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Pico-ITX, Because Size Matters
An anonymous reader writes "It's not every day that a new form factor comes out, especially not one that is 10cm x 7.2cm. Despite its size, Pico-ITX is the hottest new thing in the rapidly changing small form factor market. It is considerably smaller than Mini-ITX (17cm x 17cm) which has proven itself to be quite versatile and though some sacrifices had to be made to shrink the platform, Pico-ITX is surprisingly complete. The system was tested with Feather Linux but the PX10000 has the power to run Windows XP or Ubuntu if you want to add on a hard drive."
And like so many VIA boards it is almost impossible to get them, or get them at a reasonable price (reasonable 2 * list price).
All my ex girlfriends told me size DIDN'T matter. Of course, they'd dump me the same day... So this is news because size really does matter now?
I'm in trouble cause i'm not 10cm x 10cm.
From TFA: A full-sized ATX motherboard is 12 x 9.6 (305mm x 244mm) and Mini-ITX is 17cm x 17xcm
That's nice and clear, don't you think?
one would think they could keep it right in the article. The board is 10 cm x 7.2 cm - but they list it in the paragraph right before the second picture as mm instead of cm. i was going to comment on it there, but i'm not signing up for an account there just to do that.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
They're a complete waste of time and money. Unless of course you literally want a SFF system in the worst way -- with windows.
So it might be practical in embedded applications where the size matters (that thing is so small, incredible). But for those things, having a fan is big downer! Fan means: can break down, means: will break down, means: maintenance costs! Will there be a fanless version?
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
The Invisible Computer.
Add a radio card, an outdoor enclosure, and an antenna, and this might make a good access point that has a little more horsepower than your average AP.
I wonder if Mikrotik will run on it? I think it should...
Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
... then I think I would try Gumstix for non-speed critical apps.
Or add a few gigabit Ethernet ports and use it as a firewall. Has anyone used a VIA C7 system in this way? If so, I'd be interested in how well it's worked, and if it introduces any significant latency or limits bandwidth.
What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
Add a 500GB hard drive, NVIDIA GeForce 8800, 5.1 channel speaker system, and use it as your gaming machine!
I wonder if I use bold in my signature, people will notice my posts.
I'm no expert and I know this thing is tiny, but aren't laptop motherboards already pretty small? The motherboards in some of those tiny Sony Vaios must not be much bigger than this thing, and thinner too - and they've been around for a few years now.
A-Bomb
It's not every day that a new form factor comes out, especially not one that is 10cm x 7.2cm.
Just as a basis of comparison, a typical full-height PCI card measures 15.5cm[*] x 9.5cm (not counting the external dangly bits or the actual PCI connector), making this entire motherboard half the area of most graphics cards.
Or to put it another way, a laptop HDD measures 10cm x 7cm, making this MB just a hair bigger (Too close to call coincidence, I suspect Via chose the size based on that exact match).
Not bad, as long as you need no expansion capability.
*) They can actually get longer than that, I have an ancient one measuring 19cm long, but a quick glance at my box-o-obsolete-PC-parts shows 15.5 as the most common size for full-height cards).
Now, if they could just work a Y2K bug in there somewhere...
Seriously, you just egged that one on.
Femto-ITX?
(Personally I'm waiting for yocto-ITX)
If there's a way to add TV tuner capability to it (I guess it would have to be via USB), I was thinking ultra-small MythTV box. It's certainly powerful enough for SD content, and I like the MPEG2/4 hardware decoding.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
This would make an excellent MythTV frontend.. Flash-based OS or Net-Boot. Small size, VGA or DVI output.
The 1GHz VIA C7 would not handle HD decoding on its own.. it's not fast enough.
But, the Unichrome features an MPEG2 decoder which offloads the CPU so that even the C7 could handle HD playback.
The question is: Is the version of the Unichrome GPU in this thing HD capable? Unfortunately, most of the Unichrome GPUs are limited to 1024x1024, which is obviously not going to cut it for HD.
Go to damn small linux and at the store:
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/store/
The robot overlords tell me they need something smaller for the obedience-chip brain implants they have planned for humankind.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
What I want is something that I can use as a MythTV frontend (or something similar), that is small, looks cool, uses very little power, is capable of playing HD video streams, and most importantly IS 100% passively cooled!
