Slashdot Mirror
The Intersection of Microsoft, Linux, and China
at_$tephen writes "Fortune magazine has an article stressing the Chinese market's importance to Microsoft's long term strategy, and touching on Linux's involvement in the Chinese market. In the early days of Microsoft rampant piracy helped establish it as the de facto standard in PCs despite good alternatives. History may be unfolding again here, with the exception that having the Chinese government as an ally has huge additional benefits. Or perhaps Gates has met his match with the Chinese government. 'In another boost for Microsoft, the government last year required local PC manufacturers to load legal software on their computers. Lenovo, the market leader, had been shipping as few as 10% of its PCs that way, and even US PC makers in China were selling many machines "naked." Another mandate requires gradual legalization of the millions of computers in state-owned enterprises. In all, Gates says, the number of new machines shipped with legal software nationwide has risen from about 20% to more than 40% in the past 18 months.'"
Never mind this silly-assed story! The real news is that Ninnle Linux is in the next version and ready for the desktop!
All hail our new Ninnle Linux overlords!
I for one am werrcoming our new lowcost outoucing overrolds!
Will code for new sig.
"the number of new machines shipped with legal software nationwide has risen from about 20% to more than 40% in the past 18 months"
And how many of those are government owned? Given the number of pirated copies of my company's software I see attempting to register daily, I really don't believe those numbers.
In Soviet China...
Ah, fsck it. I got no idea where I'm going with this.
Oh wait!
In Soviet China, Tank runs over you!
Wait...
'In another boost for Microsoft, the government last year required local PC manufacturers to load legal software on their computers. Lenovo, the market leader, had been shipping as few as 10% of its PCs that way, and even US PC makers in China were selling many machines "naked."
That's easy to get around if legality of OS is enforced: just load Linux on them. Those who want bogus Windows will just install over it.
Table-ized A.I.
Somehow, the "good alternatives" failed to win... Struggling with Linux was more difficult, than overcoming the anti-piracy measures, I guess?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
This is very good! The more businesses are forced to actually pay for all those MS loaded machines, the easier they might consider using linux.
Go Microsoft!
(This is why I wish copyright protection on software would be 100% succesful: Too many people just download software and keep using it that way, if this would be impossible a fraction of those would pay but many more will start searching alternatives...)
Dependency hell? =>
may be a horrible thing but it probably has something to do with this. That and Chinese getting richer. With 98/2k/etc you could used a burn copy of any MS stuff and it'd all work perfectly with Windows Update and everything else. Now with XP after WGA and especially Vista you can still crack stuff but it becomes more of a hassle if you care about what's on your HDD and want updates and whatever else. So I think these are the reasons the piracy is going down instead of Chinese people suddenly caring about their certificates of authenticity and 3 men holograms :)
FTA
| "It's easier for our software to compete with Linux when there's piracy than when there's not," Gates says. |
OMG... What a business model !!!
It has been precisely the lax means and methods in Microsoft's anti-piracy efforts of the past that helped it to grow so quickly. illegitimate software was even counted in Microsoft's statements describing its market penetration and saturation.
Presently, Microsoft's copy protection has not only been shown to inconvenience legitimate users who upgrade their hardware and the like, but also makes illegitimate software distribution a great deal less convenient. And this is, obviously, to the detriment of Microsoft's present and future market penetration and saturation. Where once "alternatives" were a threat and even a previous reality [read OS/2], people are looking at alternatives once again in the form of Linux and MacOSX. These solutions do not offer the resistance that Windows offers and I think we can see clearly how Microsoft has managed to over-zealously shoot themselves in the foot.
By far the easiest solution for Microsoft would be to remove their copy protection schemes and just kind of look the other way for a while until their saturation once against builds the addictive dependency on Microsoft software that it is presently losing. It may mean some sort of decline in stock values or a leveling-out of revenues, but they would regain something far more important -- market saturation and monopoly control.
Why not just load the machines with a linux or bsd distro? That would meet the "non-naked" PC requirement. If the machines were destin for the Chinese market, then wouldn't Red Flag linux be the default distro?
