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Houston, We Have a Drinking Problem
Pcol writes "Aviation Week reports that astronauts were allowed to fly on at least two occasions after flight surgeons and other astronauts warned they were so intoxicated that they posed a flight-safety risk. A review panel, convened in the wake of the Lisa Nowak arrest to review astronaut medical and psychological screening, also reported "heavy use of alcohol" by astronauts before launch, within the standard 12-hour "bottle to throttle" rule applied to NASA flight crew members. Dr. Jonathan Clark, a former NASA flight surgeon, says it's a tradition for crew members to gather for a barbecue on the eve of a shuttle launch, and these gatherings sometimes include alcohol and a toast but that the greater problem is that preparation before a flight can leave astronauts sleep-deprived and overworked. Meanwhile at Frenchie's Italian Restaurant, a popular astronaut hangout in Houston, owner Frankie Camera disputed the reports: "The Mercury astronauts may have been a little more wild (than later ones) but I did banquets for them and never really saw any of them drink so much they were out of control or drunk.""
But on the moon, blood alcohol is one-third of what is on Earth.
My impression is that the Shuttle either gets to orbit on auto-pilot, entirely computer controlled, or it explodes. It's not like anyone is "steering" the thing manually, or pushing buttons in carefully timed sequences.
Now landing requires a bit of skill, but unless they have been nipping at the massive stash of Russian Vodka on the space station, they will have sobered up by landing time.
"You think I'm going up in that thing sober?"
I really expected more from our astronauts. These guys were top of their classes their entire lives, why would they choose to drink right before the launch? Kinda seems like the worst time-- unless they're expecting things to go badly i guess, but i would rather be alert in ready in that situation.
What's next at NASA, a crazy love triangle? Oh wait ...
You never know if you'll come out of it alive. Party on. Heh, in marriage you don't want to come out of it alive..."Till death do us part"?
What?
Paris Hilton and Nicohol Richie could pass a flight medical test? What's next Keith Richards passing a flight readness test?
FTA: "A panel member said Wednesday the report was still in draft form..."
Me, I'd prefer the bottled version...
Of course, I'd have to read it quickly, because of the 12 hour "throttle the bottle" rule. Dang - got that the wrong way around again!
I am not a manual I am a human being! - The distress call of the TechSupport Badger
... human.
It does not matter if you are an illegal alien residing in the US, a lawyer, a carpenter, a musician, a doctor, a nuclear reactor operator, a judge, a member of clergy, a CEO at a super major company, a richest man or second richest man, the ruler of a country...etc...
we are all capable of being stupid, dishonest and deadly. Usually its a choice!
Harsh reality. Couldn't they send half the crew up passed-out and they wouldn't know what hit them in case of an explosion? Or are they _all_ doing crucial pre-flight check-offs?
But you have to figure a case of the twirlies in space will be a future CIA "harsh interrogation" technique.
Ever fly the shuttle... ON WEED??
If I were in charge they would get punished hard. As in torture. yeah, that's right, torture. First I'd give them poison. Some kind that would give them a splitting headache, as if their brain is too big for their skulls. Then I'd surround them with some ear-splitting noise, not unlike the sound of rockets launching. Finally I'd give them some nausea inducing experience. Like how when you're on a plane and the altitude drops suddenly making you "weightless" for a second. But I'd make it last several days.
Yeah, that'd learn 'em not to get drunk before a shuttle mission.
Oh wait.
Free the Quark 3 from asymptotic confinement! Bring your charm! Don't get down! All colours and flavours welcome!
The reason they can't fly the shuttle drunk is because they didn't learn to fly the shuttle drunk. I say get them plastered and put them in the simulator.
Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
Maybe it's worth waiting to see if this is actually a problem before we start calling it that? Just a thought
BlameRussia
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
I thought they launch from Florida. What does it matter what some restaurant owner in Houston says about how much astronauts drink while off-duty? Or do they travel from Houston to then cape less than 12 hours before launch?
I highly doubt that the crew members responsible for controlling the shuttle were plastered. If they were, then that's a problem.