I have yet to find anything that meets those requirements. Sure, a few things like the Mac Mini come close, but I want something that does not make any noise at all. I've already got a super quiet mini-atx PC that hardly makes a sound at all and is buried inside a cabinet and it STILL drives me crazy.
Bryan
this mobo can be fit on the original japanese pc engine?
From Via's technical brief.
i tiatives/spearhead/pico-itx_form_factor.pdf
VIA VT6047 Pico-ITX mainboard reference design has been specifically developed to
be powered by the energy efficient VIA processor platforms, such as the VIA C7 or
fanless VIA Eden processor.
Slimline 30W Power Supply
Enables fanless silent PC designs due to its low heat characteristics
Reduces overall system costs
Enhances reliability
It does have a fan connector if needed.
http://www.via.com.tw/en/downloads/whitepapers/in
Where Are They Now? Episode 205:
Captain Obvious, the washed up superhero, now works writing hardware reviews.
I hate printers.
Why are these things always mentioned as possible solutions for a silent PC? They are NOT PC's. PC's are powerfull and can handle a ton of storage and are easily expanded. These things are not.
No I do NOT question the usefullness of these things for certain tasks, but if you want a full PC that is 100% silent, might I offer a different solition instead? It too involves size.
Make your case big. The simplest way to prevent noise from inside a PC reaching your ears is to use thick walls, and to force the sound to take the long way out. An even simpler solution is to use the layout of your house to put even more distance between you and the PC. My own PC is standing on the balcony, the wires going through the wall. Outside it sits in a thick wooden casing, with it basically having a small case at the bottom that sucks air in from the front and back and up into the main casing were I have put the PC itself (in my own layout) and then a similar case up above that blows the air out. The two fan cases force the air around several walls to break up the soundwaves.
Result, soundless operation, I already picked quiet fans and the sound walls hide even their small amount of noise coupled with tremenedous cooling with no sacrifice on the components used for the PC itself. Regular Core 2 Duo, regular memory, and far too many HD's to hold all my porn eh business data.
While this mini-boards occasionally tempt me, I always end up with the simple fact that they just don't have the raw power I would need. Take using it as a movie player, how the hell are these things supposed to do highdef? That can bring a fullsize system to its knees? As for who would want to use a desktop with less then 2 gigs of memory, do you like pain? (2 gigs is a bit of overkill perhaps for linux but I hate swapping. Swapping means the terrorists have won!)
So nice board, intresting and all, but IF you are thinking about wanting a silent PC, consider instead in using regular hardware but an un-regular encasing. Size indeed matters and trying to make a 2mm thin metal encasing silent is doing things the hardway. 22mm wood, with isolation that is what makes a manly PC. Leave the tiny pc's for the japanese.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
The Geode development boards have been around for many years, are a bit smaller than this thing, are lower power, and can include CPUs that will absolutely run rings around the 1GHz Via C7, while running fanless.
To this day, I don't see why VIA's CPUs have gotten so popular in the small space. There have always been many other CPUs from both Intel and AMD that can outperform them, with much lower power requirements.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
shouldn't the sequence be more like: mini, micro, nano, pico, atto...?
this thing STILL has those !@#% PS2 keyboard and mouse connectors -- ugh. any small motherboard that still wastes circuitry for PS2 connectors for keyboard (instead of USB keyboard and mouse) is less desirable (imho).
once you add up the costs of the REQUIRED USB Optical Drive, adding the IDE drive, its not so far to the mac mini -- which certainly has better graphics performance. if you get a used mac mini -- price should be within range.
| Despite the size, the specifications make it clear that the ITX motherboard
| has a full range of connections, including DVI, VGA, ethernet, four USB ports,
| two PS/2 connections and more.
we do not want a 'full range' of connectors -- because anything that wastes circuitry
for PS2 connections on a pico size board is a dodo (imo).
we DO NOT WANT: IDE, PS/2 or VGA connectors cluttering up our motherboard.
they duplicate functions already better achieved with: SATA, USB, and DVI.
we want as few ports as possible and still be able to achieve any function.
so, what ARE the desireable ports?
-USB 2.0 (four ports)
- SATA (two ports)
- DVI (with optional VGA header)
- SODIMM Slot for RAM (two)
- ethernet (10/100/1000)
- optional 802.11g/n
that's it -- no extra ones besides that.
get the bios working so it can boot with those,
and drop the legacy cruft.
j
'Everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler' (Einstein)
I need a new mobo for this cool wrist watch I'm designing...