If the govt becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites man to become his own law, it invites anarchy
You can get the real thing, and you get the same price." Indeed, in China's back alleys, Linux often costs more than Windows because it requires more disks. And Microsoft's own prices have dropped so low it now sells a $3 package of Windows and Office to students.
I do think its unfair that they get a "cost of living adjustment" for software and medicine, yet we have to compete for techie jobs on our own cost of living. They get the best of both worlds. This is another reason why free trade is not fair. They get almost 1st-world wages but only have to pay 3rd-world prices for these items. Tell me this is what Adam Smith and David Ricardo had in mind.
Table-ized A.I.
Hard to copy - failed on the stores.
There was a saying — in the beginning of our Republic — that a good idea can stand on its own, while a bad one needs government help. I can't find the founding father's quote at the moment...
Although recent generations have abandoned that concept (witness Social Security, and Municipal WiFi for examples), to rely on the help of Chinese government is a new low...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
If they don't wna the hassle of loading a disk image of linux on each box, just ship it with a copy of freedos. Its no longer a "naked pc." Dell did it before they decided to "embrace" linux.
It's pretty clear that one of the main uses of Linux is to boot stolen copies of Windows. We all know about the prevalence of software and IP theft in China. Therefore it's only natural that we should see this intersection in that part of the world.
I'm always concerned about all the propaganda that comes out of the pro-Linux camp concerning its number of users. Should those who use Linux only as a boot loader be counted? After all, Linux is barely usable on its own...
Linux ready for the desktop? When it's used to boot into Windows, yeah.
Linux violates 235 Microsoft patents.
* Back then, Linux was about as friendly to the average user as a dominatrix on a meth jag; this had more to do with hardware drivers (or rather, lack thereof) than anything else.
* The other x86 GUI-based alternatives for the typical home user were... OS/2 (insert sarcastic mention of how developers 'loved' writing for it), Geos (well, if you used a Commodore), and, umm... not much else, unless you wanted to lay down some serious dough and buy a Macintosh.
Ease of copying coupled with an interface that really didn't require much in the way of brainpower was what gave Windows its boost.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
The characterization of computers without pre-loaded software as "naked" and mandating that software be bundled with PCs by the retailer is nothing more than an attempt to create a barrier-to-entry into the market. Now, instead of creating your own operating system and just selling it, you have to negotiate with PC retailers (who probably have exclusive contracts with Microsoft) in order to be on the same footing as the more-established players.
That Linux and FreeDOS exist is a convenient workaround to the bundling requirements, but it doesn't negate the anti-competitive nature of Microsoft's "no software implies pirated software" BS.
I can buy a television without subscribing to cable TV service offered by Best Buy, why should a computer (for which there more options) be any different?
http://outcampaign.org/
Regardless of how you feel about MS hegemony, there is a certain practical logic to the argument that a naked PC is sort of a wink to piracy. Yes the owner might transferring over a legal copy of an OS purchased elsewhere. But realistically that's a tiny number. It's always a tricky argument to navigate. When is manufacturing lock picking tools a crime? They do have legitimate uses too. The argument is delicate because we've seen it abused, like with the arguments against the VCR, and these days, DVD ripping. One could go on and find all shades of grey (are people who write trojans and viruses committing crimes?)
In any case, there are other models for dealing with this issue that can be argued both for and against, though if we accept that it is a grey then are logical compromises. Namely system like the canadian model where taxes are paid on media and the proceeds, iirc, go to some recognized royalty distribution system. This anticipates that a lot of ripped music should have been paid for and was not, while also recognizing we can't criminalize everything, and simultaneously not over burdening legitimate use.
So how about if china were to impose a levy on all new PC's sold naked. The money would be shared out among a consortium of major OS makers. GNU/Linux should have a place at that table. I'm not quite sure in what form. But one could I think find some way to assist GNU/linux development even if there is no one recognized authority.
