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Forensic Analysis Reveals Al-Qaeda's Image Doctoring

WerewolfOfVulcan writes "Wired reports that researcher Neal Krawetz revealed some very interesting things about the Al-Qaeda images broadcast in the mass media. Analysis shows that they're heavily manipulated, a discussion meant to illustrate a new technique that can spot forgery in digital media. 'Krawetz was ... able to determine that the writing on the banner behind al-Zawahiri's head was added to the image afterward. In the second picture above showing the results of the error level analysis, the light clusters on the image indicate areas of the image that were added or changed. The subtitles and logos in the upper right and lower left corners ... were all added at the same time, while the banner writing was added at a different time, likely around the same time that al-Zawahiri was added, Krawetz says.'"

285 comments

  1. so... by zulater · · Score: 5, Funny

    at least there is someone else as bad as me at Photoshop!

    1. Re:so... by im+just+cannonfodder · · Score: 0, Troll

      yep the cia, nsa, ect were never good at manipulating photo's were they!

      like this famous one of Lee Harvey Oswald holding his weapon of choice to assassinate JFK

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald#Bac kyard_Photos

      watch this great 9/11 documentry showing captured images and information not released to the public, i never understood how a passport could survive the crash in prestine condition but all 4 black boxes were completely destroyed, amazing!

      http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448 192753501

  2. This looks shopped... by ansomatica · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can tell from some of the pixels and having seen quite a few shops in my time.

    --
    -==-
    1. Re:This looks shopped... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      A WINNER IS YOU

    2. Re:This looks shopped... by NekoKrys · · Score: 1

      And an anonymous funny yet cowardly adventurer is YOU !

    3. Re:This looks shopped... by Cctoide · · Score: 1

      I slink away, dejected and defeated. :(

      --
      "Let's face it, it's a good story. Accuracy would kill it."
    4. Re:This looks shopped... by NekoKrys · · Score: 1

      Only one solution : 1) Otter-style wound licking 2) Meat smithing a modified JPEG analyser 3) ??? 4) Profit !

  3. I like the one with Bert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Evil Bert had to be photoshopped OUT of the various Al Quaeda videos 'cause he kept jumping into the frame and mugging for the camera
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_is_Evil

    1. Re:I like the one with Bert by u-bend · · Score: 1

      Evil Bert doesn't mug. He merely flexes his satanic eyebrows and babies inexplicably cry all over the world.

      --
      u-bend
    2. Re:I like the one with Bert by Jugalator · · Score: 1
      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  4. Great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I already hold an FFL (Federal Firearms License), but I don't look forward to applying for an FPL (Federal Photoshop License).

    1. Re:Great by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      Just make one up with Photoshop.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  5. msm by stoolpigeon · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think it has been pretty well documented in the blogging community that many of the images that the main stream media picks up and propogates are heavily altered, faked, or come from completely different events than what they claim to depict. This is not just with al-quaeda, but governments and any group that has an agenda and is media savvy - foreign or domestic.

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    1. Re:msm by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 1

      images that the main stream media picks up and propogates are heavily altered, farked, or come from completely different events
      fixed it for you!

      --
      500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
    2. Re:msm by afidel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly, Photoshop has made it impossible to trust anything you see. Video is still kind of difficult to alter like these photos were, but it's certainly possible for someone with the resources of a government of international organization behind them.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:msm by iknownuttin · · Score: 2, Funny
      This is not just with al-quaeda, but governments and any group that has an agenda and is media savvy - foreign or domestic.

      I always wondered why there wasn't some video showing Bin Laden (and all of the big shots with Al Qaeda) eating bacon while jerking off to Barbie Dolls and getting it up the ass.

      --
      I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    4. Re:msm by samkass · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even before Photoshop, inappropriate use of stock footage or using visual scenes of the wrong event was pretty common and made for more exciting news. I remember in the late 80's reports of a student riot in South Korea... my father was there at the time. There may have been a few disgruntled students there at the time, but his pictures are completely different (no violence or anything.) Turns out the news companies heard about a student protest and just looked for random footage of asian students rioting and put it on the air when talking about the situation.

      Of course, Final Cut Studio and Photoshop make it even easier, but the news has always been more about entertainment than information.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    5. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have cable stations modifying televisons shows, altering signs and adding digital enchancements (changing taxi & store signs and adding Subway sandwiches to a table for example). I'm not even sure they're doing it with the consent of the producers/owners.

    6. Re:msm by truthsearch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But these particular images appear to be doctored to enhance the message or provide a visually appealing background. They're probably doctored by the source. Therefore the doctored versions are what the original creators intended to express. So there's no reason for us to ignore these videos.

      If these were altered in a way that seemed to drastically change the message then it would be a different story.

    7. Re:msm by Applekid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Even over the last 10 years video alterations have been getting more and more sophisticated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAFp4CaeDqU

      While the video is clearly tongue-in-cheek and advertising driven, it's slightly disturbing the novices who cut their teeth on this stuff and evolve their skills in the advertising world could go out and "find" video of just about anything they wanted to engineer in the media. Who would be able to stop them?

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    8. Re:msm by ccandreva · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they are showing video of them in a fancy office, that implies their movement is doing well.

      If in fact they are in a cave somewhere in front of a black sheet, then the message is a big fat lie.

    9. Re:msm by plover · · Score: 4, Interesting
      There are many reasons for doctoring photos. The point of these isn't to "confuse the enemy", but to "boost morale of the troops", by showing their leaders as so successful that they can sit out in the open, in a living room somewhere, and lead a normal life in the face of the insignificant U.S. forces. While in reality, they're cowering in bunkers or caves, or perhaps hiding in Pakistan or Iran.

      Unfortunately, detecting the fakes isn't enough. The CIA could say "Hey, look, these are faked, you're following cowards" but that'd be dismissed simply due to the source. What really needs to happen is these forgery-detection tools need to get in the hands of the "faithful" so they can convince themselves that they're being led by cowardly stooges. (Not that they would, as the leaders would probably dismiss such tools as lies from the Great Satan.)

      --
      John
    10. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, Photoshop has made it impossible to trust anything you see

      How true! In fact, Google confirms that the bridge in Minneapolis is still standing! The bridge disaster is a hoax!

      Oh wait, on further examination, the Google picture is photoshopped...

    11. Re:msm by Jimithing+DMB · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is very common. My dad worked for a power company and one of the local news organizations did a story on pollution. So after my dad talked about their scrubbers and other emissions controls (which he was very instrumental in putting in) the reporter decided that it wasn't sensationalist enough so he pulled a dirty trick. One of their power plants was right next to a steel mill so instead of the reporter doing his monologue with the power plant in the background, he and his camera man simply turned around and put the steel mill right next door in the background then proceeded to open up with "I'm here at .. generating station."

      He didn't technically lie; after all he was on the property of the generating station. But the images didn't reflect the nearly nonexistant exhaust of the powerplant (a little NOx which shows up brown on certain days) but instead reflected the constant fires and smoke billowing out of the steel mill. No photoshop required.

    12. Re:msm by at_slashdot · · Score: 1

      Well, take a look at Stalin's picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo_editing

      --
      "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -- Prof. Dumbledore
    13. Re:msm by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      That's a very good point. I hadn't considered that.

    14. Re:msm by fishbowl · · Score: 1


      >Honestly, I find it hard to believe that these guys doctored their Videos. I could believe photos, but video?

      Right. People who can't seem to get their hands on anything more current than a Russian VHS camcorder from 1985, are also doing video edits?

      I don't know what I find harder to believe, that these people can't go to a marketplace and pick up a basic consumer mini-dv, or that they have the resources to edit full motion video and yet they produce such really horrible quality output.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    15. Re:msm by fbjon · · Score: 1

      To be fair, if it's the Gwangju massacre in 1980 you're talking about, with a low estimate of over 200 dead students under military oppression, it was a pretty violent incident.

      --
      True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
    16. Re:msm by networkBoy · · Score: 2, Informative

      What's so hard to believe?
      If they shot in front of a fixed color backdrop there are automated tools to overlay images (weather guy on the local news anyone?)
      Even if they didn't all a video is, is a series of still images shown in rapid succession.
      Sure it takes a while, but it is *very* doable.
      -nB

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    17. Re:msm by jamstar7 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Honestly, I find it hard to believe that these guys doctored their Videos. I could believe photos, but video?

      Right. People who can't seem to get their hands on anything more current than a Russian VHS camcorder from 1985, are also doing video edits?

      I don't know what I find harder to believe, that these people can't go to a marketplace and pick up a basic consumer mini-dv, or that they have the resources to edit full motion video and yet they produce such really horrible quality output.

      Or, grabbing my tinfoil hat, say, certain governments cranking out some propaganda video, 'shopping the hell out of it, and dumping it through cut-outs to the 'enemy' news service so that they play it, to help bolster the certain government's position. Say, justification for a questionable war...

      It's getting to the point where the question isn't 'Are you paranoid?' but rather 'Are you paranoid enough?'

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
    18. Re:msm by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "If they are showing video of them in a fancy office, that implies their movement is doing well."

      Slightly OT here, but it was probably also done to make them harder to track down. I remember a lot of hoohaw over a Bin Laden tape where there were distinct rocks in the background. One of the major news outlets was making a big deal about how the Gov't could tell where in the world that film was shot just by the geological features. My guess is the group got wise to it and doesn't shoot without a fake background anymore.

      (This isn't a rebuttal to what you're saying, just another reason they'd do it.)

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    19. Re:msm by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Honestly, I find it hard to believe that these guys doctored their Videos. I could believe photos, but video? That's fairly advanced to make it look real. I'd be more inclined to believe Muslim political groups and al jazeera did the doctoring."

      It's not realy all that advanced. I was doing stuff like that 5 years ago with a cheap DV camera, a computer, and a $500 copy of AfterFX. Al-Qaeda wouldn't need very significant resources or time to doctor the video in the way the article shows. And, frankly, it'd be in their best interests to do so.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    20. Re:msm by Tom · · Score: 1

      What really needs to happen is these forgery-detection tools need to get in the hands of the "faithful" so they can convince themselves that they're being led by cowardly stooges. But that's exactly what happened - he released in on CD.

      Oh, wait. You were talking about the arabian faithful, I guess?
      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    21. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Given that so many reporters are dim bulbs, I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that was part of the power plant behind him. Either way, he was trying to make the story sensational as opposed to factual.

    22. Re:msm by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "The point of these isn't to "confuse the enemy", but to "boost morale of the troops", by showing their leaders as so successful that they can sit out in the open, in a living room somewhere, and lead a normal life in the face of the insignificant U.S. forces. While in reality, they're cowering in bunkers or caves, or perhaps hiding in Pakistan or Iran."

      Seems like it would be in our best interests....to "re-doctor" those videos, and put them in more suitable situations and release them into the wild for their followers to consume???

      :-)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    23. Re:msm by MrNaz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can't believe your view is the minority here. I don't understand why people find it easier to believe that the all-powerful Al-Qaeda videos are doctored by Osama and his crew than the videos are made by foreign agents who are fabricating the needed vindication for the decision to go to war and justification for continuing it.

      What is this, the Fox news forums?

      --
      I hate printers.
    24. Re:msm by sumdumass · · Score: 1, Insightful

      YEs, they either got wise to it or was wise about it all along. It is hard to have the press and a secret in america.

    25. Re:msm by 4solarisinfo · · Score: 1

      Don't forget, Al-Queda isn't just the guys hiding in caves with AK's, there are members in appartments and offices all over the world who are happy to contribut to the cause by editing a few videos, posting streaming media on the web, providing intel, etc.

    26. Re:msm by twinberettas · · Score: 1

      >>inappropriate use of stock footage or using visual scenes of the wrong event
       
      Exploding car makes EPIC LULZ!!!

    27. Re:msm by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Wow, Over rated mods in less then a minute from being posted. So I'm wondering, are the trolls after me again or are they protecting the press or whoever got wise.

      It is well know that the press have tipped the enemy off about programs plans and details of what we are doing. The only question is did Al Qeada know about this before the press made them aware of it or after.

      It would seem to me that knowing what I know now, I would do this to make it look like I was in places i wasn't in. If I was the enemy, I might even make it look like I was getting passed up by the soldier coming to kill me. I might also make it look as if I was roaming freely in areas already liberated by the military. nothing like making them feel like they didn't do their job right to get their moral down and have them mess up in the future. Maybe while we are at it, we could get some motivation to stop those against me from continuing to fight a loosing battle. You know, the waisted money for fail results thing.

      Anyways, I am not the enemy. I am not the ones telling them what we are doing or explaining what they are doing. I can only imagine what I would do or attempt to do if in that situation. It appears that all you have to do to win the war is last longer then the publics impression of winning. But just like every other program that we had to find the enemies intent, this is out of the bag now so this information will be useless to us again. Maybe that it why it was modded underrated so fast, It is because of pointing out once again how the press aided the enemy.

    28. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If in fact they are in a cave somewhere... then the message is a big fat lie.

      What, exactly, are you implying?

    29. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't even tell, is that a fucking joke?

    30. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nor do we know if the source of those videos were in fact Al-Qaeda.

      As an aside: Was watching a press event a while back. President Bush with then CIA Director Porter Goss. As Bush remarked upon our enduring efforts to locate and capture Osama Bin Laden, hot coffee would have shot from the nose of Porter Goss had he been drinking any. The look on the CIA Directors face was as precious as it was revealing in response to the Presidents assertion. A fleeting moment of unguarded shock and surprise over Bush's comments, Goss quickly composed himself.

      Such a comment would have surprised the CIA Director in particular, and specifically, if Goss well knew the audacity of the Presidents statement. In a matter of mere seconds captured on video that day, the animations of Porter Goss belied the rubric of the tale. It was as if Bin Laden has long been dead and the Intelligence community well knows this, yet here was the President continuing to assure the public that the United States is making every effort to capture and bring this criminal to justice.

      As CIA Director, Porter Goss didn't last long. Perhaps he was an honest man or failing that, a man of limits but regardless one cannot avoid acknowledging the impression nor discount the uneasy feeling that this President and his administration needs Osama Bin Laden alive and dangerous even if that means misleading the public by misstating facts and perpetuating falsehoods.

      Such pictures and video may well themselves serve in evidence of a greater injustice with truth in its immediacy found only in the hearts and minds of men. History in its aftermath may serve as the better record even though the passage of time is no friend to accuracy.

      Regarding the state of current affairs acknowledgment of truth depends on trust. Given the landscape as it exists today, where we might invest our trust is increasingly elusive for it is foolish to place much stock, if any, in what we read, see and hear beyond the limited first person account of events.

