impact crater, but we were able to exclude some other hypotheses, and this led us to our conclusion," Professor Longo, the research team leader, told BBC News.

so wait, there is no positive proof that this is an impact crater, but you concluded that it is? that sounds like bullshit to me.

But IANAG[eologist] or in any related field, and of course this is just one little article on the beeb which is pretty much known for fucking up the technical details...

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Kelson]

According to the article, they plan on sending another expedition next year and drilling at the lake.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Ironsides]

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

They eliminated pretty much everything but an impact crater. Thus, they think it might be an impact crater.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[drinkypoo]

They eliminated pretty much everything but an impact crater. Thus, they think it might be an impact crater.

No. They eliminated everything else they could imagine that would explain it, and therefore concluded (in the words of the project lead) that it was an impact crater. Not "think it might be", but "believe that it is".

If this is not the case, perhaps the project lead should not have said that it was.

If he's not a native English speaker (I don't know if he is or not, just trying to head off possible replies) then instead of trying to make himself sound more knowledgeable than he really is by using a word like "concluded", he should stick with words he actually knows.

While it's not precisely applicable in this situation, there is a saying that goes something like "Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence". This is actually a lack of evidence, which is not evidence of anything! It's a lack thereof!

The project lead himself says that he doesn't actually have any supporting material, just a lack of theories which contradict his case. Trying to disprove alternate theories is not useless, but it doesn't prove anything. All we have so far is conjecture, which does not support a conclusion.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Hoi Polloi]

Not if it was a comet

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[btgreat]

Though he said he didn't have positive evidence, it does sound like they have negative evidence. The way you describe their conclusions makes it seem like there was no other reason for a lake to be there so it must have been a crater. What it sounds like to me is that instead of there being no other theories contradicting his case, they were able to disprove those other theories, and all that was left is impact crater.

I don't think there was absence of evidence, it was just that the evidence applied to other theories rather than the impact crater. Simple deductive reasoning: A lake was formed. It could have been by methods A, B, or C. We have evidence that it wasn't A or B. Thus it was C.

Semantics aside, some of the material presented in the article does make the researchers' conclusion seem somewhat dubious. I'm not arguing that the lake was the crater, just that it is possible that the professor is more justified than the article might make him appear at first glance.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Ironsides]

Lack of contradicting evidence is frequently used to figure out the most likely possibility. A type of Ockham's Razor, if you would. If they can disprove all other more likely possibilities, that would leave them with this.

It's also possible that, if this came through a translator, the translator used "concluded" instead of "hypothesized" or something similar, and that the scientists think that an impact crater is just the best possible theory for the moment. If they find evidence that doesn't fit or that makes something else more likely, then something else would be the new suspect.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[jagilbertvt]

If he's not a native English speaker (I don't know if he is or not, just trying to head off possible replies) then instead of trying to make himself sound more knowledgeable than he really is by using a word like "concluded", he should stick with words he actually knows. Or perhaps the quote was translated from his original language by someone else?

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Chris Mattern]

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

They eliminated pretty much everything but an impact crater. Thus, they think it might be an impact crater.

This only works when you can be reasonably confident you have an exhaustive list of the possibilities. That really doesn't sound very likely in this case; it's too easy for it to be something they didn't think of.

Chris Mattern

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Poromenos1]

so wait, there is no positive proof that this is an impact crater, but you concluded that it is? that sounds like bullshit to me.

Well, they basically say it's not not an impact crater!

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[poopdeville]

No. They eliminated everything else they could imagine that would explain it, and therefore concluded (in the words of the project lead) that it was an impact crater. Not "think it might be", but "believe that it is".

On the basis of our knowledge of lakes and their geology, they eliminated every possibility but an impact crater. Therefore, on the basis of our knowledge of lakes and their geology, we can deduce (conclude! a synonym!) that it is an impact crater.

This is no more provisional than even having positive evidence, since the interpretation of positive evidence will depend upon our knowlege of lakes and their geology. In either case, if our knowlege about lakes and their geology changed in a way that affects analysis, all bets are off.

Welcome to Logic 101.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[poopdeville]

On the other hand, there are only so many known mechanisms for lake formation. The surrounding geology eliminates many of those. And it sounds like their negative evidence eliminates many more.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Anonymous Coward]

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

I know this is ad hominem, but the man believed in ouija boards and fairies at the bottom of the garden. I'm hardly going to take the statements of his fictional character as my scientific guidelines.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[maple_uk]

IAAG(eologist) -- or at least a lapsed one (seriously, it's really really boring!) -- as far as I'm aware iridium spikes as found at the KT boundary (the event that is hypothesised to have wiped out the dinosaurs) are indicative of meteoritic impact. Chondritic meteorites (the ones that have been around since the birth of the solar system) are rich in a number of unusual elements, iridium amongst them. Comets, on the other hand, are often just balls of ice and dust.

A comet would a) be more likely to airburst (poorer structural integrity) and b) leave no or little elemental anomalies behind.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Duggeek]

Not necessarily... to wit, the level of science in 1908 (and the response time of the researchers) would mean that iridium would be virtually undetectable. Not to mention that the most-stable isotope has a half-life of only 73 days. At this point, they should be looking for concentrations of platinum or osmium.

Moreover, the Tunguska Event is largely thought to be an airburst phenomenon, and not a conventional meteor impact. TFA is accurate in this regard, as they refer to the alleged discovery as a “fragment” rather than an entire meteorite.

In all, TFP is what I call an “almost news” piece; it's not really news, it's just a foreshadowing of the potential for a fairly significant news piece to-come.

We'll be waiting while they go dig it out of the mud and see what it actually is.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[mfrank]

What? Iridium is stable. Why would you you think an asteroid or comet strike would create radioactive by-products? Heck, they can detect the iridium layer left by the asteroid that hit 63 million years ago.

Re:Shouldn't this be easy to prove?

[Duggeek]

With water flows and seasonal changes, there may not be much to find. Even though there is evidence of tremendous meteor impacts from millions of years ago, those were actual impacts into hard earth.

The working theory with the Tunguska event is that the meteor exploded in mid-air.

Firstly—if that theory is true—it would increase the ambient levels of iridium just with all the micro-fragments and dust that accompany such an explosion.

Secondly, any fragments would have been thrown from the explosion and not from the momentum of the meteor itself. Who knows if it was enough velocity to leave any “trail” for scientists to find? For all we know, it just sunk into the mud ...not to mention the opposing theory that the Tunguska object was in fact a comet, rather than a meteor.

Lastly, the specific area is a seasonal river and temperate marshland. The explosion may have occurred in a time when the soil was soft or muddy. Plunge a spade into dry earth and you will see the exact shape of the tool when you take it out. Plunge a spade into moistened soil or mud, and it collapses just as you pull the spade out. With nearly 100 wet seasons between then and now, it's likely that most traces of the fragment's path have been erased by weathering. (ergo, no obvious concentrations of iridium--isotope or not)

BTW: mega-explosion = mega-energy = potential for isotopes, therefore you're looking for depleted trace elements as well as stable iridium -- and, we can't really detect it on a mass scale, it has to be found through geological sampling.

For that matter, what if the alleged fragment turns out to be the veritable core of the meteor/comet? After going through such a tremendous blast, only to sink to the bottom of the bog, we might find it intact and preserved!

Thanks for the discourse, but I stand with my initial post; we'll have to wait and see with this story.

So many meteor shaped lakes

[Realistic_Dragon]

...and if you think that the little ones wiped out the dinosaurs, imagine what creatures must have been wiped out by the meteor that created the Pacific!

Re:So many meteor shaped lakes

[confused one]

meteor that created the Pacific
You mean the moon?

Re:So many meteor shaped lakes

[Daniel_Staal]

Nah, the Moon is the ejecta from that impact. The actual meteor was much bigger.