If at some point Linux became a major fraction of OS in China it would also make sense to stop that policy. No longer could one argue that naked PCs are piracy tools.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
The requirement to load legal software is fine as long as this is not the imposition of another Microsoft tax, which means load MS or you cannot sell the computer. So bare computers are being sold. So what? Microsoft shouldn't have any influence on whether this occurs or not. China has a good number of linux users and several of their own distributions. They are all legal. But, unless Microsoft drop their prices significantly for that market they are going to find it hard going to convert the masses. Business might (?) bite the bullet and pass the increased costs onto the customers but I cannot see many home users wanting to spend good money on software that they can get for free, be it linux or a pirated version of a Microsoft offering.
Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
If you read the article, you will see that forcing businesses to pay is what Microsoft started off by doing, quite unsuccessfully. Their usual heavy-handed strategy of suing businesses for pirating their software failed miserably, as the Chinese courts were not sympathetic towards Microsoft.
So, they finally changed their tactics, dropping prices dramatically. That's why they're finally making some headway in China. Oh, and some very active government lobbying seems to have played a big part as well. Microsoft seems to be best buddies with the Chinese government now, making deals with them, selling them software in huge quantities ...
Gotta love free enterprise. Corporations don't care where the money comes from; this is proved time and again by Western corporations sucking up to the Chinese government.
I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
...In other news, China and Bill Gates have agreed on a China-oriented version of the popular Windows operating system -- it will be called 'Microsoft Tiananmen'. They've already agreed on the slogan. 'Microsoft Tiananmen' New and Improved -- now with fewer human rights!
However, there are downsides. Life in China by all account is not a lot of fun for most people. Access to things we take for granted is limited to the usual third world elite. It is not free trade is your problem, but the lack of democracy and knowledge about the rest of the world that China's people suffer from, and, I think, the acquiescence of the US population in their country being run by large businesses with monopolistic practices. If you had free trade, you would be able to buy those $3 Windows copies and the cheap medicines in the US. But you don't.
The difference between Adam Smith and Marx is basically that Smith lived in a world of tiny companies and thought capitalism was benign, while Marx lived in a world of growing capitalist monopolies and saw that it was not. What is happening in China is a repeat of the British industrial revolution - poor workers making an elite rich while being kept in a state of ignorance. Just as in the UK, some of those workers are more highly paid (the ones in the cities). How long before they start to get difficult? I really think that over the next thirty years we will find out whether in fact it was Smith or Marx who was right (my money is on Marx, as an economist you understand) and the laboratory will be China.
Pining for the fjords
HP has a Linux-based Quickplay OS for some of their laptops, on a seperate partition, that it can boot for quick access to multimedia functions. This is a legal OS. I belive Toshiba has a similar feature. These would be fine or Desktops as well. Major OEM's that don't want to preinstall Windows should provide a Linux version that can offer basic functions. Or a full implementation, the solution I would prefer.
When Chinese users want to install Windows, or another OS, they could choose to leave this on it's own partition and setup grub to dual-boot. There could also be a self-destruct button that wipes the partitions and formats the drive. Everyone (except MS) should love this as a government's job shouldn't be to force OEM's to help a company sell software. (think RIAA.)
Even as a Linux user I can sympathize with MS and their frustration, but their reaction does not help the cause of capitalism or Democracy in that region. This is very short-sighted and wrong.
Thanks to China, Red Flag Linux is a popular Linux Distro. Even if you're a Mac or Windows user you should sympathize with Linux users' frustratioins with having to receive preinstalled, paid for OSes that they do not want. In China or the US or any region at all.
when I was in China I frequently had market sellers attempting to sell me dodgy DVDs and CDs for 2 or 3 Yuan.
But I don't think they had windows on them...... yikes!
Seriously though, even in the large multinational Shenzhen office I was in the IT support guy installed windows of a shiny gold disc - it was just how things were done there. The serial number was written on the top in black pen. I guess product activation and WGA make it more difficult for this to work so they crawl back to the conference table and talk.
BTW. Many of the top executives from another multinational always impressed me by running Yellow Dog on a USB stick - I'm not even sure their laptops even had software on - but the USB sticks were on their key rings. I always thought that was a neat security idea. I have never seen that done anywhere else.