      Skepticism bordering on paranoia might be a good attribute to exercise these days but all that buys us is bloody and murderous anarchy. On the other hand ...

    31. Re:msm by br14n420 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who would be able to stop them?

      A bullet? A jail term?

      I fail to see the issue.

    32. Re:msm by Znork · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "by showing their leaders as so successful that they can sit out in the open, in a living room somewhere, and lead a normal life"

      Heh. When was the last time you saw Bush out in the open, leading a normal life? Our own western leaders are cowering in their versions of hideouts and bunkers, sometimes not even from an external enemy, but from their own population. Some will end up without any ability to ever travel outside the borders of their own country, in fear of running afoul of foreign warcrimes legislation.

      I enjoyed Frank Herberts idea from God Emperor of Dune, where the historical myth was that the emperor had to walk unprotected through an unchecked and unsearched crowd every year. If he survived he was a good ruler. Of course, that was faked and propaganda in the book as well, but the idea is alluring, although less useful in reality (as there unfortunately exist a whole bunch of other random reasons someone might off a person in power).

      Unfortunately, we're all lead by cowardly stooges. But even in the cases where the members of warring organizations realize that, they're reluctant to do anything about it. Even US generals appear afraid of denouncing their leadership until they're retired, and they dont have more than a job on the line, so why would you expect someone likely to get executed for dissent to point out such flaws?

    33. Re:msm by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      This wasn't a discovery in blogs, it's been well known for a longer than that to news junkies. Broadcasters used to flash a quick "Archive footage" disclaimer, but I don't think they do this anymore, not religiously at least. The Daily Show parodies this to great effect with ridiculous semi-related movie clips where real networks typically drop in their stock footage.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    34. Re:msm by Applekid · · Score: 1

      Well, if a society values freedom of speech none of those things are acceptable. The only thing that could be done, I guess, would be to discredit those who use doctored videos as truth... and we all see how Fox News and the Reutgers still manage to each get away with what they do even without video.

      The premise of The Running Man isn't as far-fetched an idea anymore than when that movie came out (or book from which it was based) ;)

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    35. Re:msm by teh_chrizzle · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, detecting the fakes isn't enough. The CIA could say "Hey, look, these are faked, you're following cowards" but that'd be dismissed simply due to the source. What really needs to happen is these forgery-detection tools need to get in the hands of the "faithful" so they can convince themselves that they're being led by cowardly stooges.

      the problem with the "faithful" is that they have so much faith. faith is not science; it cannot be disproved. this is true not just for islam, but anyone who has Real Faith in anything.

      --
      sarcasm:
      -noun
      1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
    36. Re:msm by mpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But these particular images appear to be doctored to enhance the message or provide a visually appealing background. They're probably doctored by the source. Therefore the doctored versions are what the original creators intended to express. So there's no reason for us to ignore these videos.

      But you do need to identify the source.

    37. Re:msm by mpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't understand why people find it easier to believe that the all-powerful Al-Qaeda videos are doctored by Osama and his crew than the videos are made by foreign agents who are fabricating the needed vindication for the decision to go to war and justification for continuing it.

      Possibly because the whole Al-Qaeda as some global terrorist conspiracy is easier for them to accept than the idea that "Western" governments might contain a sizable quantity of power mad dishonest crooks.

    38. Re:msm by Noexit · · Score: 1

      There's a website called, what is it, YouTube? Apparently any jackass with a cell phone and $5 worth of computer equipment can mass produce a video, including editing it.

      --

      Never argue with a man carrying a water buffalo

    39. Re:msm by CreatureComfort · · Score: 0, Flamebait


      Your powers of self-delusion and self-contradiction are truly impressive.

      If you can sit there and in a few moments think of these things on your own, why in the world do you think the 'enemies' can't do it? I am sure that the 'enemies' have people just as sophisticated and intelligent as you. Digitally altering video backgrounds proves that. Many of them are probably /. regulars, and many are educated in western colleges. The press making a comment is not going to be the tip off to them on how to use technology to deceive you.

      But, then, in your own post, you propose several very good ideas that an unsophisticated enemy might not have thought of, and that were never mentioned, or certainly not to the detail you went into, in any press story I've seen. And then have the gall to lambast the press for aiding the enemy, when your own post would be far more helpful to a lurking al-quaida member!

      You sir, are a true piece of work.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    40. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With a super-pixellated chunky framerate youtube presentation I'm not that impressed. Really, with enough hard enough work you can do that my just painting pixels in individual frames.

      Presumably their original was better resolution, but how high? If I could see that stuff in convincing 1080x1920 HDTV, we're talking. I think it's really, really, really hard to do convincing manipulation at that resolution.

    41. Re:msm by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I have one advantage over the enemy. Hindsight.

      That's right, it is easy to think of what you are going to do or would like to do when you have the hind sight of what is happening. It is like chiming in on Monday that you would have done something different in the ball game that your weren't part of on the previous Sunday. IT is much easier to make a decision or create a plane after you know the other possibilities aren't working.

      However, in this case, Image manipulation is still going to happen, they cannot stop it is they were passing messages on to their lackeys because it would mean that all the information found in the previous stuff would be valid. Now, we know that the majority of stuff will be invalid because they know we are on to them. And because we know that they will be creating cheep rip offs of what I said, their efforts will be worth less then if they just came out and did it. In other words, you can take what I said to discredit stuff found that resembles it as apposed to loosing a piece of information that might have been present had they not known we were looking in that place.

      The majority of criminals get caught not because they are stupid. It is because they aren't as smart as the people going after them. They can be smarter then you or me but still not smart enough to out whit the pursuers. Plus the pursuers have the benefit of the crime or whatever having already happened so they can use hindsight to see what the perpetrator couldn't before it happened. The same should be said with terrorist and whoever else we are after.

      Of course they wouldn't be waisting the efforts on giving the information in this way without the ability to guarantee we would be looking at it. In no way was what I did the same thing as confirming to the enemy, the steps we are taking to beat them. I'm sorry you got modded flaimbait because this is somewhat of a valid discussion. It's just that your point isn't correct.

    42. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the 1970s, my mom, when she played classical harp professionally, was interviewed by Time. They asked her what her average income per job was. She was reluctant to give a figure since it varied based on the gig, of course. Then they asked her what the highest pay she got was, which she willingly answered. That figure got into the story as her average income.

      It was not good for her reputation.

    43. Re:msm by jhol13 · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say news has always been entertainment. Well, maybe it is now in the USA, I wouldn't know as I much rather watch BBC, etc.

    44. Re:msm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (This isn't a rebuttal to what you're saying, just another reason they'd do it.)


      I'd have thought it'd be easier to shoot against a blank wall, or a relatively nondescript scene than go and put in a lot of post-production work.
    45. Re:msm by algoa456 · · Score: 1

      Not only governments, but scandalously news agencies like Associated Press too (which is almost worse since one naturally distrusts governments, but is more forgving of news agencies). Recall in the recent war in Lebanon there was an AP photographer who merrily doctored images and added content to his war pictures - and even simpler than Photoshop he just posed pictures. It may be that this has been going on for longer than we realize.

    46. Re:msm by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I was doing it fifteen years ago with WinImages and a single frame Panasonic SVHS video recorder/player. This isn't recent technology — Adobe was quite late to the table with AfterFX. The idea that it would be troublesome for anyone today is bankrupt.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    47. Re:msm by WWWWolf · · Score: 1

      There are many reasons for doctoring photos. The point of these isn't to "confuse the enemy", but to "boost morale of the troops", by showing their leaders as so successful that they can sit out in the open, in a living room somewhere, and lead a normal life in the face of the insignificant U.S. forces. While in reality, they're cowering in bunkers or caves, or perhaps hiding in Pakistan or Iran.

      Okay, so now they are probably thinking, "Damn, they found out that our motivational photos were photoshopped. I guess it's time to finally cart the office furniture to the bunker, and paint the walls. And on top of that, The Guy doesn't need to lie anymore when he says he has a nice cosy office!"

      If done right, that can be slightly more difficult to detect =)

    48. Re:msm by doom · · Score: 1

      Some will end up without any ability to ever travel outside the borders of their own country, in fear of running afoul of foreign warcrimes legislation.

      But there's always Albania.

    49. Re:msm by doom · · Score: 1

      MrNaz wrote:

      I can't believe your view is the minority here. I don't understand why people find it easier to believe that the all-powerful Al-Qaeda videos are doctored by Osama and his crew than the videos are made by foreign agents who are fabricating the needed vindication for the decision to go to war and justification for continuing it.

      • If you want to believe that We are the good guys, then you refuse to believe that We might release faked propaganda.
      • If you want to believe that The Terrorists are knuckle-dragging barbarians, then you don't want to believe that they can do basic video-editing.
      • If you want to believe that We are the best, then you don't want to believe that anyone else can do anything clever or effective and We must be behind everything.

      Using what you want to believe as a primary premise is unlikely to get you to the truth.

      (But I like the point that if they can do video editing, it seems weird they can't do a decent video.)

    50. Re:msm by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "I'd have thought it'd be easier to shoot against a blank wall, or a relatively nondescript scene than go and put in a lot of post-production work."

      It would have been easier, certainly, but I wouldn't say it was a 'lot' of post-production work. Depending on the length of the video, it would have been far less than an evening's work for one person. Most of that would have been spent waiting for processing of the final video. Chroma-key is very easy to do and even an ameteur can crank it out, especially when it's just a black wall behind the dude. I was doing that 5 years ago with a cheapy DV camera.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    51. Re:msm by ozphx · · Score: 1

      My Dad was a paratrooper in the british army, and he was doing some peacekeeping on some small island. They got dropped in to help with a coup that never happened, so they basically sat at their checkpoints and enjoyed the pay.

      Some photographer saw one of the soldiers chatting to a kid, yelled out "Hes gonna shoot you, run!"... and started snapping away at the big mean army scaring the kids.

      Course this was back in the 70s, so it ended up with an expensive camera reduced to small pieces, one locked up journalist, and put on a plane out about a week later. ;)

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
  6. Done for their safety? by jsight · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There was a report several years ago that the US had used the rock outcroppings behind Osama in one of his videos to attempt to locate him. I wonder if some of these modifications are made to make locating them more difficult?

    1. Re:Done for their safety? by HitekHobo · · Score: 1

      That's my guess. Looking at what was changed, other than 'set dressing', I can't think of a good reason to change only the background other than to present an anonymous room or a room that does not exist without having their leader stand in front of a white sheet and look ludicrous.

    2. Re:Done for their safety? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      What it sounds like is that the guy was actually taped standing in front of a black sheet, and then the background was dropped in during postproduction.

      It's really not much different from the chroma-keying that lets the TV weatherman stand in front of a map instead of a blue screen. (Except it's not really "chroma" keying with a black screen.)

      And my assumption would be that it's to avoid giving anything away about the location where it was filmed.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    3. Re:Done for their safety? by NearlyHeadless · · Score: 1

      That's my guess. Looking at what was changed, other than 'set dressing', I can't think of a good reason to change only the background other than to present an anonymous room or a room that does not exist without having their leader stand in front of a white sheet and look ludicrous.
      I can't think of a good reason, period. I don't think Krawetz's analysis proves what he says it does.
    4. Re:Done for their safety? by cdrudge · · Score: 1

      And my assumption would be that it's to avoid giving anything away about the location where it was filmed.
      If that was the case, why not just stand in front of a black/grey/white/etc background. Even just a sheet would work. Highly portable. Easy to setup. Untraceable. Plus there is no post-production. I'm not a conspiracy theorist generally, but I think there is more to the background then just being in an anonymous location and showing off their "1337 skilz".
    5. Re:Done for their safety? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, and this is just me speculating here, I think the person is shot in front of a plain background for 'security' reasons; the background (the room with the bookshelf is dropped in (rather than just distributing the video with the plain background) for PR.

      Having the background gives the impression of a more stable organization than a clearly handi-cammed video in front of a bedsheet would. Also, I don't know what the books are in the background, but there's probably some symbolism in them (and the cannon). It gives the thing an air of legitimacy that you just wouldn't have in front of a plain backdrop.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    6. Re:Done for their safety? by zippthorne · · Score: 0

      Y'know, I agree. Where are the pictures that Krawetz took with his own camera and deliberately doctored to demonstrate the technique? Not on the news site, or any site I can see. Perhaps because he didn't think of doing that.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    7. Re:Done for their safety? by hoggoth · · Score: 5, Funny

      If Osama has any sense of humor at all, in his next videos he will be standing in front of The Whitehouse, standing side-by-side with the Statue of Liberty, as a talking head on Mt. Rushmore, on a fake-studio set of a moon landing, etc.
      Come on, you can't be all 'kill-the-infidels' ALL the time?!

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    8. Re:Done for their safety? by Kurrurrin · · Score: 5, Funny

      http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/forensics/

      Or maybe he did. Your google-fu is weak.

      --
      -Doug
    9. Re:Done for their safety? by ScrappyLaptop · · Score: 1

      Duh...why do you think Max Headroom had that constantly changing background? He was a fugative! In all seriousness, a completely fabricated video is what we should come to expect from anyone that is in fear of some sort of retribution, be it Al-Queada or just some alternate social sub culture's video. The scary thing is what it could lead to: Laser printer "yellow dots" for all video equipment. Trivial to hide a machine ID in all that noisy video, but it'll give the authorities an idea of who is producing or recording the images...

    10. Re:Done for their safety? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heard the same. I did a bit of googling and came up with this article (although it is only an abstract). There's also a comment and reply to this article, but it isn't accessible, unfortunately. And here's a news article. From the looks of it, they had mixed success because the quality of the video tape was so poor.

      For a geologist (I'm one) seemingly mundane outcrops of rock can be as distinctive as, oh [struggling with analogy] the US Capitol Building versus the UK Houses of Parliament. Both the rock and the way it is naturally weathered can be quite unique, almost like a fingerprint, and it will be very familiar to a geologist that worked in the area.

      Cross reference the geology with a bit of extra information (e.g., time of day, shadow height and angle, or some general idea of where someone is), and it could really narrow down the possibilities. It's even better if the camera moves, because it becomes possible to recover some types of 3D information using stereo photogrammetry techniques

      It is interesting that after those early "video in a canyon" clips of bin Laden most of the terrorist video clips supposedly from Afganistan (or Pakistan?) have had a bland-looking sheet or some other backdrop. As you suggest, I think the terrorists learned the lesson that they were giving away more information than they thought. The same is true for almost any outdoor scene.

    11. Re:Done for their safety? by buswolley · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      mod up funny

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    12. Re:Done for their safety? by coaxial · · Score: 1

      Family Guy did that.

