Slashdot Mirror
A Million PS3s Sold in Japan
Reuters is reporting that the PlayStation 3 has reached 1 million units sold in Japan. The article notes that the eight months the console took to reach this mark is roughly four times slower than it took the Wii. Of course, the 360 has only managed to eek out 420,705 units sold in a much longer timespan. To put things in perspective, an aging news report suggests that the PlayStation 2 sold 1 million units the first weekend it was released in Japan. Even the Wii didn't hit that, though that may have been an issue of supply rather than demand. Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did, or is the market just a different place than it was 7 years ago?
The last numbers reported on Japanese hardware sales: July 2nd - 8th
That would mean in the past 10 days, at least 24,129 PS3s were sold. That is approximately 16,890 PS3s last week, and 7,239 so far this week.
For comparison, the Wii was at 2,949,774 units sold the week before last. Given that they've been consistantly selled 70k+ per week, the Wii probably surpassed 3 million consoles last week. The Xbox 360 has yet to break 400k units.
Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
This is all entirely new and interesting information. I'm sure we will have a lively and enlightening discussion where multiple new and logically sound theories based on solid economic and sociological data will be presented.
Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did, or is the market just a different place than it was 7 years ago?
Playstation 2 launch price: ¥39,800
Playstation 3 launch price: ¥49,980 (basic), ¥59,980 (premium)
That might have had something to do with it.
If this isn't a setup for a flame war, I don't know what is.
Maybe the reason is that people only have one job? Those slackers...
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Sony typically reports the number of units shipped to retailers, not actually sold through to consumers. If there as many PS3s stacked in Best Buys in Japan as here, it may be a few more weeks (or possibly months) before a million PS3s are actually hooked up to Japanese TVs in people's homes.
After all this time, it is surprising to me that the PS3 sales are only a little more than double the 360 sales. Yes, the 360 had a jump on the market but it is still a lot closer than I would have expected. People say that M$ should give up on that market -- maybe Sony should think along the same lines?
The PS2 worked on your old TV. The PS3 does too, but you might as well buy a PS2 if you're running on old TV -- or wait on consoles altogether and save your money for a new TV.
If there were as many HDTVs now as there were SDTVs when the PS2 was released, the PS3 would probably have sold as well as the PS2.
Maybe nerds want to see Sony die for their stupid remarks, and oh, I think I have something here... a rootkit!
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Because the PS3 is made by Sony, and the division in control of it has demonstrated extreme arrogance. The Slashdot Groupthink is strongly against arrogance, which is why it is so slanted against Microsoft, Sony, IBM at time, Sun at times, Apple at times (although the Apple fanbase here lessens the effect), and even Nintendo in the past. The Slashdot Groupthink loves the Wii because Nintendo is actually putting its money on what the Slashdot Groupthink has been saying for years (gameplay is more important than graphics, games should be fun, etc.). They care about units sold because publishers and developers care about units sold, and they want to see more games for their fun system and for Sony to eat its hubris.
Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
We are at war with Sony. We have always been at war with Sony. 2+2=5.
You care how many sales a given system has because it determines what games get made for it. It also determines the quality of the games you get. On multi-console games, generally the system with the highest userbase gets the best development team on it.
Because everyone wants to see their brand win. Ostensibly it is because whichever one sells more will be the one to get the games, saving you money since you know which one to buy. In reality, it's just a way to stoke the fanboy ego.
Look at Ford vs. Chevy, etc... Very easy to understand why people care about this sort of thing.
For what it can do, the PS3 is not at all too expensive for me -- I'll qualify that I'm an American, I know that Europeans are getting a raw deal -- but there's a simple reason I still don't have one: no games. Seriously, take a look at ebGames, and virtually every title is scheduled for the end of the year or next year. And the titles that are out frankly don't do much for me.