No, I guess it's not clear how that works. I insist that Linux is as easyto use as any OS, but it is hard to install. II can't help laughing at the concept of someone using Linux(which is NEVER a boot loader, it's a kernel) to install grub? lilo? so that they can load Windows. Poor stupid, stupid person.
The shame is that you left out the Mac flames.
I would have gone for the Linux being booted and running the Windows version of VMWare to run OSX.
But then I am too smart and funny to troll. But you guys always suck me in.
Anyone that can't immediately see how dumb this parent is should refrain from modding this thread.
I realize most people who buy *naked* computers end up installing illegal software-- but microsoft makes it sound illegal.
Maybe Microsoft only requires $5 to consider a machine "legal" in China, while it requires $150 for legality in the U.S.
Ok, I get that /. readers hate Microsoft, but this is really a story about doing business in China more than how evil Microsoft is. The article really stresses how much Microsoft was hated when they tried the strong-arm tactics of selling (even more than in America) until they invested heavily in the country and opened a research center to change their image.
That really applies to all businesses trying to do business in China - particularly sales. It's actually quite an interesting story of business culture clashes and a good lesson on how standard US and EU business practices don't really work well in China.
Please don't compare installing Linux on a naked PC to writing viruses. It's not even an analogy, just flamebait.
As the story states, Microsoft is selling XP/Office bundles for $3 in emerging markets, in what is a clearly a defensive strategy to keep Linux from gaining a foothold in those markets.
This is going to be a popular product -- Microsoft products at Open Source prices -- however, it certainly can't be a sustainable strategy for Microsoft. Microsoft is using its enormous profits in other areas to essentially give Windows and Office for free to the third world. It won't be long before these $3 windows bundles, with valid product keys, start showing up on torrents and other file download sites.
What will be Microsoft's strategy when its $3 windows bundles start eating into its core business of selling over-priced software in developed countries?
If they look the other way too often, then govs. start to notice. In particular, MS is cracking down hard in the USA (via their bs group). How many politicians here can defend MS's practice, if we can all point to china and say that they are getting away with this?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
MS is the one who created this piracy is ok approach. They used it in the 80's to kill their competition. They use it now to break into markets (and subsidize via their windows sales). Finally, the reason why ppl are openly stealing it, is because they consider it overpriced for the value. If MS would price it correctly, or start offering good service for the money that they charge (i.e. the linux model), they would get more sales.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Because, in this article, it appears that the phrase "legal software" actually means "Microsoft software."
"I might have made a tactical error in not going to a physician for 20 years." -- Warren Zevon
...has a lot of accidents.
If there's anyone I hate more than stupid people, it's intellectuals.
If I am a computer nudist, can't I just buy a 'barebones' PC? Can't I sell 'Barebones' PCs that are missing input devices or RAM? A lot of people will be willing to put in their own stick of RAM if they can save $$ on MS OSes P.S. $$ must be a worth saving. If not, I wouldn't be bothered by dirt cheap MS software. I'll just buy laptops from Chinese retailers and get it shipped here (or is that not allowed? eBay seems to allow it though) Cheers!
Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
Fortune is like Penthouse for pointy haired bosses.
Not that the Chinese tech market isn't interesting, but Fortune should not be veiwed as a news publication...
You said:"The difference between Adam Smith and Marx is basically that Smith lived in a world of tiny companies and thought capitalism was benign, while Marx lived in a world of growing capitalist monopolies and saw that it was not. What is happening in China is a repeat of the British industrial revolution - poor workers making an elite rich while being kept in a state of ignorance. Just as in the UK, some of those workers are more highly paid (the ones in the cities). How long before they start to get difficult? I really think that over the next thirty years we will find out whether in fact it was Smith or Marx who was right (my money is on Marx, as an economist you understand) and the laboratory will be China." - It's exactly what they had in mind, by flying pig
The Wealth of Nations was published in 1776, and the U.S., Great Britain and all of Europe were the test beds. Yes, capitalism created the "super rich", which existed anyways, and it also raised the standard of living even for the poorest. The worst standard of living in the united is still higher than the average in the Soviet Union. We seem to forget that a huge experiment in socialism was conducted and it failed. If you read the article, and do some research on China, you will see that its leaders even believe that a market economy is better. They are just approaching it differently than us, but their goal is the same. Wesern Civilization changed from feudalism to capitalism over five hundred years with the slow rise of individual property rights, freedom of travel, and the relinquishment of government monopolies. They are trying to do it in a hundred years.