As for the rest of them, so what? Given NASA's history, I'd need to get a little drunk to get the nerve to board the shuttle.
This could have been worse. It could have been a lot worse.
If those astronauts were drinking Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters, the shit really would have hit the fan.
It's okay, man. If there's one thing I know, it's how to drive when I'm stoned. It's like, you know your perspective's fucked, so you just gotta let your hands work the controls as if you're straight.
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
I don't know exactly how to phrase this, but...
It seems to me that so far it's been NASA's completely sober management decisions that have killed astronauts and lost shuttle equipment.
I'll start panicing about the astronauts having a few when they actually start affecting things. Makes me wonder just what kind of actually scary info is coming down the pipe from NASA, that they have to whip everyone into a frenzy with a story about OMG DRUNK ASTRONAUTS!!1
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
1. 2 Solid state rockets at 3,300,000 Lbs of thrust each.
2. Odds of dying on a shuttle mission are about 1:100
3. The shuttles are at or over 20 years old.
4. 2.5 million individual parts on a space shuttle.
5. Knowledge that the shuttle was made by the lowest bidders.
6. You're on it.
Who the hell wouldn't need a drink to get through the work day in those conditions!
load "$",8,1
So, are we going to see extradition papers come in so they can face DUI charges in every country they flew over?
Well, the reliability of the shuttles are only marginally better than the Japanese flying bombs of WWII, so I don't blame them...
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
All I can say is, FUD of the highest order. No astronaut in his/her right mind (Nowak notwithstanding) would be drunk on launch day. There are dozens of abort scenarios a Shuttle astronaut has to be ready for if something goes wrong and no astronaut would jeopardize their safety and the safety of their crewmates by being less than 100% ready to go. I also don't believe for a second that any Shuttle commander would let someone fly on their crew if they were inebriated.
NASA bashing has now become a fashionable side profession for some, especially with the emergence of private space flight ventures. Say what you will about NASA management (and there's plenty I'd like to say!) but they do the best they can with what they're given and it's only pressure from the US Government combined with a desire to return to the glory days that pushes them into decisions that can be called questionable. Hubris may play a role, but not as big a role as the constant need to justify their existence to a public that has become blasé about spaceflight.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
It's hard to even imagine such a thing.
Why, it's as hard to imagine as a President's once being a cocaine user, a Tour de France winner using hormones, or a major evangelical pastor having had sex with a male prostitute.
Reading the text of the actual report here the phrase used by the report is "preflight" alcohol use and "flight safety". It's not specific to a shuttle mission.
Keep in mind that astronauts do most of their "flying" in T-38's (two seaters that are often likened to "astronaut taxis"). It's quite possible that the specific incidents revolve around T-38 use. The image of an astronaut strapping into the shuttle after violating alcohol policy (which is much tighter on aircraft than cars) is almost unbelievable. It is not as much of a stretch to image someone who closed down a bar on Cocoa Beach the night before being tossed into the back seat of a T-38 at 8 AM to get them home with a sober pilot up front. Of course, this is still a safety risk (what if you have to eject?) and a violation of policy. There would be fewer people around that would notice as well since now you are talking about a couple of astronauts and maybe some airfield guys instead of the entire world watching.
I'm not saying that was what happened, but probably there has not been enough detail released to make a real judgment on what really went on (other than the local on-scene leadership overruled objections by flight surgeons and other astronauts on safety, which is I believe was the point the report was trying to get to).
Worst...sig...ever!
That's why we need to send more robots and less people in space mission. Opportunity and Spirit are still sober after all these Martian days.