Re:So many meteor shaped lakes

[sohare]

Dude, the oceans were created because the earth is hollow and expanding ;)

Re:So many meteor shaped lakes

[WilliamSChips]

He was asking if the OP meant the meteor that created the Moon.

Re:So many meteor shaped lakes

[RockDoctor]

There wasn't a "meteor that created the Pacific".
There was, for a few years in the late-19th-century to eraly-20th-century, a hypothesis that the basin occupied by the Pacific Ocean was created by ejecting a considerable volume of material; there was also a hypothesis that (some) of this ejecta went on to for the Moon. This first hypothesis fell apart instantly when someone (anyone) asked "where did the energy to dissociate the newly-formed Earth come from"? It fell apart again when the volume of the Pacific basin (approximately 600 million km^3) was revealed by increasing trans-oceanic cable laying surveys through the 20th century was compared to the volume of the Moon (21990 million km^3, from it's 1738km mean radius).
Further disintegration of the already-atomised hypothesis occured as the ideas of plate tectonics developed through the 20th century (based in part on the patterns of magnetic domains in the seabed, including in the Pacific; and also on the extending programme of deep-ocean drilling confirming the varying ages of oldest-sediment on the igneous sub-structure of the ocean basins), which showed that the formation of the Pacific basin developed over the period from ~180 million years ago to the present day.
Having ground the idea to smithereens, along came the Apollo missions which brought back some "ground truth" from the Moon for analysis ... and showed that the composition of the Moon is subtly, but distinctly, different to terrestrial materials (loss of volatile elements like sodium; loss of almost all water; changed rare-earth element abundances).
The whole hypothesis is shredded to the tiniest shreds of shredded shreds that you can imagine. It's got no supporting evidence at all, and huge swathes of evidence against it ; it's got no mechanisms by which it could work, and requires the breaking of pretty basic laws of nature (conservation of mass, energy and angular momentum, for starters). Also, there have always been better-supported hypotheses addressing the same basic question.
In Pythonian terms, the hypothesis is only staying on it's perch due to having been nailed to it. And of course, people who vaguely remember hearing something about it many years ago repeat it.
Don't do that - the hypothesis is dead dead dead. Repeat, it's dead. It's an ex-hypothesis. It's not pining for the fjords, stunned, or fallen off it's perch but it's dead. It has ceased to be. It has fallen off it's perch and gone to join the choir immortal. It's dead.

This "Moon came from the Pacific" hypothesis differs from some other not-even-wrong hypotheses in that it was honestly proposed, and almost instantly retracted as it's deficiencies became clear. That makes it academically more satisfying than, for examples, Creationism and ExpandingEarthism, but no more correct than either.

well

[mastershake_phd]

After the many expeditions to Tunguska, wouldn't one of them have noticed a crater shaped lake? From what I saw on a documentary about it the first expedition drained and dug in every hole they found in that swamp.

Re:Well

[Anonymous Coward]

There wouldn't be any shocked quartz without a rather noticeable impact structure. So yes, shocked quartz would pretty well prove that a big lump of something fairly sturdy smashed in to the Earth there, but so would the huge crater that would necessarily be left behind. Since there is no huge crater it's fair to assume shocked quartz, or shatter cones, or other impact related structures simply aren't relevant to this event.

The presence of shocked quartz would instead indicate that there had been some major impact at some time in the past, somewhere close enough that some process could deliver the shocked quartz to wherever it would hypothetically be found. But it wouldn't necessarily say anything about the 1908 event, and would probably be totally irrelevant since such a hypothetical impact responsible for creating shocked quartz could be, and probably would be, millions of years old. (Since there aren't any young obvious impact craters in the area.)

Any rock with shocked quartz from the event would have almost certainly been part of the bolide, so it wouldn't be the shocked quartz that told the investigator anything -- rather it would be the simple presence of the fragment to begin with. To date, no meteorites have been found associated with the event.

Shocked quartz, among other things, can be helpful in identifying ancient impact structures which can be eroded to oblivion at the surface of the Earth through geologic time. Shocked quartz wouldn't, however, tell us so much about a modern impact because we'd probably notice the hole.

The fact that no shocked quartz has been found is consistent with the conspicuous absence of a large crater and pieces of meteorite.

Re:Well

[Technician]

Shocked quartz could solve the matter once and for all.

Will you settle for small glass beads?

http://www.orble.com/the-tunguska-eventmeteor-come t-or-ufo/

Scroll down the page to the photo of the beads. There were reports of these embeded in the bark of some of the downed trees.

Re:Well

[bcmm]

Trees directly under the airburst experienced no force sideways, as the shockwave came straight down, and thus were not knocked over. Some were observed to be stripped of their branches. The ones further out got a significant horizontal component to the blast and so were knocked over. The pattern of damage to the trees would seem to make an airburst almost certain. The most this crater could be is where a small fragment of debris landed.

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

Florenskiy dismissed the crater hypothesis in 1961:

Silt specimens from Lake Chekoand the lake in the bend of the River in the west morass were collected for subsequent stratigraphic study (P.N. Paley et al.) with a grab dredge and a swamp drill designed by N.I. P'yavchenko.

The various samplings from the bottom of Lake Cheko (P'yavchenko, Kozlovskaya) revealed extensive development of silt up to 7 meters deep, indicating an ancient origin for the lake (tentatively estimated at 5000 to 10,000 years), thus completely contradicting the hypothesis of the formation of the lake as a result of the Tunguska meteorite fall (V. Koshelev, 1960).

I couldn't find a rebuttal of this argument by the Bologna team, other than this:

"Expeditions in the 1960s concluded the lake was not an impact crater, but their technologies were limited," Longo said.

source

what would we find here

[wizardforce]

Now what would we find at this site if it were the tunguska impact crater? since it was likely mostly ice/volatiles mixed with some rocky material would it be fair to say that we wouldnt be finding evidence of shok metamorphosis when the volatiles likely carried off most of the heat? for that matter, would there even be a single crater when the original object shattered as it did? wouldnt it be likely that several small impacts form and over the years erode?

Re:what would we find here

[Anonymous Coward]

would it be fair to say that we wouldnt be finding evidence of shok metamorphosis when the volatiles likely carried off most of the heat?

If we're claiming it hit hard enough to make a frickin' crater, then no.

Re:what would we find here

[element-o.p.]

What's the basis of your statement that the Tunguska Fireball was "likely mostly ice/volatiles"?

I'm a computer geek, not an astronomer or geologist, so take this for what it's worth, but I would be really surprised to learn that any meteorite was a mixture of ice and volatiles. First, every astronomy book I've ever read claims that most meteorites are made of nickel, iron and other metals, not ice and other volatiles (that's the composition of comets). Second, falling through the atmosphere generally tends to generate a lot of frictional heating -- after all, the vast majority of meteors don't hit they earth, but instead burn up in the atmosphere -- and therefore I would suspect that, unless it were originally very, very large, most of the material from a comet wouldn't survive reentry, and would instead vaporize in the upper atmosphere.

Re:what would we find here

[Anonymous Coward]

... but that is what seems to have happened.

Re:what would we find here

[wizardforce]

most meteors that hit the ground are indeed composed of refractory materials but very large objects made primarily of ices eg. volatiles can indeed enter the atmosphere and survive quite a trip. what was thought about tunguska was that it was a chunk of a comet or something that was mainly ices and shattered due to atmospheric stresses, and yes this object is thought to be quite large, nearly 100 feet or so.

Re:what would we find here

[element-o.p.]

Interesting. I hadn't read that it was thought Tunguska was a chunk of a comet, but I haven't researched Tunguska especially thoroughly.