    13. Re:Done for their safety? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on, you can't be all 'kill-the-infidels' ALL the time?!

      Well no, but OTOH the jihadis are 'kill-all-Westerners' ALL THE TIME!
    14. Re:Done for their safety? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well no, but OTOH the jihadis are 'kill-all-Westerners' ALL THE TIME! That just isn't true... Jihadis don't want to kill "Westerners"... they want to convert us, or make Christians and Jews pay an extra tax to be allowed to live in a Worldwide Muslim Society. That's all... don't be all fear mongering. If we just do whatever those crazy motherfuckers say then there is nothing to fear.
    15. Re:Done for their safety? by jhoffman1986 · · Score: 1

      Can you please contact me? I have a question about your earlier post on satellite dishes and apartments

  7. Fake photos and pixel experts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Best fun ever is to paste a URL to a photo among a whole load of self-professed photoshop experts, and get them to identify which bit has been changed.

    Hours of fun.

  8. Asked for further analysis... by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 1

    Dustin Hoffman unavailable for comments...

  9. Software - Good thing. by iknownuttin · · Score: 1

    In some states, digital images are not allowed in a court of law as evidence. And many critics of the news media and digital photography in general are against digital because of the ease of altering images compared to wet (analog) photography. Hopefully, software like this will make digital a bit more acceptable. The only thing I'm a little worried about is how accurate it is.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:Software - Good thing. by Rob+T+Firefly · · Score: 1

      The problem with that is with the right gear, you can still create a really high-res photoshop of something, and then take a photograph of the photoshopped image. Instant analog!

      Photographs in general will never be as reliable as they once were, regardless of the format.

    2. Re:Software - Good thing. by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 5, Informative

      Most forensic photography is digital these days and the resulting images run through verification software to prove that they are 'straight from the camera'.

      The SLRs I shoot are Canons and they provide the option of "Add Original Decision Data" in their settings. Combined with Canon's data verification kit any of the images I shoot can be demonstrated to be originals, with minimal in camera image processing.

      And anyone who thinks image alteration in the film world is too hard to undertake to swing a court case can't be taken seriously.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    3. Re:Software - Good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because I can't take a 10 megapixel picture, Photoshop it, then take it to Walmart (or maybe a slightly more expensive) print shop. Bam! Instant analog.

    4. Re:Software - Good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I hate to burst you bubble, but I do a lot of work with computer assisted microscopy, and I can tell you that altering the binary data without touching the header would be a no-brainer (provided that one knows what format the header is in). If there is e.g. a checksum in the header, updating that (to match the new image data) is also not a big deal ("1337" crackers do that sort of thing as a matter of routine).

      If there's only one copy of a file, it can be manipulated to contain just about any data that one desires, including falsified "verification" information, and no one (except for the one who did the manipulation) could prove otherwise (assuming that said data manipulation was performed competently).

    5. Re:Software - Good thing. by necro81 · · Score: 4, Informative

      You might also check out the research of Hany Farid, a CS researcher at Dartmouth who has come up with algorithms to detect if an image has been doctored.

    6. Re:Software - Good thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm not sure, but perhaps what the parent was talking about, included the fact that very subtle aspects of the sensors in the camera, can be correlated with the output. So just being able to flip pixels in the output isn't good enough, because if you flip them the wrong way, it becomes provable that they didn't come from the sensor in the camera.

    7. Re:Software - Good thing. by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 1

      Don't worry about my bubble as don't even have one related to image verification, I was just pointing out that some technology had been brought to bear on the problem.

      Yes, their cameras can attach metadata to an image based on its content while still in the camera. The kit then reads the metadata to determine whether any bits have been altered. If you string along enough ifs it can be cracked, certainly.

      I hear Canon's latest top level DSLR can encrypt both the image and all its associated metadata, in camera, allowing it to be decrypted by someone other than the photographer or even his news agency. If GPS data is included I might develop a bubble you can burst, because with the kind of shooting I do a lot of people sometimes argue over where certain things took place.

      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
  10. well, Duh... by obergfellja · · Score: 2, Insightful

    who do you think has been using Photoshop? The US Gov has given so many lies and cover-ups over this damn war on terror, I would not be surprised if all lies started with image and video editing.

    1. Re:well, Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet George Bush has been altering these images himself because he is such a big dummy!

    2. Re:well, Duh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US Gov has given so many lies and cover-ups over this damn war on terror, I would not be surprised if all lies started with image and video editing.

      The US Media has given so many lies and cover-ups over this damn war on terror, I would not be surprised if all lies started with image and video editing.

      Which is more true???

  11. Logical Fallacy by bigattichouse · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The logical fallacy is "Al qaeda edited these videos" ... perhaps it should be stated as "Al qaeda videos have been edited" ... you have no idea WHO actually edited them.

    Not that I'm pointing fingers or anything. ahem (wag the dog)

    --
    meh
    1. Re:Logical Fallacy by JohnFluxx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your logical fallacy is "Al qaeda videos have been edited"... perhaps it should be stated as "Videos, from a person (apparently) who claims that they are part of Al qaeda, appear to have been edited, according to someone else"

    2. Re:Logical Fallacy by bigattichouse · · Score: 1

      touché!

      --
      meh
    3. Re:Logical Fallacy by E++99 · · Score: 1

      The logical fallacy is "Al qaeda edited these videos" ... perhaps it should be stated as "Al qaeda videos have been edited" ... you have no idea WHO actually edited them.

      I think the only conclusion that can be sustained by the technology is "Al Qaeda videos have been modified" not neccessarily "edited". TFA claims that books were added to the background in the frame they show, but it seems to me much more likely that when the titles were added they also adjusted brightness, contrast and white balance, and that caused more change in the area of the books than elsewhere, causing the effects picked up by the software.
    4. Re:Logical Fallacy by Beat+The+Odds · · Score: 1

      The logical fallacy is "Al qaeda edited these videos" ... perhaps it should be stated as "Al qaeda videos have been edited" ... you have no idea WHO actually edited them.

      It's not a logical fallacy, it's just a false assumption.

    5. Re:Logical Fallacy by FleaPlus · · Score: 1

      Your logical fallacy is "Al qaeda videos have been edited"... perhaps it should be stated as "Videos, from a person (apparently) who claims that they are part of Al qaeda, appear to have been edited, according to someone else"

      Unless somebody did a very good job of finding a al-Zawahiri impersonator, I think we can assume that at least the part of the video containing him is from Al Qaeda.

    6. Re:Logical Fallacy by veganboyjosh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your logical fallacy is "Videos, from a person (apparently) who claims that they are part of Al qaeda, appear to have been edited, according to someone else"... perhaps it should be stated as "A collection of still images, presumably photographic in nature, from a being, presumably from this planet, known as a 'person', who claims that they are part of Al Qaeda, appear to have been edited, according to another being, presumably also from this planet, also known as a person.

    7. Re:Logical Fallacy by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      ahem (wag the dog)

      I wonder if that phrase has lost any of its panache from everyone screaming it when Pres. Clinton attacked al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan with missiles. After all, he was only trying to draw attention away from the Lewinsky scandal!

    8. Re:Logical Fallacy by seebs · · Score: 1

      No, a fallacy is a bad argument. Not an unsupported conclusion. The conclusion of a fallacy is an unsupported conclusion, but that doesn't make the conclusion itself a fallacy.

      The fallacy is "AQ made these videos, these videos have been edited, therefore AQ edited these videos". (I think the fallacy is hidden premise.) The statement that AQ edited these videos is merely an unsupported statement.

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
  12. Seriously...they needed to do image forensics??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Seriously...wtf? Both are so badly done it's laughable. Hell the first image had it's background done in some 3D application. I almost shit myself laughing at the canon & light behind him. On the second one the guy isn't even lighted even close to the same as the backdrop. I highly doubt they are trying to fool anyone (use the background to figure out where they are otherwise) because if they are I've done better in my High School AV class on an AVID so many years ago.

  13. damn it. by Daniel+K.+Attling · · Score: 1

    I don't want to read subs, can't we just dub it like in Germany/France/Italy/Spain or better yet, do a classic Hollywood remake?

  14. Just wipe out the Exif? by grassy_knoll · · Score: 1
    From TFA:

    Using a program he wrote (and provided on the conference CD-ROM) Krawetz could print out the quantization tables in a JPEG file (that indicate how the image was compressed) and determine the last tool that created the image -- that is, the make and model of the camera if the image is original or the version of Photoshop that was used to alter and re-save the image.

    Comparing that data to the metadata embedded in the image he could determine if the photo was original or had been re-saved or altered. Then, using error level analysis of an image he could determine what were the last parts of an image that were added or modified.


    So if it's comparing the compression used to the Exif data, couldn't one use a tool to wipe out the Exif data, thus obscuring the manipulation? Error level analysis seems more art than science, at least from the corrections in TFA.
    1. Re:Just wipe out the Exif? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My understanding is that his technique is actually cleverer than that. It picks up on the amount of noise in the picture resulting from the JPEG compression process. You can see which areas have been recompressed, or compressed differently. This information will survive transcoding processes.

      The terrorists should be using uncompressed video data for recording and editing... recompression and transcoding never improve quality!

    2. Re:Just wipe out the Exif? by Tokimasa · · Score: 1

      EXIF is only half of the answer. The other half lies in sensor noise patterns. I'm too lazy to dig up and link to some research right now, but look for papers on the identification of digital cameras based on sensor noise patterns.

      --
      --Thomas J. Owens
    3. Re:Just wipe out the Exif? by grassy_knoll · · Score: 1
      Interesting. I did find a few papers on the subject, but also ran across this:

      Additional analog-signal-processing circuitry located in the periphery of the array permits suppression of both temporal and fixed-pattern noise. While fixed-pattern noise was an issue with early CMOS active-pixel image sensors, recent sensors have no discernible fixed-pattern noise induced by circuitry and are instead limited by dark current in the pixels. Dark currents of less than 1,000 electrons/second per pixel at room temperature are routinely achieved.


      I'm hardly an expert, but perhaps advancements in CMOS cameras might render foresnic sensor noise pattern analysis redundant.

    4. Re:Just wipe out the Exif? by mikael · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here's a good few:

      http://isis.poly.edu/~forensics/pubs/icme2007.pdf

      http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/Research/Luk FriSPIE06_v9.pdf

      http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/Research/dou ble.pdf

      http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/10206/32570/101109 TIFS2006873602.pdf?arnumber=101109TIFS2006873602

      The actual signatures can be retrieved from signal processing methods. I wouldn't have believed that each
      camera has its own unique signature (although I have noticed that one or two pixels will be fixed to a particular colour), and that this can be recovered even after JPEG compression.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    5. Re:Just wipe out the Exif? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or they could be like some printers that add identifying marks to pages they print out, they could leave specific patterns in the images they take.

    6. Re:Just wipe out the Exif? by Tokimasa · · Score: 1

      Each camera does indeed have its own signature. Also, there are similarities in signatures across a particular model of camera, as well.

      --
      --Thomas J. Owens
  15. Rule 34 by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    I always wondered why there wasn't some video showing Bin Laden (and all of the big shots with Al Qaeda) eating bacon while jerking off to Barbie Dolls and getting it up the ass.

    I guarantee you it's out there.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:Rule 34 by veganboyjosh · · Score: 1

      I always wondered why there wasn't some video showing Bin Laden (and all of the big shots with Al Qaeda) eating bacon while jerking off to Barbie Dolls and getting it up the ass.

      I guarantee you it's out there.

      link, please?

    2. Re:Rule 34 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lurk moar

  16. A doctored picture is worth a thousand lies by davidwr · · Score: 4, Funny

    The tricky part is knowing if it's been doctored.

    OB /.ism: In Soviet Russia, propaganda pictures manipulate YOU!

    Oh wait, that was the whole point :(.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:A doctored picture is worth a thousand lies by Cairnarvon · · Score: 1

      In fairness, at least that makes your quote more in the spirit of the original. Soviet Russia jokes weren't meant to just be random, they were meant to be unsettling.
      The most typical one was "In Soviet Russia, TV watches YOU!", after all.

  17. Just keeping up with the US press... by will_die · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Who needs Al-Qaeda when we already have Reuters and the New York Times??

    1. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Starcom8826 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thats right. Watch video with a stopwatch in hand. You'll see that they don't fall at 9.81 m/s^2.

    2. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by dkf · · Score: 2, Informative

      Steel doesn't melt (~2700 degrees F) at temperatures reached by puddles of burning petroleum fuel (~1200 degrees F) You should be aware specifically that while it takes a great deal of heat to melt steel, it takes a lot less to soften it a lot. After all, without that particular feature there wouldn't have been blacksmiths producing steel going back thousands of years (or did you think that the Roman legionaries' gladius was made by casting molten steel?) and hence the fact that a jet-fuel fire softened the steel enough in a high-stress application to cause catastrophic failure is not especially surprising. This sort of thing is a problem in many other buildings made with reinforced concrete that have undergone fires, and is an effect that has been well-known for decades.

      If you're going to be a kook on the topic of the 9/11 collapse, don't use the melting point of steel as part of your argument as it is a factually weak link. It's less damaging to your overall case to ignore this part. :-)
      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    3. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by gtall · · Score: 1

      Wow, now I can tell all my friends I read this really neat AC on Slashdot that explained the TT fall. Are you an engineer from the future?

    4. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah yeah yeah, we know, we know. Bloody everyone knows now. Only a few Americans still shocked by cognitive dissonance are left in denial. It's just a matter of time. What is interesting is that these people who think they are getting away with it are leaving a permenant trail of breadcrumbs everywhere they go. I forgot about those faked Reuters photos. God, did they do a bad job of those, it's laughable. But eventually all those fragments, IP numbers, dates, EXIF codes, shipping recipts and phone calls are gonna nail them. They think they are being clever and fooling us but they picked the wrong century to try such naive deceptions. Trust me, technology will be the leveller that works on our side in the end.

    5. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      How did a plane that crashed around the 80th floor manage to soften the steel throughout the entire building, from below the 1st floor to the 110th floor? Wouldn't a progressive softening of the steel, especially concentrated on one side of the building, cause the building to tip over sideways rather than fall neatly into its own footprint?

      I suggest you read this article if you want a scientific perspective.

    6. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, if it's not the melting point in the first place: I've seen firemen tell stories about finding pools of liquid pools of steel TWO WEEKS later.

    7. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't a progressive softening of the steel, especially concentrated on one side of the building, cause the building to tip over sideways rather than fall neatly into its own footprint?