"Where have all the good people gone?" - Jack Johnson
...and I have yet to see a distro that is not boneheadedly retarded about CJK encodings.
The fact is, China is not a priority for open source developers, while it is a priority for Microsoft.
Markets in China are supremely important to all US business interests. The foundation of capitalism is businesses must grow. As barriers to growth pop up both here and in other markets, new opportunities must be found. There are 1 billion people in China. So it's not just Microsoft who sees the importance of markets in China. It's every company that ever had a widget to sell. It has become a great concern to the US government, too. Business interests and growing markets drives US policy these days, like it or not (see Iraqi petroleum). These concerns trump everything else. 50 years ago there would have been a hue and cry over such massive trade deals with Communists *gasp*. You don't hear that today.
China could change its form of government tomorrow to a representative democracy with free elections at all levels in every area, but if they tried to close down their borders with respect to trade the US would find a reason to go to war with them. The way it stands today that's not about to happen.
Of course Marx wasn't right about everything and, as I made I thought clear, I wasn't talking about his political philosophy. Marx perceived that the effect of unrestricted capitalism was that ultimately all wealth would end up in the hands of a very few rich people. And that is incorrect how? He never suggested that the economy was static; Marx wasn't stupid.
It never fails to amaze Europeans that many Americans confuse consumer goods with wealth. Many American workers have few vacations and work long hours. They find it hard to save. They may have relatively large houses and cars, but in many ways they are still bonded workers. They cannot just leave their jobs and survive without very unpleasant consequences. To an Athenian or a Roman citizen, (or to an obnoxious Brit with no mortgage and money in the bank) that's slavery. And that's without considering the inner city subclass and the illegal migrants. In the US, a form of slavery is still very much in fashion, but people are in denial about it. Unfortunately we have allowed it to be exported to this country, with bonded laborers, many Chinese or Eastern Europeans, being controlled by gangs and the Government making sympathetic noises and doing precisely nothing.
Adam Smith believed that everybody would benefit from the invisible hand of the market - well, except a load of foreigners and poor people who did not count. Marx believed that the rich and greedy would, in the end, impoverish everybody else relatively speaking. Look at the US. Look at the reduction in status and opportunity for most of the middle classes, compared with the 50s and 60s.
In the late 50s my father bought his first house on one and a half times his salary. That house now costs more than ten times the average UK middle class salary. In those days there were few gadgets, but look at those gadgets now. They are basically small and cheap ways of delivering cheap content at high prices; iPods, mobile phones.
You're being screwed by monopolists while being told you're in a free market. And if you don't like Marx, read two prophetic books by three great US science fiction writers: The Space Merchants, by Pohl & Kornbluth, and Player Piano, by Kurt Vonnegut.
Pining for the fjords
But this is entirely due to some very dubious licensing practices which say that an instance of software is only licensed to be used on a single PC, ever, even if that PC is no longer used.
It used to be perfectly okay for me to take the software, OS and all, from an old PC, and install it on my new one. I could even install it on two or three working PC's at a time as long as I (the licensed user) was only ever using it in a single place. Now software companies want to tell me that this is illegal.
Is it just me, or does it look like Microsoft is doing a good deed here and undermining the Chinese government? It looks like Microsoft is infecting the Chinese goverment with Windows making it easier to hack them and steal information! :) I say yay!
I don't care which side of the copyright/patent/intellectual-property fence you're on, please Please PLEASE stop saying "rampant piracy".
Gagh.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
So is it a brightly-lit intersection?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
On a recent trip to China, I could not help but notice the number of people using Kubuntu. It was everywhere, far more prevalent than all the linux distros that I see here in Australia.