Thanks for the enlightenment! :)

Re:what would we find here

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to what the OP mentioned, meteoroid and comet may be loosely seperated terms. It is generally thought that there is a fairly continuous spectrum of possible compositions of minor objects in space.

In fact, only about 5% of the recovered meteorites are of an iron-nickel composition, despite the fact that these are the most likely to survive.

Furthermore, carbonaceous chondrite meteorites, rare on earth because of their delicacy, but possibly more common in space, are likely closely related to comets. They have distinctly high concentrations of water and organic material and may be smaller chunks of the same remnants of solar system formation that comets are thought to be.

The fact that the Tunguska object exploded in air is also supportive of a similar, low density/strength composition.

Some links for your fun/edification:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorite#Meteorite_t ypes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonaceous_chondrit e
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event#Astero id_or_comet.3F

In other news...

[Critical Facilities]

A University of Bologna team says a lake near the epicenter of the blast may be occupying a crater hollowed out by a chunk of rock that hit the ground.

An official with the University of Horseshit was quoted as saying "That's not a lake, that's partially liquified alien spaceships.". Reached for a response prior to teaching a class at the College of Bullcrap, Professor Dumbass had the following to say, "Well, it could be a meteor, it could be a meatball, who can say really?"

Re:In other news...

[ShinySteelRobot]

Professor Dumbass had the following to say...[snip]

It's "Dumas".

Re:In other news...

[fonik]

Perhaps they should use Carl Sagan's Bologna Detection Kit. I was searching for the segment from Cosmos episode 2 where he talks about Tunguska and I was surprised to find that he had a ready-made kit specifically for this claim!

Re:In other news...

[zolaar]

"Well, it could be a meteor, it could be a meatball, who can say really?"

I would say that the University of Bologna is uniquely qualified in this case.

Looking at the research done by their premiere scholars (Meyer, Oscar, et. al.), they have unequivocably dominated the field in question.

Well

[Bandman]

Shocked quartz could solve the matter once and for all.

Trees standing near the impact site aren't that big of an anomaly, although they do point to an airborne explosion. IIRC some of the witnesses reported that there were standing trees, and modeling of the event (as well as other powerful explosions which occurred at an altitude) have left standing trees, edifaces, and so on, directly below the force of explosion.

Personally, I'm still hoping for Tesla's Death Ray

55 Fiction

[Carthag]

In the far reaches of the Siberian tundra, the shaman sits naked. To his left, the head of a freshly slain hare, to his right, a small bundle of herbs. As he calls out in the old language that he is the last to know, the sky lights up like a thousand suns.

Tunguska remembers.

Re:55 Fiction

[jollyreaper]

In the far reaches of the Siberian tundra, the shaman sits naked. To his left, the head of a freshly slain hare, to his right, a small bundle of herbs. As he calls out in the old language that he is the last to know, the sky lights up like a thousand suns.

Tunguska remembers. With a story like that, I'd certainly hope it wasn't Pepperidge Farms.

Re:55 Fiction

[hazem]

What is that from? I love the imagery... a whole lot said in 4 short sentences.

Re:55 Fiction

[Carthag]

wrote it myself, so thanks :)

Re:55 Fiction

[MichaelSmith]

If you get a chance, read Storming the Cosmos by Bruce Sterling

Thank goodness

[N3WBI3]

I was wondering where I left that..

Hah! Everyone knows it wasnt a meteorite...

[Tmack]

It was a quantum black hole passing through the earth!

The most they will ever find is a nano sized cave where it traveled through the earth at near-light speed before going about its way after popping out through an ocean on the other side....

tm

More like blast effect crater?

[MtViewGuy]

I don't think there is a "true" impact crater per se, but more like the possibility that the explosion of the object very low off the ground causing a very strong blast wave that did result in something that looks like a crater. It would be akin to the low-altitude air burst nuclear explosions of over 1 MT during the early 1960's atmospheric tests from nuclear bombs dropped from B-52 bombers.

Dangerous

[xinjiang77]

Since no man has discovered the blast site until now, how do we know the object is not composed of highly dangerous contaminants/heavy metals that humans have not discovered yet?

Re:Dangerous

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, 'heavy metals that we haven't discovered yet'.

Keep reading the textbooks.

Re:Dangerous

[Farmer Tim]

how do we know the object is not composed of highly dangerous contaminants/heavy metals that humans have not discovered yet?

The expedition member wearing the red shirt came back alive.

Re:Dangerous

[xaositects]

some heavy metal was not meant to be discovered... Motley Crue, for instance...

Oh sure

[Grashnak]

Oh, and I just bet you doubters have a better explanation for a hole in the ground full of water? I thought not.

Re:Oh sure

[Hoi Polloi]

Pffft, obviously it is the flooded entrance to the hollow earth where Hitler and his UFO riding Nazi pals are hiding. Any other questions?

Re:Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, so THAT'S where that disappearing lake went!

The Easy Question Is...

[Nom du Keyboard]

The easy question is, was there any record of this lake before the explosion?

Follow up with, are there other lakes that didn't exist before the explosion, but do since?

Re:The Easy Question Is...

[geekoid]

assuming it didn't hit a lake that already existed.

Re:The Easy Question Is...

[moore.dustin]

Real easy question huh? It was in 1906. It was in a very remote area (Nobody is believed to have died in the explosion). So, you think the indigenous people, who chalked the explosion up the the fury of their god; had the area which is remote even to them, all mapped out and surveyed in 1906?

Re:The Easy Question Is...

[jgoemat]

The article says there's no record of that lake on any maps prior to 1929, but the area was poorly explored.

Nonsense

[Jerek Dain]

Sounds like a bunch of bologna to me.

Not just Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

The wiki article on Tunguska lists several speculative causes of the 'event' in addition to Tesla. It seems to be the Russian equivalent of Area 51.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

Speculative hypotheses

Scientific understanding of the behaviour of meteorites in the Earth's atmosphere was much sparser during the early decades of the 20th century. Due to this lack of knowledge, as well as a paucity of scientific data about Tunguska due to Soviet secrecy during the Cold War, a great many other hypotheses for the Tunguska event have sprung up, with varying degrees of credibility. The hypotheses listed below are all rejected by modern science and by skeptics who generally see them as being gross violations of Occam's Razor

Natural H-bomb

In 1989, the astronomers D'Alessio and Harms suggested that some of the deuterium in a comet entering the Earth atmosphere may have undergone a nuclear fusion reaction, leaving a distinctive signature in form of carbon-14. They concluded that the release of nuclear energy may have been almost negligible. Independently, in 1990, César Sirvent proposed that a deuterium comet, i.e., a comet with an anomalous high concentration of deuterium into its composition, may have exploded as a natural hydrogen bomb, generating most of the energy released. The sequence would be first a mechanical or kinetic explosion, and instants later a thermonuclear reaction generated by this first explosion. This hypothesis would explain the inconsistences related to an unusual high ratio of electromagnetic energy / kinetic energy and cited in the famous paper by Cowan, Atluri, and Libby published in Nature.[citation needed] It is, however, inconsistent with knowledge both of the composition of comets and of the temperature and pressure conditions necessary for initiating a nuclear fusion reaction.

[edit] Black hole

In 1973, Albert A. Jackson IV and Michael P. Ryan, Jr., physicists at the University of Texas, proposed that the Tunguska event was caused by a "small" (around 10-20 g to 10-22 g) black hole passing through the Earth. Unfortunately for this hypothesis, there is no evidence for a second explosion occurring as the black hole exited the Earth and it has not gained wide acceptance. Furthermore, Stephen Hawking's subsequent hypothesis that black holes radiate energy via Hawking radiation indicates that such a small black hole would have evaporated away long before it could encounter the Earth.