      No. It's not a goddamned tree-house we're talking about. Do you have any idea of the mass that's sitting directly above the area about to buckle from softening? And the moment that mass becomes poorly loaded across the entire structure, the stress weakens the entire structure. In an instant, you've got steel that can't possibly hold the thing up, and the whole thing buckles. The impact from the mass overhead buckles the floors below, and down she goes... getting more and more "straight down" with every inch it travels. The non-softened steel below doesn't have a chance of holding up under the direct collapse of multiple floors above. That you're SO anxious to find some bad X-Files episode buried in here is far more mysterious than the particular vagueries of a tall structure failing.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    8. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      Your explanation is pure fantasy. It makes no sense and would never happen in the real world, at least a world with physics similar to ours.

      And the moment that mass becomes poorly loaded across the entire structure, the stress weakens the entire structure.

      What the heck are you talking about? No, certain trusses are absorbing more stress than others. The overall structure is weakened, but some points more than others.

      The impact from the mass overhead buckles the floors below, and down she goes... getting more and more "straight down" with every inch it travels.

      The pancake theory is fantasy. The structure collapsed in less than 10 seconds. As the linked article in my earlier post makes clear a pancake collapse would take much longer. Also, how would it get more and more straight down with every inch it travels down? It encounters resistance if the lower structure is still in place, and that resistance would cause the weight of the upper floors to tumble in other directions, just like a rock rolls down a mountain. That is NOT what was observed on 9/11. The whole thing folded like a house of cards. Twice. Then WTC7 collapsed for no apparent reason ("fire" my ass).

      I suggest you read up on Steven E. Jones and what he has to say about the collapses.

    9. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Your explanation is pure fantasy.

      Compared to, say, a mass murder plot that would involve hundreds of people at least, and the knowledge of thousands in a government that can't even keep its foreign surveilance programs secret? Compared to a large structure, running 24 hours a day, with an army of building engineers and maintenance people, none of whom noticed people crawling around it placing explosives?

      The overall structure is weakened, but some points more than others.

      NO piece of that structure could stand for a moment without the whole structure being solid. I suppose that bridge in Minnesota, which only took seconds to fall, was also professionally destroyed by men in black working for Dick Cheney?

      The overall structure is weakened, but some points more than others.

      So what? NONE of the structure, minus the substantial parts weakend by heat and stress, are capable of supporting the mass above it. Not even close. I can hold up a 20 pound iron skillet in my kitchen using drinking straws, too. But if one or two buckle, the whole thing comes down. Inertia and gravity have a lot to do with how that plays out, and when you're dealing with colossal masses, and no lateral forces being exerted, down is where things go.

      It encounters resistance if the lower structure is still in place, and that resistance would cause the weight of the upper floors to tumble in other directions, just like a rock rolls down a mountain.

      Other than the fact that this is nothing at all, whatsoever, like that terrible analogy. A rock is a tiny fraction of the mass of the mountain it's rolling down. The mountain isn't made of thin vertical supports, and doesn't have something like the top third of it sitting on top of those thin supports as they buckle. The WTC tower didn't have some solid-rock RAMP (like the side of a mountain) sitting inside them to deflect huges masses from above. The inside of the tower is mostly air. The vertical beams were never designed to hold up accelerating, shock-pounding masses collapsing from above - they were desiged to bear static weight, with the entire structure present to do the job, and to flex ever so subtly in high winds. The mass of the tower above the first sections to buckle were stil holding together (laterally). That makes the "rock" on your "mountain" the same size as your mountain.

      Twice.

      Mysterious! Astounding! It's almost as if... they were built the same way, and suffered pretty much identical damage. And almost as if the tremendous energy involved in the collapse did things like displace big pieces of metal that went crashing across the way into:

      Then WTC7 collapsed for no apparent reason ("fire" my ass).

      Where vertical supports were devasted by lateral-moving wreckage from the tower next door, and little things like generator fuel tanks got nicely peppered by red-hot debris, sparking electrical equipment (including huge battery backups in data facilities in the building). Again: that buidling wasn't designed to stand with important pieces of its central supporting structure weakened. Of COURSE if fell in on itself. What would be amazing would be if it fell any other way.

      So, again: what's your actual agenda, that you're so anxious to cling to this little bit of nonsense? Is it REALLY worth perpetuating that kind of crap just so that your preferred politicians don't have to actually face up to the idealogies that drive the people that actually flew the planes into those structures? How are you on the moon landing, by the way? Loch Ness? Area 51's fleet of alien ships? So much ground to cover! I don't know how you get any sleep.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    10. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      Blah blah blah. You have nothing more than insults and dismissive waves of your hand anytime you're confronted with something you can't explain away logically.

      You still haven't accounted for how WTC1 & 2 collapsed in less than 10 seconds. If a progressive collapse was the case it would've taken closer to 25 seconds, or more. You don't seem to like to discuss this part. In fact, your whole post is a gigantic dance around the issue. You talk about Dick Cheney, moon landings and Area 51 because you can't refute the observed truth.

      Then you have the gall to accuse me of being a nutjob. Somebody here is ignoring reality, but it isn't me.

      Oh, btw, I live in Minnesota and I can be quite certain that Dick Cheney had nothing to do with the bridge. You know how I know? Because he's not using the collapse as a pretext to invade other countries and "fix their bridges for them" or whatever bullshit excuse got us into Iraq. But then, you probably fell for that lie.

    11. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      The towers did not neatly fall onto their own footprint. They caused heavy damage to several nearby buildings.

      Next question?

    12. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      Look at the videos and pay attention to the timer.

      Then check the seismograph records from that day. The collapse did not take 10 seconds.

    13. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      You still haven't accounted for how WTC1 & 2 collapsed in less than 10 seconds.

      They didn't.

      If a progressive collapse was the case it would've taken closer to 25 seconds, or more.

      And what do you base that claim on?

    14. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by labnet · · Score: 1

      "And what do you base that claim on?"

      Conservation of momentum.
      Read 'Debunking 911 Debunking' by David Griffin. By the end of the book you should be about 99% sure it was an inside job.

      eg. Phone calls made at 40kft.
      The Pentagon for example.
      The plane was heading direct for the wedge that had the top brass, but instead overflew, did 330deg 6000ft+ descent turn (that 767 pilots have called extremely difficult and by a pilot refused cesna hire) and flew in ground effect for several hundred metres and impacted the most reinforced lightly populated part of the building. The NTSB released black box data showed the plane on a different flight path. Open your eyes!

      --
      46137
    15. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      This.

      What do you base your claim on?

      (Actually, my link says it was 8.6 seconds for WTC2. And he says a progressive collapse would be closer to 43 seconds, so I was being quite conservative with those numbers.)

    16. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Minnesota and I can be quite certain that Dick Cheney had nothing to do with the bridge

      Given all the anti-Bush crowd's sentiment, I'm surprised to not see anyone on /. blame the bridge collapse on Bush. It's time they spoke up and let their opinion about it be known.
    17. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      Look at any video clip of the collapse, with a timer on the display.
      It took 15 seconds for the collapse to get to the stage where dust enveloped everything.
      At that stage the collapses were still not complete.
      The seismographs give it several seconds more.

      As for being "conservative", these things are not matters for haggling.
      Tell us specifically, why you think a progressive collapse would take that long.

    18. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      No. Not until you read my link.

      Until you can prove you did that I would be wasting my time. I've played this game before.

    19. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      Just what do you mean by "conservation of momentum"? Specifically, how do you calculate how long the collapse should have taken under progressive collapse conditions? Don't just pull a number out of your ass.

      Now go read screwloosechange.blogspot.com's articles on Dave Griffin. The man's facts do not stand to scrutiny.

      Re: phone calls: airfones.

      Re: Pentagon: when I am drunk, I stagger. Even a skilled acrobat would have a hard time replicating my drunken stagger. But that does not mean my stagger is difficult to do. Hani Nanjour was an inept pilot whose manoeverings were the result of his ineptness. A skilled pilot would have a hard time replicating his flight path, because a skilled pilot wouldn't have flown like that in the first place.

    20. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      So you have no idea why a progressive collapse should have taken 26 seconds, or 46, or any other duration. You're just pulling a number out of your ass. Thank you for establishing that.

    21. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      Shall I pre-empt you when you point at that link? The guy says this: "The absolute minimum amount of time for a progressive collapse would be 43 seconds." And he gives NO REASON why it should be so. And neither do you.

    22. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      No, thank you for proving that you have the inability to follow a hyperlink.

      Hell, I'll even throw in another one for good measure. Where's your evidence?

    23. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      Neither link explains WHY the progressive collapse should have taken 26 seconds, or 46 seconds. All they do is assert that it should have taken however long they think they should have taken.

      Again: why do you think progressive collapse should have taken 46 seconds?

    24. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      As you replied a mere 4 minutes after my post I can only assume that you are totally full of shit and didn't even bother to check either link (and you got your numbers wrong).

      Here, let me hold your hand, little boy:

      "But the craziest, most truly unhinged conspiracy theory for the towers falling on 9/11?" Torin asks rhetorically. "Fire." The official story cannot be recreated by any experiment. NIST is the government agency involved in attempting to model what happened to the world trade center on 9/11, and they fail horribly. NIST never models what happens after the collapse initiation, and even what they do model before that is easily debunked. NIST created 16 separate physics programs to simulate the WTC 1 & 2 collapses and only got 1 to collapse partially. Torin adds, "When they did, [in the computer model] they removed 40% of the structural support." The cross trusses that the towers received a significant amount of their strength from had to be removed to have a collapse in the computer simulation. Torin then mocks the official story, "There's no such thing as a 'pancake' collapse, but there is a progressive collapse"

      A few slides are shown of progressive collapses throughout the world. None of them are anything like what happened to the world trade center with its pulverized concrete 100 microns or smaller just seconds after the start of collapse, and then its complete destruction. Torin uses his expertise to explain to the audience how and why a real progressive collapse occurs and subsequently why the WTC was not a progressive collapse. "The biggest problem with the argument," Torin explains. "Time."

      Several slides are then presented that show the hard physics and observed time of WTC 2 falling. Worst-case scenario would require 0.5 seconds per floor for collapse. "The absolute minimum amount of time for a progressive collapse would be 43 seconds." How long did it take for the building to fall in reality? About 8.6 Seconds.

      "For the towers to fall at so close to free fall speed, over 110,000 separate and independent structural support points had to fail simultaneously. 'Pancake theory' does NOT explain the failure of the cores." Torin explains passionately, obviously upset with the lies being told to the American people. "Nothing is holding the building up - No resistance. 110,000 structural failures at the same time."

    25. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So, again, all we hear is "several slides are shown that say that..." without a SINGLE allusion to the physical principles that we're supposed to assume have been established (but in no way recounted). In other words: he's talking out of his ass, and the person who's describing the presentation is simply buying off on it because slides were shown, and then you're buying off on that. The scientific method, hard at work!

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    26. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      Much better.

      Next question: the 46 second claim assumes the collapse should have 1. happened one floor at a time, and 2. shed all momentum at each floor.

      Both claims are utter bullshit. The impact from the top segment falling on the bottom segment was perfectly capable of of being transferred much further down at the speed of sound through steel. When each impact at the can pop the rivets 4 or more floors down, it will not happen one floor one floor at a time. Secondly, why the hell would the top segment lose all momentum at each impact?

    27. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      If you would've checked the link you would've known that you can download his powerpoint and see for yourself.

      The ScentCone method, hard at work!

    28. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
      Well, I think the progressive collapse theory is bullshit, but why don't you go ahead and explain how a 110 story building can collapse in 8.6 seconds without CD. If you think he's misrepresenting your theory, by all means, prove otherwise. But NIST had to fudge their simulations to get it to work so I don't think you'll do any better. Please let me know if you do, though.

      Also, I'd be interested to know why it took so long to collapse after impact.

    29. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      Well, if you've read it and understood it, you could quote it and save my computer the RAM space needed to open a PPT file.

      Not to mention that your link doesn't contain any link to the actial PPT file. Smooth move, there, buddy.

      Again, you claim to understand this issue: why would a progressive collapse go floor by floor? Answer the question.

    30. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Apuleius · · Score: 1

      I don't have to explain why it collapsed in 8.6 seconds. Unlike you morons, I looked at the video clips and know that IT DID NOT COLLAPSE AT 8.6 SECONDS.

      I looked at the seismo records. I listened to the audio. It took 20 seconds for the collapse to complete.

      Christ on a fucking crutch. Go to Youtube and see for yourself.

    31. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by mykdavies · · Score: 1

      The NIST FAQ on this addresses a number of these points directly: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.ht m

      --
      The world has changed and we all have become metal men.
    32. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Again, you claim to understand this issue: why would a progressive collapse go floor by floor? Answer the question.

      He's not going to. He's got too much of his world view invested in the existence of absurd conspiracy theories - acknowleging the frailty/loopiness of his position now would seriously damage his self esteem. He cites the basis of his belief on this subject exactly like some others cite the bible... and demanding that he personally convey, in his own words, the actual underpinnings of his belief, it all sort of comes apart. One might even say that it collapses in fewer seconds than he'd otherwise wish.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    33. Re:Just keeping up with the US press... by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Compared to, say, a mass murder plot that would involve hundreds of people at least...

      I think just referencing a cartoon can save you from explaining all of this to conspiracy nuts.

  18. Uh... "Forensic Analysis" my foot by blackdefiance · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So this program does what now? If I look at the images in the article, I'd interpret them as showing the dude's *beard* was added afterwards. That's some serious pixar-render-farm shit that I doubt they're doing in a cave in Pakistan.

    1. Re:Uh... "Forensic Analysis" my foot by Hays · · Score: 3, Informative

      Mod parent up.

      Take off your tin-foil hats long enough to ask how accurate this "forensic analysis" is. Has it been independently verified? Tested with known manipulated videos? The outputs of the forensic analysis don't even look reasonable for these segments.

      There has been some real (peer reviewed) research on detecting digital forgeries by Dr. Hany Farid and his lab at Dartmouth:
      http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~farid/research/tamper ing.html

    2. Re:Uh... "Forensic Analysis" my foot by SpinyNorman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I gotta say that it looks like it's just highlighting the areas of high spatial frequency (i.e. sharp lines), which is where you'd expect the differences to be if you save at a lower quality JPEG level and compare to the original (which is what the article says it's doing). The way JPEG compression works is by throwing away high frequency information away - the lower quality you choose the more is thrown away.

      Hi beard is showing up because it's a mass of fine lines (high freq. info), ditto the text.

    3. Re:Uh... "Forensic Analysis" my foot by mzs · · Score: 1

      Bingo! Also the books have a mass of lines so that is suspect as well as to whether it was added. There are blown highlights on the books as well that match the lighting on the face. If the books were a bit closer they may have been in shadow.