Perhaps I'll get one in 2008, but by then I bet I can pick up newer-generation XBox360 and a ton of used games for it. Viva Pinata for the GF, Overlord for myself... Both exclusives, too. Well, if I'm in the mood for a Blu-Ray player perhaps, but I bet there will be much cheaper ones out by then.
Talk about going out with a shrug.
Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
I walked in on a conversation with two Japanese exchange students who were talking with our very own household Sony fanboy about how far away the great games were. This at first seemed pretty odd to me because games like Assassins Creed and GTA IV aren't too far out and they look fairly awesome to me; but apparently they don't hold much appeal to these Japanese guys in particular. Of course these are just two guys, but if that's the trend in Japan then it's frankly not a big surprise and perhaps not due to change anytime soon.
Of course the PS2 didn't launch with a great line-up either, but I think that is where the price plays into the picture. It's one thing to expect your loyal fans to buy a console where the really awesome games are months/years out when it's cheap and also functions as a dvd player; it was a risk that but it sure worked out for Sony in the end. Maybe this time they pushed it too far, with the console being expensive, the great games being even further out and perhaps high definition formats aren't as big as expected just yet?
I don't know about in Japan, but in the US, it's not just more expensive, it's twice as (or 100% more) expensive as the PS and PS2 were at launch (PS: $299; PS2: $299; PS3: $599).
By comparison, the Wii launched for 25% more than the Game Cube, which itself launched at the same exact price as all of Nintendo's previous console systems (NES, SNES, N64, GC: $199; Wii: $249). The XBox 360 launched for 33% more than the XBox (XBox: $299; XBox 360: $399).
Seriously, though, the PS3 launched for $200 more than the already overpriced console that had been out for a year. That's seriously dumb.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
Wii 3M x $250 = $750M PS3 1M x $600 = $600M 360 0.5M x $400 = $200M we better do not consider earnings! hehe
I own Nintendo stock, it matters to me.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
Actually, it puzzles me even more why people care about such things...
For about a year now Sony have been top of the Slashdot shitlist, displacing Microsoft, the RIAA, and France. This is because of the rootkits they put on music CDs.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
The same thing is happening to sony that happened to nintendo during the N64 generation. Both companies had 2 generations of market dominance (nes.snes, ps1,ps2). Then they got cocky and thought the fan base would overlook obvious flaws, with nintendo it was carts on the N64 and sony its the price tag, lack of innovation in the controller (really now how long is sony going to hang on to the dual shock disgn) and lack of any major exclusive games at launch.
Tom Waits
"Big In Japan"
I got the style but not the grace
I got the clothes but not the face
I got the bread but not the butter
I got the winda but not the shutter
But I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan But heh I'm big in Japan
I got the house but not the deed
I got the horn but not the reed
I got the cards but not the luck
I got the wheel but not the truck
But heh I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan
I got the moon I got the cheese I got the whole damn nation
On its knees I got the rooster I got the crow
I got the ebb I got the flow
I got the powder but not the gun
I got the dog but not the bun
I got the clouds but not the sky
I got the stripes but not the tie
But heh I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan
Heh ho they love the way I do it
Heh ho there's really nothing to it
I got the moon I got the cheese
I got the whole damn nation on their knees
I got the rooster I got the crow
I got the ebb I got the flow
I got the sizzle but not the steak
I got the boat but not the lake
I got the sheets but not the bed
I got the jam but not the bread
But heh I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan
I'm big in Japan, I'm big in Japan
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 is the magic number.
No, there isn't a single specific reason. It's a combination of 599 reasons.
I am continually impressed that Sony (or something, at least) has managed to turn Slashdot against a console which has such an awesome processor for parallel computation, uses open standards and API's from the Khronos Group for almost everything, and officially supports linux - complete with beowulf clustering.
If you'd have told me that a year ago, I'd have said it couldn't be done.
I don't enjoy the realistic simulations/games to fycking depressing ... I am good at FPS.
I have all the PS2 R&C and want another R&C for the PS3 before I upgrade to a 32in WQXGA monitor.
!HAVEFUN!