[edit] Antimatter

In 1965, Cowan, Atluri, and Libby suggested that the Tunguska event was caused by the annihilation of a chunk of antimatter falling from space. However, as with the other hypotheses described in this section, this does not account for the mineral debris left in the area of the explosion. Furthermore, there is no astronomical evidence for the existence of such chunks of antimatter in our region of the universe. If such objects existed, they should be constantly producing energetic gamma rays due to annihilation against the interstellar medium, but such gamma rays have not been observed.

[edit] The Wardenclyffe Tower

It has been suggested, by Oliver Nichelson, that the Tunguska explosion may have been the result of an experiment by Nikola Tesla using the Wardenclyffe Tower, performed during one of Robert Peary's North Pole expeditions.[6]

[edit] UFO crash

UFO aficionados have long claimed that the Tunguska event is the result of an exploding alien spaceship or even an alien weapon going off to "save the Earth from an imminent threat". This hypothesis appears to originate from a science fiction story penned by Soviet engineer Alexander Kazantsev in 1946, in which a nuclear-powered Martian spaceship, seeking fresh water from Lake Baikal, blew up in mid-air. This story was inspired by Kazantsev's visit to Hiroshima in late 1945.

Many events in Kazantsev's tale were subsequently confused with the actual occurrences at Tunguska

Kayne West version

[Kohath]

The Tunguska explosion happened because George Bush doesn't care about Black Oil.

Not a troll

[drinkypoo]

It's not a troll. It's called humor. And it's entirely ontopic and appropriate as well - the article basically has a bunch of people saying "it might be some shit" but they have no proof whatsoever. They claim to have ruled out several other possibilities which led them to the "conclusion" (how do you come to a conclusion with no evidence?) that it was the Tunguska impact crater. Now let's see, how many problems are there with this?

1. Tunguska probably wouldn't even have a crater, because it was an airburst. At best, it would have several small ones, which might not even be detectable any more.
2. The article claims that if there were a crater, it would be shaped differently.
3. There is no supporting evidence that this was the Tunguska crater.

Now, if they dig into this lake and figure out what the submerged lump in it is, which might be a rock and might just be a lump of sediment, then this will be more interesting. But this is a completely non-story story. There are no facts here, other than that some people have made an assumption which might or might not be warranted, because they lacked imagination to come up with hypotheses they couldn't shoot down.

A better title would be "Scientists believe they have located Tunguska Crater without corroborating evidence".

Parent comment, even if intended to be a joke just about the name of the Uni (I do not believe it is, based on having RTFA, shock amazement) is still entirely apt. Perhaps the bonehead who modded it troll should check out the moderation guidelines?

Re:Not a troll

[Critical Facilities]

Parent comment, even if intended to be a joke just about the name of the Uni (I do not believe it is, based on having RTFA, shock amazement) is still entirely apt. Perhaps the bonehead who modded it troll should check out the moderation guidelines?
Actually, I was intending both (and thanks for the defensive argument). I too thought the article was a little light on facts and made some admittedly juvenile cracks about the name of the Uni (gimme a break, it's late in the day and I'm tired). I was definitely not trolling.

Re:Not a troll

[drinkypoo]

thanks for the defensive argument

We the mismoderated must stick together, because it's abundantly clear that the management of slashdot has no intention of addressing the failings in the moderation system or policing the results of its spectacularly bad design.

And for those of you who think I'm an ass, remember this next time you get mismoderated; you might not agree with what I say, but if you don't speak up for the assholes, there will be no one left to speak up on your behalf - because we nails that stick up furthest get hammered down first.

Re:Not a troll

[rhakka]

wow, way to adapt a very noble sentiment to your extremely trivial situation. Martyr much?

Ok, that's a little flip, but your user page shows no mod bombing or anything. got a link to one of these egregious affronts to common decency you're the brunt of?

Re:Not a troll

[drinkypoo]

wow, way to adapt a very noble sentiment to your extremely trivial situation. Martyr much?

Wow, way to speak sarcastically about my comment in an attempt to discredit my statement. Asshole much?

Ok, that's a little flip, but your user page shows no mod bombing or anything. got a link to one of these egregious affronts to common decency you're the brunt of?

I haven't had anything serious in the last couple of days, because I haven't pissed in anyone's Cheerios lately. I seem to go through waves of being an asshole and not, but lately I've been making a serious effort to be civil. I haven't always succeeded, but I've been paring it down substantially. Typically though, I'm not just being modded "Flamebait" when I'm being an asshole - at least that would be reasonable. Instead, I'm typically moderated "Overrated", which is almost all cases is simply a dodge used for bullshit moderation so that it doesn't go through metamoderation.

I post enough comments to where the serial abuses of moderation (several of which have been directed at me since I began posting here, which like many other users was after substantial lurking) tend to be somewhat lost in the noise. But when they all come in the context of one conversation (as they occasionally do) they are especially damaging.

Also, how many deliberate mismoderations do there have to be before you believe it's a problem?

Re:Not a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't feed the trolls - when drinkypoo says something stupid, let it slide.

Re:Not a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

The Slashdot moderation system is a terrible method of separating out good posts from bad posts, but all the other ones I've seen are even worse.

Re:Not a troll

[Hoi Polloi]

"the article basically has a bunch of people saying "it might be some shit" but they have no proof whatsoever. They claim to have ruled out several other possibilities which led them to the "conclusion" (how do you come to a conclusion with no evidence?) that it was the Tunguska impact crater."

You've just described the reasoning used in virtually every UFO show I've seen.

Re:Not a troll

[rhakka]

it needs to be a fairly consistent problem. this is a user moderated system. As such, it is not perfect. In fact, no system is perfect. So if someone shits on your posts with mod points once in awhile, that's not really cause for concern. Crying about how slashdot is broken, and playing the martyr just makes you look psycho unless you can back it up. there are plenty of people on this site who have no grasp on reality, so why can't you be one of them?

You can say I'm an asshole, and I suppose I'm not being terribly diplomatic. But Especially if you yourself acknowledge you go through waves of being an asshole, let me just clue you in: karma is not just a point system. If you piss in people's cheerios, they are less charitable with what you have to say. For instance, you're probably not going to look too favorably toward me after this, right? Cause I have told you I think you sound pretty psycho or at least overly dramatic about this. Does that change the content of everything I post after this? no, just your perspective. does that mean slashdot is broken? If you get mod points and decide you think I'm an asshole, I might have some consequences from this.

But it would be the seeds I myself have sown, wouldn't it. Funny how that works... kind of like, I don't know.... karma.

Re:Not a troll

[Delight-Delirium]

Let's get one thing straight, it was NOT an air burst, it was an alien spaceship, and the explosion planted the seeds of communism across the glorious Russian frontier!!

Or something like that

Re:Not a troll

[drinkypoo]

Crying about how slashdot is broken, and playing the martyr just makes you look psycho unless you can back it up.

But senor, I can back it up. But it will be with the same tired arguments (about the Overrated and Funny mods, among others) that it will not be interesting to anyone. So I tend to speak in generalities. We can have that conversation, if you like, but I warn you now that it will be tedious.

You can say I'm an asshole, and I suppose I'm not being terribly diplomatic. But Especially if you yourself acknowledge you go through waves of being an asshole, let me just clue you in: karma is not just a point system. If you piss in people's cheerios, they are less charitable with what you have to say. For instance, you're probably not going to look too favorably toward me after this, right? Cause I have told you I think you sound pretty psycho or at least overly dramatic about this.

On one hand, I will think you are more of a wanker than I already did :) but on the other hand, no, I will not judge your comments based on you. I may be more or less likely to read the whole comment, but I have set myself 'unwilling to moderate' (in protest over the farce which is the moderation system) and so I don't need to read whole comments because, well, I don't moderate them. If I am going to reply I will [almost] certainly read the entire comment.