    4. Re:Uh... "Forensic Analysis" my foot by ben+there... · · Score: 1

      There has been some real (peer reviewed) research on detecting digital forgeries by Dr. Hany Farid and his lab at Dartmouth:
      http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~farid/research/tamper ing.html Oh, you mean the dude he thanks in his presentation? (warning: 32 MB PDF. I'll save you the 2 min wait. Here's a screenshot.)

  19. Surprise! by cyberjock1980 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Are we supposed to be shocked? The less 'real' information that is in the video, the less 'real' information that we can gather about them. Because now we're having to figure out which information is real and which information is fake. What about when the fake information isn't caught, and then taken as being real? We go on a wild goose chase wasting time and resources while they laugh at us. If they could CGI the whole thing and air it and it look realistic, they'd do it in a second. Next thing you know the CIA is looking for an imaginary mountain that only exists in the land of make believe.

    It is the entire goal of the terrorists to wear us down to the point where we can no longer maintain ourselves. That's all this game is about now. Just like how communism was defeated in the 80s. We wore down their resources till they couldn't keep up. They are using cheap and easy methods of doing things that costs us ALOT more money just to stay 1/2 a step ahead. Because we are a country and are bound by the ethics of war and Geneva conventions, we are totally screwed. The terrorists are an invisible enemy where they aren't accountable by any ethics. Can you really hold an invisible person accountable for their actions?

    Until the terrorists screw up BIGTIME(ie, nuclear bomb or VERY SIGNIFICANT DISASTER) this is gonna keep going. If the terrorists dropped a nuclear bomb or even a dirty bomb, the world would begin to unite against them alot more. At least, if the elected officials wanted to stay in office they'd have to take a proactive stance against this 'force' that just used a nuclear weapon. The public outcry from it alone would force this effect out of many countries.

    1. Re:Surprise! by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I believe a lot of people would like to question you on your belief that America has acted ethically in the Middle East within the last decade or so.

      America never went to war with communism, it never beat communism, it went to war with Russia, communism much like terror isn't a real thing made of matter, you cannot shoot an ideal, only people who use that ideal to represent themselves (be it true or false).

      I'm sorry to say but you seem to act like these people are pure unrefined evil and just want to destroy America. They aren't some inhuman savage monster, they are people with ideals (no matter how corrupt YOU or I may see them) and they are standing up to America in the only way they can. You can bet if someone invaded America in 50 years time and America no longer had the military power to fight "the right way" *ahem* then they would use the exact same tactics and skills. Not to mention it was America who taught these groups to fight in the first place. They used these people and then dropped them like a bad habit, they aren't raving madmen as you portray them, but nor are they heroic freedom fighters either, they are people living their lives how they see best. Judge them how you wish, but don't forget they are human beings just like we are.

      --
      I like muppets.
    2. Re:Surprise! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "They are using cheap and easy methods of doing things that costs us ALOT more money just to stay 1/2 a step ahead. "

      We're staying 1/2 a step ahead? I thought they were making the running - we've been several steps behind them for many years, and with Iraq we're going in the wrong direction!

      If you want any proof of this, Google for assertions that Iran provided us with all the faked evidence we needed to start the war on terror. They have been driving the whole thing, and are likely to end up with all of southern Iraq as a result.

      If you believe our side's propoganda, I have a bridge in Minneapolis I'd like to sell you...!!

    3. Re:Surprise! by cyberjock1980 · · Score: 1

      I never implied we are acting ethically in the Middle East. I was only stating that we are held more responsible than the terrorists are. The terrorists killed how many people on 9-11? What if we dropped one of our MOAB bombs right in the middle of an Iraq mall killing just as many or more? We'd SO be condemned for our actions. But the terrorists doing it wouldn't get nearly as significant of a result. Sure the shock factor was there, but how many countries are with us now? If we wiped out an Iraq mall, it would be a bad mark that would haunt us for a VERY long time. The point i was trying to make was that as an entity that can be pointed at, we are held to a much higher standard than the terrorists. The line is easy to draw in the sand for the U.S. We have definite borders, we have a definite leader and so on. The terrorists on the other hand live in secrecy. They hide in the shadows like ninjas waiting for the best time to strike.

      I don't see them as inhumane monsters. I will say that quite a few are. But I'd say that the majority think they are fighting for a good cause, and that's a big problem we have to face. Being ex-military myself, I think I fought for a good cause. But who is 'right'?

      -There is no right or wrong in war. Only those left standing and those that are dead. -Me

    4. Re:Surprise! by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1, Troll

      America is held to standards? Only guys to ever use Nuclear bombs on cities can't exactly act like saints after it you know.

      And America has killed more civilians in Iraq and Afganistan than died in 9/11. Sorry to break it to you but it's true, you guys killed a lot of people and don't get villianised for it.

      And some would argue on your standards again. I fail to see how "lets invade another country based on lies" is having higher standards, if anything I would say lower standards because at least these guys believe they are doing the right thing, not doing illegal stuff and then trying to cover their tracks.

      If you were in the military then you also know some psychos were fighting with you too, people who went there just to kill people. We all know they are out there and can get in the military. So both sides have villians.

      And I don't agree with no right or wrong in war. Raping and looting even in war is wrong, you can take the morale high ground and come out alive, but you can also come out dead from it. It's a balance of the two that makes the difference and even the noblest person can be a villian if he's manipulated right or vice versa. Living doesn't make you right, it just means you get to take another stab at the morale compass.

      --
      I like muppets.
    5. Re:Surprise! by siddesu · · Score: 1

      Heh, I also enjoy the occasional Eric Frank Russel or Tom Clancy fiction, but it is called _fiction_ for a reason. Terrorists have as much a chance of building a nuke as they do of 'wearing out' the Western world, and these chances are nil.

      Building nukes is a complex engineering task, which requires a lot of finely made stuff in large quantities, and a lot of smart people working together. Both ingredients require enormous amount of money to maintain, and a large industrial base and significant military to guard it. You can't hide all that in a hut in a village in Lebanon, nor can you steal all the parts from retired East Germans ... not without a government behind you.

      As for the 'wearing out' ... well, 'wearing out' the Western world may happen only in the same way 'wearing out' the Communist world happened. The biggest ingredient in the communist 'wear out' were the economic inefficiencies built into the system. They alone guaranteed that the system would collapse in time, and so it did. Even the simple fact that the collapse came unexpected by all economic, military and intelligence experts should strongly suggest to you that it was unplanned. So, unless the terrorists can manage to install such inefficiencies in the Western world (say, for example, by scaring people into voting for a government that will put the economy of the West on Marxist footing) I don't see the West collapsing very soon.

    6. Re:Surprise! by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      I was only stating that we are held more responsible than the terrorists are. The terrorists killed how many people on 9-11?

      That's complete and utter BS. Immediately following 9/11, the entire world was behind the US. When operations began in Afghanistan, a place well known to harbour terrorists, the world was behind the US (pity the US couldn't return the favour, instead shifting focus and leaving countries like Canada to clean up their mess). It was only in the sudden, unfounded shift of focus to Iraq that the US lost all credibility and support of other nations, as they proceeded to browbeat the UN (and their own people) with false and inaccurate information in order to justify an invasion that was, at best, tangential to the original goal of fighting terrorism in the Middle East.

      Besides, don't you think the US *should* be held to a higher standard? Or do you really believe the US shouldn't be expected to behave better than the terrorists they're purporting to fight?

    7. Re:Surprise! by IBBoard · · Score: 1

      America wasn't even really at war with Russia/the Soviet Union. It was at Cold War with them, but there was little direct conflict.

      Cuba: Russia supplied items to Cuba, America got upset and worried, no direct conflict.
      Korea: Each nation supported one half of the country, ended up leaving it split.
      Vietnam: Again, support from each side, this time the Americans withdrew but it wasn't a Soviet victory directly.
      Afghanistan (the original one): America aided the local warlords against the Soviets. Mainly in the way of weapons and advisors, I believe. No direct conflict.
      Iraq-Iran: Russia and America took sides, no direct conflict.

      That's all I can remember from A Level history and personal research :)

      "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" - Me (based off someone I can't remember)

    8. Re:Surprise! by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "it went to war with Russia,"

      That ChiCom stuff in Asia was obviously a Soviet feint, and their success merely part of the diversion... :-p

      "I believe a lot of people would like to question you on your belief that America has acted ethically in the Middle East within the last decade or so."

      Ethics are a useful construct for internal, social use.. They are a liability in international action, which is why they are often ignored by highly successful nations!.
      The cultural war between Islam (successfully "Bolshevised" by Pan-Islamists) is awkward to wage for both sides. The best tool for both sides is destabilisation, but for the West the best outcomes would be fostered by schismatic and tribal violence within Islam. Since we will be accused of being unethical either way, we can dispense with ethics (toward the enemy) as expedient.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    9. Re:Surprise! by nagora · · Score: 1
      What if we dropped one of our MOAB bombs right in the middle of an Iraq mall killing just as many or more?

      Errr, but you already have many times over. Alright, you used smaller bombs to do it a bit at a time but really, if you'd just dropped one MOAB in a mall and went home the Iraqi people would count themselves lucky.

      And that's not even counting all the people Saddamm killed when the CIA were helping him round up his opponents. America's responsible for all those deaths too. Indeed, since they let Saddam loose in Iraq in the full knowledge that he was a murderer and a thug they're pretty well responsible for all the deaths he caused. Especially the ones where he used the WMD Rumsfeld supplied him with in return for promises that he'd only drop them on Iranians.

      We'd SO be condemned for our actions.

      You would and you are, and rightly so. Just as binLaden is, and rightly so. But the idea that America is and different from binLaden is hard to support, really. He's a nutter and America's just in it for the oil. Big fucking moral difference there.

      TWW

      --
      "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    10. Re:Surprise! by scuba0 · · Score: 1

      I hold the US at about the same level as the "terrorists". The US feeds them, trains them and then kills their familys, thats pretty straight how I see it. But then again, the terrorists use the civilians a lot more than the US does, even though the US hunts and bomb the crap out of them and counts them as combatants. Or how was it when the US bombed the red cross in Afghanistan??

    11. Re:Surprise! by servognome · · Score: 1

      That's all I can remember from A Level history and personal research :)
      You missed all the stuff in south/central america, and africa.
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    12. Re:Surprise! by IBBoard · · Score: 1

      I'm British, so we just covered the Cold War. I don't think South/Central America and Africa were part of the Cold War. Or if they were then they were even less closely related to Russia than some of the others.

    13. Re:Surprise! by PCM2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm sorry to say but you seem to act like these people are pure unrefined evil and just want to destroy America. They aren't some inhuman savage monster, they are people with ideals (no matter how corrupt YOU or I may see them) and they are standing up to America in the only way they can.

      That's an appropriately lefty, liberal way to look at it, but I take issue with this point.

      Look at the Taliban in Afghanistan. That wasn't about fighting back at America. That was about seizing power over an entire population. Yes, you could say that it was in the name of "ideals," but the truth is that people who seek power do it because they want the power, not the ideal.

      You see the same thing in Iraq right now, with the civil war. For a lot of the so-called insurgents, job #1 is not striking back at America. It's gaining control of Iraq. Will they go after the West after that? Probably. But to say that everything Arab extremists do in the Middle East is an understandable response to Western aggression is just silly.

      These are power games at work. The average citizens of Iraq are the ones caught in the middle. Yes, the U.S. has shamed itself in the region. But the Islamic agitators are no better.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    14. Re:Surprise! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "You can bet if someone invaded America in 50 years time and America no longer had the military power to fight "the right way" *ahem* then they would use the exact same tactics and skills."

      Define "the right way".

      If you mean the direct application of a large military force against another, well, we've been unable to do that before.

      If you mean limiting our targets to those with military value, while restricting the amount of damage we inflict on illegal (non-military, non-infrastructure) targets, well, then, you don;t understand the least thing about guerilla warfare.

      It is VERY easy to implement a geurilla-based fight where you limit yourself to militarily appropriate targets.

      In the ongoing thing we call terrorism today, the geurilla-based fighters ignore the Law of Armed Conflict, and very specifically target illegal, non-military targets for the purpose of creating fear amongst the civilian populace fo the opposing side.

      The reason terrorists are criminals is NOT that they oppose other sitting governments, it is that they ignore the Law of Armed Conflict. That distinction is the reason it is possible for us to have American Soliders/Sailors/Marines/Airmen legally prosecuting a fight that can be determined to have begun illegally. The grunts "in the trenches" are not legally liable for choosing to fight when and where ordered, they are legally liable for HOW they fight.

      If a US Marine is told to secure a building, and there is no military resistance, he should clear the building of non-combatants as quickly as possible, and then prevent them for re-entering. This presents minimal damage to the civilians who are present. Terrorists don't secure buildings, they blow portions of them up, while the non-combatants are going about their lives inside.

      If you don't understand that difference, well, I don't think I'm going to be able to provide enough education in this environment.

    15. Re:Surprise! by rhizome · · Score: 1

      The terrorists killed how many people on 9-11? What if we dropped one of our MOAB bombs right in the middle of an Iraq mall killing just as many or more? We'd SO be condemned for our actions. But the terrorists doing it wouldn't get nearly as significant of a result.

      So you're saying that the employees and the companies in the World Trade Center symbolize the same thing as 3000 people in an Iraqi mall in 2007? Or maybe 3000 people are 3000 people no matter where they're killed?

      --
      When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
    16. Re:Surprise! by servognome · · Score: 1

      I don't think South/Central America and Africa were part of the Cold War. Or if they were then they were even less closely related to Russia than some of the others.
      There were plenty of pro- and anti- communist revolutions, rebellions, movements etc. Do a little research for example on Grenada and Nicaragua
      The key feature of the cold war was superpower finanical & advisory intervention in 3rd world affairs around the world
      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    17. Re:Surprise! by cdrguru · · Score: 1
      He's a nutter and America's just in it for the oil. Big fucking moral difference there.

      So where is the oil? How many US soldiers are guarding oil fields? How many tankers have left Iraq for the US? Where is the US $0.39 gasoline that we should have now with all that oil? After all, there is no national authority in Iraq to stop us from taking all the oil there is, right? We are illegally "occupying" Iraq and controlling everything there, right?

      SO WHERE IS THE OIL?


      It isn't about the oil. Only a complete brainwasted idiot still thinks it is about the oil. Zero oil has come out of Iraq since the first day troops landed in Iraq.

    18. Re:Surprise! by ozphx · · Score: 1

      For a lot of the so-called insurgents, job #1 is not striking back at America. It's gaining control of Iraq.