I picked up a Mini-ITX for use as a MythTV box a few years ago. It was an EPIA Nehemiah M10000, and from the day I started using it all I had were problems. Do a search for VIA EPIA and DMA and you'll see what I mean. They released several flash updates for the BIOS, but they never seemed to fix the actual problem. Maybe they did finally figure out the issue, but if they did, they never told the user community.
The feature set was nice. Built in MPEG2 decoder, 5.1 audio, ethernet and 3D acceleration. But the constant hardware lock-ups made the machine unusable. Finally, it started rebooting more and more often, and then just died.
There are a ton of other manufacturers of SFF machines out there, my suggestion is to purchase from a company that will support you after they sell you a machine.
Also look at the Acer-Power 1000 which is in the mac-mini size range (about 1500cc vs about 1200cc).. It's cheap, comes with Windows(some folks like or need it) and runs Linux.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
They're x86 boards compatible with PCs. Big (ahem) difference.
Me, I'd imagine these would get the most use in industrial control. Medical equipment, highly interactive process control with lots of graphics. Stuff like that. Or maybe for a home-PC type application that you don't ever intend to upgrade. Like a MAME cabinet or a homebrew router or something like that.
They're useful, and it's great engineering...but yeah, not really a PC even though you could use them as one. Sort of like how if you really try, you can use a hammer to drive screws. Works, but not the best way to go.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
And yes, it runs Linux. =)
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
A basic problem with this thing is that they just bring out the connections to header connectors. So you have all the internal mess of a regular PC, crammed into less space.
It would be more useful in the PC market to have a board with roughly the same footprint as a CD or DVD drive, with all the external connectors on the back edge of the board. Get rid of all those internal jumper cables. If the thing is going to go in a box with a CD or DVD drive, there's not much point in making it smaller than the drive. I realize this is more or less an Intel Mac Mini. At that density, you have to have integrated design of board, packaging, and airflow.
The Mac IIci, over a decade ago, was the first machine to get this right. No internal cables. Even the power supply clicked into the motherboard. The machine was designed for automated assembly, instead of low-wage assembly.
(Let me preface this by mentioning I love big cases and multicore CPU's, so I hear what you are intending to say.)
OK, so the Apple droids have started redefining the language and are trying to make "P.C." mean "the wintel competition of Apple".
BUT
I would like to mention that P.C. is an abbreviation for PERSONAL COMPUTER. Thus, it is a P.C. -IF- it does what a person needs. (maybe word processing, surfing and astrix?)
I think the board is not really intended to replace a pc or a mac mini or things like that. It would be a good computer for a robot i think, things like that where the size is just small enough and powerful to instruct a moving device, robot, rc car etc..., also good for a car, I have been thinking of installing a small computer (probably a headless laptop) to have storage for mp3 and movies, this would work as well.
I have found small PSU's. In fact my current case has a PSU that is about 1/3 the size of a regular PSU, if not smaller. I also know they have smaller PSU's.
There are LOTS of cases out for mini-itx that are small too, however I have not been able to find any cases for nano-itx or pico-itx. So where are the cases for pico-itx?
I know that it would probably fix in a mini-itx case, by then why but the pico-itx if I can't get a pico case?
I'd love to take a pico-itx MB and find about a 7" lcd display and case and make a tablet pc or laptop. That would be sweet!
Anyone want to start a business making mini-itx based laptops or tablet computers?
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
Beowulf cluster, anyone?
I use them. They're big in "THIN CLIENTS".
For a project of mine, I need a small data collection PC to be used in the field. I use thin client machines based on the same chip. I pay under $500 for a machine finished nicely with reasonable video, sound, usb, network ports, mini-pci for wifi, and a big heat sink on top. There is no fan in the unit, and it uses flash ram instead of a hard disk. Mine come with 512megs of ram, windows XPe, and 1gb of flash drive for storage. With no moving parts they last a long time, and the use about 20 watts of power rather than about 220 for a typical desktop pc.
They are also available (cheaper) with linux embedded, but in my case the app they run is written for XP and until I have time to re-write it, that's what I need.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
I'm sorry, but when it gets to the point that a standard, 3.5" hard drive is bigger than your motherboard... it may be time to rethink where you're targetting it. I would have shown it next to, for example, a laptop hard drive instead; it might just make more sense.