The moderation system is broken by design because it will not allow you to comment and moderate in the same discussion, and you have to be a commenter to have enough karma to even moderate, which means that one of two things will happen:

1. People moderate in discussions they understand and thus are qualified to moderate, in which case they cannot comment, and the overall quality of comments drops.
2. People moderate in discussions they do not understand, and thus are unqualified to moderate, leading to bad moderation (which we have all seen repeatedly, I'm sure - and as separated from actual abuse. Sometimes, you can tell the difference easily. Usually not.)

So no matter how you slice it, the effect of the moderation system might be partly positive, but it is also partly negative by design. The method by which a cadre of moderators is used actually makes more sense; if you can't trust people to moderate and comment in the same story, then you can't trust them to moderate period, so why give them modpoints? At least, that's my premise.

But no, I most emphatically do not hold grudges in most cases. Maybe it's just a result of my bad memory, but I KNOW it's not that in all cases, because you can often find me holding debates with people who I have formerly had on my foes list (e.g. twitter) and not calling them names or otherwise being an ass.

I also do not hesitate to point out when I think someone on my friends list is making an error.

People who judge comments by their authors, and not by their content, are enemies to slashdot just as surely as those who judge research by its authors, and not by its science, are enemies of science. This doesn't mean you shouldn't be biased; we're all biased. It means that you should take your bias into account when making logical judgements which effect others, in which emotion typically has little place.

Re:Not a troll

[rhakka]

Fair points, and worth consideration. much better than acting like a martyr. it is a little overblown talking about 'enemies of slashdot'... any user-focused system has to taken into account biased and imperfectly reasoned responses. This system has meta moderation, which I believe affects the return rate of mod points for people, yes?

I suppose allowing people to post AND moderate could be an improvement, but on the other hand, I think it also raises the rate of knee-jerk moderation, since if you are posting you EITHER know the topic well AND/OR feel strongly about it.. that's all. I'm not an expert on every topic I post on. With the volume of your posts, I doubt you are either.

Plus you can still post in conversations as AC. You just lose the benefit of any personal "karma" you have built up, but with the user base slashdot has, chances are there that the post, if good, would be recognized and rewarded anyway, if it's good.

But no system is perfect. This is one of the more elegant I've seen though.

Re:Not a troll

[drinkypoo]

I'm not an expert on every topic I post on. With the volume of your posts, I doubt you are either.

Of course. But my point is that if I did have modpoints, I could be one or the other; an expert moderator, or an expert commenter.

Plus you can still post in conversations as AC.

Try it sometime; moderate, then post as an AC. Your moderations will be reversed. Unless, of course, you come in from an entirely different IP. Yes, multiple slashdotters behind a single proxy can have problems with this.

But no system is perfect. This is one of the more elegant I've seen though.

It has its good points, and a multitude of good ideas; unfortunately, they are compromised by anyone intelligent enough to game the system, which isn't that hard, especially since the flaws are built right in.

Re:Not a troll

[rhakka]

interesting, I didn't realize that about moderation reversal (just saw ACs explaining they had already moderated). Interesting indeed!

Thing is... who should be determining what is highly rated?

If only experts determine it, then you get posts by experts, useful to experts.

If laymen determine it, then you get explanations useful to laymen.. or at least, that THEY THINK are useful.

That's not perfect, but it's also not perfect to have a bunch of gobbledygook that no one without a phD can read, which is the devil of your proposal at the extreme.

Fact is, a post is not perfect for everyone. the question is entirely who are you filtering for? slashdot is filtering for a larger audience. that does mean that some very good stuff will be unrecognized and some crap will rise. but by and large, it works for getting useful information to reasonably intelligent laymen.. and if you are REALLY interested, you read more than just the highly rated posts.

Re:Not a troll

[drinkypoo]

If only experts determine it, then you get posts by experts, useful to experts.

That's not necessarily true. For instance, when NewYorkCountryLawyer explains some legal mumbo-jumbo, it comes out quite clearly. The law is still fucking insane in many cases, but that's not his fault :)

If laymen determine it, then you get explanations useful to laymen.. or at least, that THEY THINK are useful.

And see, what happens in the current model is that the people who know better have two choices. They can reply with a more accurate explanation, and not moderate, hoping someone else will take care of it, or they can moderate, and hope someone else will explain why they are wrong. I think it is pretty clear that whatever else you might replace the current system with, THIS facet of it is a serious problem.

if you are REALLY interested, you read more than just the highly rated posts.

And I often do! Usually, however, this is restricted to reading replies (or parents) to highly-rated comments, because let's face it, slashdot has a filter for a reason, and I use it for the same reason: it takes too long to vet all comments manually. So we have a certain amount of wheat discarded with chaff. Is it an emergency? Of course not. Slashdot is a wankfest, it's entertainment. But at the same time, there's no reason that we shouldn't try to make it all that it can be, so to speak, either.

Re:Not a troll

[rhakka]

true, but assume for one minute, you know better. you choose to post, clarifying a point that is already made with your superior knowledge. Sadly, your brilliance goes unrecognized.

Well, what did you respond to? A highly rated post or a reply, right? Since, as you note, no one has the time to read all the posts.

So anyone really interested can still quite easily come across that nugget of wisdom... it was found by one interested party and can thus presumably be found by others who run into that higher rated post and decide to read further.

I am all about improvements, and I'm not saying your idea would be any worse, it might even be slightly better (I doubt it given the knee jerk moderation that seems likely, but maybe, sure). but you are definitely overdramatic about being the victim of bad moderation. which in turn... reasonable, rational, fair or not... will only help increase the amount of unfair moderation directed at you. got to love self fulfilling prophecies! they are so predictable. given such behaviour, I'm neither surprised nor concerned if some moderators react unfavorably toward you.

however, it has been a pleasure discussing THIS with you at least. so I hope any hard feelings will be minimal ;)

Re:Not a troll

[drinkypoo]

however, it has been a pleasure discussing THIS with you at least. so I hope any hard feelings will be minimal ;)

I forget the book in question, but an ex-housemate of mine self-described himself by quoting something to the effect of "He did not suffer fools gladly - and his definition of fool is broader than most." This describes me fairly well. If you say some incredibly stupid shit or I feel you're deliberately misrepresenting me, then I have a certain tendency to "go off".

Otherwise, I am usually quite civil, and I do my best to marshal logical arguments to support my points. So it's no wonder, based on the prior comments, that we were able to have a positive dialogue :)

Re:Not a troll

[pilbender]

Agreed. I don't use moderation filtering in my Slashdot reading. I turn the filtering all the way down all the time.

I don't ever want someone else to decide what's worth while and what's not. I refuse to participate in voluntary censoring. Sometimes I'll look at the moderation for a clue as to what other people think about a post but that's as far as it goes. I see lot's of people post good things with bad karma and people post bad things with good karma.

Following the content line of reasoning already espoused by others, it makes no sense to go into Slashdot if you don't want to think for yourself. Might as well go to a cable news station where they can spoon feed you by "properly" interpreting what parts of a subject "they" want to report. You go to Slashdot so you don't have to put up with that nonsense. It does mean that you have to work harder to get information here, but that's part of good citizenship in a Democracy (Representative Republic for the nit pickers).

Moderation filtering is a ruse and anyone relying on it should do so with skepticism.

Re:Not a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

oh my god, please shut the fuck up already.

your comments about negative evidence were stupid enough.

Re:Not a troll

[Llamalarity]

and you have to be a commenter to have enough karma to even moderate,

Not true. I had mod points before I ever made a comment. A still occasionally receive them despite no additional karma from my tiny hand full of posts. The system is not broke. True it is not perfect and never will be, but it is not broken. Any changes I can think of that might benefit me would quickly be abused by others. Or just make things so complacated no one would moderate at all.