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Hard to hit a million your first weekend when there is not enough out there.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
The PS2 when it came out was almost half what the PS3 costs, all things else being equal that should equate to more than double the PS3 sales right there, add in the fact that the PS2 was a cheap DVD player when people actually needed a DVD player, add in a whole bunch more sales. There was little to no competition for the PS2 when it was released, add in even more sales. Sony had not released a rootkit or 50 new memory formats for people to balk at.
My guess is the 2 biggest problems for Sony in Japan is #1 the Wii, #2 the high price.
Because the Wii is more fun than the PS3 (IMO), so the better the Wii does, the better the odds that more fun games will come out for it. Simple as that.
--R.J.
Electric-Escape.net
To hell with the rootkits on their CDs. That was a screw-up, but it's not the reason why the PS3 gets such bad press.
The reason the PS3 gets such bad press, here and elsewhere, is that Sony has managed to screw up every way possible whilst pretending that everything is hunky-dory.
If Sony had been less boneheaded, or at least more honest about things, then it wouldn't have received half as much bad publicity. But as it's made one stupid move after another, and compounded that stupidity with an unswerving inability to tell the truth, Sony is simply getting what it deserves.
You reap what you sew, and Sony hasn't realised this yet. It still hasn't understood that its strategy is harming the PlayStation brand so much, not just for this generation but perhaps for the next one, too.
Nintendo, on the other hand, hasn't made anywhere close to the multitude of mistakes that its rivals have. It's released an inexpensive system, introduced some innovation, produced some decent games and focused on doing what it's good at. If it's made mistakes they've been minor ones, and they certainly haven't been driving customers away.
Microsoft has made mistakes, but unlike Sony it's at least tried to put right some of its wrongs. Its strategy has been far from perfect, but it had the advantage of being first to the marketplace, so managed to establish a user base that Sony would currently give its eye teeth for.
In terms of technical performance and capabilities, of the three, Nintendo has released the least impressive console, but it's also produced the best marketing strategy by far. And, just as VHS vs. Betamax showed us, you don't always have to be technically superior to win the battle.
Nintendo has produced a competent console and marketed it brilliantly. Sony has produced a more powerful machine but has marketed it terribly.
Any non-casual observer can see that. That is why Sony is getting creamed all over the press, as well as in the market.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
a PS2, I was waiting for the PS3 (I wanted backwards compatibility never having owned the earlier consoles) but was disapointed.
I have $3000 I don't know what to do with but I've decided to hold off on a $400 purchase to go with a $100 purchase (Ps2 Craigslist, 1 wireless controller memory card, 40 games) I just didn't want to subsidize Microsoft and the other consoles haven't consolidated yet (:P).
The PS3 kicks ass for 1 reason, downloadable free content, tonnes of demos and previews. Once you get beyond those and start actually looking at it's game library it gets really grim...
The PS3 won't be as successful as the PS2 it's already over, that's what this article is addressing.
How about every self respecting nerd who has the decency to ensure that their close family/friends have properly functioning computers and had to waste time cleaning up the mess sony made?
Microsoft has much different goals and expectations in Japan than Sony does. While Japan is still a huge video game market, and Microsoft would love to do well there, they realize that it's a very difficult market to enter as a non-Japanese company. As such, sales expectations are quite low. Sony, on the other hand, is a Japanese company and the Japanese market is supposed to be their cash cow. Only holding a 2x lead over Microsoft in Japan is terrible.
Microsoft could give up on the Japanese market now that they've gotten many Japanese developers on their side (Capcom, Konami, SEGA, etc), but I doubt they will in fear of losing those same developers. Sony simply can't give up on the Japanese market, because that would kill them in every other market as well.
The problem with the PS3 is not price. The iPhone costs as much as a PS3 and people are happily spending money on that. I'd argue that the PS3 provides more value for the money. Well, except for one big problem. There are few good games available for the PS3 and virtually no great games. That is why the PS3 isn't selling. I guarantee if the library of games were stronger we'd see far fewer people complaining about price.