      Funnily enough, its their country and they want it back. Asstard.
      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    19. Re:Surprise! by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Funnily enough, its their country and they want it back. Asstard.


      OK smart guy, so which ones should get it? Hint: Where do the Kurds fit in?

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    20. Re:Surprise! by ozphx · · Score: 1

      OK smart guy, so which ones should get it? Hint: Where do the Kurds fit in?


      Hint: The UN has a security council for dealing with this sort of thing.

      Hint: The US is not the world's sherrif, despite you acting like a bunch of cowboys.

      Perhaps they should just stay the fuck out of other peoples affairs, instead of rolling up on peoples doorstep in tanks, yelling "We're gonna free the shit out of youse. YEEHAW".
      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
  20. Quote BBC Lighting Director by Silver+Sloth · · Score: 1

    Are we lighting 'for' or 'against'? Mind you, I wasn't there so maybe the story was 'enhanced'.
    --
    init 11 - for when you need that edge.
  21. I don't think so .. by rs232 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "There was a report several years ago that the US had used the rock outcroppings behind Osama in one of his videos to attempt to locate him. I wonder if some of these modifications are made to make locating them more difficult?"

    He could have been taken when the CIA met with Bin Landin at the American Hospital two months before 9/11 or when the FBI met with Bin Landin in California in 1986.

    was: Re:Done for their safety?

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
    1. Re:I don't think so .. by db32 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The authorties have been alerted that you did not indeed drink the kool-aid. America has always been at war with Saddam and Bin Laden, to suggest that they were ever our allies is unpatriotic. You must hate freedom! Now if we could just find a way to convince the Iraqis to forget that we uhm "didn't" support Saddam then maybe they would be more happy that we got rid of him for them.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    2. Re:I don't think so .. by po_boy · · Score: 1

      He could have been taken when the CIA met with Bin Landin at the American Hospital two months before 9/11 or when the FBI met with Bin Landin in California in 1986.


      Are you talking about Michael Bin Landon?
    3. Re:I don't think so .. by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

      Is that the guy who starred in such classic TV shows as Little Cave in the Desert and Highway to 72 Virgins?

      --
      Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
  22. is this image doctored? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:is this image doctored? by mr_mischief · · Score: 2, Funny

      Of course it's doctored. Everyone knows that ceremony takes place at dawn. Sheesh. ;-)

  23. Stego by zentinal · · Score: 1

    After reading TFA I didn't see any mention of any steganographic analysis. To me, that's the juicy stuff. This may be off topic, but, has anyone (publically) been doing stego analysis on these videos?

    1. Re:Stego by hoggoth · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, the NSA has done significant steganographic analysis of the videos.
      They found the hidden subtext: 'BUY MORE OVALTINE'

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    2. Re:Stego by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Osama Bin Ladin loves the rich, chocolaty taste of Ovaltine!

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  24. Damn subtitles! by dark-br · · Score: 4, Funny

    So he doesn't have those subtitles in real life? Crap, that means the whole strategy to finding him will have to be changed once again!

  25. Proves what we already suspected? by fantomas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... that this "global terrorist organisation" that George Bush and Tony Blair have imagined after watching too many James Bond movies is nothing more than a loosely connected rabble of disaffected extremists who've picked a brand name to make themselves seem bigger and more scary?

    Far from some Spielberg-like ILM production house operating in Dr. Evil's secret volcano (see, err, heck I've forgotten which Bond movie, the one with Little Nellie), actually the videos are knocked up by a couple of spotty radicalised teenagers in the backroom of an internet cafe in downtown Kabul. Who in return get to hang out with a bunch of extremists who tell them they are doing vital work, that Western civilisation is about to crumble into the sea as a result, let them fire off a few rounds from a couple of AK47s in the hills and tell them that they are part of the gang now. We just put up with London Underground taking the litter bins out and asking us to take our rubbish home with us.

    Forgive the cynicism but after the British authorities declared the country I'm in (the UK) to be on it's "most critical" alert status after a couple of idiots drove a flaming vehicle into a pillar in Glasgow airport, staggered out on fire and promptly got punched out by passers by and off duty coppers, the level of hype is starting to get wearing. We've just finished with 40 years of the IRA blowing up chunks of our country and killing rather a lot of people and nobody felt the need to issue "most critical" warnings then.

    1. Re:Proves what we already suspected? by Paladin144 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      But, but... but... what if some ignorant American calls you a "conspiracy theorist" for being able to see through the lies? How will you sleep at night?!

      For anybody who doesn't know what fantomas is alluding to in the post above, I urge you to download and watch the excellent BBC program The Power of Nightmares. It turns out that if you actually look closely at al Qaeda the whole thing unravels. OBL and Zawahiri are a bunch of losers, complete phonies and probably employed by the CIA and/or MI6.

      Everybody knows Bin Laden worked for the CIA (through the Pakistani ISI proxy) during the 80's during the fight against the Soviets. Nobody seems to know when he stopped working for them. .... IF he stopped working for them.

    2. Re:Proves what we already suspected? by Firefly1 · · Score: 1

      Far from some Spielberg-like ILM production house operating in Dr. Evil's secret volcano (see, err, heck I've forgotten which Bond movie, the one with Little Nellie)
      That would be You Only Live Twice . Kudos for remembering 'Little Nellie', by the way. Flamethrowers, rockets, and aerial mines, oh my.
      --
      - White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
    3. Re:Proves what we already suspected? by FrostedWheat · · Score: 1

      I was quite sickened by the whole "highest alert" crap. They took every opportunity to repeat it over and over again, as if it meant anything to anyone. Shame on the BBC for buying into it.

    4. Re:Proves what we already suspected? by Qrlx · · Score: 1

      We've just finished with 40 years of the IRA blowing up chunks of our country and killing rather a lot of people and nobody felt the need to issue "most critical" warnings then.
      A crucial difference is that the IRA are white, english-speaking guys who even read the same holy book as you. Blokes you might sit next to and have a pint with. Not at all like the foreign threat of "Al Qaeda."

      Hmmm, the IRA issued their own "critial warning" with the Bishopsgate bombing. Can you imagine if that bomb had gone off on a weekday?

  26. No, no, the warning refers to gov. credibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you feel safer since the war on terror? No? Well, neither did I, especially after discovering that that justified killing an innocent person on the tube. Neither did I when I started reading through, for instance, the RIP Act. Nor was I impressed with the arguments behind the ID card scam, sorry, scheme.

    And having cameras follow you everywhere so some technical leech can tap into that and monitor any citizen isn't healthy either because it has been proven by a Dutch Uni survey that such a camera does NOT reduce the crime rate and only marginally the % of cases solved.

    But none of the above would have had a chance if the Sun faithful weren't kept scared of their own shadow..

    Yeah, I'm cynical. I didn't stop thinking, which is probably by now a criminal offense in itself..

  27. They also use outlook for email.... by antifoidulus · · Score: 3, Funny

    During a video with Adam Gadahn I almost bust a gut laughing as a Microsoft Outlook email notification box popped up in the bottom right hand corner of the screen. I mean come on guys, you expect me to take you seriously but you use Outlook? Down with America, but we love the products their mega-corporations produce!

    1. Re:They also use outlook for email.... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      I mean come on guys, you expect me to take you seriously but you use Outlook? Down with America, but we love the products their mega-corporations produce!

      No man, they hate MS! It's just that thanks to vendor lock-in and the proprietary Exchange protocols, they have to use Outlook. Why do you think they're so pissed at us?

      I don't want to start any conspiracy theories... But it was on Sept. 6th 2001 that the DoJ announced that they would no longer be pursuing the breakup of Microsoft. Sept 11th, al Qaeda attacks. Coincidence? You decide (but the answer is no).

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  28. If you can't trust the terrorists... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But if you can't trust the terrorists, then who can you trust?

  29. Re:But Al-Qaeda doesn't exist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you get out much? You sound like a nutcase conspiracy theorist who hasn't left his house in years.

  30. Re:But Al-Qaeda doesn't exist... by Carewolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While it is true that Al-Qaeda was originally a US invention with little base in reality, many organizations has since adapted the name and the cause, creating a real version of the US invented nightmare. Bin Laden may not have anything to do with these organizations, and the organizations nothing to do with each other, but it is a global movement and cause now.

  31. Re:Seriously...they needed to do image forensics?? by IBBoard · · Score: 1

    My thoughts exactly. You can see around the guys turban in the first picture that it looks like a blue-screen equivalent.

    Having said that, it did still supposedly pick up on the fact that the text had been added after the banner. So even if the banner was created in a 3D app then the tool can (assuming it is correct) identify what was added later/with different compression ratios.

  32. CIA and alien technology by sbate · · Score: 1, Funny

    Osama is actually a grey. On his planet they crash planes into buildings for fun he was just having a party and things got out of hand.

    --
    Added Pressly: "Oh, and by the way, milk is nothing but liquid meat."
    1. Re:CIA and alien technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of those alleged arab pilots could fly worth squat, not even single engine cessnas, and this is by the governments own quite reluctant admission, and something they first denied any knowledge of, but it slipped out. No one rational who is a pilot thinks they flew those airliners cross country at high speed and navigated exactly to where they wanted to go, including those last minute jinks the planes pulled. Those planes might have had arab hijacker patsies in them,expendable idiots who thought something else was going to happen, but those planes were REMOTE CONTROLLED INTO THE BUILDINGS. The plane in Pennsylvania was shot down on purpose because the poor victims actually found out the plane was being flown with no one piloting it, so the order was given to waste it-the fucking debris from the rocket hit was 7-8 miles away from the crash site, and a ton of witnesses reported both another plane and hearing the explosion. Fact. Deal.

      9-11 is part of the entire coup that has happened, and the perps are the goofballs inside PNAC and AIPAC, or the controllers above them. They even said in advance the first excuse they had they were going into Iraq and take over for a "new american century", or try to any way, if they had a "new pearl harbor" that would "rally the nation". It happened, they got it eventually, and they "let's roll!"ed over there-but too much stuff has come out now, they are lying about most of the events, we have found out for sure about some of the major lies, others we only have quite strong circumstantial evidence for, but in the gestalt-it was an inside job, and some of the ones involved "danced" about it, then got quietly shipped back to Israel, leaving behind moving vans with traces of explosive residue, the same sort of stuff needed for cutting charges. And to this day, not one official person will name the company that was in the twin towers a few weeks before the attack who were shutting off the power to entire floors to do "maintenance". Not the name of the company, no videos of them from the surveillence cams, no names, no explanation of what this so called "maintenance" was, and coincidently, the same floors that looked like they blew out in the publicly available vids right before the collapse started.

      In short, you have to be BEYOND a mouth breathing drooling moron to believe the government's so called explanation of 9-11.

      There's a rogue pack of beyond the law blood thirsty murderers and traitors buried inside the governmental military/industrial complex, and they have way too many willing order followers to do their bidding, plus mercenaries who just don't care if the price is right. At most it might have taken a few dozen people to pull this off, one crew to wire the planes (the tech has existed for decades to do this), one crew to wire the buildings (the tech has existed for decades to do this), and then the coordinators who would have compartmentalized things. And that is a controllable number as regards direct leaks, especially when any of the potential leakers realize exactly what getting caught blabbing would mean.

  33. quick n' dirty by sonoronos · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, this technique only works if the "original" image edited was formed using a lossy image compression algorithm. Although it works for most casual cases of manipulation, people who are really quite clever can circumvent the analysis.

    It becomes a little easier if the people who are editing the photographs are the ones that are taking them also - shooting base material in a lossless compression algorithm like RAW or TIF.

    My personal opinion is that this is a good "quick and dirty" test for image manipulation, but should not be used as a certification for un-retouched images.

  34. http://www.myspace.com/osamabinladen by athloi · · Score: 1

    Yep, he really does look 14/f in that picture. I'm sure it's not fake.

    1. Re:http://www.myspace.com/osamabinladen by jamstar7 · · Score: 1
      Kinda emo, if you ask me. And that music...

      Yeah, he's really a 14/f cunningly hiding out as a 55/m pedo...

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  35. The Plot Thickens... by starman71taylor · · Score: 0

    Now before you tinfoil hat rejected-debunker-super-sleuths-know-it-all-yuppie -hipster-techno types say one goddamn thing, read the article.
    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/03 0807_reverses_stance.htm

  36. I KNEW it! by BeProf · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Bin Laden is hiding at the same sound studio where they filmed the Apollo Moon Landings!

    Cue the Alex Jones crowd in 5... 4... 3...

    --
    You are attempting to read sigs. Cancel or Allow?
  37. He should do Fox news next by Dan667 · · Score: 1

    I bet he would need 10 years to investigate all the tampering they have done in the last 6 months to "news" images.

    1. Re:He should do Fox news next by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fox doesn't bother to do image alteration, they just flat out lie. A typical example is when they consistently label corrupt politicians as Democrats rather then Republicans. See http://www.allthingsdemocrat.com/2007/07/24/fox-ne ws-convenient-mislabeling-of-errant-gopers-as-demo crats/ for specific examples. And yes it is a pro-Democratic site. Do you expect Fox or the WSW or most other MSM media to report this kind of slime? Although, I do have to point out that Keith Oberman tracks this kind of abuse.

  38. Hanlon's Razor by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, I'd guess there's also a bit of a case of Hanlon's Razor: "Don't attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    There was this whine a long time ago on The Register, by an (ex) professional media photograph. Apparently his job was about to go the way of the dodo, because more and more newspapers were trying to cut costs by just buying images for almost nothing from either amateurs on the web, or from agencies selling thousands of photos for pennies. (And don't think those send photographers all over the globe to take photos after each and every event, because that would cost a lot more.)

    In other words: it's becoming little more than clip art. If you're writing an article about Baghdad, you find the cheapest picture claiming to be from Baghdad, and put it on the page. If you're writing about Al Qaeda, you do the same with a pic claiming to have anything to do with Al Qaeda. Etc.

    'Course, especially with pictures selected off Photocommunity and the like, for a couple of bucks, you never know what you're _really_ getting. It could be that someone photographed the demolition of an old mall in Elbonia and is hawking it as the aftermath of the tsunami in East Bumfuckistan. How would you know? (And probably a better question is: would they even care, if they knew?)

    Briefly, it doesn't have to be manipulation. Or if it is, it doesn't have to be by the newspaper. If a joker posted that image as proof of his l33t photoshop skills, or if such a photos-by-the-dozen agency took a shortcut and photoshopped a photo just so they could sell something about an event... well, chances are the newspaper staff wouldn't even know.

    I guess it's just what this general craze to reduce costs leads to. A lot of time the obvious way to reduce costs is to reduce quality. In this case, also add total lack of quality control, since they don't actually have someone there who could check if things are like in the photo. You can expect a lot of junk to go through undetected.