Re:Not a troll

[WilliamSChips]

The OP got a +5 Funny. Maybe it's due to your efforts but what Slashdot really needs is moderation history or something.

Re:Not a troll

[drinkypoo]

The OP got a +5 Funny. Maybe it's due to your efforts but what Slashdot really needs is moderation history or something.

No matter how you slice it, I don't deserve all the credit. I mean, it was funny. I was mostly annoying. But sometimes being annoying gets things done :)

Gas Explosion

[BigBadBus]

According to the article on the BBC website, no-one knows if the lake was there before or after the blast.

Anyway, the theory is a lot more convincing than the theory that a fissure caused a release of gas which exploded, and was mentioned in one of Arthur C.Clarke's "Mysterious World" books.

Re:Gas Explosion

[flyingfsck]

Hmm, maybe they'll find a whale skeleton at the bottom of the lake. So long and thanks for the fish...

Re:Gas Explosion

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean, Swamp Gas Explosion(tm)?

What about Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

No one ever will find an impact crater, because Nikola Tesla did it

any idea how large the region is?

[iHasaFlavour]

Tunguska is big, really big..

And extremely remote. It's not even slightly surprising that this was missed.

The original expidition didn't head to the impact site until years after the event, and still they found a devastated surface, and no-one went back again for a very long time.

Until fairly recently it just wasn't feasable to do any kind of large scale study of the region. I think people sometimes forget just how barking huge our planet is, you'd be amazed at the number of area's that are still effectivelly blanks on the map, or mapped by air/satellite only.

Re:any idea how large the region is?

[btgreat]

Also, I believe TFA mentioned that the lake wasn't really crater shaped. It was elliptical enough that the impact would have had to have been at less than 10 degrees according to the article. Even if it was found, it would have been possible that it was disregarded in an early survey.

Re:any idea how large the region is?

[fimbulvetr]

Just for some perspective, it appears this area is on about the 60th parallel. If this were north america, this would be about where Canadian Manitoba/SK end on the north end, and Yukon/Northwest Territories begin. This isn't like a vacation to Vancouver.

Re:any idea how large the region is?

[Anonymous Coward]

you'd be amazed at the number of area's that are still effectivelly blanks on the map, or mapped by air/satellite only.

where? are they habitable? Can I move there now?

Re:any idea how large the region is?

[Anonymous Coward]

Finding ground zero in 1908 was easy, I've seen many photos from multiple expeditions from the period. It was hard going getting there, not the actual locating it. There is no impact zone because it never hit the earth.

All the trees were blown down in the same direction, so the explorers simply followed them back in the opposite direction until they reached a central point. The center was determined because all trees were pointing away from them, except a few in the center that remained standing, but stripped of limbs.

This is what tells us the thing exploded above ground, just like Hiroshima. Just like Hiroshima, years later, the new plant life exhibited abnormal growth.

Looking for a crater is pointless. At best, there'll be small fragments scattered around. But such meteor debris is found all over the world.

Re:any idea how large the region is?

[Old Wolf]

Tunguska is big, really big..

Further away than the chemist in the morning?

Re:Huge penis failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! That crater really is huge! Oh wait.. it's a man stretching his bottom open.

Re:Huge penis failure

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe its not horsecock.

The easy answer (FTFA) is ...

[benhocking]

No. However, it was a poorly surveyed area, so non-existence of (prior) evidence is not evidence of (prior) non-existence.

Finally a good science quote

[cvd6262]

I'm so tired of hearing "researchers" talk about the certainties of their discoveries. This is a breath of fresh air:

"We have no positive proof this is an impact crater, but we were able to exclude some other hypotheses, and this led us to our conclusion," Professor Longo, the research team leader, told BBC News.

Unfortunately

[porkchop_d_clown]

The most widely accepted explanation for not finding the crater is that there isn't one: Most geologists believe the Tunguska object exploded in the air. (This sounds crazy, but it's apparently possible - just as a person doing a belly flop off a cliff is going to be killed by the impact, a meteor can be destroyed by the impact with the lower atmosphere.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

Re:Unfortunately

[Ironsides]

Knew about that without even looking at the post. I heard that theory years ago as the most plausible explanation. I was just pointing out a bit of logic to the parent.

Re:Unfortunately

[btgreat]

Even the researchers from the article believe that.. The difference here is that they think a small piece of the airbursted object survived and hit the ground, causing a small crater - the lake. At least, thats what I got out of TFA.

Re:Unfortunately

[Mac Scientist]

Most geologists believe the Tunguska object exploded in the air. (This sounds crazy, but it's apparently possible - just as a person doing a belly flop off a cliff is going to be killed by the impact, a meteor can be destroyed by the impact with the lower atmosphere.)

That's sort of a correct picture. For a more scientific explanation, meteors come in roughly three kinds: all iron, all stone conglomerate, and a mix of the two. When entering the atmosphere, one side, or just the surface, of the meteor gets very hot, while the inside is still near absolute zero temperature of space. For the kind that is mostly stone (carbonaceous chondrite, to be precise), this temperature gradient causes immense and sudden expansion of the conglomerate rocky materials. For bigger meteors, that means a huge explosion, with fragmentation of the meteor into much smaller bits. If the meteor is big enough, even those smaller bits can be fairly big. It is thought that most of the smaller earth craters have been formed by iron meteorites that do not experience catastrophic explosions.

It is interesting that this presumed crater is away from the burst point. If others could be found, it might indicate the trajectory, which would help to understand other details: how big, makeup, velocity, etc...

Hydrothermal crater?

[ozbird]

From memory, a funnel-shaped profile is what you would expect from a hydrothermal crater (steam explosion) - no impact required. A quick Google indicates that hydrothermal activity occurred throughout the region in the past, so it's plausible. (The articles claims "[they] were able to exclude some other hypotheses", but doesn't state what those hypotheses were.)

Source

[MatchbooksAndSarcasm]

I wonder if they considered the possibility that this is just the water from that other lake that mysteriously dried up recently?

"Ray, the lake migrated about a foot and a half."

Kolchak. KOLCHAK. Karl Kolchak!

[porkchop_d_clown]

He hated when people got his name wrong. ;-)

And the actor's name was Darrin Mcgavin. He was also the original "Oscar Goldman" in the pilots for the 6 Million Dollar Man.

It would be nice to get the original TV movies for that show; I picked up the series for cheap, but I remember the original movies being a lot scarier. Of course I was 8 years old when I saw them....

Re:Kolchak. KOLCHAK. Karl Kolchak!

[FauxReal]

They had a marathon of The Night Stalker on SciFi a few months ago... I had never seen the show before. It was awesome... I only wish they'd just syndicate it on SciFi instead of showing wrestling. I mean seriously, if they're going to show wrestling at least make it sorta SciFi wrestling like showing Kaiju Big Battle or something.

Re:Kolchak. KOLCHAK. Karl Kolchak!

[farrellj]

The original Night Stalker series was excellent, the remake was OK...but could have become excellent if it had been continued....:-(

ttyl
          Farrell

Re:Kolchak. KOLCHAK. Karl Kolchak!

[NoMaster]

It would be nice to get the original TV movies for that show; I picked up the series for cheap ...

Go figure... I can buy the original Night Stalker & Night Strangler telemovies here in Aus, but not the series.

(As a matter of fact, I did wake up this morning and think "I wonder if I can buy the original Night Stalker on DVD?")

Re:Kolchak. KOLCHAK. Karl Kolchak!

[MacroRex]

Us Europeans are in luck: http://www.play.com/DVD/DVD/4-/1009410/Kolchak-The -Night-Stalker-The-Complete-Series/Product.html?ad d=1009410 I also ordered the box containing both movies. It's region 1, but who doesn't have a multiregion player these days?