.
...is a null set
- Old jungle saying.
I do think its unfair that they get a "cost of living adjustment" for software and medicine, yet we have to compete for techie jobs on our own cost of living. They get the best of both worlds.
I think you're mixed up here. If it were free trade then there won't be a law requiring an OS to be installed. Laws like this are an interference in a freemarket. Not only that but a freemarket would also allow someone to go to China and buy a warehouse full of disks then ship them back to the US and sell them here, thus giving MS a big incentive to drop the prices here. Better yet, under a true freemarket, nobody would legally be stopped from simply copying MS software and selling it. Adam Smith, the Father of Capitalism, was against copyrights and patents. They are an interference in a free market.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I really think that over the next thirty years we will find out whether in fact it was Smith or Marx who was right
Marxism already failed. The Soviet Union is no more, China is partially capitalistic, and even in Cuba there are private businesses. North Korea can't even be called Marxist, it's a dictatorship run by Kim Il Jung, and has people starving to death in the streets. The ones not being executed.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Heh, mainstreamer. Actually, it's Mises who's right about pretty much everything.
Mises and Hayek.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Look at the US. Look at the reduction in status and opportunity for most of the middle classes, compared with the 50s and 60s.
In the late 50s my father bought his first house on one and a half times his salary.
Opportunity is still there to be had in the USA for many people. My sisters and I come from the low income class. My older sister is a nurse and now is part of the middle class. My younger sister is a CPA and along with friends runs her own accounting business. She also owns a few rental properties. Though I'm not sure I think she's high income now. They both got that way via hard work and it's possible for most people to do the same if they work hard.
Now, I said "most people", it doesn't work out for everyone one matter how hard they work. Like me, like my sisters I went to college too, majoring in Computer Engineering. We were the first generation in our family to go to college. However while I was attending college I suffered a serious accident. One day after my classes I was riding my bike when a moving van hit me. I survived a Traumatic Brain Injury, TBI, which ended my dream of being a Computer Engineer. If it weren't the accident I'd be one now.
In those days there were few gadgets, but look at those gadgets now. They are basically small and cheap ways of delivering cheap content at high prices; iPods, mobile phones.
That's not the fault of capitalism, it is totally caused by consumerism.
FalconShould there be a Law?
convinced the government to enact monopolistic laws like requiring "legal" (ie Microsoft) software to be loaded onto each new machine produced.
Now I've rtfa more than once and I didn't read anywhere in it where it said the required software had to be from MS. I don't like MS but I don't think the way to fight it is by spreading stuff that's not true. If you have a link that says the law requires MS software can you provide?
FalconShould there be a Law?
The idea is that the cost is in the development, not the distribution.
That is true, but my question is, how can this succeed in the long term?
At some point in the future, computer users in the developing world will far outnumber computer users in developed nations. Eventually, the majority of MS's user base will be running cut-rate versions of Windows. Whether MS sells them for $3, $10, or $20, they will still be far below the normal retail price in the US.
Ah, it's like they'll get users addicted to Windows and Office then when they are making more money but can't afford to switch software MS will jack up the prices. Sell low so you can wipe out your competition or make too expensive to change then raise prices.
As for the long term, they don't care. Like all too many corporations today it all about this quarter, year, and the next one or two. "Long term" is maybe, just maybe 5 years.
FalconShould there be a Law?
You know, what I don't understand. Is in a country like China. Where they don't seem to care much about other countries IP.
China wants to be a member of the WTO and one requirement of the WTO is IP enforcement. If China didn't enforce other countries' IP it couldn't be admitted to the WTO.
FalconShould there be a Law?
If we could only get the manufacturers to support thier hardware under linux as well as windows we could have a serious shot at getting linux on a lot more desktops.
Yea, I've been looking for a dl dvd drive for my linux box but I haven't been able to find one I know will work. And I don't have the knowledge or expertize to work to get one working right. I've searched my distro's website as well as Linux Questions and Google but haven't been able to find any step by step instructions. Same with books.
FalconShould there be a Law?