If enithin kan gow rong it whil. (Murfey)
You don't have to be that intoxicated to pose a safety risk. If you can't perform a task flawlessly on cue People have this strange idea that being an astronaut in the space shuttle is the same thing as being an astronaut in the 60's. With the exception of the landing gear lowering, space shuttle flights are entirely automated. There's a lot of "what if" talk bandied about, but the systems are refined enough that the only problems we see are catastrophic and inescapable. We don't have malfunctioning attitude thrusters that have to be countered manually the keep the capsule from spinning out of control (Gemini 8), or wonky abort switches that have to be disabled by reprogramming the LM computer on the fly, while landing on the moon (Apollo 14). Those guys had to be sharp, calm, and well trained. The space shuttle is a freakin' self-driving bus. Just like modern airline pilots aren't all Chuck Yeager in the X-1, likewise modern astronauts aren't Lovell, Swigert, and Haise bringing Apollo 13 back largely under manual control.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Seriously, why on earth do we spend considerably more for manned missions than unmanned, while the unmanned yield so much more truly valuable science? We've *been* beyond our solar system folks. Wake up already.
Also, every thing costs. It is sooo much cheaper to send only sensors, or returnable capsules with our critical zero-G experiments. Why afford the human costs? (and space is a hostile environment).
And Bush's silly pitch to Mars. Why so soon? It'll wait until we get our act together.
I vote robotic sensors, With vibration feedback.
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
To see how blood alcohol affects us in microgravity. They need to know about it because of the Mars/Moon missions. Or do you think they won't take any alcohol in the Mission to Mars or in the moon base?!
There's a lot of talk about this drinking business, but let's take a look here: Anonymous reports about non-specific astronauts. It's not really all that credible. Sounds more like sour grapes from some jealous worker bee.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
There have only been 118 shuttles launched, two haven't returned. So the odds of dying in the shuttle are actually 1 in 59.
It's no wonder these guys wanted a drink before takeoff. But that in no way justifies NASA letting them drink before takeoff. The really troubling part is that to be drunk at take-off, they must have done their drinking in the locked down, pre-flight crew quarters. WTF?
Personally, I'm troubled by the reports that many of our astronauts are very heavy drinkers. I'm no tea totaler, but I don't drink on the job either. These guys and gals are not college kids, most are in their 30's, 40's and 50's. If they still feel the need to go out partying every night, maybe they should find another profession.
There are THOUSANDS of people in line for each of their jobs. Astronauts are supposed to be the best of the best. The culling process is supposed to be brutal. These revelations make NASA's astronaut selection process look a lot like an "old boys network".
Blue collar workers are routinely given drug and alcohol tests. Employees of our Intelligence Agencies are not given clearances if they are found to be heavy drinkers, even off the job. It seems to me that astronauts should be held to at least the standards of truck drivers, and should probably be held to the higher standards of our Intelligence Agency workers.
There are tens of thousands of Americans who would jump at the chance to be an astronaut. Very few would have a problem making it to work sober.
NASA endorsed and approved. What more is there to say about a drug than the fact it has been taken on NASA space missions with no complications. In all seriousness, while inappropriate if it's not the pilot I'm not sure it matters a whole lot because I didn't think they had to do a lot to get into orbit, it's mostly on the pilot if something goes wrong.
"Jimmy, you ever seen a grown astronaut naked?"
Keep in mind that astronauts do most of their "flying" in T-38's (two seaters that are often likened to "astronaut taxis"). It's quite possible that the specific incidents revolve around T-38 use.
Some commentary from aerospace engineer Rand Simberg's Transterrestrial Musings seems to partially confirm this:
I haven't said anything about the "drunk astronauts" story, but I do think that it epitomizes the atrocious state of reporting on space (and any technical subject), in which it becomes sensationalized and drained of reality. Everyone assumes that the two incidents referred to were Shuttle launches, when the word I get is that it was a T-38 and a Soyuz flight. And of course it has become inflated from two (anecdotal) incidents to everyone doing shooters before each Shuttle flight. The real story, as Jim Oberg points out in this interview with a terminally clueless BBC reporter, is the special treatment of astronauts, and the (lack of sufficient) power of the flight surgeons (at least in their minds) to ground them. Of course, this is a tough problem, as we saw in the Nowak case.