Chris Cornell version

[WilliamSChips]

The Tunguska explosion happened because the American populace was sleeping while the Syndicate traded lives for Black Oil.

Re:Chris Cornell version

[WilliamSChips]

Okay, that one didn't work as well because "Wide Awake" doesn't really have the race card in it, instead focusing on more credible accusations of Bush not caring because they're poor. I just think Audioslave deserves a little love.

Re:The problem is...

[jollyreaper]

..the losers who try to take television seriously.

They waste hours making cunts of themselves by arguing online with other fanboys about faggoty shit like "mytharcs" or character motivations, while completely unaware, ironically, how pathetic they look. So what's faggier, having an interest in science fiction or having nothing better to occupy your life with than trolling people on topics you have no interest in? I see your insult of "cunt" and raise you by two "wank-stains."

Re:I'd Like To See Another Tunguska

[WilliamSChips]

You'll be in the cell in Hell right next to Osama, you know that, right?

mmmmm...

[Beefslaya]

Bologna....uhhhhhhhhhhhhh

lol wut

[DJCacophony]

"an unusual feature about 10m down which could either be compacted lake sediments or a buried fragment of space rock"

"Sir we found an anomaly at the bottom of the lake."
"Well, what could it be?"
"It's either dirt, or a ROCK FROM OUTER SPACE!!!"

What's the hold up?

[alta]

They found something interesting 10m below the surface eh? I'm assuming they're using the correct abbreviation of 'm' and that's 10 meters.

So GET IT ALREADY! If it's a pile of dirt you'll know instantly. If it's a lump of kryptonite you'll know instantly.

mortadella ??

[giampy]

Funny that as an Italian i never had the slightest idea on why americans put the Bologna name on the pork sausage ...

Actually, any searches for Bologna invariably returns the city, unless you actually search for "Bologna Meat" which returns this:

American Bologna sandwich meat got its name from the northern Italian town of Bologna. But this favorite of kid's lunches is not the same as the distinctively spiced Italian original, called Mortadella and made in the villages around Bologna, a major trading spot. Traders may have picked up the sausage in Bologna, and the town became identified with the sausage. By the late 19th century in England and America, "bologna" had become the generic name for any type of pork sausage from the Italian town.

Which solves the mistery, except that i would add that "Bologna" evolved to something completely different than Mortadella.

Re:mortadella ??

[jollyreaper]

Funny that as an Italian i never had the slightest idea on why americans put the Bologna name on the pork sausage ... Don't piss off the red staters or they'll start calling it "freedom meat."

Re:mortadella ??

[hachete]

In blighty, we have Spaghetti Bolognese (or Spag Bol) which bears no relation to Italy but the name of the pasta. Bolognese sause, AFIAK, has nothing to do with Italy. Bolognese sausage is unknown here as well these days.

How about some coordinates?

[Hercynium]

'Cause checking it out via google maps/earct could be kinda neat :)

This was no comet!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone knows that explosion was caused by a crashing alien spacecraft. And everyone should also know there are no scientists in Italy.

not news

[Thaelon]

Let me know when you can repost the same story without the question mark and I'll start caring.

An Easier Solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Q: Dad, where are the Andes?

A: Ask your mother, she tidies everything away.

Enough with the Beavis & Butthead humor...

[Simulant]

You didn't really think that Oscar Mayer invented the word did you?

Google Earth... If you can't travel, at least browse a bit.

I admit it's occasionally amusing when you stumble across a foreign word that sounds funny or means something else in your language, but this is ridiculous.

But, I suppose I should be thankful that it wasn't the University of Phuket (Thailand, and there probably isn't one).

Re:Enough with the Beavis & Butthead humor...

[iggymanz]

there is, however, a Bang-Cock, er Bangkok U.

huh-huh huh-huh huh-huh

Re:Enough with the Beavis & Butthead humor...

[z0idberg]

Google.....Phuket Rajabhat University

huh

[Anonymous Coward]

wishing somthing and actually doing somthing are 2 different things.

If he himself flung the meteor at mecca then yes I would agree with you.

Interesting side-note

[rainer_d]

The object that caused the impact moved very fast - it is believed that had it crossed the path of the earth a mere two seconds earlier, it would have hit St. Petersburg.
The consequences on history as we know it might have been dramatic.
But we will never know - the object came done in one of the least densly populated areas of the world instead, forming no crater and only a footnote in some geography-books.

Location

[Alien54]

Ground Zero = 6055N, 10157E (approximately)

Google maps doesn't have much detail, but Google Earth is much better

You can make out individual trees, but I do not see much in terms of individual logs in the blast pattern. Using the BBC info as a guide, you can easily see Lake Cheko

Re:Location

[tuomas_kaikkonen]

You can make out individual trees, but I do not see much in terms of individual logs in the blast pattern.

The Tunguska meteor happened in the year 1908, which means those logs in the blast pattern probably are long gone by now.

A. Ol'khovatov (olkhov.narod.ru) comments on the Italian researcher: " 97. June 23, 2007 News story just appeared ( http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/8134097.html ) that Italian researchers published an article where they proposed that Lake Cheko (about 8 km form the epicenter of the Tunguska event) was formed by an impact of a fragment of 'Tunguska meteorite'! The article is here: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/ j.1365-3121.2007.00742.x Let me make some comments.
The idea was already checked by Soviet/Russian researchers in the year ~ 1960.
Their initial idea to research the lake was that a lot of local surface waters (headwaters) pass through the lake, so the lake's bottom should accumulate substance of the 'Tunguska meteorite' fallen over large area.
They discovered the funnel shape of the lake's bottom, but failed to find any evidences that it was a meteorite crater.
Arguments were the following:
a) there is no any rim around the lake:
b) Forest/trees around the lake is older than ~50 years old in general;
c) a local resident (Evenk who huntered in the area) said that on the place of the lake there was a 'zabolochennaya luzha ' (swampy pool).

So the idea was rejected by Sovet/Rissian researchers. Now the Italians are trying to recover it.
And of course neither Soviet/Russian researchers nor the Italians discovered any fragments/microparticles of the hypothetical 'Tunguska meteorite' despite large-scale digging of the bottom and the lake surroundings. I can add that interrogations of local residents conducted in the early 1960s show that a path from Vanavara settlement to the area of Strelka-Chunya (which later became a settlement too) went through Lake Cheko. So there is practically no chance of the 'sudden appearence' of the lake from a meteorite impact.

But what can't be ruled out is flooding of the lake, as local residents said about fountains of water from the ground and some flooding near the Tunguska epicenter in association the Tunguska event. By the way, for the 'geophysical Tunguska' interpretation the phenomena are explained as being due to tectonic activity (and are known in association with earthquakes).

Anyway, I hope that the article (which possibly will be promoted in mass-media) will help the Italian researchers to get finance/funds to come to Russia next summer and to celebrate 100th Anniversary of Tunguska! :) "

It wasn't a meteor. It was Tesla.

[catmistake]

Discuss.

Is Soviet Italy? I think not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Italy-based scientists in Soviet Siberia = illegal foreigners of NATO in Soviet Siberia. Their jobs are from nuclear weapons.

Italy is not working for Soviet Russia.
Italy is working for United States of America, by example, Italy & US together in MRO's SHARAD.

Berlusconi & his italian partners are stupid.

Please don't discuss pork - it might offend

[NotQuiteReal]

Eat a pig - Go to hell!

Or so I've heard... but they are so tasty, even their by-products are good!

Re:Please don't discuss pork - it might offend

[Babbster]

Indeed. The pig-shit sandwich I had the other day was delicious! Enjoying my cafe urina del maiale while waiting for the check just made the afternoon perfect.

Re:Please don't discuss pork - it might offend

[Anonymous Coward]

That which does not kill us makes us stronger.