    And, btw, if you thought only the photos were fake, you'd be surprised how many of the _articles_ are bogus stuff written by a PR agency and disguised as news.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Hanlon's Razor by itchy92 · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...and is hawking it as the aftermath of the tsunami in East Bumfuckistan. How would you know?

      Well, that's easy: East Bumfuckistan isn't coastal. You're thinking of West Bumfuckistan.

      --
      Slashdot: News for nerds. Stuff tha-- MICRO$OFT IS THE DEVIL!!1
    2. Re:Hanlon's Razor by doom · · Score: 1

      Moraelin wrote:

      Well, I'd guess there's also a bit of a case of Hanlon's Razor: "Don't attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

      "Oh damn! My gun went off by mistake. Sorry about that. It was an accident. Really."

  39. Imbedded image encryption by testpoint · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What is the feasibility of an encryption partnership between camera, flash memory and photo-editing companies?

    The basic idea would be to provide public-key encryption imbedded in the original image. Photos submitted for publication could then provide the original encryption key from either the camera or memory to verify authenticity. Altered photos would no longer match the encryption key.

    1. Re:Imbedded image encryption by neumayr · · Score: 1

      The point being? Photographs are inherently editable, and that's a feature, not a bug.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    2. Re:Imbedded image encryption by testpoint · · Score: 1

      The point being that unaltered photos could prove they were unaltered by asymmetric cryptography.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_key_encryption
      Altered photos would no longer have keys that match the public key and could be easily detected.

      Photo editing would be unrestricted, but if a photo was edited, its value for forensics, journalism, insurance, etc. would be questionable.

    3. Re:Imbedded image encryption by neumayr · · Score: 1

      there might be some use for things like forensics, but not journalism. pictures, especially the ones meant to be published, are edited in some form, and it makes sense to do so. but in your scheme, any alteration of the picture would invalidate it, there wouldn't be a difference between some cropping and gamma correction and actual forgery.

      no cryptographically signed pictures for me, thank you very much.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
  40. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  41. This **WAS** video. by smitth1276 · · Score: 1

    These weren't still images... the "images" in question were videos.

  42. Re:OFFTOPIC AND IRRELEVANT by Paladin144 · · Score: 1
    Nice of you to ignore his first link -- you know, the one that was 2 months before 9/11, while Osama was wanted for the bombing of the U.S. Cole and other crimes.

    I don't think the CIA would have to be psychic to know what was about to go down. Google "Tim Osman" if you want to learn more about bin Laden's CIA-linked activities.

  43. WTF? by smitth1276 · · Score: 1

    Dude, that was dumb. What the hell are you talking about?

    1. Re:WTF? by PeelBoy · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I'm sure he read somewhere in the NY Times that all southerners are bible-thumping idiots. How will we ever convince this uninformed 'true believer' otherwise? He's obviously not intelligent enough to think for him self.

  44. Did you doubt any of it went through post? by daveywest · · Score: 1

    I love it when the propoganda video is broadcast and the guy speaking talks about something that happened three to six months ago. The news cite these bits as proof that it is recent video. Seriously, my local news channel can take live video; add all the fancy graphics and send it out to the world in real time. Of course they are using this medium to transmit covert messages to operatives globally. It's more effective than buying a classified in the Washington Post.

  45. Al-Qaeda Lies! by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    Al-Qaeda lies. Wow, that's news.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  46. Re:But Al-Qaeda doesn't exist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    And you sound like a typical ad-hominem slinging ignoramus.

    I suggest you check out the BBC's excellent "The Power of Nightmares", which "argues that the threat of radical Islamism as a massive, sinister organised force of destruction, specifically in the form of al-Qaeda, is in fact a myth perpetrated by politicians in many countries -- and particularly American Neo-Conservatives -- in an attempt to unite and inspire their people following the failure of earlier, more utopian ideologies."

    Google Video: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3.

    Here is a summary of the film's main arguments.

  47. All the Images are Disinfo / PsyOps by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Created so that you hate Emmanuel Goldstein.

    They are the product of western "intelligence agencies" - which invented Al-CIAda for their own purposes, out of their own semi-retired ant-soviet "assets" in the late 90's.

    War on terror? Keep on paying for that war against yourself! Meanwhile ,your bridges collapse under your feet and your cities drown - and your phone is tapped.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
    1. Re:All the Images are Disinfo / PsyOps by Deskpoet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As I write this, your post has been modded down to -1, Troll. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with moderation here on Slashdot. It's becoming almost worthless....

      All of which is to say: you're absolutely right. Photoshop has been around and available to just about anyone for nearly 20 years. Beyond the fallacy of the image, why anyone would look at a print of any kind, regardless of source, and proclaim it to be "real" is beyond me. Here, the underlying premise is those Evil Arabs are doing it--while airbrushed photo ops here are glorious, real exchanges of meaning without a hint of "evil" to be seen. Yes, it's flag-waving at its finest, but worse, it shows how gullible people are today. And that you were modded so far down for recognizing this just shows how *angry* those gullible people are when their precious illusions are called into question.....

      --
      "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws."--Tacitus, The Histories
    2. Re:All the Images are Disinfo / PsyOps by Maelwryth · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      My first thought was why would they do this as well. It is far more likely to have been western interests that doctored the images. It is the same mindset as people who rail against Bush. They completely miss the point that Bush was put there for that reason so people wouldn't look behind the scene's at those controlling the country.

      --
      I reserve the write to mangle english.
    3. Re:All the Images are Disinfo / PsyOps by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I agree 100%. All the downmods in this subthread have been punitive, "I disagree" mods. There's nothing at all low-quality about those posts; the mods are merely expressing naive disagreement with the points made in them. Slashdot moderation is crap. You have to read at -1 to get the benefits of your fellow member's input.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  48. Next up... by coast215 · · Score: 1

    Now that Al-Qaeda knows photoshop, does this mean instead of doctored pictures of topless celebs going around the internet that we are now going to be seeing doctored photos of celebs completely covered?

  49. Re:But Al-Qaeda doesn't exist... by starman71taylor · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I respect your assertion but I'd ask for facts as to the statement. Who knows this to be the case? I'm asking for
    REAL documented facts here and I'm not being a "slashdotter" on this. From all I've seen it would be hard
    to even prove that "Al-Qaeda" is even a real movement at all. There does exist a huge resentment for
    U.S. foreign policy among the Middle East crowd, but who could blame them at this point? Hell
    the U.S. still can't back up that 9-11 was done by the so called hijackers. Stolen passports, dancing
    Israeli's filming it. The whole thing and cause for these wars is suspect.

  50. Insighful?? No. by asphaltjesus · · Score: 1

    While you start with a reasonably insightful comment that's been true for decades, it's the second and third paragraphs that are very disturbing.

    It is the entire goal of the terrorists...

    Without straying too much off topic, you have clearly been drinking too much of the U.S. Government's punch. The U.S. Government historically doctors/spins media to meet their end goal. Every government does.

    I urge you to examine the historical foreign policy record on the issue. It is hard to avoid coming up with a non-specific conclusion where this is a consequence of decades of U.S. foreign policy.

    It's a hell of a lot less spooky and evil than you and the unfortunate individuals modding you insightful have been lead to believe.

    --
    Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
  51. Re:Uh... "Forensic Analysis" my foot -- Agreed. by goodmanj · · Score: 1

    Parent of this post has it exactly right: this "forensic analysis" is bull.

    The article's pretty clear on what the "analysis" does: it adds a little bit of noise ("static") to a JPEG, re-compresses it, then takes the difference between the original photo and the noisy version. JPEG tends to smooth out slight variations in large blocks of color and concentrate on accurately representing sharp edges and transitions, so the largest differences will be in high-contrast "edgy" areas: text, bookshelves, beards, and the edges of tables, lampshades, etc.

    And you see that, manipulation or no, that's exactly what the analysis technique is picking up. The "researcher" has gone a long way to invent the high-pass filter. Congratulations.

  52. Oh no! by Bemopolis · · Score: 1

    Al-Qaeda has Weapons of Mass Media!

    --
    "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
  53. Over analyzing? by DeadboltX · · Score: 0

    But after conducting his error analysis Krawetz was able to determine that al-Zawahiri's image was superimposed in front of the background -- and was most likely videotaped in front of a black sheet."

    I could tell this just by looking at it; who couldn't?

  54. Osama bin Laden has been shopping his pic by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 2, Funny

    After weeks of analysis and consulting with experts I've found that all images of Osama bin Laden have been digitally altered to hide his identity. Here is what he really looks like.

    --
    It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    1. Re:Osama bin Laden has been shopping his pic by kickdown · · Score: 1

      Mod parent down! He blinded me!

      --
      Continuous positive slashdot karma since... uh, maybe next year.
  55. Um... So What. by rnturn · · Score: 1

    How the heck does this important revelation improve the chances of catching any of these guys? So what if they use photo editing software to add captions before they release their videos/photos. Will it make it easier to capture them knowing that they edit their messages before sending them off to Al Jazeera?

    Seems to me that some tax money was completely wasted analyzing these videos/images. Doesn't surprise me, though.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  56. what's next? by jafac · · Score: 3, Funny

    LOLJIHADIS?

    --

    These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    1. Re:what's next? by markbt73 · · Score: 1

      I'm in ur airports, plottin ur demise... Newklear bomb, I has it... I can has Sharia law? (did I forget any?)

      --
      "Oh boy! Are we going to try something dangerous?"
  57. Maybe ... by PPH · · Score: 2, Funny

    ... they lifted his image from video of his stint guest hosting The View.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  58. Won't work by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It won't work. If just having the means to prove something were actually enough to convince the faithful... well, how do you explain the southern USA?

    It's not just a jab at the fine bible-thumping guys and gals down there, though. It happens the same everywhere. Europe had its own counter-enlightenment movement, waaaay back. As in, a couple of centuries back. That's really what happens when you assault someone's beliefs hard enough: he'll just switch to block-head mode.

    If it's truly a believer you don't just have to push hard enough until his defenses crumble and he goes, "omg, I've been blind for so long, I've seen the light now." It's more like the Dune shields: the harder you push, the more resistance you get. And if you're doing an all out fast assault, expect to meet a (mental) immovable wall. And more than a good dose of hostility. It'll get nowhere.

    You have to go slowly and nicely if you want to get anywhere.

    (The same applies to culture, to some extent, btw. If you try to change a culture at gun point, expect a lot of resistance, and when it changes it will be in the direction you don't expect. It's a bit like trying to twist a gyroscope.)

    Plus, humans generally can act... well, like small children. If they like you, they'll believe every word you say, and if they dislike you, they'll try to spite you and contradict you.

    The rise of fundamentalist islamism can be traced mostly to the above two factors. The middle east has been shafted _hard_ by the western powers and partially by Israel. So a lot of people rallied around those waving a "fuck the West!" banner. Add to that a lot of (perceived) sneering and outright hostility to their religion, and they'll just rally harder to defend it.

    It's just human nature, and the west did the same in similar situations.

    And the lack of dialog sure doesn't help either. Each time someone there actually tries to say what _is_ their problem, the west goes "la la la, I'm not hearing anything" or "they're probably rambling about their false god or something." It's the perfect recipe to keep the hostility going.

    At any rate, IMHO just adding more force to that already disastrous recipe won't do any good. You may think that just giving them more proof that you're right and they're wrong is just what's needed to finally make their mental defenses crumble, but see what I've said before: it's IMHO already at the point where increasing the pressure just increases the resistance.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Won't work by bvimo · · Score: 1

      I wish I had some mod points left.

      --
      In either case, here at Microsoft, we feel standards are important. And we have fun, too. Doug Mahugh, Microsoft
    2. Re:Won't work by jhol13 · · Score: 1

      You may think that just giving them more proof that you're right and they're wrong is just what's needed The biggest problem is that "you" are not (necessarily/always) right. The attack to Iraq was not a right thing to do, at least not for the given reasons. No amount of proof (and I do not refer to the lies Whitehouse has given) is going to change that.

      I agree that the lack of dialog is just plain childish.
    3. Re:Won't work by glitch23 · · Score: 0

      It won't work. If just having the means to prove something were actually enough to convince the faithful... well, how do you explain the southern USA?

      Just because you think you have the means to prove something (and why wouldn't you think that with your agenda?) doesn't mean the faithful agree. They will be skeptical of those who do not share in their beliefs, especially those who try to change their beliefs.

      --
      this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
    4. Re:Won't work by PeelBoy · · Score: 0

      Southern USA? Give me a fucking break.

      You honestly believe the south is any more bible-thumping than the north?

      I bet we're all hicks and horse riding cowboys down here too huh? All the Mexicans ride donkeys to their roofing jobs?

      You're a moron and the rest of your comment isn't even worth reading.

    5. Re:Won't work by Moraelin · · Score: 1

      In a nutshell, yes, you've explained exactly what I was trying to say. The more person/group X perceives that person Y is trying to change their beliefs, the less inclined they'll be to listen.

      --
      A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  59. So, couldn't you just... by fondomatic · · Score: 1

    Edit the vid, then record it again to eliminate the doctoring "footprints"?

  60. Ruined my weekend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just got a new batch of real amateur porn. I really want to check this pics and my entire collection for fakes but I don't want to ruin the thrill.

    I am typing this with one hand. Sorry for any typos

  61. Compile Program? by FreakinSyco · · Score: 1

    This sounds too cool to be true. I'd love to test this program for myself but unfortunately my compile-foo is very weak. Since the source code for the program is attached to the article can anyone post a short how-to to compile a working example of this program?

    1. Re:Compile Program? by internet+hate+machin · · Score: 1

      1) Save file as jpeqquality.c
      2) gcc -o jpeqquality jpeqquality.c
      3) ./jpequality britney_spears_nude_real!!!!!!.jpg
      4) ???
      5) Profit.

  62. I don't believe his method is sound by Cafe+Alpha · · Score: 1

    Read the description of how the "error rate" was measured. It's bullshit.

  63. Secondary purpose by Odinson · · Score: 1
    They may not even care if the edits were caught. IIRC, there are several ways to detect stenography with the key and they all revolve around detecting altered pictures. If you alter every picture you release but only encrypt messages in some, it may make it harder to determine which ones actually contain information.


    Most people think of the propaganda aspects of altered photographs first. It goes show what we are worried the most about in this country, an army of mindless angry sheeple marching full speed in the wrong direction. We are actually projecting our fears about ourselves onto them. People intuitively know that even a well coordinated Al-Qaeda is a minor threat compared to the damage angry/scared/misguided US voters can do.