There is a natural antipathy between the astronauts and the flight surgeons. From an astronaut's point of view, an encounter with the latter can't have a good outcome. At best, it can be a neutral one. The default is that one's flight readiness is go. A flight surgeon can't improve that--they can only change it for the worse. If one is sick enough to need to get permission to go, it's unlikely to happen, since there are many trained backups, even for a given mission, who are fine. Recall Apollo XIII, when Ken Mattingly had to be replaced by Jack Swigert because he had merely been exposed to German measles, due to concern that he might come down with it during the mission. He ended up not getting them, and while the decision made sense, he had to feel frustrated (though obviously not as much as he would have had the mission been successful).
It's not a new problem, and it's not one likely to go away, but it would help if the media would treat it seriously. Not to mention soberly.
To Steer a MIR you Clearly Need a Beer! (Have comrades got it?)
Slashdot, I am honestly ashamed that none of you has posted this yet!
You mean all of the innovative stuff based on research done by NASA over the years?
NASA might be a big lumbering beast, but without the incredible amount of science they have dumped into our laps the private companies and individuals would not even be near to where they are. And wait, the private companies and individuals have not made it into space.
And theres more. the Stuff we use in our every day lives, that came from NASA.
1.Kidney dialysis machines were developed as a result of a NASA developed chemical process that could remove toxic waste from used dialysis fluid.
2. Cat Scanner. Blame NASA for finding your tumor.
As a matter of fact, you might be kind of too young to remember Tang And Teflon.
The below link will show you all of the research that has filtered back into our lives. And we owe it all to NASA
http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/at_home.html
You sir, are a DOUCHEBAG.
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
You don't think you might want a good, stiff, bourbon before launching on the shuttle?
expandfairuse.org
Those six are all the more reason to avoid adding a number seven.
Just because they take manual control, doesn't mean they have to. I worked on the shuttle GN&C software. Software for landing the shuttle already existed before i joined that team --- except lowering the landing gear --- years and years ago. It just has never been fully tested, but it was tested down to 125 feet. Here's a few links: http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=10518 and here http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/release/1992/1- 92.htm
Heck, I wrote code that makes all the landings soft and almost perfect since around 1992. I don't recall when it flew the first time. There's usually a 1 or more delay from when code is finished and it makes a first flight. Why was that needed? The astronauts were blowing tires on landing, especially with payloads, so software was designed to prevent that.
Astronauts drinking? You bet. They get lots of practice and everyone I've met knew when to stop and knew their limits. I can imagine they might get drunk only among close friends and family. They know they are being watched, always.
As an air traffic controller and pilot who has spent many years interacting with both, I can assure you that the role alcohol plays a big role in many aviation circles. No, I didn't say that every scopedope, swivelhead, and jet jock drink before, during or after. But alcohol is often a major part of the social fabric whenever these types congregate.
We used to work the NASA T38s from Houston when they would come up for approach practice in East Texas. Every pilot/astronaut we worked was the consummate professional, and I can never recall ever having to repeat a control instruction. Ever. I seriously doubt any of these pilots were impaired, and I seriously doubt any shuttles have been flown or staffed by drunks.
However, I have no doubts about the quantity of alcohol that was served at pre-takeoff festivities...
NASA only awards infrequent flier miles.
paintball
We at MADA, Mother's Against Drunk Astronauts, find this horribly disturbing. It's just reckless. E.T. could be flying along on his bike, and POW!, another senseless, avoidable death. Won't someone think of the children^Waliens?
Actually neither of the examples you gave originated with NASA. They may have improved them but that is all. NASA did a lot otherwise, especially with regards to sensor technology. They also did a lot for open source software as in common with other govt facilities like Fermilab and LBL, a lot of the software was opens-sourced even before the GPL was invented.
See my journal, I write things there
I bet you're also the kind of guy who is incapable of believing anything negative about the politicians he voted for.
NASA Installs Breathalyzers On Space Shuttles
This should reduce the problem to flying while drunk. Eliminating the in-flight drink might help too.
I'd rather vote for Bender.
It's from Channel 4 News, made by ITN.
Also, while the recorded part made up the "Shuttle" bit, James Oberg didn't exactly come over clearly when asked the direct question "well what is the story then?".
Perhaps if NASA had more understanding of how the news media would react to a report like this we wouldn't have this "story"?