Watch Out Italy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Those i-Talians need to stay away from that crater. Haven't they seen THE BLOB? Or worse yet, don't they know who the BORG are?

Signed,

The Cowardly Lion

Tunguska And Scientology.....

[IHC Navistar]

I'll bet 'Tunguska' is Scientologist code-speak for "Xenu".

MOD Parent up

[wisebabo]

Although it is highly(?) unlikely that this is, in fact, the result of a quantum black hole, there was one thing in the article that caught my eye. They said that it was a "funnel shaped lake". If they mean a funnel pointing downward into the earth then doesn't that sound like the result of a small, extremely dense, gravitationally attracting object going through (and coming out, hopefully, on the other side of the planet?).

On the other hand they say that the lake was shallow so what they probably mean by funnel shaped is what it looks like from the air, pointing downhill.

Anyway, I really really doubt it but it is fun to consider.

In Tsar's Russia

[LeadSongDog]

... YOU go kaboomba

Re:The problem is...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but I have to go with the GP here. Talking about TV shows is about the lamest past-time ever.

Yakov Smirnoff Version

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, huge crater finds you.

Oh no!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Megatron!

Singularity

[nahgoe]

You should check out Bill DeSmedt's novel Singularity .
You can also get the book as a free DRM free audio book. (Sorry I can't link directly to the audio book because PodioBooks.com seems to be down.

He has interesting theories (all fiction) about the Tunguska Event.

Re:Singularity

[Jenkoul]

Thanks for the kind words about Singularity (the URL for the free podcast is http://www.podiobooks.com/title/singularity). And, while it's true Singularity is fiction, I also have some non-fiction thoughts on the latest Tunguska "solution" from Bologna. I go into detail on my blog at http://www.myspace.com/billdesmedt, but the bottom line is: Lake Cheko couldn't possibly be a crater formed in the Tunguska Event, because the documentary record (eyewitness accounts) clearly shows that the lake was there long before the June 1908 impact. Best, Bill

Re:Singularity

[nahgoe]

Sorry about the "all fiction" comment.
It is simply a natural defense mechanism, to avoid being flamed by the /. crowd.
I actually found the book very informative, and it encouraged me to do a little personal research on the subject.

Re:Singularity

[Jenkoul]

No apologies necessary -- the book is fiction,after all (I hope!).
Anyway, encouraging a reader to dig further into a subject is one of the best accolades an author can receive.
Thank you,
Bill
http://www.myspace.com/billdesmedt
http://www.singularitythebook.com/

Re:The problem is...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know. I think you may have it beat by trolling threads that talk about TV shows.

Correct use of the word IMPACT!

[AP31R0N]

i'm shocked to see an article make proper use of the word impact!

Re:Impact, eh? Pynchon knows

[kanthaka]

One of the hundreds of side stories in Pynchon's last book is about the mysterious explosion. http://against-the-day.pynchonwiki.com/wiki/index. php?title=ATD_768-791#Page_779 If the Chums of Chance swing by here again soon they can tell us all about it.

Or, even more obscure reference...

[Walkingshark]

This University is delicious! No University should be THIS delicious!

Or, Someone mixed Bologna DNA into my University!

No we like Italians

[random coward]

We wont desparage Italians. How can we when there are Italian heros like Fabrizio Quattrocchi? The Italians may be many things; but they aren't cowards. Even in WWII Italian food remained popular and was never renamed. The "Freedom Fries" is due to the perfidy and cowardice of the French.

Re:No we like Italians

[jollyreaper]

We wont desparage Italians. How can we when there are Italian heros like Fabrizio Quattrocchi? [nationalreview.com] The Italians may be many things; but they aren't cowards. Even in WWII Italian food remained popular and was never renamed. The "Freedom Fries" is due to the perfidy and cowardice of the French. Dude, you're talking about the country that got it's ass kicked by Ethiopia. That's just sad. One does have to give pause when considering Mussolini's views on fascism, saying it should be more properly called corporatism since it allies the interests of state and business. When asked which of the three Axis Powers the US most closely resembles these days, I would have to pick Fascist Italy, complete with the execrable mismanagement of military resources. Your Fabrizio died a pointless, stupid death in Iraq, just like every other soldier involved in that conflict.

No, No!

[PPH]

Leave the rock alone! Haven't they seen Quatermass and the Pit?

Impact? Space Ship Remnants?

[Toad-san]

Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

It just occurred to me.

[porkchop_d_clown]

I'm not sure I understood your last paragrapht; but it suggested to me that it could still be the case that the main body detonated in the air, with a fragment getting thrown laterally and landing to form the lake. That would explain why the shape of the lake doesn't agree with the understood trajectory.

If that's the case, I'd expect the long axis of the lake to point towards the burst point.

If that's what you were trying to tell me, good idea!

Re:The problem is...

[DocStoner]

"wank-stains" roflmo

Thank you... your comment made my day.

I know its flamebait but...can't...resist...

[jzarling]

University of Bologna.
Is anything they say ever taken seriously?

The Enigma of the Tunguska Event

[pln2bz]

The Tunguska event is enigmatic for the sole reason that no popular theory currently in existence can comprehensively explain all of the information that we know about it. Fitting Tunguska to a mainstream impact theory will always invariably involve ignoring some of the details that we know about the event. People here on Slashdot oftentimes mirror the attitudes of traditional scientific culture, which frequently demonstrates preferences and prejudices for particular solutions to problems within the interpretive sciences. It's the very existence of enigmas like Tunguska, the Grand Canyon and the impossible dimensions of the flying and long-necked dinosaurs, to name a few others, that should occasionally inspire objective people to look for answers outside of the mainstream. The fact that this does not happen means that explanations are being ignored for the sole reason that they violate a mainstream substrate for our understanding of the universe (it's the incredible claims require incredible proof argument). But when we do this, the mainstream scientific opinion then becomes a self-perpetuating myth -- an artificial reality that we impose upon ourselves because it suits our preferences. Our scientific institutions must in fact fully investigate all possible explanations of anomalous data if we ever hope to create a popular scientific view that is impervious to challenges. By ignoring the Electric Universe view in particular, people unknowingly ignore what is by far and without question the most satisfying explanation for all of the details of the Tunguska event ...

The uncontested details of the event:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/0602 02tunguska.htm

The EU explanation:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/0602 03tunguska2.htm

If EU Theory is to be a satisfying explanation for this event, then we must expect that we have information from other sources about other similar events that corroborates this concept. And we do. A popular misconception is that the Great Chicago Fire was an isolated incident. In fact, numerous fires instantiated themselves across the country simultaneously, all with very specific and unusual characteristics ...

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/0602 06chicagofire.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/0602 07biela.htm
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/0602 09chicagofire.htm

If Comets are in fact electrical in nature, then we should be able to test this theory scientifically. We have. And the EU Theorists were demonstrated to be right with nearly every single one of their predictions of the Deep Impact mission:

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/0602 09chicagofire.htm

It's not that it is impossible to understand events like Tunguska. It's that people have not *liked* all solutions equally. It's that there are great social barriers to paradigm-shifting changes within the interpretive sciences. There is this sense that in order to accept that some specific thing has a non-traditional explanation, then we would have to immediately and comprehensively present all of the equations and details necessary to explain the entire universe within this new paradigm. But that ignores the fact that it took us decades, if not centuries, to develop the mainstream theories. That's hardly fair at all, and no single person could ever explain the entire univ

Re:The Enigma of the Tunguska Event

[pln2bz]

That Deep Impact link is here:

www.thunderbolts.info/pdf/ElectricComet.pdf

Let me fix that for you...

[p3d0]

Two point fifty jiggawatts!!

But...

[caol.kailash]

In Soviet Russia, craters Tunguska YOU!