  64. ala Westwood by RobDollar · · Score: 1

    Perhaps Al Quaeda actually wanted to achieve the look of the Kane FMV sequences in Command & Conquer.

  65. Re:It doesnt even take aviation fuel to melt steel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It doesn't even take aviation fuel to soften/melt steel: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/ 04/29/BAGVOPHQU46.DTL

  66. Forensic analysis my ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Apparently this guy doesn't understand how DCT compression works. Or he's hoping that no one else does, and that they'll think he's a genius.

    Not only is what he proposes to do impossible (unless he has access to the uncompressed video master, he cannot distinguish source quantization from final video quantization), but what his "custom software" is doing is simply increasing the brightness in areas with high DCT coefficients for high frequencies (which happen wherever there is high contrast, fine detail or pixel noise).

    In other words, he's basically written an "edge detect" filter that operates on the DCT tables. It's what compression experts describe as "DUH!"

    As someone wrote as a comment on the blog, "al-Zawahiri's beard also shows up as "altered". Perhaps secret messages of terror are secluded within the beard. Pogonophobes everywhere should remain vigilant!"

    BTW, the first image in this article is a chroma-key. You don't need any "custom software" to figure that out; just look at the blue spill on his beard. The entire background is fake. It was probably taped in some cave, with a blue background, and then they decided to put him in a "library" to make him look more intellectual. They used a cheap chroma filter, so there's no spill removal.

    The fact that the "custom software" shows only the high-detail parts of the background as "altered" proves that it is nothing but a high-DCT-frequency detector.

    1. Re:Forensic analysis my ass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yes, exactly.

      Look what's happened to slashdot that the posters didn't all come to the obvious conclusion immediately.

      I bet the slashdot crowd of five years ago was more technically aware...

      Someone tell me, what site do the real geeks go to these days?

  67. Oh come on... by SoulRider · · Score: 1

    don't you think if they were really CGI'ing in the background they would have CGI'd the oval office in by now? I mean come on, the current administration would spend weeks trying to find them in the whitehouse.

  68. NOT "videotaped in front of a black sheet" by ofcourseyouare · · Score: 1

    Neal Krawetz may know about image compression, but clearly doesn't know much about shooting video. "most likely videotaped in front of a black sheet"? No way.

    When you shoot chroma key pieces like this video, the video editing software (Avid, Final Cut, whatever) wants to distinguish your blank background from your foreground, so you use a colour that doesn't appear in your forgeground -- usually intense chroma key blue or green, given think most foregrounds include pinkish faces. A black sheet would be a complete non-starter, especially for a guy wearing so much black.

    Once you have done the cutout, decent software will turn any remaining fringes of blue or green into black (or whetever colour you like) so the final result is more pleasing. Look at the very top of Al-Z's turban, and you can see a classic fringe line -- that would have been blue or green before, but the software has made it black. I suggest Mr. Krawetz visit any normal post-production house for a thirty minute intro to shooting chroma key before making more statements of this kind.

    (BTW, interesting though the image compression stuff is, it's not necessary with the al-Zawahiri video -- at a glance, this video has obviously been shot against blue screen or green screen. You can see that the perspective on the background (camera tilted down slightly) is different from that on al-Z (camera tilted up slightly); also Al-z is ever so slightly soft, while the background is completely crisp.)

    1. Re:NOT "videotaped in front of a black sheet" by MightyMait · · Score: 1

      You fall victim to the same hubris you decry.

      Before "Chroma Key", there was something called "Luma Key", which lets one key based on luminance and not color (chroma). In the case of luma key, yes, you would want to shoot in front of a black background.

      --
      Nothing interesting to say...MUST...NOT...REPLY...ohtheheckwithit.
    2. Re:NOT "videotaped in front of a black sheet" by ofcourseyouare · · Score: 1

      Hi there -- I have shot luma key many times, way back in the 90s. For certain subjects it was (and is) quite appropriate. But the key thing (haha) is to have a clear distinction between foreground and background: thus, a man wearing a black turban might just work against a pure white background using luma key -- but you'd spend hours cleaning it up. However, a man wearing a black turban against a black background would be a complete non-starter.

      Thanks for the warning against hubris, though. It's an ever-present threat...

  69. Al Qaeda use Adobe Premier. Wow. Amazing. by jamie(really) · · Score: 1

    If the title was "Forensic Analysis Reveals Al-Qaeda's use of bluescreen to composite video", it wouldn't be quite so shocking. I thought we were going to see fake photo's of george bush eating children or something. I mean, wow, Al Qaeda has access to a laptop with Adobe Premier.

  70. photoshopping vs videoshopping by Jtheletter · · Score: 2, Informative

    Video is still kind of difficult to alter like these photos were, but it's certainly possible for someone with the resources of a government of international organization behind them.

    Although I totally agree with you, I must point out government-level resources are not required to reasonably fake video. Remember the movie Kung Pow? Amazing work done in that film placing modern actors in an old kung-fu flick. The budget was only around $10 million USD, and that was for a complete movie. Imagine how little it would cost to get the same effects for a clip only a few minutes long? A professional studio is all you need to make something convincing enough to fool anyone other than video experts, probably any news studio could do it. Scary, really.

    --
    -- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
  71. Mod Parent Up by inKubus · · Score: 1

    Mod Parent Up, this is true. You really CAN'T trust any imagery or audio or any other information these days. The fact that we base nearly all of our judgements on foreign policy on the NEWS reports, and given the fact that it's so easy to manufacture information, it is an absolute FACT that it is POSSIBLE our entire lives are a fragile but very real illusion perpetuated by another party. Humans are experts at spinning facts, and politicians are literally raised FROM BIRTH to do it. Why wouldn't they spin this? Duh.

    --
    Cool! Amazing Toys.
  72. Normal Bluescreen TV production has same artifacts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you watch the news you will see presenters, reporters and guests 'cut and pasted' against a backdrop such as the city skyline or the newsroom. This is not a new technique, it is a craft that has been attempted in every television studio, usually to get best results on those occasions when the people in front of the camera are not wearing whatever colour the back-drop is. Blue works best for skin tones, however green is a common choice as this does not conflict with jeans, blue shirts and other commonly worn items. Sometimes excess light can be picked up by other colours to make them blue/green, i.e. to be 'keyed out'. Normally a blue-screen engineer will work with the lighting 'spark' to get best results. The person presented as 'Mr Al-Q*eda' is wearing clothes that are easy to key, and with the camera correctly 'racked' there need not be any colour cast, and with a good engineer the 'fine hair detail' can be kept in, making the end results natural in appearance.
    Regarding the back-ground, this always has to be a forgery of sorts. Small artistic decisions are needed to frame the subject. Skyline landmarks can be re-jigged to fit the frame and not conflict with the foreground. Because there is a foreground, i.e. the 'talent', interviewee or supposed propagandist, it is not necessary to have a complete background - why paint the floor if it is not going to be seen?
    If the blue-screen route has been taken, then why spend too much time on a 'real' background? If you had to include ornate script in the background, would you paint it for real or just tweak a stolen image in Photoshop?
    The point is that this promotional material for 'al-qaeda-ology' is no different to mainstream news in that the foreground is pasted against a background - standard production techniques.
    Personally I don't find the photoshop quantisation error stuff particularly convincing. I have my own eyes and I can see the studio lights glaring on the forehead of the subject. These would have been necessary to light the subject if using Bluescreen, potentially using up to 10K watts of tungsten power, if properly key-lighting, back-lighting and fill-lighting the subject. With 'pretty' subjects a make-up artist can apply powder to control the shine of the hot lights on the forehead. The subject could have been shot against black, but he is wearing black, so blue/green would be easier, and likely to produce quicker results.
    What happens to all of this light? We can all remember physics and how 'light gets darker' the further away you are from it. In the background scene there appears to be a desk, however not very much light has fallen on it. It is lit differently to the foreground, and therefore could not have been in the same space at the same time. Of course this could have been an al-qaeda ruse, maybe they wanted to out-wit the intelligence experts by using a telephoto lens and an odd angle on the subject that somehow keeps the backdrop verticals exactly parallel (not diverging).
    The logo in the corner could have been forged by 'al-qaeda' however they could have also used standard production techniques. The 'bug' has an alpha channel and simply gets 'keyed' over, normally by a dedicated box, or just with an extra layer with 'Avid' editing tools.
    If the person that spent so much time and effort on this study with normal news footage studio shots then something might be learned - the pictures are regular TV. As it is there is no 'control' presented and only guesses can be hazarded as to what is supposed to be 'proved'.
    There you have it - almost. The noise levels of the image components will be different in composited images. The background is a computer manipulated still image (or stream of moving images). This might have no noise if it is crudely rendered in CG or altered significantly in Photoshop. Meanwhile, the foreground - from a normal studio camera - will have artifacts of noise introduced by the CCD and any tape medium used to store the pictures until the editing suite is reached. If using an analog studio - as is common -

  73. Bingo! by Lethyos · · Score: 1

    And video is composed of a sequence of...?

    --
    Why bother.
  74. Another Benefit of Open-Source! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    [...] Final Cut Studio and Photoshop make it even easier [....]

    One more reason to use and support F/OSS. Doctoring photographs is so much more difficult with The GIMP.

  75. ANSWER THE QUESTION, MORON by Apuleius · · Score: 1

    You claimed progressive collapse would take 46 seconds. How do you defend that stupid claim?

  76. err who says it was Al-Qaeda? by smash · · Score: 2, Insightful
    ... and not the CIA?

    For all we know, Al-Qaeda doesn't even exist, and the US government has filmed a bunch of gumbies in front of a green screen to put out the new terror video to remind you that you're supposed to be scared, and that the next new law that takes away your freedoms is really needed...

    Please... given the possible motives behind 9/11, the amount of dodgy claims that defy the laws of physics, etc... I'd be taking any news about terrorism fed to you with a big serving of salt.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    1. Re:err who says it was Al-Qaeda? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm amazed that after so many responses only one person managed to rub two brain cells together and doubt the U.S. government. It's a bit sad, actually.

  77. Re:But Al-Qaeda doesn't exist... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It still amazes me that Slashdotters in general still seem to support the "official 9/11 story".

    WTC7 fell straight down with remarkable symmetry at near free fall speeds. This is completely consistent with a controlled demolition hypothesis, and completely inconsistent with asymmetric fire and debris damage.

    Anyone who can't admit that after reviewing the observational evidence is an idiot, or in a state of psychological denial.

  78. I think by tacokill · · Score: 1

    I think it's clear he has - at a minimum - "left the reservation", don't you think?

    Look, I see the CIA link and yes, it appears to be true. So be it. The CIA funds all kinds of bad people at various times. Always has, always will. But, if you are suggesting that the CIA is still actively encouraging Bin Laden and his ilk, then I think you are a nut.

    Is that what you are suggesting? If so, it really doesn't pass the smell test and probably falls in the "kooky conspiracy" category. But if not, then my apologies. I jumped the gun. Please explain.

  79. Helloooo Slashdot -- wake up! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, this implies one could determine the SOURCE of any digital picture (taken by a camera) in the world. Even when recompressed with JPG?

    That is incredible. Why isn't THAT the story here.

    Ok, I can see some of you are missing it. Put this ability together with our old story about printers and all of a sudden, one more tactic to anonymously publish is gone. This cuts both ways.

  80. please by roesti · · Score: 1

    I are serious Islamic fundamentalist. This is serious thread.

    We r plotting to take back mah bukket.

  81. Yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    You would think the 90's would've have caught up to the terrorists by now but instead it's like Max Headroom reruns all over again. Oh Channel 4, those were the days...

    I guess we do have 4chan to take it's place...

  82. WTF? by normuser · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    It won't work. If just having the means to prove something were actually enough to convince the faithful... well, how do you explain the southern USA?

    It's not just a jab at the fine bible-thumping guys and gals down there, though. It happens the same everywhere. Europe had its own counter-enlightenment movement, waaaay back. As in, a couple of centuries back. That's really what happens when you assault someone's beliefs hard enough: he'll just switch to block-head mode.


    How the fuck did this blatant troll get modded +5 Insightful?
    Why dont you come on down south and I`ll show you "block-head mode".
    --
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  83. OMG conspiracy 9/11!!!!11!!!! by Shihar · · Score: 1

    The logical fallacy is "Al qaeda edited these videos" ... perhaps it should be stated as "Al qaeda videos have been edited" ... you have no idea WHO actually edited them.

    Not that I'm pointing fingers or anything. ahem (wag the dog) OMG!!! You found the evil conspiracy! Before Al-Jazera gets their hands on the latest juicy tidbits from Al-Qaeda, the CIA magically teleports away the video and edits them. They don't edit the speech... oh no... the CIA is far too shifty for that. They edit the background and then pass it on to Al-Jazera without ANYONE EVER KNOWING. Why you ask??!?!?!?! Because you can't hide the 9/11 truth!!!1!!!! ...

    Either that, or Al-qaeda really does edit their own videos so that a US analyst doesn't see something in the background and decide to see what a few thousand pound bombs or a few army rangers can do to the place. Seeing as how these are propaganda videos that are not exactly going out to the most technologically discriminating of audiences, sprucing up the scene a little and putting it in a location more exciting than a dank basement is not a bad idea. If some world government comes out and points out that it has been doctored, it isn't like the people watching it are going to believe them or care.

    I know screaming OMG conspiracy scores karma points on Slashdot, but could we at least mull over the inane conspiracy theories just a little bit before posting them? I am not saying that your conspiracy theory has to be true, but maybe it should at least make a small scrap of sense.
  84. WTC7 COLLAPSE *SYMMETRY* IS THE SMOKING GUN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where [WTC7's] vertical supports were devasted by lateral-moving wreckage from the tower next door, and little things like generator fuel tanks got nicely peppered by red-hot debris, sparking electrical equipment (including huge battery backups in data facilities in the building). Again: that buidling wasn't designed to stand with important pieces of its central supporting structure weakened. Of COURSE if fell in on itself. What would be amazing would be if it fell any other way.

    There is absolutely nothing in your WTC7 explanation (or FEMA's, or NIST's, or Pop Mech's "Debunking" crap), that can even begin to explain the SYMMETRY, or CONSTANT ACCELERATION (PDF, 5 pages) observed in WTC7's collapse.

    ASYMMETRIC fire and structural damage is completely inconsistent with a SYMMETRIC collapse.

    It is however, 100% consistent with a controlled demolition hypothesis, as is the observed constant vertical acceleration.

    The number of industry experts willing to go on the record that the official 9/11 story is not scientifically sound grows daily.

    Recommended reading: Debunking 9/11 Debunking. Pop Mech's "Debunking 9/11 Myths" is a children's book by comparison.