"Could somebody please explain to me why the Official Slashdot Groupthink(tm) hates the PS3 and loves the Wii?"
They kept at least half an eye open over the past year.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
"Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did, or is the market just a different place than it was 7 years ago?"
Ummm... PRICE? In 2000, the PS2 released with a price of 39,800 Yen (with an exchange rate of 106.31 Yen to US Dollar), which made it ~$375 US. The 60GB PS3 (the only one with full functionality) launched at a price of 62,800 Yen. So not quite double the launch price, but that is pretty high.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
As far as Sony goes, there's a variety of reasons:
1) Nintendo fanbois
2) Microsoft fanbois
These two groups have slagged the PS3 as an overly expensive piece of junk since it was announced. There hatred for anything that doesn't belong to their chosen company is nothing new.
3) Sony's bad behaviour
Sony's been a bad company recently, the copy protection software that hides itself on your computer is a prime example of a related area that has offended many more people that were actually affected by it. Generally speaking, the people who are still offended by this will use any excuse, whether true or not, to attack Sony to make them pay for offending them. There are other issues, such a Lik-Sang but the copy-protection "root kit" (even though it was produced by a third party) is the one that gets the most tears.
4) The PS3 price
The price of the PS3 is much higher than anticipated, this has angered people many people who intended to buy one, if they get a PS3 then they'll have less money for beer and porn. Therefore, in their minds, Sony is taking their beer and porn, and that's bad.
5) Sony's Executives
Sony's executive are, from all appearances, paid to be professional public assholes. They've tried to make light of the price difference but given that there's already a large group of people pissed off at them, see 1-4, stupid jokes fall flat and the teaming horde of angry people rip everything they say to shreds. Sony's executives are apparently unable to deal in a reasonable professional manner with a public that is not happy with them.
6) Everyone loves to see an arrogant titan fail.
As for the Wii:
1) Nintendo fanbois
2) Microsoft fanbois still view the PS3 as the real threat to the Xbox 360
3) The Wii is exactly the same as everyone other Nintendo console but now it has a new controller. It's the Malibu Stacey with a new hat phenomenom. It's different enough to be "new" but not different enough to be scary.
4) The Wii is doing well. Everyone loves to jump on the bandwagon of the new rising star.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
Hmm, other than Price ...
...
Let's see, only one good release game, tons of time wasted on graphics and close to zilch on game play, being stuck with Blu-Ray which means little if you are one of the two-thirds with 480i or lower TV reception,
Nope, can't think of anything.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Console war news is like sports news for geeks.
Nuf said... I think that's why the PS2 was popular. Now that DVD players are cheap as dirt, nobody cares about the XBox platform or the PS3 in Japan. DVD is way more compelling a switch than Blu-Ray, considering everyone emptied their pockets on the DVD generation. It's going to take quite a few more years yet to inspire people to switch to the high-def formats and equipment.
The Slashdot Groupthink is strongly against arrogance
Is that supposed to be a brain-explodey kind of thing, like saying "I'm lying?"
If I remember, the PS2 launched right smack in the middle of the dot com era as well. There were many a young geek flush with internet dollars willing to drop a couple hundred on a game machine.
What self-respecting nerd actually still calls it a rootkit?
fixed that for you.
On a side note, what Nintendo system has NOT had a new controller?
I love the "more fun" claim being brought up in any conversation regarding consoles. As near as I can tell, "more fun" really means "more nostalgic" or more concretely "more franchises that I remember liking as a kid" or even more concretely "more franchises that I remember being popular as a kid".
Yes and no. I don't think the Slashdot Groupthink evaluates itself, so the issue never really comes up. I think you are correct when participants of the Groupthink evalute it though, as is seen by my modding (currently I see my view as 1 Informative, with 50% informative, 30% Overrated, and 20% Troll, so it appears to be imploding rather than exploding, but still caught in a zero-sum game).
Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
I don't know about in Japan, but in the US, it's not just more expensive, it's twice as (or 100% more) expensive as the PS and PS2 were at launch (PS: $299; PS2: $299; PS3: $599).
By comparison, the Wii launched for 25% more than the Game Cube, which itself launched at the same exact price as all of Nintendo's previous console systems (NES, SNES, N64, GC: $199; Wii: $249). The XBox 360 launched for 33% more than the XBox (XBox: $299; XBox 360: $399).
Seriously, though, the PS3 launched for $200 more than the already overpriced console that had been out for a year. That's seriously dumb.
The other bit you may have to face is the fact the US dollar has fallen against all other currencies in that time as well. For me my PS2 was $449 + tax + mem card when I got it and my PS3 was $649 I think. It was around that ball park but I forget the exact digits. Mem car wasn't needed. Adjusting for inflations leaves a pretty slim price difference. What happened to Sony was it was releasing another expensive machine to two major markets whose currency had dipped and economies weren't as hot. They didn't follow the economic indicators and release a cheaper machine earlier like Nintendo did.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
1. The PS3's price is too high for some people, mind you, I have a PS3 and didn't mind paying the price (mind you, I didn't mind paying a mere few hundred bucks for the PS3, but others do). 2. When the PS2 shipped, it was the cheapest DVD player out there; if you look at the initial statistics on what people were playing on their PS2, the top discs played were DVDs. To be honest, people aren't nearly as excited about Blu-ray and HD-DVD as they were about DVDs (with good reasons).
Ummm... PRICE? In 2000, the PS2 released with a price of 39,800 Yen (with an exchange rate of 106.31 Yen to US Dollar), which made it ~$375 US. The 60GB PS3 (the only one with full functionality) launched at a price of 62,800 Yen. So not quite double the launch price, but that is pretty high.
Both currencies have dipped int he last several years so it's a bit of an unfair comparison. For the cash of value of a ps2 you would have spent on other stuff in 2000 you can get slightly more (20-30%) for the value of a PS3 today. Thats sort of subjective too since a lot of goods find a certain price point and never move despite increase in costs. For Canadians we didn't see such a ludicrious price increase because.. well our dollar didn't nose dive like the Americans did.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Because the Wii is more fun than the PS3 (IMO), so the better the Wii does, the better the odds that more fun games will come out for it. Simple as that.
Fun is subjective. Wario ware + wii sports + rayman all RPGS ever made for any system. However I have a thousand dollar game library and multiple systems she has a wii, wii sports a game cube and mario party 6. Time will tell which market is more profitable. I hope to Odin it's US because I can't stand wario ware.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Five hundred and ninety-nine U.S. dollars
Five hundred and ninety-nine U.S. dollars
Five hundred and ninety-nine U.S. dollars
And not even three interesting games you can't play on other platforms.
The most expensive box of giant enemy crabs ever created.
I was about to say 13256278887989457651018865901401704640, but it appears this number is private property.
Actually, you do not have to do that, but really, you want to do it.
You can play that way. But it makes you a fucking toolbox.
While the ps2 had 1,000,000 units it's first weekend the ps3 had a few thousand and it was shared with oversea's buyers and the homeless. In addition to that online auctioneers. The result, actual japanese gamers and american gamers didn't really get their hands on it to spread any hype. Everything seems to have been botched.
THe "worldwide launch aka u.s./japan" just meant retarded shortages at launch since they didn't make enough.
The ridiculous price.
The lack of good games at launch to justify the price.
Horrible marketing (zomg scary baby, oh ps3, wtf mate).
The nintendo wii's massive hype and the 360 which has partly established itself.
With so many things gone wrong the only way to resuscitate this is a major price drop again + hot games + renewed marketing blitz. Somehow i doubt all three of these will happen simultaneously this year.
Hmmm... Pie...
Here you go. Better start saving your pennies...