I agree about the uselessness of ps2 connectors (unless your integrating into an office KVM)
8 2E16812119152
8 2E16822210003
However, once you ad up the cost of a REQUIRED ide/sate to usb adapter (about $30) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N
I know for a fact you have an optical drive you can use for the OS install
and the cost of any SATA hard drive ($40 and up)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N
(if you RTFA you would know that this board uses a 44 pin IDE connector and it states that even with an adapter a regular IDE hard drive WILL NOT WORK)
and the cost of some So DIMM DDR (which you didn't think needed to be mentioned)
However, if cost as an issue, why the hell are you buying a $300 motherboard?
Oh, thats right, so you can make this a MAC argument.
I build, install and maintain solar-powered automated weather stations for use in remote locations.
For me, amp-sucking space-heaters are highly undesirable.
These small systems, with their very low power-consumption, are almost ideal.
They are useful, not only because I can hang weather stations off them, but because authorised people at the sites can use them as general purpose PCs as well.
I've been wanting a Mini/Nano/Pico system for a while now, but there are many problems with VIA:
1. These things are hard to find, and stock is scarce
2. They're ridiculously overpriced, when you consider they're targeted at tinkerers and DIYers
3. No warranty, and no way to fix them if/when they fail because it's 100% custom.
I simply can't think of a non-vanity project that would justify overcoming all those negatives. Far easier and cheaper to go down the ARM route instead.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Like most people working in industrial fields, I need serial ports. Just because you gamers in your parent's basements no longer use them doesn't mean everybody else has ditched them.
One thing that these small boards have to do to make room is stack vertically some of the components.
Is anyone aware of boards that might be a little larger in width and height, but not quite as thick? The thinnest I have seen still have large VGA connectors and Ethernet connectors sitting on them.
The VIA boards are also marketed on their physical size (smart move), where other platforms place more emphasis on other attributes.
There are certainly other options around, but they are either difficult to find (you need to find a distributor in the industrial PC market who will sell single boards) or just too expensive (you are buying from a hobbyist who has imported them from overseas).
It's like the VHS verses Beta war - it's not the quality of your product, but rather the speed at which the market can acquire them (price and availability).
It will be interesting to see if these ever reach the retail space. After VIA released their ITX form factor boards, they announced their NTX sized boards - which I have never seen available for purchase. It will also be interesting to see if their boards have fixed the DMA disk i/o problems as well.
I think a 2.5" HDD will connect to the 44 pin connector on the board, the article implied it was only for compact flash.
Have fun transcoding your HD content to MPEG2. A better solution for your goal would be a real processor or a dedicated IC.
The answer in the short term to the lack of cases for the job is very simple: Lego and superglue.
This has always been an option for any form factor, but of course it quickly becomes impractical as Lego does not scale all that well when strength is a concern. With a motherboard this size though, the hard drive or optical drive are going to be the constraint on how small the case can be.
Another viable option is to use a case designed for an optical drive. Once the supplied electronics are gutted (and possibly used elsewhere), it should be possible to shoehorn this board, a 3.5" drive, and a slimline optical drive in there. All you'd have to hack would be the front and back panels, which is pretty trivial with Lexan and a rotary tool.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
Indeed, the Gamecube's about the size of this board, has a DVD drive that you can apparently get to work with normal discs, has Linux ported to its PowerPC CPU (which is probably about as powerful as a 1Ghz Via) and is ridiculously cheap. Granted, running Linux on a Gamecube isn't exactly a corporate solution, but Nintendo (or more realistically, IBM) could theoretically repackage a "server" version of the Wii and make a bigger impact than this "yet-another-x86" board.
>keyboard and mouse connectors
Why wouldn't you want to be able to connect a mouse and keyboard to a computer?
Our new crappy servers from Dell are so cheap that they don't have a place to plug in a keyboard, like what you describe. We have to swap harddrives around whenever there is a problem. It makes fixing the many problems with Windows 2003 take much longer to fix than if you could simply plug in a keyboard. I will never buy a computer w/o a keyboard port.
> Have fun transcoding your HD content to MPEG2. A better solution for your goal would be a real processor or a dedicated IC
Huh? The U.S. broadcast standard for digital TV is MPEG2. So, ALL the HD content on my MythTV system is already MPEG2.
Has anyone seen or used this: http://www.jadeintegration.com/jackpc.php I'm looking for some very small form-factor/low-power boards for some embedded work and stumbled upon this.
"Cats are just autistic Dogs" -- Dr. Tony Attwood