I haven't computed the numbers, but I find it difficult to believe that inflation has caused the price to DOUBLE in seven years. The value of the dollar isn't so hot, but Japan isn't the booming economic paradise it once was either. I agree with the rest of your statements.
What has doubled in the US in the last seven years is gas prices. In 2000, I paid $1.50/gal. Today it is over $3/gal. Consumers don't have the $599 for a game console and the $300-$3000 for an HDTV to enjoy it on. The Wii has very limited Hidef capabilities, but it also works great on a SDTV. I can use it on my seven year old POS Maganvox without any problems. Anyone interested in a PS3 is also interested in Blueray or high quality graphics for games.
In my case, the lack of an HDTV is changing my purchasing decisions. I can not get benefit out of an xbox360 or PS3 over my Wii. I can not buy many set top box devices like an Apple TV. I have no interest in buying an HD-DVD or Blueray player. I have basic cable so i'm not "scared" that I may lose television signals.
MidnightBSD: The BSD for Everyone
I haven't computed the numbers, but I find it difficult to believe that inflation has caused the price to DOUBLE in seven years. The value of the dollar isn't so hot, but Japan isn't the booming economic paradise it once was either. I agree with the rest of your statements.
What has doubled in the US in the last seven years is gas prices. In 2000, I paid $1.50/gal. Today it is over $3/gal. Consumers don't have the $599 for a game console and the $300-$3000 for an HDTV to enjoy it on. The Wii has very limited Hidef capabilities, but it also works great on a SDTV. I can use it on my seven year old POS Maganvox without any problems. Anyone interested in a PS3 is also interested in Blueray or high quality graphics for games.
In my case, the lack of an HDTV is changing my purchasing decisions. I can not get benefit out of an xbox360 or PS3 over my Wii. I can not buy many set top box devices like an Apple TV. I have no interest in buying an HD-DVD or Blueray player. I have basic cable so i'm not "scared" that I may lose television signals.
At the very least against the Canadian dollar the US dollar has lost a little under half (40%) from it's peak value in the last decade. Against the euro and pound it's lost about 30% from it's peak. The yen followed similar patterns although I don't think the magnitude is as great. Majority of the non chinese, non home grown products tend to be about 40% more then what they were in 2000. The chinese have pegged their currency with yours to encourage trade.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Somebody needs to flip the price on its back and hit it for massive damage. I think whacking 200 HP off of it might make it worthwhile to buy... sometime... pending a game I actually want to play on it. As it is, I can get a new Wii game and have great fun for a month without blowing half of my discretionary income for the month on it.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
Dang, I didn't know that, but until I get my new R&C game in the fall "!HAVEFUN!" is very eloquent (I think?).
...) FPS games put me in a foul mood for hours. I seek the more entertaining artistic/comical (less dark) FPS/Adven games. I have never seen apocalypse now, full metal jacket ... to much to think about. The sports (Madden who?) and driving (Nascar) stuff doers nothing for me. I like to get lost, slap-stick whack a few things, and chuckle often when I am gaming. Online, If I respawn to often I look for some other place, my EHC and reflexes are not up to juvenile speed anymore [DANG!].
at +55yo, I don't know why I (for sure) like the goofy R&C. I played all the DukeNukem, Wolfenstein, and DOOM on PC (well the last Wolf* was on PS2), but now the more realistic (DOOM, HalfLife,
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
It's hard to not come up when even Sony claims the Wii is more fun.
Dear 31!7!57,
.... I have been looking out for the PS3 R&C for far to long. I was beginning to wonder (@+55yo) if I would be dead before the next release. I am comforted to know that I only need to survive until winter (I'll need a little playtime). Then again ... if the new R&C is really good ... it may give me a good reason for trying to survive for another decrepit year. I know, I should get a life, but I did not know who William Shatner was until I saw "Boston Legal" on TV this past year (think about it ...?).
You are so 5W337 for giving me that link
!HAVEFUN!
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?